Garner is not Brown

One of the problems when America has a “conversation about race” is we lump together people who have no business lumped together.

Eric Garner was killed in a chokehold by a Staten Island policeman. Not only does a video tell the tale, the coroner ruled Garner’s death a homicide. This means someone killed him. Yet today a grand jury decided not to bring charges against the police officer. At the time that he was confronted by police, Garner was selling loose cigarettes on the street. Yes, he was breaking the law but his take down was wildly out of proportion to his offense.

Makes you wanna holler right? Want to know why lots of folks won’t listen to your outrage? Because you and the left wing media just wasted gobs of time and energy over the justified shooting of a common criminal, Michael Brown. When you burn down stores over the death of a hood, caught on camera in a robbery, you lose ALL credibility.

Now, sadly, Eric Garner’s totally unnecessary death stands less chance to outrage because so called race hustlers can’t discern between the malicious and relatively benign within their own tribe.

The implications of Michael Brown’s elevation to hero and martyr run deep, not just in setting race relations backward but in achieving true justice for those deserving it.

What do you think? The bar is open.

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517 thoughts on “Garner is not Brown

  1. Garner was a huge guy and scared the pussy cops with no street smarts. They over compensated after creating a conflict that probably should have been deescalated. The big fellah resisted.

    The choke hold was wrong, but there is no way they wanted to hurt him, not alone kill him. Its not easy taking a guy down like that.

    On the other hand, they clearly wanted to bully him. Terrible job by them.

    Watching him die is key for me. There was no attempt to see what the hell was wrong with him.

    I think this time it is sadly a case of gross negligence. There just isn’t enough talented people to deal with the underclass.

    Even at my work, I see these challenges and conflicts between teachers and students/parents that need not exist. Why? Because half our staff reflects half the American population: one dimensional bores. Belkies.

    Side note. I used to sell illegal loosies inside of my Grandpa’s party store. The brothas got a kick out of me putting my little hand into the huge jar of Kool Milds.

    One of my earliest memories, actually.

    At the end of the day, dude resisted. This is a guy who has been arrested over 30 times.

    Grand jury got it right. It wasn’t criminal.

    A lawsuit is in order here.

  2. By the way, I have had those metal bracelets behind my back a few times.

    But how in the fuck does someone get arrested 30 times?

  3. I want to know why either incident is supposed to touch off a “discussion of race.”

    I asked in the last thread what evidence of racism other than the color of the cop and victim. No takers.

  4. I asked in the last thread what evidence of racism other than the color of the cop and victim. No takers.

    Unfortunately in a country steeped in racist history, that’s all you need – one white and one black.

    Race hustlers didn’t come out of the blue. They tap into very real insecurities.

  5. Huck, is that what the cop was charged with (involuntary manslaughter)? If so, I am scratching my head too. If it were more severe, I can see where an indictment would be hard to obtain.

  6. I don’t get your question to Huck. The cop was not charged with anything and I don’t think we know what the prosecutor recommended to the GJ.

    From what I understand this GJ did not have the leaks the Ferguson one did.

  7. I wasn’t even aware of this case until tonight. After watching the video, though it pains me to say so, I got to agree with Rutherford and come to much the same conclusion as The Rabbit.

    I have no doubt Michael Brown got what he deserved as he was a thug and a menace on the way to the pen. This Garner guy, I’m terribly uncomfortable with what I just saw. Yes the guy was a public nuisance. Yes, he was a low level crook. And yes, he resisted arrest and was a physical giant. But he didn’t deserve to die and shouldn’t have.

    The minute it became apparent he couldn’t breath, the cops should have sat him up. For the life of me, I don’t understand why this didn’t call for the ‘Don’t taze me Bro’ treatment. I hate the word homicide, as it lends intent to murder in my book – though I know I’m technically/legally wrong. I don’t think these cops even had the intent of hurting Garner, much less killing him.

    But this was negligent and horribly tragic. Garner shouldn’t be dead.

    Having said that, I’m also aware there is a huge push right now by the dregs of society, black and white, to delegitimize the entire legal system by these race hustlers.

    I’m no lover of cops as every occasion I’ve dealt with them has been bad. I’ve been a vocal critic on occasion of the legal system myself. I once got to eat my hood while in a suit for being accused of breaking and entering. I fought the system the right way – by getting the badge # and making the cop sweat with a written complaint. But cops are a necessary evil that were just thrown under the bus by that POS mayor in NYC.

    And right now, I wouldn’t blame cops across America just as I wouldn’t blame our military to say, “Screw it. I’m done. Let America Burn.”

  8. I don’t get what you don’t get. The prosecutor refers a list of charges to a GJ. Did it include involuntary manslaughter or not? If the prosecutor hasn’t said, then the answer is, “I don’t know.” It’s not a matter of leaks. The GJ has already rendered its decision. There’s nothing that I know of that prevents the prosecutor from disclosing his list of charges. Do you know of something different?

  9. To be perfectly fair, I don’t know a thing about what the prosecutor presented in the way of charges or evidence. I admit absolute ignorance on this, and am basing my uneducated opinion purely on those 2 points I mentioned.

    I just think using a banned choke hold is reckless, regardless of the reasons why it is being employed. If it were not banned, my opinion would be 100% different.

  10. Finally, someone at a high level who is not too politically correct to speak the truth that everybody knows:

    Guiliani: … ‘black-on-black crime was “the reason for the heavy police presence in the black community” and suggesting that “the danger to a black child … is another black.” In a heated exchange with Michael Eric Dyson, a noted Georgetown University professor and civil rights activist, Giuliani said, “the white police officers won’t be there if you weren’t killing each other.”‘

    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/11/rudy-giuliani-michael-brown-death-never-should-have-gone-to-a-grand-jury/383269/

    Note: Guiliani is, himself, a former prosecutor.

  11. “He recklessly causes the death of another person; or……”

    I don’t know if its “reckless” though. The guy was so big it seemed hard for the cop to get the proper choke hold on.

    It almost seems like a reasonable screw up.

  12. “Unfortunately in a country steeped in racist history, that’s all you need – one white and one black.”

    I just can’t get my head round the absurdity of this statement if it’s connected my question (why a need for a discussion — one that our duly elected president and his chief law enforcement officer have weighed in on and want to conduct which is incredibly fucked up).

    We have a country also steeped in a history tolerance. This presumption of racism and a so-called “discussion” is the most destructive thing I can think of to that. A “discussion” to foster and validate a climate of presumed racism in the absence of proof. is not worthy of consideration. This is all pure political manipulation. And it’s happening again in NY.

  13. DR, I get where you’re coming from, and the definition of “reckless” in criminal statute will be further refined (not always as intuitive as you might think depending on the circumstances), but boy oh boy, I’ve watched that video several times and I don’t see why an indictment wasn’t handed down. The best arguments for why it wasn’t involuntary manslaughter I’ve seen so far are suited for arguments to a jury following a trial, not indictment.

  14. Commissioner Gordon should have been the first one out there addressing this, not Holder and DeBlasio. Why no indictment?

    “Not only does a video tell the tale, the coroner ruled Garner’s death a homicide. This means someone killed him. Yet today a grand jury decided not to bring charges against the police officer. At the time that he was confronted by police, Garner was selling loose cigarettes on the street. Yes, he was breaking the law but his take down was wildly out of proportion to his offense.”

    “Homicide” doesn’t tell us a whole lot, since the term itself doesn’t constitute criminal acts. And as far as the take down not in proportion to the crime – the action to supress was a result not of selling loosies but of resisting arrest.

    The video is hard to watch, but I wonder if some of that is because we know what happened. We hear Gardner say “I can’t breathe” and we know those turn out to be his last words. What the cops hear when he says “I can’t breathe” is that he can breathe. Again from their training. I’m not even sure he died from asphyxiation – I haven’t heard that.

    Four or five officers on the scene, 400lb asthmatic Gardner is committing a crime albeit a minor one, cop says we’re taking you in, the big guy says something to the effect of “no you ain’t, this stops today,” and slaps the officers hands away.

    The chief lesson here is to do what the cops tell you, especially if there are 4 of them. Pay the price for your petty crime if you get caught. THAT’S FAIRNESS. Cops have assaulted women, shot old men reaching for their cane, clubbed white boys acting like Eminem, and so on. That doesn’t grant you license to flee or to resist or otherwise not comply when you’re confronted.

    I hear a lot lately about how blacks are afraid of the cops. Gardner didn’t look afraid. He looked like he’s learned that he doesn’t have to do what the cops tell him to, even if he’s breaking the law. It’s precisely the lack of fear as respect that is a proximal cause of some of the confrontations that go south.

    I do agree that there might well be an appropriate charge against the officer here, but I don’t know that. Rutherford complained about the prosecutor stirring up shit with too many details when it came to the Brown announcement. Now we know nothing but what the video tells us, and the video really doesn’t have any gaps or missing context. Still we need more information, as has been mentioned.

    What we don’t need are political opportunists sending the wrong messages and more people getting killed as a result.

    As a result.

  15. (Oh hell, italics fix please remove them all as I tried to do.)

    I’m thinking Uncle Pfester is straining to demonstrate that he didn’t read the Dyson-Juliani comments from the last thread so that way we will assume he didn’t read the other thread comments after calling me a liar and doesn’t know he got his ass handed to him again. Duplicitous old gasbag.

  16. Muffy, your comments re: Garner are good ones and I agree — for the most part.

    I agree that a cop can’t just walk away when someone tells him to piss off. He has to use force.

    I also agree that a cop must enforce the laws and use force — both are the raison d’etre.

    And I agree that knowing the outcome of the video makes for an unfair evaluation of the cop’s actions.

    I’d like to know a whole lot more about what was submitted to the GJ. However, my armchair opinion is that it sure did look to me like a bona fide fact question about whether the cop used excessive force resulting in the guy’s death is there. If so, that’s for a jury.

    What is totally inexcusable is our elected officials — Obama at the fore — creating a racial issue out of this and suggesting that there’s something that warrants a possible civil rights prosecution (a/k/a racially motivated killing). The fact that it’s tolerated and, in fact, encouraged by the douchebags that the likes that MSNBC sponsors, disgusts me to no end.

  17. Obama and Holder, along with the grievance hustlers, are much to blame for stoking the black and anarchist racism and hooliganism today, but the most abhorrent comment of last evening was by that useful idiot ‘Red Bill’ DeBlasio concerning the cops and racism.

    That just simply can’t go unpunished as an acting mayor. NYC has returned to her natural state after Giuliani cleaned it up for a time – a fascist, massively overtaxed, corrupt, colossally overrated jungle.

    NYC Police? Let that place go up and smoke and holster it while you watch. Let them Burn the B!tch Down.

  18. “I’d like to know a whole lot more about what was submitted to the GJ. However, my armchair opinion is that it sure did look to me like a bona fide fact question about whether the cop used excessive force resulting in the guy’s death is there. If so, that’s for a jury.”

    I can buy that, the operative word being excessive – which I disregarded (unintentionally).

  19. There’s nothing that I know of that prevents the prosecutor from disclosing his list of charges. Do you know of something different.

    Nope I’ll defer to you on this one. I thought all GJ proceedings were secret including charges sought but the prosecutor can ask a judge for permission to disclose any info.

  20. Bad, ain’t it Tigre? :twist: That witch is getting mocked all over America today for this pap. I guess they’ve all forgotten about Natalie Maines and the Dixie Chicks.

  21. “The Cleveland police officer under investigation for the fatal shooting of a 12-year-old boy last month resigned from his previous job as a police officer after his superiors determined he had emotional maturity issues, an inability to manage stress and “dismal” performance in firearms training, according to a 2012 personnel file made public Wednesday.”

  22. “In a letter dated Nov. 29, 2012, Independence Police Deputy Chief Jim Polak described Loehmann as “distracted and weepy” during a firearms qualification course the previous day. “He could not follow simple directions, could not communicate clear thoughts nor recollections, and his handgun performance was dismal,” Polak wrote in the letter to the city’s human resources director. “I am recommending he be released” from employment.”

    Rutherford, was that you at the gun range?

  23. What are we gonna do – charge him with immaturity?

    “In the park by the youth center, there’s a black male sitting on the swings. He’s wearing a camouflage hat, a gray jacket with black sleeves. He keeps pulling a gun out of his pants and pointing it at people.” -Police Dispatcher

    I’ll ask again – if the gun was real and Rice had reached for it, should the officer have fired his own weapon then?

  24. “I’ll ask again – if the gun was real and Rice had reached for it, should the officer have fired his own weapon then?”

    You answered your own question. The victim was black, so “no.”

  25. Rutherford, you don’t get it. What made Obama’s campaign unbeatable in terms of stench and vomit was the fact that you and millions of other ignorant rubes bought into it all.

    There were plenty of moments as pathetic as that country video. You would celebrate them here, remember?

  26. “You ought to have to watch that video Clockwork Orange style, Rutherford.”

    I’d rather Rutherford be in the scene with giant phallus.

  27. I’ll ask again – if the gun was real and Rice had reached for it, should the officer have fired his own weapon then?

    Officer’s history speaks to his state of mind when he shot the kid. I now question very seriously if kid reached for anything. If reports from prior job are accurate, dude had no business on the police force. A less “weepy” cop with better gun skills might have handled the situation differently.

    Or not.

  28. Tigre the video was painful enough without my eyes taped open. I swear, if Hillary gets the nomination I will turn into a friggin Rush Limbaugh so fast your head will spin. I will become the reincarnation of Breitbart. I simply cannot stand 4, much less 8 years of “that woman”, to quote one William Jefferson Clinton when referring to Monica Lewinsky.

  29. ” I now question very seriously if kid reached for anything. ”

    I got to be honest, I do too. You don’t get something like that in your records unless you are a SERIOUS fuck up. Weepy?

    No….you don’t bust him for being mature but you sure in the hell do a double take.

    It deserves more scrutiny. Now…for all we know this is exactly what has already happened. But I haven’t done my homework.

  30. “Officer’s history speaks to his state of mind when he shot the kid. I now question very seriously if kid reached for anything. If reports from prior job are accurate, dude had no business on the police force. A less “weepy” cop with better gun skills might have handled the situation differently.

    Or not.”

    Oh just answer the question, Mr. 680 on the verbal

    One more time –

    If the gun was real and Rice had reached for it, should the officer have fired his own weapon then?

  31. The silliness of Peter King and Muffy astounds me. When someone says “I can’t breathe” they mean “I am having trouble breathing”. OF COURSE they CAN breathe or they wouldn’t be able to talk. That is beside the point and asinine.

    “Uhhhh I waited until he stopped saying “I can’t breathe” and then I let go of his neck cos he stopped breathing.”

    When someone repeatedly says “I can’t breathe” at what point do you entertain that he might be in distress? You wait until he actually stops breathing? Yup, that’s exactly what the cop did.

    BTW some EMT workers were suspended after this tragedy because they didn’t do squat to save him.

  32. “Weren’t those the last words ever spoken by Ted Kaczynski?”

    I’ve asked it before….but exactly when was it that you libs lost your granola?

  33. “The silliness of Peter King and Muffy astounds me.”

    You talkin’ to me? If so, I was referring tor Rice and “the police force.”

    Now are you going to answer Muffy’s question or dissemble/ignore?

  34. While you’re thinking about that, listen to this psycho shit again with the speakers turned all the way up. You created this and should have to listen to it for eternity:

  35. “The silliness of Peter King and Muffy astounds me. When someone says “I can’t breathe” they mean “I am having trouble breathing”. OF COURSE they CAN breathe or they wouldn’t be able to talk. That is beside the point and asinine.”

    Says the man who dared speak out loud the indomitable rationale that “Unfortunately in a country steeped in racist history, that’s all you need – one white and one black.”

    Beside what point exactly?

    To suggest that the officer was following his training to subdue a gentle giant that won’t comply may be why case studies examining the use of restraint in police custody and when it goes wrong continue to be done. They must not realize that such studies are beside the point and asinine.

  36. Fun fact: Black female police sergeant oversaw the Garner takedown.

    This was of course the product of centuries of racism.

  37. “Comply or Die” is not anything the Founders envisioned but it has for right or wrong become codified.

    Garner’s death is grotesquely misjudged when deemed a homicide. In fact the further details of the very report that called it a homicide states that basically Pickwickian Syndrome ,combined with a history of asthma actually served as the cause of death.
    Was the level of force “appropriate”? This is a nonsense question as is calling the cop a pussy. If the real question is should law and order be practiced without regards of color,creed and zip code lets just say that any answer other than “ABSOLUTELY” negates your standing.
    That said, complaints by citizens and long standing NYPD policy lead to the eventful encounter on Staten Island that day. The cop should’ve waited for back up and if fatboy failed to comply at that time non lethal assets such as CS or TASER should’ve been deployed.
    Bottom line the cop should face departmental repercussions but the Grand Jury was correct in their decision.
    The Rice case is getting the full monty press of dumb and the only thing that should be under the magnifying glass is perhaps only being reviewed by the CPD. The latest stroke of stupid is the spinning of the officers prior employment stint in Independence.
    When I look at the video some of the things I see that raised my eyebrows and dismay are as follows:
    The police contrary to some spin made it a point to take a potentially dangerous call from another unit since they were clearing and the location was in fact in their patrol sector. Anybody that has had any connection to 911 work knows this to be admirable for its professionalism.
    The police rolled up pretty hot. In my opinion too hot. It is pretty clear that one or up to the reported three commands to drop the weapon came from inside the vehicle. I have not heard or seen anything that leads me to believe this was over the cars PA system,just a shouting cop.
    The officers exited the vehicle after firing and rolled out. One towards the rear of the cruiser one towards the front thus acquiring a cross fire angle. Two points here. Contrary to the new spin that Loehmer [sp?] is some wussy weeping turd he showed a coherent display of training. The big thing for me though and awkwardly touched on by Rutherford earlier is…
    Many departments in the USA would not have the officers respond hot like they did. On the walkway and coming so close to the suspect.The CPD has publicly stated that questioning this was in fact a good question. I believe it would’ve been best practice to have stopped somewhat farther,drawn weapons and sighted the kid and preferably over the PA command Rice to put his hands up. When a weapon is in the hands of a suspect you tell them to drop it. When it is not in their hands YOU DO NOT TELL THEM TO TOUCH IT !!!
    It may be obvious here that the end result in my world may very well have been the same. Rice dead. That said the Rice case begs for actions other than sizing the cops up for orange jumpers.

  38. “What the cops hear when he says “I can’t breathe” is that he can breathe.”

    “OF COURSE they CAN breathe or they wouldn’t be able to talk.”

    So…you’re saying IT’S TRUE.

    Uhh…good one.

  39. Muffy you’re smarter than this. “I can’t breathe” means I’m having trouble breathing and should not be ignored particularly in the case of an obese man.

    You’re being deliberately thick.

    As for your other question, I’ve already conceded to Rabbit that if I’m a cop and I see a suspect reach for what may be a real gun then I MIGHT fire at the suspect. As I told Rabbit, it’s a tough call.

  40. If the gun was real and Rice had reached for it, should the officer have fired his own weapon then?

    This was your question Muffy. How can I answer the question in any way other than what I would do? It was a tough call, as I said. I could understand the officer discharging his weapon but I could also understand him waiting to see the gun in the suspects hand before shooting.

    You are one odd chick. You’re not interested in what I would do … but why would I expect anyone else to behave differently from me? That would make me a hypocrite.

    I think you share Tigre’s fondness for arguing with yourself.

  41. I found it interesting tonight, that two Black Congresswomen of the Black Congressional Congress when asked how either the Garner or Brown case demonstrated racism and questioned about their idiocy on the house floor yesterday, both became indignant, deflected to the system is broken narrative, and then finally started shouting down the the interviewer when pushed when they had no answer. Both acted with pure ignorance and were pompous, entitled asses. They obviously had no concept of data or proof. Stupid, stupid people. If I were black, I would have been mortified.

    This is the problem with black america – it starts at the top.

  42. “When a weapon is in the hands of a suspect you tell them to drop it. When it is not in their hands YOU DO NOT TELL THEM TO TOUCH IT !!!”

    I can’t say what this does to my overall opinion on the matter, but its a perspective that does make a lot of sense and I appreciate it being added to the discussion.

  43. Tex has repeatedly commented on white folks getting sick and tired of being called racist while blacks misbehave. And I agree with him. There is a subset of whites who have had enough of being made to feel somehow guilty about the state of black America.

    But the flipside resides in the “perception equals reality” zone. I am telling you here and now, the way the media is leaning and the mood in the street as evidenced in the nightly protests, you better start seeing some videos of whites getting hassled by cops. You better see these videos surface fast because it’s the only way to counter the current growing perception that unarmed blacks are being routinely killed by cops.

    Tigre, you’ve been hassled? You got it on tape? Upload that thing to YouTube ASAP.

    I’m telling you, this cry of “black lives matter” is going to grow and grow until we see some vids of fat white guys in a chokehold. May not seem fair but that’s where we are at right now.

  44. Bullshit.

    Listen, I may not know what it is like to be black, but you certainly don’t know what it is like to be white.

    At some point, it gets really fucking old to be racist, just because you’re white. (Which is a racist statement in the first place.)

    At some point, it gets really fucking old to be sexist, just because you’re male. (Which is a sexist statement in the first place.)

    At some point, it gets really fucking old to be homophobic, just because you’re heterosexual. (Which is just stupid, if not heterophobic.)

    My kids are half white, half Indian, and I tell them to check the Asian box so they don’t have to go through the bullshit I see on a daily basis.

    After watching the knockout game bullshit (overwhelmingly black youths assaulting whites and other minorities), seeing Holder’s refusal to prosecute Black Panther Party members (whether committing voter intimidation crimes or plotting terrorist attacks on the St. Louis Arch), Obama’s atrociously dismal record on racial issues writ large (Henry Louis Gates for instance), the Obamaphone bullshit, Trayvon Martin and now Michael Brown, it is hard not to have formed some new opinion about the black community since the last 6 years or so.

    I work really hard to keep bias out of my analysis. I have my colored lenses, I know that, but I can take them off to examine a situation from different perspectives, but it is getting harder and harder to not get very, very, very frustrated with the non-sense that is dominating the news cycle. This white guilt bullshit , for instance. I’m sorry, I’m not guily of anything, and last I checked, it is not a crime to be white. I’ve not owned slaves, I don’t racially prejudice anyone, and I find skin color immaterial, yet, there is this movement that says that I should beat myself for the crimes of past generations. Fuck that and fuck you if you buy into that foolishness. Blacks sell blacks into slavery RIGHT NOW in Africa, where are the #BoycottAfrica signs? Asians tend to be far more racially focused (Outside of African-Americans) than any other demographic group I’ve seen, yet there’s no #StopRacismInAsia movements going on.

    YOUR messiah has made race relations in America WORSE. There’s no unity, no effort at understanding. There is no historical record of Republicans EVER working against the Black Community, yet history is rife with example after example of the Dem party concertedly working to hold the black community down as a policy of the party.

    “These Negroes, they’re getting pretty uppity these days and that’s a problem for us since they’ve got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we’ve got to do something about this, we’ve got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference… I’ll have them niggers voting Democratic for the next two hundred years”. – President Lyndon B. Johnson

    You can say the GOP has worked to cut social welfare programs, and yes, this has a large impact on the black community, but it is not TARGETED at the black community, its about smaller government and individual accountability–ALL INDIVIDUALS. Dems have specifically worked policies directed at the black community BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK. Jim Crows laws were directed AT BLACKS by Dems to keep blacks down.

    It is a FACT that old, white, men in the GOP have been the champions of Civil Rights legislation in this country. Period. R, we talk about the Dems shift from the hard racism of anti-black to the soft bigotry of low expectations. There is nothing that has changed today from the LBJ quote above. Nothing. “we’ve got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference…” Obamaphones. EBT. And then lie after lie about how, in some incredibly vague manner, the GOP is somehow targeting blacks because they’re black. “I’ll have them niggers voting Democratic for the next two hundred years.” The Dem party is like a drug dealer, they get you hooked on a system designed to keep your head above water, but nothing more, and then use the system to keep you politically in line.

    Right now, we cannot have a rational discussion on race. As long as people like Al Sharpton, Michael Eric Dyson, Eric Holder, and Barack Obama are the negotiators, there will not be an honest dialogue because the goal these men have is not racial parity, it is white inferiority. That is the very definition of racism, and I’m not interested in that game.

  45. And so it begins with Rutherford. The useful idiot as always.

    Blacks need to see whites being hassled by the police need to be uploaded to Youtube? Have you ever been to Youtube? They’re all over the place. You could watch for hours.

    Trying to project something that shows even score ain’t the problem or the solution. YOU are the problem. YOU, your liberal heroes, and your race baiting media. This is a reaction to the election for fuck’s sake. YOU wanted and this fight. You are getting what you want, YOU picked the scabs, YOU picked the fights, You whipped the leaders of your dependent class into a fury because of the election Rutherford.

    There is no rationale nor reason other than that.

    Yes We Can!

    Hey, maybe you’ll get something out of this. What would you like?

  46. Tex, I saw some of that shit last night. Pose the same questions that I posed to Rutherford, got the same mindless blather back. They don’t care what the numbers or evidence are. Those are they’re obstacle. They’re trying pimp lies to malignant hordes of stupid people.

    Grubering doesn’t work on the skeptical. This is Obama.

  47. Grubering? This is much older than that…

    “It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise.”
    ― Joseph Goebbels

    “Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.”
    ― Joseph Goebbels

    “The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly – it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”
    ― Joseph Goebbels

    “Success is the important thing. Propaganda is not a matter for average minds, but rather a matter for practitioners. It is not supposed to be lovely or theoretically correct. I do not care if I give wonderful, aesthetically elegant speeches, or speak so that women cry. The point of a political speech is to persuade people of what we think right. I speak differently in the provinces than I do in Berlin, and when I speak in Bayreuth, I say different things than I say in the Pharus Hall. That is a matter of practice, not of theory. We do not want to be a movement of a few straw brains, but rather a movement that can conquer the broad masses. Propaganda should be popular, not intellectually pleasing. It is not the task of propaganda to discover intellectual truths.
    ― Joseph Goebbels

    “Devotion, fervor, longing! Those are my pillars. We have to be the bridge to the future.”
    ― Joseph Goebbels

    “We shall go down in history as the greatest statesmen of all time,or as the greatest criminals”
    ― Joseph Goebbels

    If R had a soul, after reading this, he’d be in a cold sweat. Obama’s “transparency” is captured perfectly in the thoughts of Goebbels. When you look at everything Obama has said and done, you find Goebbels: Yes We Can!

  48. Gorilla @ 7:43. Best summary in a long while.


    Rutherford on perception-as-reality. True enough, and agreed it doesn’t matter (much) what reality IS, but I think these are really two separate problems.

    To an even greater degree than you need to get control of your government, you need to get control of your police. American blacks are not stupid – they know these “victims” are not angels, and they know how violent the black male can be. But you are very right that blackfellas in America think they are being beaten and killed UNFAIRLY.

    What is so outrageous to people around the world is the American police’s disproportionate use of force and their alarming militarization. Clear choking and murdering (on videos!) by a police force that looks like nothing so much as it does a cadre of Nazi jackbooted thugs. In the same way black men are shown on Youtube and on the news, constantly involved in crime, American police are shown visiting violence on those people in a degree far above what is required – and from where I sit, THAT is what pisses black people off.

    R – A distinction with a difference, or without?

  49. Gruber, Goebbels. Tomato, Tomahto.

    The manipulation of idiots. This is the unity the little kids were chanting about in 2006, right R. Your black jesus.

  50. G, glad you’re back to make some bomb runs through here, BTW.

    Even if you did marry outside of your race, you racist.

  51. Muffy, we have just departed on Rutherford’s journey of rationalization captained by the MSNBC narrative. There was in Brown, Garner or Rice, on race so the shifting of the motives and justifications to continue the post election tantrum will simply supply it’s own.

    We need some white “hands in pockets” videos — uh huh. 🙄 That’s what this all about.

    Rutherford rage to come next. Time to take his place at the bow of the Titanic.

  52. G, but for the very last sentence in your long comment, I agree with everything you said. I’ll address the last sentence later.

    P.S. I need to fact check that Johnson quote. Does sound a bit fishy.

  53. I’m telling you, this cry of “black lives matter” is going to grow and grow until we see some vids of fat white guys in a chokehold. May not seem fair but that’s where we are at right now.

    It’s not fair and most reasonable blacks like you aren’t doing a damn thing to educate the dumb clucks either. This isn’t a movement – it’s an excuse for hatred, lawlessness, racism, thuggery and in a way, a cry for help. And I’m guessing a large part of it is dumb sheep being led to the slaughter by some racialists like Holder, are fed by indoctrination from the crib. I’m also guessing it’s pent up anger over watching their first black President become a national laughingstock and butt of jokes. His failure is their failure. His gross incompetence is their incompetence.

    Here’s what most of you blacks might not understand. May not seem fair but that’s where we are at right now. All the while these protests go on the the hassles go on, and the looting goes on, they reinforce to white people that the majority of the black population is racist, predatory, lawless, savage. If you think this movement is doing blacks some good, think again. Because I can guarantee you the one thing it’s not doing is garnering sympathies from most of us. That’s a misconception that TV fogs, because these whites you see marching with blacks are the outcast, the disenfranchised, the unkempt, the young and stupid. When these imbeciles get mugged for the sole reason they’re white, and they will, they’ll go from faux sympathizers to black haters. For most of these dummies, it’s a party.

    These videos you seek are all over the net. Last year, three times as many whites as blacks were killed by police – a disproportionate statistical number considering blacks constitute between 6 to 8 times the violence crime as whites do per populace.

    The deal is, the vast proportion of whites understand you placate cops and you don’t resist arrest. This Garner fellow shouldn’t be dead. But he was a public nuisance and that lowers the quality of life for all of us, you included. It’s a tragedy he is dead. Had I been the cop, I would have immediately sat him up once cuffed. But…

    I’ve got a question for you, Rutherford. Name a white neighborhood where a black man can’t walk safely through without threat of life? And then I’ll list a thousand black neighborhoods where any white man would risk his life.

    I’ve got another one. And I can virtually guarantee you it’s true, because it happens in my city about 50 times a year. Do you know why Michael Brown’s body laid in the street for four hours?

  54. Name a white neighborhood where a black man can’t walk safely through without threat of life?

    Name a white neighborhood where a black man can walk around without suspicion of wrong doing.

    I read an article a week or so ago of a black man whose German wife takes the kids to Germany now and then leaving the man back home. When his family is home, he does just fine. When they go away he perceives that folks in the neighborhood look at him sideways.

    Maybe he’s paranoid? Blacks operating under the assumption of guilt is one of many factors bubbling to the surface.

    Now tell me, why was Browns body left in the street for four hours?

  55. Now tell me, why was Browns body left in the street for four hours?

    Gun shots were being fired by the black choir boys and girls. In predominately poor, black neighborhoods, emergency medical personnel generally need an armed escort. Nice…

    Name a white neighborhood where a black man can walk around without suspicion of wrong doing.

    True. And why’s that? Could the assumption of guilt have anything to do with history and crime statistics? Believe it or not, there’s very good reasons for profiling. We all do it, whether consciously or not. It’s called risk and causality. If it’s racist, which I admit I walk more cautiously around groups of black men, why is that I don’t hardly notice groups of brown men, red men, or yellow men?

    So which is worse? Suspicion? Or death?

  56. I interrupted my vacation from this blog for one reason. Hot Air “About that House Intelligence Committee Report on Benghazi, Part 111″ Even if the report was true, as I had written, the condemnation of Hillary and Obama was obvious. The writer repeated what I had told you. Once again, we told you so.

    I haven’t read any of the comments since my vacation, because I don’t want to delve too far into memories of head locks.

    This video unwittingly describes what liberal Democrats are trying to do, to hood wink us into thinking what we see about them is untrue. They are photoshopping themselves and issues like police racial attacks on black men as the Hungarian singer Boggie is doing,. She editorializes about the inherent dishonesty of such actions with photoshop which turns out not to be.

    This video has made her an international star since she released it a little less than a year ago. :”Stand Up for Hillary” has turned Clinton into this weekend’s laughing stock.Her fake photoshop is failing as Boggie’s editorial statement prevails.

    Sorry about interrupting the train of thought.

  57. This great. If Gowdy stopped right there, he just squeezed the biggest concession our of Obama’s advocate, and she never saw it coming. Obama created his own law. She didn’t even know she was stepping in it.

  58. Tex one reason I feel bad for Tamir Rice is that he wasn’t just a victim of that cop. He was a victim of every thug who set the expectation of that innocent kid’s behavior.

    By the way, since Cosby’s star is fading, Google Charles Barkley and see what he’s been saying lately. More courageous truth about black-caused problems for blacks.

  59. G, where I disagree with you is when you say blacks want superiority.

    I don’t think blacks have well defined when they’ve “made it”, partly because they define their success by how whites treat them.

    I think if blacks were more focused on self actualization they’d have a better idea of when they have achieved parity/equity.

  60. You lost me Tigre. I watched your Gowdy video and I missed the slam dunk. Witness never backed down on claim of prosecutorial discretion.

    What I thought was far more interesting was the first 30 seconds or so when Gowdy basically said “don’t call me a racist”. Damn! I’d love to know what the witness said to get that lecture!

  61. R, maybe you don’t understand the debate, but Gowdy is showing that the EO is not a function of executorial discretion in the enforcement of existing law, it’s that in fact Obama changed” (created) a law through his EO.

    Now, in the last few moments, see what Gowdy leading into “that’s not the current law,” and her response finishing with “but that’s what he’s created.” .

  62. G, where I disagree with you is when you say blacks want superiority.

    I don’t think blacks have well defined when they’ve “made it”, partly because they define their success by how whites treat them.

    I think if blacks were more focused on self actualization they’d have a better idea of when they have achieved parity/equity.

    I disagree in the sense that I think rational actors would take the view you do. However, I think what Obama and Sharpton have stirred up is more along the lines of a mob mentality, where pain to you (whites) is good, irrespective of its impact on me (blacks). Basically, misery loves company. There is no call, outside of Charles Barkley, for increased accountability of all parties. This is about pain and suffering, not equality.

    Take the #ShutItDown protests against stores and Holiday events. That hurts the economy, it’ll hurt jobs, many of which I’m sure include blacks, but they don’t care because this is about pain and suffering.

  63. partly because they define their success by how whites treat them.

    Then they ought to feel like Kings and Queens of the world. Until Obama, White America had been kissing the ass of Black America for 45 years if you ask me, and especially the last 30. Finally, millions of white people have had enough of walking on egg shells, trying to ignore the jungle, and being called racist for their troubles. I ought to be thanking Obama for waking MY PEOPLE up to reality.

    Any disagreement with an Obama policy – racist. Fuck that. About the only thing White America didn’t subsidize is reparations – and The Fecklessly Failed Great Society has more than made up for.

    No worries though, “R”. You and I can remain distant friends. When the war starts, I’m not going to be aiming at your head, or Obama’s head, or any other black man’s head. I’m going to get me some sorry white lib ass and frog march the paper white Humanities Dept./OWS scum out to the fray so they can be on the front lines of the war they helped create.

    I hope these phony bastards and bitches can butter up with the racialist language with a banger’s gun in their mouth and size 13 Michael Jordan up their ass. Then they can get a taste of what some of these business owners felt in Ferguson that Monday night.

    😡

  64. Nothing to see here folks. She’s, so she had it coming…

    St. Louis police are investigating an alleged hate crime in the Bevo neighborhood early this morning that left a 26-year-old woman beaten.

    According to a police report, at about 5:30 a.m., a woman was driving on the 4600 block of Lansdowne when three black males in their late-teens to early-20s stepped in front of her vehicle.

    When the woman tried to drive around them, the suspects reportedly pulled out a firearm, so she stopped the car.

    After hitting her windshield with a crowbar, the suspects pulled the woman from her car, threw her on the ground and kicked her.

  65. In an appearance with Sean Hannity, when questioned about the “hands up, don’t shoot narrative” being a lie, based on the physical evidence presented to the grand jury, the delegate became angry, raised her voice, and stated, “My interest is not in what did happen.” She [Eleanor Holmes Norton] is more concerned about what should happen from now on, you see.

    See, I understand when the unwashed sheeple fall for this crap, but for the love of God, she’s a member of Congress….

  66. White America had been kissing the ass of Black America for 45 years if you ask me.

    Naah. You’re confusing government and the media with white America. Blacks judge their experience by their daily lives. If they get followed in a store or can’t flag a cab or get stopped on the street because someone said they look suspicious with their hands in their pockets, they certainly don’t view that as white America kissing their ass.

    What you want to see, and I don’t blame you one bit, is for the media to stop condescending to blacks pretending they have no role in their current situation.

  67. Take the #ShutItDown protests against stores and Holiday events. That hurts the economy, it’ll hurt jobs, many of which I’m sure include blacks, but they don’t care because this is about pain and suffering.

    G, economic boycotts have been a protest method for ages now. Hell, wasn’t the kick start to the modern civil rights movement bus boycotts?

    It’s all about getting attention and demanding action. Some here are fond of saying the only thing these black hoods understand is force. I would counter that the only thing the power structure understands is getting their wallet squeezed.

  68. WOW That professor that G posted fulfills every nightmare about liberal education ever written in these threads. I’m wondering if the lecture was part of a course or a one-off inspired by current events.

    When all is done, sounds like the prof is saying “burn the bitch down”. Yikes.

    BTW, the white guy at the end of the video should scare you too. LOL

  69. The theme discussed at the end of the video is one I first heard from the author of “The New Jim Crow”. The fundamental flaw to this meme is it must ride on the proposition that blacks are being incarcerated for crimes they did not commit.

    In other words, to say that THE MAN has replaced Jim Crow with mass incarceration as a means to oppress the black man, you must first believe that MANY innocent black men are being sent to jail. If this is not the basic premise, then one must deal with black accountability. If you don’t do the crime, you don’t do the time. Factoring in black accountability destroys the entire “New Jim Crow” theory.

    Now, this needs to be separated from the “corporate for-profit” prison system that has evolved. That is indeed an evil phenomenon that can only lead to disaster.

  70. Naah. You’re confusing government and the media with white America. Blacks judge their experience by their daily lives.

    Naah. I’ve never seen a race where white oafs fall over themselves to make sure they use the proper description, “African-American.” Nobody else gets that kind of deference. Blacks are catered to in everything from athletics and education. I was told 20 years ago to try and hire a black when possible. We did. He was a disaster, washed out, and ended up is some clerical position making professional money. They didn’t dare get rid of him.

    I have a working theory as to why blacks keep falling further behind. But you wouldn’t listen or answer, so why?

  71. I have a working theory as to why blacks keep falling further behind. But you wouldn’t listen or answer, so why?

    I’m guessing your theory is fairly intuitive. It’s simply a matter of steadily declining standards, both behavioral and educational.

    Of course standards have declined for everyone. Since blacks started from behind, their decline is more pronounced.

  72. I was told 20 years ago to try and hire a black when possible. We did. He was a disaster, washed out, and ended up is some clerical position making professional money. They didn’t dare get rid of him.

    Still your fault. You picked the wrong black guy.

  73. I picked the wrong black guy once. Well he was half black anyway. He turned out capable of the same shenanigans as any politician half white half black psychopath.

  74. A lot of us got fooled Poolman. For some of us it seemed so impossible that we could be looking at the first black President that we got caught up in the momentum and the hype.

    I, for one, will not make that mistake with the first woman President.

  75. Still your fault. You picked the wrong black guy.

    I hate to tell you this but he was THE ONLY BLACK GUY. And there were white guys far more qualified I could have hired. And I got to listen to the advice of our HR Dept. in our very white company that we needed more minority representation. And that’s what we did. And I knew we could cover, because we had half a dozen good people. And that goes on in every large corporation in America.

    My theory is far more complex than that, by the way.

  76. Especially when you take into count the players and the game. People that are excited about “Black lives matter” are delusional and or ignorant of history.

  77. “I am telling you here and now, the way the media is leaning and the mood in the street as evidenced in the nightly protests, you better start seeing some videos of whites getting hassled by cops.”

    No it isn’t. The mood on the street is not one-dimensional. It’s not even noon and I’ve seen more black folks “on the street” this morning than you have since Ferguson erupted probably. Breakfast at Wishbone, yo, followed by a run up to Pete’s Market on Western and Madison just past the United Center.

    I experience “the street” every time I step outside and wait for the bus or the El. I hear it on the bus, a little louder than I like sometimes but I’m always listening. Just this Wednesday I just had one of my dialogues with a stranger that you lightly admonished me for in the past. Many of the conversations are topical, for sure, but the “mood” is no one thing, even among black folks. I’ve gotten more smiles than frowns, and I gave more than my share of smiles. During the week when I’m not on holiday my work life is such that my interactions are with multicultural young people. They too are busy living their lives while the more activist-prone are feeling their political oats.

    “I’m telling you, this cry of “black lives matter” is going to grow and grow until we see some vids of fat white guys in a chokehold. May not seem fair but that’s where we are at right now.”

    It’ll bubble up again if the cop that shot Rice is not charged with a crime and I’m not looking forward to that. I get that there’s a rift but when Obama and Holder leave the scene the wounds will begin to heal again I think. The hard won peace and long term desire for more is bigger than Obama and his court.

    I don’t have a problem with people protesting the Garner arrest gone south. I hear that. The OWS junkies lying in the streets in their North Face jackets and manufactured in Mongolia iPhones are another story. My strategy in dealing with them is just to imagine they’re lying in expectorant and fresh pee.

    You’d double your depth just by doing the single action of starting to watch local news. Chicago local is actually pretty good, comparatively speaking.

  78. Well I’ve obviously had too much coffee.

    But I wanted to add that I’m starting book 2 of the Hunger Games. I give it 10 thumbs up.

  79. “P.S. I need to fact check that Johnson quote. Does sound a bit fishy.”

    No it doesn’t, it sounds a bit plausible. That is if you’ve heard any of the recordings of Johnson using the term in question. To my knowledge here are no known recordings of this particular reported statement just two witnesses. Nonetheless it’s as likely as not that he said it, based on similar statements for which recordings do indeed exist.

    Speaking of “black lives matter” do you know the reason Byrd gave for his “evolved” racist views? His grandson died and he realized that black people love their children as much as whites.

    What a sensitive guy.

    By the way, is the congressional black caucus a racist org?

  80. Alfie I think the two slogans emerging from Staten Island that resonate better are “I can’t breathe” and “this stops here” because they both speak to police brutality minus the racial overtones.

    It’s hard to say if this is the protest du jour or something that will result in permanent reforms on use of deadly force.

  81. Mike Williams 44 yo black male arrested for stabbing 4 on an Amtrak train. Taser used plus 4 cops. Proper training,response,and numbers equals a better outcome. It doesn’t always happen this way just like it doesn’t always happen the Garner,Brown,Rice way. Just saying.

  82. Muffy, and I say this with zero sarcasm, I suspect of everyone here you have the most interesting background and probably the most interesting life currently with the possible exception of Gorilla’s secret government shenanigans.

    At the very least we know you are a conservative graduate of Brown University so that in itself is interesting. Plus when I read your tales of interactions with strangers (in Chicago no less) I get a real sense of fearlessness from you and a sense of adventure.

    There is no doubt that I should not be so cocky about my read on “the street” since I’m just going on gut from what I see in news reports. You should really document your observations either in a guest blog here or at your own place if it still exists.

    Maybe in my next life, given fewer physical limitations and more courage, I’ll report from where the action is.

  83. By the way, is the congressional black caucus a racist org?

    You know what? I’d prefer there were no “black organizations” as they only serve to further separate us. I’ve already said in threads past that I think the NAACP has run its course.

    I would prefer to call the CBC racialist rather than racist.

  84. Regarding Johnson, yes his statement is VERY plausible. It just sounded to me like one of those internet circulated fabricated quotes.

    As I’ve written here before, my mother so mistrusted Johnson that she voted for Goldwater. I think it was the only time she voted GOP.

  85. Regarding Williams, amen brother. I am not a “fuck tha police” dude. Especially because I don’t carry, I want them to protect my ass.

    That said, every community needs to feel protected by the police, not attacked by them.

  86. “You’d double your depth just by doing the single action of starting to watch local news.” -Muffy

    He’s too much of a fucking coward.

    He can’t even look the very people in the eye that he pretends his politics have helped.

    Abstract niggas on a chess board. That’s how liberals see black people. Some, like Rutherford, deny the chess board, so they damn sure keep them in the abstract. Others, like the OWS anarchy crowd, so ignorant and criminal, gleefully place themselves on the chess board. Its more of a party game like Mr. Twister for them.

    If there is one thing I’ve learned about liberals, it is they don’t give a rat’s ass about actually learning what their policies do to communities. But man will they use those communities.

    Outside of the hope and change of ’08, a unique event, there is only one way to mobilize the wastelands of progressive policy, and that is by burning Ferguson, et al. And, thanks to the dismal performance of Obama, liberals need the wastelands at the polls in ’16. There will be more riots.

  87. He can’t even look the very people in the eye that he pretends his politics have helped.

    Well, I see we’re in a dandy mood this Saturday.

    When’s the last time you saw me say liberal policies have helped black people? You’re not curious why I have actually been mum on that recently?

    By most objective measurements liberal policies have NOT helped blacks. So the next question is do conservative policies ignore blacks, hurt blacks or in the long run help blacks?

  88. I really shouldn’t be writing now. You may think I am still angry about something.

    I’m glad you liked the first Boggie video, Rutherford. Here is another.
    Put the words in the context she may not have intended. Few English-speaking people know much about Boggie yet, because for most of us, she is an over- night star. I told a local radio DJ about her and though he is in the music business, he had never heard of her. He now likes her music.

    Listen to or read the lyrics and remember the hell her people suffered several generations ago. Over 25,000 Hungarians died in their revolution against the USSR. Experiences of professional white and black victims pale in comparison . They would be better people,, and we would not be flirting with a race war if they followed the sentiments expressed in this song. It hints that one should not be a prisoner of the past. I believe Boggie writes her own music.

    Black teens murdered a Bosnian woman in St. Louis with a hammer. Four other white Bosnian victims were also attacked. Blacks attacked a white man’s car. When he got out they smashed his face with a hammer and killed him. Zemir Begic, 32 another Bosnian had recently moved to St. Louis from Iowa.

    In Minneapolis, Michael Brown supporters surrounded an SUV and broke windows. The driver sped up to get away and ran over at least one person. Some of the media claimed the driver ran over the black person on purpose. Zemir might still be alive had he done the same thing.,

    Back in St. Louis, witnesses said blacks were shouting “f88k white people” as Zemir was taken away to the hospital before he died.

    Over fifty members of the Bosnian community protested at the site .In an attempt to diffuse “tempers in the Bosnian community St Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson made the incredibly naive comment that there was no evidence to indicate that the victim was chosen because he was Bosnian. Well, you don’t say! Does any reasonable person seriously think the black perps checked the victim’s ethnicity any further than to notice that he was white? Mourners said they fled Bosnia to escape genocide, in the ’90’s and now they are being killed by blacks.” Main Page Latest News.

    Bosnians, like Hungarians are tough people who are able to fight. Blacks ought not try their patience. But then, all whites probably look alike to them.

    A man with a knife was shot in LA and hang wringing has already begun. The media and our leaders are largely silent about the black vendeda against whites., My logical conclusion is that besides being a socialist, our president is also a racist. So is Eric Holder.

    You, Rutherford, and Poolman wrote Obama fooled you twice. You both should search your souls and determine why you were fooled, so it doesn’t happen again.

    Listen to the lyrics of the song and think of independence from the past. .

  89. I must correct a prior comment. I called the Congressional Black Caucus racialist not realizing racialist and racist are synonyms.

    If there is an adjective that means “seeing things through the lens of race” without the notion of superiority, then that is the adjective I would apply to the CBC.

  90. #BlackLivesMatter only on the relatively rare occasion they are taken by white people. Until ALL black lives start to matter, then most of America will see that slogan for the du joure it is.

  91. Bosnians….and Albanians as a whole are great people but not to be fucked with. I know many in the Detroit area. Mark my words, blacks will pay dearly if they think they can start targeting Albanians. Those people are known to have fueds that last generations.

  92. The CBC is racist hands down and undeniably so. An entity that pompously presumes to have a handle on a single viewpoint and actively excludes others. I see where the CBC and their water carriers are somewhat aghast at the GOP’ers of color being the ones to actually bump up black representation to 10%.

  93. Ahhh…back home. I spent two nights 23 feet up a tree bending in the wind. I forget how cold the woods are by December and I’m not talking the temp. They are dead, desolate and honestly a little depressing. Just 4 weeks ago they were full of action. At 5 am, its very lonely out there. It feels like the entire world doesn’t give a shit about you.

    Home sweet home. My family. The comforts of suburbia. Makes me realize how good I have it. I don’t get how those Alaskan hermit types do it.

  94. This just in:
    I just read that the reason they are not arresting any LOOTERS in Ferguson is because Eric Holder’s Justice Department has reclassified them. They are not LOOTERS anymore They are now UNDOCUMENTED SHOPPERS

    The following items have NOT been stolen by the looters in Ferguson:
    Pens, pencils, resume kits, work boots, work gloves, work coveralls, father’s day cards.


    On another front: Brown, huh? That says it all.

  95. Alfie, you slightly puzzle me.

    Brown – safe to assume no police brutality.

    Rice – not sure if “police brutality” is quite the right phrase but I’m sorry, I’m still not buying that 2 seconds is sufficient time to decide to shoot someone who is not pointing a gun at you.

    Garner – this is where you puzzle me Alfie. Brutality hands down. Not even a shade of doubt. Unarmed man NON-VIOLENTLY resisting arrest — incapable of outrunning cops (and not even attempting to flee) is grabbed around the neck FROM BEHIND and brought to the ground, then pinned by several officers with his chest facing the ground, neck and head held to ground while cries of distress are ignored. If that ain’t brutality I don’t know what is.

    As I told my sister, fuck prosecution. I hope the Garner family sues NYC for every dime they can get.

  96. You raise an interesting point Alfie and I know I sound naive even asking this but is the CBC strictly DEM or is someone like Mia Love (newly elected GOP from UT) welcome in it?

    Again, racism implies antagonism toward another race. I seriously doubt folks would agree that the CBC hates white people.

  97. Suffice to say we don’t share the same view for nuance and meaning on words. Brutality is a big word for me. The NYC cop scumbag that sodomized the suspect with a broomstick and expected the “Blue Wall” to have his back is brutality to me. Physically or verbally abusing a person for nothing resembling line of duty stuff is too. The line is INTENT.
    Garner shows a failure of procedure and was “brutal” in its purity but it wasn’t intentional,malicious etc. Therefore its not police brutality.

  98. As for the CBC Rutherford the GOP’ers will be and Scott has been invited. The rub is they are not welcome by any stretch of the imagination. In fact Love and Hurd have all ready been criticized that they don’t deserve to be on the CBC via a presumption that they may actually primarily represent they’re constituents who are not majority black. Love gets extra hate since she only beat the (D) by 4%.
    The CBC is pathetic for at its core is division and personal gain as opposed to unity and advancement for all.

  99. The CBC is composed of morons and black racists – self absorbed, self-important, buffoonish. They should be targeted like $harpton for national ridicule and scorn, called out on it loudly. Why would any Black Republican even want to be included in that bed of inane demons? They’re much too good and much too intelligent for the African Caucus. The African Causus is where stupid blacks lie.

    And I agree with you, Alfie. There’s no way the Garner incident was police brutality. Garner didn’t cooperate, so they took him down. Men like Rutherford are quick to point out faults of police. So I would like to ask Rutherford what his suggestion for intervention would have been. Whose to say the big man’s heart doesn’t stop when tazed?

    However, I do find it tragic and sad the way it ended. Garner was a big, dumb oaf and not violent, compared to the thug Brown. The real blame for Garner’s death ought to be placed at the feet of Comrade De Blasio and Co.. – cops reinforcing revenue generation killed Garner.

    I’ve decided the only solution for White American cops tired of being labeled racist is to uniformly announce they will no longer police predominantly black districts – refuse to even enter them. And wait three weeks before the wailing and gnashing of teeth prevails.

  100. Rutherford, I cannot believe you didn’t even acknowledge my admittance to liking your petroglyphs, even if I could have sworn it was spelled petra, only to discover it indeed from the petro meaning ‘rock.’. :smile

    I thought I was quite astute in noticing your hidden talents. Now you’ve hurt my feelings. I thought we were friends.

    Actually, I thought the art work was pretty cute, mistro. I was wondering if you did it and what tool you used to draw.

  101. To Alfie: So maybe this comes down to semantics. Police brutality DOES bring to mind Abner Louima and the plunger handle up the ass.

    So let’s say “excessive use of force”. Anyone who claims that excessive force was not used on Garner either hasn’t seen the video or is a blind defender of police.

    To Tex: I am not a police hater. Michael Brown got exactly what was coming to him.

    I don’t know how we achieve this but we have to find a way to stop bussing in cops (white or black) into neighborhoods they know nothing about. Folks are saying whites shouldn’t police blacks. BULLSHIT! It’s not about race. It’s about familiarity. Did Darren Wilson know ANYONE in that neighborhood by name? What about Pantaleo?

    I don’t know about you guys but when I was a kid the cop was considered a member of the community who you could walk right up to and ask for help if you needed it. Can that be said today?

  102. LOL Tex the artwork was not mine. I’m so artistically talentless that I could not even produce that primitive drawing.

    I’ve been relying on royalty free clip art lately to spice up the posts.

  103. R and Alfie, I want to add that there needs to be very careful consideration to holding an officer criminally versus civilly liable. The terms excessive force, brutality, reckless, negligent, and especially “racist,” are being flung around with the usual voyeur’s abandon by people with a voice that have no regard for the significance.

    Stated differently, precedent is mighty important when it comes to our police protection. I think Garner is damn close call from what I saw but have tended to lean towards accepting the acquittal the more I think on it. There was a lot more going on there than a cop wanting to choke the life out of someone. A broomstick penetration? Not so much.

  104. R, you doubt that CBC is racist? Come on man. Calls ’em likes you sees ’em. The bullshit semantics are the biggest part of the problem.

  105. To Tex: I am not a police hater. Michael Brown got exactly what was coming to him.

    That’s a misconception, or you’ve misread me. I don’t think you and in fact have been for the most part fair in your assessment of Ferguson. In this way, you don’t parrot the bloc vote of the Black Community.

    In fact, I’ve decided on most issues, your ideology is correlated more to white elitist than grievance hustler. In other words, your more Jonathan Gruber than Al $harpton. 😀

  106. P.S. – Concerning the art work. Primitive art work would be Da Vinci compared to my artistry, Rutherford. I probably would have hammered in a ‘X’ as my cave masterpiece. LOL

    I have a few talents – art is definitely not one – at least the production of it. But I sure appreciate people who can.

  107. There was a lot more going on there than a cop wanting to choke the life out of someone.

    Tigre I will leave the legal jargon to you but “excessive force” does not mean to me intent to kill.

    I do NOT believe Pantaleo wanted Garner dead. So tell me, what is the right legal phrase? Negligent homicide? Involuntary manslaughter?

    Unlike both the Brown and Rice cases where an argument can be made for the police action, with Garner there is no ambiguity. Cooler heads should have prevailed and there should be accountability.

    BTW I’m watching an MTP interview with Garners widow and I challenge any of you not to like her. First she said it wasn’t about race. Second, and this cracked me up, she described her late husband as “lazy”. LOL

    I’m still watching it as I type this.

  108. @ Tigre agreed.
    I think the Garner case should result in a civil suit win but not 75+ million.
    I think the Rice matter is tougher call but that CPD should find itself at a minimum reviewing its practices and policies. This is the kind of stuff that happens a lot more than people realize. I’m not feeling a civil reward in that one.
    Brown & Ferguson is settled science in my book. I don’t think the there should be any lawsuit type in that one even though I imagine Ferguson will face a LAPD lite version of what Holder did there.

  109. Rutherford the hiring and staffing of a police force is not as easy as you might think. Even where demographics scream for representation you don’t necessarily get the applicants.
    As a rule departments don’t deploy folks into the neighborhoods they hail from and thats a good thing.
    Now as far as community policing,sensitivity training and cultural training those are all things the NYPD has a ton of.

  110. Good. Let’s burn Melissa Harris-Perry’s property down while she watches, and we’ll call it even. No harm, no foul, it’s not violent.

    Does that imbecile speaking with cotton in her mouth, or something.

  111. Yes, Boggie is a good singer, Rutherford. I believe she earned a MA degree at the University of La. She sings in Hungarian, French, and English, maybe more languages. I’m glad you like her.

    To second alfie, early on the Furgeson police department said they had been trying to recruit blacks with less success than they hoped.

    Garner was already a sick man. If he died from the relatively gentle treatment the police officers gave him as he was being restrained, he wouldn’t have lived much longer without a medical emergency.

  112. Even where demographics scream for representation you don’t necessarily get the applicants.

    Understood … but

    I saw a police chief from, I believe, Camden NJ who talked about officers going door to door when NO crime has been committed just to talk with residents and see what their concerns and priorities are. In other words, an effort was made to build a neighborhood relationship. One of the most criminal cities in the country saw crime drop 50%.

    We need law abiding people to NOT fear the police and for criminals to fear them.

  113. I haven’t watched G’s vid yet but I did watch some MHP last night and I was uncomfortable to say the least.

    To even SUGGEST that vandalism is somehow a reasonable expression of righteous anger is not cool. She said no bodily harm. Ridiculous. First, you can’t be sure someone doesn’t get trapped in that burning building. Second the economic damage is devastating.

    Now don’t freak boys and girls but I have an honest question from the MHP show. Can someone be prosecuted for inciting a riot if the rioters were miles away and did not hear nor were influenced by the so-called inciter?

    Let me give you my 2 cents on Perry. Perry is mixed race and I honestly believe she struggles with her blackness. I think psychologically she tries to qualify as “really black”. I think that informs much of what she says. I believe she is smarter than she speaks but is so racially conflicted that she says stupid shit.

  114. Garner was already a sick man. If he died from the relatively gentle treatment the police officers gave him as he was being restrained, he wouldn’t have lived much longer without a medical emergency.

    . James, come on. There was nothing gentle about his treatment and yes we are all gonna die someday so if a cop kills us, no harm no foul … he just hastened our eventual death anyway?

  115. Mary Landrieu, who told the whopper that Keystone would create “millions of jobs” deservedly lost yesterday. The collective IQ of the Senate just went up a point or two.

  116. Rutherford my sources tell me Camden NJ crime is not down that far but it is indeed down. This is surely due to the disbanding of the city police and the creation of the county /metro force that is in place now which subscribes to the NYPD “broken windows” model. The county courthouse workload is insane.

  117. “There was nothing gentle about his treatment”

    Dude resisted arrest. Period. They took him down awkwardly because of his size. He died because he had a medical condition. That is all there is to this story, from the police end of it. It was only racist in the sense that these fucking black losers are always finding themselves in conflict with the police for stupid shit. With a police force increasingly a bunch of nerds with criminal justice degrees instead of old school bad asses with street smarts, get used to it. (Ask any veteran cop).

    Personally….I don’t think it should have come to that….slap him with a ticket. Tell him to leave or you will be back. Let him save some face and slink off after 10 minutes. Challenges should always be avoided. If not, come back and slam him. For this lack of common sense, I hope his family sues (don’t know if this makes a case, doubt it).

    Whatever the case, the dumb ass ambulance guys watched him die. Sue! Sue! Sue!

    There is a way to dealing with these lowlife degenerates. (Garner had been arrested over 30 times)

  118. “I do NOT believe Pantaleo wanted Garner dead. So tell me, what is the right legal phrase? Negligent homicide? Involuntary manslaughter?”

    That depends on whether you are talking about “liable” or “guilty.”

    To be clearer, the rightness or wrongness of your or Alfie’s opinion wasn’t my point. I’ve given you mine — and its not better than anyone else’s, including yours.

    What I was saying is to be careful in how you analyze this. You use of the term “accountability” in the abstract is precisely what I’m getting it. In looking at this thing, deciding whether the cop needs to be put in jail to be held accountable is entirely different than making him or the police force civilly liable — and both impact how other cops and departments act in the future.

    The plunger handle doesn’t bother me because it is so egregious. There is no question of lines and “intent.” Society could never tolerate it for any reason. Unintentional behavior is different.

    Here, even you concede threat “intent” (to kill the Garner) isn’t present. Going too far is up for a reasonable debate despite what you say (and even though I agree with you about the wrongness from what I saw). But assuming it isn’t, putting police behind bars, or for that matter forcing them to fight for their freedom, for negligent behavior in the line of their profession has huge ramifications for all law enforcement. Seriously, if ALL excessive force is deemed criminal, we will created a penalty for those charged with carrying their job of using force in an untenable position, and with predictable results from chilling.

    We, you, have to be careful in slinging the terms around and simply saying “accountability” without identifying what that entails and what type of conduct qualifies, particularly when you are talking about unintentional results. That’s all. I’m not saying you’re wrong. I am saying you can’t be right or wrong if you don’t consider the penalty in relation to the behavior beyond “being held accountable.”

    Moreover, presuming everything racist because a white cop encounters a black is plain fucking stupid and, as I said, not worthy of discussion. As far as I’m concerned, any discussion stemming from that premise has no value to anyone without a self-serving agenda and itself should not be tolerated. Our society can’t function with that presumption no matter how much the MSNBC crowd argues for it. I would swat you with a rolled up newspaper lending any credence to it if I could.

  119. Rabbit I know of at least one assault arrest but otherwise Garner was always a petty crook. Was he a choir boy? No. Doesn’t mean he needed to be taken down the way he was.

    Think about this from his widow, and I paraphrase: “Resisting arrest? Folks have pulled a gun on a cop and lived.”

    You of all people, who have worked with strong able bodied dangerous hoods in the prison system, know that relatively speaking Garner was a pussy.

    Stop making excuses for the cop. Yes there should be big lawsuits and the internal affairs investigation should result in the cop being fired.

    There should be no civil rights action as I see no clear evidence of racism.

    P.S. Local police KNEW this guy and would even yell at him in public “hey cigarette guy!” I wanna know what tipped the scales that day to precipitate an out of proportion take-down.

  120. “He died because he had a medical condition.”

    Does an autopsy support this? I ask because others have died from police choke holds, which is why it is banned in multiple police forces across the country.

  121. The autopsy ruled the death a homicide. This tells me his medical condition was exacerbated by an outside cause that resulted in his death.

    Had he not been pinned down on his chest with a knee on his neck and hand on his head he would not have died that day.

    Might he have had a fatal asthma attack the day after? Sure. He might also have been hit by a bus.

    Some folks are bending over backwards to defend this take down from the “he was sick” to the asinine “if he couldn’t breathe he couldn’t say ‘I can’t breathe'”.

    Those lyin eyes looking at that video will get you every time.

  122. Tigre I fully get your point. In fact it seems to me that cops share a malpractice problem similar to doctors. Thanks to an overly litigious society some doctors are practicing suboptimal medicine to AVOID being sued.

    There needs to be some balance between penalty-free practice of ones profession and micro-management that hampers the ability to get the job done.

  123. “In fact it seems to me that cops share a malpractice problem similar to doctors. Thanks to an overly litigious society some doctors are practicing suboptimal medicine to AVOID being sued.”

    Doctors don’t go to jail for malpractice. You missed my point. You’re confusing penalty and compensation (remedial).

    Also, who do you think would like pay a judgment for the cop’s actions and do you think it serves your purpose of “accountability?”

  124. “Local police KNEW this guy and would even yell at him in public “hey cigarette guy!” I wanna know what tipped the scales that day to precipitate an out of proportion take-down.”

    What tipped the scales is when he resisted arrest.

    If you resist arrest they take you down. They might have done it wrong this time to a sick person. I’m not even sure.

    I get the whole Rudy G broken window of policing. But damn….give him the ticket and get out of his fucking face.

    At the end of the day, I have a feeling we are about to have a police shortage in these areas. Just too risky to work in these communities. Grocery stores can make a killing in these areas if the feral crime rate wasn’t so bad. So they all left.

    No fresh fruit. Now no cops.

  125. No street lights, no grocery stores, no cafes…no nothing…..coyotes and wild dogs…..even deer. That’s the end game. I’ll give you a tour, R. Truely feral. All of it.

  126. if he couldn’t breathe he couldn’t say ‘I can’t breathe’”.

    That was if a “choke hold” were applied, “R”. Therefore, no illegal choke hold was applied because you can’t speak in a choke hold. Somebody misspoke, obviously. Obviously, Garner couldn’t breathe because he’s dead – I’m guessing the combination of Garner’s morbid obesity and the guy sitting on his back had a lot more to do with asphyxiation than the hold around his neck did.

  127. Rabbit, maybe the dystopia you’re describing NEEDS to happen. Maybe the problem in these urban areas is they HAVEN’T hit bottom yet.

    Maybe the turnaround occurs once they do.

  128. “Rabbit, maybe the dystopia you’re describing NEEDS to happen. Maybe the problem in these urban areas is they HAVEN’T hit bottom yet.

    Maybe the turnaround occurs once they do.”

    A turnaround doesn’t occur. What occurs is a contagion effect.

    The disease doesn’t die…it spreads.

  129. A quick look at the video reveals that Garner was not the victim of a “chokehold” that compromised his airway – his was a “vascular” choke that compromised his carotid arteries – a so-called “sleeper” hold used in combat sports and real combat.

    Likely his air hunger was due to his being held on his obese stomach, with the thugs’ weight bearing down on him – and certainly that was unpleasant – but likely his death was due to a shutoff of blood to his head.

    Actually, worldwide, a not-uncommon cause of manslaughter-deaths during sex, when the girl wants to “try something kinky,” but in those cases, it is usually done by her partner from the front.

    Sometimes, when they vedgie, they don’t revive. Ask David Carradine about that.

  130. Ambulance-chaser, re: constabulary malpractice: “Also, who do you think would like pay [sic] a judgment for the cop’s actions and do you think it serves your purpose of “accountability?”

    The same people who pay American medical malpractice awards – the public. When the doctor’s malpractice premiums go up, their fees go up. They don’t pay for the ambulance-chasers’ multimillion-dollar estates – the patients do.

    Not a problem here, by the way.

  131. Sorry, Rutherford. I was unclear when I noted that “Brown” says it all. I meant Brown, the “school,” not Brown the man. Long day. Time for a brew.

  132. Embattled MIT professor Jonathan Gruber has not only gotten in trouble for bragging about helping President Obama put one over on the American people with Obamacare, he’s also been uncovered as an abortion advocate—but not a run-of-the-mill advocate of “women’s rights.”

    No, Gruber’s abortion advocacy is of a particularly pungent eugenics variety. He’s on record repeatedly making the case from social science that abortion is a “social good” because it reduces the number of “marginal children,” by which he means urban poor—those he says can be counted on to commit crimes if they were ever born.

    Gruber co-authored a paper during the Clinton years which argued that legal abortion had saved the U.S. taxpayer upwards of $14 billion in welfare benefits and that it also lowered crime.

    Now, this is actual dog whistle material, and surprise, surprise, it comes from the left. R, did you know that in NYC, the most dangerous place for a black person is in the womb: 60% of African-American babies in NYC are aborted. And apparently Gruber, and certainly the legacy of Margaret Sanger, approve…

  133. “likely his death was due to a shutoff of blood to his head”
    “He died because he had a medical condition.”

    This is why I am wondering about what the autopsy said. Death by homicide means he was killed by another person. But it doesn’t speak to the medical reasons why he died.

    Perhaps this is some evidence that the GJ got that we haven’t?

  134. Rutherford, I saw the video too, and I thought “What?” I was treated much more violently than Garner was, and I am still here. Maybe parts I didn’t see were harsh, but for one to interpret what we saw on the news as violent sets the standard pretty low.

    It looked like a slow motion action scene from a high school play. I waited for the terrible choke hold and again maybe unseen video was more deadly,but I know what it takes and saw nothing like it in the video.

    You put your right arm around the victim’s neck and force your left arm against his throat as with as much pressure as your strength will allow. The victim struggles for a bit and then, the muscles relax as the complexion changes to more vivid colors.

    Gardner was a sick man, and his gentle treatment should not have killed him. I think as others have said, he was in a position which forced his great bulk onto his already partly clogged lungs. I fault the police for disregarding his “I can’t breath.” Had he been in the head lock I described, he would have said nothing because his air supply was cut off.. I know because I did it.

  135. Victor Davis Hanson PJ Media.Ripples of Ferguson”

    “That five to six thousand African Americans are murdered each year, the vast majority by other blacks-more than aggregate American dead in iraq from five years of intense fighting-is not so important as the single death of Michael Brown, at least as evidenced by media and community reactions. Also not important is the disproportionality of African-American crime rates in which a small fraction of the population-young, male African-American- is largely responsible for 50% of annual homicides committed.”

    “Just as the ethics reformer in the White House has left a legacy of unprecedented presidential scandal, so too the racial healer has presided over the greatest erosion in racial relations in the last half century. That is the lesson of Ferguson and Fergusons to come–and the backlash outrages to Fergusons to come–and on and on and on.”

  136. I’m thinking this was a trial run….

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/192f1e8194bb4599840ac6ad67c85dc4/chlorine-gas-leak-sickens-19-furry-convention

    “ROSEMONT, Ill. (AP) — Chlorine gas sickened several people and forced the evacuation of thousands of guests from a suburban Chicago hotel early Sunday, including many dressed in cartoonish animal costumes for an annual furries convention who were ushered across the street to a convention center hosting a dog show.
    […]
    The source of the gas was apparently chlorine powder left in a ninth-floor stairwell at the hotel, according to the Rosemont Public Safety Department. Investigators believe the gas was created intentionally and are treating it as a criminal matter.”

    Everyone is in costume. Video, if there is any, will be worthless.

  137. “Just as the ethics reformer in the White House has left a legacy of unprecedented presidential scandal, so too the racial healer has presided over the greatest erosion in racial relations in the last half century. That is the lesson of Ferguson and Fergusons to come–and the backlash outrages to Fergusons to come–and on and on and on.”

    Perhaps the most ironic of end results from the so called ‘Hope & Change’, ‘Post Racial’ President.

    Barack Obama’s many colossal failures are legendary and will be discussed for years to come – as will their consequences. We’re only now starting to see how utterly vacuous this man when it came to conducting foreign policy. Our domestic policy is no policy.

    It can’t be debated now without rank intellectual dishonesty involved – does anybody from the Left really think Barack Obama hasn’t been their worst political nightmare?

    In a way of sorts, as a Conservative I probably should thank Barack Obama. This fraud has done more to make my case about how debased the misnamed “Progressive Politic” really is, than 10 good Republican Presidents in a row could have.

  138. It’s quite the irony that Gruber’s Nazi type of racism, in which he gleefully celebrates the annihilation of lesser humans, is welcomed in the same political circles who could very well try to ruin somebody’s life for using the term black instead of African American.

  139. All mental masturbation. Bobo’s antics and the media hyped racial dust up is all diversion keeping us divided and defeated while global chessboard positioning is taking place to further curb liberty and subdue vitality. Good news is happening behind the constant smoke and mirror snews. There is rising effort to snub tptb.

  140. “Some folks are bending over backwards to defend this take down from the “he was sick” to the asinine “if he couldn’t breathe he couldn’t say ‘I can’t breathe’” -Rutherford

    .

    Personally I’m not “defending this takedown.”

    “The video is hard to watch, but I wonder if some of that is because we know what happened. We hear Gardner say “I can’t breathe” and we know those turn out to be his last words. What the cops hear when he says “I can’t breathe” is that he can breathe. Again from their training. I’m not even sure he died from asphyxiation – I haven’t heard that.”

    According to the autopsy he didn’t die of asphyxiation. Garner wasn’t being choked. The cop appears to be applying a submission hold – which is not banned – and the autopsy results seem to support that. When Garner says “I can’t breathe” I interpreted that to mean something different to us as it might have to the cops, that’s all. If you disagree, fine, but you haven’t really said anything powerful or persuasive to counter the idea.

    In any case, my main point was that we don’t need political opportunists sending the wrong messages and more people getting killed as a result.

  141. “This is why I am wondering about what the autopsy said. Death by homicide means he was killed by another person. But it doesn’t speak to the medical reasons why he died.” -Huck

    I might have been referring to the preliminary results from August. I guess if the results had been released you wouldn’t be wondering. Just wanted to clarify that Huck.

  142. Gee, I can’t tell how many of those “unarmed people of color” were killed by “armed police of color” or were justifiably killed. I see Brown is one of them.

    Why is that? Does such a list of not exist? Is there a statistic of some sort buried in there that is supposed to make use feel some sense of reverence or do the lives of “unarmed white people” not matter?

    Just kidding. We all get the point. Black people are not immune from being killed by cops, right? 🙄

  143. Huck – “I guess if the results had been released you wouldn’t be wondering” should be read to mean I thought they had been released but maybe not.

  144. Muffy, they may well have been. I really know next to nothing about the whole thing, which is why I’m not saying much about it.

  145. Some of those unarmed people brought their troubles onto themselves by breaking the law or doing what a police officer interpreted to be threatening. Probably few or none deserved to be killed, but so many of them were “pulling on Superman’s cape.” Lurker might also post a list of police officers who were assaulted or killed last year, but the list would be too long for this blog.

    Its a small thing, but “people of color” offends me.I am white. White is a color. it is even more inclusive of other colors because it is a combination.

  146. Since JAL likes to use hack sites to justify her incredibly Leftist and I might add now obviously failed tendencies, why don’t we simply follow JAL’s tacit intent of demonizing police as cold blooded killers, and simply require by law that black neighborhoods not be subjected to policing at all?

    And we can then simply sit around for a few months to observe the results. 😈

    JAL? Can we add your neighborhood to that mix? I want you to be completely safe from the killers. How about it, wise lady?

    I swear, if you’re not Densico, you ought to be.

  147. LOL Actually James I doubt you’re “white”; otherwise you’d look pretty sickly. 🙂

    The whole white/black thing can look so absurd if you really think about it.

  148. In my home town, there was a dispute some years back about the other side of the tracks (North Tulsa – predominately black and poor) was being unfairly represented without grocery shops, businesses, and the like. It was all racist, mind you. If you haven’t read the sappy stories of Black Wall Street (cough cough) from the early ’20s being destroyed during a riot, you haven’t read real America. Almost 100 years later, our local rag is still blaming us white guys for burning Black Wall Street (cough cough) to the ground and lynching I don’t know how many saints. We’ve built parks, civic centers, YMCA’s, dedication walls, and numerous other community sites to soothe the puckered asses, and it seems to have been become even more active since Benevolent Barack elected Most Irreverent Pope.

    So some of these bleeding heart, Leftist activists used a whole bunch of tax breaks and philanthropy to place a grocery store and some strip shops into North Tulsa. The grocery stores were owned by a rich Hispanic who also has very Leftist tendencies. The openings were celebrated with huge parties, banners, parades, and celebrity.

    About two years later, the grocery store is closed, the strip shopping centers stripped.

    This “White Hispanic” rich guy couldn’t afford to keep the grocery store open due to theft, break ins, the black businesses went to shit even with interest free loans and financing, the cries of racism never ceased.

    But you won’t hear that in the media or read about the failure in the paper. Because see, it’s white privilege that is to blame.

  149. Tex the one thing that surprises me is the ghetto is in North Tulsa. I thought most ghettos were on the South side of town. 🙂

    Then again, Harlem is northern Manhattan.

  150. I’m Conan O’Brien white Rutherford. Its true I’m not as white as snow, but I’m so light a picture of the sun turns my skin red.

    The black poor part of town is in North Omaha while the Hispanics occupy the south with Poles and other middle Europeans.

  151. I don’t have the answers. I believe we can and should do better that this. I have met a few police along the way but there is not one I would give the power to be judge, jury and executioner.

    The men on the list were unarmed. They were not mass murders; most were nothing more that petty criminals. A few were just in the wrong place. In one situation several officers shot 50 rounds at one unarmed man. In another, not included, several officers shot 81 rounds in 5 seconds hitting the man 22 times. They had turned their attack dog on him, but in those 5 seconds they shot their own dog. (They had the dog air lifted to the vets but let the man lay in the street to die.) IMO, if you are firing that many rounds you are not in control and should not have a weapon. Are they firing in fear? Or in total disregard for the life of another human? Or because they feel they are above the law?

    It seems some of you find this is acceptable for police to respond in this manner. Why is that? When does it become unacceptable?

  152. Acceptable. In what manner? The one you described? Hadn’t heard of it before and don’t know the details.

    I heard Brown was gunned down in the streets like a dog. Shot in the back with hands in the air.

  153. I heard Brown was gunned down in the streets like a dog. Shot in the back with hands in the air.

    Cut the bullshit.

    What did he do that he deserved to die. He was running away from Wilson. Was Wilson in danger at the moment he shot Brown. Brown allegedly stole $50 worth of cigars and rough handled an employee. Just what happened between Wilson and Brown at the car? We will only know Wilson’s side of the story. But once Brown took off Wilson’s life was no longer in danger. So why did he need to shoot at that time? Wilson could identify Brown and the store employee as well. Wilson could have followed Brown while calling for back up.

    Google – Deandre Brunston 2003.

  154. “Hat tip to Gruber!”

    Lol.
    I should have been able to come up with that quip myself. My shtick game been weak for years now.

    Anyone here go through steel guitar phases?

    Just can’t get enough sometimes.

  155. No. We know all of the witnesses testimony. All of it was released. Read any of it or wasn’t it important to you?

    I gotta wonder what cop being overpowered is supposed to do. Well, let’s ask JAL. She seems to know.

    Hey, here’s an unarmed black man. What ya do JAL?

  156. “Wilson and Brown at the car? We will only know Wilson’s side of the story”

    That is a falsehood, mam. There are other witnesses’ accounts in the grand jury evidence. Plus powerful forensic evidence.

    So…what you are actually doing is lying.

  157. JAL according to the excerpts of grand jury evidence that I’ve heard, Brown first got wounded struggling with Wilson at his vehicle.

    Now we can question whether Wilson HAD to pursue Brown once Brown started running but once Brown reversed course and charged toward the officer, he lost all sympathy with me.

    Brown attacked Wilson. Garner did NOT attack Pantaleo. It’s like night and day.

  158. Yeah, JAL. I’ll be more than happy to answer your question when you provide answers to Tigre’s questions. I’d like a quid pro quo this time – you have tendencies to slink off when cornered.

    Beside, JAL. Let’s consider the attitudes of some of these fine, young, pious black men this thug cops have to deal with on a daily basis.

  159. So is DHS already refusing to enforce the law because of an Executive Order that King Obama hasn’t actually issued yet?

    His Highness went on TV (well..on those networks that actually carried it, anyway) and gave a bunch of talking points about his plan. But the actual order has yet to materialize.

    Lucky for Rutherford…who was going to wait and see what the EO actually said before making any kind of opinion on its legality.

    Obama and his lawyers know this is against the law, so they want to try and limit culpability by not giving a paper trail to define what exactly it is he is—and isn’t—doing.

    Who wants to bet it was all done over email…..

  160. Racist-in-chief speaks…

    President Obama — in his first televised interview since a Staten Island grand jury decided not to indict the New York cop who killed Eric Garner — said Monday that “bad training” and a “fear of folks who look different” in a small number of police departments across the U.S. have contributed to the ongoing mistrust between law enforcement and minority communities.

    “The vast majority of law enforcement officers are doing a really tough job, and most of them are doing it well and are trying to do the right thing,” Obama said during a one-on-one interview with BET Networks that aired Monday. “But a combination of bad training, in some cases, a combination in some cases of departments that really are not trying to root out biases, or tolerate sloppy police work; a combination in some cases of folks just not knowing any better, and in a lot of cases, subconscious fear of folks who look different — all of this contributes to a national problem that’s going to require a national solution.”

    “This country is at its best when everybody is being treated fairly. We have a history and a legacy of people not being treated fairly in all kinds of walks of life,” he said during the 30-minute special, titled “A Conversation with President Barack Obama.” “It is particularly important for people to feel like they’re being treated fairly by law enforcement and police, because the consequences when they’re not treated fairly can be deadly.”

    The comments represent some of Obama’s most explicit thoughts yet in the weeks and months since grand juries refused to return indictments in the deaths of Eric Garner, in Staten Island, and Michael Brown, in Ferguson, Mo. — both black males killed by white police officers.

  161. Lurker, this is a who’s who list of idiots. First, what percentage were killed in the commission of a crime? Second, how many were killed for stupidity? What’s left is your list of tragedy, and of that, were they killed because they were black, or because the law enforcement officer was an idiot?

    The most atrocious thing here: “shot 81 rounds in 5 seconds hitting the man 22 times

    That is just criminal. If only 25% of your shots are on mark, you’re supposedly a “trained marksman”, you should not have a weapon on the streets. This is the kind of stuff that gets innocent people killed.

    Finally, reading through probably the first couple dozen names, it is clear Gawker has an agenda and probably is not providing the full context of the situations. SHOCKER!!!

    Pro tip: next time, just go to the source, in this case the NAACP, because Gawker is abject shit. I guess it shouldn’t be surprising that you venture there in the first place…

  162. Cut the bullshit.

    What did he do that he deserved to die. He was running away from Wilson. Was Wilson in danger at the moment he shot Brown. Brown allegedly stole $50 worth of cigars and rough handled an employee. Just what happened between Wilson and Brown at the car? We will only know Wilson’s side of the story. But once Brown took off Wilson’s life was no longer in danger. So why did he need to shoot at that time? Wilson could identify Brown and the store employee as well. Wilson could have followed Brown while calling for back up.

    Google – Deandre Brunston 2003. — Idiot formerly known as Lurker

    The first time? Yeah, he was in danger. I know this is foreign to someone like you, who has never been expected to defend the life or lives of others. The concept is just so foreign to people like you, that somehow, something must be done and there are only a few people to do it. HE’S A POLICE OFFICER. Yes, he HAS to chase Brown and arrest him, because Brown just committed FELONY ASSAULT on a POLICE OFFICER. Police are the second to last line of defense in our communities, and if they cannot enforce the law, then things get really rough, really fast.

    Like Tigre, I eagerly await your trained, expert opinion on what those Cops should have done. Of course, I doubt you’ve the integrity to admit when you’re stupid…

  163. At least one Vietnam platoon leader gathered his men together after one of their mates was killed or wounded and told in detail how they had made mistakes which led to their misfortune.

    I was in a dangerous position too. At least I thought I was after I woke with a knife on my throat, and was later slightly tortured. The squadron lottery which had bets on when I would be hospitalized with a secondary bet on my ultimate survival were also hints. So were my status as a pariah from anger of others and fear by a few that associating with me would harm them also.

    I was alone. it seemed even God had forsaken me, and I knew that even my superiors wanted something to happen to me for the higher good of using me as bait to press heavier charges to get rid of the bad guys for good. I knew it would get out of hand, because it was a small scale Benghazi without terrorists and morters. Terror hardly describes my state of mind, and I had to hide it all. I put on a brave front on the nights twenty men came in the night and surrounded me and my bed, or when someone lept at me from behind doors in the hospital where we worked.

    I knew they were going to kill me. It was only a matter of time. They actually did try at least three times, only they weren’t very good at it. I took note of that. I decided to take some with me, so I planed and rehearsed in my mind every few hours for three months.. I carried a knife, not a pistol to insure that I wouldn’t panic and do something which placed me in legal jepordy. They had to make the first move so I could declare self defense. I imagined who would do what and considered the options I had. In the end, I was no longer afraid. I just wanted it over, and I wanted to kill someone.

    I learned that an unarmed man can assault or kill someone with a weapon, if the armed one panics or makes a mistake. I have little sympathy for the people who died from police bullets, because blatant incompetence is an awful thing. A clueless person who attempts what most of those people did deserves to die. As a matter of fact, some who were habitual petty criminals or worse did society and tax payers a favor by inadvertently checking out when they did. Inept police officers who over reacted also deserved and should have been punished too. They should not wear a badge.

    I hold those perps and victims in contempt. They should have thought and controlled themselves or have changed their behavior to improve their odds of survival.. Threatening an armed police officer without understanding his /her state of mind or by fleeing or otherwise resisting without a good plan is the height of stupidity. They had better understand a police officer can panic or may be a sadist. Both people,the cop and the perp need to do what I did or they deserve what they get.

    I also hold the ineptitude of liberals’ attempts to change perps into innocent victims. Lurker’s attempt to paint us with an unfeeling, maybe racist color was too blatant. She might have listed white people killed by black officers or other whites to sugar coat her implied racist attack.. She like other liberals shows little anguish over the deaths. For these people, they are pursuing an agenda. The deaths don’t matter as much to the ghouls as the agenda. They will probably get away with it.

    Garner should not have died over his relatively gentle treatment. He was sick. The cops should have listened when he said “I can’t breathe.” They should be sued for their mistake. Garner still brought it onto himself. Ineptitude will get you.

    Now, Rutherford, you know why I took a vacation when you gave us this subject. My experience could have happened yesterday. it is still vivid.

    Here is another good natured dig at you, Rutherford. Coast to Coast discussed the over trillion dollar transfer of wealth which is moving from oil producers to consumers right now. Enemies like Russia and Iran are suffering pain as oil prices fall. The economist said “As much as it pains me to admit it, Sarah Palin was right when she said ‘drill baby drill.'”..yet another example of liberal ineptitude.

  164. I see the Dem’s hair raising on their pencil necks as they savage Jonathan Gruber today. Too good. 😆 Trying to cover their tracks and protect their useful idiots from the dirty little secret they don’t want anyone to know.

    Reid, Pelosi and Obama see Americans the same way as Jonathan Gruber.

  165. Dems are spineless pussies. They ram this down America’s throat through procedural gamesmanship, attack republicans with false accusations or racism and malevolence rather than honest debate about this stinking pile of shit, don’t read or understand the fucking bill before voting on it because they are as stooopid and easily mislead as the liberal constituents Gruber mocks, don’t care what it provides so long as they can walk around congratulating themselves with a giant novelty gavel and other gimmicks, then when the truth is inadvertently revealed . . .

  166. Racist-in-chief speaks…

    G if that BET interview excerpt upset you, you need to seek help.

    Now, if you’re saying Obama should have said nothing, that’s one thing. But once he opens his mouth, that statement you quoted is about as fair and well balanced as it could be.

    Do you deny there are a very small minority of explicitly and tacitly racist cops? Do you deny some cops are poorly trained? Do you deny that most cops do the best they can at a dangerous job?

    That’s all Obama said. I don’t get your beef.

  167. “As much as it pains me to admit it, Sarah Palin was right when she said ‘drill baby drill.'”..yet another example of liberal ineptitude.

    Now James you know a broken clock is right twice a day.

  168. At what point, through all of this, have we heard POTUS defend the rule of law? I can’t think of when he has, which is not all that surprising since his actions belie that line of thinking in the first place.

    Has he once come out and said, “hey, police brutality is a matter for all Americans to be concerned with, but this sainthood being placed on Mike Brown, who was killed in the commission of a violent felony, is not the example we should be holding up. Further, the fix has to come from both sides: law enforcement and its tactics in and around minority communities, and minority communities themselves, and how they conduct themselves in a manner consistent with the law.”

    That would be nice to hear, but it won’t happen because he’s out there campaigning again on the backs of dead, black, criminals…

  169. You see, this is what frustrates me about libs on this forum. I’d like to see more back and forth from JAL. I’m the only lib who regularly visits the place – and I own it!

  170. Ha ha! Rutherford.

    I agree. Lurker should bring her friends and appear every day. Too many of them are like hit and run guerillas. They can’t stand the heat.

  171. JAL is the proverbial lit shit bagger on the front porch, accompanied by one ring of the doorbell, “R.” 😈

    An utter coward.

    But then most Leftists are when push comes to shove as you’ve recently experienced. But JAL is soldier compared to FakeName – Fake is relegated to voicing her displeasure 3rd party. LOL

  172. R, this is a great example of my anger:

    I’m perfectly willing to concede as fact that police get out of line. I’m not willing to concede to A) it is a condition of racial genocide, B) that the contextual conditions of criminal demographics don’t play a large part of the problem, or C) that cultural drivers in personal conduct, socio-economic goals, human value, or legal perceptions don’t fuel the problem.

    Black men get a bad rap, but it is a rap of their own making, which then promotes a profile of criminal behavior. This is compounded by cultural drivers that glorify criminal activity.

    None of these people have legitimacy anymore because they’re not acting in civil disobedience, they are acting as criminals. I have very little patience and tolerance for criminals…

  173. And prime example…

    The president of Smith College was forced to apologize after she sent out a campus wide email saying “all lives matter” instead of the rally cry of Ferguson protesters—“black lives matter.”

    In the original email, obtained by Campus Reform, Kathleen McCartney used “all lives matter” in the email detailing the “struggle” and “hurt” the Smith community was experiencing following the non-indictment of Officer Darren Wilson, who fatally shot teenager Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri.

    “We gather in vigil, we raise our voices in protest; yet we wake again to news of violence that reminds us, painfully, of the stark reality of racial injustice,” McCartney wrote.

    McCartney also announced the college’s plan to institute a new Chief Diversity Officer to support programs and conversations to advance social justice.

    However, it was the subject line that had Smith students up in arms. Students took to social media to chastise McCartney, blaming her skin color for her lack of understanding.

    “No, Kathy. Please do not send out an email saying ‘All lives matter.’ This isn’t about everyone, this is about black lives,” Sophia Buchanan, a Smith student, said on Twitter.

  174. Tex, the white Berkley college students’ “die in” on the railroad tracks is priceless. Talk about ruining the Ferguson street cred.

  175. A Congresswoman from Wyoming just told a personal tragedy (her husband’s death) caused by delays from Obamacare that will go down in the halls of infamy, reducing these two arrogant Leftists Gruber and Tavenner, to a mass of goo.

    Trey Gowdy lit Gruber up and it was a thing of beauty. But this grandmotherly woman’s testimony was mesmerizing. I’ll see if I can find the video tonight.

    She ended it with a statement to Gruber, paraphrased: “Get over your damned glibness. This policy has real consequences on real people.” The place went silent for several seconds.

  176. Thank you, Huck. That Gowdy cross examination continues to amuse and amaze me. This Gowdy is a master at political examination – as good as anybody I remember. And Issa’s last little question was quite profound too, hey Barack & Co.

    Gruber may be rich off the public dole. But tonight, he doesn’t have an ally in the world. Welcome to hell, Mr. Gruber. 🙂

  177. That Congresswoman’s statement is gut wrenching. What do all you Obama fans out there say to the woman, folks? Is all this ACA banter just a political football game now?

    Or maybe in a moment of introspection, do you realize the danger in politicizing everything?

    For those of you like JAL, my hope is that you don’t suffer the consequences should a war between races play out, and that you might give some thought to goading into anger a battle where you may suffer something more than a political defeat at the ballot box.

    Her loss may become your loss.

  178. What an utter spineless worm Gruber is…..

    What Gruber is, is the consummate Leftist politician masquerading as subject matter expert. I suspect Mr. Jonathan Gruber is only one subject out of of millions in the “progressive” party that are just like him when off stage and in the presence of their peers.

    Barack Hussein Obama, Valerie Jarrett, Eric Holder, Elizabeth Warren, and Hillary “It takes a Village” Clinton come to mind.

  179. Tell you what I witnessed today boys and girls, because I once was a “subject matter expert” of some relatively complex modeling that doled out millions of dollars per year in monies used to fund the building of state-of-the-art road stops and gas stations – not too dissimilar to what Jonathan Gruber would claim as expertise, albeit a much smaller scale concerning monies and demographic.

    While the tools used were not complex, the modeling was – the tools consisted of nothing more than some SQL code, a relational database, some Visual Basic code, mapping software, and finally a one sheet, financial model utilizing Excel, which I then submitted to the printer. While the mathematics of the model was complex, the ‘sophistication’ courtesy of Microsoft made the financial administration of the model a piece of cake once the data available.

    And what I discovered was (the hard way), these sophisticated models can be used two ways:

    (1) To provide real analysis of internal rates of return, NPV, cash flows, and real worth or in Mr. Gruber’s case cost savings

    or

    (2) With a few keystrokes a wonderful tool to back into any result executive management needed it to be. Just substitute CBO as executive management and my situation was not too different than Mr. Grubers.

    And all it depends upon is a determination of whether the data will drive the results, or the results will drive the data.

    Mr. Gruber figured that out too. But unlike Jonathan, I walked away from the best job I ever had when it became apparent it was being misused. At least I think was smart enough to realize I might be liable for the abuse – bottom man of the pole.

    I only wish I had made what Mr. Gruber made before leaving. 😡

  180. They’re also representative of your political ideology. Momma always said to pick who you associate with because you’ll be judged by their actions.

    So, according to your Momma, you’re an asswhole…

    Just saying…. 😉

  181. “Gruber may be rich off the public dole. But tonight, he doesn’t have an ally in the world” -Tex

    What I don’t understand about the man is why show up and be a bipartisan snot rag?

    I was cringing for him as a man.

    Like Tex said, everybody there hates you and there is no changing that.

    Why not 100 percent stick to your guns and go down as the ultimate tell like it is asshole instead of a groveling half man asshole? What a disgrace. And I’m not talking politics. Can you imagine watching that testimony if Gruber was your Dad?

    He meant every word of what he said. You can’t explain that a way. What I saw today….errrrrrr!

    What is he afraid of? Do you think the libs are so evil they would come after his family or set him up for something?

    I know I sound like a poolman….. But, what did he gain from that laughing stock humiliation today?

    Put Gruber down on the list as yet another progressives I would throw in the mud, put my boot on his chest and take a massive beer piss on.

  182. Can anybody, especially Liberals, tell me what was gained by the enhanced interrogation techniques report released today? Anything besides endangering the people protecting us and enraging the enemy – a charge that you hypocrites used to condemn Bush for daily. The people accused were not even interviewed. This is very much like assuming those fraternity members at UVA being accused of rape are still guilty while the Rolling Stone Story and the supposed victim’s story is falling apart. This is Duke LaCrosse, all over again – only now real people may lose their lives on account of it.

    I’ll be honest with you Libs, to a lesser degree Rutherford than the rest of you. Today, I was reminded why I truly disdain the Left in this country and hold you in contempt. And I mean that. You disgust me.

    When you schmucks support things like this, and I can only surmise it is done for no other reason to aid and abet the enemy because you hate America and you believe it makes for good politic and it ain’t you hanging in the wind; added to the fact you’re trying to delegitimize the entire system for what ever reason, the only conclusion I can draw is you don’t give a damn about American interests or the people protecting us and you’re still yelling ‘baby killer’ of another form.

    If you were truly concerned with how this makes America look in the world’s eyes, then you surely be even louder about the use under Obama’s command to use drones, where children are indiscriminately killed along with the terrorist.

    One last thing. One of these people you Libs want to humanize and lament over as victim is no other than Khalid Sheik Mohammad – the architect that led to 3,000 American deaths. It doesn’t get more monstrous than this demon.

    And let me go on record I don’t give a damn what any CIA agent does to Khalid Sheik Mohammad. They can saw his head off, they can ram a car up his ass, they can put him in a 600 ton press and make a pancake out of the SOB, they can cut his balls off and shove them down his throat.

    You Leftists supporting this shit are the worst form of ingrates and scum.

  183. I’m with you DR. That Gruber is one dickless fuck. If he had even one ball he’d admit he was telling the truth, tell them they know it, and suck it.

    I love the dems acting like they were betrayed somehow. Anyone with half a brain knew what the whole Obamacare scam was about.

  184. Damn, I forget how proud I was to cast my very first Presidential vote for Ronald Reagan – the only great President I ever lived under.

    If we could only find another one like him. I’m convinced they are out there.

  185. Interesting video interviews of Ferguson protestors.

    I am struck by the thought that if these selfsame people were wearing breechclouts and carrying spears, nobody would find their comments odd. The civilized gentry would just shake their heads and say, “That kind of ignorance is why the tribal areas of Africa are still in the pre-stone-age.”

    Then it occurred to me: It’s not the skin color, Rutherford; it’s the stunning ignorance. Just listen to these folks. The ignorance, the lack of education, the predisposition to violence. And because these folks have no comeback to that kind of legitimate criticism, they drop back and take the cheap shot: “You don’t like me and you hold me back ’cause I’m black.” No, people don’t like you because you’re fucking worthless. Productive blackfellas are accepted without a second glance, and you know it, Rutherford – and so does everyone else.

    Actually, I sort of feel bad for you; you’re not one of “them” anymore, but I believe you feel compelled to offer them at least tacit support, as your “people.” Don’t do it. You are helping liberal America shield them from the truth they NEED to hear.

    Nobody who matters is buying that “America is racist” stuff anymore. Nobody.

  186. “Can anybody, especially Liberals, tell me what was gained by the enhanced interrogation techniques report released today?”

    Because what was done in your name and the name of your country is in strict violation of the Geneva Convention. Those are agreements among “civilized” countries concerning the treatment of noncombatants and combatants no longer engaged in hostilities, such as prisoners of war. Specifically, torture is forbidden.

    People who violate these agreements are, in fact, war criminals – no matter who they are – and not to put too fine a point on it, but that includes your former president. And any country who hopes to lead the world must face up to – and confess – such criminality, and vow to never do it again. This report is a good start.

    Your ACLU has suggested that President Obama issue official Presidential pardons to those involved, to emphasize that what they did is in fact illegal. And no amount of, “Do what you have to do to protect us,” makes it right or acceptable. That is, of course, what all the despots throughout history have said, isn’t it?

  187. If Gruber is this large of an idiot, then why hasn’t MIT fired him yet?

    Gruber is pathetic. I agree with everybody in this room (so far), I have no respect for him as a man. He’s a rank coward. I might have given Gruber a grudging respect if he had simply stood up and admitted, “Yeah, I think this solution is good for America. And Yeah, I think most Americans are too stupid to understand the complexity of it. And I’ll stand by my work. You’re damn right I’m the architect of Obamacare. I know more than any of you clowns about the American medical system and its costs.”

    But here’s the dirty secret I’ve been screaming about for years, Gorilla. These SOBs at MIT and Harvard, Yale and Princeton, Stanford and Duke, Columbia and Dartmouth, are convinced they’re the smartest people in the world. Their opinion is that the entire South and flyover country are made up of Neanderthals and troglodytes. My daughter learned a lesson at Duke as she sat in a dinner full of Ivy types during a medical interview recently. Medicine in the South was arcane, medieval, not worthy. She sat there in silence but was highly offended.

    “Dad, I’ve been working at Andersen for almost two years now. It’s considered the premier oncology hospital in the world. Who do these vain people think taught me about the practice of medicine? Idiots?”

    It’s an unfounded, profound arrogance, steeped in an even more profound ignorance of the world around them. They don’t know shit about the world between Boston and San Francisco, and whats more, they don’t care. It’s they that are unworldly and ignorant. Barack Obama is part of this group. If our country collapsed they couldn’t take care of themselves unless they were able to buy it.

    Gruber is not a fringe element at MIT. Gruber is the prototypical asshole teaching at MIT. What you witnessed with Gruber is the curtain drawn. And that goes on every day.Liberal progressive America.

  188. You all should read Betsys page this morning. She doesn’t write it, but several events are inter- connected. The interrogation report, the Rolling Stone article, Laura Dunham, Gruber, the most notorious cop shootings, and probably the news media’s distortion through selective reporting of the Benghazi report.

    Sarah Palin was criticized in West Virginia when she said in a campaign speech that it was nice to be with real Americans. It was likely just a line to fire up the audience, but without knowing it she was right. These progressive people hold un American values and they support a foreign European ideology as I have written before. They don’t care any more about the people who defend us than the anti-war movement did in the sixties.

    I have also written that Sami singer Sofia Jannok has referred to an occupying regime. I don’t know if she heard Rush Limbaugh and carried it a step further, but she is also right. Parker is also right in a way he didn’t intend. These people are in their hearts, despots.

    Betsys Page demonstrates the evil nature of the people who released the interrogation report and quotes the report’s defenders. Investigators did not interview CIA agents or even the leader of the program. They ignored the information which was gained, and they also ignored their knowledge of and encouragement of the program as it was conducted. This was a Soviet-like attempt to re-write history as the other events also were.

    I’m this far from posting a Sofia Jannok video.

  189. Because what was done in your name and the name of your country is in strict violation of the Geneva Convention.

    Uh huh. I don’t even believe you believe what you just wrote. Geneva Convention? Against a mob that thinks nothing of sacrificing children to Allah and blends in with the women? A party of folks that would love nothing more to park a 10 megaton bomb in the heart of NYC.

    Did you understand these CIA people were not even interviewed and deny most of these charges? I can’t tell you how much I admire your hypersensitivity for Khalid Sheik Mohammad’s rights and privileges.

    If you’re really interested in learning something about Geneva Conventions and its ramifications conducting this War on Terror or whatever the euphemism we choose to use today, you need to pick up this Marcus Littrell book Lone Survivor and get a good understanding of the rules guys like you are now demanding of our soldiers and interrogators. You’re condemning many of our most outstanding soldiers and intelligence to needless death while you rest your sanctimonious fat ass in your recliner with toddy in hand, as you buddy up with the feckless hypocrites at the ACLU. You may find the ACLU not nearly as pious as you want to believe one day – the hard way.

    If you can come away from that book and still come to your conclusions which I find not only inane but abetting, then I suggest you bunk with the ‘baby killer’ crowd, the MSNBC groupies, the hypocrites at the ACLU, man that amazing gun expertise – and fight Al Qaeda yourself.

    Me? I will continue to appreciate the people putting their asses on the line to protect my kids and am more than willing to give a wide berth in their discretion on how to conduct that, so I can thank them when its through.

    Because frankly, I don’t think your life worth saving. And it damn sure isn’t worth one American soldier, one American interrogator, or one American child.

  190. So Gowdy’s line of questioning is that much more important. Was he sorry for saying it, or for meaning it. It is pretty clear he meant it, and it is something he believes, and I’m convinced that he’s just sorry he got caught. Further, I think he got his ass chewed by the WH and was told to fall on the sword.

  191. “Tex, the South gets its dumbass reputation from its worst examples. Same as blacks get their reputation.”

    Your response cracks me up.

    On the Southern/ Midwest ignorant/arrogant scale you’re just as bad an offender as I’ve encountered.

    I’ve spent enough time in the North East and South. What Tex said is just plain true.

  192. G, of course Gruber believed it and meant it. What he said was just a truism. Was there some kind of revelation here? Really? If there was one, he’d dispute it rather than make self-deprecating statements about his character flaws.

    It’s also why watching the dems attack him his just ridiculous. They’re trying to distance themselves from the truth Gruber spoke of — and other than that they would and will support it all over again. What a circle jerk.

  193. Tigre, you have to give Elijah Cummings credit for being honest about his outrage. He didn’t accuse Gruber of not meaning what he said. He just lambasted him for handing the Republican Party a public relations Christmas present.

  194. I thought you at least considered McCain a war hero.

    And jeesh that comment you quoted was supposed to say “report” not “support”. I’ll blame it on my getting used to my new iPhone 6.

  195. “Tigre, you have to give Elijah Cummings credit for being honest about his outrage.”

    Since he’s only feigning outrage by the scam NOW, no way Jose. He supported this dumb piece of shit legislation and if didn’t know what Gruber said was what was going on he’s a total fucking idiot. Most everyone you disagree with here said what Gruber said right here. On this blog. To you. Years ago. You’re a math guy. Gruber shouldn’t have said anything to you that you didn’t understand at the time. Seriously.

    Cummings is as big a douche as Gruber. Comical watching him unload and pretend to be duped to protect HIMSELF.

    You and Alfie might give Cummings a Big Ol’ Hat Tip. I’ll stick with the finger.

  196. Yeah, Cummings is outraged. Cummings is outraged that Gruber just blew the cover on what most of America has been saying for five years about our overseers from the academia and the feckless Obama Administration.

    Elijah Cummings is fraud and another race baiting mania prick, covering his own ass – not to different than the mold of Jon Jon Gruber. Cummings is simply less intelligent at expressing his arrogance while using a different avenue as his claim to fame – racissss. Cummings is a buffoon.

    I give that grievance hustler credit for nothing. Cummings is the scumbag that ran interference for Lois Lerner during the IRS investigation and looked Brian Terry’s family in the eye and assured them justice.

  197. “R”,

    I don’t know McCain’s issues or how he comes to his conclusions, but you might want to know there are many POWs that don’t agree with John McCain. And there’s a history of McCain. Perhaps McCain’s heroism is not what we’ve been told? Say, like John Kerry?

  198. All intended diversions. Enhanced interrogation is Orwellian language for the inhumane evil treatment of human beings. The negative connotation arising from the word torture is officially sidestepped and these ‘procedures’ become nationally branded as socially acceptable and even necessary to maintain our perceived peace and freedom. Never mind it gave/gives us no actual intelligence according to the real experts and was employed solely to justify our ‘official’ lies and illegal armed global aggression.

    The whole discussion is a major divide issue. How many supposed humanitarians have defended such abhorrent practices? Hypocrisy on such a national scale is unprecedented, but no longer surprising.

    But then we’ve been fed disinformation for decades in Amerika and have been well indoctrinated into the many false narratives our government has provided. Today, we are probably the least informed of all the world’s people. We think black is white and up is down and we are tasked to defend that ignorance even as it serves to destroy all of creation.

    Only by the grace of God have we not been completely annihilated from the physical realm before now. The way we’ve been walking nationally as of late is over top of some very shaky, shifting ground. Ignorance is bliss? I think ignorance cannot be a saving excuse. Be aware, karma is a bitch

    NATO is an aggressive force, as shown in Serbia, Afghanistan and Libya. It is a tool of neo-colonialist European powers. NATO cannot be trusted. Russia’s defensiveness concerning NATO is entirely justified.

    America is an aggressively expansionary force, with vast global ambitions, as shown by its attacks on Serbia, Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq, as shown by its drone wars in other countries like Pakistan and Yemen, as shown by its forces in Somalia and its other commitments in Africa, and as shown by its Pacific pivot and evident antagonism toward Russia. Russia’s defensiveness concerning the U.S. is justified.

    H.R. 758 reflects anachronistic thinking, but fighting enemies, real and imagined, has become an entrenched habit of American governments. Congress doesn’t want peace. It doesn’t want to exercise diplomacy. It doesn’t want to recognize a multipolar world and other major powers, not really. Congress wants a new and large outside enemy. Else, why would it be constructing one in the form of Putin and the Russian Federation?

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/12/michael-s-rozeff/declaring-war-on-russia/

  199. Cummings is as big a douche as Gruber. Comical watching him unload and pretend to be duped to protect HIMSELF.

    You’ve missed the point entirely. He’s not pretending he was duped. He’s honestly saying that Gruber gave the GOP a gift by telling the truth. That’s what cracked me up. Cummings “outrage” was PURELY political and unabashedly so.

  200. Yeah, Cummings is outraged. Cummings is outraged that Gruber just blew the cover on what most of America has been saying for five years about our overseers from the academia and the feckless Obama Administration.

    Yes and he was quite transparent about the source of his outrage. That’s what I got a kick out of.

  201. Ahhh I can only think back to the days when you were all so eager to welcome McCain and his half-wit partner into the White House and NOW suddenly McCain is a wack job who needs to be put out to pasture.

    Priceless!

  202. Never mind it gave/gives us no actual intelligence according to the real experts and was employed solely to justify our ‘official’ lies and illegal armed global aggression.

    I heard this line over and over again yesterday, and yet the people doing the interrogation and putting their ass on the line during the hunt(s) say just the opposite. It’s as if we’ve now discovered harsh language frightened all these barbarians into spilling their guts. Anybody but Poolman believe that? How about you, “Parker.”

    So I have two questions for you ACLU experts. Who are these experts claiming the interrogations gave us “no intelligence” and I would like some personal names. And exactly how did we obtain the information that led to the capture of hundreds of Al Qaeda operatives and by whose intelligence since coercion didn’t provide it.

    Like they said yesterday at the Feinstein debacle, the clarion call by none other than brave and pious Pfesser. America deserves to know. Now would be the time all you doves and assorted American hatin’, KSM sympathizing types put up or shut up. Otherwise, I’m calling everyone of you a participating liar and fraud.

  203. Ahhh I can only think back to the days when you were all so eager to welcome McCain and his half-wit partner into the White House and NOW suddenly McCain is a wack job who needs to be put out to pasture. Priceless!

    Actually, there’s a more simply reason I voted for McCain.

    Obama and Biden.

    If you can find one place where I’ve ever been highly complimentary of McCain, I will provide you a nice gift from Amazon. 😐

    And something else really priceless is you apparently fail to notice speaking of half-wits, or in your case, a dimwit. Joe Biden – Obama’s security blanket guaranteeing none of us would dare mention impeaching Obama.

  204. Tex common sense tells you people will say ANYTHING to get torture to stop. Yes, sometimes they may be coerced into telling the truth but surely just as often they will lie to get the pain to stop.

  205. The Geneva Convention doesn’t even apply to the jihadists. They didn’t sign it and they are not uniformed combatants. We were taught that such people had no legal rights beyond human decency. Moreover, they should be jailed until hostilities ended. That is what happened to most of our legitimate prisoners of war.

    Like Rutherford, I enjoyed the Cummings show.

    My aunt was rich and bought some of Iowa Beef and Berkshire Hathaway stock when Warren was traveling through the neighborhood hawking his cheap stock. She met another rich woman on a plane from New York City. They got along well, until my aunt told her where she was from and that she grew up on a farm. She still owned and lived on the farm where she spent her married life.

    The woman chilled toward her and my aunt laughed that her being on a farm made her a hick. Actually fly over farmers are more internationally inclined than the insular folks who look down on them. It is part of the job because agriculture is an international industry.

  206. Tex common sense tells you people will say ANYTHING to get torture to stop. Yes, sometimes they may be coerced into telling the truth but surely just as often they will lie to get the pain to stop.

    Not if accompanied by the promise “if you’re lying and we discover it” the pain won’t stop next time, there isn’t. 😈

    Capiche?

  207. “This administration does not take any prisoners, they prefer to kill them from afar, using drones,” Rodriguez said. “And somehow, they feel that because they kill from a distance, somehow, it’s more ethical … more ethical than the difficult and messy and unpleasant task and mission of actually interrogating prisoners. I think it’s a distortion of what our values are.” ~ Jose Rodriguez, former head of the CIA’s National Clandestine Service

  208. Rutherford, common sense is right most of the time, but not always. Questioners did get some information, some of which indirectly led to the murder of Osama bin Ladin. More humane methods get results with time. If time is limited other ways are faster. Anticipation and imagination work on the mind better sometimes than actual torture.

    Poolman, the United States is expansionist, and so is Russia. So is ISSA and a lot of white “nations.”A black blogger explained it all. Whites have the most obvious mutations of any race. From their skin to their eye color these mutations are badges of a horrible, life threatening time during the Ice Age.

    Whites also had time to think and plan on cold, dark nights. They as much as any “race” exterminated their neighbors for scarce resources.Not to do so was to die. Opportunity gave them plants and animals more adaptable to domestication than what was available in other parts of the world. They weren’t better or smarter than other races. They were lucky enough to get a head start, and the drive to survive which adversity strengthened led them to conquer and dominate the world with everything from military strength to song and clothing styles.

    I am glad the United States and western Europe dominate the world. It is better than the alternative as the blogger wrote. When the environment changes, another better adapted “race” will take over.

  209. Yes, I know MENSA Poolman we can all find links to support our conclusions. But your list provides opinion. See, I can do the same.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/10/politics/hayden-torture-report-response/

    However, Bob Kerry one of the critics of the Iraq War, wrote this yesterday…

    Democrats, he wrote in an op-ed for USA Today, “started out with the premise that the CIA was guilty and then worked to prove it.”

    The CIA’s defense that interrogation techniques did work provides a list of events that the interrogation did stop, or provide evidence including information leading to Bin Laden’s death – a dismal day for you, I realize.

    What I require from a multi-talented, multi-generational ward of the state like you is to help find out what humane techniques we used that led to Bin Laden’s capture.

    Can you do that for me, MENSA?

  210. 9-11 proves to be the most traitorous event in modern history. Maybe the lead up to WWII was as deceptive. There is more credible evidence that Osama died from natural causes in December 2001. I think your zero dark thirty CIA script was going after the patsy that assumed UBL identity for propaganda and wag the dog purposes. It was when this patsy was no longer useful that we made that raid in Pakistan. Then we dumped any and all evidence in the ocean, unknown to the crew of said vessel. Gullible is your middle name. LOL.

  211. “Damn, I forget how proud I was to cast my very first Presidential vote for Ronald Reagan – the only great President I ever lived under.” -Tex

    Tex, I used to agree with your above statement. I’m not so sure anymore. I voted for Reagan as a newly declared Republican in the Democratic world of Florida. People say they want America to return to being a country ruled by the values of Ronald Reagan. What were those values? If we are speaking of a time when thrift and hard work were rewarded and the government knew it’s place, then one needs to take note that federal-government employment rose in the Reagan years from 4.9M to 5.3M.

    Reagan inherited a federal budget of $599 billion in revenue, $678 billion in spending, and a deficit of $79 billion. He left office with a federal budget of $909 billion in revenue, a little less than $1.1 trillion in spending, and a deficit of $155 billion. Interesting Note: The current budget being approved by Congress is for 1.1 Trillion.

    Please NOTE before you slam me, I want to know if your reasons for voting for Reagan are still valid according to the current data . TEX “.And all it depends upon is a determination of whether the data will drive the results, or the results will drive the data.”

  212. “Ahhh I can only think back to the days when you were all so eager to welcome McCain and his half-wit partner into the White House and NOW suddenly McCain is a wack job who needs to be put out to pasture.”

    Priceless!
    Touché Rutherford 😆

  213. “Ahhh I can only think back to the days when you were all so eager to welcome McCain and his half-wit partner into the White House and NOW suddenly McCain is a wack job who needs to be put out to pasture.”

    It weren’t me. But I’d vote for Bernie Madoff and Paris Hilton before the two Bozos you put in office, twice, just to elevate the integrity and intellect from what we got now.

  214. R, I guess I don’t find Cummings’ statements about the cause of his disgust any different than what is said by your side on the floor and in the press without a raised brow. Par for the course in my opinion. Hell, Obama publicly declared Conservatives “the enemy” after taking office.

    But I do find it humorous that rail against the idiot Palin while your party is made up of legions of Cummings, Bidens, Hank Johnsons etc., etc., etc., etc., et.c, etc.,

  215. I don’t think McCain is a wack job. He is just misguided about torture. Palin may be a half-wit. That makes Obama a quarter wit. Touche back at you.

  216. Toobin, Poolman and other useful idiots for evil once again remind me why I think it absolutely necessary that much of this country begin taking the steps necessary with plan on paper on how it would secede from this current government, possibly starting with a document beginning with these words…one more election is not likely to change much.

    When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands

    With the physical plans and logistics of how it would be implemented.

    • OR –

    I hope our military, the same military who loathes its current Commander-in-Chief, is seeing things the way I am seeing them. Because they may be our last, best hope. A neighborhood of pistols, shotguns and deer rifles is no match for an Abrams tank. I would hope our fighting forces would either join the cause or simply step aside and choose to remain neutral.

    I know for a personal fact the former military I run with on occasion feel even stronger than I do about our current environment – one a retired colonel.

    You simply cannot defend a country any longer when vast swaths of the country and many cases government officials either no longer realize who the enemy is, and in fact indirectly and in some cases I believe purposely aid and abet those who would like nothing more than to kill us and our children; or, that I’m left with the conclusion these minds are so twisted and perverted in their self-denial, they wish to damage America like an child who excommunicates its parents – blaming their failures on America.

    And at least 1/2 the country is so clueless, they turn to the ballgame. They can’t even name the Vice President. They’ll be the first to fall.

    I do hope most of you realize we could no longer engage in a war like we did WWI or WWII in our current enlightened environment. Apparently, these tools of the Left’s disdain for loyalists like me must be greater than their fear of Al Qaeda. And I have to assume it’s these revolutionists’ idea of their idea of order – the same ones once convinced five years ago that the magnitude and power of Barack’s Obama’s personality and dialogue would restore world order. And we’ve seen how that worked out. Because it doesn’t make a damn bit of sense to me otherwise to make accusation of the worst sort at the very people risking their lives to defend us and treat them as if they were Himmler and Mao.

    Sadly, I believe America well on its way to becoming just another in a list of failed powers, once great, soon to be decayed and irrelevant. Almost overnight – like the fall of the former USSR – the dominoes falling with us, perhaps first led by a financial collapse. Worse, we were warned by the very people who founded this country. They gave us a Republic and we couldn’t keep it.

    Once an empire falls, it never regains its majesty.

    The older I get, the more Paul’s message of principalities ring true – even a few demons calling themselves Christian, one on this board. Perhaps it had to be.

  217. Reagan inherited a federal budget of $599 billion in revenue, $678 billion in spending, and a deficit of $79 billion. He left office with a federal budget of $909 billion in revenue, a little less than $1.1 trillion in spending, and a deficit of $155 billion. Interesting Note: The current budget being approved by Congress is for 1.1 Trillion.

    No slam. I’ll be glad to explain it. Financially, Reagan’s “economy” also oversaw the creation of $17 trillion of new net worth over eight years. Can you imagine the size of our economy today if Barack Obama had been able to do that proportionally, Raji, with the debt we have incurred under Obama’s failed leadership? I would be far less concerned with a now $18 trillion dollar deficit if America’s GDP were about $30 trillion instead of $17 trillion.

    Debt in and of itself is not the problem, Raji. Corporations incur debt all the time to finance capital. Debt without growth is a problem. Debt with stagnant wages is a problem. Debt with declining work force participation rates is a problem. Debt with more in poverty is the problem. See the trend?

    But Reagan was more than to me. He was a patriot. He was a leader. He was respected and feared. Being you and I were alive at that time, try to remember back to the malaise of Jimmy Carter. How weakened America had become after Vietnam, Watergate, SDS.

    Anybody that would deny upon Reagan’s exit that we were once again head and shoulders above the rest of the world doesn’t understand history and is lying to themselves; or simple stupid.

  218. Almighty America or Mystery Babylon? I’m just calling it like I see it. Your little snippet at 2:14 reminded me of Matthew chapter 12 that I had just read a couple days ago and that made me chuckle. Mr ‘back in my church days’ indeed. 😆

  219. Hey Rutherford? Have you been following all the University Presidents now receiving backlash for their political correctness – not politically correct enough? Like the President of Smith College who was lambasted by your Leftist ilk for sending out a memorandum all lives matter, co opting black lives matter? She’s groveling now.

    Or the UVA President trying to remove the stiletto from her beefy ass for assuming the rape allegations must be true and punishing the entire Greek System at UVA – sororities included, just as the allegation falling apart? LOL

    Like a friend of mine once said, “Isn’t it charming when leftists devour each other over the issue of which is a more worthy victim?” 😈

    That is your one saving grace with me, “R”, besides you tolerating my lampooning your failed ideology without threat. You’re a lot of things – but generally victim is not one of them. You get brownie points in my book for that.

    Maybe there’s still hope for you yet.

  220. “Ahhh I can only think back to the days when you were all so eager to welcome McCain and his half-wit partner into the White House and NOW suddenly McCain is a wack job who needs to be put out to pasture.

    Priceless!”

    Let’s be reasonable about the choices in 2008. While we’re at it let’s be clear about the degree to which they’ve let us down since then.

    If you’re still feeling superior than you’re delusional.

  221. Perfect, Muffy.

    Let’s be reasonable about the choices in 2008. While we’re at it let’s be clear about the degree to which they’ve let us down since then. If you’re still feeling superior than you’re delusional.

    Raji also thought Rutherford quite clever. And though I didn’t respond to her trying uncomfortably not to be an asshole in return, Raji apparently didn’t pick up on my retort, what choices were we actually given in 2008. A fraud and a brick?

    And I would add in 2012, America was given a clear line of demarcation. And America still chose wrong.

    So as Hillary once said, “What does it matter?”

  222. Poolman,

    I could remind you that Lucifer knows scripture better than you and bore the rest of the room in argument.

    I admit to not fully understanding your mindset in masquerading as something you clearly are not, which I assume is matter of great pride in you as you’ve bragged about being a mosquito in my presence – a vector of disease which causes more death world wide than any known parasite. I find your own self-description fitting while you continue to pollute the world with your very existence.

    There’s a lot of blue collar folk, not professionally educated mind you which is overrated, with something I treasure called wisdom and skill; some of my favorite people. People I consider wise and talented who can teach me something, people who put on no airs. Unfortunately, you are not one of them. If your aspiration is to be something else – like wise or respected – you’re too late. Your reputation has preceded you and you’ve become the unquestioned fly on the Rutherford Lawson picnic hamburger.

    If your greatest aspiration in life is to be admired as pest, nuisance, and/or petulant troll with one too many lumps on his block head, then let me be the first to congratulate you on your success. You are.

    But what amuses me most is you’re apparently unaware of the fact you’re like the insufferable Fat Grannies, personified. You must be a real burden at those Poolman reunions of yore.

  223. One reason Reagan presided over a spending increase was our needing to strengthen our military forces after a post Vietnam decline. Our spending Soviets under the table also was a benefit.

  224. But I do find it humorous that rail against the idiot Palin while your party is made up of legions of Cummings, Bidens, Hank Johnsons etc., etc., etc., etc., et.c, etc.,

    If we put aside your etcetera, clearly one of these things is not like the other. Hank “sinking island” Johnson is in a class by himself.

    I’ve never seen Cummings say anything all that outlandish or dumb. As for Biden, he says stupid shit but his foreign policy chops are supposedly pretty good. He gets overruled by Obama and his closest advisors whose FP chops suck.

    Example: Biden favors a sectioning of Iraq that matches its cultural make-up. I think this makes sense. Iraq was artificially created by the West who didn’t know shit about the culture.

  225. $18 trillion dollar deficit. … Debt without growth is a problem.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but you’re using debt and deficit interchangeably. The total debt is 18 trillion.

    Again correct me if I’m wrong but our deficits have been DECREASING over the past few years and our recent GDP growth is the best it’s been in years. I don’t have the numbers at my fingertips.

    The terrible oddity of this “recovery” is the wealth gap. All of the economy’s health improvement has benefitted the rich leaving the average man in the dust.

  226. Tex as I told G, the Smith students were assholes. It can be quite fun to watch academics intellectualize themselves into a corner.

    As for my not being a victim, didn’t I tell you I was raped by someone who felt black lives don’t matter? 😆

  227. “I think this makes sense.”

    And who is going to draw those new lines? And who is going to defend these new countries from their new and old neighbors? And who is going to support the Sunni state after it loses all of its oil fields to the Kurds and Shi’ites? FP guru Uncle Joe didn’t lay any of that out, did he?

    What happened post-WWI was a mistake. We won’t correct it by making another.

  228. I apologize, “R”. I interchange accounting, economic and financial terms interchangeably. Old habits die hard. Yes, debt was the term I should have used throughout and hopefully Raji understood that. And yes, the deficit has been reduced from its highest levels this year. And the only reason is that our government continues to take in record tax “revenue” – spending is still at record levels, and one in five families still in poverty. Democratic Orwellian speech. It’s 2000 and 2007 all over again.

    As to the claims of Obama’s dynamite recovery. Not quite – work force participation rates continue to decline, wages continue to decrease, hours continue to be cut, and finally I give you this summary from a group that apparently after six years of being burned by Obama, has finally decided to spill the beans about these dynamic job reports – too little, too late. I would have provided it from FOX, but I didn’t want to give you excuse. 🙂

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/102243878#.

  229. Huck, Rutherford apparently has some things forgotten many things concerning Joe Biden’s FP chop expertise (cough cough). You provided me supporting documentation. I will return the favor supporting your valid point.

  230. People who violate these agreements are, in fact, war criminals – no matter who they are – and not to put too fine a point on it, but that includes your former president. And any country who hopes to lead the world must face up to – and confess – such criminality, and vow to never do it again. This report is a good start.

    Your ACLU has suggested that President Obama issue official Presidential pardons to those involved, to emphasize that what they did is in fact illegal. And no amount of, “Do what you have to do to protect us,” makes it right or acceptable. That is, of course, what all the despots throughout history have said, isn’t it?

    Hey Blowhard and Asshole? I heard a startling statistic tonight. Seems Barack Obama’s drone program has not only killed many terrorists without a trial, but in the process has killed hundreds, possibly thousands of ordinary Pakistani civilians including an estimate 168-200+ children as a bonus.

    I assume that waterboarding a handful of head loppers, the architect of 9/11, and a few other assorted POS who like to kill Americans is far more egregious than the lives of wasting about a 1,000 Pakistani civilians, courtesy of your beloved Barack Obama’s drone program – a program I also support, by the way?

    When are you and your self-righteous brothers, the sanctimonious ACLU, going to jump right on this and drag Barack Obama and the Democratic Congress straight to the Hague for war crimes?

  231. While I understand sympathizers with the ACLU’s idea, I think it’s a bad one. Obama became POTUS in 2009 as folks sang “Na Na Hey Hey” to the outgoing Bush. An embarrassment. Now we’re suggesting that as Obama leaves office he pardon Bush, Cheney and others? It would make Obama one of the most hated Prez ever. It would look petty.

    If Obama was gonna take folks to task, he needed to do it back in 2009 and then live with his decision.

  232. I’ll need to look at the Geneva Protocols and Conventions, but I’m not so sure al Qaeda members count as “non-combatants”, and perhaps not even “prisoners of war”.

    That’s not to say I am completely down with what went on. Nor am I saying I condemn it all, outright. I am greatly conflicted with some of it.

    But those feelings are a moral dilemma and not based on a 50+ year set of rules that perhaps need to be updated if we are going to continue to cite them in this type of discussion.

  233. Nope not an enema.

    They put together what Rabbit would call a stinkbeard gourmet meal, they purée it and then they feed it to you up your ass. From my wife’s research, there is some minimal nutrient absorption gained that way.

    Tex my friend, if you believe the Dem report, we did some really nasty shit and water boarding was the least of it. Abu Graib was not a one-off. Makes it hard to be proud to be an American.

  234. The interrogation report was a political document designed for revenge against mostly Republicans Democrat Bob Kerry included in his criticism the fact that the report offered no suggestions for improvement. Most do.

    I believe the Geneva Convention allows for armed militias without uniforms if they display their arms and have identifying marks to show they are combatants. They also must follow the rules of war. Terrorists usually hide their identities and intentions. I also don’t think the US signed that part of the agreement.

    Water boarding is part of the training for some of our troops. The modern variety is not what the Japanese did in WW11. Someone suggested that if criminals were given the choice of serving their complete sentences or gaining freedom after water boarding, they would choose the water board,

    “We did some nasty shit.” Of course we did. This is war. Our enemies have done worse to us. Why is no one complaining about the hundreds of drone attacks which Bush started and Obama expanded? They kill combatants without imprisoning them for possible information they might give. Drones also kill civilians, many of whom might be innocent.

    I am still proud to be an American. This is not the NBA playoff or the World Series.

  235. Tex, I don’t have to try to remember back to the malaise of Jimmy Carter. What is hard is to try not to remember. Reagan was a godsend after that. Yes, he did return respect to America.

    I do understand the difference between debt and deficit. Can you expound a bit more on the “creation of 17 trillion of new net worth”?

  236. I did think Rutherford was quite clever in his come back and deserved a Kudos. Muffy’s comeback was also worthy of a Kudos. I know it was hard, Tex and I thank you for the effort you had to put forth to not be an asshole 🙂

  237. “Tex my friend, if you believe the Dem report, we did some really nasty shit and water boarding was the least of it. Abu Graib was not a one-off.” R

    R, I agree with James. We did do some nasty shit. Nasty shit is done by almost every country and we are right up there with the best of them. We just got caught with our pants down. One is just being a Pollyanna if they think otherwise.

  238. James, I for one condemn our drone program. When we start defining “war crimes” we get into some murky territory.

    If you think about it, war is criminal, so war crime is redundant.

  239. R, I agree with James. We did do some nasty shit. Nasty shit is done by almost every country and we are right up there with the best of them. We just got caught with our pants down. One is just being a Pollyanna if they think otherwise.

    Then the problem Raji is what makes us special? What’s the point of being “an American” if we default to the lowest common denominator?

  240. “James could you elaborate? What do we do different from the Japanese?”

    Damn it. We had a lengthy exchange on this and I sent you links. All of it forgotten. . .

  241. “If you think about it, war is criminal, so war crime is redundant.”

    War is criminal? WTF does that mean?

    In fact, weren’t the worked-up advocate of bombing strikes and scorched earth towards ISIS? Criminal?

  242. Yes I advocated scorched earth on ISIL. Doesn’t mean it’s not criminal.

    War is about murder and destruction. It is by definition criminal. It is absurd that we talk about “rules of war” like its a fucking football game.

  243. “How long ago was this “lengthy discussion”?”

    Quite some time ago. However, the imagery should’ve stuck. It was grotesque and you, as always, haughtily dismissed it as distinctions without difference.

    As for the differences, do we really need to Google for you, again? I think that since the media pull is not so strong right now, you might actually climb down and think more about the comparisons.

  244. “It is by definition criminal.”

    crime:

    noun

    an action or omission that constitutes an offense that may be prosecuted by the state and is punishable by law.
    “shoplifting was a serious crime”

    synonyms: offense, unlawful act, illegal act, felony, misdemeanor, misdeed, wrong; informalno-no
    “kidnapping is a very serious crime”

    •illegal activities.
    “the victims of crime”

    synonyms: lawbreaking, delinquency, wrongdoing, criminality, misconduct, illegality, villainy; More
    informalcrookedness;

    malfeasance

    “the increase in crime”

    •an action or activity that, although not illegal, is considered to be evil, shameful, or wrong.

  245. I know it was hard, Tex and I thank you for the effort you had to put forth to not be an asshole 🙂

    You’re welcome. Now perhaps you can return the favor in becoming something other than the smarmy bitch once in a while. 😉

    What is there to expound upon? The accumulated aggregate wealth of American increased $17 trillion dollars during Reagan’s Presidency – far more in today’s dollars. It was the start of the longest growth period in U.S. history 1981-2007. Bill Clinton, Democratic Patron Saint and Presidential Serial Rapist, adopted it as plan. Reagan came within 3,000 votes of sweeping every state in this nation he was so beloved.

    You want the statistics. They’re readily available. Google them…

  246. “I’ll google it my damn self.”

    So sorry to put you out. 😆

    Thought you might want to know what the fuck you’re talking about.

    Just Kidding. 😆

    You sure can be one intellectually lazy bastard.

  247. Rectal feeding, medically unnecessary water enemas, sleep depravation, being chained in a upright position on an injured limb, sexual humiliation, being told your mother would be captured and raped.

    I’m sure I’m forgetting something. I already know your retort: 3000 dead Americans.

    So really the entire discussion boils down to does the ends justify the means?

  248. The accumulated aggregate wealth of American increased $17 trillion dollars during Reagan’s Presidency –

    Tex serious question. How much of that accumulated wealth went to the richest 1% of the country?

  249. Then why would you ever support a war?

    In general, I don’t support any war but I’m human and I have some degree of bloodlust and desire for revenge. Nothing to be proud of.

  250. You know, Rutherford. One of the biggest problems you have is the measure of scope and the uncanny inability to recognize real evil. In fact, I unfortunately find you perhaps one of the stupidest people I have ever read – like on par with Fat Grannies and Poolman level stupid – concerning this particular subject. I could in some ways say you were as sick as some of these head lopping puppies. And I mean that. Sincerely mean that.

    And there’s never a standard you can’t double.

    Tigre we did more than water boarding. We did sadistic stuff. We are very lucky that the international community doesn’t have the balls to prosecute us.

    Am I supposed to have sympathies for men who cut children’s heads off or cut children in half? Who gang rape old women, who use animals as suicide bombers, who indiscriminately kill people on a whim, who terrorize entire states? Do you know 200,000+ men, women, children lay dead in Syria alone on account of simply being pawns for people you want us to sympathize?

    Who in the international community is worthy to prosecute us? The U.N.. – the corrupt organization we pay 22% of their budget? The same U.N. whose workers raped women in The Congo, were accomplices with Saddam Hussein in pocketing billions while looting food intended for children? Europe? Feckless Europe? Holocaust Europe? Putin? China?

    I dare the international community to prosecute us for our inhumanity. It would be quite a spectacle to throw their own sins back in their face as reminder, while our guys bleed on the field to keep these sick fucks alive and out of harm’s way at the hands of the very demons you wish to defend.

  251. You sure can be one intellectually lazy bastard.

    ROTFLMAO This is true. Goddam did my parents waste their money on that Harvard degree. Seriously, it boggles my mind how I wasted those four years and didn’t take advantage of all those resources.

    I coulda been a contenda!

  252. Tex serious question. How much of that accumulated wealth went to the richest 1% of the country?

    Don’t know, off hand. But I’ll bet it’s far better than Barack Hussein Obama’s record? You know how I know without even looking? 49 of 50 states in a reelection.

  253. I dare the international community to prosecute us for our inhumanity. It would be quite a spectacle to throw their own sins back in their face as reminder, while our guys bleed on the field to keep these sick fucks alive and out of harm’s way at the hands of the very demons you wish to defend.

    Don’t get me wrong. With the possible exception of Canada there is no one of moral stature who can lecture us with a straight face.

    But your bigger point which speaks to the “balls” I referred to is that financially we own most of these people. They don’t dare prosecute us.

    Btw I don’t “defend demons”. You’re somewhere between 52 and 54 right? Do I really have to remind you it’s not about them? It’s about us and our standards.

    We like to forget Hitler didn’t arise from a vacuum. He was what a beaten humiliated Germany NEEDED at the time. If you want to, Tex, you can historically justify just about anything.

  254. “In general, I don’t support any war but I’m human and I have some degree of bloodlust and desire for revenge. Nothing to be proud of.”

    So the ends NEVER justify the means?

  255. That would not be my retort. It would be, “that’s sadistic?”

    I would call it coercive, not evil or sadistic. I would also call nothing close to “the lowest common denominator.”

    Did you see that the last decapitation came with a $1 million ransom for return of the decapitated body to his family?

  256. Correction: Foley’s decapitated body (one of the first photojournalists decapitated).

    http://nypost.com/2014/12/11/isis-wants-1m-for-james-foleys-headless-body/

    R, you can’t have a real conversation without some discussion of magnitude/scope in relation to the situation. You’re just stroking yourself otherwise.

    I don’t punch people in the face unless they deserve it, like to protect my children. Of course, punching people in the face is criminal by your definition.

    I really don’t get why the liberal mind is so gratified with their self-determined evaluations of their compassion and there fellow’s evil without proportion or objective. It’s all a damn “mean people suck” mentality. Self-loathing = enlightened.

  257. Lost me on the “oxymoron” comment. For my edification, and my edification only, what is the oxymoron? I don’t see it.

  258. Btw I don’t “defend demons”. You’re somewhere between 52 and 54 right? Do I really have to remind you it’s not about them? It’s about us and our standards.

    Yes, it is about us.

    Rutherford, I’m sure your intentions good on the road to hell. That’s something else you personally struggle with, Rutherford. Justice and the concept of it – it’s a common malady of faux sympathy for the perpetrator, the victims ignored. It gives you the feeling of moral superiority. It’s so easy for you and the insufferable Parker Pfesser to be self-righteous when you’re not personally affected by the travesty. Poolman is a different case but for the same reasons – a modern day, albeit brainless Pharisee – well actually in Poolman’s case, the Pharisee’s village idiot and court jester.

    But here is what I have found about you wonderfully forgiving, pious people. The minute some tragedy affects you, or it’s your property taken, or your monies taxed and you begin to foot a larger portion of the bill than others, or it’s your loved ones murdered in cold blood, our it’s your privacy rights invaded, the loudest wailing and gnashing of teeth ensues and cries for justice come out.

    Of all the qualities of the Left that makes me retch the most, it’s the utter pretentious and hypocrisy of its members.

  259. “Tex serious question. How much of that accumulated wealth went to the richest 1% of the country?”-R

    If I may chime in Rutherford, I’m sure a lot went to the richest 1% of the country but the trickle down effect benefited the other 99% of the working population. Under Obama most of any accumulated wealth has certainly benefited the richest 1% of the country and the poorest 25% of the country who are on welfare.

  260. I have seen nothing redeeming in Obama’s economy.

    When you get to that point, then you will have finally concluded the real truth. Without doubt, the most unedifying bastard that ever served in the White House.

    I am going to enjoy serenading Obama’s sorry ass out of the White House upon departure, just as the Left did George Bush. But unlike Bush, Barack Obama will enjoy no resurrection of his reputation. Obama will be summarily scorned by the demonic Democrats, used as prop by the Right.

    And the reason is, Obama lacks a Bush virtue. Class.

  261. oxymoron:
    a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction

    Using the term Reagan’s economy in the same sentence as Obama’s economy I consider an oxymoron. I am going to assume you are not defending Obama’s economic plans none of which have born any fruit IMO.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/economy/

  262. I’ll defer to el Tigre’s links, Rutherford since I don’t have much time now.

    US water boarding is done with a prisoner on an inclined plane. The prisoner is tied down, with a cloth on the face. Water drips down until the prisoner has the sensation of drowning. The process ends to let the prisoner breathe. Then, it begins again. The total process may last up to twenty minutes.

    The Japanese version was more violent with the prisoner becoming unconscious. An interogator sat on the prisoner’s stomach to force water out and to bring the prisoner back to consciousness. The process repeated.

    This is just from memory, so I probably missed many details. Water boarding or water torture dates back to the Inquisition. We used it in the Philipines during the Spanish -American War.

    As you know, I was briefly tortured, and unintentionally tortured by a dental officer who tried for almost five hours to remove a half inch root tip from my lingual space. Anesthesia wore off at two hours, and it took a direct order from our commander for the dentist to stop and get me numb again. I spent two days in the hospital.

    This was done from panic, not malice because my root tip was in a possibly fatal position. Another similar adventure with the root tip happened in England two years later. A dental student at the university where I earned my MA told me the root tip would probably kill me within ten years. I am still here, and the root tip is checked every year.

    After we were hit by a train, the part of my jaw ached and throbbed for almost a month. It still does once in a while.

    My opinion based on my experience is that water boarding is psychological more than physical punishment. My experience made me an officially slightly disabled veteran. US style water boarding usually produces no long-term physical effects.

    If dentists were intentionally torturing me, I might have sold out my own parents. It was rough, but I didn’t yell or scream. I took it like a man.

  263. No, Rutherford, Hitler didn’t rise from a vacume. Neither did Japan. Do you remember when I quoted a black blogger combined with my own reasoning to describe why the white race rules the world? Japan noticed generations ago, and the country copied our methods and changed itself into a quasi western nation. They felt they were being unfairly constrained by the white club of leading nations.

  264. War is about murder and destruction. It is by definition criminal. It is absurd that we talk about “rules of war” like its a fucking football game.

    In the words of Carl Von Clausewitz: war is a “continuation of politics by other means”.

    Military necessity, along with distinction, and proportionality, are three important principles of international humanitarian law governing the legal use of force in an armed conflict.

    Military necessity is governed by several constraints: an attack or action must be intended to help in the military defeat of the enemy; it must be an attack on a military objective, and the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

    Distinction is a principle under international humanitarian law governing the legal use of force in an armed conflict, whereby belligerents must distinguish between combatants and civilians.

    Proportionality is a principle under international humanitarian law governing the legal use of force in an armed conflict, whereby belligerents must make sure that the harm caused to civilians or civilian property is not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated by an attack on a military objective.

    War is not criminal, and it is certainly not about murder.

    Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. There are two significant things you have to understand, and one is likely not going to jive in your liberal brain.

    1. War is legal, but it is legally constrained, as explained above.
    2. Soldiers aren’t people, they’re combatants.

    I know you have a hard time with #2, but that’s just the fact of the matter. Combatants are elements of force for the state. They are tools, resources, etc, and as sterile as that sounds, it is an important concept to understand conflict. When a combatant is detained, they become “people” in the sense that there are guidelines for how they can be treated. This is where the Geneva Conventions come in.

    I have conflicted views on all of this. Do I think what the CIA did was torture? No. Do I think it was entirely necessary? No. Do I think that humiliating these rat fucks was fun? Probably, but that doesn’t make it right. Am I going to weep because a rat fuck was A) medicinally fed through his rectum by B) trained medical personnel in C) a sanitize medical environment? No. I think it would have been one thing if they were starving themselves, fine, throat or ass, we’re putting the food in you, but I think there are more effective means of interrogation.

    An argument can be made that none of this was torture, but I’m not sure much of it was necessary. The fact that Bush was unaware, and that WH and CIA leaders were preventing his briefing on the tactics, while intended to protect the Administration, was very, very wrong. If you have to “protect” the Administration from something, then you should not be doing it.

    I’m sure the Dems are happy now though, at least Gruber is off the news (like he ever was in the first place…).

  265. So the ends NEVER justify the means?

    That’s oddly put. As a blanket statement “the ends justify the means” is invalid as it opens the door to any means.

    Certain ends justify certain means and it’s always a judgment call.

  266. The fact that Bush was unaware, and that WH and CIA leaders were preventing his briefing on the tactics, while intended to protect the Administration, was very, very wrong. If you have to “protect” the Administration from something, then you should not be doing it.

    It may be very, very wrong. But apparently it’s the standard practice that has been adopted by all of the Democratic Party when it comes to Barack Hussein Obama, who learns all of his intelligence while taking a dump on the toilet, reading the sport’s page. That’s what we’ve been led to believe, isn’t it? Saint Benevolent Barack is out of the fray? Wasn’t consulted? Never heard about it?

    Where’s the outrage of every conceivable scandal since Jan 2009 by these phony bastards if secrecy is heresy? If these people have a problem with the way George Bush conducted wars and interrogation, then they out to be screaming from the roof tops about this drone program.

    And what’s the reaction by the liars when the questions laid bare about Barack’s tactics?

    Silence, obfuscation, deflection, squirrel.

    I’m beyond reviling these pieces of shit. This whole cesspool pack is beyond repugnant and dishonest. Their parody to be mocked, their gross incompetence to be laugh out loudly.

  267. Tex, the state should not embody the basest instincts of the populace. Of course I would not be on my high horse if my relative died in the Twin Towers but should my government reflect my raw emotion or should it apply standards and rein me in?

    It’s limbo baby and the question on the table is how low do you go? The argument made most recently by Tigre is we are not even near the bottom of depravity. Is it a slippery slope? Should we capture an Iraqi or two and lop their heads off in the public square? If not, why not?

  268. Although job participation has dropped we have had consecutive months of job growth.

    IN low wage, part-time, and/or seasonal jobs? Whoopee! Rutherford, you do realize America is not listening to the horseshit anymore? Barack Obama’s recovery is non existent. It isn’t there. If it was, 76% of this country wouldn’t be calling America on the wrong track. People don’t generally understand macroeconomics. They do understand their own checkbook and that in large part serves as their opinion of where things stand. People are no better off now than they were in Jan 2009 and the middle class is still shrinking. The fear has been alleviated and people have a tendency to adjust. But there’s less of the population working now, or the typical wages have either stagnated or dropped for going on six years now. That’s not a recovery – that’s a facade.

    Obama has enriched us guys with a 401k. So what? I still know he’s grossly incompetent and the seat could have sat empty for six years and the situation would be no different. America is bigger than government. People adapt.

    <

    blockquote>For 2nd and 3rd quarter we had nearly 4% GDP growth.

    <

    blockquote>

    Didn’t read my article, did you? Didn’t think so. You might want to wait six months – when the trend line smoothed. You’re going to be in for a rude awakening.

  269. Tex, the state should not embody the basest instincts of the populace.

    Strange. Because I always thought the state served the populace, supposedly representative of its constituency? Are you trying to tell me that Barack Obama and Co. are more moral than I am? A better representative of clearing thinking? And I’m supposed to believe that with the historical precedent at hand?

    If so, then why is it you haven’t been loudly complaining when one of Obama’s drones fry small children? Or maybe that doesn’t fit the narrative of our better angels?

  270. Morality and war kind of the ultimate oxymoron kind of thing. Plenty of countries can hold their noses to our immorality compared to theirs. Doesn’t really mean a thing though

  271. “Certain ends justify certain means and it’s always a judgment call.”

    See? You’ve completed the circle, Grasshopper.

    All war is therefore not criminal.

  272. I was contemplating last night watching the talking heads discussing the two terms of Barack Obama.

    Has there ever been a man or woman that in such a short time span has more fallen out of global favor when considering the level of adoration and false hope in 2008, almost messianic six years? An example that could now be viewed as such a pariah, disgrace, profound disappointment, and/or butt of joke as Barack Obama? People actually thought Barack Obama was going to change the world – cult status. That he would facilitate peace and prosperity.

    The last remaining defenses when questioning this President’s competency and acumen are relegated to fringe Leftists and Hollywood trying to discover worse examples of performance, dishonesty, lack of transparency, and behavior. That can only best be described as a sociopathic defense at best.

    Even I, who predicted failure long before he elected President, never dreamed I would see a day with Barack Obama as sitting President and once proclaimed ArchAngel, now mentioned in the same breadth as Nixon and tinpan despots. Not just on FOX News – but in restaurant conversations, across every blog and board. Even places like Slate. I know many a Leftist like Rutherford that simply try to avoid the subject altogether – whether because of grief or embarrassment.

    Frankly, I’ll be glad when Barack Obama is gone for the sole reason I need a new villain. This man and his pitiful cabinet of buffoons are simply too pathetic and inept anymore to dogpile much further.

  273. Yes Tigre you’re being too literal. Usually something like honest politician would be called an oxymoron. IMHO Raji stretched the meaning of the word slightly. A better example of oxymoron might be “Reaganesque Obama”.

  274. Tex, regarding your latest comment, the public and the media were largely to blame for Obama’s ascension to God. Not Obama.

    Please remember the last black man to be taken even slightly seriously as a POTUS candidate was Jesse Jackson who sounds like he has marbles in his mouth. Joe Biden’s implicitly racist comment was a bullseye. Here was a “clean, articulate” black man who wanted to be President. He was every liberals wet dream.

  275. If you aren’t willing to do anything, I mean anything to win, you ought not go to war. In life and death matters, the ends do justify the means. Anything less ultimately kills more people and ruins more lives.

    We were told GI meant Government Issue. We were resources to fill slots as fighter jets, dentists and fried chicken were.

  276. the public and the media were largely to blame for Obama’s ascension to God. Not Obama.

    I remember one Rutherford Lawson who was quite taken with a particular demagogue too. I remember so much so, that he was nice enough to forewarn us the Republican Party going the way of the Whigs shortly after victory.

    Now that you’ve returned to a more Leftist sense of normalcy, not as insufferably arrogant and foolish, I think you are half right. There’s no doubt America’s corrupt media sold the bill about how special Obama was – tingling in the legs, fainting, chanting ‘We are the Ones.’ I hope if nothing else, you more sensible Leftists have seen just how easily swayed millions of dupes can become, caught up in the party. It is not the Republican Party made up of majority weak, gullible, stupid people, Rutherford. It is your party.


    But are you seriously going to tell me that Obama isn’t a testament to narcissist? That Obama didn’t play the part? Standing in front of Greek Styrofoam columns, telling his staff he was better at their jobs than they were, comments like, ‘Yeah, but you’ve got me”, “I’m Lebron. I got game.” ❓

    And perhaps the most insidious speech of them all? This is when I was sure Obama was doomed to failure, by the way. And I told you as much, that this haughty man would be brought low.

    Because if we are willing to work for it, and fight for it, and believe in it, then I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal; this was the moment when we ended a war and secured our nation and restored our image as the last, best hope on earth.

    You can honestly tell me this feckless man didn’t have delusions of grandeur, Rutherford?

  277. “Reaganesque Obama”

    This better be some Magic Eye kinda thing.

    I. . . must. . . under. . . stand. . . can’t. . . breathe. . .

    Economies and budget/debt are not the same thing if the idea is that the Obama and Reagan were parallel and I set them apart.

    Or maybe, it’s something like the SNL skit where the supervisor at the nuclear plant leaves the underlying in charge with one specific instruction: “remember, you can’t put too much water in the nuclear reactor.” The meaning of that instruction is then debated until meltdown.

    Arrrrgh.

  278. The oceans slowing was a reference to global warming, which you don’t believe in. It was never, as portrayed, a suggestion by Obama that he was a force of nature.

    Minus the oceans bit, the very same quote could have been said by Reagan and you would have swooned.

  279. Minus the oceans bit, the very same quote could have been said by Reagan and you would have swooned.

    Oh, an inspiring speech to be sure. Beautifully written and beautifully read – off the teleprompter.

    There is one difference between you and me, though. I would have held my Barack Obama to those standards promised. You have not.

    In fact, until very recently just as you did here with the Global Warming gig, you have done everything in your power to cover and excuse Barack Obama’s many failures, ignored the broken campaign promises, and often referred as your best defense of Obama as the “mediocre” President – especially and leading up to the 2012 election. Worse, you demonized Barack Obama’s opponent with nothing but rank propaganda without having any idea of its legitimacy or truthfulness, much of which we now know for a fact was not true. Don’t tell me you didn’t. You were no different than the worst of hacks at MSNBC.

    And the sad part is, no matter what you say or what you do, I am completely convinced no matter how severe the consequences or how grand the claims, you would do exactly the same thing again.

  280. Economies and budget/debt are not the same thing if the idea is that the Obama and Reagan were parallel and I set them apart.

    What you talkin bout Willis? Now you’re confusing me.

    You’re thinking too much. If Reagan and Obama were polar opposites in handling anything, economy, whatever, then to describe Obama as Reaganesque would be an oxymoron.

    Contradiction in terms. Simple. Sober Rush Limbaugh. Why? Cos dude is on OxyContin. Another example: genius Sarah Palin. Why? Because Palin is a moron.

    See how I worked “oxy” and “moron” into my examples? Clever, ain’t i?

  281. “Raji isn’t that hyperbole? We did avoid a Great Depression.”

    Who is this “We”? Some are under the impression that we are still in a Great Depression? Not to be too personal Rutherford but how do you feel about your current status? You and others in your position can not feel you have benefited under Obama’s economy. If you had looked at my link you will notice it was all about what Obama wants to achieve for the middle class. Has he accomplished anything for the middle class?

    The hyperbole is the statement “We did avoid a Great Depression”

    Yeah, I am a “trickle down” believer. Are you seriously a Keynesian? Trickle-up poverty, that’s funny 😆

    Tigre, you were being literal and I was being a bit facetious.

  282. Very good, Rutherford. We are about to leave for home within the hour. Our grand daughter’s new favorite song it the Fearless song I posted earlier. She dances to it.

    Obama is the anti-Reagan if they are polar opposites.

    Now, that I have ended your confusion, you owe me a Christmas gift.

  283. Raji, I’m not economically literate enough to label myself a Keynesian or anything else.

    This is my observation. Globalization and greed have combined to screw over the American worker. The bottom line can’t be big enough for the average corporation and they would disembowel their own mother if it meant adding a few pennies to net income.

    I was unfair to Bush. This is no more “Obama’s economy” than it was “Bush’s economy”. This is the new economy – the new normal where stock price means everything, where the SOURCE of profits (layoffs, off shore accounts) means nothing, where earning profits by selling good stuff is secondary, where employing Americans and paying them enough to buy your own products is a thing of the past.

    The new business culture is at the heart of the economy’s sickness. No President will fix it until businesses return to the values that once created a great middle class.

    The only trickle down is a successful company paying Americans a living wage with some measure of job security. The rest is bullshit.

  284. And to answer your personal question, neither Bush nor Obama screwed me over. In the case of both me AND my wife, IBM screwed us over. They are the poster child for the business culture change I described in my last comment. For all the lives they displace on a quarterly basis, I hope they rot in hell.

  285. Here’s your Christmas gift James. Probably my fav holiday song but also one of the best performance videos ever, from the smiling violinist to the children’s choir to the bald drummer. I never get sick of this one.

  286. While nothing will ever replace Silent Night….this is my one my favorites by a local folk singer. Dude is actually successful despite being an unapologetic Christian (although probably a big flaming lib). Those Dutch Reformed on the Western side of the state are a strange lot.

    I was told today I might have cancer in my mouth from dipping, fellas. At least I have pre-cancer. Need a follow up. Nobody’s fault but my own. I remember my first dip at 11 years old. The euphoria of it as it hit my system, leaning on a tree at Garden City Park, watching the cars go down Cherry Hill road, the demarcation of black and white. At the age of 11, I knew it caused cancer and new it was dangerous.

  287. Hoping the cancer is a false alarm Rabbit. No matter how stupid the habit, no one deserves cancer. Do you have a good teaching hospital near you? I hear they give some of the best all around care, although I’d imagine Tex has a more informed opinion on that.

    Hang in there.

  288. I had precancerous lesions in my mouth from dipping Skoal for 20 years, Brother Rabbit.

    Switched to Nicorette Gum back in ’96, and never looked back. Still chewing that stuff. LOL Got one in my mouth right now.

    I always laughed when people thought me yuppie because I wore nice suits at work. The entire time in front of exec. management, I had a dip of Skoal between cheek and gum. 😈

    Push comes to shove, I’m as red around the neck as it gets.

  289. Rutherford, as I sit here on my ass and type, I made a special trip to the computer and kicked Mick from out underneath his mancave – just so I could tell you at this minute how much I”m laughing and pointing fingers at the entire Democratic Party on the verge of shutting down the gov’t. LOL The irony!!!!!

    Nancy Pelosi is not only stupid, she’s crazy. Seems San Fran bent on shutting down the gov’t tonight after helping craft the agreement. ** GUFFAW **

    How do you say it? ROFLMAO And you really think Sarah Palin is the dumbest broad in politic? 😀

    Man, I know you secretly want to shove that oversized gavel up Nancy Pelosi’s colon this minute. Man, if I were you, I’d be seething over what these morons have done to Benevolent Barack the last few years.

    I mean Barack is a snake. But he’s surrounded by toads.

  290. Come to think of it, Rabbit, I had a pre-cancerous wart on my waist several years ago. Had the thing removed when it started oozing and when they tested it, it was benign. But I was told to keep an eye on anything freaky going on with my skin.

  291. “I had precancerous lesions in my mouth from dipping Skoal for 20 years, Brother Rabbit.”

    Nicorette gum….here I come.

  292. “Then the problem Raji is what makes us special?”

    We’re not special…remember?

    Rutherford, while you’re Googling….run a search on “Just War Theory”. I’m not being sarcastic. It’s probably what you are trying to say without realizing it.


    “We did avoid a Great Depression.”

    It cannot be proven that a Great Depression was inevitable, so, as such, it cannot be proven that we avoided one.


    “Tex, the state should not embody the basest instincts of the populace.”

    Let’s store this one away, folks, and drag it out when Rutherford start REALLY parroting Lizzy Warren, eat-the-rich, populist bullshit.

    Because envy is a pretty base human instinct. And let’s be honest–that’s really the big problem most anyone has with rich people.


    “This is the new economy”

    Capitalism and globalization have been going on for over 4 centuries. There’s nothing new about either.

    All you are seeing now is the continuation of a process that began hundreds of years ago. It’s what paid for the exploration that discovered North America. It’s what brought colonists to the New World. It’s what created the slave trade.

    The only reason there is a United States of America is because of capitalism and globalization. You can argue all you want about how fucked up it is, and you might have a point or two. But there’s nothing new about what you describe.

  293. I’m probably being a little dramatic as the dentist told me it should heal. But…I threw 3 logs of dip away today.

    I’m spooked something serious and dipping just isn’t an option anymore.

    I’m feel like a trusted friend is gone forever. No matter what the world threw at me, I could always pop a dip and roll the sleeves up.

    Now I have to chew drug store nicotine gum 😴😠😠

  294. “While HRC blathers, Liz is taking a populist stand and pulling a Ted Cruz to boot.”

    And are you going to condemn her for it like you did Cruz?

    Are you going to rail on about how Fauxcahantas and San Fran Nan are [I guess it’s “was” now] holding the country hostage? Arsonists ready to burn down the economy because they want[ed] to throw a tantrum over something?

  295. “Huck surely you would concede technology had made the world more interdependent than ever before.”

    Again, that is just a continuation of things. Sailing technology is what helped exploration. International telecommunications have been going on since the 1858 Trans-Atlantic telegraph cable.

    I argued this same thing in several graduate classes. It was not well-received and frustrated many professors. And while they never agreed I was right, they could never say I was wrong.

  296. “Just saw headline that house approved bill. Looks like Liz lost the first round.”

    And Obama got his ass saved.

    Can you imagine how impotent he would have appeared if, after declaring he would sign the bill, and after sending his Chief of Staff to lobby HIS OWN PARTY, he STILL couldn’t rally democrats to side with him?

  297. Rabbit, you can get 170 pieces of “mint” Equate gum which tastes better than Nicorette for $30.98 at Walmart, assuming there is one around. Buy four boxes a month. LOL I was supposed to get off it 17 years ago. Oops.

    Pre cancerous lesions are typical and common – but they are an indicator that you’re running out of time to quit. And I understand of all the cancers, oral cancer is the most disfiguring and worst. I finally looked at me kids one day when they were 7 & 6, added to the fact my wife would no longer kiss me and absolutely hated it (and I wasn’t even messy), and thought they all deserve better than that.

    What’s weird is I actually have dreams where I can’t get the chewing tobacco taste out of my mouth – and I’m doing everything in the dream to find a place to wash it out. Got to be Freudian there someplace.

  298. It still needs to pass the Senate, Tex.

    Hell, we might even see Cruz AND Warren teaming up to whip against this, because they both hate it for different reasons, while needing to go on record as hating it for the same reason.

  299. Thanks Rutherford. I’m going to keep that song. I was joking, but I’m glad I did for the video.

    Good luck, rabbit. You should be all right, but as Tex wrote, it is a warning. I

    Huck, you can go even further back to the technology which let central Europeans to settle in western China two to five thousand years ago.

    Watching Ted and Liz working in tandem would be fun. Stranger things have happened. That team could include Obama.

  300. “That team could include Obama.”

    Probably not after today. He’s on record as saying he would sign the bill and he was probably instrumental in rallying some of the House Dem support for it, if nothing else, by giving them cover.

    He’s committed now. He knows this is the best bill he’s going to get. Waiting means letting a GOP congress deal with it next year. That’s not an option for Obama. He’s beaten on this one, and he knows it.

  301. Usually CNN is the Clinton News Network, but out of boredom channel surfing, I watched the last part of an interesting program – CNN’s ‘Dinosaur 13. I’ll need to catch the first part to understand all of it.

    It’s about Sue, the T. Rex, the most complete T.Rex skeleton ever found – her discovery, the fed co opting Sue, the trial, and the auction. She’s displayed up in Chicago for you residents, who might know more than I do about her. Looked really cool on the stage display.

    The show goes through the legal ramifications of what transpired and how Sue ended up in Chicago. Worth watching.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-dinosaur-sue-film-met-20141211-story.html

  302. Yes, Huck, I think Obama knows he is beaten on this issue and he won’t get any more than this bill.It still would have been fun to watch the three of them on the same side. I hope he also admits defeat on another issue.

    The administration lied and obfuscated Nidal Hasan’s terrorist attack on our soldiers. the Defense Department showed little concern for families of the dead or of the more than two-dozen survivors. The House voted last week for an amendment to the National Defense Authorization act which would provide benefits associated with the Purple Heart for the victims of terrorism at Fort Hood and other parts of the US.

    An amateur paleontologist, named Sue found the bones in South Dakota in 1990. A legal custody battle ended when the court ruled that the T Rex belonged to the land owner. He auctioned the remains and the Chicago museum paid a record for the time eight million dollars for the remains.

    Sue apparently died at age 28 after something bit her head.

  303. Rutherford, I loved the Christmas song. Thanks for sharing.

    DR Hang in there. At least you got a warning. I feel your pain having just stopped smoking after 50 years 😦

  304. “The only trickle down is a successful company paying Americans a living wage with some measure of job security. The rest is bullshit.”-R

    All Righty! Then explain this scenario if you don’t believe in “tickle down”
    You and your spouse are IBM employees, probably making 6 figures together. You employ a cleaning service for your house., a landscape service for your yard, your cars get detailed every month or so, you frequent the local restaurant, and your cat gets yearly check-ups at the vet. You and your spouse lose your jobs and the first thing you do is eliminate the perks described above.

    You may not be an economic wizard, R, but don’t you see the trickle down concept now?

  305. Thanks again for posting that good video, Rutherford. I hope you like this one. The lyrics are from a poem by Dan Anderson, and it is Sofia Karlsson’s favorite song. She is joiking at the very end.

  306. Here is another if you don’t like the first. Eivor lives in the Faroe Islands, This video was supposed to be made into a movie.

    I agree with Ragi about trickle down.

  307. No wonder Leftists don’t understand the concept of supply-side economics. It takes them two minutes to understand the gist of a cartoon.

    Two questions, JAL? And I fully expect you to slither off with these questions I pose left unanswered as is your habit.

    Bill Clinton, former President and sometimes serial rapist, is known as the guru of the American economy by Democrats – remember yourself bragging about all those surpluses? Why did Clinton continue with the policy of supply-side economics for eight years if it was a failure? And why did America experience the longest period of sustained economic growth in our nation’s history between 1981-2007?

    Of course, that was the clarion call of Bill Clinton. “The Days of Big Government Are Over!” Guess Slick didn’t count on a charlatan being elected for President twice either.

  308. Three Wise Women

    Would have asked directions, arrived on time, helped delivered the baby, brought practical gifts, cleaned the stable, made a casserole and there would have been Peace on Earth. Just saying.

  309. Lurker, that video about the trickle down theory is misleading, over stated, provides faulty conclusions and is illogical given the progressives’ last two terms in power. The speaker is unknowingly right about another trickle down event from liberals. Only it isn’t raining.

  310. Well, well.

    The genius JAL showed up, but never answered two very simple questions. Surely there is another MoveON parade to attend to.

    P.S. – Anybody thinks women would have been on time doesn’t know most women. I’ve been waiting in the car for 27 years.

  311. P.S. – Anybody thinks women would have been on time doesn’t know most women. I’ve been waiting in the car for 27 years.

    LOLOLOLOLOL So true! Women are many admirable things but punctual is not one of them.

    My wife is the exception – real stickler about time. But my daughter will be late to her own funeral. And my mother was notorious about running late.

  312. Raji, JAL’s cartoon reflected my understanding of trickle down. Again, from what I understand, trickle down is NOT about wealthy corporations giving secure jobs with good pay to people who in turn hire nannies and gardeners and spend their money at other businesses.

    Trickle down is about rich INDIVIDUALS spending their money and fueling the economy. But many if not most rich people horde their money and it never trickles down.

    If we were serious about a strong economy we would incent corporations to hire Americans and keep them employed. The old IBM did not lay off a single employee during the Great Depression. Under much better economic circumstances, the new IBM does a quarterly purge.

  313. I have a simple question. Technology (probably cost prohibitive for the average Joe) is keeping Dick Cheney alive. The man is clearly on borrowed time. So why would he waste what little time he has left being a prick?

  314. Cheney is doing God’s work, Rutherford. 🙂 What is it that you goons from the Left hate that man so? Is it because he gives your own medicine back to you in spades? Man, you Leftists are really going to hate me. LOL I like Cheney – often times find him brilliant in particular capacities – didn’t like the way he chose to fight the Iraq War, so I don’t find him perfect.

    You guys don’t understand the concept of supply-side economics, do you? It reality, the idea is pretty simple and I find it innately and technically correct using even utilizing the most simple theory of basic economics.

    The idea is to lower market entry barriers and emphasize aggregate growth to supply goods and services, in theory increasing the investment of capital – hence the name, supply side.

    You can argue all you want about your socialized ideas of sharing I suppose. I think your falsely based assumptions are that all people are equal, given the same opportunities is bogus.

  315. I’m almost tempted to revert to Pfesser level and scream out some blasphemy.

    Ever since my father died, my mother has entertained herself (grandkids supposedly were the reason) on an IPad we mistakenly bought for her last Christmas. She didn’t know how to turn on a computer, much less use a computer a year ago. Five grandkids have her up to speed. A month or so ago, mom discovered I have a fictitious Facebook account and asked to be “my friend.” How exactly do you “reject” your own mother’s request? It’s been hell ever since.

    Every morning and afternoon now, I open my mail box to find I’ve been tagged with pictures of food, corny jokes, family pictures from days gone by, stories of people I don’t know, church issues, etc..etc…etc.

    Do you think my mother would disown me if I defriended her? 😦 She’s driving me nuts. We’ve created a monster. LOL

  316. Rutherford, your understanding of trickle down economics is hazy. As Tex implied, your first mistake is assuming largess comes from individuals. Re read Tex’s comment again.

    Do Obama and the progressives implement trickle down now, or do they use something different? Does it continue as in years past? If we still have it, why, when progressives allegedly hate the concept would they still support trickle down? Why is the economy still sluggish if the trickle down theory has been replaced? That cartoon doesn’t make sense as I wrote earlier.

  317. So let me get this straight. Your mom has friended you through a bogus FB account that you set up? Did she identify you as her son in the relationship status?

    LOL I just don’t understand folks with fictitious FB accounts. FB, unlike Twitter or Rutherford Lawson’s Bar and Grill, is a PERSONAL place where real people connect. Folks who don’t want the interaction shouldn’t be there.

    FWIW you can stop getting her updates without unfriending her. I’m pretty sure even if you did unfriend her, she would not be notified.

  318. R, your understanding of economics is precisely what Gruber was describing. Sorry. If you cared, you could spend some time and understand better. But after all this time commenting here, I know for certain you really don’t care to understand. You’re in your 50s. You should find that that cartoon insults your intelligence. The fact that it you don’t is willful.

  319. My fictitious name, goober, is Tex Taylor. My kids were already my friends, so I can look at their pictures. My mother joined the bandwagon and quickly figured out who I was.

    The only reason I have a FB account is so I can use Disqus and read the WSJ articles. 🙂

    If I want to get personal, I’ll go see someone and rub the flesh. Frankly, I find FB like a plague upon our society. But I enjoy viewing my children’s pictures without them having to attach a text message.

  320. Cheney is doing God’s work, Rutherford.

    😯 😐 🙂 😀 😆 😆 😆 Oh, I can’t let that one go. We certainly do serve opposing entities if you call what Cheney does and has done ‘God’s work’. I can’t see the good fruit any where near that rotting carcass. That is one awful grand delusion ruminating under that hat rack. 😆

  321. I have daily notices from fb in my email. Tagged in a picture, included in some adventure, or someone with some friend request. Then there are those that ‘like’ the tag, blah, blah, blah. I suppose I could turn off email notices.

    My mom is actually on it more that I am. Mrs poolman and I avoid it for the most part today, but there was a time we were all in right after the economy crashed and we found ourselves with much more free time and a vastly unexplored internet.

  322. Slack: “Cheney is doing God’s work, Rutherford.”

    Cheney-the-Crusader, eh? LOL

    Precisely why organized religion is so dangerous. It lets one displace one’s own evil onto “a higher power.”

  323. Slack: “And you really think Sarah Palin is the dumbest broad in politic?”

    That’s too modest. She’s quite possibly the dumbest “broad” on the planet.

  324. ‘Trickle down is about rich INDIVIDUALS spending their money and fueling the economy. But many if not most rich people horde their money and it never trickles down.”-R

    R, does this article help?

    INVESTOPEDIA EXPLAINS ‘Trickle-Down Theory’
    President Reagan’s economic policies, commonly referred to as “Reaganomics” or supply-side economics, were based on trickle-down theory. The idea is that with a lower tax burden and increased investment, business can produce (or supply) more, increasing employment and worker pay. Reagan initially slashed the top income-tax rate from 70% to 50%. Trickle-down policy’s detractors see the policy as tax cuts for the rich and don’t think the tax cuts benefit lower-income earners……..
    ……..According to the trickle-down theory, if tax rates are lower, people have an incentive to work more because they get to keep more of the income they earn. They then spend or invest that income, and either of these activities will improve everyone’s prosperity, not just the prosperity of those in the highest income brackets. What’s more, in the end, the government may actually collect more income tax despite the lower tax rates because of the additional work performed. The Laffer Curve shows how this relationship works. If the government taxes 0% of income or 100% of income, it takes in no money. In between these two extremes, tax revenues vary because different tax rates encourage people to work more or to take more leisure time.

  325. R, the example I gave of nannies and gardeners was a simplified version of trickle down. Investopedia gives a more detailed explanation.

  326. Thanks for that explaination, Raja. Rutherford should read it several times.

    Parker, that comment about Palin was just dumb. It does illustrate your anti-Palin bigotry which is a variation of Bush Derangement Syndrome.

    Our daughter thought Face Book would be nice for me, so I joined. Some of my friends were former writers on three blogs which probably no longer exist. It was nice to keep track of people, One woman who discovered my name and requested friendship wrote are you “my James?” My wife asked “what?” I wasn’t really interested,and I quit checking after a year before our grand daughter was born. Its been so long, the site doesn’t even notify me of new developments or tell me what I missed.

    The Vietnam Veterans of America asked me to call via e mail yesterday. They are making a list of veterans, their stories and addresses. For $50 to $90. depending on the budget, I can get a copy after they get my updates. I have no quarrel with contributing something, but why do I need to contact any of the veterans? it is as much waste of time as FB.

  327. To you viralent Palin or other haters, read “Ideology and Utopia” by Karl Manneheim. The liberalism of the Enlightenment rested on the supposition that agreement on the facts was separate from agreement on values applied to them. Karl argued that we would never be able to separate the two and we would always see facts colored by preformed ideologies. Thus,liberal Enlightenment democracy was doomed to fail.

    The same process is evident in Ferguson and the debate over firing or hiring Coach Pelini of the University of Nebraska.

  328. Nobody’s a Palin-hater, just an observer and reporter of the obvious. As you imply, James, some of her “values” are, indeed, commendable.

    That doesn’t mean she has enough sense to come in out of the rain.

  329. Brick and Drunk,

    Did you imbeciles really think I thought Dick Cheney did God’s work, did you? LOL Oh boy.

    Not that would surprise me with the church pantry thief. The congenital stupidity is self-evident since Brick first appeared. He should have married Margaret or Helen. Maybe he did. But you, Drunk, I thought you a little brighter than that, maybe even recognize the hyperbole. The fog of heavy drink is catching up with you.

    If by chance these fanatics make it to our shores with real threat, I fully expect both of you cowardly worms to turn to jelly and hide behind your wife’s size 22 mumus, or bleat for help from the very people you’ve demonized here.

    Drunk – you didn’t answer my questions about Obama’s drone program. How about I make a challenge since you have tendencies like that genius JAL to slither off anymore after boast and then pretend you didn’t say it. Put down the drink and give it some thought. Because I don’t think you’ve got a coherent answer in your ongoing stupor.

  330. Oh, come on Pfesser. Since when did “sense” rate high in your lofty book of judgment?

    Poolman’s not smart enough to pour piss out of a boot with the instructions on written on the heel and he’s the only friend you’ve got left.

  331. Raji – an excellent capsule summary of the Laffer curve. (I actually met Arthur Laffer when I was in B-school in the U.S.)

    The “trickle-down” theory has been tested, too. A “luxury” tax was imposed in US many years ago, in an attempt to force the rich to pay their “fair share.” It hit luxury yachts particularly hard.

    The net effect? The rich stopped buying luxury yachts and put tens of thousands of ship-builders out of jobs. The rich guys either bought other stuff or kept their money.

    That’s the Left’s problem: they don’t understand that people have choices, and smart rich people have lots of them. Screw them and they’ll simply take their money elsewhere and you won’t get ANY of it.

  332. “Why did Clinton continue….”

    I don’t know…he was too busy dickie dunking? Not easy to end the party when every one thinks they are having a fantastic time.

    “And why did America experience the longest period of sustained economic growth in our nation’s history between 1981-2007?”

    Why did it end in a HUGE crash in 2008? Just who exactly gained wealth during the longest period of sustained economic growth? And who has little to show for that longest period of sustained economic growth? IMO it was the biggest con game the Cons ever pulled off.

    Liberals aren’t the only ones standing with a wet leg.

  333. JAL do you really think the US economy (or that of any industrialized country) was ever any “good” ?
    The brutal fact is …capitalism hurts. The thought that any one party in the USA deserves higher scorn or applause for anything regards the economy is laughable. History shows us time and time again the same variants at play. Democrats embraced Wall St. money for decades and now the faux populists like Waters and Warren want you to see the light.
    Republicans deride regulation yet are some of its staunchest supporters in many sectors all along also championing the loosening of regulations and domestic policy items that also have a negative impact on America.
    Clinton,Reagan & Bush 1 better than Carter & Obama hands down! : Where do I begin??
    Eisenhower better than Johnson: Post war prosperity and Pax Americana vs pissing it all away.
    Harding better than FDR: Austerity vs fascism
    Teddy R key too. True progressive development
    Obviously there is something to be said about the Legislative body during these times as well as the makeup of Americans themselves.

  334. I’m not convinced, Parker.

    A lot of irrational Palin hatred is still out there. Consider this: Gretchen Wilson is a red neck. She turned her identity into a successful, award-winning music career. Last year,she became a NASCAR ESPN commentator. Her music career has peaked.

    Sarah Palin is another redneck who used her persona for political advantage. She was a popular and successful politician, and she used the notoriety to make herself rich. She like Wilson is basically a has been who’s original career has faded. So why should you care?

    Both of these women seem smart to me. They are richer and more successful than any of us. I can name many people from the president on down who are less intelligent than these two women, As proof, consider the Democrats led by Obama’s turning an epic world worship fest into a fetid swamp. I see Karl Manheim at work like a Manheim .Steam Roller-a local musician who made good.

  335. Why did it end in a HUGE crash in 2008?

    Just to measure your economic chops, why don’t you tell me? I’ll give you a hint. Many of the largest benefactors before the crash were Obama’s largest campaign donors. And if you think it was supply-side economics, I’ll help straighten you out after you’ve provided the cut & paste answer.

    Just who exactly gained wealth during the longest period of sustained economic growth? And who has little to show for that longest period of sustained economic growth? IMO it was the biggest con game the Cons ever pulled off.

    JAL. I assume you’ll be voting for Hillary Clinton or Elizabeth Warren come 2016? Can you tell me how many jobs they’ve ever created and how they both became multimillionaires? Do you have a big beef with those 1%’ers? Was it on account of trickle-down economics those two made their fortunes?

    You are aware in Barack Obama’s stunning economic recovery, the aggregate middle class has never experienced such historical losses in wages in such a short period, aren’t you? And the rich have never gotten richer? Barack Obama’s failed policies haven’t stopped the wealth disparity – in fact, it has accelerated the difference between rich and middle class like never before. Are you aware of that inconvenient fact?

  336. Why did it end in a HUGE crash in 2008

    Exactly! Because it was ENGINEERED that way. The economy is MANipulated™ to profit those who control these boom and bust cycles. The rich get richer and more powerful with every bubble and burst. We gave up control over our money system and this is the result.

    Don’t expect any stability or gain unless and until we unshackle ourselves from these vampire types. The taste of blood has tainted everyone in DC, so it may take revolt to behead this beast.

    Liberals aren’t the only ones standing with a wet leg.

    Yeah, but try convincing the right they are wrong and collectively have no solutions. E.g., look at the local heel filling everyone’s boots with piss. I’m sure you are familiar with the fairy tale ‘Puss and Boots’, right? At Rutherford’s we have ‘Piss in Boots’.

  337. James,

    Pfesser’s real beef with Palin is that Palin is overtly religious. Has nothing to do with Palin’s intellect, or policy, or anything else – just the fact Palin is an Evangelical and Pfesser sawing her praying for healing (with a witch doctor), or something like that. 😆

    If Palin were one of those Alaskan bloggers fighting Dominionists, Pfesser would be singing Palin’s praises and possibly casting a vote for her.

    This last week, Nancy Pelosi helped craft a budget proposal, then argued against it voicing her profound disappointment in Barack Obama for helping push it through. Now if that isn’t the apogee of stupidity, I don’t what is. Maxine Waters doesn’t know what the word nationalize means. We’ve got female Black Congressional representatives that can’t speak English. Debbie Whatshername Schultz is Poolman IQ. I could go on and on and on about dumb female representatives in Congress alone that make Palin look like Newton.

    Pfesser is a religious bigot. I’m not sure what his motivation, but apparently, he must have had a traumatic childhood experience with a pastor or priest. Something…who knows. But he’s a one-trick pony.

  338. Capitalism as alfie writes creates a lot of pain, and when conditions change whole industries die with mass dislocations. Capitalism is based on greed and self interest. Capitalism, unregulated by governments and by elections can become a pernicious beast. However it is the best system we have, and capitalism has given more people freedom and material goods than any other system the world has tried.

    Democrats contributed to the 2008 crash. Bush and the Republicans in Congress warned about the poorly regulated mortgage market, but men like Barney Frank said everything was fine. The facts survive, but the press reported and slanted them. Karl Manheim struck again. People believe what they want to believe.

  339. Well, I didn’t deny Brick that I do enjoy peeing on your leg because you’re profoundly stupid, mouthy, classless, and an asshole who would be facing a fire squad if I were King. The fact you’re too ignorant to know how to take the full boot off is none of my concern, but you are in desperate need of voiding.

  340. Pissed you off didn’t I Mr. Mumu, size 22? 😈

    Poolman, trading barbs with a carny like you is almost unfair. You’ll notice when you’re not a prick and direct the barbs at me, I mostly ignore you? No, you’re too dumb. That was rhetorical.

    But you just can’t keep from tempting fate. It’s one of the reasons you’re place in life is used douche bag. You keep believing your Brother Nathaniel and I’ll keep believing God and we’ll call it even.

  341. Alfie makes sense to me. And he confirmed one thing I said earlier – that neither Bush nor Obama deserve blame for this economy.

    Capitalism is a monster that without restriction, devours the weak and strengthens the rich. Maybe I should stop being angry at IBM. They are simply taking advantage of unfettered capitalism, supported by our legislators and tolerated by our citizenry.

    You can say what you like about Warren but her message resonates. Her speech on the Senate floor yesterday against the power of CitiGroup was ballsy and beyond the reach of Hillary Clinton.

  342. James, regarding the gentle treatment received by Eric Garner, apparently a NYC police handbook (I don’t recall the exact name of the publication) defines a chokehold as pressure applied to the neck or chest.

    So to all the deniers who are now claiming that Garner was not even in a chokehold — pure bullshit according to the NY police’s own standards.

    Like I said before: Garners family should suck every dime out of NYC.

  343. They are simply taking advantage of unfettered capitalism, supported by our legislators and tolerated by our citizenry.

    Nah, it’s more than that, Rutherford. IBM slipped as a company, or should I say their outrageous arrogance from the 70s and 80s finally caught up with them? At one time there was a shared culture at IBM – a source of pride in not only being #1, but being a great company to work for. Now it’s just chasing the myopic Almighty Buck. The Big Blue of 1985 doesn’t exist anymore and I doubt it’s ever coming back. It’s become a service organization – and it shows.

    PCs did more than make Bill Gates the richest man in the world – it also destroyed the culture of IBM.

    But that’s not the fault of capitalism – it’s the fault of poor management and years worth of poor business decisions at IBM.

  344. “you didn’t answer my questions about Obama’s drone program.”

    He’s been pretty silent on Australia’s assistance in CIA interrogations and Black Site rendition transfers, too..which has been going on since the Clinton Administration, and continues under the Obama Administration.

  345. Democrat supporters like to brag that Obama hasn’t put anyone new into Gitmo. Where do they think captured combatants are going? Is Obama just killing them all?

    They’re going to other countries, many of which are know to torture prisoners.

    When Obama said “the United States doesn’t torture”, he didn’t say we won’t have our enemies tortured. All he meant was that we’ll have others do it for us.

    It’s torture-by-proxy. I’m going to guess the Senate Intelligence report mentions none of this.

  346. IBM slipped as a company, or should I say their outrageous arrogance from the 70s and 80s finally caught up with them? At one time there was a shared culture at IBM – a source of pride in not only being #1, but being a great company to work for. Now it’s just chasing the myopic Almighty Buck. The Big Blue of 1985 doesn’t exist anymore and I doubt it’s ever coming back. It’s become a service organization – and it shows.

    Amen brother on that. Very well said. LOL I should be pissed at IBM after all.

  347. There may have been more than what I saw on television Rutherford. I know what it is like to be attacked, and what we saw was tame and gentle. It also was in slow motion. My little encounter was over in a little more than a minute. It happened so fast, I hardly had time to enjoy it. I thought he was dead, but the speed of the fight misled me, and I let go.

    I am convinced a head lock or chock hold did not kill Garner, but negligence did. His neck appeared clear when he said “I can’t breathe.” Therefore, he could still breathe with difficulty. He was sick, and his position combined with exertion and stress killed him.

    As soon as Garner said he couldn’t breathe the police should have changed his position and gotten off of him. They didn’t, and for that reason, I agree with you. The family should sue for all they can get. I think Garner didn’t have to die, but for reasons different than many protesters.

    Since this brings back memories. Here is another. You remember my being detained on an Italian air base. This is closer to Garner territory. I hospitalized a man for four days with my thumb. It also gave me six weeks of physical therapy.

  348. I agree Huck, except for the released prisoners who return to fight us. Bush and Obama released the wrong men quite a few times. Recently about five of our prisoners went to Uruguay. Maybe it was to enjoy the summer sun,

  349. Rutherford that isn’t really anywhere near what I was saying. The POTUS throughout history have had direct and indirect impacts on the economy. They have enjoyed the applause when it’s good news they deserved he smack when it isn’t.
    As for my senior Senator I cannot fathom how you think she did or said anything admirable. She is a hysterical spinster screaming and hoping somebody listens. She is no better than Palin in that regard.

  350. She is a hysterical spinster screaming and hoping somebody listens. She is no better than Palin in that regard.

    I’ve heard two competing narratives. One that the item in the cromnibus bill rolls back an important part of Dodd-Frank and the other that the item is a nothing burger at worst and a help to small banks and agriculture at best.

    I don’t know who to believe.

    But I’ll say this. “Dodd-Frank wasn’t perfect. We should have broken you up into pieces.” — Liz Warren to CitiGroup. THAT kind of fire sends tingles up my leg. 🙂

  351. I guess I misinterpreted this:
    <

    The thought that any one party in the USA deserves higher scorn or applause for anything regards the economy is laughable.

    I took this to mean Bush is no more to blame for the economy than Obama.
    Putting aside interest rates and printing money, isn’t the economy pretty impervious to gov intervention?

  352. Rutherford, there are voices on the right I have heard (actually more like read) the last couple days who are also not really happy about the CitiGroup-written clause that essentially put the taxpayer (again) at risk for actions of lenders.

  353. I should have been paying attention but I didn’t. I will embarrass myself anyway. Banks were forbidden to invest all of their money in themselves. They had to put some of their assets derivatives into third party institutions and assets like oil. The new legislation would re establish the old way with banks investing the assets into themselves.

    The Pelosi wing says this would let banks gamble with federally insured money and increase the risk that bad bets would require a federal bail out. This is part of a Republican attempt to weaken Dodd-Frank which they say over regulates the financial industry. They say restrictions on derivatives weakens smaller, including rural banks

    Another provision of the bill is to provide military aid to Ukraine. der

  354. Yeah I don’t get why because with her she’s not talking Glass Steagal she’s talking just vindictive anti capitalist stuff. Tingles up you leg shivers down my spine.

  355. Am I missing the national call to boycott Sony Pictures? Shouldn’t there be some black stars speaking out and refusing to work for the racist producer Scott Rudin?

  356. Black stars and the public have been rather quiet about the news of racist comments haven’t they. The horror of the two grand jury decisions has probably shocked them into quietude. They will recover any day now.

    Here is some information on Elizabeth Warren. She grew up in a middle class family which suffered reverses when her father had a heart attack. Her first job was as a baby sitter at age nine.

    True LIberal Nexus, a conservative site said her unverified claim to be a Native American when, in fact she would be hard pressed to prove she was 1/32 Cherokee which is insufficient to claim membership in a tribe. She filled a minority slot which helped her career. Warren said later she did it to meet minority people. It didn’t work, so she quit catigorizing herself as an Indian. Real Cherokees were angry.

    Some professors charge that Warren fudged data for a book.

    She also made a nice profit flipping foreclosed homes.

    In 2009, Warren represented Travelers Insurance which wanted to avoid payment to thousands of workers with asbestos poisoning. She defended the litigation by saying the case was one insurance company against another. She helped the workers by getting Travelers to set up a trust fund which was better than nothing. The Supreme Court later negated the settlement which left the workers with nothing.

    She represented LTV Steel in 1995 when they attempted to renege on health and pension benefits for retired coal workers. She has also served as a lawyer or adviser to many companies attempting to avoid liabilities for asbestos poisoning.
    t
    Legal Insurrection discovered that Warren might not be licensed to practice law in Massachusetts. She claimed it was alright, because she was dabbling.

    Elizabeth tried to take credit for Occupy Wall Street when she said she was the inspiration for the movement.,

    She is an extreme leftist like Obama. No wonder the Obama people are leaning toward Elizabeth Warren. Non-socialist people who vote for her will after her first four years cry that they were hood winked, and just as with Obama they will regret voting for her. “I was fooled.” again and again.,

  357. @ Rutherford a few closers for me on this thread….
    1. Given your background I think if you have any opinion what so ever on the controversy brewing over Uber,Lyft and similar ride services and the concept of technology trying to enter the economy it may prove an interesting post indeed.
    2. Although I get your emotional attachment to this “new page” in the civil rights movement regard the police and the use of force I hope you don’t get sucked in2 the void that is there. When you boil it all down the proponents of the movement are really trying to destroy something not improve it. Hate to see you get stuck on the wrong side of history on this one. Tread carefully. IMO what is being pushed for more and more is the eradication of the proven “broken windows” policy. Opposition to “BW’s” policing is an old page from the American liberal handbook and its going to indiscriminately destroy if its embraced.
    3. Presidents and more importantly government totally impacts the economy. Whether when it tries to tame it via regulation or let it run free via laissez faire government is intrinsically attached and owns wholly some of the outcomes.
    4. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep your wits about you regards Elizabeth Warren. Your passion for her leaves me wondering if some of your recent epiphanies here are less than truthful. Going where she wants to be isn’t a place I think you really want to be.

  358. Alfie, there are some (me being one) that disagree with your #3

    Stephen Dubner: No, you won’t. They’ve got their self interests, but just once I’d love a presidential candidate to get up there on the stump and say: ‘My fellow Americans, I can’t control the U.S. economy. I’ve got a little bit of influence but mostly it does what it does. So if it gets worse on my watch, you shouldn’t blame me — and if it happens to get better, you probably shouldn’t give me too much credit either.’

  359. I did say

    Presidents and more importantly government….

    and this is easily seen in such things as Community Reinvestment Act, the miners strike early 20th century and the NLRB’s inception as well.

  360. Apparently there is much more going on with Uber and Lyft besides a rape in India which of course is all we heard from the MSM. Seems to me after a bit of research the main issue is fees and regulations (technology?)

    “The Uber lawsuit lays out five areas where the company allegedly broke the law: it made “untrue or misleading” statements about the strength of its driver background checks, it charged UberX riders a $1 “Safe Rides Fee” related to those background checks, it calculated fares without going through the proper state agencies, it operated illegally at California airports, and it fraudulently charged airport fees to riders that it did not then pay to airports.

    The two district attorneys’ offices threatened to sue Uber, Lyft and Sidecar in September. Back then, they focused on background checks but also slammed the companies’ carpooling options. They said the carpool services — where strangers going in the same direction can be passengers in the same car — are illegal because state law doesn’t allow commercial drivers to charge separate fares for one trip.

    But at Tuesday’s press conference, the carpool outrage was gone. The prosecutors have decided to let the California Public Utilities Commission define regulation for carpooling options and no longer consider them immediately illegal.

    Past threats agains Lyft, Uber and Sidecar haven’t ever really stopped the companies from doing what they want. The California Public Utilities Commission threatened to shut down all three companies’ operations in JUNE because they kept serving San Francisco International Airport when they didn’t have the proper permits
    Lyft and Uber only have permits to operate at San Francisco International Airport, which they were granted in OCTOBER.”

  361. She is an extreme leftist like Obama. No wonder the Obama people are leaning toward Elizabeth Warren. Non-socialist people who vote for her will after her first four years cry that they were hood winked, and just as with Obama they will regret voting for her. “I was fooled.” again and again.,

    James you really need to stop parroting nonsense. Obama has been an EXTREME disappointment to leftists. Lizzie makes Barack look like Ted Cruz.

  362. Am I missing the national call to boycott Sony Pictures? Shouldn’t there be some black stars speaking out and refusing to work for the racist producer Scott Rudin?

    I am amused by the coverage this has gotten. OMG liberals can be racially insensitive. Imagine that!

  363. I’m at a gymnastics meet trying not to lose my temper as parents stand in front of the audience taking pictures and blocking my view. I go through this shit every year.

  364. “OMG liberals can be racially insensitive. Imagine that!”

    You’re speaking to the emails that were released. I am speaking to the lack of liberal outrage over them.

    I guess it’s ok to make fun of our black president as long as you still pretend to like him.

  365. I’m not parroting nonsense any more than I was when I wrote that Obama was a socialist allied with the New Party. Yes, to leftists “Lizzie makes Obama look like Ted Cruz.” I know they consider him to be a political moderate who was too eager to get along with Republicans.

    That wasn’t my point. My point was that in her way Liz is as dishonest as Obama. She makes herself into something she is not. In reality, “Lizzie makes Obama look like Lizzie.” Anyone who isn’t a socialist and votes for Elizabeth will be just as disappointed in her as one who voted for Obama.

    As alfie wrote, presidential policy does have an indirect effect on the economy. Elizabeth would turn the Obama effect into the new norm.

  366. “Anyone who isn’t a socialist and votes for Elizabeth will be just as disappointed in her as one who voted for Obama.”

    And that disappointment will start when she starts taking campaign money from Wall St.

  367. R-Give me a professional cabbie any day of the week.”

    I don’t know R. The more I look into Uber, the more I think the technology will eventually win over the “cabbie” as we know it. Of course on the other side, why can’t a taxi company use the same technology?

    “Uber is one of a new generation of dematerializing, demonetizing and democratizing technologies that’s disrupting the status quo. Simply put, Uber is a product adored by passengers and Uber drivers alike. It uses technology to dramatically improve a broken system. It solves a pain point. As a result, hordes have left the traditional taxis and rental car options. Understandably, these incumbents aren’t happy, and where do they turn?

    Technologies that leverage the 6 D’s will WIN
    In my mind, the companies and products that solve problems most effectively (and most cheaply) will win. Many of these are the products that follow the 6 D’s of exponential change. To demonstrate what this means, for those not part of Abundance 360, let’s look at how Uber fits into this model:
    • Digitized: Uber digitized the taxi-calling experience, the payments process, the taxi-navigating process, the fare splitting process, and more.
    • Deceptive to Disruptive: In my mind, Uber, despite being an $18 billion company, is still in its deceptive growth stage. Just wait until we get into automated vehicles and self-driving cars. Guess who will be perfectly positioned to take over that market?
    • Dematerialized: Uber dematerialized a number of things, including the need for taxi fleets. In some cases, it dematerialized owning a car for many who elect to “Uber” everywhere instead.
    • Demonetized: Uber eliminated the annoying fees and taxes that taxis require, as well as taking “tipping” out of the picture.
    • Democratized: UberX is cheap and available to anyone with a smartphone (and the service in the area). It is democratizing transportation.”

  368. Huck “And that disappointment will start when she starts taking campaign money from Wall St.”

    Thanks to the Obama Presidency that very well may happen thanks to the Supreme Court’s decision in the Citizens United case.

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