Various and Sundry

Are Protesters Fungible?

One of the things you hear whenever violence emerges from an otherwise peaceful protest is “they don’t represent us” or “they weren’t protesters, they were just hanging around”. Aren’t the organizers of a protest responsible for the outcome of a protest? And if the protest has no formal organizer maybe we’re off to a bad start to begin with.

Two cops got shot during a Ferguson protest. The suspect in custody claims that he was actually trying to shoot someone else, not the cops (there’s some consolation for you). If the environment surrounding a protest is so fundamentally volatile, perhaps protective measures need to be taken, such as limiting protest to daylight hours.

Bottom line: I’m not so disposed anymore to letting protesters off the hook when someone among them breaks bad.

The End of the Movement

Several months ago at least one of my bar patrons remarked that “movements” are self perpetuating and resistant to termination. I was reminded of this when I watched this week’s Face the Nation. Host Bob Schieffer asked two representatives of the increasingly irrelevant NAACP why protests were still going on in Ferguson when the verdict on rampant institutional racism was in, was damning and was being addressed. The answer was that there was still work to be done. Maybe there is but when will we know the work is done?

How will we know when the civil rights movement has succeeded? When all white folks like black folks? When all discrimination has ended? How do we know when discrimination has ended? How do we know when a man is treated poorly because he’s black or because he’s an asshole? As long as folks have different skin color won’t the doubt always be there?

If we could set some metric that tells us the goals of civil rights have been reached, what would that mean for those whose life work (and compensation) depend on getting justice for the aggrieved? No more aggrieved people, no more movement, no need for the advocates.

Do goalposts move in order to perpetuate the movement? Can any movement be immune to organizational self preservation?

If Words Matter, They Matter for Everyone

The frat Sigma Alpha Epsilon is in hot water for one of its chapters being caught on tape singing racist chants with references to lynching and the N word. A side note has arisen from the national conversation on this but it’s an important side note.

Over the past 30 or so years, billions of dollars have been made by ignorant blacks rapping and singing N-this and N-that. How did this ever come to pass? Why was the outrage when the first “nigga-song” was produced insufficient to nip the whole thing in the bud?

How can we expect whites to treat us with respect when we self denigrate for profit?

Not Ready for Hillary

Finally some thoughts on email-gate. As the liberal media turns up the volume on the laugh track, the facts point to no laughing matter.

1) Clinton violated standards set by the administration and applied to her subordinates.
2) Clinton thinks we are idiots. She made this about “devices” but we all know multiple email accounts can be accessed from a single device. Her “convenience” argument is an insult to our intelligence. Besides when have any of you been able to tell your boss that convenience trumps company standards?
3) We have no proof that she turned over all work related materials before leaving her post. If she signed exit papers that, equivalent to being under oath, claim that she did, when she did not, then she actually committed a felony.
4) The campaign has not yet started and already we have scandal. This is par for the course. An HRC administration will be immersed in scandals, real and invented, on a regular basis.

It’s high time we had a woman president but Hillary is not that woman.

What do you think? The bar is open.

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588 thoughts on “Various and Sundry

  1. A friend’s uncle is dying and I was reading as I talked to her. I may have missed something. At first glance, i don’t have much to add.

    Yes, protests can become self perpetuating as leaders begin to profit from the demonstrations. In the recent cases, Ferguson apparently has some real racial problems, but they are separate from the shooting.

    Agenda-driven people have encouraged potential violence with “Hands up don’t shoot” nonsence. They have blended real bigotry with specific cases like the shooting, not out of high mindedness but to hurt the side they oppose and to gain credibility for themselves. That includes reporters, politicians and sports figures who posed with their arms raised. They capitalize on anything which makes them look like paragons of virtue because they care. They are vultures circling around the sky as they wait for the next event to help themselves and hurt their apparent enemies.

    Hillary has long since reached her expiration date, and the stench will become overpowering.

  2. “It’s high time we had a woman president”

    And eight years ago it was “It’s high time we had a black president”
    Me thinks it’s high time we had a president regardless of race or gender who is competent to be POTUS.

    “Over the past 30 or so years, billions of dollars have been made by ignorant blacks rapping and singing N-this and N-that.:

    WOW, that was an excellent point you made Rutherford.

    “Are Protesters Fungible?”

    They probably already are. Just like mercenaries, there are those for hire.

    Your Various and Sundry remarks all point to “profit” be it power or money

  3. “Hillary has long since reached her expiration date, and the stench will become overpowering.”

    James that comment is priceless 😆 😆

  4. Protesters are for hire, just like mercenaries as James said. Crisis actors are also on the government’s payroll. Hillary is pure evil. I bet she has to file her pointed horns and fangs daily. I guess I should have posted the Carlin vid in this thread for the ‘words matter’ subject since it applies here too.

  5. Bottom line: I’m not so disposed anymore to letting protesters off the hook when someone among them breaks bad.
    Good for you !
    Do goalposts move in order to perpetuate the movement? Can any movement be immune to organizational self preservation?
    Yes and not likely. The only way you get away from the perpetual movement is to have it be very focused and have it achieve its goal relatively quickly.
    How can we expect whites to treat us with respect when we self denigrate for profit?
    a) You can’t b) You can’t be taking seriously when you come out so aggrieved by an incident like this either. An incident that mathematically is highly unlikely to have come to the eyes and ears of the aggrieved without purposeful malice on behalf of others. In this case the race hustlers and campus micro-aggressions crowds. You also kind of lose creed when your Greek life is often times militant and undeniably racist in its own right.
    As for HRC I’ll echo Raji comment that lets just get a qualified one. HRC is unqualified hands down. Criminal,liar and divisive.

  6. From the previous thread: my answer to one of G’s comments.

    But hey, Cotton’s a traitor, and apparently a terrorist too…

    Naah, Cotton is neither traitor nor terrorist. He’s an idiot. Hopefully he enjoys being the new Ted Cruz, eager to make his mark, no matter how foolish he looks in the process.

  7. Raji and Alfie clearly I agree gender should not be a qualifying factor in the next election. We want the best candidate, period.

    BUT it doesn’t speak well of our country that so many others have chosen female heads of state and we have not. We look like knuckle draggers.

    Still, if HRC is the only way to get there I’ll wait another 8 years.

  8. On a more serious note can you list three female leaders that exemplify what you’re looking for ?
    I say three ‘cuz I can only get to two and even then there are hang-ups.

  9. Alfie, where I am stumped is a female leader with strong FP chops. Condi Rice comes to mind. She also bears herself with the dignity befitting a POTUS.

    Beyond that, I’m at a loss. Carly Fiorina has only failure in her recent resume and besides, she makes me puke.

    How did you get to two?

  10. Question for the group but particularly for Alfie, Huck and Gorilla. Where did we go wrong with North Korea? NK is cited as the number 1 precedent AGAINST making a deal with Iran.

    Is it just too hard to do proper inspections? Did we not apply sanctions to North Korea? I don’t get how we sign a deal and then surprise, surprise they launch a test nuke years later.

  11. Apparently Rand Paul has suggested he was helping the POTUS by signing the 47 Senator letter to the ayatollah.

    This got me thinking how funny it would be if this was all one big masquerade. Obama calls McConnell and says “Hey Mitch, I can’t shake this rep as the worlds bitch. Do me a favor. Have one of your guys write a letter to the Supreme Leader so he figures that even if I’m his bitch, I’ve got some hardass nutjobs at home that won’t let me wimp out on this. I’ll act surprised and outraged when the letter gets released.”

    “Oh and Mitch could you send me another bottle of that good bourbon?”

  12. “I was going international picking Merkel and Thatcher”-A

    “Holy shit! You had to go overseas and into the grave to find someone?”-R

    That’s a pretty sad state of affairs isn’t it? Condi Rice did come to mind and if she had run eight years ago we could have gotten race and gender off the books. Apparently she saw the writing on the wall.

    Rutherford are you becoming a conspiracy theorist also 😆

  13. Since it is St. Patrick’s Day, I suggest another woman from the grave–Boudica.

    She was not Irish, but her ethnic heritage would give her about as much claim to Irish relatives as Elizabeth Warren’s claim to membership in an Indian tribe.

  14. R I’m talking female pols with cred and clout. I suppose Meir,and Bhutto could count. I dont see our crop of Elosi,Boxer,Haley and Ayotte being capable at the same level.

  15. I know folks find Iran irrational but The Land of Kim is truly in its own world.
    NK is just too closed and surreal to be trusted. I think Iran is somewhat more open and more in tune with relations with others. I think Iran would abide by a treaty to the extent China and Russia expects them to.

  16. So my question would be does the lack of a OF-109 rebound on HRC or on the State dept? To put it another way, shouldn’t someone at the state dept be fired for not ensuring the exit was performed according to procedure?

  17. You thought wrong. I just found it incredibly funny that only conservative outlets covered it at the time that G and Muffy tossed it around. I was laughing at where you guys get your news.

    Alas, the laughs on me because the venues I frequent SHOULD have been on this from day 1.

    You guys have been telling me how badly skewed my sources (particularly MSNBC) are and I must confess this email thing is exhibit #1.

  18. Re: the Sig Eps:

    They have a right to be assholes. The university has a right not to sanction it, which is why I’m ok with them being gone.
    That said, the expulsion violated the kid’s First Amendment rights, and I hope he sues them blind for it, especially considering the crap coming out of the mouths of great cultural figures such as Azailia Banks.

  19. And if the protest has no formal organizer maybe we’re off to a bad start to begin with.

    The protests did have organizers. They just happen to keep claiming that they have nothing to do with the outcome. In fact, I’m pretty sure one of those organizers used his bully pulpit to call the shooter a “punk”.

    If the environment surrounding a protest is so fundamentally volatile, perhaps protective measures need to be taken, such as limiting protest to daylight hours.

    But that would defeat the purpose of the protests. 15 minutes of hate need firelight to be properly appreciated.

  20. If we could set some metric that tells us the goals of civil rights have been reached, what would that mean for those whose life work (and compensation) depend on getting justice for the aggrieved?

    Jesse Jackson will “cut your nuts off”, and Al Sharpton will have to pay his taxes.

    Seriously, though, you do realize that it isn’t just the greviance pimps and the race hustlers who have an interest in this, right?

    Like the neverending “War on Poverty”, there are government programs and agencies erected for the sole purpose of continually making sure that division exists, so they can “fix” or “cure” it, not to mention social purpose groups, and “diversity” trainers and officers all across the public and private landscape who make a very good living by continuing to find racism and other -isms and -phobias with which to scold the rest of us about, not to mention those who wouldn’t otherwise be qualified to hold the lofty positions they command if filling those positions was done according to merit, and not the fulfillment of not even a dreaded quota, but the now more nebulous and self-serving standard of “diversity”.

    I doubt we’ll see an end to the “movement” in my lifetime, even as the current pecking order of victimhood that the Left relies on for it’s power gets shuffled with increasing latino populations, and, of course, the LGBTQUILTBAG lobby.

  21. BiC it’s a stretch to call Eric Holder a protest organizer. Come on.

    As for one of your other comments, yes our strange racial climate does make it hard to discern who thinks Obama is merely an asshole vs a BLACK asshole.

    The question is will we ever get to the point as a society where this confusion ceases to exist.

  22. As for one of your other comments, yes our strange racial climate does make it hard to discern who thinks Obama is merely an asshole vs a BLACK asshole.

    I submit that for the purposes of the few people his skin color matters to, aside from the racists who voted FOR him because of it, they genuinely don’t care that he’s an asshole, and may not have even noticed.

  23. “You guys have been telling me how badly skewed my sources (particularly MSNBC) are and I must confess this email thing is exhibit #1.”

    The White House decided that the Office of Administration no longer has to comply with any Freedom of Information Act requests.

    This is pretty much the only White House office that actually [i]had[/i] to comply with Freedom of Information Act requests.

    This is also the office that deals with archiving White House emails.

    The White House announced this decision on–get this–National Freedom of Information Day.

    As the heat gets turned up on Lois Lerner and Hillary Clinton’s email activity, it’s obvious that Barack Obama is concerned that his nothing-burgers might end up a bit—over-cooked.

  24. Netanyahu in, Obama proven feckless again.

    And he’s throwing Hillary under the bus.

    Hmmmm. Time for a racial issue to get Ol’ Rutherford and his ilk fired up.

  25. “You guys have been telling me how badly skewed my sources (particularly MSNBC) are and I must confess this email thing is exhibit #1.”

    Ha. Competing with The Onion?

    Try exhibit, #1,023,543.

  26. I certainly wish to give thanks to my Dear Leader Obama for interjecting himself into Israeli politics and assuring that the West still has one true representative.

    Muwahahahahahahahaha…

    Otherwise, pretty good article bartender. Shame your writing can’t translate to voting correctly.

    I guess you do read my emails more than I thought – since I assume you were referring to my point of the self-perpetuating grievance hustling.

  27. The World According to Xenocrates, a black man explained why white people rule the world. They have the most noticeable physical mutations of any other race. Whites, though genetically homogenous look so different some of them might be classified as different races. The mutations are scars of horredous conditions which killed many early white people. This deadly environment selected for survivors able to take advantage of changes and opportunities with a murderous instinct to hold them.

    “I’ve had Asian friends complain about the invasion of China by the west when China uses a system of government white men invented. Its the same way how black folks complain that racism inhibited black people, even though they don’t have to worry about yellow fever and are earning six figure salaries in white run companies. The hypocrisy is hilarious to say the least, since China owes its wealth to America and Africans living in the west are not as poor.

    White people have reformed our thinking and given us the ability to think about things in a wholly different way. It is not surprising that our education systems, our governments, our politics, our clothing, the technology we use the sports we play, many of our cultural idiosyncrasies and much of the music we love is largely based on European standards.

    …”Its not by hyprocracy that the playing field isn’t level Its by necessity. All races needed to evolve out of their barbarism. Whites simply did it first.”

    Our ancestors invented a social and economic system which benefits the majority of our people. Minorities like some blacks refuse to adopt the attitudes and values most inducive to success. Liberals have adopted values which benefit only a few, and they have infected their world view on some blacks.

    The natural instinct of community organizers like Obama is destroying our minority communities, and endangering our world. Most people don’t buy what they are selling. The voters refused to recognize the wonder of Obama and voted for BiBi. Obama’s failures are part of minority failure on a smaller scale. Obama stews in a fit of pique, while blacks riot against un equal outcomes they helped create.

    Some black children are teased for “thinking white.” Even worse, many feel inferior to whites when they are not, More should do adopt proven values and Obama should think conservative.

  28. And he’s throwing Hillary under the bus.

    Of course. She forgot her place in the pecking order of victimhood.

    The real tragedy is that if she really is unmade this time (and I’ll believe it when I see it), it will be because the Left allowed her to be taken down, and not the latest revelations in a trail of scandals and dead bodies that would automatically disqualify her from any serious consideration by anyone whose head doesn’t occupy bizarre world, or think that “it’s a woman’s TURN”

  29. BiC, if Hillary is “unmade” it’s because Don Obama had her whacked. His cult of personality mafia would line up behind her and engage in the usual dishonest dem campaigns if he tapped the side of his nose.

    Time for the GOP to shut the fuck up and enjoy watching the dems eat their own for once.

    Oh, and yawn at whatever racial/ethnic strife Obama’s consiglieries try to instigate following the Israeli elections.

  30. Did you miss me, twit? 🙂 I thought that was rather funny. Probably not – one less critical voice dogpiling you.

    I see where Supreme Sycophant Imam Huck’s religion of moderates mowed down dozens more today in the name of love. Hooray for the Ayatollah!

  31. “Arabs coming out in droves”

    Yeah real good Bibi. Imagine if Romney or McCain said “blacks coming out in droves”.

    So did Bibi show his real bigot colors when up against the wall? Damn! I was so hoping he would lose.

  32. So did Bibi show his real bigot colors when up against the wall? Damn! I was so hoping he would lose.

    Yes, ignore the Obama retainers, public and private, who were there spending great gobs of money, some of it taxpayer money, to “get out that vote”.

    Yeah real good Bibi. Imagine if Romney or McCain said “blacks coming out in droves”.

    Yeah, because blacks suround the country, and threaten its very existence, while also serving in this country’s legislature whlle having sworn dedication to the idea of destroying the country.

    False equivalence much?

  33. The Arabs he was using to fear monger are his own fucking citizens. So you’re the one making false equivalences.

    It’s worth mentioning that Israeli Christians are also called “Arabs”. Israel is such a shining beacon of democracy that they have ongoing debates as to whether or not call the Arab Christians something other than “Arab” so that way they can get some rights the other “Arabs” don’t get.

    Now why would such a great democracy need a special designation for rights? Shouldn’t rights be equal to all citizens?

    “while also serving in this country’s legislature whlle having sworn dedication to the idea of destroying the country.”

    You got anything to back that up? Something like a political platform or speech from one of the Israeli Arab parties?

    While I don’t like the idea of foreign intervention in elections, I also don’t like the floor of our congress being used for campaigning in foreign elections, either.

    Bibi also poisoned the well by stating he will never allow a 2-state solution on his watch. Of course, everyone already knew that–but to actually say it is something else.

  34. Hey Imam Huck? What rights do those nasty Joos have in your beloved countries of the Religion of Peace? Hmmm….

    Must be hard for you to balance the feckless Obama with your shared kinship of Jew hatred, hey? 😈

  35. Bill Kristol has probably done more to undermine America than everyone on team Bobo. His demonic bud Bibi is even worse and only cares about what we can do for him and Israhell. Bibi has said,

    “America is something that can easily be moved.”

    All our ‘representatives’ trip over themselves trying to be the biggest suckup whenever he visits dc. The man has a purpose, but NEVER advocates peace.

    Thirty-six years have passed, and Ben Nitay changed his name, changed his profession, changed where he lives, but has not changed his opinion. He still believes the Palestinians do not deserve a state. He still cannot imagine limiting their birthrate or transferring them. He has, in practice, fulfilled the dream of the binational state. And he still does not know how to solve the paradox between the terrifying reality he has created and the idea of a Jewish state he worships. That is the nature of paradoxes. They follow only the rules of logic, not the basic laws of the Jewish state. They do not do what Netanyahu tells them to do – even if Sara throws shoes at them.

    And now Israel is a state that is not democratic and not Jewish, without equal human rights and civil rights for Arabs. That’s how it is: A paradox that will destroy even the finest theory in the world.

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.627904

  36. “What rights do those nasty Joos have in your beloved countries of the Religion of Peace?”

    Notice how the relativism is all good when we’re discussing Israel? It’s okay to be wrong, as long as you’re less wrong than someone else. Right and wrong instantly become relative terms–because that is the only way to defend the indefensible.

    Now would you care to comment on the current topic, which is the rights of minorities in Israel? Or is deflection as good as it’s going to get?

  37. Tex you make zero sense.

    It only doesn’t make sense when the debate opponent holds the same blind spots – that would be you. Perhaps you should examine the comment I responded to about false equivalency, dumb shit? I know that’s asking a lot from you.

    Speaking of the King of False Equivalency while complaining about “Arab” rights in Israel, I wonder if Huck could explain to me why Jews are not just less privileged but barred in Saudi Arabia – home to the religion of peace? Seems to me the charges of moral relativism hold no water in the case of comparison, does it not?

    Poolman’s confusion is self-explanatory.

  38. The man has a purpose, but NEVER advocates peace.

    Yes, I can see why a Jooo hater would want Netanyahu to advocate for peace with these goodwill ambassadors…let’s give them a state!

    Ismail Haniyeh, head of the Hamas administration in the Gaza Strip commenting on the killing of Osama Bin Laden, May 2, 2011

    “We regard this as a continuation of the American policy based on oppression and the shedding of Muslim and Arab blood…We condemn the assassination and the killing of an Arab holy warrior. We ask God to offer him mercy with the true believers and the martyrs.”
    Sermon delivered by ‘Atallah Abu Al-Subh, former Hamas minister of culture, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV, April 8, 2011, translation by MEMRI

    “Whoever is killed by a Jew receives the reward of two martyrs, because the very thing that the Jews did to the prophets was done to him.

    “The Jews are the most despicable and contemptible nation to crawl upon the face of the Earth, because they have displayed hostility to Allah.

    “Allah will kill the Jews in the hell of the world to come, just like they killed the believers in the hell of this world.

    “The Jews kill anyone who believes in Allah. They do not want to see any peace whatsoever on Earth.”
    Statement from Hamas Ministry of Refugee Affairs on U.N. Relief and Works Agency plan to include Holocaust education in the curriculum taught Palestinian refugees, February 28, 2011

    “We cannot agree to a programme that is intended to poison the minds of our children…Holocaust studies in refugee camps is a contemptible plot and serves the Zionist entity with a goal of creating a reality and telling stories in order to justify acts of slaughter against the Palestinian people.”
    Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010

    “The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine.”

    “Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I.”
    Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org

    “We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land…

    “Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. ”
    Hamas leader Mahmoud a-Zahar, Al-Aqsa TV, January 4, 2009

    Hamas “must lay the foundation for a tomorrow without Zionists.”
    Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, December 28, 2008

    “We are stronger, and more determined, and have more will, and we will hold onto our rights even more than before.”
    Hamas leader-in-exile Khaled Mashaal, Damascus, Syria, December 27, 2008

    “This is the time for the third uprising… Resistance will continue through suicide missions.”
    Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, calling for a resumption of suicide attacks on Gaza radio, December 27, 2008

    “Hamas will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood.”
    Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, December 25, 2008

    “Israel will pay a heavy price for its crimes against the Palestinians. Israel’s actions enhance our determination to pursue the path of resistance through all means available. … [Israel is] committing a holocaust as the whole world watches and doesn’t lift a finger to stop it.”
    Leaflet issued by Izzadin Kassam, the armed wing of Hamas, December 25, 2008

    “We won’t succumb to the logic of threats made by the Zionist war criminals. Today we are prepared more than ever to foil any aggression against our people.”
    Hamas leader Ayman Taha, December 22, 2008

    “It is our right as an occupied people to defend ourselves from the occupation by all means possible including suicide attacks.”
    Hamas Spokesman Fawzi Barhum, October 7, 2008; as reported by AFP and other news agencies

    [The economic crisis is the result of] “bad administrative and financial management and a bad banking system put into place and controlled by the Jewish lobby.”

    [The Jewish lobby] “controls the U.S. elections and defines the foreign policy of any new administration in a manner that allows it to retain control of the American government and economy.”
    Dr. Yussuf Al-Sharafi, Hamas representative, April 12, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007

    “…the Jewish faith does not wish for peace nor stability, since it is a faith that is based on murder: ‘I kill, therefore I am’… Israel is based only on blood and murder in order to exist, and it will disappear, with Allah’s will, through blood and Shahids [martyrs].”
    Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007

    “This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation… Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine… Make us victorious over the community of infidels… Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies… Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them.”
    Hamas statement in response to criticism by Al-Qaeda’s Ayman al-Zawahri, March 12, 2007

    “We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine. . . So be assured doctor Ayman, and all those who love Palestine like yourself, that Hamas is still the group you knew when it was founded and it will never abandon its path.”
    Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas spokesman, April 17, 2006

    “[The Tel Aviv suicide bombing] is an an act of self defense… [it is] a natural result of the continued Israeli crimes against our people.”
    Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader, February 3, 2006, Al-Hayyat al-Jedida

    “[Hamas will] never recognize the legitimacy of the Zionist state that was founded on our land.”
    Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader, after casting his vote in the Gaza Strip, January 25, 2006, Ha’aretz

    “[Hamas] will not change a single word in its covenant [which is calling for the destruction of Israel].”
    Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Reuters

    “They have tried to pressure Hamas to abandon resistance and to abandon arms. They tried to pressure Hamas to abandon its strategic choice in Palestine, all of Palestine. They tried to pressure Hamas to recognize the legitimacy of the occupation. But they failed… We say Hamas will not change its constant principles.”
    Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Gulf Daily News, Bahrain

    “The constants and the strategy of Hamas do not change according to circumstances. Hamas will stay faithful to jihad, to resistance, to guns, to Palestine and to Jerusalem.”
    Ismail Hanieh, Hamas leader, January 18, 2006, AP

    “Hamas is not hostile to Jews because they are Jews. We are hostile to them because they occupied our land and expelled our people…. We did not say we want to throw the Jews in the sea or feed them to sharks. We just said that there is a land called occupied Palestine. It was burglarized and it needs to be returned to the Palestinian people.”
    Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader and candidate to the Palestinian legislative council, Palestinian TV, January 17, 2006, Newsday

    “We do not recognize the Israeli enemy, nor his right to be our neighbor, nor to stay (on the land), nor his ownership of any inch of land…. We are interested in restoring our full rights to return all the people of Palestine to the land of Palestine. Our principles are clear: Palestine is a land of Waqf (Islamic trust), which can not be given up.”
    Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu-Zuhri, explains to Al-Sharq al-Awsat that there is no contradiction between Hamas’ platform for the election and its charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel, January 13, 2006, BBC Monitoring

    “The program [of Hamas-backed list to legislative council] sets out the details and means for its implementation over the next four years, while the [Hamas] charter talks about vision and strategy…The movement is adhering to the constants and strategies outlined in the [Hamas] charter.”
    Dr. Mahmoud Zahar, interview in Arabic with elaph.com, October 11, 2005, MEMRI

    “The Taliban are 1,000 times more honorable than the American occupation and its collaborators… We are not a copy of the Taliban… Judge us according to what we are. Everyone must stop blaming the Taliban for things that in fact characterize the people of the West, who seek to turn the international community into a swamp of corruption and destruction, and to spread abomination and disease in the name of absolute freedom….”

    “We are part of Allah’s promise that Islam will enter Palestine and every home in the world, with a revelation of the power of Allah the Omnipotent, and a revelation of the inferiority of the infidels. Hamas is leading this plan in Gaza, the West Bank, and the 1948 territories, and the Muslim Brotherhood is leading it everywhere else. This is part of Allah’s predestination.”
    Sheik Nizar Rayan, Hamas “political” leader, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI

    “The vanquishing of the enemy in Gaza does not mean that this stage has ended. We still have Jerusalem and the pure West Bank. We will not rest until we liberate all our land, all our Palestine. We do not distinguish between what was occupied in the 1940s and what was occupied in the 1960s. Our Jihad continues, and we still have a long way to go. We will continue until the very last usurper is driven out of our land.”

  39. Lines and lines and lines of deflection and relativism.

    Yet, not a single word that has to do with what we are discussing—the rights of minorities in Israel.

    I especially like this one….

    “[The Jewish lobby] “controls the U.S. elections and defines the foreign policy of any new administration in a manner that allows it to retain control of the American government and economy.”

    Bibi fear mongering about Israeli Arabs–a minority that makes up 20%–coming to vote in their own country is defended and less than a dozen comments later the above is posted to try and change the topic.

  40. Huck, I thought you were the man who announced “international relations” so important and interesting to you? That you were passionate? That you are uniquely qualified to see the world clearly and without bias? That you were a subject matter expert concerning Israeli relations? Are you incapable of more than a single thought or point in discussion, Scholar?

    BIC is absolutely right about Rutherford’s false equivalency and I did not change the topic. I added to it out of a measure of spite and contempt to demonstrate once again what a rank propagandist concerning the state of Israel and what a blatant Jooo hating, intolerant bastard you really are. At least Poolman is honest and open about it in his idiotic denials.

    It’s worth mentioning that Israeli Christians are also called “Arabs”. Israel is such a shining beacon of democracy that they have ongoing debates as to whether or not call the Arab Christians something other than “Arab” so that way they can get some rights the other “Arabs” don’t get.

    Tell me, Scholar. Where do you get your information concerning Israel that allows you this ability to broadbrush an entire nation? Were you taught that? Was it from personal experience, your vast travels across the globe? Your ongoing relationships with friends living in Israel from childhood?

    Do you believe if I migrated to Israel and made my home there, I would be called Arab because I claim to be Christian? They’re called Arabs because they are Arabs and they refer to themselves as Arabs first.

    You claim these Arabs have limited rights, that they are marginalized in Israel? You don’t like it when I throw in your face that there is not a predominately Arab nation, for that matter Islamic nation on earth, that doesn’t hold a view of Jews as just not perennially inferior, but most not only without rights but persecuted?

    I kept quiet for awhile to keep the peace – but you come across as a humorless prick. There are people that go on to school and come back changed – full of themselves, believing they are better than they really are. You are one of them. School provides a foundation with which to build – you don’t walk out of the hallowed halls with a great measure of perspicacity, sport, no matter how passionate. Your biggest problem is you walked out with a great deal of bias and indoctrination pointing in one direction without the stuff to discern truth from fiction.

    To your point I changed the topic, if there is a single person that should never make mention of “false equivalency” especially concerning this subject, it is most definitely you. I think your mature intellect and passion is one step removed from a college liberal arts degree. You complain that I don’t discuss with you? You really want a discussion? Then learn how to discuss by asking questions instead of ranting every single time. A discussion is an exchange – it’s not you coming in making accusation as world arbiter and lead authority – but you’ll fit right in the feckless U.N. taking that approach.

    Here’s a challenge if you’re able to pull yourself away from your singular point. Name me one predominately Islamic/Arab country on earth where the Jews are treated as equals with the dominant demographic or populace. Just one.

    Time for you to start answering a few questions and letting go of your paranoia about revealing who you are thru your vast experience. Then I’ll be happy to discuss.

  41. Huck, if Arabs were voting as a block to defeat the government, BiBi was within his right to take not of it and warn his supporters they had better vote. He was defending himself and his government.

    Minorities have a tough struggle unless they strive adapt the dominant attitudes and values to become as close to the majority as they can. Even then, the majority may discriminate against them. The majority will if it sees their values as alien to the dominant welfare, marginalize and neutralize the poor slubs.

    It is part of our humanity. It sucks to be a minority, but the Arabs in Israel fare much better than Jews or Christians in a Muslim dominated country.

  42. By the way, Huck. I meant to provide this before I go out of town. Give you plenty of time to formulate your thoughts if you really want to have a discussion, which is not what I think truly motivates you, much as you would like the room to believe that.

    In the theater of my mind, I imagine if 70 years ago you and I were having this same flavor of debate, you would be advocating your usual ‘excruciating even-handedness’ when discussing the behavior of the Allies and the Axis during WW2.

    Because the differentiation at this minute couldn’t be any clearer to me about who is right and who is wrong.

  43. Here’s a challenge if you’re able to pull yourself away from your singular point. Name me one predominately Islamic/Arab country on earth where the Jews are treated as equals with the dominant demographic or populace. Just one.

    You’re as bad as Gorilla. “They were discriminatory pricks first so now it’s my turn.” Is that your assessment of Israel?

  44. Do people here firmly believe the recent Israeli elections are a good thing,especially for the USA ?
    As for the Arab/Christian thing in Israel. Christians in Israel are in many cases Arabs with another portion being folks from the former USSR.
    The United Arab List as a rule is focused on the issues of the minority community in Israel more in line with race than faith. As a side note the Christians in Israel face some issues but those don’t stem from official circles mostly Jewish citizens being douchebags.

  45. Do people here firmly believe the recent Israeli elections are a good thing,especially for the USA ?

    For us? Yes. Is Israel about Israel first? Yes. However, that would be the essence of any country’s diplomatic efforts, unless your country’s diplomatic efforts are being led by people who don’t like your country very much, kind of like our current administration and state department. They have also been an ally, and might be again after our own Junior Varsity is removed from the White House put back on the sidelines in the next election, and we stop tyrant snuggling and getting back to supporting freedom rather than pretending evil doesn’t exist, or that it will change if we only give it enough tongue.

    For the Fresh Prez of Bill Ayers? Notsomuch. He invested a fair amount of political capital and prestige and came up empty. Since he made it about HIM, which he does a lot, of course he’s going to be pissed.

    As a side note the Christians in Israel face some issues but those don’t stem from official circles mostly Jewish citizens being douchebags.

    And I can see why some Christians might choose to live in Israel, especially if they are Arabs, considering that the Assholes for Allah clearly consider it to be open season on them in other countries in the region.

    Clearly, despite this obviously “racist” regime, run under a parliamentary system, which is as democratic as it gets, citizenship is an option, and even if clearly hindered by an institutional racism, the option is more attractive than the alternative.

    And either you’re upset about our public and private endeavors to interfere in THEIR democratic process, or your not.

    As for his speech in Congress being a campaign event, I would remind you that Congress could have not invited him, or said “No.”

  46. we stop tyrant snuggling and getting back to supporting freedom rather than pretending evil doesn’t exist, or that it will change if we only give it enough tongue.

    Utter nonsense. Maybe if over the years we did a bit more tyrant snuggling (Hussein, Mubarak, Gaddafi) the world would not be the clusterfuck that it currently is.

    As for his speech in Congress being a campaign event, I would remind you that Congress could have not invited him, or said “No.”

    Bibi could have said “no”.

  47. Utter nonsense. Maybe if over the years we did a bit more tyrant snuggling (Hussein, Mubarak, Gaddafi) the world would not be the clusterfuck that it currently is.

    Sometimes, you’re trying to stop someone worse, which is distinguishable from French kissing Hugo Chavez and holding hands with the Castros, while giving the legitimately elected government of Honduras the finger and the stiff arm because they were actually following their own laws designed to prevent their very own El Hefe.

    Miles across, and inches deep.

  48. “Utter nonsense. Maybe if over the years we did a bit more tyrant snuggling (Hussein, Mubarak, Gaddafi) the world would not be the clusterfuck that it currently is.”

    Jesus Fucking Christ.

  49. The sheer stupidity makes it impossible lurk here.

    Yeah…..the guy who invaded Iran at a cost of two million deaths, invaded and occupied Kuwait, used scorched Earth on oil fields, attacked Saudi Arabia, attacked Israel, snuffed out a million Marsh Arabs, shot it out with the PLO and gased the Kurds would totally have kept a steady hand in Iraq and the rest of the region.

    Rutherford is willing to bet on an absolute mad man. The loosest cannon of my life time….God knows what he would be up to right now. Even scarier, how would it play out when his sadistic son took over? Holy shit that would have been a nightmare.

  50. And Gadaffi, big shot? Agreed to no nukes and we rejoiced when he got his ass kicked.

    Now that you’re back from your fishing expedition and have had time for deeeep thinking, tell me – do you think every country is ready for “democracy”? I think that is our fundamental FP mistake. Some countries need a strongman, maybe even a sick bastard to keep the lid on things.

  51. Say Rutherford. Did it ever occur to you how stable the South was pre-civil war? Shit. The number of men dying in the Civil War is more than in all other American wars from the American Revolution through the Korean War combined. That’s right, combined.

    There again, I think we all know blacks still aren’t ready for “democracy.” Look at Fersguson. What they need are the Crackas to provide stability.

  52. There again, I think we all know blacks still aren’t ready for “democracy.” Look at Fersguson. What they need are the Crackas to provide stability.

    Nice try but you’re closer to the truth than you think I’m willing to admit.

    I’ve said before that it takes 200 years of freedom to overcome 100 years of enslavement. Blacks history in this country has put us at a distinct disadvantage. What remains is to stop using that as an excuse and DO something about it.

  53. So the follow up question is will we look back 50 years from now and see that the long term struggle for democracy has succeeded in Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya?

  54. Nice try? It wasn’t a nice try. You got the point.

    And using your logic and your answer, every country is ready for democracy. You just said so. Or are do you rely on some racial/ethnic inferiority.

    Now answer my question. Using you definition of “stability,” wouldn’t the ore oppressive the leadership the more “stable” the country?

  55. do you think every country is ready for “democracy”? 

    No.

    “I think that is our fundamental FP mistake. Some countries need a strongman.”

    Agreed. If it best serves our interests. Strongmen that don’t go on military adventures twice every decade. Saddam was fucked up. You fail to apreaciate the history of the mid 80s and early 90s.

    Man, you’re the first to call for American apologies over choices made in order to stop the Communists from taking over the world.

    Rutherford the Realpolitik Guy who cheered for Obama on the Apology Tour!

  56. “So the follow up question is will we look back 50 years from now and see that the long term struggle for democracy has succeeded in Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya?”

    Fuck no. Stink beards are incapable.

  57. “Blacks history in this country has put us at a distinct disadvantage. What remains is to stop using that as an excuse and DO something about it.”

    Who is “we,” Kemosabe? I know many blacks placed at a considerable advantage based on our history. You’d be one of them.

  58. You must be jesting to get a reaction. Of course, not all countries are ready for democracy. I am beginning to wonder about us. If I had dictatorial powers, no one would vote before passing a current events and civics test.

  59. I know many blacks placed at a considerable advantage based on our history. You’d be one of them.

    I’d need more elaboration on that lest I jump at a misunderstood point.

    As for your other question: oppression is a bitch. I would never say the “more oppression the more stable the country” BUT you do have to take into account the citizenry.

    I would venture to guess there is a strain of Islam, for example, that is incompatible with civilized society. That’s my Western POV creeping in. For that citizenry you need a badass, relatively secular, leader to keep a lid on things. How he does it can be debated. Clearly there should be limits we all agree upon (like don’t gas innocent people). Still, a land that has not (or cannot) construct a sensible legislative framework (as most Western countries have) must have authority in place of law. Otherwise you’ve got chaos.

  60. “For that citizenry you need a badass, relatively secular, leader to keep a lid on things. How he does it can be debated. Clearly there should be limits we all agree upon (like don’t gas innocent people).”

    Than you’d be opposed to immigration for these people?

  61. Yes, I’m jesting. I want Rutherford to make his points rather than throwing out tired platitudes as enlightened — all the while failing to recognize the circularity of it.

    Up next: the attempt to characterize Obama’s disastrous FP as enlightened based on the same circular logic.

  62. I’m not sure I get your immigration question despite how “good” DR thought it was.

    Just so I get your premise: immigration of Muslim zealots into a “civilized” country can fuck things up? Not if the country enforces its laws with zero political correctness.

    Example, some dumbass states have floated statutes to “outlaw” sharia law. This is stupid. We have a set of laws that already respect freedom of religion within the bounds of what we have defined as criminal behavior. To the extent that sharia ignores those limits, it will not be tolerated on our shores.

    In other words, as long as we are strict in the implementation of our laws, we do not need to apply a religious litmus test on immigration. You come here, you follow our laws and regardless of religion, you break them you go to jail.

    Not sure it answers your question since I’m not really sure where you were headed.

  63. Is every country ready for democracy?

    Democracy is a noble concept that doesn’t work in practice. Greed, like cancer in the collective undermines it. We’ve never perfected the practice of democracy, yet we impose various forms of it on other cultures. It’s merely a smoke screen.

  64. Capitalist, socialist, communist… What’s in a name? Rutherford, haven’t you learned that in ALL forms of government there are those who hold the resources and assets using them to gain even more until the suffering of the citizenry reaches unbearable instigating revolt? Even in revolt, power rarely changes hands.

  65. BTW I like rabbit’s new busty cranberry look. 😉 I’m not much into nipple piercings, but his is somewhat subtle. A little work on them gams would be good, maybe some stair climbing 😛

  66. “To the extent that sharia ignores those limits, it will not be tolerated on our shores.”

    Wrong. In fact one of my colleagues has a dilemma with a family matter where the parties contracted to be bound by some principles of Sharia and one of them has submitted the issue to arbitration pursuant to the contract. My opinion is that the arbitration provision is binding, and the procedures and rules are enforceable too.

    There is a movement to establish Sharia courts on our shores. The question of what is enforceable is not as simple as you think. And what you claim will not be tolerated is in fact tolerated under certain circumstances.

    Stated differently, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Which leads to. . .

    “Not sure it answers your question since I’m not really sure where you were headed.”

    Yeah. We know. Your MSNBC approach to these issues won’t permit you to.

  67. Shari law exists in scattered parts of Europe. The law is what the majority says it is, even if it is merely being treated as the majority. It can happen here. I would restrict immigration to slow the degeneration. I don’t think our democratic republic will survive in its current form for much longer. It is already degrading.

  68. Well, according to Rutherford, if another culture is incompatible with our governance and rule of law, they should be admitted with a rational expectation that they will assimilate and conform — just like Europe. 🙄

    Frankly, the modern liberal (a/k/a/ statist) can not function in a democracy. The commentary from the liberals here demanding federal decree and wanting dependence is just more proof.

  69. “Frankly, the modern liberal (a/k/a/ statist) can not function in a democracy”

    Yup. I’m done with them. Done.

    It’s a cliché, but liberalism really is a mental disease.

    Fucking people can watch disasters of their own making unfold right in front of their faces and somehow compartmentalize all of it.

    Its getting to the point where I don’t feel I share the same social contract with them.

    They are one of two things: suicidal cult memebers or nihilistic power mongers.

    They give the false illusion to millions of morons, addicts and pussies that they are eradicating all risk in life, infecting said morons, addicts and pussies with dependency- in return they grow the tentacles of Leviathan. Hate them.

    Can you imagine how fucked we would be if we didn’t fight them. We would be slaves.

  70. Shara in matters of family and probate is no different than the orthodox jewish proceedings. What a democracy MUST do is serve the people in a secular fashion and make those rules well known and enforced. FWIW both the Jewish and Islamic variants allow one to back out of the deals and go civil sovereign law but unfortunately cultural prsure pretty much squashes the action or kowledge of it.

  71. James, you are probably more familiar with these European singers than I. Here is one song causing a bit of consternation. No joik…

    Israel is protesting Hungary’s Eurovision entry, which includes condemnation against Operation Protective Edge and mentions the number of Palestinian children killed during the 2014 Israeli military campaign.

    Israeli Ambassador Ilan Mor turned to the Hungarian broadcasting authority, expressed his country’s reservations over the planned song and asked that the problematic segment be removed.

    The Eurovision Song Contest will be held in May in Vienna, Austria. Hungary’s song this year, “Wars for Nothing,” will be performed by a group of three singers led by Hungarian singer-songwriter Boggie. The song has an anti-war message, focusing on the victims of violence and wars in the world. One of the captions in the song’s video refers to Operation Protective Edge, stating: “2014 – Gaza – two-thirds of the victims were civilians, including more than 500 children.”

    Although Israel isn’t mentioned by name in the song, Ambassador Mor asked the Hungarian broadcasting authority to remove the sentence about the Gaza war, explaining that it is seen as an “inconvenient” political message against Israel.

    https://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/hungary-remembers-the-gaza-massacre-in-eurovision-entry/

  72. “… Iraq and Libya at the very least would be stable if we had left things the hell alone.” – R

    Stable by whose definition? No every country is not “ready” for democracy but any other form of government produces even less desirable results than democracy.

    Abraham Lincoln described democracy as “Government of the people, by the people, for the people”. Philosophers from the Age of Enlightenment defined the essential elements of democracy: separation of powers, basic civil rights,human rights, religious liberty and separation of church and state.

    Today the majority of democratic countries in the world are republics (elected officials) and some well established democratic countries in Europe are constitutional monarchies. Such a king/queen can be regarded as a stabilizing factor rather than as a danger for a democracy.

    Today it is more appropriate to define democracy opposite to authoritarian and totalitarian and theocracy regimes as to not create confusion with regard to constitutions monarchies.

    “No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time” Winston Churchill

    Democracy as described by Lincoln really doesn’t exist anymore or in name only. Churchill probably described it best. The democracy that we (USA) preach to the choir as the ultimate goal in places like Iraq and Libya is nothing but a cover up for our real purpose. It’s not the citizens we are trying to protect it’s their country’s mineral sources.

  73. Example, some dumbass states have floated statutes to “outlaw” sharia law. This is stupid. We have a set of laws that already respect freedom of religion within the bounds of what we have defined as criminal behavior. To the extent that sharia ignores those limits, it will not be tolerated on our shores.

    Wrong.

    My state’s bar association has already published articles on sharia law and estate planning and in contract law. Those who adhere to it often set themselves up in enclaves, and the big difference between those “communities” and say a “community” of orthodox jews is that in the latter, there is no time honored traditions of honor killings, and wives and children being chattel, and killing infidels. Most of the concepts of sharia are incompatible with western law and the philosophy underlying it.

  74. “Shara in matters of family and probate is no different than the orthodox jewish proceedings. What a democracy MUST do is serve the people in a secular fashion and make those rules well known and enforced.”

    Since you’ve restated my point, I agree. . . I guess. I can’t tell whether you’re qualifying what I said or not.

    “Serving the people in secular fashion” means enforcing contractual relations that don’t violate public policy (and if you want to open that can of worms, Rutherford, I’m ready).

    BTW, “backing out of the deal” is not as simple as “walking away” because you don’t like the anticipated outcome or changed your mind as to which rules control. Again, I don’t know exactly what you’re communicating.

    In any event, Rutherford’s ignorant comment is both wrong and ironic.

  75. Its getting to the point where I don’t feel I share the same social contract with them.

    I KNOW I don’t. The problem is that when this fact can no longer be ignored, the ugliness that will ensue will be ten orders of magnitude worse than last time, at least in most of the scenarios I’ve run in my head. There are a few that aren’t, but I don’t think that international developments will allow our own government to continue to become so bloated that it will be unable to overcome its own inertia when the right people decide that they’ve had enough.

  76. “Serving the people in secular fashion” means enforcing contractual relations that don’t violate public policy (and if you want to open that can of worms, Rutherford, I’m ready).

    Public policy is almost as quaint a notion as rule of law these days.

    We have devolved back into Rex Lex. Samuel Rutherford would weep if he knew what we know.

  77. For everyone except Huck, I understand this clip is from a few nights ago of US Centcom forces attacking ISIS with drones. If anyone can teach me how to add some Bennie Hill style yackety sax to the video, I would love it. I want to delight at the sights, sounds and thought of ISIS rapist, torturers and murderers having their flesh torn apart in horribly graphic and agonizing fashion — hopefully for their families to see.

  78. Thanks Poolman. I posted Boggie’s video, “Fearless” and Rutherford liked it. Our grand daughter likes it too. Boggie and friends’ song will not win the Eurovision contest.It picks up near the end but it is no “Where Have All the Flowers Gone?” Or “Eve of Destruction. I think of funeral dirges.It is better than VIKA’s commemoration of Ukrainian freedom fighters, but not by much.

    Boggie became famous for a YouTube video she released a year ago January. She sang a song in French as a fake photoshop changed her appearance during the video. The song was popular in Central Europe and made number one in Hungarian record sales.

    Boggie is on a roll right now, and she seems deserving.

    When we lived in England the Eurovsion Contest was a high point of the month. Here is a sample. Madcon is a Norwegian hip hop duo, and this song while preaching gauzy love and tolerance could with Boggies’ lyrics be a song to attract attention. It has a beat, and combined with the videos of Europeans having fun would sell better than Boggie’s effort.

    What do you think?.

  79. Seriously James, stop it with the flash mob shit. Your man card hinges not on your past but where you are now. And you, sir, are a fan of flash mobs.

  80. Madcon is related to this thread. Their families moved to an alien culture and instead of feeling isolated and victimized, they adapted to Norwegian society and added parts of themselves to the mix. Now, they are popular, successful, and rich. They were probably lucky not to meet community organizers and other purveyors of victimhood.

  81. I like good flash mobs, Rabbit. The best require weeks of practice and hard work. I was nearly in a Michael Jackson Thriller flash mob for Halloween, but the practices with few left to go convinced me the effort would be medeocre at best. I attended and was glad not to be participating on video.

    Companies now organize flash mobs just like weddings. Our nephew proposed in a flash mob.

  82. @Rutherford I think the immigration question is a good one and includes asylum too. In the USA some of the worse Islam issues are tied to communities bred out of asylum grants. The Somalis in MN and ME come to mind.

  83. I’ll give you a start.

    Until very recently in Georgia (last 5 years), sodomy was illegal. Because public policy does not authorize enforcement of contracts founded on illegal consideration, attacks on contracts between gay couples (think estate/succession) were unenforceable if found to exist due to the sexual/meretricious relationship that lead to contract formation (domestic partnership).

    Now, if it were the case that a contractual relationship were based on alternate religious grounds ( e.g Sharia prohibitions like those described by Rutherford), what of the voluntary submission of its rules/customs do to the enforceability in domestic relations?

  84. So that the set up is not too thin, keep in mind freedom of religious practice and the same prohibitions on “immorality” as an alternate ground for non enforcement on civil grounds.

  85. p.s. I’m only trying to help with a kick off. I directed the can of worms at Rutherford because it’s way to jump into racial issues with existing laws that, although probably deemed unconstitutional, have not been declared as such. Easy buttons to push because outcomes can touch a nerve with personal sensitivities. Meritricious relationships (also typically applied to hetero couples) proportionally affect gay cohabitating couples where marriage is not legal in most states.

  86. Stated differently, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
    Which leads to. . .
    “Not sure it answers your question since I’m not really sure where you were headed.”
    Yeah. We know. Your MSNBC approach to these issues won’t permit you to.

    Wow. You were doing so well explaining to me that there are complexities I don’t understand and then …

    you HAD to be an asshole.

  87. they should be admitted with a rational expectation that they will assimilate and conform

    They will because we will force them to. You’re here, you follow our rules. And if our laws accommodate unlawful acts hidden under the guise of religion then we have a huge fucking problem.

    Polygamy is illegal, Mormons be damned. The same goes for any other religion that breaks our laws.

    Tigre says I’ve over-simplified it. To the extent that is true, it’s a flaw in our jurisprudence.

    To summarize in keeping with the Borg, “resistance is futile.”

  88. Its getting to the point where I don’t feel I share the same social contract with them. …

    Unless you call yourself trying to impress, you really need to seek help. I’m serious. You sound like a lunatic. I don’t know if you’ve got personal shit going on or what but you’ve pretty much lost your sense of humor; everything is some sort of moral crisis, the fault of “liberals” (whatever they are) and your “hatred” has had you saying some pretty lousy shit to me in the past few weeks.

    Seriously. The fishing trip did you no good. If you hate libs so much, find a conservative cause to give your money and your time to. I’m not trying to kiss your ass-you’re a man of action. I know this from your personal life. You don’t just sit by. You do shit.

    So go DO something to get this “hate” out of your system. You don’t play well angry.

  89. What a democracy MUST do is serve the people in a secular fashion and make those rules well known and enforced.

    As usual lately Alfie says what I’m thinking better than I can.

  90. Most of the concepts of sharia are incompatible with western law and the philosophy underlying it.

    No argument. And to that extent, if someone comes into a courtroom citing sharia, the response should be “Shari who? We have laws – I don’t know wtf YOU’RE talking about.”

    What you and Tigre are telling me is we are allowing religious doctrine to override our secular law and if that is the case, we’ve got a major problem.

    But you know what, BiC? You brought this on yourself with the fucking nativity scene outside city hall. RELIGION SHOULD BE PRACTICED AT HOME AND IN PLACES OF WORSHIP – NOT IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE!!

    You know why you don’t understand this? Because our laws are compatible (mostly) with judeo christian teachings. It makes you complacent about watering down the separation of church and state. So now any religious fanatic can come here and think he’s entitled to beat the shit out of his wife cos his religion says so.

    This is what YOU have wrought.

  91. If anyone can teach me how to add some Bennie Hill style yackety sax to the video, I would love it.

    Don’t know your computer aptitude but try to find a free trial of Camtasia Studio. You can change audio on the video with that.

  92. “You brought this on yourself with the fucking nativity scene outside city hall. RELIGION SHOULD BE PRACTICED AT HOME AND IN PLACES OF WORSHIP – NOT IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE!!” -Rutherford

    Wrong culture, dumb ass. Get back to the stink beards.

  93. So that the set up is not too thin, keep in mind freedom of religious practice and the same prohibitions on “immorality” as an alternate ground for non enforcement on civil grounds.

    Did you mean “is an alternate ground…”?

    I’m not nitpicking. You’re talking legaleze which is hard enough to follow without typos. In this ONE conversation could you type more carefully?

  94. What you and Tigre are telling me is we are allowing religious doctrine to override our secular law and if that is the case, we’ve got a major problem.

    Rutherford, the dirty little secret that your thought-betters have kept from you your entire life is the idea that Western Commonlaw is “secular” (meaning neutral) (it is anything but morally neutral). Nothing is further from the truth, and when we taught lawyers the law by reading Blackstone, this was made painfully obvious to even the dimmest among them. It wasn’t until a largely unqualified man was made the Dean of Haaaaaaaaavvvvvaaaad’s law school in the 1880s that the shift to teaching law by the case method that we started to suppress this understanding, and allow for travesties like Everson and its progheny to work its magic on unwinding the law’s role in preserving society. But then, if you had actually taken the time to read and grok many of the original source documents and court rulings from the founding era to the end of the country’s first century, you could only hold on to this ridiculous belief if you believed that the people most responsible (and the two generations immediately following) for the ten tortured words had absolutely no idea what they meant by them. That would also require the belief that the very first justice of the Supreme Court had no idea what he was talking about when he wrote the papers he authored among the Federalist Papers, and discussed the perceived threat to be sectarianism, rather than the general precepts shared by the judeo-christian philosophy and teachings.

    I swear, sometimes, trying to speak to you about this is like listening to my 15 year old, who considers himself to be a critic of movies when he has no solid foundation in the history of the medium, the mechanics and craft of it, or the ability to even recognize a good story and differentiate between a good one and a bad one. You KNOW what you know, and never mind what you don’t. Your analysis is like looking at an iceberg. You see the part above the waterline, and charge ahead with your thoughts on that without even having a CLUE what exists below the surface. It’s agressive ignorance, and it’s the primary reason why this country is fucked up, not the nativity on the courthouse lawn. People like you play checkers, and fancy yourselves to be deep thinkers. You start with an idea that something that exists is wrong, stupid, or unfair, without ever trying to understand why it exists in the first place, which makes it easier to take a chain saw to it, and when that causes further failure and problems somewhere down the line, it could never be the result of your actions, and even if it might, perhaps, maybe, could be, it doesn’t matter, because you “did something” and got to walk off feeling good about yourself.

    But you know what, BiC? You brought this on yourself with the fucking nativity scene outside city hall. RELIGION SHOULD BE PRACTICED AT HOME AND IN PLACES OF WORSHIP – NOT IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE!!

    Rutherford, that’s crap and you know it. Religion, for people who mean it, impacts everything they do. If it didn’t, then freedom of conscience would mean nothing, because you would be expected to compartmentalize various aspects of your life. Again, this concept would be foreign to those who labored to see government guarantee those freedoms, whether it be Washington praying at Valley Forge, his declarations of days of fasting, prayer, and thanksgiving, or Jefferson’s well-documented plans for the University of Virginia, which would completely confound your narrow and backwards notion of “separation of church and state”.

    You know why you don’t understand this? Because our laws are compatible (mostly) with judeo christian teachings. It makes you complacent about watering down the separation of church and state. So now any religious fanatic can come here and think he’s entitled to beat the shit out of his wife cos his religion says so.

    You know why you don’t understand this? Because you don’t understand the most basic philosophical underpinnings of our law, and what you know of our history on the matter would probably not fill a thimble. Watering down of church and state? THOMAS FUCKING JEFFERSON attended Sunday worship services in the US Capitol building regularly during his presidency. The other worshippers deferred to him and his secretary to the point that they kept the same two seats reserved for them. Those worship services in government buildings continued until the Civil War. The Abramic God is ALL OVER the architecture in Washington D.C….in the memorials, statuary hall, the Congressional Chapel, the lintels in the House chamber and in the Old Senate Chamber, and most ironically of all, in the Supreme Court.

    This is what YOU have wrought.

    Sorry, son. The current madness is on the intellectual forebears of your thought-leaders, and those who have been pied pipered like yourself.

  95. I think a primary concern no matter where one stands is how weird the whole “public policy” concept can get.
    On one hand society and law evolves for better or for worse,sometimes its progress other times decay. Kind of hard to imagine how a society (MD) that punishes a professional couple that allowed their young children to walk to the park could be open to faith leaders dishing out corporal punishment with or without parental agreement.
    Sharia “banking” is another example. It is a fairly clear cut contractual arrangement between parties;however,it has a discriminatory aspect to it that would prevent it from being in compliance with a number of federal and state laws. Should public policy search for a way to accommodate it?
    Divorce is an area of concern. Again using either of the other two Abrahammics in the extreme you get consenting parties as well as at least in theory a social back up. The Temple or Mosque community and leaders serve as the glaring eyes that keep you from divorce. It can still happen though and even more important infidelity and abuse can be present and shielded by the faith. Thats the part that is unacceptable to me. Lest we forget the extreme issue of honor killing or other punishment too.

    ET got me thinking about old state & county laws though. i wonder if the sodomy laws were more about homosexuality or general Biblical/faith based morality.
    That really stirred the pot for me regards the more libertarian part of my brain that buys into the consenting adult on private property deal.

  96. R, that’s mot what I am saying. You can’t follow this. I’ll wsit for Alfie.

    Part of why I’m having trouble following is you can’t type for shit.

    Clue … I don’t get excluded from conversations on my own fucking blog. I’m making a sincere effort to penetrate your legaleze mixed with typos. And since the conversation was prompted by my assertions about how we deal with immigrants, I’m staying in the conversation and its your JOB to make yourself understood.

  97. Alfie, the short response to your musing is this: The founders and the framers understood that the state and the church had their own roles to play in forming and maintaining a stable and civil society. Having come from a place where the state had assumed control over the church, and corrupted it accordingly, they sought to prevent any one sect of christianity from controlling the national government, and to prevent that same government from usurping the church’s power. This was never meant to confine religion and keep it from the public square or from public life; in fact, it was expected that it would very much be a part of the lives of the indivuals making up the body politic, whether citizen or legislator.

    Much of the dual-mindedness that finds expression in “public policy” today comes from the fact that people have accepted the idea that religion is something to be confined as Rutherford put it “to the home and places of worship”, and that the law could be transformed into a moral code rather than a reflection of one. This was the basis for the state’s current expansion and usurpation of other institution’s spheres of influence. I’ve probably stated it here before, but in many ways, people have accepted the subplanting of religious authority with the state’s authority. without ever seeing it for what it is. The SCOTUS even screwed up once, and admitted this in Torasco v. Watkins, but once again, the first rule of Fight Club was quickly applied, and they took care to never speak of it again. However, with a waning of true moral authority, the state’s only tool to fill the vacuum has been coercion, which is why the knee-jerk impulse of society whenever light is made of someone’s bad actions is to make a new law. And with a decline in self-governance, or a code of conduct rooted in a religious or moral basis, the decline continues, and the number and volume of laws grows, because of the delusion that people can make themselves better people all by themselves, and their consternation only grows when reality aserts itself.

  98. @BIC so I assume you “don’t wonder” so do you have an answer ‘cuz I am sincere in my curiosity.

    General Biblical/faith based morality would be your answer, as it was the basis of much of common law in England and America.

    There was a time when bills were introduced, both in state legislatures, and in Congress, when the sponsors actually recited the purpose, rationale, and authority for the laws they proposed.

    Notsomuch anymore.

  99. BiC let me make sure I get this. Are you saying if people returned to their religious roots we would need fewer laws? To put it another way, law is supplanting religion in trying to enforce a moral code?

  100. And the authority was Gods law?

    When they could show consistency with commonlaw.

    But it was most often citing the CONSTITUTIONAL authority for doing so.

    “We’ll have to pass it to see what’s in it” and “the good and plenty clause” would have been absoultely jaw-dropping, and it is contemptuous to the notion of consent of the governed and the people who make up “the governed”.

  101. To put it another way, law is supplanting religion in trying to enforce a moral code?

    No, what I’m saying is that law is increasingly substituted for a moral code, rather than enforcing one. It is more and more distant from reflecting a moral code, and more and more about becoming the moral code, because fewer people subscribe to a moral code to be the primary governing influence on their own actions.

  102. Is getting a blow job from my wife sodomy? If so…my name should be Sodom Icame.

    There…I heard a clap. Rough crowd (adjusts tie).

    There you go Rutherford, some shtick.

  103. BiC when you suggest, rightly, that Jefferson would be disgusted by Pelosi’s ACA comment you ignore all that has changed since then. Did Jefferson spend more than half his time fund raising?

    An aspiring pol I interviewed several years ago had no idea what his constituents actually felt because he was on the phone all the time begging for money.

  104. “They should be admitted with the rational expectation that they will assimilate and conform.” They should be but they won’t assimilate without our raising the cost of cultural isolation. Mona Charon’s article hints at the reason political correctness is so pernicious.

    People move here and tend to live in their own communities. For most of us it is out of sight out of mind. Without the dominant society’s intervention to encourage assimilation, the newcomers in too large numbers will reinforce their old attitudes and values as more people move in.

    Assimilation is a pipe dream, and the law will not save us if political correctness is more powerful. Society may not have the will to enforce relevant laws or it may change them because of political correctness or misplaced tolerance. Many unassimilated blacks live in their own world, but they are economic and social dead ends because even the relatively new black immigrants mostly carry better values. Their numbers are fairly stable and are thus not more dangerous to our society than Asians or most whites.

    Other populations like the Somalis are more like Germans and Scandinavians in the Midwest around 1900. Newcomers replentished their cultures so they didn’t assimilate. Such people with few restrictions on their movements begin to change the fabric of regional society. Many barely spoke English.
    The situation changed with WW! when non-Germans forced them to assimilate to escape harassment and vandalism.

    If trends continue, we will have sharia law in parts of this country unless we forceably stop it. The average person cares and knows more about basketball playoffs than Sharia law. Muslims are more determined to live under Sharia law than we are to stop them.

  105. Because the government either rewards immorality ouright or, at the very least, softens the consequences that often come with immoral acts. Like impregnating women and then leaving them.

  106. “In this ONE conversation could you type more carefully?”

    So fucking sorry. I was using a phone. You’ll get the quality of typing that I can muster. I’ll do my best if actually fucking TRY to follow understand rather than engaging in bias confirmation. You are an extremely difficult person to explain things to because you rarely if ever attempt to view problems from a perspective different from your own.

    So before I move on, let me start with this since you call me an asshole for having to frame things that touch on your emotions to illustrate points to fill the lack of analytics. Imagery and vague notions of what you deem “fair” ain’t gonna get you there.

    So, I guess I will have to explain to you that too that there alternate forms of dispute resolution which takes place outside of a courtroom. One of those is arbitration. Parties are free to contract to have their disputes settled under different rules, with a choice of law, and to a panel or individual not comprised of judges or juries. Since the process is voluntary and contractual the process can be enforced by a court but not determined by a court. Let that sink in first.

  107. “I simply do not believe this is true of most American Muslims.”

    I think you would be right if we were talking about earlier waves of Islamic imagration.

    Not so sure now.

  108. And you attribute this to what?

    The deliberate attack on religion in society, lead in many respects by the courts after Everson, the deliberate concealment of its role in our history by academia, much of which can be followed back to the progressive “thinkers” who set about re-writing history around the turn of the last century, and the pervasive repetition of the idea that separation of church and state means that religion is to be confined, cornered, and caged.

    The effect of these actions results in the marginalization of religion in a way that compromises its authority, and makes it appear to be an increasingly meaningless endeavor, because the State is Father and the State is Mother, and the State will take care of you, and if the State isn’t addressing something, then it isn’t really important any way.

    The State gets power in exchange for extending its blessings on what people desire, and the recipients desire more while finding it more difficult to understand why they shouldn’t feed those desires.

    That would be a thumbnail, but a better description of where we find ourselves would be in Anthony Esolen’s essay “The Vampire State”. I think it explains it quite well, but the religous nature of the analysis might make it difficult for you to follow, Rutherford. Still, I recommend it nonetheless, and I would suggest that one of the reasons why religion makes a better basis for conduct in society than “science” (and yes the quotes are deliberate) is precisely because of the permanent nature, rather than the tapestry of paradigm shifts that constantly change the “truth” of science. Also, because scripture reflects a very good understanding of human nature, which is a lesson which our progressive betters never seem to have a good grasp of. When people get to do what is right in their own eyes, the end result is never good…but I suppose that will be obvious enough when the chaos that we currently foster becomes too great to ignore, and the canines come out.

    Really, R, you should read the essay…and some of the follow ups.

  109. “Clue … I don’t get excluded from conversations on my own fucking blog. I’m making a sincere effort to penetrate your legaleze mixed with typos.”

    If you want to penetrate an argument start by listening instead of lecturing for fuck’s sake.

  110. “I simply do not believe this is true of most American Muslims.”

    I think you would be right if we were talking about earlier waves of Islamic imagration.

    Not so sure now.<<<

    There is a pattern, and its been the same for centuries. They play nice until the numbers reach the point that they don’t have to.

  111. Support for Sharia Law Around the World by Rachel Molschky shows a large percentage of the worlds Muslims do support a form of Sharia law. A Pew survey in 2012 showed 40% of US Muslims support Sharia law and over half favor blasphemy laws. The number is growing.

    A concentration of Muslims with the help of a political party such as Democrats could theoretically gain enough power to change our laws and “make it so.”

  112. BiC when you suggest, rightly, that Jefferson would be disgusted by Pelosi’s ACA comment you ignore all that has changed since then. Did Jefferson spend more than half his time fund raising?

    LOOK! A SQUIRREL!

    Seriously, fund-raising means that we need to be ok with people who get elected and have no idea what role they’re supposed to be playing?

    That’s enough for now. I have to go work out. I might return to this tonight, and I might not.

  113. And by the way, it was Alfie that wanted to open the can of worms concerning public policy. And I am talking about the legal doctrine of legal enforcement based on what is referred to as “public policy.” That’s not the same thing as “social justice.”

    The starting point is that people are generally free to order the relationships and form associations and obligations amongst themselves and are afforded the protection of laws provided that those associations don’t violate public policy. That was the whole point of my “kick off” with Alfie with a discussion of enforcement of contracts founded on illegal or immoral consideration.

  114. “ET got me thinking about old state & county laws though. i wonder if the sodomy laws were more about homosexuality or general Biblical/faith based morality.”

    My guess is they started as one and were perpetuated by the other. Our sodomy laws were only recently struck down in Ga.

    Similar to heterosexual meretricious relationships (cohabitating, engaged in sexual relations, and living as man and wife without being married). A relationship that was afforded no civil legal status.

    Interracial relationships were once deemed immoral and therefore illegal. Unlikely that the prohibition was started as a biblical/faith based restriction but may well have been viewed as one by some that deemed it unnatural.

  115. If the arbitration comment sunk in even with phone typos, why is it that parties can’t agree that they will be bound the application of Sharia law to their dispute/matter through arbitration if they want to? And if they do, why shouldn’t their agreement to be bound by the decision of an arbitrator applying Sharia be enforceable like all other arbitration agreements?

  116. One of those is arbitration. Parties are free to contract to have their disputes settled under different rules, with a choice of law, and to a panel or individual not comprised of judges or juries. Since the process is voluntary and contractual the process can be enforced by a court but not determined by a court. Let that sink in first.

    Now we’re getting somewhere.

    Can that arbitration be conducted by a religious representative or panel or body and if so, are you comfortable with that?

  117. The deliberate attack on religion in society, lead in many respects by the courts

    Ok that is exactly where I thought you were.

    You cite religion as steady and unchanging but isn’t that contradicted by history? Catholicism has changed. Mormons have adapted long held beliefs to adjust to modern day sensibilities (and laws). I’m sure there are other examples.

    There are only a few moral absolutes. Those few, I believe are recognized by the believer and non-believer. Everything else evolves with societal change and sometimes when it does not (radical Islam) the consequences are tragic.

    I’ll put Esolen on my to-do list.

  118. I am comfortable with people voluntarily agreeing to having disputes resolved as they’d like.

    I am also comfortable with people exercising their property rights as they’d like.

    If that means submitting them to the binding determination of a religious representative, I am not uncomfortable as a general proposition. Why do you?

  119. If that means submitting them to the binding determination of a religious representative, I am not uncomfortable as a general proposition. Why do you?

    Doesn’t that take us down the eventual path of sharia overriding what I would loosely call American law (fed, state, county, local).

    I’m trying to grok this. Are you saying that two parties CAN agree between them to submit to a law other than what’s on our books via religious arbitration? If that’s true, I find that troubling.

    Let me pose a preposterous secular example so I can understand the limits. A homeowners association decides that once a week, a child in the neighborhood will be gang raped by the neighborhood men. Everyone who moves into the neighborhood understands the by laws and agrees to them. Is the practice outside the arm of the law? Are the associations bylaws legally binding?

  120. BTW Tigre if I’m understanding you at all, it speaks to why my reference to “dumbass states” earlier in the thread was completely off base.

    If there is room in our legal system for “voluntarily agreed to sharia arbitration” then we DO have a major problem.

  121. “I’m trying to grok this. Are you saying that two parties CAN agree between them to submit to a law other than what’s on our books via religious arbitration? If that’s true, I find that troubling.”

    That’s being debated in the context of Sharia courts. In short though, it depends on the subject matter. In the context of domestic relations, I think the tendency is “yes.” So too with religiously based commercial transactions (for example, Halal/Kosher designations, imports and restrictions for foods). Parties can certainly agree to be bound by the laws of a particular state, even one that doesn’t have jurisdiction over the matter. Parties can agree to be bound by international laws and have them enforced in a US court that doesn’t apply the same law. I don’t find that troubling and I doubt that you do either.

    As for your hypothetical, a court would not enforce an HOA’s determination permitting rape. Such a bylaw is of course not binding. Rape is (criminally) illegal and the rape victim can’t consent to it. Simply put, your hypothetical is flawed in that you conflate criminal and civil legal enforcement/standards and the parties to that can be bound by the agreement.

    Try this one. What if a dispute over the construction of a Will (as in Last Will and Testament) were submitted to arbitration and the arbitrators determined under cannons of the Church of Rutherfordontology that a bequest of property made equally among the decedent’s adult “children” only applied to those children married to a black spouse (though not stated in the will)?

    Now, for your benefit, flip that and say that the will had the racial restriction but the cannons required that the restriction be read out of the will so that all children shared equally regardless of the color of their spouse.

  122. p.s. you have to assume that the decedent stated in his will that its construction would be determined by application of the rules of Church of Rutherfordontology.

  123. p.p.s. I’m only talking about contractual relations at this point which is why I used the example of a will which is contractual in nature (though different for reasons that don’t matter for this discussion).

  124. First, Rutherfordontology sounds like a religion obsessed with oral hygiene.

    Are you asking me if the decedent’s wish that the will be governed by the cannons of the church of Rutherfordontology be honored even though it is discriminatory?

    I would assume that regardless of religious foundation, the will is binding. The disposition of proceeds doesn’t have to be “fair” or tasteful. A man can leave all his worldly goods to his mistress and cut out his wife, right? So, I’m guessing one needs no justification (or can use any justification) for how a will is put together. Is that correct?

    Also you differentiated between civil and criminal. In the case of domestic violence (sanctioned I’m guessing by sharia) isn’t that distinction fuzzy? The marriage contract entered into “freely” by both parties, governed by sharia trumps or does not trump criminal law?

  125. You cite religion as steady and unchanging but isn’t that contradicted by history? Catholicism has changed. Mormons have adapted long held beliefs to adjust to modern day sensibilities (and laws). I’m sure there are other examples.

    I needed a beer before I came back after my workout. Unfortunately, all I had left was to so-so stuff from the Blue Moon Sampler I was given at Christmas. The Gingerbread Spiced Ale is a letdown when I was hoping for a bottle of the Rounder.

    I think that you might have trouble finding a consensus that Mormonism really fits in with the general tenants of Christianity. “Finding” another testament that lacks the various confirmation that we have for the Pentateuch and the Old and New Testaments might be part of that. Catholicism underwent a reformation because its leaders made it about them, and not about the Book. What is contained there has been remarkably consistent throughout the various texts found, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. And I honestly believe that because of the scholarship that has been applied to it over the centuries has actually made it possible to have a better understanding of it than in previous generations, if only because we can now buy translations which explore the meaning of the greek words used in the original greek texts of the New Testament, the hebrew/aramaic of the Old, and the scholars who have spent their lives understanding and making understood the historical context of the various books. While some sects do not consider every book within the Bible to be cannon, which is why you don’t find Maccabees in the King James or the New King James, etc, the consistency between the various translations which are literal are actually quite remarkable.

  126. I would assume that regardless of religious foundation, the will is binding. The disposition of proceeds doesn’t have to be “fair” or tasteful. A man can leave all his worldly goods to his mistress and cut out his wife, right? So, I’m guessing one needs no justification (or can use any justification) for how a will is put together. Is that correct?

    Well, actually, no.

    In a community property state, such as Washingtonistan, a spouse can only give away their share of the community property, which is to say half. The other half of the marital community belongs to the surviving spouse. Now IF there is an antenup that sets forth separate property, or if the deceased spouse had an inheritance or a personal injury settlement which wasn’t co-mingled with the community estate, then it would be considered separate property. You also aren’t allowed to “forget” a child by neglecting to mention them. If parentage can be proved, then the omitted child can get a share of the estate. You have to deliberately and purposely disinherit a child to disinherit them.

  127. Also you differentiated between civil and criminal. In the case of domestic violence (sanctioned I’m guessing by sharia) isn’t that distinction fuzzy? The marriage contract entered into “freely” by both parties, governed by sharia trumps or does not trump criminal law?

    Not always. Some states not only make domestic violence a criminal offense (as they should) but will allow prosecutors to press charges without the spouse testifying or pressing charges.

    My criminal law professor was fond of saying “One cannot “consent” to assault.”

  128. BiC when I referred to Catholicism changing I didn’t mean the reformation. I was thinking more the first and second Vatican council.

    Also, to paraphrase you, you said the reformation was to correct what “man” had done to religion.

    But the minute the spiritual is put to paper it is “of man” and vulnerable to human corruption. That is why no religion, however well meaning, can avoid the hunger for power. Organized religion is a creation of man, not God and therefore inherently ripe for corruption.

  129. There is a pattern, and its been the same for centuries. They play nice until the numbers reach the point that they don’t have to.- BiC

    That is true of any culture not just Islam don’t you think?

  130. Yes, two parties can submit to extra legislated laws through a social compact. My Dutch relatives live in a “ghetto” in northwest Iowa. They enforce blue laws, rules of inheritance, and discriminate against inferior- non Dutch people, especially Germans.,Most are so religious they like Muslims forceably disagree to the extent that they founded two good church-related colleges within 20 miles of each other. .These practices are illegal according to Iowa laws.

    This community of Dutch moved here to escape the more liberal native society, and as much as possible, they sealed themselves from the contamination of secular attitudes and values. The Dutch still have contact with relatives in the old country and in South Africa who reinforce their values..

    They escaped the regional ethnic cleansing Germans suffered because their community was relatively small and insignificant. They also were regarded as conservative, patriotic Americans instead of being German fifth columnists.

    Examples of this culture included my mother-in law’s burning trash at my brother-in law’s home on a Sunday. Two neighbors visited and asked if they needed to call the fire department because no good Christian burns trash on Sunday. Obviously, my mother in law had a problem. A man foolish enough to do field work on a Sunday met a delegation of neighbors who told him to put his tractor in the shed because Sunday was a day of rest. They threatened to pull him out of his tractor if he didn’t enjoy his day of rest relaxing at home.

    The Dutch are slowly changing. A few big stores now remain open on Sunday.

    The oldest son almost always inherits the farm. The daughter usually gets money and the family china. Someone could sue to contest some of these wills, but I don’t think anyone ever does. Ethnic rules supercede the law. This community does “consent to assault” though not the physical kind.

    Our late family lawyer told me “The law is a wonderful thing. You can make it do anything you want it to do.” I believe similar attitudes make unwatched and unencouraged Muslim communities dangerous. Social media adds to the threat. .

  131. I agree, Ragi, it is true of almost all cultures. Texas is one example, and so are the Mormons. Intolerance drove them west, but when they became the majority in a community, they were as intolerant as the people who mistreated them.

    The Muslims are different. They hold values which are different from and harmful to western society. My attitude is biased and politically incorrect. All cultures are not equal. Some are dangerous.

  132. “There is a pattern, and its been the same for centuries. They play nice until the numbers reach the point that they don’t have to.”

    My experience is limited to Dearborn and Detroit so take it with a grain of salt.

    The wave of Sunni Lebanese that followed their Maronite and Palestinian Othadox Christian brothers aren’t known to be very strict Muslims.

    The Albanian Muslims can drink a Pollock under the table. I feel like barfing just thinking of what ever high octane distilled prune juice we were drinking.

    The Shitte Lebanese sling liquor just as much as the Chaldeans and Assyrians.

    The third major wave, after Gulf War I, saw poor Iraqis with a more religious streak but who are vehemently pro American (President Bush in particular).

    At the same time, Yemenese and Somalian stink beards started entering with upper middle class Arabs who are stink bearded out in their love of radicalism.The old waves haven’t teamed up with new waves and actually treat them like shit for a myriad of reasons. But the key here is these new waves are different.

    The dangers of Islamic immigration correlates to the rise of radicalism around the world. No shocker there. But I argue earlier waves came here for the American Dream and improved this country with their penchant for being entrepreneurs.

  133. Of course, another reason Islam is more dangerous is the fact we allow it to be.

    American colleges have been rolling hard with their “hate America” theme and cultural relativism rules the day amongst the intelligentsia of the entire West.

    What a shock. Islam has become a vile tumor in the self loathing West.

  134. “Are you asking me if the decedent’s wish that the will be governed by the cannons of the church of Rutherfordontology be honored even though it is discriminatory?”

    I am asking if you have a problem with that. I assume no. But I am trying to make a point so you understand. So hold on to your hat. We’ll get to something that will bother you in due course. I’ll pick something that’ll push your MSNBC outrage buttons to make the point that there are no absolutes.

    “I would assume that regardless of religious foundation, the will is binding. The disposition of proceeds doesn’t have to be “fair” or tasteful.”

    Your assumption and is wrong. I used the race example for a reason.

    Years ago I had a case that involved what I referred to as the Warner Brothers Will. It exemplified your imagery of white southerners. It gave huge sums and tracts of land o his Church “so long as it remained white.” It made bequests to female family members so long as they were chaste and didn’t take up with “negroes.” There were all kinds of restrictions on drinking, smoking and gambling. It was actually funny to read in its racism and bigotry.

    And it was really, complicated from a legal standpoint because so many of the provisions were legally unenforceable for public policy reasons — and that caused the bequests to pass under other unenforceable or partially unenforceable provisions. In some bequests and devises failed altogether and in others the offending conditions were simply read out of the will so that the now black public but not private entities got the goodies. The old racist was spinning in his grave.

    So, no. The law does not always permit a man to leave his property as he wishes, and the fact that he may relies on religious practices is no shield either.

    “In the case of domestic violence (sanctioned I’m guessing by sharia) isn’t that distinction fuzzy? The marriage contract entered into “freely” by both parties, governed by sharia trumps or does not trump criminal law?”

    Your concept of “trump” in domestic relations law waaay oversimplifies. For example, in Georgia adultery and abuse disqualify an award of alimony. We rely on a principle known as “equitable division” of property at divorce and what is equitable is for a jury to decide taking into consideration the conduct of the parties. What is separate or marital property is governed by complex laws that or may not conflict with religious doctrine. I hope you’re getting the drift. Marriage is not just a “religious” or “state” thing. It is (often) both but the property rights and permitted relations between the parties are enforced by the state and therefore controlled by state law — which includes contractual relations between the spouses (e.g. pre and ante nuptial agreements).

    And there’s plenty more. Adoption and child custody come into play.

    The larger point, the one that creates the dilemmas, is that ultimately the enforcement of the agreements belongs to the state. It’s not just that the parties agree to something. And the enforcement of agreements and freedom to contract, and freedom follow ones own religion, and the right to alienate and dispose of ones property as he chooses, and raise ones own children as he sees fit. . . and smack the ever lovin’ shit out of his smart-mouthed bit. . . I digress. But it all comes into play.

  135. “American colleges have been rolling hard with their “hate America” theme and cultural relativism rules the day amongst the intelligentsia of the entire West.”

    Yep. the self-loathing equals enlightenment” shit is reached the point that self-loathing equals self-destruction.

  136. So would I be wrong in concluding that the consensus is that the US especially at the state level should be vigilant in protecting and asserting our laws over challenges from religious and social corners?…

  137. @ET
    Not so much a question specific to anything than my perception that there was indeed a consensus regards religion and social entities trying to go above or equal to the law.
    I guess examples that have been discussed in a number of threads here demonstrate something I thought was happening.
    For example the vaccination post/issue. Does society have the right to demand that regardless of ones faith or beliefs society is to be protected?
    If one is to allow Sharia banking for example to what extent is it really workable given its inherent discriminatory nature?
    In matters of property I think you’ve made it very clear that once the line is crossed where contracts are illegal they are void,at least on a given line item. Surely we can’t afford to allow that to be different from what it is.
    For sure it isn’t a simple topic. As I sit here I think of point after point that exists that may not come to mind initially,such as home schooling.

  138. Since I mentioned it earlier…
    I think the reelection of Likud and by default Netanyahu is not a net positive for anyone,including Likud and Israelis in general.
    The politics there are tacking right and that doesn’t benefit anyone. The coalition Bibi will likely make deals with will compromise him as evidenced by his walking back the settlement and Arab comments. Likud no matter what folks think are not the extremists that some of the other parties are.
    A Labor win would’ve been a breath of fresh air for all even if some of the issues don’t change. What Americans and others looked past was that the domestic issues were driving the election prior to Bibis defense & xenophobe Hail Mary. Israel is a very expensive place to be.

  139. I agree with most of your last two comments, Alfie. However, Netanlyahu’s victory might become a net positive if he indirectly influences the negotiations with Iran and their aftermath. Presently, France is the main road block to Obama’s flirtation with appeasement Another positive is his victory after Obama meddled in a foreign election. National leaders do that, but I am petty enough to enjoy Obama’s comeuppance. What is seen as Obama’s defeat just might influence our internal politics.

    This also applies to the discussion. “I live in Vilnus, and we are friends with one Polish family. Their 7 years daughter goes to Polish school in Vilnius. Few months ago, polish schools went on strike for 1 day to protest against new educational law. My friends think the law is ok They understand that if their daughter wants to live in Lithuania, she must learn Lithuanian language. They did not want to participate in the strike and wanted their daughter to go to school that day. However they were politely told by their teacher not to go.to avoid possible troubles for their daughter at school in the future.”\ The strike was legal.

    Once again,the incident illustrates how social pressure is stronger than a weakly enforced law.

  140. Thanks Raji for the link. I find Esolen on slightly shaky ground but damn does he screw the pooch when he says healthy women want a reliable man to provide for her and her children. WTF? What century is this dude living in?

    Raji I’m actually surprised you didn’t find that slightly offensive.

  141. Didnt read linked article but Ive seen how today even the most progressive independent female still uses primal biology in choosing a mate. Instead of a good hunter its a well groomed hig degree holder. There is even femns leaning papers that bitch about how men stay boys too long for the women of today

  142. Tigre, from reading your thorough comment including the Warner Bros, I can say only one thing.

    I’m a simple country non-lawyer and it seems to me “the law” has become way too complicated for its own good. No wonder you mock me when I try to apply common sense. Besides the fact you don’t think I have any, there is no room in the complex legal code for common sense anymore. Clearly there is no room for assumptions since every assumption I’ve made has been met with you and BiC saying “aaaah, no.”

  143. “healthy women want a reliable man to provide for her and her children. WTF? What century is this dude living in?”

    Nah……women don’t want a reliable man any more. Hell no…that is NOT what they are looking for. And a man who is a bread winner? No way. I heard successful guys hide the fact they got there shit together…. Because…uh…..Rutherford thinks its politically incorrect.

  144. Women’s looking for good providers is as old as humanity. It is a biologically smart thing to do. I have already told you blue, green eyes, and fair hair are relics of a time when European women fiercely competed for a too small number of eligible men. Such thoughts may be politically incorrect, but the reality is still what matters at a basic level.

  145. I think some of you just enjoy the argument even at the risk of looking like an idiot.

    Did I say that women want to marry a loser? COME ON! Esolen says,

    Now, most healthy women actually want to marry a good and reliable man, who will provide for them and their children.

    The first clause of the statement is obvious and unarguable. It’s the “provide for” part that shows the guy to be a Neanderthal. Most “healthy” women want a spiritual and financial partner, someone who will pull his own weight and contribute to the advancement of the family unit.

    “Provide for” is 1960’s Mad Men speak for “take care of”. Most modern women don’t want a man to “take care of them”. They want a partner.

  146. “No wonder you mock me when I try to apply common sense. Besides the fact you don’t think I have any, there is no room in the complex legal code for common sense anymore.”

    Call me an asshole all you want, I know with certainty that the problem with your analysis is what I said earlier in the thread. And it’s that that I find so irritating: “you are an extremely difficult person to explain things to because you rarely if ever attempt to view problems from a perspective different from your own.”

    You really too much from ad hoc determinations of fairness and simplistic imagery to arrive at your conclusions. Your whole shtick with Obama’s stupid fucking speech at the prayer breakfast is a primo example. I don’t think you even recognize how circular, uninformed and foolish your defense of it became. And it ain’t that your stupid; it’s that you’re stubborn and too invested in political social narratives.

    Look, Alfie is no lawyer but he sees the issues. It’s not the complexity of the law, it’s challenging yourself to see all sides before trying to advocate against them. Remember when you said something to the effect of, “hey counselor, I don’t do the Socratic method?” That may be the truest thing you’ve ever written. 😆

  147. “Most modern women don’t want a man to “take care of them”.”

    😆 Oh yes we do.

    ~

    Re: Rutherford’s rebuke of dead rabbit @ March 20, 2015 at 9:31 am – I don’t need to stretch to understand rabbit’s viewpoint. I want a social divorce myself.

    ~

    The vampire state is excellent.

  148. Rutherford, if you won’t believe us, read “Why Do Europeans Have So Many Hair and Eye Colors”. Europeans lived in the most inhospitible region on the planet which could support human life. The European Stepp Tundra killed young men at a vicious rate. Most men were likely uniquely monagumous because resources were too erratic to barely support one wife.

    Entire populations died out. Finns and Sami for example have two genetic bottle necks from that time, I believe. I think only two males parented the modern Finish population. European mutations testify to when women competed as never before for “one good man”.

    We are the same people as we were then, and time has been too short to erase the scars. Modern civilization has made us sublimate our old drives and impulses, but they remain beneath the surface.

  149. You really too much from ad hoc determinations of fairness and simplistic imagery to arrive at your conclusions.

    I call some of that common sense.

    I may come armed with preconceptions but that doesn’t mean the law isn’t complex. Shit, there was one word you kept using earlier in the thread and every time I read it, my brain hurt. “Meritricious relationships”. In your words Jesus Fucking Christ!

    It reminds me of a course I took Freshman year, “The Theory of Law”. The first chapter opened with a discussion of norms. I swear to God one of the sentences said something like “the norms of the norms were normative norms”. I nearly shot myself. And despite BiC’s disdain for case study, that was my favorite part of the course.

  150. I don’t need to stretch to understand rabbit’s viewpoint. I want a social divorce myself.

    I think “hate” is a pretty strong term and Rabbit used it several times. If your feelings for liberals are as viscerally negative as Rabbit’s then perhaps you too need to seek help?

  151. I

    I try not to hate. it takes too much energy, but if you want to see hatred, look at liberals. I don’t think they need help. They are exhibiting good judgement. I relieve my hostilities with silly videos with private meanings attached.

    This one concerns Hillary. Conservatives killed the liberal star. “You are a”Liberal “star.”

  152. “I call some of that common sense.”

    I pray that was a joke.

    If not, you are the most self unaware person on the planet.

  153. That is true of any culture not just Islam don’t you think?

    No, I don’t. Western civilization has invited foreigners for years….and one only need to look at muslim communities in europe, the US, and Canada. We ARE in the majority, and we are “tolerant” to the point of suicide.

  154. Shit, there was one word you kept using earlier in the thread and every time I read it, my brain hurt. “Meritricious relationships”. In your words Jesus Fucking Christ!

    That’s TWO words.
    It is almost always a bar exam question in this state.
    It isn’t that difficult.

  155. And despite BiC’s disdain for case study, that was my favorite part of the course.

    Case study encourages the practice of making exceptions and tweeks that are divorced from the underlying principals. And ET will tell you that it only gets worse. You read cases from 70 years ago. They are 5-7 pages long. Now? 30, 50, 70…

  156. Western civilization has invited foreigners for years….

    I’m not sure what you mean by this. Virtually every wave of immigrants to this country was initially treated like shit.

  157. “You read cases from 70 years ago. They are 5-7 pages long. Now? 30, 50, 70…”

    No shit. I just had an 87 page reported federal opinion.

  158. So 2 things: Tigre I was trying to differentiate between law studied theoretically vs as applied in real life cases. I got the impression from BiC he felt the focus should be on the former.

    As for cases getting longer, to what do we owe that? Complexity?

  159. I get the appeal of Tony’s essay but it is simplistic. It simultaneously makes government the scapegoat while making citizens mindless dupes who are too stupid to know they’re being coddled to death.

    It’s more complicated than that.

  160. Case law is just that: law applied to an actual case. I guess you mean legal philosophy or something. Otherwise your saying something akin to a debate between theoretical versus applied study of medicine. What does that mean?

    As to the length of cases, I would say that the complexity of the fact patterns leads to lengthy opinions. Supreme Court opinions have always been lengthy because they are generally cases of first impression and of significant gravity. Precision is required. We have increasingly complex business relationships so cases are often complicated as well, and that leads to lengthy opinions. No doubt though that the body of law (volume) has grown. With respect to case law, it’s growth is exponential for the obvious reason that cases continue to be decided. As for statutes, I think the reasons are varied but I would say that you yourself have deem the passing of laws a measure of congressional productivity — at least when trying to criticize the GOP (something I find cringe-worthy).

    Mostly though I think your concept of “complexity” suffers from the generic use of the term “law.” And frankly I am surprised you claim to enjoy reading cases. You haven’t bothered to read the actual text of a single case we’ve discussed here that I am aware of. I assumed you had an aversion to reading cases because you find it tedious and really prefer light commentary over reasoned analysis.

  161. “…making citizens mindless dupes who are too stupid to know they are being coddled to death.”

    Exactly, Even you who are pretty smart was “stupid” and ignorant enough to vote for Obama and the rest of his allies.

    “Western civilization has invited foreigners for years.” I tend to agree with you. Many people were uninvited. They just came and were tolerated, The United States did invite the Bracerios and Germany gave Turks incentives to move in, but many host nations still regard new immigrants with suspicion and disdain. Even Simon Cowel insulted lithuanians on national British television.

    Interesting case law etc discussion.

  162. Rutherford, I thought it interesting that the best link I could find was at Catholic World. I found Esolen’s essay interesting to say the least. Did I agree with everything? No but there was a lot of truth written. I get the feeling Esolen is referring to “mentally” healthy women and providing does not necessarily mean financial.

    At my age I find very little offensive especially regarding race/religion and gender. To me it’s all been said and done. Passion should be saved for more important subjects.

    Alfie I have to agree with the concept that men stay boys too long for the women of today but I think it’s in the realm of commitment and responsibility. As James said bread winners are less important today but not just because of government welfare but because of women’s abilities in the work force. Women are marrying later in life because they are waiting for the “boys to grow up “ 😉

  163. “I get the appeal of Tony’s essay but it is simplistic. It simultaneously makes government the scapegoat while making citizens mindless dupes who are too stupid to know they’re being coddled to death.”-R

    Yep, you hit the nail on the head Rutherford!

    I agree with James, a very interesting discussion on case law, etc.

  164. “Exactly, Even you who are pretty smart was “stupid” and ignorant enough to vote for Obama and the rest of his allies.”

    Just think. President Tyrant is talking about making it compulsory for these ignorant fucks to vote (I can assume with out ID?).

    In other words, replace the republic with an oligarchal socialist Reich that is impossible to shed.

    The guy who is supposed to be my president publicly masturbates to the thought of complete disenfranchisement of the only existing check to their power by a complete harness of national ignorance.

    Fucking hate liberals and its high time people join me. We are not talking about policy disagreement here. Those dsys are long gone.

    They are an existential threat to every American principle that is core to any semblance of freedom. They want to enslave all of us.

    There is nothing to talk to these people about. Vote for anyone who opposes them without apology. RINO, libertarian, religious right….I don’t give a fuck.

  165. @dead rabbit I wish you well man,you’re wound pretty tight this thread.
    I have to say I don’t share in the view that Anthony Esolen is impressive.
    Although I place real importance in social issues I pick my allies twice as carefully as I pick my enemies and Tony doesn’t make the cut.

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  167. BiC how do you feel about the following analogy? Case study is to law as applied mathematics is to pure/theoretical mathematics.

    Yes, and no. Apllied mathematics doesn’t work to set in place exceptions to the rule, or attempt to explain why the rule doesn’t apply…non-eclidian geometry aside, at least not in the Hawking and Kaku that I’ve read.

    Nor does math change over time because mathmetician’s notions of “equity” change. And mathmeticians don’t get to make up or change the operations of the functions which they apply. At least not in applied mathematics. Some of the theorhetical stuff can be differentiated, but again, that would still be in the pursuit of truth, not a specific result. It is an endeavor to explain how and why, not WHAT.

    As to the length of cases, I would say that the complexity of the fact patterns leads to lengthy opinions. Supreme Court opinions have always been lengthy because they are generally cases of first impression and of significant gravity. Precision is required.

    Again, yes and no. Go back and compare. I think the longest O.W. Holmes opinion that I ever read was 7 pages. While he would frequently send me to a dictionary, I didn’t have to set aside an hour to read one of his opinions, or keep a running flow chart on a piece of scratch paper.

    I agree that precision is required, but I also think that the SCOTUS has long placed a greater emphasis on equity rather than law, even if it has been subconscious, which is why many decisions obviously read as though the justice or judge decided the result, and then set out to write a justification or rationale to explain it. Who can forget the “wise latina’s” often stated remark about the purpose of the appelate courts being to “make law”?

  168. But again, when your goal is to change the law, or mitigate its impact on your client, then you throw everything in.

    The impact of Daubert and its expansion on Frye is another development that puts a lot of judges in a role that expands the scope of their authority by granting them discretion to make determinations that they may not have a good academic grounding in.

  169. Oh….I’m wound tight all right. Vile Sparty is up 5 points.

    My disdain for MSU + the money that will be snatched from hands with a Sparty win…….errrrrrrrrrr!

  170. President Tyrant is talking about making it compulsory for these ignorant fucks to vote

    You talk such complete drama queen nonsense lately.

    First, tyrants don’t want people to vote. There is no such thing as democratic tyranny.

    Second, one of the few remaining redeeming features of our country is the right of every non-felon to vote.

    Third, I guarantee you that if blatant voting restrictions ever take hold, you’ll be among the disenfranchised. Cabin in the woods be damned, you’re not rich and when the REAL power play gets made the rich will take the power.

    Thank your lucky stars that blacks are raising a ruckus about voting rights. “First they came for the blacks …”

  171. First..tyrants have long used the plebiscite. Read book about Napoloeon. Or read about the mob and Ceasar. Remember, your side comes bearing tax paid gifts for dependent class. Our republic checks the ignorant mob.

    Your second point made no sense. Don’t know what that has to do with compulsory voting.

    Third point had nothing to do with compulsory voting.

    Nice try.

    How about this. Your side ever goes with compulsory voting you will be begging for a cabin in the woods. But…alas….it will be too late.

  172. First, tyrants don’t want people to vote. There is no such thing as democratic tyranny.

    The Soviet Union, The People’s Democratic Republic of Germany, most of the old soviet bloc, and North Korea, and Saddam’s Iraq are on the phone. They’d like a word with you.

  173. BiC thanks for your comment but I find the logic a bit circular. “Case law” applies the judges sense of right and wrong at the time and then uses the law to justify the opinion. But the law itself is a reflection of society’s sense of right and wrong.

    Law is always subjective. There is no objective “pure” law.

  174. Second, one of the few remaining redeeming features of our country is the right of every non-felon to vote.

    Komrade, good progressives are seriously suggesting that we give the franchise back not only to ex-cons, but also to those who are currently incarcerated, because “RACISM!!!11!!!” and “Social Justice!!!1111!!”.

    Do try to keep up.

  175. I’m fully in favor of compulsory voting. It is the duty of the citizen, even the ignorant ones.

    As for my points not making sense, that’s cos you’re in denial. You identify with Adelson and Koch when you should identify with the brotha just trying to make ends meet.

    The democratic and republican parties both play a mind game on the common trash. Dems tell you “you need us and we’ll “help” you” while republicans tell you “you’re better than that lazy negro. You can make it just like us rich guys did” and then you walk around in your sense of false superiority, complacent in your fair to middling circumstances. “Well at least I’ve got my dignity”. That and 3 dollars will get you a latte at Starbucks.

    The one thing I’ve learned over the past 8 years is that politics is about playing people. You think you haven’t been played. Funny.

  176. “I’m fully in favor of compulsory voting. It is the duty of the citizen, even the ignorant ones.” -R

    Perhaps one day we will get so see how much your heart is in it? You think I’m kidding about compulsory voting? Its on the day that happens.

    On the one hand you paint a picture where many voters are being played because of their ignorance or emotion. Just after you say you are for compulsory voting. You don’t even make sense.

  177. This president is always appealing to the worst in people. People who have neither the inclination nor the information to cast an informed ballot should not be the people for whom laws are designed to conciliate.

  178. So….just so everyone notices. This is a perfect illustration of the crossroads we are at. Its existential. Rutherford wins and America dies.

    He is the enemy.

  179. Law is always subjective. There is no objective “pure” law.

    Law can either be rooted in an objective logic which can be used to dictate consistent outcomes when applied to similar circumstances and events, OR it can be whatever themswhat get to “decide it” say that it is at a given time.

    The former provides a predictable framework for society to conduct its affairs in; the latter is mobocracy, because whoever has the backing of the strongest player at the table wins.
    And when the parties involved no longer care to observe and abide by restraints on their authority, it only gets worse.

    ObamaCare is a great example. Unilateral changes to the law by bureaucratic agencies at the executive’s behest creates a fair amount of uncertainty, which has caused great damage to the economy because employers don’t know how many more changes will occur.

    The Court has a long history of failing to observe its own limitations on its power because it deemed it “important” to address certain issues that were not properly before it, writing long decisions to justify such outcomes, glossing over important considerations when they cannot be explained away, and usurping authority that does not properly reside in the Federal Government in order to come to the “correct” outcome.

    Roe should have been declined on the issue of mootness alone, especially since the relief sought was no longer available by the court’s second hearing of the case. The majority opinion almost glibly declared that the 14th Amendment didn’t apply because they said it didn’t, and the decision asserted Federal preemption on the question when prior to the ruling, it had been exclusively a state matter.

    Griswold was a friendly suit, and the court should have declined hearing it on that basis alone, but again, because members of the court wanted to uniformly confer a legal status on the issue for what were largely social considerations, cert was granted.

    Each time this occurs, we do violence to the separation of powers, as the court continually makes decisions that belong to the legislative and not the judicial branch. We also proceed with a now century-long pattern of severing the law from a consistent underlying logic, because it satisfies an urge to “resolve” an issue which the legislature has not seen fit to address, or because it has done so “incorrectly”. It’s ALWAYS a balancing act, but the trend is undeniably more, not less. More expansion of federal power. More bypassing limitations and restraints to get there. More usurpation of elected authority by the UNelected. If it hasn’t yet occurred to you why this is a problem, then I will sit back and wait for the day when your goals, intentions, and activities run afoul of what 50% + 1 deem to be “Right and Wrong”, despite having neither clue nor concern about how the concepts have been applied before, or the reasons WHY that is the case.

  180. “People who have neither the inclination nor the information to cast an informed ballot should not be the people for whom laws are designed to conciliate.”

    It’s even worse then that. The left has paid them off. They wouldn’t even make irrational decisions because the ignorant won’t be making descsions at all. Just voting for freebies and giving power to Hugo Chavez types.

  181. Obama’s musings are the rant of a fascist. Our ancestors fought for the right not to vote too. Tyrants DO want their followers to vote.

    Compulsive voting is a thinly veiled attempt to bring fools and parasites to the polls when ordinarily most would be too stupid or lazy to find their way to a voting place and back home again. Our salvation is that at least some ignorant folks don’t take time to vote.

    I am kind and peaceful, but I learned a few things. If they come for me in the sense you mean, I will be on the news. “They” failed before. The state took our bridge and the county tried to bully us after two year siege. We and our neighbors were on television five or six times. The county engineer visited and finally told me they were shutting our road, and there was nothing I could do about it.They were also going to condemn seven acres of our land for a new road which by passed the bridge. We had already shown on television that their temporary detour was life- threatening. They were tired of our obstruction, and it would end “today.’.

    I calmly replied that I had seen violence in the service, and if they tried to shut down our road and close our dangerous bridge, I would stop them. Someone would be hurt or killed, likely me, and combined with my wife’s lawsuits and chats with the media, the county and state would look bad enough to get some people fired.

    The county engineer looked at me, and I looked at him. He suddenly decided to approve the new bridge. He was a smart man and good at his job. He was also a notorious bully, and I stared him down. Several people with Iowa’s DOT told us it was a miracle we got the bridge. it was no miracle. It was my wife six or seven neighbors and me.

    Personal freedom is more important than a bridge. I love life and think I have a shot at 90 to 100, based on family history.

    However, my wife and I are good shots, , and I know how to blow things up. I guarantee you,as long as I am fit they will never take me anywhere because I will be dead, and I will take some along with me.

  182. I’m fully in favor of compulsory voting. It is the duty of the citizen, even the ignorant ones.

    Rutherford, voting is a prima facie example of expression, and deciding NOT to vote is also an exercise of expression. That is why you don’t have a President Romney today, because a lot of conservatives simply stayed home in 2012.

    If your options all include a shit sandwich, and your only real choice is the label, then if the First Amendment means anything, you should be able to say “I may end up eating it anyway, but I’ll be damned if I’ll be FORCED to chose it from the menu.”

  183. I like Lurker’s post. My guess is that the crisis workers and she know each other on a first name basis and when she calls, they recognize her voice. “Well hello,…How are you today?”

  184. It’s even worse then that. The left has paid them off. They wouldn’t even make irrational decisions because the ignorant won’t be making descsions at all. Just voting for freebies and giving power to Hugo Chavez types.

    I’m always cautious about using language about “irrational” choices, Rabbit, because it smacks a little too much of the Proggie line about “people voting against their interest” because they reject the party that would make them a victim, so it could play a miserly Santa Claus and “give” them just enough to keep them on a string through multiple generations, rather than allowing everyone the liberty to determine for themselves what they are and are not capable of achieving without the “help” of the nanny state.

  185. Thanks rabbit I ‘d be proud to be in a flash mob with you. You would have been a force in our “battle of the bridge.”

  186. “I love life and think I have a shot at 90 to 100, based on family history.

    However, my wife and I are good shots, , and I know how to blow things up. I guarantee you,as long as I am fit they will never take me anywhere because I will be dead, and I will take some along with me”.

    I can’t stop reading that…..I’m laughing only because I know James is dead serious.

  187. People who have neither the inclination nor the information to cast an informed ballot should not be the people for whom laws are designed to conciliate.

    By those standards 25% of the populace should be voting. Are you in favor of testing? Gotta pass a test before you can vote?

    Being hypercritical of the POTUS doesn’t make you “informed”. I’m not entirely sure you’d qualify by your own standards Muffy.

  188. By those standards 25% of the populace should be voting. Are you in favor of testing? Gotta pass a test before you can vote?

    Are you looking for an honest answer?

    The “test” that I would impose is that if you receive more in public benefits than you pay in taxes, then you don’t vote.

    There was also some wisdom in restricting the franchise to property owners.

    Both mean that themswhat cast a vote have “skin in the game” as President Empty Chair famously quipped.

  189. Rabbit, believe me. I see the contradiction in my own argument. Believing our vote matters is the only thing that can preserve the (illusion of) democracy. With that said, I still think we’re being played.

    I’m seriously considering not voting in 2016, particularly if HRC is the Dem candidate. But I DO feel it’s my responsibility to vote.

    Yes, contradiction and logical inconsistency exist Rabbit, just maybe not in your world.

  190. Rutherford wins and America dies.
    He is the enemy.

    Did you say I make no sense?

    Is your bracket fucked this year? Gotta be more to this than meets the eye.

  191. “But again, when your goal is to change the law, or mitigate its impact on your client, then you throw everything in.”

    BiC, I gotta say to most of what you’ve said in response to R, “yes and no.” Including this. 😆 Mitigating the impact of bad authority on your client’s circumstance doesn’t mean diluting your best argument in my book. I drill down on the weaknesses and expand. Not throw everything in. But that such a generality if may just be worthless statement. I Just don’t agree with some of your take on things when speaking beyond the SCOTUS. Take for example a trade protection case or civil rights case in circuit court or appeals. Holmes didn’t have to contend with the ridiculous statutory schemes in rendering opinions.

    I agree that length of an opinion does not lend itself to clarity in most circumstances. In fact, it’s usually the opposite. And, true enough, the craftsmanship of good opinions seems to have been lost. But I stand by what I said when we deal with intermediate appellate court opinions which are not reviewing the trial court’s decision on certiorari. Trials themselves have become more complicated even over the 20 or so years I’ve practiced. Over the last 100? Holy cow. My senior partners describe their trial experience 50 years go as the wild, wild west.

    Anyway, I had to get that it in. You’re speaking to something different than me, and frankly, Rutherford too. However, having has some involvement in the global warming/carbon emission litigation, I know first hand you are stroke with a mighty wide brush in assessing the state of things today. Make no mistake though, I’d take the wisdom of some of our great jurists over the gaggle of agenda driven twits assigned the task in recent times.

    Question: you describe your practice as one which doesn’t sound like a litigation focused practice, particularly federal (probate jurisdictional exception). You are obviously well read, and have a very broad perspective on con law issues. But then you talk about the bane of my existence (Daubert). Are you more of a trial lawyer, litigation (for those following there’s a difference in the minds of many lawyers), or transactional type?

  192. “Each time this occurs, we do violence to the separation of powers, as the court continually makes decisions that belong to the legislative and not the judicial branch.” – BiC

    As I said in a previous post this is no longer Abe Lincoln’s democracy

  193. “That and 3 dollars will get you a latte at Starbucks.”-R

    You need to get out and about more, Rutherford. Starbucks is called four bucks now for a reason 😉

    James @2:58 😆

  194. Law can either be rooted in an objective logic which can be used to dictate consistent outcomes when applied to similar circumstances and events,

    You sound like Spock. The further you get away from mathematical and syntactic logic the further you get away from objectivity.

    All cats are animals.
    My pet Ollie is a cat.
    Ollie is an animal.

    Complex law that touches on our human values can hardly be so easily relegated to that kind of objective logic.

  195. My senior partners describe their trial experience 50 years go as the wild, wild west.

    My first boss used to say the same thing. He hated the proliferation of rules which make it as much about gamesmanship as they do telling your client’s story. I confess I feel the same way.

  196. There was also some wisdom in restricting the franchise to property owners.”-BiC

    At one time there was wisdom in the above comment. However in today’s economy wherein many previous property owners are now renters that concept would really limit the players wouldn’t it ? .

  197. Raji I got a kick out of your “I’m too old to be offended”. LOL I get that. Much of my offense is intellectual lately, not emotional. Hell the past 8 years of running this blog has made being offended a thing of the past. 🙂

  198. Alfie, I never read the mythological Brandeis brief (as BiC points out a true misnomer). Shit, maybe it was a motivating factor in our brief page limitations in most courts.

    In any event, I have known it to be a highly exaggerated work filled with a mish mash of unverifed observations, dubious conclusions and a flawed “scientific method” (kind of like this blog). But I must admit, like War and Peace, I am not inclined to spend the time with it just to say that I read it.

    You??

  199. “He hated the proliferation of rules which make it as much about gamesmanship as they do telling your client’s story. I confess I feel the same way.”

    Actually, I am told the opposite. The rules preventing secrecy and sandbagging removed much of the gamesmanship. But the one-size fits all application of rules designed to keep cases from going to trial didn’t exist either. I think it would’ve been more fun in The Olden Days. 🙂

  200. The highest compliment? I was sure I called you a short-sighted room temperature intellect once.

    I’ll have to check my “compliments” journal. I’ve been keeping it since childhood. I’ve almost completed one-half of a half page. You’d be in there with a whopper like that if it happened.

  201. I hope you didn’t overlook the fact that by claiming I wasn;t inclined to read the Brandeis brief you were compared to me too. . . kinda. . . . in a roundabout. . . weird. . . barely similar way.

    That too goes into the journal. And since I have large handwriting, that might fill the first page.

  202. My perspective on Brandeis is from a purely historical p.o.v. since in that way he is consistently put forth as the paradigm shift of how a SCOTUS case is presented. Interesting side note I am actually banned from the university that bears his name here in MA.

    @ compulsory voting I am actually for it. When “conservatives” stayed home in 2012 instead of pulling a lever for Mitt & AMERICA they voided anything they want me to hear and I hold a grudge for a long f#$%ing time. I think plurality elections in a non-parliamentary system is a disgrace and I do buy into there being a duty to vote. Now I do have a hook to my view that I insist on identification and a big ole “none of the above” or “no confidence” button.

  203. Rutherford, I had to look up the word “niggardly” as I could not imagine that is still an excepted word. You might find the following amusing or at least informative or maybe more like a daily soap opera 🙂

    Wikipedia -“In the United States, there have been several controversies concerning the word “niggardly”, an adjective meaning “stingy” or “miserly”, because of its phonetic similarity to the racial slur “nigger”. Etymologically the two words are unrelated.

    On January 15, 1999, David Howard, an aide to Anthony A. Williams, the mayor of Washington, D.C., used “niggardly” in reference to a budget.[2] This apparently upset one of his black colleagues (Howard is white), identified by Howard as Marshall Brown, who misinterpreted it as a racial slur and lodged a complaint. As a result, on January 25 Howard tendered his resignation, and Williams accepted it.[3] However, after pressure from the gay community (of which Howard was a member) an internal review into the matter was brought about, and the mayor offered Howard the chance to return to his position as Office of the Public Advocate on February 4. Howard refused but accepted another position with the mayor instead, insisting that he did not feel victimized by the incident. On the contrary, Howard felt that he had learned from the situation. “I used to think it would be great if we could all be colorblind; that’s naïve, especially for a white person, because a white person can’t afford to be colorblind. They don’t have to think about race every day. An African American does.”[3]

  204. Esolen is a Catholic zealot whose views are politely not based in something I respect. Where his points align with my worldview doesn’t make him worthy of my allegiance since his predominant driver is the Papal catechist.
    Vampire State and its companion Vampire School are marched out in corners I am not keen on. I also found the pieces to be stretched for credibility albeit primarily from my bias of Prof. Esolens larger body of work. ex. Reclaiming Catholic Social Teaching. & Defending Marriage:12 Arguments for Sanity
    The dogma spoils the points for me.

  205. Ha. Banned from Brandeis. I figured you didn’t fit the ethnic profile of a member, but banned? Do tell.

    I hope this comment gets buried soon:

    In my limo driving days, there was a really attractive undergrad whose folks had an account for her to use as she pleased. I regularly drove her from the airport to her dorm, or to take her friends out drinking. Though she was hot enough that she couldn’t possibly have needed extra attention, like a bad intro to a porn she always asked for a hand with her bags or trip to her room. And I always obliged. Thankfully this was long before the days of GPS tracking. Somehow I was always stuck in the reception no man’s land of East Boston or the Callahan for extended periods of time as far as the company was concerned.

    Good time. . . good times.

  206. “By those standards 25% of the populace should be voting. Are you in favor of testing? Gotta pass a test before you can vote?”

    If it was a reading test you’d fail. I didn’t say that they “shouldn’t be” voting.

    “Being hypercritical of the POTUS doesn’t make you “informed”. I’m not entirely sure you’d qualify by your own standards Muffy,”

    And yet an affirmative appraisal of him signifies ignorance. By my standards.

  207. “Yes, contradiction and logical inconsistency exist Rabbit, just maybe not in your world.”

    Well…..I hope your willing to go to war over your inconsistent and illogical argument for compulsory voting. If not…tell your friends to put a fucking cork in it.

    Did you read what James said? Or his he also dealing with some misplaced aggression.

  208. Oh GOD I’m so ignorant about sports. I’m watching Wichita State against Kansas cos Kansas is in my bracket. My wife is explaining to me conventions about jersey colors and it’s like a fucking Abbott and Costello routine where I’m Costello. I blame my dad for this. He never let me watch sports with him.

  209. @BIC your offerings re “democratic tyranny” were good ones but DT is a rather blatant oxymoron. People recognize it for what it is.

  210. Raji even though I know niggardly is completely legit I only use it when I’m being “cute”. Otherwise you open the silly can of worms highlighted in the story you posted.

  211. I figured you didn’t fit the ethnic profile of a member, but banned? Do tell.
    bullet points are:
    lots of heineken
    a Black Flag show
    a fight and an ejection
    a refusal to miss the show,hell I paid for the ticket
    a flying chair
    a car off a set of stairs

  212. Did you read what James said? Or his he also dealing with some misplaced aggression.

    James seems RELATIVELY stable right now but prepared for the future. You, on the other hand seem about to pop this very minute.

  213. I’m as stable as I can be while I watch the Sprint Cup race. Matt Kenseth is leading Kevin Harvick. With 20 laps to go, the race is getting tense. Now, with a caution, the burning question for the racers is “do I take two tires or four? Or do I feel lucky enough to take my chances without a pit stop?” A heart breaker. Matt Kenseth’s car just broke an axle.

    No misplaced aggression here. It is stored in Al Gore’s lock box.

  214. Question: you describe your practice as one which doesn’t sound like a litigation focused practice, particularly federal (probate jurisdictional exception). You are obviously well read, and have a very broad perspective on con law issues. But then you talk about the bane of my existence (Daubert). Are you more of a trial lawyer, litigation (for those following there’s a difference in the minds of many lawyers), or transactional type?

    Largely transactional. I do a lot with businesses, from formation to winding up, and everything in between. We’re outside counsel to probably 80-90 companies ranging in size from mom and pops to companies that might do as much as $20 Million in gross sales annually. Occaisionally, that means that I go to mediation, arbitration, and court, including the one time I got the right to intervene in a divorce on behalf of the corporation that I was representing (it was on reconsideration, and I had to basically draw the picture in crayon for the judge, but I WON). This means that I’ve also had to secure trademarks, service marks, and copyrights. I also do a fair amount of estate planning from the simple to moderately complex (I’m NOT your guy if you want a CRAT, CRUT, or an Intentionally defective grantor trust), and a about a third of what I do is probate work, which I actually enjoy.

    As for the rest of it, I read a lot, try to keep current on the big cases being decided in our state courts, and a lot of the SCOTUS cases. But do I do a lot of trial or litigation work? No. I think our state court system makes it too difficult to get the case heard to begin with, and I’ve had too many “Twilight Zone” moments in court to willingly say “Thank you sir, may I have another.”

  215. Brad Kaslowski won at the last minute after two more yellow flags. Brad had led only the final lap in the whole race.

  216. Actually, I am told the opposite. The rules preventing secrecy and sandbagging removed much of the gamesmanship. But the one-size fits all application of rules designed to keep cases from going to trial didn’t exist either. I think it would’ve been more fun in The Olden Days.

    Jon always used to refer to it as a “gunfight”.

    “You walked in and told your client’s story, and the other guy did the same. No endless motions, commissioner’s copies, working papers, case schedules, discovery cutoffs or all the bullshit that makes it so expensive, time consuming, and exasperating.”

  217. “Tigre are you suggesting you gave the undergrad a tip and not the other way around?”

    What can I say? I live to give, my man.

  218. As I said in a previous post this is no longer Abe Lincoln’s democracy

    The republic which he presided over had fewer self-inflicted wounds and was much less damaged and hamstrung than the one currently being slowly bled to death.

    At one time there was wisdom in the above comment. However in today’s economy wherein many previous property owners are now renters that concept would really limit the players wouldn’t it ? .

    Why do you think I lead with the taxes vs. benefits point?

    Although arguably, deliberate economic policies would have something to do with the shifts in property ownership.

  219. BiC, your focus is about what I had visualized. All that you described are complimentary. The disputes in those areas (estate, closely held companies, a/k/a business divorces, domestic etc.) are remarkably similar in terms of approach and issues too.

    I can tell from your writing that you are good at what you do. I hope you like it and get rich doing it.

  220. I always root for Brad. I think he’s a Michigan dude. I remember a few years back when he first started making waves.

  221. Haven’t gotten rich yet. I make considerably less than I envisioned. Haven’t had a six-figure year yet in 13 years of practice, but I don’t LIVE in my office, and unless I have something terribly time-sensitive, like litigation, I go home at five most days.

    But I have a few clients who I think the world of because they are geniunely good people, and in a few cases, the work they do is critical to the world working the way that we have come to expect.

  222. The Clash is my fave of all time,didn’t get a chance to see them live but have seen all of the members in their other forms (BAD,BAD II,Strummers Earthquake Weather tour,& Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros,& Havana 3 AM)

  223. Yes, rabbit, Brad is from Michigan. He came forward after the two cautions. For most of the closing laps, Bush was leading Brad and his crew were pretty happy as one would expect.

    Now, I need to put a couple of sheets of tin on my late parents’ garage.

  224. Yup first game I watch and my team gets slaughtered.

    Basically Wichita State gets possession=Wichita State scores. I don’t even know shit and I could see Kansas had no defense. 😦

  225. Finally. Obama’s first success.

    He got you into sports.

    He does a bracket after all..and…so…do some of the other cool kids.

    Suddenly Rutherford is bitching like I do about sports with his bracket getting shafted.

    Who knows….we might end becoming friends when you are my POW.

    That was sarcasm. As in a joke. Rabbit in no way wants Rutherford or any one else as a POW.

  226. Rabbit I kinda backed myself into an interest in the tournament via my interest in computer apps.

    All these years I’ve heard “bracket, bracket, bracket” and never paid any mind until this year I wondered “is there an app for that?” I installed the ESPN app and then used a combination of bigotry (favoring southern teams) and teams I’ve heard about over the years (Villanova, Notre Dame) to make my picks. I’m getting my ass kicked. My wife is beating me (but not by much).

    FWIW, I’ve got Duke winning the whole enchilada.

  227. Rutherford, you act like I am an unstable drama queen.

    Things are being tossed around by the left that would be deal breakers. Things that would give you guys complete control of the country. Forever.

    And I’m not talking about fringe celebrities. I’m talking about the President. And you!

    These dreams of yours….do you not see where they lead?

    I’m a family man. I ain’t doing shit unless my family is at immediate risk.

    But there are millions of us that think we’re at a cross roads. The direction you are fighting for is incompatible with millions of us.

    Abd millions of Americans would think compulsory voting is a deal breaker. Up to 20 million of us… to pull a number out of my ass.

    Think about that. 20 million of us. For change in policy you think is illogical.

    Reason, logic….the cornerstone of the Enlightenment and the American Revolution.

    Yet you mock it.

    You have the DNA to support a tyrant. I witnessed the entire time you were part of the emotional cult of ’08-10. It was so damn creepy for us watching you and others like you.

    The perfect Rube. Superficially educated and isolated, lacking any religion you desperately worship men.

    Sure.,..your faith is tested right now.

    But another god or goddess will bedazzle you before you croak. God knows what you could be talked in to.

    The left is playing with fire as of late.

  228. Michigan State screwed me. I was set to win this thing.

    I dont do a traditional bracket. Instead we pick ten teams. Seeds 1-3 earn a point a win. Seeds 4-13 earn 2 points a win. 14-16 3 points a win. Pick any teams you want.

    We’ve been doing it for almost 20 years.

  229. Sounds like a bad sit com. Rutherford is Dead Rabbit’s POW.

    Funny thing, after 3 imperial stouts (I’d force my POW to drink every round I do) I’d probably win the waterboarding argument by letting Rutherford waterboard me at the bar and then I’d talk shit about how well I handled it.

    Either that or I scream like a bitch and then beat my POW. Yeah..there would be the occasional beating. But nobody would be allowed to fuck with Rutherford.

    BiC brings up a good point. Stockholm Syndrome.

    This would help Rutherford so much. It would be like an exorcism of Belky out of Rutherford’s body. Except it would take place over 6 weeks on softball fields, bowling alleys, titty bars, huge dead rabbit family and tribal meetings. Weddings. Hunting. Fishing. Golfing. Going to steel plants. Factories. Party stores. Even my pusy job.

    Rutherford would be laughing at pajama boy within weeks.

  230. Sounds more like Fifty Shades of Rutherford to me DR.

    And here I took as more of a feather and pillow fight kinda guy.

  231. “Sounds more like Fifty Shades of Rutherford to me DR.”

    Lol. We tried that. Every time I put the ball in Rutherford’s mouth his tracheotomy got all fucked up.

  232. So you pick 10 out of the original 64 and just run with it? Seems harder to accumulate points that way though I guess it’s simpler.

    What happens if 2 of your ten wind up in the final? Do you then have to pick your winner?

  233. Except it would take place over 6 weeks on softball fields, bowling alleys, titty bars, huge dead rabbit family and tribal meetings. Weddings. Hunting. Fishing. Golfing. Going to steel plants. Factories. Party stores.

    While I would be terribly awkward in most of those venues, it actually sounds like fun.

    Already been to a couple of titty bars back in the day. One was called “Crazy Vin’s”. I was taken there on my birthday. The “V” was distorted and I thought the place was a Chinese restaurant called “Crazy Yin’s”. Imagine my confusion staring at a topless dancer and wondering why there were no egg rolls on the menu.

  234. I’d like to record it all on camera.

    Of course Rutherford doesn’t have a problem with coerced voting. He is a liberal.

  235. Freedom is being prosecuted for not paying taxes.

    Freedom is being ticketed for running a red light when you didn’t hurt anyone.

    Freedom is being arrested for fucking your 13 year old neighbor, after all, she enjoyed it.

    So Tigre, what other ways is your freedom being limited?

  236. Madcon is a Norwegian hip hop duo

    lol. Said matter-of-fact makes me chuckle. Theme natives got rhythm! I can the appeal for the target audience and the Euro vision shirts probably help too. Of course everyone wants to be a part of something bigger than themself.

  237. Them

    Rutherford, freedom is NOT having someone tell you what you can and cannot do. Free to make your own stupid mistakes. We live very isolated from reality in America. If we were tasked to survive by our own skill and cunning, the liberals and fat ones would be far fewer in number. Just sayin…

  238. Thanks for the memories, Rutherford. My brother and I used to watch Looney Tunes when we got home from school. I always liked the Warner Brothers cartoons better than Disney’s.

    Ha Ha Poolman. Did you see the Germans? Who would have thought the Germans of all people would have rhythm? yes, everyone wants to be part of something bigger than him/herself, and it was a good opportunity to also be on television. Did you watch the security guards non too gently push members of the audience away from Madcon as they began?

    . This was not a true flash mob. A flash mob starts with a people mingling with the normal crowd. Some music begins, and one by one the flash mob forms. At the end, they stop and mingle as if nothing had happened. A good one takes weeks and months of practice.Fat Boy Slim is credited by some with the first flash mob in a movie theater with his video for “Praise You.”

    Rutherford, I was in college during the Selma marches. Some of my college classmates went down there, were arrested and sent letters published in our college news paper. Some of us thought a fast would be a nice support for the marchers. Then, the college decreed that no one would eat in the cafeteria. The food providers would still serve meals, but we all were told not to go to supper.

    Eight of us decided the rules had been changed to compulsion, and we braved any derision to eat in what was that night, our own private dining hall.My then girl friend and future wife was to be part of the anti strike, but she didn’t show up because she said her dorm mates had pressured her in the same way as the Polish school in LIthuania had pressured the parents of a girl to join a strike. As in Lithuania, social, not legal pressure compelled behavior, but the principal applies.

    Our country was founded on the principals of freedom and personal responsibility,. Ordering people to vote is as tyranical as telling them when to protest or to join a strike.It will take time, but if we submit to the piecemeal erosion of our freedom, we will be slaves in a police state.

    Compulsory voting is a ghost from another time. “Give up the ghost.”

  239. “Freedom is being prosecuted for not paying taxes.

    Freedom is being ticketed for running a red light when you didn’t hurt anyone.

    Freedom is being arrested for fucking your 13 year old neighbor, after all, she enjoyed it.

    So Tigre, what other ways is your freedom being limited?”

    I swear I think you’re retarded sometimes.

    Now which of these activities isn’t voluntary, including earning a taxable income (something less than half of the country do)? Go on dumbass. . .

  240. I’m curious about peoples positions on the voting thing. Am I to assume people find compulsory voting truly akin to tyranny? Can I assume you apply this to schooling,taxation,the draft, and jury duty?
    Were the public health initiatives of the 20th Century dictatorial tyranny? (infant underweight,TB,Syphillis) From a prior thread getting ordered to get a needle was ok but going to the polls is bad?
    I think culturally speaking a democracy should instill the desire in the citizenry to embrace a stewardship of that democracy.
    If not compulsory voting perhaps we need to move the day or establish a rolling holiday called Election Day.
    Not for nothing but We need to do something because if you think the politicians and power brokers have a problem with 39% turnout you’re mistaken. I’d put it to you that those that buy into the “Vampire State” the dracs love 30-50% turnout.

  241. Nope. I don’t believe in compulsory voting. It as expression of one’s preferences that they may choose not to make. Your examples are a total departure. If your statement is “I don’t want to vote, I support none of them, for me to express an opinion is reckless, etc.” so-fucking-be it. This is not public health or defense. It’s thought and expression.

    If you want to “encourage” voting by making special accommodations (e.g. voting day), that’s one thing. Voting should remain a privilege. Punishment for not voting is something else entirely.

  242. El Tigre I find your position that my examples are a total departure to be fallacious especially in context of your defense for not voting. I have a very hard time believing your arguments weren’t uttered as the various laws were enacted.
    I don’t buy into voting being a First Amendment thing. Your argument seems shaky given precedents only loosely related to national defense having previously trampled the First. I think one could credibly declare voting is vital to national security and preservation of the Constitution and the republic.

  243. That’s a lot of platitude Alfie.

    And I don’t know what “I have a very hard time believing your arguments weren’t uttered as the various laws were enacted” means. Please elaborate.

    Conscientious objection?

    Child welfare?

    Where am I wrong.

    Isn’t voting an expression of preference/opinion? How is it a matter of national security/defense?

    Enquiring minds want to know. . .

  244. By the way, there’s nothing “fallacious” about my assertions. I oppose Obamacare on similar grounds and always have. We had a lot of back-and-forth on that. I am very sincere in what I’ve said.

  245. As citizens, we have duties and responsibilities toward our country. We elect representatives to manage what is too great for us to run. Voters, through their representatives decided jury duty, the draft, and public health rules while coercive were designed to benefit the most people

    Our representatives also provided exceptions to let some people escape. For example, one could be excused from jury duty or declare a moral and religious aversion to serving in the military. The government also decided that some occupations and college attendance were more important to the welfare of the country than forcing selected men from going to war. The compulsion was not universal. Women were exempted from the draft.

    Voting is different. It all begins with voting. The citizens hire and fire through their votes. Candidates let us interview them, and our vote decides their fates. Free people cannot be compelled to vote if they don’t want to vote. Citizens sort themselves out. Until now most people with a vested interest in our government vote. Many others don’t care.

    They should not be voting anyway. A government which forces universial voting does so to control the outcome of an election by bringing people who might vote for the wrong reasons to the ballot box.

    I would not even consider the benefits of universal coerced voting without an equally mandatory long universal economic and civics course with a test to indicated an understanding of the issues and candidates. It would be renewed at each election.. Moreover our media would be forced to present an objective view of the issues, and our entertainment industry would face sancions if it engaged in politicing a short time before an election.

    Almost as importantly, how would the government enforce mandatory voting? Would we have another uniformed police force? They could wear black shirts.

  246. Platitudes? I think you’re being intellectually obstinate.

    I simply don’t see where the income tax and compulsory public education pass your test but compulsory voting doesn’t. I dare say a number of folks felt they had a right to choose how much schooling they should pursue. That compulsory education in the United States was more tied to the economy than actually caring about kids is important also.
    You define voting as an expression of preference. I think it can be defined as a civic duty just like jury duty. With compulsory voting you can go,check in and say fuck it but you will show up. This is how Australia rolls with 90+% turnout and with “real” turnout secondary to spoilt ballots from the free expression types it is in the 80’s.
    On a federal level you elect Senators and technically electors for President. Since the President is CiC of the armed forces and Senators ratify treaties how is the selection of them not relative to national defense and security?
    I can agree that compulsory commerce is out of order and that is why ObamaCare is the FAIL it is and why SCOTUS declaring it a tax was also an epic fail imo.

  247. Ted Cruse is pandering to win votes. He is Hispanic and he can speak Spanish. We are becoming a multi- lingual nation, so more power to him.

  248. @ James you are already “coerced” in many ways regards voting by the requirement of registration.
    Whether you feel coerced your registration opens you for jury duty,helps in allocating government resources and many other things via census adjustments.
    You are living an illusion in believing you’re free.

    I also am the complete opposite of you when it comes to the control concept. I believe lower turnout controls the People. Shit bag incumbents staying in power is directly tied to low voter turnout. Only the vested interest crowd can bother coming out for them. Compulsion isn’t the best cure for apathy I’ll grant you that but something needs to be done.
    As for low turnout in primary elections,which is linked to your interview assertion, I’d put it to you that the math makes it harder to attract a better field of candidates. If people/candidates were fighting for 70-90% of the electorate instead of 30-50% I think you’d see something positive.
    As for enforcement one simple way to do it is to simply remove voters from the rolls if they don’t vote. I don’t think you need to fine people.

  249. Applying your logic, compulsory commerce is a civic duty. Ask Obama.

    Anyway, I am not being intellectually obstinate. As I said, I am sincere. You don’t need to be a dick about it. Your belief that compulsory education and taxation are the same is a bridge too far. Forced expression of preference is not a power the government ought to have. I don’t give any more of a flying fuck what Australia does than I do Europeans with socialized medicine.

    There is of course no compulsory education of any kind (public, private, home schooled or any other) for emancipated adults.

    If this is what you want Alfie, I oppose it. I am surprised you think it this exercise of a governmental compulsion is appropriate on a visceral and logical basis. That is all. I am surprised. Just don’t accuse me of being “intellectually obstinate” on such a fundamental point. I said I was sincere and I mean it. I find your examples distinguishable and unpersuasive.

  250. Gorilla @9:39

    And let the games begin!

    I agree with Alfie that there should be an ELECTION DAY but compulsory voting NO!
    Voting constitutes an opinion and one should not be forced to voice their opinion. I’m with ET on this one.

  251. Whether of not someone finishes eighth grade affects the economic and social well being of this country. Choosing not to vote does not. A non- voter merely forfeits the right to complain about the outcome. Obama, who proposed a universal vote is motivated for self interest. He wants a permanent liberal Democratic majority.

  252. The big irony here is not that TFG floated the idea of compulsory voting…he wouldn’t be the first to do so. But enforcement would be problematic, and implies that ID would be necessary to verify that one had actually done as commanded.

    So ID for voluntary voting is racist, but ID to confirm compulsory voting is not.

    Because it isn’t important to verify that someone should be voting when it’s voluntary, but it absolutely is important when it is mandatory, no doubt.

    This is why Daddy drinks and we can’t have nice things.

  253. freedom is NOT having someone tell you what you can and cannot do.

    So Poolman, as I suggested to Tigre, you want a society without laws?

    Laws restrict SOMEONE’S freedom.

    Look I have a libertarian streak too but the rhetoric about freedom can get pretty absurd.

  254. Well ET we’ll have to agree to disagree. The position you take is at best “pro-individual” except when its convenient in my view. That was partly why I said you were obstinate.Being told you have to send your child to school and get his shots is somehow too far from requiring people to be active in controlling the elements that make those rules is mind blowing to me. To use your term,surprising.
    You and your allies deem compulsory voting (“forced expression”) as being a power the government holds. I just don’t understand how you see it that way. You seemingly concede the government has the power as opposed to the People having it. The People truly have no power if they don’t use it.
    I am clearly more pro society than folks here are or at least willing to admit. Don’t get me wrong I loves me individual freedoms,but We function at a higher level. The epitome of one of our most glaring points of dysfunction is how we fail to vote.

  255. I read that too, Rutherford. I wonder why. Maybe timing?

    I thought the same thing BIC. Perhaps Obama’s racist white half proposed compulsary voting to disenfranchise his black better half.

  256. Now which of these activities isn’t voluntary,

    I get your voluntary distinction but we are asked to do very little in service to our country, virtually nothing. We don’t have to fight for it. We don’t have to do any civil service. Is it too much to ask that we participate in the democracy?

    And my point with the extreme examples was that voluntary participation in a SOCIETY means some sort of sacrifice. Not just doing what YOU want to do.

    Compulsory voting would be a hassle for me but a minor one.

    Let me ask you and the room a question. Do you feel there is a slippery slope between being forced to vote and being forced to vote a certain way?

  257. “Do you feel there is a slippery slope between being forced to vote and being forced to vote a certain way?”

    If one is forced to vote (compulsory) from ignorance (voluntary), the very purpose is undermined.

  258. “First he comes for the banks and health care, uses the IRS to go after critics, politicizes the Justice Department, spies on journalists, tries to curb religious freedom, slashes the military, throws open the borders, doubles the debt and nationalizes the Internet.

    He lies to the public, ignores the Constitution, inflames race relations and urges Latinos to punish Republican “enemies.” He abandons our ­allies, appeases tyrants, coddles ­adversaries and uses the Crusades as an excuse for inaction as Islamist terrorists slaughter their way across the Mideast.

    Now he’s coming for Israel.” ~ Michael Goodwin

    Move over Jimmah Carter. Worst President Evah….Thug & Fool

  259. The state has an interest in the welfare of children. We don’t mandatory adult vaccination or education.

    “You and your allies deem compulsory voting (“forced expression”) as being a power the government holds.”

    No I don’t. Forced expression, particularly political expression, is certainly not a power that the government holds under the constitution or any of its underlying philosophy.

    And yes, the power to punish or deprive of a right (removal from voting rules) would be an inappropriate exercise of governmental power. It is also an unconstitutional one IMO. Taxing and spending and police powers are not.

    Mid blown I guess.

  260. No I don’t. Forced expression, particularly political expression, is certainly not a power that the government holds under the constitution or any of its underlying philosophy.

    And yes, the power to punish or deprive of a right (removal from voting rules) would be an inappropriate exercise of governmental power. It is also an unconstitutional one IMO. Taxing and spending and police powers are not.

    THIS.

    Only my mind isn’t blown.

  261. By the way, there’s nothing “fallacious” about my assertions.

    You misinterpreted Alfie. He didn’t mean deceptive (the opposite of “sincere”). He meant “based on false information, a fallacy”.

  262. Pure torture. Rutherford, who probably knows more about theology than sports – absolute zero – is belittling my beloved Kansas Jayhawks, who suxed this year and got drilled by an in-state team. I was so disgusted with the performance, I turned it off with 8 minutes left and worked on my old truck to soothe my sorrow. That after driving 1,600 miles in less than 72 hours. I would never make it as a truck driver.

    God has a great sense of humor.

    But at least my daughter matched in med school. 😀 What an absolutely chilling moment – and normally a very cool customer is my daughter. My daughter’s hands were shaking so badly opening the envelope, I thought I was going to have to help. Then she looked and started bawling. I didn’t know if that was good or bad for at least 30 seconds until my wife assured me those were tears of joy. Then her roommate and younger sister started bawling too. Then my wife started sort of tearing up. Women are so weird and so different.

    All of this for the local Houston TV cameras, by the way. Our one shining moment in history and all the women are bawling in my family. They probably think me some tyrant or psychopath since I was the only one kind of smiling for the camera crew – basically because I had no idea what the hell was going on. 😈

    A damn photographer followed us around the entire day because they are doing some write-up on my daughter – supposedly a great honor. I told my wife baloney – it’s a great fundraiser for the medical school so they can provide more scholarships. “Can’t we get rid of them and go eat?”

  263. alfie – FWIW I agree with you regarding every one voting. However, and more importantly, Mr. paul Weyrich disagrees with you. His reason is they have more control over the outcome with fewer voters…which of course they believe the winner will be in their favor.

    “Paul Weyrich, “father” of the right-wing movement and co-founder of the Heritage Foundation, Moral Majority and various other groups tells his flock that he doesn’t want people to vote. He complains that fellow Christians have “Goo-Goo Syndrome”: Good Government. Classic clip from 1980. This guy still gives weekly strategy sessions to Republicans nowadays. The entire dialog from the clip:
    “Now many of our Christians have what I call the goo-goo syndrome — good government. They want everybody to vote. I don’t want everybody to vote. Elections are not won by a majority of people, they never have been from the beginning of our country and they are not now. As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down.””

    This video was produced by People For the American Way: http://www.pfaw.org

  264. We don’t have to do any civil service. Is it too much to ask that we participate in the democracy?

    Telling me that it is mandatory isn’t asking. It’s telling.

    “Paul Weyrich, “father” of the right-wing movement

    Wow. A “Daddy” I didn’t even know that I didn’t know.

    Is this what it feels like to be a member of one of those “communities” organized by the likes of the Wrong Reverends Jackson and Sharpton?

  265. I don’t see that compulsory voting solves anything. I think there are preferable alternatives (like term limits) for the multitude of problems that low voter turnout produces. I also think it incumbent upon those who want the change to win the argument first. That would be a refreshing turn in its own right.

    I actually think the argument for compulsory voting is easier than the argument against, but that isn’t winning the day for some reason. Alfie you make a lot of sense but for every one of the benefits of mandatory voting there is a flip side. I’m not sure your grudge against “conservatives” who stayed home for Mitt will be allayed by compulsory voting soon anyway, but at the very least you have made a decent case for such in the LAST election. I just think it’s too late by decades to reap the questionable benefits of compulsory voting and if anything it might just hasten us along on the road to irrecoverableness.

  266. “And my point with the extreme examples was that voluntary participation in a SOCIETY means some sort of sacrifice. Not just doing what YOU want to do.”

    Like raping your 13 year old neighbor.

    Maybe you can better explain why you argue against voter ID but for mandatory voting.

  267. Congratulations to your family, Tex.

    Voters stayed home because Romney was too something or other, and they followed their consciousnesses. Had they been compelled to vote, they probably would still not have voted for Romney. Others of the left who also stayed home might have let the Democrats retain control of the Senate and won more local elections because without the compulsion, they would not have abstained from voting.

    I agree with Paul Weyrich to a point. Many people should not vote unless they know something about economics, our government, who is running, and the ramifications if specific policies are enacted. Obama wants more people to vote because he knows the dependent and ignorant people will insure that Democrats retain permanent power. He wants to turn us into a one party nation.

    Voting is one of a citizen’s most important responsibilities. He/she is still voting when staying home. This discussion, while fun is academic.

  268. Borrowed from a FB post: Do check out the link 😆

    “LOL!!! Who in this day and age becomes a Senator … much less a frothy mouthed “firebrand” Senator … much less announces a bid for the presidency without securing their domain names first?!?”

    http://tedcruzforamerica.com/

  269. Well I stated early on that I want ID and “None of the Above” too but there really isn’t anything I can say to persuade the people here to my side and that’s o.k.
    ET I’d love to point out the hows and whys of my comments since you took them wrong but I’m sensing it perhaps more important to leave this particular horse alone.
    On a different note I am awarding the Hypocrite of the Year Award to Israel PM Benjamin Netanyahu for his quote today of:

    “I think, similarly, that no element outside the state of Israel should intervene in our democratic processes.

    emphasis mine just in case anybody was missing the irony and hypocrisy.

  270. @ James…you’re killing me!
    He/she is still voting when staying home.
    Voting is a participatory sport so no when you choose not to get your ass off the bench you haven’t participated.

  271. Fuck it this horse just needs a bigger stick maybe…
    1)I’m curious why ex-felons not being allowed to vote is ok? We had this discussion before in a prior thread about how a “rehabilitated” citizen should be allowed to get the emphasis back on “citizen”
    2)I don’t know about everywhere but I know around here no census (local census) no name on the roll,you have to re-register. Is this so wrong?

  272. Thank you Muffy & James. Very touching moment. My soon-to-be son-in-law flew in from Pittsburgh, great “kid”, flew in starting at 2:00 AM, got stuck on the tarmac, never made it until after the opening of the envelope. 😡 His father who is from San Antonio picked him up, we met at the med school, and all went to lunch at the Houston aquarium. Lot of fun. Houston actually is a very cool city, if you don’t mind driving with 5,000,000 other people.

    Had a party that night as all the friends and family gathered on wifey’s dime – a reckoning of what is to come with the wedding. I thought college was outrageously expensive. Hah! 2nd and 3rd mortgage stuff. Then my youngest got sick that night with the stomach virus, couldn’t go back with me and I had to get the dogs out of the Vet, and I drove another 1,000 miles to pick her up and back the next day. I’m not kidding when I tell you I was “in the zone” and running on empty Saturday and Sunday. She had take all her “stuff” to Houston from KC and flying would have been cost prohibitive to get all that crap back.

    But my two apples are worth every penny, every mile, every tear. I love being a dad and could not be prouder. Anybody man that has a good wife and daughters is blessed beyond belief.

  273. Alfie, abstention means the act of choosing not to do something. Obama abstained about 127 times in the Illinois legislature. In effect, he was voting for none of the above, just as people who stayed home did. As BIC wrote, Obama “heard” the voices of voters who stayed home.

    Netanyahu is a politician securing his power. He also is angry at Obama. He may yet top himself. The year is still young.

    You’re welcome Tex–one of the rewards of fatherhood.

  274. 1)I’m curious why ex-felons not being allowed to vote is ok? We had this discussion before in a prior thread about how a “rehabilitated” citizen should be allowed to get the emphasis back on “citizen”

    Why is it ok to tell them they can’t own a firearm after they serve their time?

    Honestly, I think it depends on the jurisdiction. Here, they can ask the court to restore their franchise, and ask the court to restore their firearms rights. I’ve actually done the latter, and was successful.

    But I don’t assume anyone is rehabilitated just because they served their sentence. I’ve known too many felons to be that naïve.

    2)I don’t know about everywhere but I know around here no census (local census) no name on the roll,you have to re-register. Is this so wrong?

    Well, here the Dems pushed through vote fraud by mail, and they aren’t really too interested in verifying who they’re sending ballots to, which is why they are frequently shocked SHOCKED, I SAY! to learn that people who have been dead for years have been voting from the grave.

  275. @ James he voted “present” but I don’t want to be niggling.
    @ BiC I thought a comment with he word census in it would get a different response from you.
    Yeah I’m not a big fan of mail ins except in the case of deployed military and people who pick up a ballot in person.
    As for felons yeah I get what you’re saying and am cool with the released having to do some extra leg work to fully restore their rights. I supported the Rand Paul Corey Booker thing.

  276. Obama voting “present” isn’t indicative of lack of enthusiasm or choice.

    At first I didn’t think a no confidence vote would make a difference but upon further reflection I think it would have. At the moment I remain dubious with regard to future elections though.

    The Republicans party needs to decide if they want the voter that stayed home or wants to stay mad at him/her. I guess that depends too on who you think stayed home.

    “That’s why he “heard” all of those who didn’t vote, right?”

    Mm hmm. Obama knows how to seduce.

  277. James serious question; I’m not being a wise ass. Can Cruz speak Spanish? I believe he’s Ivy League educated for whatever that’s worth. I also thought he had ties to Canada? I gotta do more research.

  278. Dershowitz said he was one of the brightest students he’s ever had at Harvard law.

    I’m not sure how much of an endorsement that is, considering I’ve been up against a few Harvard law grads who were sharp as basketballs, and ummmm, oh yeah, Obama, who apparently is the only lawyer to be a law review editor without having to publish a law review article of his own.

    He was born in Canada…to a mother of US citizenship, so settle down.

  279. He wants a permanent liberal Democratic majority.

    James, so what? Elections are wars of ideas. If the GOP keeps losing that war in the POTUS race, that’s hardly Obama’s fault.

    If “you” can win the House and Senate, why can’t you win the WH? A permanent Dem majority shouldn’t be had at the polls if you win the war of ideas.

  280. Do you feel that you aren’t forced to vote a certain way now?

    I think that question is absurd. HOW I vote is a matter of free will. And I have no problem with IF I vote not being a matter of free will.

  281. I just took a count of my 454 hollow points.

    Which one if you statists are going to be driving the mandatory voting van to snatch me up?

  282. Like raping your 13 year old neighbor.

    Exactly. If we are talking “freedom” then we need to draw lines about what constitutes reasonable freedom. There are cultures where that isn’t rape in the first place. I wanted to get a sense of where Tigre draws the line on his freedoms.

    Maybe you can better explain why you argue against voter ID but for mandatory voting.

    Other than the implementation questions of compulsory voting I see no contradiction.

    Voter ID by SOME (not everyone) is a device to deliberately limit the franchise. Opposition to compulsory voting is also (by some) an attempt to limit the franchise.

    If I did not believe that voter ID is being advocated with ulterior motives I would be 100% in favor of it.

  283. That’s why he “heard” all of those who didn’t vote, right?

    Yup when people don’t explicitly make their views known, politicians can hear what they want to hear.

  284. “Exactly. If we are talking “freedom” then we need to draw lines about what constitutes reasonable freedom. There are cultures where that isn’t rape in the first place. I wanted to get a sense of where Tigre draws the line on his freedoms.”

    Wow. I didn’t think you could dumb it down any further than you already have.

    I was wrong.

    Bravo!

    Just don’t touch my mandatory necrophilia laws. 🙄

  285. He was born in Canada…to a mother of US citizenship, so settle down.

    Hey I’m cool with that. Talk to Trump.

    I only brought up Canada in response to James mentioning Cruz’s Hispanic bona fides.

  286. “Voter ID by SOME (not everyone) is a device to deliberately limit the franchise. Opposition to compulsory voting is also (by some) an attempt to limit the franchise.” -R

    Voter ID for EVERYONE who votes. Not some. EVERYONE.

    Your logic is twisted.

    You fit your weak arguments for whatever scheme that gets your idols closer to taking over forever.

    You really need to wrap your mind around the fact that there are millions and millions of dead rabbits. We are not the ignorant chababas you dream of bussing into the polls. We are far more dangerous then lemurs who burn their own hood.

    Permanent disenfranchisement of us would be the worst fucking mistake you morons will ever make.

    I firmly believe politics have evolved into a zero sum game. There is a battle for permanent control by your side. The days of my parents voting for both Kennedy and Reagan with pride are long gone. Just go ask my parents.

  287. BiC more than just Dershowitz says Cruz is one smart cookie.

    What’s really odd is Ted’s pointing to Obama’s instruction by the mostly “communist” Harvard faculty. So that begs the question did Ted go “la la la la” when in their presence?

  288. Use dependency as a tool to corrupt elections.
    Sow racial discord at all times.
    Lure as many illeagal aliens as possible and feverishly work on getting them hooked on the dole. Give them citizenship. Dangle carrots.
    Push through compulsory voting so that every ignorant and malleable mind in the nation votes for a tyrannical Caesar.
    Lie constantly.
    Take away freedom and enslave under the guise of eleminating risk. Indoctrinate the entire population to be risk averse.

    7.Marginalize fly over territory and rural America constantly.

    Control the media.

  289. Voter ID for EVERYONE who votes. Not some. EVERYONE.

    You’re not reading carefully. Not “for”, “by”. I am saying voter ID is advocated by SOME as a method to limit the franchise.

  290. Rabbit you make no sense. Compulsory gets MORE of you and yours to the polls.

    Just imagine if every closeted bigot in America had been forced to vote in 2008. Obama might not have been a thing.

  291. So Ted is the first to enter the ring. Let the circus begin. I wonder how many performers the GOP will put in the act this time around? 6? 7? 8, or more? The jebster will be the finalist regardless. It’s his turn.

    I would be totally good with mandatory voting if/when the government becomes totally transparent.

    So, likelihood of hell freezing over. [btw also on my prayer list :grin:]

  292. ”Voter ID by SOME (not everyone) is a device to deliberately limit the franchise. Opposition to compulsory voting is also (by some) an attempt to limit the franchise.”

    You don’t find the obvious reasons convincing??

  293. I think I counted 8 points but thanks for enumerating point 7 to help me keep track. 🙂

    I so enjoy what I said to James earlier I’ll repeat it to you Rabbit. Win the war of ideas and you’ve got no problem.

    Call me a bullshit artist all you like. I think you’ve got the best chance to win the WH in 2016 than you’ve had in a long time.

  294. “Win the war of ideas and you’ve got no problem.”

    Man….I used to think that.

    But its not about ideals anymore. You yourself mock the logic and hypocrisy of your own ideas.

    This a war. Zero. Sum. Game.

  295. Yeah asshole. I want biggoted racists steering elections. That’s great for America.

    You sure do a good job of promoting compulsory voting.

  296. You’re not reading carefully. Not “for”, “by”. I am saying voter ID is advocated by SOME as a method to limit the franchise.

    Even if that pile of steaming bovine excrement were true, the argument you are making is so stupid it hurts.

    “Voting is so important to society that it should be mandatory. But making people prove who they are so they can vote is a scheme to deny some people the franchise.”

    Which people? The ones who would need ID to board a plane, cash a check, buy cigarettes and booze, open a bank account, get a job, but can’t get one to exercise a right so important to society that it MUST BE MANDATORY?

    Really. M.C. Escher has nothing on your brain.

  297. BiC:
    Board a plane – the poor and elderly don’t fly
    Cash a check – I work for a bank most of whose customers don’t use or order checks
    Cigs and booze – only those whose age is questionable ever get carded
    Get a job – if “illegals” can get a job without proper ID so can legals
    Open a bank account – not a necessity

    Your list is the old tired comeback.

    You want voter ID then find a way to issue them to EVERYONE. I’m all for that.

  298. Ahhh rabbit I was just trying to show you the bright side. 🙂

    In the words of Larry Wilmore, let’s keep it 100. If enough bigots had voted to counteract the black vote and install McCain wouldn’t you have been happy?

  299. Voter ID is about fraud. Obviously.

    “Win the war of ideas and you’ve got no problem.”

    Is that what you’ve won?

    Rabbit’s right you know. Yeah, you know it.

  300. “Cigs and booze – only those whose age is questionable ever get carded.”

    You don’t know anything, do you?

  301. Sounds like you raised a pretty good kid in spite of being such an asshole, Tex. Good show! 😛

    Indeed I did. Too bad you couldn’t have done the same… 😀

  302. Nothing wrong with rabbit Alfie.

    I just assume you’re holding your fire on some of the shit coming from Rutherford.

    Why don’t you guys correct the misapprehensions instead of demonization? Isn’t it all about idears?

  303. Voter ID is about nearly non-existent fraud.

    I fixed it for you. Probably the cleanest elections of any country on the planet. Fraud: the rallying cry of the loser, regardless of party affiliation. But as I told BiC, find a way to get every legit voter an ID and you’ve got me on your side.

    And yes it is a war of ideas. We’ve debated this constantly on this blog.

    Idea: it is the government’s job to provide for the people.

    Idea: Redistribution of wealth is fair and just.

    Do I need to list more of them?

  304. Rutherford, you know where you go really wrong? It’s when you think Obama won on big ideas.

    Hope & Change isn’t an idea. Neither is Yes We Can! Nor is We are the Generation We Have Waited for – those are lame platitudes, which is what sells you and millions like you. In fact, I’ll bet you can’t name me an ideas with a plan from 2008, much less 2012.

    Obama actually won an election in 2012 when he had no economic platform whatsoever, after Americans had said the economy was there #1 concern. Convinced 51% of Americans that Mitt Romney was going to implement Operation Defunct Loan again. What’s that tell you about the intellectual makeup of America? You probably won’t get it because you’re one of the platitude majority.

    Obama won for three reasons: (1) His race; (2) Free Stuff; (3) Abject Stupidity on behalf of 51% of Americans. Period.

  305. “Seriously though is it felt ideas don’t matter anymore?”

    Look at Rutherford whacking off to Cruz announcing. Not one fucking word about ideas. And there’s a shit ton to work with just going off Cruz’s speech today.

    But hey jacking that domain was shore a brilliant idea yuk yuk.

  306. “I fixed it for you.”

    You sure did. You fixed it good, Leftie. Popped that lock like a pro and ransacked the place.

  307. “Fraud: the rallying cry of the loser, regardless of party affiliation. But as I told BiC, find a way to get every legit voter an ID and you’ve got me on your side.”

    What are you talking about “get” them an ID?

    You deny the obvious reason for voter ID but accept that we want blacks not to be afforded the right?

    You’re fucking nuts.

  308. “Pools if we’re lucky, our children always make us look better than we are.”

    Yeah, lucky Tex. May the odds be ever in your favor. 😉

  309. “Pools if we’re lucky, our children always make us look better than we are.”

    You know what I was thinking with respect to Rutherford when he left that LEFT-handed compliment? “Well hell, that won’t be much of an accomplishment – that’s almost a given.”

  310. “Cigs and booze – only those whose age is questionable ever get carded.”
    You don’t know anything, do you?

    Muffy I don’t often call you an outright liar but I’m calling you on this one.

    There is no way in hell you’re going to convince me that some college kid manning the counter at a 7-11 is gonna ask a grey haired geezer for his ID before selling him a pack of smokes. You know damn well it rarely happens.

    Either you live in a fantasy land or you really think me the fool.

  311. Obama won for three reasons: (1) His race; (2) Free Stuff; (3) Abject Stupidity on behalf of 51% of Americans. Period.

    And the first two are IDEAS!

    Idea: it is a measure of racial progress to have a black president

    Idea: Redistribution of wealth is good and fair

    No one said you had to like the ideas. Can your party successfully sell these two IDEAS in 2016:

    Idea: the progress represented by the first woman president is in vain if it is the wrong woman

    Idea: Redistribution of wealth leads to perpetual dependence

    Sell those two IDEAS among others in 2016 and you win the election.

  312. You see Tex the biggest flaw in the GOP is laziness. Be FOR something instead of against something. Americans like a positive agenda-even a childishly simple one like “yes we can”.

  313. Look at Rutherford whacking off to Cruz announcing.

    Oh Muffy get the loooong stick out of your ass. The domain stuff was funny and if you didn’t think so, you’ve got no sense of humor.

    I made no attempt to analyze his speech and I never claimed laughing at his domain problems was analysis.

    His ideas today were what we’ve come to expect. Fight Islamists, eliminate the IRS, no common core and no path to citizenship for illegals. So, will those IDEAS win in 2016? That remains to be seen.

  314. Yeah, lucky Tex. May the odds be ever in your favor. 😉

    Muffy with all sincerity, suck it.

    I was paying Tex a compliment in contrast to Pool’s obvious dig. And if you don’t think there is an element of luck to raising a successful child then it’s pretty clear you’re either childless or VERY full of yourself.

  315. Because old people don’t fly doesn’t fly.

    Nothing in BiC’s list flies as I ably demonstrated.

    Having government ID is NOT a given and those who lack it tend to be poor or elderly.

    If we can via census or some other method issue “voting cards” to everyone then your fraud-phobia gets answered and the poor and elderly don’t get disenfranchised.

    Funny how ID checks for gun ownership offends your constitutional fee-fees but an ID for voting is a MUST.

  316. Walker got another victory today. He’s going to be tough to beat in the primaries, especially after he says “do we really want another 1-term senator running the country?”

  317. “Muffy I don’t often call you an outright liar but I’m calling you on this one.

    There is no way in hell you’re going to convince me that some college kid manning the counter at a 7-11 is gonna ask a grey haired geezer for his ID before selling him a pack of smokes. You know damn well it rarely happens.

    Either you live in a fantasy land or you really think me the fool.”

    There’s no question that I think you’re a fool. So if you’re calling me a liar then get on with it and don’t mince words. You’re already weaseling out on your own pronouncement while you’re “calling me on this one.”

    Here’s what I know that you don’t – very often the “questionable” age is not questioned – it’s automatic that you are asked for an ID when purchasing liquor and/or cigarettes. The line goes faster, the risk of error drops, and people with grey hair are not exempt.

    “Funny how ID checks for gun ownership offends your constitutional fee-fees but an ID for voting is a MUST.”

    Quit making shit up and answer the challenge.

    Why no ID requirement for voting?

  318. Ouch. Cruz=Obama. Of course using the same logic Rubio=Obama and Paul=Obama.

    Speaking of Rand Paul a cursory Google reveals he’s already attacking Cruz. This should be interesting.

  319. I answered your question Muffy more than once. ID requirement is fine when everyone has access to an easily obtained valid ID. I can get on iTranslate and give it to you in a few other languages if you like.

    There’s no “line” at the 7-11 at 1 in the morning. Keep selling, I’m not buying.

  320. “I answered your question Muffy more than once. ID requirement is fine when everyone has access to an easily obtained valid ID. I can get on iTranslate and give it to you in a few other languages if you like.

    There’s no “line” at the 7-11 at 1 in the morning. Keep selling, I’m not buying.”

    Moving the goal posts all the time is kinda fraud-y.

    “Cigs and booze – only those whose age is questionable ever get carded.”

    The above is not true. You don’t know that because you never saw it on the teevee but it happens all the time. Not rare by any means.

    OK then your answer is… because it’s not easy enough for some people to get one? So how does mandatory voting get your support – no ID required?

  321. “Cigs and booze – only those whose age is questionable ever get carded.”

    Then let’s only card those whose citizenship is questionable.

  322. In the words of Larry Wilmore, let’s keep it 100. If enough bigots had voted to counteract the black vote and install McCain wouldn’t you have been happy?” – R

    big•ot
    ˈbiɡət/
    noun
    noun: bigot; plural noun: bigots

    a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.

    You mean had enough white bigots countered the black bigots, right? I know I’ve been saying this for years, but I’ll say it again: there is no difference between whites voting for whites and blacks voting for blacks. None. If you are going to call whites voting for whites bigoted, then that same term fits the blacks voting for a black man.

    Further, and you know this full well, Conservatives didn’t vote against Obama because he is black, and the last 6+ years has born out that Conservatives were exactly correct about who and what Obama is.

    ‘Obama won for three reasons: (1) His race; (2) Free Stuff; (3) Abject Stupidity on behalf of 51% of Americans. Period.’

    And the first two are IDEAS!
    Idea: it is a measure of racial progress to have a black president
    ” – R

    Whoa, hold on a sec. So it is a good idea to vote for someone because they’re black but it is bigoted to vote against someone because they’re black?

    rac•ist
    ˈrāsəst/
    noun
    noun: racist; plural noun: racists

    a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

    Take a long look in the mirror. Your “black community” is incredibly racist, and has become increasingly so since Obama came onto the political scene. MLK would be ashamed of what he’d see today, not just in the status of the community, but especially in the conduct of the community.

    You deserve black hoods as much as the southern whites of the ‘60’s deserved their white hoods…

  323. We are in Omaha with our grand daughter, so I have no time for this.

    Rutherford, Ted Cruz can speak Spanish, but not well. He has joked about it. One word for his Spanish is “Spenglish.” My guess is his Spanish-speaking abilities match my French, better at reading than speaking. On the other hand, Jeb Bush and his Mexican-American wife speak Spanish in their home. The Castro twins, a great Democratic Hispanic hope in Texas also don’t speak Spanish, but they are learning.

    This background may help explain Cruz. His father was tortured by the Batista regime police, and he fought for Castro. Later, as Castro expropriated property, Cruz’s father turned against Castro and fled to the US. at age 18. He didn’t know English and had little money. He enrolled in college and later married a US woman. They started an oil-related business in Calgary, Alberta.

    Cruz’s father never got over his guilt for supporting Castro, or that his sister who also turned against Castro was beaten and tortured. The family moved to Texas after a slump in the oil market. They divorced when Ted was in college.

    Cruz is legitimately Hispanic with a laudable past, but like the Madcom hip hop duo in the Eurovision flash mob video he is assimilated. Each have atypical pasts, but they are more American and Norwegian than how they began.

    Obviously Cruz and others will emphasize their roots because it is cool to be Hispanic now a days.

    Our having one party in semi-permanent power turns us into Mexico and other authoritarian regimes. If a party wins domance through ideas, it is one thing. However, Obama and the progressives want to achieve that goal through lies, and ignorant voters. That is why Obama suggested compulsory voting. When potential supporters don’t vote, they are effectively “voting” against the progressives. He is thinking about his political welfare, not our country’s. We need people like Ted Cruz, though not as president, to repair the damage our country has suffered through, but for them to also become permanent fixtures would as bad.

  324. Huck wrote then lets card only the people who are questionable. He has a point about profiling. However…

    My wife and I had a tourist discount Eurorail pass in France. The conductor asked for proof of our identities because he thought we looked more French than American. The Swiss thought we were Germans.

    I was carded when I was in the service. I was 27 at the time. The bar tender said “You are an old bastard aren’t you.” When I was 65, I asked for a senior discount. The teller asked to see proof of age.

    I was storm chasing, and stopped at a mall to take videos and to buy some more video tape right after 9/11. A woman thought I was a terrorist taking videos in preparation for bombing. My car was surrounded by police when I returned from the store. We all had a good laugh.

  325. “Seriously though is it felt ideas don’t matter anymore?”-Alfie @11:13 pm

    I didn’t want Alfie’s question to get lost in the comments as I think it’s a good one to ponder. Ideas should matter but I think ideas are losing ground as platitudes seem to be today’s norm for the general populace. Ideas are not encouraged in today’s educational system as “thinking” has been replaced by “memorization”.

    John Locke defines idea as “that term which, I think, serves best to stand for whatsoever is the object of the understanding when a man thinks…”

  326. Campaign slogans are not “ideas.”

    Based on the midterms, I guess the lazy GOP won the battle of ideas. Hell, the dems ran against Obama’s “ideas.”

    Your “ideas” lost R. Now get in the back seat.

    Next.

  327. Be FOR something instead of against something. Americans like a positive agenda-even a childishly simple one like “yes we can”.

    You mean like a well funded military? Or how about freedom and liberty? How about a simplified tax system? Or a secure border? Or Romney’s five point plan for job creation?

    What you meant to say was be FOR something that we’re FOR. Because as far as I can tell, that statement of yours would be most applicable to your party as I demonstrated with Obama having no economic policy – not even putting one forward. What we heard are “tax breaks for the rich” and other tripe. And I think the reason is that Obama, Gruber and Hillary have you guys and gals from the Left pegged – you’re too stupid to know any better and they don’t want to confuse you with complexity when you’re perfectly happy with soundbites.

    To this day, nobody has any idea what Obama’s foreign policies are – only that the results are disastrous.

    P.S. – Are you not aware, dumbass, that not only do I have to show an ID to purchase a hand gun, but I have to wait for a background check to receive what I paid for? Yeah, why don’t we put forth an Amendment that states whatever the rules for a hand gun, those rules will also apply equally for the right to vote. I think you accidentally might be on to something.

    Rutherford, guys like you are selling this country out and you’re too ignorant to even recognize it. The paradox is that you’re ruining it for you own kid.

  328. In the mind of an MNBC liberal, anything that conflicts with Dear Leader’s message means not being ‘For” something.

    This discussion makes me weep. Rutherford would be considered an academic elite among those that don’t know better. He wouldn’t know an “idea” if one slapped him in the face; his logic eclipsed by my own children’s’. Gruber was right.

  329. Pools if we’re lucky, our children always make us look better than we are.

    I don’t ascribe to luck, Rutherford. While we all are living under grace, I do know the source of my good fortune. I have two wonderful adult daughters that make me very proud. Both enjoy spending time with me. Fortunately I do get to see them almost daily. The eldest works for corporate America and has since graduation, while the youngest is a stay-at-home mom and does volunteer work. I have invested much into the next generations.

  330. I got to pile on Rutherford and I also have to add I can’t believe we’re so stuck in this particular feedback loop.
    The ID thing is pretty much a myth on both sides.
    Whether the investigations were as diligent as they could’ve been everything I’ve seen describes cases of a person coming to the polls and misrepresenting themselves for the purpose of voting as near minuscule as you get. Further most of the fraudulent stuff seems o be centered in the absentee voting sphere. That there are folks who manipulate that every election is pretty undeniable.
    As for the other side of the coin the liberal mindset that acquiring an ID is akin to Mission Impossible is a lie and quite frankly an ignorance you should be eager to hold yourself above.

  331. Ted Cruz is a smart candidate and I think it telling of his coming campaign where and how he opened it. Liberty University like a modern televangelist self help guru.
    I don’t know if I could vote for him.

  332. I think 37%EV turnout kind of shows that whatever ideas were on display they didn’t really matter.
    I offered my earlier comment because I felt the despair rabbit was offering because I’ve heard that elsewhere.
    We do get a lot of platitudes tossed at us as citizens/voters and those are presented as ideas but I don’t see them as such. I see them as mostly the base appeasing scrapes politicians always toss out.
    Its amazing and maddening and saddening just how much chatter and genuine thought swirls about the various pools of pressing topics.
    I wonder if we’re so disconnected and partisan we can’t ever hope to get anything done,and I’m talking important stuff.

  333. I’ll add this grenade to the room on the topic of ideas…
    I think there are good and bad ideas on both sides and not unlike that GE commercial a lot of those good ideas get looked and dumped upon and quite frankly snuffed instead of getting the fair chance to develop.

  334. Idea: Redistribution of wealth is good and fair

    Huh? Share the wealth is an idea.

    You do realize that you could drive a small planet between those two, right?

    By their very natures, much is implied, most of it contradictory, in those operative words which you casually use as if they were interchangable..

    The first is honest, as it describes exactly what you believe in. That what has been earned by another is yours to have government do with as you see fit.

    The second is how it is sold to the indolent, the envious, and the intellectually shallow. That for government to decide how to spend what belongs to others is a voluntary act, excusing the advocate and the recipient from ever questioning the efficacy or morality of government deciding who to “help”, how to do it, and to what degree. While this arrangement has served government, and a certain political party well, it has done very little to break a shameful cycle of multigenerational dependence and entitlement.

    And as for your “handy” refutation of my ID statement:

    I know plenty of elderly people who fly…frequently.

    I worked for a bank for 3 years. You don’t open an account or cash a check without ID.

    I worked in a grocery store for 5 years. The time of day never mattered. If you did not KNOW the person buying cigs or booze, you carded. Everytime. The fines matter, they are progressive, and your job was at stake if you didn’t check, because the store’s license to sell was also at stake.

  335. I know plenty of elderly people who fly…frequently.

    Do you know how silly that is? Did I say elderly don’t fly? My dad flew right up until the week before he died at 83 years of age.

    The point was some elderly (not insignificant in number) don’t fly. And if I were to concede (which I don’t) that folks never get away with buying booze and cigs without getting carded (which isn’t fed law so it varies state to state) there are folks (like me) who neither drink nor smoke. So, again your example is phooey.

    Next, I didn’t bring up redistribution of wealth as a debate topic. I simply was saying it is akin to Tex’s “free stuff” and it is a fundamental economic idea.

  336. As to the matter of ID in my state to get one is as simple as going to the DMV. However one must be able to produce one proof of state residency and one proof of legal presence in US and this is when the complexity sets in.At least my state has allowances for people born before 1937.

    The answer will eventually be similar to obtaining a social security number which is now required at birth. I think we are the only country that does not require “papers” to exist. Eventually an ID needs to be a Federal issue such as a passport and then the issue of voter ID will be a moot one except proving you live in the state in which you are voting.

  337. Gorilla, cool your irons. My wise ass comment to Rabbit was not intended to spark a discussion of bigotry.

    I’m perfectly happy to agree with your model and rephrase my comment as “Let’s keep it 100. If more white bigots had voted to outnumber the black bigots and McCain had been installed, wouldn’t you (Rabbit) have been happy?”

    Since you brought up racism as “feeling superior” yeah – a lot of blacks sadly, secretly believe whites are superior so those blacks are indeed racists. 😉

  338. Sadly, I don’t think Cruz’s candidacy matters, other than he will likely serve to take the heat and the lightning strikes of off others in the field, up to and including the eventual nominee.

    It didn’t take a genius to see that the nastiest and most damaging criticisms would be coming from those who consider themselves to be “on the right”, and the last 24 hours in my Facechimp stream haven’t failed to disappoint on this point. I know that many of these same people will be the ones remarking on his hubris being his motivation for running in the first place, and that he would be just as happy to let them continue to say it. He knows the likelihood that he’ll could end up with a presstitute spelunking through his wife’s uterus like Andrew Sullivan did with Sarah Pallin. It’s insane to do this if you don’t have the right political leanings as far as the media is concerned.

  339. I think the idea discussion has gotten nit picky. Platitudes are billboards for ideas. Platitudes don’t exist in a vacuum.

    When Ted Cruz screams “Liberty” either you dismiss it or you ask the follow up: what ideas lie behind his cries of Liberty? (I don’t know why my iPhone keeps capitalizing Liberty … must be a conservative phone).

    I go back to my original premise. Every election is about ideas, philosophies, on how we run this country. Folks here may think the liberal philosophy (or idea) is bankrupt but it is still a philosophy.

    To latch onto a point I think Raji made, the fault is that there isn’t sufficient thought (thinking) invested in the war of ideas. It often degenerates into tossing word salad at each other.

  340. I agree with the pundits that Ted Cruz serves the purpose of pulling Bush to the right.

    The same goes for the draft Warren campaign. No chance of winning but a leftward tug on HRC.

  341. @ Rutherford: Two things
    Actually the Feds did enact a control mechanism on the drinking age. 1984 a law was passed that declared 21 was the number and states that failed to comply were punished via federal highway funds.
    Elderly people have a mountain of ways to obtain an ID. I did a quick trek through three states this AM. TX,SC &GA. I picked these states for a couple of reasons not the least of which was a history of vote blocking.
    TX is pretty cut and dry but my quick search didn’t show any free access. Still they have voting like other states where you cast a provisional.
    SC was very progressive. Free with a slew of eligible documents you can use.
    GA I didn’t see a fee schedule but they had a set up not unlike SC. GA was looked at given a recent case of an 89 y/o black woman who was born in NY. She has been getting the run around and it was picked up in the news. The reports would lead you to believe she has the ultimate “punt” document but to no avail. I think she either has the wrong doc from SSA or there is a major customer service interaction fail thing happening.
    Seriously though any elderly person in the USA that can get out to play bingo,go to church,get some sun on the ole liver spots and of course actually GO VOTE can get out and get an ID. Again any belief that this is not so is an ignorant myth.

  342. Rutherford you will never ever cease to amaze me. Perhaps its because I hail from the Northeast and that I’ve gone to college,served in the military and have been scanned,probed and vetted for my past & present employment. I am flummoxed how anyone can believe We the People are somehow not required to have “papers”.

  343. ”Whether the investigations were as diligent as they could’ve been everything I’ve seen describes cases of a person coming to the polls and misrepresenting themselves for the purpose of voting as near minuscule as you get. Further most of the fraudulent stuff seems o be centered in the absentee voting sphere. That there are folks who manipulate that every election is pretty undeniable.”

    Voter Fraud is the perfect crime.

    1) Bu its very nature it’s impossible for you to know the scope of voter fraud.
    2) It’s easy. Register fake voters with real addresses. You keep records, you win.
    3) It’s organized. (Also not centered in absentee voting, at least not around here).
    4) It’s very hard to get caught.
    6) It’s even harder and $$$ to prosecute.
    7) It can be all but eliminated with a photo ID, but Dems like it the way it is.

    This new tack of Rutherford’s that I must figure out a way to “get” everyone an ID is bullshit and everyone knows it. It’s right up there with the despicable “it’s racist” and everyone knows that too.

  344. I think Ted Cruz is hoping to be the Dark Horse candidate in 2016. I think he is enough like Obama to be willing to play the influencer role and bow out for reasons he can pin on assorted things other than himself. The flip side of that is I think he holds out hope that he excites enough base and funds to survive. He’s in a win/win in my eyes and I think he’s the only one winning in that equation.

  345. I’ll add on. I think Rubio and Christie are effectively out now. The former doesn’t even have a real reason to hope for VP slot and Christie is and has been DOA for a while.
    Jeb Bush will come in and will likely come in exactly as his history dictates. He won’t be pulled right by Cruz.
    Walker is in and will play to the base.
    I think if these three headliners declare early enough the lower tier will have no rea$on to consider entry.

  346. “Do you know how silly that is? Did I say elderly don’t fly?”

    Yeah. Ya did. When you so ably demonstrated that nothing in BiC’s list flies.

    “Board a plane – the poor and elderly don’t fly.”

  347. Yeah I look at the field and I can’t see how the ones not taking a more serious pose can hope the current 3-4 obvious ones somehow completely burn out.
    Jeb Bush can only come in as he is,any motion to the right lacks credibility and I think everyone knows it.

  348. “Platitudes don’t exist in a vacuum.” -R

    Yes They Can!

    Alfie re: Rubio, Christie, Cruz and Bush, I am in total agreement.

  349. I am flummoxed how anyone can believe We the People are somehow not required to have “papers”

    Are you saying we already are required in some form or fashion?

    I’m speaking to the notion that Americans resist “show me your papers” from a persecution phobia source.

    A prime example are 2nd amendment junkies who fear any sort of “tracking” will culminate in confiscation of guns.

  350. @Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere , March 24, 2015 at 12:07 pm

    I wholly agree with this comment.

    I mentioned earlier in the thread before I was tasked with getting everyone IDs that “The Republican party needs to decide if they want the voter that stayed home or wants to stay mad at him/her. I guess that depends too on who you think stayed home.”

    Republicans look at the voter that stayed home and dumps on them for not being fired up by Romney or McCain. Really.

    Obama looks at the voter that stayed home and he puts on some Marvin, lights a few candles, opens a bottle of wine and pours her a glass, and asks her if she ever thinks about having kids.

  351. @ Muffy I think voter ID is a great idea but I don’t think its a cure all. Although overall I think it’ll stabilize the legitimacy in many corners I think given the laundry list of eligible ID’s and Americans can do attitude fake ID’s will keep the insistent law breakers voter.Hell it could be an even worse scenario.

  352. “Clearly Muffy I need to start staying stuff VERY carefully since you folks want to take stuff literally that obviously shouldn’t be taken literally.”

    How about you stop allowing your narratives to evolve as you go along?

  353. A prime example are 2nd amendment junkies who fear any sort of “tracking” will culminate in confiscation of guns.

    Rutherford, I know you like to poo-poo this idea, despite the fact that leftist candidates often provide fapping points for the GFWs in their base by talking about confiscation, and occasionally pass laws authorizing it (California’s confiscations from some veterans and Vermont’s law requiring seizure from people who refused to submit and voluntarily register certain firearms, or the “Widow trap” backdoor registry of firearms tucked away in the back pages of the initiative banning most transfers without Federal background checks passed here in the last election cycle, or the law that keeps cropping up in our legislature authorizing in county sheriffs to enter private residences without warrants to “makes sure that registered firearms are safely stored”) but given the actual history, it isn’t exactly an unreasonable concern.

  354. “@ Muffy I think voter ID is a great idea but I don’t think its a cure all. Although overall I think it’ll stabilize the legitimacy in many corners I think given the laundry list of eligible ID’s and Americans can do attitude fake ID’s will keep the insistent law breakers voter.Hell it could be an even worse scenario.”

    Fair enough but all a fake voter has to do if they are caught with a utility bill that isn’t theirs is say they must have opened someone else’s bill by mistake or found it on the ground by the mailbox. Oopsies. They’ll be booted from the building and that’s about it.

    It’s harder to say a fake picture ID isn’t yours.

  355. One historian has noticed the similarities between Obama and Cruz. He may not lie as much, but we don’t need an idealogue who won’t compromise. We need someone like him to hurt Democrats in debates and to expose them when they are lying. He can do that in Congress.

    Yes, both sides have good ideas. However, if Hillary or Warren run, I will not only vote for Cruz, I will contribute money for the first time since Reagan.

    No voter ID is not perfect, but it is better than nothing. We need papers for everything else.

  356. He may not lie as much, but we don’t need an idealogue who won’t compromise.

    The problem is that to Dems, “compromise” means “do it my way”, 8 times out of 10, and on the other 2, it ends up being an exercise where they give up a throwaway and Boener and Co can strut around like they actually accomplished something while the larger trend continues in the wrong direction.

  357. I have to agree with you in today’s world. That still makes Ted Cruz and others like him valuable if they slow or stop Republican capitulation.

  358. Anyone here ever bounce at a door? I just have visions of McLovin’s voting all over the place.

    Yes, in college. We had two guys in the frat who were brothers who were members at the same time.

    One day, a kid showed up when little brother was on the door at the dive bar we hung out at. He produced an ID with his pic, but all the information was big brother’s. Little brother called big brother over and showed him. Instead of beating the kid senseless, we bought him a beer for his cojones, and made it clear that when he finished it, he was never to darken the door again.

    Good times, good times.

  359. I saw that the President’s Chief of Staff thought it appropriate to get his undies in a bunch about Bibi’s assertion that there won’t be a Paloswinian state on his watch.

    It would be funny if it weren’t so damn tragic that the same administration that crows about its success in Yemen, and which made a hash out of Egypt and issued a red line in Syria that it walked back seems to think it has a say in Israeli policy.

  360. Did you also see how Bibi has walked back both of his controversial statements?

    Again, you guys have defended the words of someone who isn’t even willing to defend them, himself.

    As long as we’re forking out over $3 billion a year to Israel, you’re damn right we’ve got a say in Israeli policy. And Bibi knows he has to pay at least some lip service to our influence if he wants to keep sucking on the American taxpayer’s teet.

  361. A win of sorts for Walker as SCOTUS has declined to hear the case of WI voter ID law.
    It is alleged up to 300k people somehow can’t get the free ID the state provides yet we’re to believe they get to the polling place and are disenfranchised on any given Tuesday.
    Population of WI 5.7 million w around 3.4 million reg. voters

  362. How about you stop allowing your narratives to evolve as you go along?

    Actually this latest elderly flying thing tips me to why you think my narratives evolve.

    Usually, near the beginning of an argument when I’m fired up I tend to talk in extremes. I’ll say something like “the elderly don’t fly” when I mean to say “many elderly don’t fly”. It’s a matter of my talking/writing in bursts. It never occurs to me that any smart person on the other end would ever think I really meant “no elderly people fly”. The sad thing is how little credit I get here that folks would think me stupid enough to say “no elderly people fly”.

    Tigre, go back and look at some of the “evolving narratives” and I bet you’ll find that they start with my making an extreme statement and then later when my emotions have calmed, I moderate.

  363. BiC I won’t argue the validity of 2nd amendment paranoia (at least not in this thread) but I’m just pointing out to Alfie there is a contingent that wants as few “papers” with their names on it as possible. Hell there’s a club of folks who find the census sinister.

  364. @ Rutherford since you mentioned me directly I’ll say this. I think the contingent of folks who don’t like the whole “paper trail” thing have a proper level of folks amongst them who are front and center on voter ID. Its one of those ironies of human nature.

  365. ”Usually, near the beginning of an argument when I’m fired up I tend to talk in extremes. I’ll say something like “the elderly don’t fly” when I mean to say “many elderly don’t fly”. It’s a matter of my talking/writing in bursts. It never occurs to me that any smart person on the other end would ever think I really meant “no elderly people fly”. The sad thing is how little credit I get here that folks would think me stupid enough to say “no elderly people fly”.”

    I don’t think you meant that no elderly people fly. You said that you didn’t SAY it.

    BIC: “I know plenty of elderly people who fly…frequently.”

    Rutherford: “Do you know how silly that is? Did I say elderly don’t fly? My dad flew right up until the week before he died at 83 years of age.”

    So yea, you said the elderly don’t fly. Whether you meant it or not isn’t the issue.

    Your narrative evolved no less than 2+ separate times during the voter ID back and forth.

    “Cigs and booze – only those whose age is questionable ever get carded” evolved into no way in hell would some college kid @ 7-11 card a grey haired geezer buying smokes at 1 in the morning.

    “Pools if we’re lucky, our children always make us look better than we are” morphed into “And if you don’t think there is an element of luck to raising a successful child then it’s pretty clear you’re either childless or VERY full of yourself.”

    Which I don’t, by the way. Ass.

    So yeah, you calm down and modify and pull back on extremes like everyone else, but you also shape your story as the conversation wears on in a desperate attempt to salvage a point which eludes you. I think you’ve admitted as much.

    Nothing wrong with me or anyone else for pointing it out.

  366. “Tigre, go back and look at some of the “evolving narratives” and I bet you’ll find that they start with my making an extreme statement and then later when my emotions have calmed, I moderate.”

    No. They start with you repeating MSNBC, being wrong, getting slammed, then trying to save face. Just like now.

    Now, for third time, did the GOP win on the battle of ideas in November?

  367. Muffy I’ll give you two out of three but I won’t give you the “luck” example.

    1) Pools threw a gratuitous insult at Tex and I felt I was countering it. You’re so wed to the idea that Pools and I are in cahoots (particularly against you) that you couldn’t see the comment for what it was. So you jump in with snark and your boyfriend Tex (who’s “known” me longer) buys it. Pisses me off.

    2) I meant EXACTLY what I said and didn’t morph a damn thing. Luck plays a huge role in raising children. Kids are more wholly formed than we give credit for. My luck is a kid with a pretty level head. That’s her, not me. And that observation doesn’t take away from the hard work parenting is. But parenting only goes so far.

    If Tex weren’t so busy making googly eyes at you he’d be the first to admit what a lucky man he is. He’s said as much over the years.

  368. “And if you don’t think there is an element of luck to raising a successful child then it’s pretty clear you’re either childless or VERY full of yourself.”
    Which I don’t, by the way. Ass.

    You don’t feel there is an element of luck? Are you serious?

  369. Now, for third time, did the GOP win on the battle of ideas in November?

    Sorry I really did mean to answer that. I was distracted by Muffy. 🙂

    Yes, particularly in the Senate, the GOP won the war of ideas in 2014. And Obama has said “fuck you, I don’t care”.

  370. Jon Stewart made a great point that after promising the crowd he’d protect them from prying government eyes, Ted Cruz asked the crowd to give up their cell phone numbers to some subscription service “text constitution to 33733”. LOL

    Ted’s such a card.

  371. Alfie reading your predictions makes me think you forgot 2012. Everyone with a sliver of a chance save Palin and Trump jumped into that race.

    I have no reason to think we won’t see 8 or 9 GOP debaters in September.

  372. “You poor guy. Just can’t let that one go. It’s almost pathological.”

    Too bad I watch MSNBC for the laughs. I know. We know. 😉

  373. I think you and I have a different opinion on slivers. Hell I think there will obviously be wind chages but keep in mind that until Romney officially bagged money was tight. I think as elections get costlier the big stage events will be screened downwards.
    The GOP isn’t anywhere near finalizing the planks it’s going to pretend to run on and the world has cards up its sleeve we don’t know about. I still think early birds do themselves more good than harm now.
    FWIW I’m running through a number of folks I’ve decided I can’t vote for. In fact a surprise one made the list tonight in fact.

  374. Rutherford you mentioned that pundits find a declared Cruz a force that makes others tack right. Here’s a more credible thought. How many Rights get scared off due to Cruz being on the scene? Seriously how’s a Huckabee or Santorum supposed to compete?

  375. “And yes it is a war of ideas. We’ve debated this constantly on this blog.

    Idea: it is the government’s job to provide for the people.

    Idea: Redistribution of wealth is fair and just.

    Do I need to list more of them?”

    Seems you lost that.

    I’d like to see more of the ideas lost in the war. Please do continue. I love hearing what it takes to win something that was already won.

  376. “Are there any ideas in the political sphere that has anyone here excited,angered,curious etc ?”

    Yeah. Abolish the IRS and implementing a flat tax system.

  377. Too bad I watch MSNBC for the laughs.

    What should make you laugh or vomit in disgust is Al Sharpton having his own show. As an MSNBC fanboy I’ve never been able to wrap my mind around that.

  378. Seriously how’s a Huckabee or Santorum supposed to compete?

    I think in 2012, Santorum proved he had some gravitas and when all the votes were properly tallied, he won Iowa.

    I don’t think a whipper snapper like Cruz will scare off Santorum. Huckabee gave up a lucrative deal to run. I don’t think he gets spooked either. One also has to remember in how much disdain Cruz is held among his own colleagues. I think the road for him is bumpy as hell and I think Huckabee and Santorum think so too.

    The question I have is what niche can Ben Carson carve out?

  379. “Tigre it is indeed interesting to see which wars are won and lost on a congressional vs presidential scale.”

    Ideas. Ideas are won, Rutherford. 😆

  380. Seems the same GOP congress that isn’t “for” something is the party of ideas.

    What else you got on that list R? Mocking your self-delusion may never get tired.

  381. Hill-arious.

    The machine isn’t even going to give you a choice. You get this bold faced liar, this unethical crone. And you all fall in line.

  382. Muffy doubt if you like but I find this near tragic.

    Back in 2008 I was so pleased my Dad was going to live to see a black man become POTUS. Ironically Dad never liked BO. Said he reminded him of Malcolm X which was not a compliment. I was too caught up in the moment.

    Now we are again facing an historic election and my mind is much clearer. Hillary’s coronation disturbs me greatly. I can only hope Webb and some others have the courage to step up. Still there may be no stopping her.

    I thought she was toast but the email thing is already fading. Scary times.

  383. Every now and then it is interesting to LISTEN to a Palestinian. I watched a Palestinian permanent observer to the UN on Meet the Press. He said there was a time Bibi wouldn’t negotiate because he said the head of the PA was not representing all of Palestine. Now Bibi says he won’t negotiate because the PA has formed a coalition with Hamas and is therefore a terrorist state.

    To hear this UN rep, Palestine just can’t win. Bibi won’t deal with a politically split Palestine nor a unified Palestine.

    I admit I don’t get all the ins and outs of it but on its face, the Palestinian’s point seemed compelling.

  384. Are there any ideas in the political sphere that has anyone here excited,angered,curious etc ?- Alfie

    Actually No and that is a sad state of affairs, isn’t it?

    “Nothing wrong with me or anyone else for pointing it out.”- Muffy

    And sometimes there is “Much Ado About Nothing” in the pointing. IMO It’s Rutherford’s passion that keeps this blog alive.

  385. Betsy’s Page tells us the administration and some Republicans are angry because Israel was caught spying on the US and the Iranian negotiations. Israel says they got the information from other sources. The US learned about the leak by spying on Israel. The Israelis are sending some of what they learned to the US Congress because Obama wants them in the dark.

    You need to learn what Palastinians have actually done and said about Israel and and its existence. BiBi may be basing his actions on what he regards as a threat. I don’t have time to look for details, but you might.

    Arabs in Israel are not all anti-government. One Arab said he remembered that his home was a cave he shared with his goats. Now, he asks his daughter what color of wall paper she wants in her room.

    Raising children, running a business or government or even our existence is partly luck. Of course, we can make our own luck if we prepare ourselves and are ready to seize an opportunity, but luck is still a factor.

    Had my wife and I not survived being hit by a train or if we had been seriously injured, our grand daughter would have been a different person today. We are here in part because we were lucky, and my reflexes were fast. Mostly, it was luck.

  386. Since Israel cannot have a one state solution due to disparities in birth rates alone the two state is the only option. Truth is Netanyahu has supported the two state solution time and time again.The Israeli Right needs the other state for reasons Im not gonna restate here. There is something to be said that the PA isn’t the best neighbor but reality dictates they are there and there to stay.

  387. I have three “ideas from November” in mind but I’m not seeing how any of them have been moved forward or even nurtured really. What won in November again?

  388. Alfie, it was a good article. However what in the Sam HILL did the article really have to do with Warren except create a headline that draws attention. Yes, news presented in this manner pisses me off even if it is informative:

    “The growth in regulation is clear evidence that we have become an over-governed society as more and more groups turn to the federal government to meet “society’s needs.” And Congress and the executive branch are all too willing to satisfy those needs because it gives the bureaucracy more power and Congress more resources to provide the pork that helps members get reelected. In the process, we are sewing the seeds of ruin.”

  389. Well Raji I think it unfortunate that the writer assumes as much as he does. People familiar with Warren know what she advocates and contrary to being a foe of crony capitalism she is in fact an enabler at minimum and avid supporter at worse

  390. I agree with Ragj. The other blog illustrates the effects of the end of passion. I am passionate about further reducing the power of progressives or whatever else they call themselves, but that is a negative passion.

  391. To hear this UN rep, Palestine just can’t win. Bibi won’t deal with a politically split Palestine nor a unified Palestine.

    The U.N.? Is that parody? The same U.N. that had Libya, Cuba, Iran and the like sitting on its Human Right’s Commission? The same U.N. caught raping girls in the Congo? Or stealing bread from the mouth of babes while funneling graft to Saddam? The U.N. is the most anti-Zionist organization on the planet – buffoons made up of Poolman type rubes with money.

    Are you even remotely aware that in 2000, 2001 and 2008 — three peace offers were made and every one rejected. Yasser Arafat was offered everything he demanded and even offered to be allowed to call Jerusalem as Palestinian capital – and walked away. Why? Because his own people would have killed him.

    Are you really stupid enough to believe Palestinians seek peace? Yuck, yuck, yuck. You’re hopeless, man. You need a Snicker’s Bar, or something.

    Remember this…why any of you have this unholy alliance with terrorists and can’t see the most obvious truth is beyond me – even more so than you can’t see what a joke Obama was, is and always will be.

  392. Conservative ideology has won for the past two elections. It is why Democrats are becoming the party of old fools with no viable candidates except old fools.

  393. Truth is obvious and available to those who seek and recognize it. I won’t side with Goliath, no matter how they dress him as many others do. Regarding any ‘unholy alliance with terrorists’, we have them running the state…

  394. Poolman, LOL. You may the most transparent Christian bigot I know. You calling yourself Christian is like those Southern Poverty Law Center types calling themselves Christian.

    You missed your true calling. You should have been on the U.N. Human Rights Council.

    They too hate Jews, America, and Christians in about that order. 😀

  395. “And sometimes there is “Much Ado About Nothing” in the pointing. IMO It’s Rutherford’s passion that keeps this blog alive.” -raji

    Rutherford’s passion is not under fire, and is also appreciated by others besides yourself. But thanks for letting me know you’ve had enough.

    If Rutherford’s going to prance around crowing about how “it is a war of ideas. We’ve debated this constantly on this blog,” and then proceed to punk out of exchanges about ideas with jive – then I’m going to decide for myself what I want to do about it each time.

    —Support for voter ID requirements is RACIST. Anyone, including Rutherford, who says so should see that argument shredded. Every time. IMO.
    —The left pushes for stricter gun control and hypocritically wants to keep things the way they are when it comes to electing our government officials. Works both ways.
    —Voter fraud is a “non-existent crime.” This too should not go unchallenged. Most often it does.

  396. —IDs are too hard to get for some people. This is nonsense, especially when it comes out of the same mouth that claims that voter fraud is non-existent.

  397. Voter fraud has already decided elections from Landslide Lyndon’s run for the House to Kennedy’s victory after the Chicago machine helped him. Nixon was statesman like by refusing to challenge the election results, but it is possible he didn’t want it be known that Republicans may have been stealing votes down state. Voter ID will at least dampen the suspicion of fraud in close elections.

  398. “Are you even remotely aware that in 2000, 2001 and 2008 — three peace offers were made and every one rejected. Yasser Arafat was offered everything he demanded and even offered to be allowed to call Jerusalem as Palestinian capital – and walked away”

    Several things wrong with this statement.

    1) Yasser Arafat died in 2004, so it would have been fairly difficult for him to reject a 2008 offer.

    2) the 2008 offer was rejected on multiple grounds. It did not include a return to the 1967 borders and it did not remove all of the settlement. In short—it was not an offer that met “everything” being demanded. (For the record, I think this deal should have been given more consideration). That deal also required the PA to root Hamas out of Gaza, which would have been impossible. “But another Israeli official said Olmert was merely trying to establish his legacy. “There is going to be no agreement, period,” he said on condition of anonymity.” There’s more in the article that shows the “everything” claim is inaccurate. Anyone truly interested in facts can read it.

    A different article on the matter has this to say: “But Olmert also lays the blame for the breakdown in negotiations at the feet of then foreign minister Tzipi Livni and then defense minister Ehud Barak. Olmert cites former US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice’s book No Higher Honor in which she says that Livni came to her and Abbas separately asking them that they not “enshrine” Olmert’s peace proposal. Olmert also said to Sof Hashavua that Barak sent representatives to Abbas to tell the Palestinian leader not to accept his proposal.”

    3) The 2000 offer was also not “everything” being demanded. Israel was still going to keep 20% of the West Bank and much of Jerusalem. The West Bank portions that were to be “given” to the Palestinians were barely connected to each other, essentially isolating each of them, with huge settlements and walls in between. This would not have been a very good final deal for the Palestinians to accept.

    4) The 2001 talks were based, primarily, on the 2000 negotiations. There was a bit more flexibility being shown by Israel, but the talks broke down pretty quick because Barak didn’t pursue them, probably because he was dealing with an election, that he ultimately lost. The victor was the Likud Party, then headed by Ariel Sharon. Sharon did pull Israel out of Gaza, but that was in 2004-5. And I think it’s safe to say that pullout benefited Israel a lot more than it did the PA.

    Tex would know all of this if he cared to actually learn, rather than parrot some bullshit he spent 2 minutes Googling. Notice that his comment is so disjointed that he posts a video of a group of people celebrating the attacks against the US to support his claim that Palestinians, as a whole, don’t want peace with Israel. He is absolutely devoid of rational and clear thought on the matter.

    The truth is–neither side goes to the table truly looking to resolve the matter. Both are interested only in their own political survival. And in the case of Israel politicians, probably their own physical survival. Lest we forget the assassination of Yitzak Rabin by a Jewish settler after Rabin had the audacity to try a genuine peace deal with Palestinians.

    Yeah, there have certainly been bad elements that have worn the United Nations patch. But the UN, as a whole, can be easily defended with the phrase “they were not acting within the writings and ideas of the UN”, just as that same defense is constantly awarded to others around here.

  399. 1) Yasser Arafat died in 2004, so it would have been fairly difficult for him to reject a 2008 offer.

    Being the pedantic, inbred, ill educated in nothingness prick that you are, was it really necessary for me to specify exactly who the players were of each “negotiation” to make my point? Or does the fact Arafat walked in 2000/2001 do so? You accuse me of Googling (I didn’t) and then provide your own Googling with the attached links. Is this the idea of enlightened engagement you speak?

    Tex would know all of this if he cared to actually learn, rather than parrot some bullshit he spent 2 minutes Googling. Notice that his comment is so disjointed…blah blah blah)

    Huck? What are you, in your 40s? Tell me, inbred. If you’re so fucking smart and so worldly, why is in middle age, you now rank as a substitute teacher and struggle to afford NetFlix which last I looked cost $8.99 a month? Exactly what the fuck is supposed to impress me about your skill set?

    And since your skills so uncanny, perhaps you could please learn something about HTML, giant, to make your written lectures legible?

    Like I said previously when you didn’t make one attempt to answer any of my questions above though you invariably whine that I don’t debate you, if your tedious bullshit didn’t bore the hell out of me, I might bother to engage just to demonstrate what an utter phony, baloney you are.

    What you are is an apologist for terrorism and a world class Jew hater – indoctrinated in bullshit that probably put your worthless ass even further in debt for while the rest of us foot the bill for your healthcare – and banking on the ignorance of others. Just like academia…

    Let me demonstrate as example the Palestinian side Huck likes to market in my disjointed style. Everyone take a good look at what these Palestinian peace seekers are teaching their children. Then I dare anybody serious which rules out scholarly Huck, lecture me about just how serious these Palestinians are in “seeking peace.”

    I laid this one on scholarly Huck before, then Huck slithered off for about a week which is his habit. Perhaps he can justify this and show me the Israeli equivalent. Did I mention sponsored by the freely elected government of Palestine?

  400. Huck, did it burn your fat ass when Netanyahu won in dramatic fashion? LOL You’ve got a real problem, don’t you scholar? You don’t know who to root for now. Surrounded on all sides. On one side, you’ve got your “friend” Obama. On the other side, your innate Jew hating has got to win out.

    Must suck to be you at this moment. But then I suspect that makes up a lot of your moments. 🙂

  401. Shortening the thread in my inbox. US air power to initiate air strikes on Tikrig. This meant to help the Iraqi forces. The Iranians and Shiite militias are the backbone of the Tikrit operations

  402. Voter fraud is a “non-existent crime”

    Muffy, unless I misunderstood, Alfie agrees with this although you kinda sidestepped that fundamental fact in your exchange with him. I can pull his quote if need be, if I’ve misrepresented him.

  403. —IDs are too hard to get for some people.

    That’s a pretty broad statement. “Some” covers a lot of territory. Do you really want to deny that “some” people in “some” states might have difficulty getting an “acceptable” ID?

  404. Do you really want to deny that “some” people in “some” states might have difficulty getting an “acceptable” ID?

    Oooh oooh I do I do.
    Let me be as succinct as I can be. The effort it takes to register to vote and then to actually vote is equal to the act of acquiring an ID.

  405. @Rutherford – I answered Alfie in full @ March 24, 2015 at 12:25 pm. I kinda sidestepped nothing.

    Is your rebuttal that Alfie agrees with you?

  406. The effort it takes to register to vote and then to actually vote is equal to the act of acquiring an ID.

    Alfie didn’t you cite a case of an elderly woman who had difficulty obtaining a birth certificate required to obtain an ID?

    Now maybe you’re making the case that the number of folks put out is so insignificant that it doesn’t matter. But surely there are those who have to jump through hoops to get a valid ID and I can guarantee those doing the jumping don’t make six figure salaries. If you think it’s ok for that insignificant number to be disenfranchised then we’ve got an entirely different argument going.

  407. Yes I cited a case in Georgia of a woman who is somehow falling through the cracks. I also mentioned though that the reporting on her case seemed slanted that in my mind she either has the wrong form from SSA or her customer service/case worker is a singularly large butt head.
    This is a woman though born in 1924 in New York,raised elsewhere whose original birth certificate was destroyed somehow. Georgia has no records of her.
    The thing is though seeing as she is born before 1940 GA law specifically allows her to get her SS “numident” letter from SSA and then she gets FREE ID.
    I have no freaking ID what form her granddaughter got her hands on but its not the right one.
    I would also stip that she symbolizes the perfect storm example your side somehow believes is everywhere.

  408. Six figure salaries…. a stamp maybe. The same GOTV ride to the polls could/ should drive her to the town hall and or DMV. Seriously this notion people sit in their house at two year intervals only to come out to punch a f@#$ing chad on a November Tuesday is comical.

  409. I would also stip that she symbolizes the perfect storm example your side somehow believes is everywhere.

    Ok and that being the case, would you go the next step to say examples like hers are as small or smaller in number than instances of voter fraud – and then, if so, it justifies voter ID laws?

    My problem and that of the other paranoids is that this woman, perfect storm though she may be, is the economic demographic of those who would be adversely effected. We cannot enact voter ID laws without taking measures to protect women like her. And then we get to the question of whether she and others like her would likely vote democratic. And now you’ve got the full blown conspiracy theory.

  410. Just saw my first tornado form – right in front of my face, maybe three miles north of my own house. Got the video to prove it. Absolutely beautiful, absolutely terrifying. I stood there awestruck.

    My mother is trying to get to send it to the news – and chewing my ass out for standing outside filming it instead of running for cover. LOL

  411. “Let me be as succinct as I can be. The effort it takes to register to vote and then to actually vote is equal to the act of acquiring an ID.”

    Lol! That shit is real. And yes, my laugh was maniacal, fuckers. So true.

  412. I believe in the sanctity of the vote. I believe voter ID laws actually serve the individual voter as well as the collective act. Because of that even if fraud was truly zero I still want ID backed check in.

  413. That’s pretty crazy, Tex. Upload it to YouTube. I want to see. You can upload so only those with the link have access. Probably a pain in the ass, I know.

  414. @ Rutherford some of your other follow up falls on deaf ears with me.
    Seriously dude I’m the guy in the thread that supports compulsory voting.
    I don’t care who people vote for. Like taxes I want everyone pushing the car up the hill.

  415. Honor and distinction.

    We traded 5 of their stink beards for that cunt.

    Execute Bergdhal. Susan Rice needs to mocked for the rest of her life.

  416. From the WAPO:

    <

    blockquote> Critics — and an independent review by the Government Accountability Office — said President Obama broke the law in authorizing the release of five Taliban detainees held by the United States in exchange for Bergdahl without consulting Congress. Maybe you finally have your impeachment fodder? “Broke the law” is pretty tough language.

    As for Bergdahl, very likely a crackpot. If insanity is a defense for desertion, I think he may have a case.

  417. Frankly I’m shocked Pools hasn’t called the German jet crash a false flag event yet. Hell, I’m not a conspiracy nut and even I’m amazed at how fast they found the CVR among the scattered wreckage in difficult mountain terrain.

  418. They too hate Jews, America, and Christians in about that order.

    Somehow I insulted Jews in my morning commentary. Maybe from posting warnings by a Jew against the NWO? 🙄 Or maybe the Gollum Sachs mention? SPLC is mostly Jewish, right? Of course they aren’t Christian. I’m beginning to think you really don’t see a difference. There is a vast difference between Christians and Judaics. Christians are an enemy to Judaics. We are a threat to their faith and is reason why it is illegal to evangelize in Israel. So go visit the ‘holy land’ and support the state, but keep Jesus to yourself. Check you freedom of religion at the border.

    BTW, I read another interesting tidbit. The NAACP was supposedly begun by Jewish lawyers. Is that racist or anti-semitic? Truth makes no distinction.

  419. Frankly I’m shocked Pools hasn’t called the German jet crash a false flag event yet.

    Shocked? Pretty dramatic of you there fella. Too early to call. There’s no obvious motive or benefactor. Somewhat mysterious regarding the non communication, but looks to be a tragic accident on the surface.

  420. So Rutherford. What do you really think of this Brergdahl trade? How’s that Rose Garden event looking in retrospect to the Left now?

    That is a serious question, by the way. You’re usually out in front of the spin and I’m curious how you see it.

  421. There will be no Bergdahl talk. We have a squirrel. . .er. . . plane crash.

    But I’ll be watching the Obama channel to see what the spin is. . .

  422. The Bergdahl story is D.O.A. but sadly it looks like some in the G.O.P. will waste political capital to make hay.
    He’s going to be tried and whatever the verdict is it is a spinnable win for the Oval.
    Statistically the numbers are far from worthy of the doomsday hysteria. January 09 to Jan 14 82 out of Gitmo. 5 confirmed reengaged,2 suspected. This is the pre T5 release numbers but it is the “science” the decision was based in.
    The law that was broken has in the Bergdahl case been declared unconstitutional by DoD. Whether that fight will be waged is yet to be seen. GAO’s report makes a very credible case that given the passing and signing of the law its constitutionality is implied.
    One way this will be spun with various obvious sub spins is that an American was returned and that no matter the value some place on him the principle is as Gen Dempsey makes is that the US won’t leave people behind.
    I don’t see the WH losing this one and I definitely don’t think the fight is in the best interests of the GOP or the country.

  423. Gawd, you are thick, albeit predictable. 😆
    Criticize the message source ✓
    Ignore the message ✓
    Move on ✓

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