Just Look at the Balls on This Guy!

Jimmy Carter has come out against Barack Obama’s foreign policy. Are you kidding me?

I’m the first one to give the peanut farmer props for getting Israel and Egypt to kiss and make up. But on foreign policy, his résumé just about ends there. This is the man who sat helpless, whining about malaise while our countrymen were held captive for over a year. The only people glad for Jimmy’s FP chops are ABC and Ted Koppel who turned his incompetence into the ratings juggernaut “Nightline”.

Jimmy is making it clearer why all the ex-presidents pretty much hate his guts. I’m betting he just added another name to the list.

What do you think? The bar is open.

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738 thoughts on “Just Look at the Balls on This Guy!

  1. LOL! All that remains to be seen, is if Obama can exceed Jimmy Carter as worst Ex-President. The Dishonest Obe blasted past Jimbo’s Presidential incompetence in about March 2009.

  2. Hey Rabbit you done with your Grizzly Adams outing? You bring home any meat for the winter?

    As for my cold, I’m giving it my usual treatment of huge doses of caffeine.

  3. Sadly Tex, I find Obama so ego driven that I can’t even fathom what kind of ex prez he will be. And he’s so young too. He’s got a lot of time ahead of him to waste.

  4. From the previous thread:

    I don’t need chivalry from you Rutherford but you say that silence is approval and then you are silent. You attached the meaning to your own silence. And you’ve repeatedly judged me for my silence here at various times in accordance with that meaning. That angered me.

    Guilty as charged.

    FWIW that was the most articulate you’ve been in ages. Much like your BFF Tex, when you put aside the snark and venom you write some compelling stuff. I’m still basking in the prose you wrote a few weeks ago about inner city youth. It showed a compassion I thought you had abandoned long ago.

  5. Rutherford Mitch McConnell’s Dem challenger won’t even say she voted for Obama. Wouldn’t even answer the question. The assembled were actually laughing.

    😆 😆 😆

  6. Muffy, all the Dem challengers are running from Obama. When slick Willie went to Arkansas he basically told the crowd “forget about Obama and vote with your heart”.

    What a long strange trip it’s been from hope and change.

  7. If they were smart, Rutherford, they would forget about Slick Willie too. Why?

    One of the very few things Obama can brag about, if you consider the current $600 billion dollar deficit something to brag, is the meme Obama’s “policies” have reduced the deficit. And you’ll remember this is why Slick was so beloved and nominated Patron Saint of the Democratic Party – the suppose balance budget.

    And I’ll defy anybody to tell me what Obama policies have lowered the deficit from $1.4 trillion to $600 billion, just as I’ll defy anybody to tell me what Clinton policies gave us a tiny deficit in 1999. Nobody has ever answered that to my satisfaction. They say Clinton and Obama raised taxes on the rich. But that’s only a fraction of story and only could account for a very small part of the increase in tax inflows.

    Here’s the deal. Slick happened to be President over a Tech Bubble. Stock bubbles have the luxury of reducing the deficit through massive inflows of capital gains taxes. Same thing happened with George Bush even with the war spending in 2007. There’s no magic government fix. It’s simple accounting. When this stock bubble implodes and the capital gains go bye bye, Obama’s magic economic fixes will go up in flames and his approval will sink to record lows. This administration has done little or nothing to cut government spending. Neither did George Bush in 2007, and in fact like Obama, Medicare Part D assured more spending.

    Slick just happens to be luckier and far more likeable than Obama. He’s also greasier. It was 1998 when I knew this country was in serious decline. And it’s only gotten worse.

    If you’re not going to abandon the Democratic Party for social issues, you ought to at least give consideration to abandoning their economic policies which are killing real job creation. The 5.9% unemployment is the biggest crock ever advertised – and even most Democrats know it this time, explaining the sour mood of the country.

  8. Firstly, I am offended by the use of “balls” in the title of your current article. Nobody has ever talked to me like that. It’s very sexist and misanthropic, and it has to stop, or I’m going to call my Daddy.


    On to serious stuff: There was an excellent article in Politico last week by Hisham Melhem, entitled, The Barbarians Within our Gates.

    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/09/the-barbarians-within-our-gates-111116.html#.VDe7R-evfbw

    Melhem argues that the appearance of ISIS is in reality just an expected consequence of the real problem: the complete collapse of Arab civilization.

    His arguments are well thought out and logical, and the conclusion inescapable. What occurs to me is, could the devolution of American black culture and the remarkable levels of violence within black neighborhoods be the result of a collapse of Black America’s civilization? Proving it would seem easy – there’s no need to repeat the mind-numbing statistics about single motherhood, welfare rates, drug and alcoholism rates – in short, numbers that reflect a set of social and cultural mores that are no more.

    Could the way forward for Black America really be to start refusing the government “help” that put them where they are? (Did you ever finish “Stop Helping Us?” If so, what are your final thoughts?)

  9. I agree with you Rutherford. Jimmy Carter did say that the Soviets had brainwashed him, and he
    beginning to regard them more realistically. Obama is not there yet. An Omaha talk show host said a Saturday Night Live star also active in other shows, was invited to the White House. He expected to see the president. He got a nice tour, but Obama didn’t show up as expected. Obama was golfing.

    Yes, black culture has devolved with too much government help, but whites are taking the same route. Progressive government is domesticating and infantilizing us like cattle.

    No one needs to tell you to be careful of your cold, but I am anyway.

  10. I agree with Alfie, our government has done an adequate job of containing Ebola here so far. Some of the mistakes made in Texas and other places are practice instead of policy. Since we don’t know everything about the disease or how it is spread, we also don’t know if Ebola will be stopped here or if it will decimate west Africa. I think the next flu epidemic or the diseases which are becoming immune to the effects of antibiotics are a greater danger, but they don’t panic us as Ebola does.

  11. I have yet to see one black “leader” step up and explain why the behavior in Ferguson, MO, was unacceptable. Once again last night, I was treated to a variety of black hosts, from the insufferably stupid Juan Williams to the bigot/moron Michael Eric Dyson telling me the police acted “stupidly” in St. Louis. Oh, and that Christianity is the moral equivalent to ISIS from the ever brilliant sociologist Dyson.

    And the thought occurred to me. Do blacks simply want to be ‘unpoliced?’ Why would any white officer even wish to be involved in a black crime – whether perpetrator or victim? It’s come to that. Like that around here too. A few years ago, some black man was gunned down in front of a chicken stand. And instead of calling police, the dining guests were more concerned with stepping over him to get their drumsticks.

    The dishonesty in the predominantly black community anymore isn’t debatable. For instance, this last young black man shot in St. Louis was supposedly holding a sandwich when gunned down. Well, maybe. But he was also holding a pistol in the other hand while he shot at police before the gun jammed – and we’ll conveniently ignore he had a long rap sheet to boot.

    And the conclusion by the black community in St. Louis? Another innocent black youth shot down in cold blood.

    “R”, I know you probably believe I border on Klan because that’s the Democratic Party line. But can you at least see why I’m a skeptic and cynic of the majority of Black America to properly govern itself?

  12. “I’m still basking in the prose you wrote a few weeks ago about inner city youth. It showed a compassion I thought you had abandoned long ago.”

    Hey. What about me? What about my prose. I equated you with a fat chick riding a mechanical bull in the last thread. That’s some imagery you don’t find just anywhere. 😆

    In all seriousness, if you’d abandon the manipulative liberal “conservatives are bigots and white supremacists,” you’d find plenty of “compassion” around here — other than that validation-seeking, egocentric, blowhard PF.

  13. Tex I think one thing we have learned is the unemployment rate was ALWAYS a crock — a number used to manipulate public opinion.

    I think we may be at a tipping point where we can’t believe much of anything coming out of Washington and that goes for both sides of the aisle.

  14. Parker, still reading Stop Helping Us and will write a full review of it here when finished.

    I too am struck by the parallel between Islam and the plight of blacks. Apologists for both groups are badly hurting the groups they think they are defending.

  15. Raven Symone former star of “That’s So Raven” told Oprah that she is not an African American. She is an American. Oprah reacted with disbelief and asked her to explain herself. Someone on the YouTube site commented that “the ones who’ve encouraged this narrowing self-p0ercepetion, who’ve basically corralled blacks into this intellectual cul de sac of impotent self regard are the white liberal elite.” That sounds like the liberal Democrats Rutherford says he has voted for.

  16. Tex, my Dad worked in a predominantly black environment for 30 years. One of the great sadnesses of my life is that I can’t talk to him now about my current job. I’d estimate 50% of my current clientele are black. Some are polite and dignified. A large number are as ignorant as the day is long. And I swear it starts with the name. What’s in a name? Lots. When you start a call announcing your name as A’Precious Jones you’re already behind the curve. People are laughing at you.

    Among certain blacks any hint at assimilation seems to be a curse so they cling to that which separates them. But they don’t see how it isolates them.

    I saw my Dad laugh it off over the years but if I could talk to him today I’d ask him if it ever depressed him. It depresses the hell out of me.

  17. Hey. What about me? What about my prose. I equated you with a fat chick riding a mechanical bull in the last thread. That’s some imagery you don’t find just anywhere. 😆

    Oh yes, you do have a way with words. 🙂

  18. El Tigre, a “fat chick riding a mechanical bull” is imagery worthy of an awards list. I was so desperate to erase the scene from my mind that I watched another Brule video followed by Mel Torme and Slim Whitman. As Slim sang “I remember You” “Bouncing Betty” jiggled like jello. Shame on you!

  19. A’Precious Jones you’re already behind the curve

    LOL! True dat. Talk about behind the 8 ball from the start.

    I always found it ironic that your name was far more biblical than mind, by the way. 🙂 If it possible, our mothers should have talked.

  20. Jimmy Carter is a special kind of fail. Deeper and honest reflection on Carter Obama parallels though would prove many similarities.
    @ James I’m rereading Canetti. OMG I forgot how dry yet filling it was.

  21. I find it odd that the Islamic and or or is crashing meme is so strong. Why is it crashing as opposed to having a reformation moment?
    As for black America although I am firmly in the Moynihan camp there is something to be said of a system that is as much a social kill net as it is a safety net.
    “The white man ain’t left me nothing but the underworld that is where I dance “

  22. James, I never met a “Slim” I didn’t like, including Pickens and Jim.

    RIP, Slim Whitman. We barely knew ye.

    Ain’t “Bouncing Betty” a landmine?

  23. Yes, El Tigre, I like both Slims and I was a fan of Slim Whitman’s singing.

    You are right, a bouncing Betty is a land mine invented by the Germans before WW11. It was designed to shoot up from underground to about waist level and explode. They were used against tanks. Later, America, Vietnam and other countries used similar versions. They did nasty things to soldiers as I joked your creative imagery did to my mind. You caught me being silly.

  24. I always found it ironic that your name was far more biblical than mind, by the way. 🙂 If it possible, our mothers should have talked.

    It’s funny that as I scanned through Poolman’s list of biblical names at least four were in my very secular extended family. 🙂

  25. Sorry gang — I just took a look at the other theme (template) I was thinking of using for the blog and it didn’t really solve any of the current problems and in fact made some worse. I’m afraid we’re stuck with this one. On another front, I’m looking to replace my desktop email client and that has me on the verge of a mental breakdown. I’m not having a good software day today.

  26. Alfie, I found this from two years ago —

    Islam is a good 600 years younger than Christianity. Christianity’s record for civil behavior was not peachy keen even within the past 300 years (e.g. Salem Witch Trials). Perhaps a Muslim reformation sometime in the future is not outside the realm of possibility?

    You thinking we’re on the verge of a Muslim reformation?

  27. Like many people you clearly did not understand Jimmy Carter and the incredible role that he played as president. As the last person of principal to hold that office he is well within his prerogative to critique Barack Obama. With that said I think that Obama has been the next most principled man in office.

    Don’t fall into the lazy trap of buying the Republican rhetoric on Carter. The self serving campaign of Teddy Kennedy smeared a decent and effective man and led to 12 years of moral and financial hell known as the Reagan Bush years.

  28. Christianity’s record for civil behavior was not peachy keen even within the past 300 years (e.g. Salem Witch Trials)

    I always found this somewhat humorous indicating the typical idiocy and selective memory of American Leftist/Libertarian history. I read somewhere, and I’ll have to find it, that you could take the most tragic event under the banner of “Christianity” (The Spanish Inquisition), and in the 20th Century alone, secular/atheistic rulers and their respective nations were 18,430,000% more likely to have killed their fellow man.

    If this current history of Islam was simply something like ISIS, I might be willing to accept the charges by the truly inane like Dyson and O’Donnell that a group of barbarians had co opted a religion to be used as guise for theocracy and destruction. But while something like the Salem Witch Trials is atypical of Christianity, ISIS is far more typical of the history of Islam.

    Anyone doubts me, provide me with one predominately Muslim country that has an extended period of recent peace (good luck) and I’ll demonstrate to you that even countries like Qatar, UAE, Indonesia all have bloody hands and a tragic record of human rights and events.

    And I’ll further challenge anyone to provide me with any country that has a better record of human rights than a nation governed by predominately Christians.

    That’s not to say we are perfect. But that we’ve done it far better than anyone else.

  29. Like many people you clearly did not understand Jimmy Carter and the incredible role that he played as president. As the last person of principal to hold that office he is well within his prerogative to critique Barack Obama. With that said I think that Obama has been the next most principled man in office.

    That’s the best parody I’ve read in a long time. 😈 I think the Obama Principle is the first I’ve ever witnessed whose principled objective is to get the last sordid scandal out of the public conversation by being crushed by another even more egregious scandal. Obama understands the short memories of most Americans well – that demonstrates stupendous “principal.”

  30. This administration reeks of incompitance. It is minor compared to the ObamaCare computer system or the war against ISIS, but it amused local newscasters. Michele Obama campaigned for the Democratic Senate candidate and got his name wrong until someone corrected her. She said he is a Marine veteran when he is not. His father was. Joanie Ernst , the Republican served in Iraq as a commander. I believe she is a Ltcol.in the National Guard.

    I agree with Tex. That is a wonderful parody.

  31. R – Have you seen this? It would appear that the iPhone “Bendgate” dust-up is all staged:

    http://www.businessinsider.in/BendGate-Truthers-Claim-The-Real-Story-Is-A-Media-Conspiracy-Against-The-iPhone-6/articleshow/43525575.cms

    When the guy is talking about how he bent the phone, the time on the phone itself is EARLIER than it was before he allegedly bent it on-screen. Oopsie!

    When you are at the top, you just have to expect that sort of thing. But, OTOH, for the canny, Youtube, Bing, and Google can be easily used to plant data for the unwary to find, too. There have been some very sophisticated scams played out in that fashion, and a lot of people made fools.

    Hell, everybody’s been fooled by a Ladasha or two; you just have to be careful.

  32. OTOH, for the canny, Youtube, Bing, and Google can be easily used to plant data for the unwary to find, too.
    Very true and an area I wonder of the either end of the political spectrum will fathom. Another example would be the WaPo under the leadership/ownership of Jeff Bezos.
    People on the Left especially are all about who controls a media operation. Where is the outrage at the consolidation now?
    Google=YouTube
    Bing = Gates
    WaPo+Bezos=flagrant monopolistic shenanigans merging media,info and commerce.
    Apple is just Apple.

  33. Some of my ancestors were on the wrong side of the Salem Witchcraft trials. They and another family were feuding. My family’s fourteen year old daughter had some sort of neurological condition which killed her while she was still in her teens. An unknown event led her to accuse the family of bewitching her. The husband fled. The wife was arrested and tried for witchcraft. Two or three members of the jury were my ancestors. The found her guilty and killed the woman and some other relatives. Three years later, my ancestors and others on the jury recanted and declared themselves to have done wrong. My direct ancestor then renounced his old church denomination and joined the Puritans.

    The Salem Witchcraft trials were part of a last gasp of such activity.. Religious folk had killed many for witch craft in the old country. It was a tradition which probably started in Pagan times. The practice sputtered and ended after the American tragedy. Muslims are not renouncing their religion, nor are they ceasing their mistreatment of other religions ad my ancestors did..

    If we judge modern Christianity by people who lived generations ago, you might as well condemn me for the sins of my ancestors on my mother’s side of the family. They were Viking enforcers in the Outer Hebredies.My genetic test shows a genetic wall west of Wales except for 6%. Irish. it is possible my ancestors, like the Vikings in Iceland captured and kept Irish slaves.

    None of this is relevant to our modern generation. As Hillary said “What at this point does it matter?”

  34. @ Ajax snare: Carters principles were as flexible as any politician and as such he sits nowhere higher on the good list than any of his followers or predecessors. Places where he took a shot,shifted a paradigm etc he equally showed a lack of resolve and foresight that had fantastically fatal results.

  35. R – re: your comment of 10 Oct. This phenomenon has been seen over and over. The Jews were so traumatized by the Holocaust that many wallowed in self-pity and anger for the longest time. Then someone said, “Look, we are just harming ourselves. Let’s get moving! Doing well is the best revenge.” Now look at them.

    The more I read American history, Rutherford, the more I am convinced that it was the LACK of pity that put the sand in the craws of the Italian, Russian, German, Irish immigrants and made them the successes they are in America today. This continuing bombardment of blacks with the “You owe me.” mentality has been 100 percent effective in holding them back and simultaneously making other groups hate them for all the “freebies” they get.

    Sometimes you have to recognize that your “friend” is not your friend. Your friend is hard work, not “help.” The biblical types will gladly tell you what is paved with good intention.

  36. @Muffy The comment I was trying to write got mangled by no screen and intuitive typing. Basically I find Parkers linked piece declaring the fall of the Arab world /Islamic world to be a misguided and overused meme. Quite simply I offer the possibility of a form of reformation is afoot is equally compelling explanation of what we’re all experiencing.
    Although the author of the linked article makes many good points I was left feeling a very simple truth was lacking. Arab peoples are obviously still more in tune with their origins and slaves to them than we in the West are. This is a phenomenon found in many cultures. It is thought in some corners that the Russians are virtually genetically predisposed to accept hardship and autocracy. Another good theory speaks to how the Nazis enjoyed the success they did secondary to the Germans so heavily identifying with the military/Prussian culture that founded the country and was flushed away by Versailles after WWI. In the absence of the military identity a brown shirt and armband was just the ticket.
    So back to the real point,I don’t think the Arab or Islamic world is crashing or facing disintegration. I think a common thread is the center of other very real struggles.

  37. @ Parker keep reading the history but by all means read all of it. You come to very sound conclusions and ones that many draw upon when downgrading black America. The thing is though there are some significant differences that are 100% undeniable and that are still a stain on our nation how deep in the closet we toss them. I’ll give you one thing though. The alleged black leaders? They don’t go ingot he closet very deep either for if they did they’d have to shine the light on a number of things they don’t want seen too.

  38. Ruthertford was that me?
    Yeah I think people make the wrong assumptions as to the Reformation for Christians. I also think people are ignorant to how scale impacts things. Further down the same road we have folks who get caught up in the here and now and find events to be as “new” and “troublesome” etc. as they are flogged and flakked by the media circus.

  39. @ Rutherford more follow up more in line to actually answering your question.
    I think a Muslim Reformation which many people have pondered is not necessarily going to look like the Christian one.
    The biggest area a Muslim Reformation will tackle is governance. The past has many examples where even the most fundamentalist entities entered into contracts,treaties etc. The past and present also has examples where rap music,”western” styles and sex still exist and yield to Friday prayers prior to the weekend.
    I will say this though. The West would do very well not to attempt to fight the reformation battle in the Islamic world. I think our best bet is on our own ground assert our democracy and monoculturalism. We must dump the PC BS. Assimilation Assimilation Assimilation!!!!!!! If the USA,France,Germany and UK breed a generation of folks that accept religion AND democracy in the right balance we will be more secure domestically and send a message that will (and does today already) gel within the Muslim world.

  40. @ James regards Cannetti….You having brought him up lead to my trip to the library. You’re a good influence on me for causing a revisiting of the book. 🙂

  41. @Alfie – The “black leaders” seem to me to be a real threat to black folks. I don’t know what is in their hearts, but viewing them from afar, it seems to me that they are throwing black people under the bus in order to featherbed their own very lucrative jobs as professional soreheads and agitators.

    It’s SOOOOO easy to just tell people what they want to hear, instead of what they NEED to hear. (It’s not your fault, the reason you are a thug is that the “man” is keeping you down. What you really are is a freedom fighter, and your thuggery is really “black rage,” and therefore, OK.) These buttholes are KILLING black people. Literally.

    If you want to change your life, you have to change your life. The first procedure is to come clean and stop lying to yourself. You lay the good and the bad out there for the world to see and you say, “The talking is over. Time to get to work.” Then you will not only win others’ respect, you will respect yourself as an honest man. And, probably less important, but equally good: you will make a success of your life.

    That’s how every minority group has done it; I see no reason why it won’t work for this one.

  42. @ Parker all clarion points but your closer is where the pendulum swings back:

    That’s how every minority group has done it; I see no reason why it won’t work for this one.

    A review of history will tell you that there was a stretch where the black community was doing just that and to their credit against odds at least slightly higher than the Irish,Italians,etc. What happened? Such great white ideas like urban renewal and forced desegregation.

  43. Thanks alfie. Your opinions and interpretations make me think, and I usually agree with you. Your “if you want to change your life, you have to change your life” applies to us all. Collectively such thought changes worlds.

    One minority group which had less success at integrating though they practiced “if you want to change your life” was the Fins. Like many immigrants, they worked hard and out competed other groups. They were clannish, introverted, and prone to violence during the early twentieth century labor movement. Society and competitive ethnic groups turned against them as just as many Americans became hostile to Mormons. Though some of the whitest people in the world, they faced the stigma of a mixed race because many Fins have up to a third Asian genes. For example, litigants tried to get a Fin deported under the Asian Exclusion Act. Instead of assimilating many Fins migrated to the socialist wonderland of Russia after the revolution.

  44. The path laid by the father is not one of argument with him, but rather argument with the open world laying before us, an argument in which we are together with the father, at one with him.We don’t fight with the power of the father, we share it, we learn the power, we master the power, together with the father we direct its energy toward our present and future.

    The above is
    a) A new age New Testament inspired passage
    b) An undisclosed Abrahammic reading recently discovered in Cyprus
    c) Alfie completely f@#$ing with you all
    d) An excerpt of the manifesto from a pro-Putin youth group this one particularly targeting 20 somethings

  45. “A review of history will tell you that there was a stretch where the black community was doing just that and to their credit against odds at least slightly higher than the Irish,Italians,etc. What happened? Such great white ideas like urban renewal and forced desegregation.”

    Hear. Hear. I think many – not all – black folks just cannot wrap their brains around the idea that most everybody wants them to do well. I think the average Joe hates seeing somebody else hungry or angry or dependent. But the problem is that the race-baiters like Jackson and Sharpton just keep telling everybody that they have to “have solidarity.” No, what they have to do is to behave themselves.

    Reminds me of the old Virginia Slims commercials. “You’ve come a long way, baby.” Remember those? Black and white picture of men with handlebar moustaches at a bar, hoisting beers while women scrub the floors at their feet. The caption: “Back in the Good Old days, men knew their places. So did the women.”

    Then cut to a COLOR picture of a modern girl with a long cigarette. “You’ve come a long way, baby.”

    Yep. Now the women’s lung cancer rate is higher than the men’s. A perfect example of using the War Between the Sexes to sell a bad product to the “oppressed.”

    The cig. manufacturers didn’t give a rip about women. They just wanted to exploit them. See an analogy there, Rutherford?

  46. It’s not just the black grievance hustlers that are the problem. Most of their community talks and believes the exact same way – racist and playing victim to the core. Ferguson is no anomaly – it’s simply the first boiled bubble. Hundreds of townships are one wrong shooting away from playing out Ferguson And our corrupt media ignores much of what goes down – mainly because they require the black vote.

    Trust me on this one, Alfie. There will be no Islamic reformation – it’s very premise is hostility and vengeance and I have no idea why so many of you could possible still be fooled into believing otherwise. It’s almost the measure of self-hate and American hating that I witness from the Left. Parker’s article spelled quite well that the entire Islamic civilization has either collapsed completely in respective nations, or is on the verge of collapse. When the despots are removed, Islam reveals its true nature.

  47. I don’t think Islamic culture is collapsing OR reforming. The indecent is winning over the decent and from there it’s full on world war. And they want to win. Ask yourself if the left wants to win.

  48. Parker I’ve been famous on this blog for saying “it takes 200 years of freedom to overcome 100 years of slavery”.

    I will amend that comment. It takes 300 years if you sit on your ass and wait for whitey to make it right.

    The true tragedy Parker is that there IS discrimination and bigotry in this country and it is COMPOUNDED by the self-defeating response.

  49. No, what they have to do is to behave themselves.

    The problem Parker is that needs context. Baggy pants and loud rap music. Yeah I get that. But for some, “behave yourself” means “know your place”.

    Context is everything.

  50. Tex you have a habit of discounting the nasty rhetoric of the OT by countering with the NT. If I’m not mistaken, Islam also has two books, one more peaceful than the other. Without looking it up I seem to recall it being Mecca and Medina. I’ll have to check later.

  51. Rutherford I believe in allowing human nature to play out.
    As for the forced desegregation thing once upon a time there were successful black communities and stable communities that were literally bulldozed for the sake of progress.

  52. I don’t think Islamic culture is collapsing OR reforming. The indecent is winning over the decent and from there it’s full on world war. And they want to win. Ask yourself if the left wants to win.

    Oooo you came so close to hitting the jackpot and then blew it.

    I DO see the Islamic State as the 21st century equivalent of Nazi Germany. I DO believe as more countries get involved we will indeed have WW III on our hands, though we will never dare say it.

    I DON’T believe liberals want to lose that war.

  53. “I’ve been famous on this blog for saying “it takes 200 years of freedom to overcome 100 years of slavery”.

    Why? Why not, say, several generations? Three.

  54. You’re not baiting but you are misunderstanding me. I think communities are rather organic and if they predominate along racial or social lines so be it. Where other communities collectively pursue,accept etc diversity that’s good too. No matter what though I believe in ultimate monoculturalism. In the case of the USA that means America the nation above all.
    Intellectually I understand slavery,think it should’ve been combated as it was internationally an should’ve been fought against harder in the States. Left unchecked or without care the U.S. Civil War would’ve still happened.

  55. Alfie if you’re talking integration of communities vs institutions then I think I agree with you. Why any black family would want to live in a community hostile to it just for the sake of making a statement I don’t get. My parents always DELIBERATELY moved to new communities so they would not be the integrators.

    That is different from schools, businesses and other institutions.

  56. The Islamic State isn’t Islam but the Salem witch hangings was Christianity?

    James, out of curiosity, what are the names of your ancestors from the Salem witch trials? The principle characters.

  57. “I DON’T believe liberals want to lose that war.”

    We’ll see. Obama doesn’t want to win it. I’m not even talking about his going to war despite being the President that ends wars, except when it wasn’t his decision, which of course it was. It’s his rhetoric, his mindset, his will.

  58. And really if MSNBC and CBS, ABC, NBC, and PBS, Hollywood, Colleges and Universities and liberal representatives not currently worried about their jobs are any indication – liberals don’t either. Want to win it.

  59. Well since you mention MSDNC, it’s funny to watch Chris Matthews see-saw on this week to week. When we started bombing Syria he was outraged. After the video of the captured soldiers digging their own graves, he was all for war again.

  60. “I assume you’re quoting the “average” lib. I certainly never said that.”

    Which part didn’t you say? That the Islamic state isn’t Islam?

    Chris Matthews is an overemotional wad.

  61. Funny, you say. That’s what the msm is for. In this case bumping up the fear factor. Bumping up the collective hate.

  62. Geez formatting and grammatical mistakes are HUGE now. Maybe that’s what rabbit means.

    “BTW Muffy I fully support aggression via gravatar.”

    Then let crunk through 🙂

  63. my comment was directed at Rutherford
    now on another page
    this comment negotiation is cumbersome
    i’m not sensing claustrophobic

  64. Rutherford did you experience forced desegregation as a kid? I did and let me tell you it didn’t benefit anyone. Sure the policy was handled int the most idiotic of manners but it didn’t improve anything as it intended,it made things worse.
    I’ve said it before. In Boston the BPS was preparing the new model of “magnet schools” and forced busing made it a joke. If the magnet schools were allowed to do what they were designed for they would have been really good on many levels. The “neighborhood” schools could have run the status quo course and benefitted as well the schools,community and the City at large.

  65. I DON’T believe liberals want to lose that war

    Rutherford do you think liberals want to be at war? Specifically at war against ISIL? If yes what are the motivating factors for it?

    FWIW I don’t think conservatives want to be at war with ISIL as much as they want a reboot at a war they as much as anyone helped to lose. I think conservatives are more engaged in the geography and politics that confronting ISIL and to a lesser degree Assad offers them. I for one find their position untenable to reality.

  66. I didn’t lay a smack down on liberals primarily because I wanted to afford you an opportunity to offer your answer unfiltered but I’m moving away from the web for the rest of the night….
    Do you remember when I had a post The Liberals get the war they wanted,what will they do with it?
    2011 post about attacking Libya. I don’t think ISIL is much different for the majority of your guys. Something is making you feel icky and you think it a good idea to do something.

  67. Geez formatting and grammatical mistakes are HUGE now. Maybe that’s what rabbit means.

    I’m finding blockquote works unpredictably for some reason so when it fails I use the markdown language. But then, maybe turning markdown on caused the problem in the first place.

    I’ll correct the formatting on your last comment post haste.

  68. Which part didn’t you say? That the Islamic state isn’t Islam?

    Exactly. I may have said the IS does not represent the totality of Islam but they sure are a slice of it.

  69. This definitely slows down response time.

    Damn I thought one long comment thread slowed it down.

    I think I have comments per page at 20. I’ll up it to 40. Short of that I can just stop breaking them up altogether.

  70. “Exactly. I may have said the IS does not represent the totality of Islam but they sure are a slice of it.”

    Do you consider it extremism or deviate behavior? What about the murders in Salem?

  71. “Should slavery have been allowed to run its course? If so, what’s your best guess as to how far past 1865 it would have lasted?”

    About another thirty years. After the first internal combustion engine was grafted to a plow, somewhere around 1892(?), slaves were simply obsolete farm machinery. Not PC, just true. They had no other skills.

  72. “But for some, “behave yourself” means “know your place”.”

    No, it means, “Take your place. Take your place as an adult male and behave responsibly, like everybody else, because they are all good and tired of taking up your fucking slack. Take your place in society; it is waiting for you to grow up and take it.”

    It also means, “Stop fucking around, pull up your pants and use some goddamned birth control, because I AM TIRED OF RAISING YOUR CHILDREN.”

    And turn your hat around. You look stupid.

    That’s what “behave yourself” means.

  73. About another thirty years. After the first internal combustion engine was grafted to a plow, somewhere around 1892(?), slaves were simply obsolete farm machinery. Not PC, just true. They had no other skills.

    And then what would have become of them?

  74. Tex you have a habit of discounting the nasty rhetoric of the OT by countering with the NT.

    I’ll challenge that. Give me one example because I say you’re lying, Rutherford. 😐 And the reason I know that is because I don’t think the OT has “nasty” rhetoric nor do I discount any of it. I’ll stand behind every bit of it.

    You have the really bad habit of attributing events to me that I’ve never said. You’ve also got an unlimited capability of ignoring charges and destruction of your mindset and never answering the challenge in return.

    Kim Jong Rutherford.

  75. I’m not lying Tex but I may be mistaken. I do know there have been discussions on this board where seriously wacked stuff from the OT has been brought up and the NT has been used to counter it. Maybe it wasn’t you. But you ignored the second part of my comment.

    The Quran as we know it today is in reality two quite different books. The older Quran was written in Mecca while the later Quran was written in Medina. This lead some scholars, both Muslim and non-Muslim, to refer to the Quran by its two parts, the Mecca Quran and the Medina Quran. Both were transcribed as told by Muhammad to a scribe, as Muhammad was illiterate as were a majority in his day. A majority of the Surah in the Quran were written in Mecca with the rest written in Medina. The problem is that the Surah in the Quran are not placed in chronological order, but are ordered as shown here, along with the city of origin of each Surah. This will have importance later in this article. By not ordering the Surah in their chronological order one must refer to the Hadiths and other Islamic texts to discern the original order as Muhammad received his visions from Allah. This added to the secretive mystery that was spun around the Quran making its reading less straightforward to non-Muslims.

    The Mecca Quran was all about tolerance, tranquility, spirituality, acceptance, and inner cleansing through submission to the word of Allah. …
    He had originally ruled that Muslims prayed facing Jerusalem, but the opposition from the Jews had him replace Jerusalem as the center of faith to Mecca. His newer revelations were more violent and had the Jews as the primary focus of this violence. This Medina Quran also incorporated much of the moral blessings of violence and caravan raiding taken from the Arab tribes who thrived on these ventures.

    Taken from http://beyondthecusp.wordpress.com/2007/08/10/which-quran-mecca-or-medina/

  76. I’ve changed the setting to 40 comments per page — hopefully that makes Rabbit less claustrophobic and Poolman less uncomfortable.

    By the way — check out the last comment on the prior post — it’s a beauty! LOL

  77. Parker, slaves did have other skills than farm work. My aunt knew a former slave when her parents spent a decade in North Carolina. The woman occupied a favored position. She worked in the house and helped manage the operation. Slaves were nannies and also helped manage family businesses.Owners trusted their slaves’ business acumen. Some had relative freedom of movement, and they were sometimes overseers. Owners also let slaves buy their freedom at times. Other blacks owned slaves too.

    i read a grad school term paper comparing basic training, slavery and the Nazi death internment camps.as they related to the Stockholm Syndrome. Human social and economic dynamics are complex.I don’t see any reason why a form of slavery might not still exist in America without an active effort to stop it, because other parts of the world still hold slaves.

    My professor must have thought I was sensing the truth. He gave me an A

  78. Muffy, according to our family genealogy, Hannah was subject to “fits” and she accused Elizabeth Howe of bewitching her. Her parents were Samuel and Ruth.They didn’t believe her at first, but Hannah persisted for two or three years. Her health deteriorated, so Samuel and Ruth were finally convinced, and they signed an affidavit for the case known as Province V. Elizabeth Howe. Hannah later died. Another source cited the family as one of Howe’s chief accusers. A couple of other family members served on the jury.I don’t remember their names, and I don’t have time to look them up this morning.. Another source did say that Samuel and Ruth served on the jury. Hannah was not listed as a principal accuser, maybe because she was not from Salem.

    The trial lapsed into mayhem at times. The afflicted girls moaned and cried when they saw Elizabeth Howe. The accused should have been the ones moaning and crying since conditions of their incarceration were unpleasant.

    Ironically, John Alden Jr. who was related to the family was accused of witchcraft, but friends helped him escape from jail. John Alden and Pricilla had a daughter who ,married one of my ancestors. Thus the family had connections on both sides of the trials.

    Samuel was a farmer who “farmed good land.” He took an oath of allegiance as a free man in Ipswich near his home. He was a member of the Topfield Church with “full communion.” Seat number three was assigned to him. Church records show that Samuel had “the right to make fire in our watch tower on Sabath Dayes at noon time as long as the towne see cause.” This tells me at least some of the accusers had social standing equal to or surpassing the alleged witches’ repute. As more socially prominent people faced charges, people began to question the process.

    The Salem area was suffering challenges at the time. Indian’s threatened their lives and property. Many new immigrants were moving in, and the originals felt threatened by newcomers with different life modes and beliefs. Discord between families through competition or dislike was becoming more intense.

    We regard the witchcraft trials as an aberration, but they are not. The motivation and emotional process which drove them are part of human nature. Christianity was the vehicle which drove the mob psycosis. I saw it when I turned in the Air Force bad guys, and I see it with continued attacks on Sarah Palin and on some attacks against Obama. In other societies they would have been killed for witch craft or buried in Danish bogs.

  79. Here is more from another source. ” the accusation of the (my family) is not a direct example of a when an ‘accused witch appeared to a witness. However, they did bring forth spectral evidence with the story of their daughter.Apparently she told her parents that when she went near fire or water, ‘this witch pulled her in.;” Rev Phillips of Rowley, Massachusetts witnessed a conversation between Hannah and Elizabeth. He said Hannah’s parents asked him to speak to Hannah. He went to Ipswich to “see their young daughter who was vested with strang fitts and in her fits as her father and mother affirmed did mention good wife Howe. How the wife of James Howe Junior of Ipswich as if she was in the house and did afflict her. When we were in the house the child had one of her fitts but made no mention of goodwife Howe., and when her fitt was over, she came to herself , goodwife Howe went to the child and took her by the hand and asked her whether she had ever done her any hurt. And she answered ‘no never., and if I complained of you in my fittts I don’t no that I did soe. I further can affirm upon oath that a brother to the afflicted girle looking out of a chamber window and say to his sister ‘say good wife Howe is a witch, say she is a witch’, and the child spake not a word that way, but I llkt up to the window where they both stood and rebuked him for his boldness to stirr up his sister to accuse the said good wife.” He blamed the brother of committing mischief.

    Another witness added that “upon seeing her mother spake to her with tartness she presently fell into one of her usual strange fitts, during which , ” she made no mention of Elizabeth Howe. One of the five women hanged with Elizabeth had the last name of Good I don’t know if she was related, but the name later shows up among family cousins.

  80. According the our family geneology, this man was a distant relative His last name spelling was one of the family variations, and he came from the same town some of my ancestors lived in. The song “My immortal” was written as the singer mourned her sister who had killed herself.

  81. “By the way — check out the last comment on the prior post — it’s a beauty! LOL”

    I’m pretty sure that was Pfessor. He used that icon before and it has ties to the shortwave/pirate radio scene which I know he has ties to.

  82. Rutherford comments worthy of rebuttal:
    No Alfie I experienced forced segregation not being allowed to be in class with non-disabled kids.
    Well although you’re intelligent enough I am actually an ardent supporter of putting the paste eaters in separate accommodations. You’re also changing the parameters of the discussion.So you were placed in a certain classroom but were you plucked from your neighborhood school and dumped in another?
    And then what would have become of them?

    You seem to discount that the war to preserve the Union was still going to happen and its outcome was what it was. Slavery running its course post the Civil War looked a lot like Parker states. The course of black America was set. A course that resulted in the Great Migration.

    Like I said Parker, context is everything. I might add that in a taxed society we all care for other people’s children.

    OMG the liberal is alive and well within Rutherford! Not just a nuance thing R you’re quite simply wrong. you might like to think the taxed care and that the politicians and technocrats actually do a good job but the truth is there to be seen. Whether its rural Ohio,Detroit or any of the burgeoning suburb exurb locales that are experiencing the poverty down swing.

    Extremism leads to deviant behavior.
    I find this to be deep semantics. Vice versa applies to that set. On the topic of Islamic extremism you’re off to a false start since who is a westerner to judge what is “extreme”. Where what is deemed extreme is obvious is it a deviant behavior? This seems to be a big bone of contention between the groups who debate Islam,terrorism,extremism and overall culture.
    Well supported volumes could be put forth that ISIL is one,both or none of the things. For example are they deviants? There are Islamic scholars who have said they are,that they are indeed not following Islam with their actions. Are they extremists? Seems a no brainer but are they really trying for a caliphate or just pure power and using religion as the ruse?

  83. I agree with alfie’s finding of semantics. The Bell curve defines extremes but without knowing the central baseline, we are at a loss. The norm varies with the time and culture. The weather service, for examples runs various scenarios called ensembles through computers, and some solutions deviate far from the norm established by the majority. Forecasters use the average which can tilt closer or farther from one extreme based on which program says what and on hunches. It doesn’t matter if they are trying for a caliphate, or pure power or if they use or don’t use religion as a ruse. They likely consider themselves to be as normal as we regard ourselves. People are like the ensembles. We reach an accommodation or one group will conquer the other..

  84. The Civil War began as a struggle between two economic and social systems. As the United States spread west, pioneers moved into dryer land which would not sustain southern agriculture or political power. The North was evolving into an economic power and agriculture played a diminishing role in its future. The war was about power and European maneuvering for an advantage. Slavery was at first, incidental, though it was a major point of contention.. Many southerners wanted to abolish slavery, but they were afraid the North would economically enslave them with a western wall they could not penetrate. Lincoln proclaimed slaves free as part of a war measure.

  85. Dallas has another Ebola patient, and doctors still aren’t sure why. Boris Johnson, the mayor of London said “its one of those cases where we are at risk of seeming to promise stuff that doesn’t really make any sense. You can’t blood test everybody coming into the country. The ided of screening it at airports is far from perfect as a solution.”

    Obama has promised “stuff that doesn’t really make any sense.” Johnson could have been describing Obama’s ISIS strategy.

  86. Correct me if I’m wrong Alfie but I think you’re saying that the line “Extremism leads to deviant behavior” is deep semantics. But your vice versa remark – are you saying that deviant behavior leads to extremism or that the question itself was one of deep semantics?

    I agree that a small percentage of non-muslims can accurately judge what is extreme to the teachings of Islam.

    “Well supported volumes could be put forth that ISIL is one,both or none of the things. For example are they deviants? There are Islamic scholars who have said they are,that they are indeed not following Islam with their actions. Are they extremists? Seems a no brainer but are they really trying for a caliphate or just pure power and using religion as the ruse?”

    That is the question.

  87. It’s a beautiful day, the windows are open, the marathoners are finishing up, and the sirens instantly create a sense of un-well-being at the thought, “that seems like a lot of sirens,” followed by a visit to the balcony. And a twinge of nostalgia.

  88. James you are a born educator but I was really looking just to place your precise connection to the prosecutions.

    I’m of the opinion that its challengeable to characterize the prosecutions as premiere example of “Christianity’s record for civil behavior [was not peachy keen].” I base that on a workable understanding of both Christianity and the Salem witch trials.

  89. “And the reason I know that is because I don’t think the OT has “nasty” rhetoric nor do I discount any of it. I’ll stand behind every bit of it.”

    That was my thought when I read R’s charge.

  90. The Quran as we know it today is in reality two quite different books. The older Quran was written in Mecca while the later Quran was written in Medina. This lead some scholars, both Muslim and non-Muslim, to refer to the Quran by its two parts, the Mecca Quran and the Medina Quran. Both were transcribed as told by Muhammad to a scribe, as Muhammad was illiterate as were a majority in his day.

    Well, not that it will mean anything to you nor change your mind, but the Bible didn’t need a “rewrite.” What you read today is what 1st/2nd Century Church fathers taught from which we can demonstrate and prove by their own writings. And unlike Mohammad, the Twelve Apostles were not only not illiterate, but would be considered quite literate by even today’s standards, being most were fluent in Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek. In fact, of the eleven martyred apostles that gave their own lives for the idea, at least eight that I’m aware apparently could also speak the native tongues of Egypt, Persia, India, Ethiopia, Rome, and in places as far as Germania and Britain.

    Oh, it’s been transcribed into hundreds of different languages – but the basic content remains the same.

    I guess the Islamists do have one thing over you, Rutherford. Even they don’t describe Jesus the Christ as ‘deluded’ but prophet. LOL Which can only mean one thing.

    It’s not The Christ that was deluded, but men like you – the biblically illiterate. 😛

  91. Nah Rabbit you read Crunk the wrong way. Look at the gravatar and notice he has a black eye. Now think again about who probably posted it. (The answer can also be found in this very thread.)

  92. Thanks Muffy, Others have told me that too.

    I agree. “its challengeable to characterize the prosecutions as premier example” of “Christianity’s record for civil behavior..” To do so is overly simplistic as I hinted. Personal conflicts and fears combined with tradition to unleash dark forces inside us all. I’d like to know why Hannah’s brother appeared to be egging her on. His motivation was not associated with religion.

    I believe the ISIS fanatics want to create a caliphate and as with the witch killers, more than religious motivation drives them..Religion is ancillary as slavery was to the Civil War.

    The Old and New Testaments were the recorded history which showed the evolution of people from a hunter-gatherer society to urban life. We have to read them in that context. Rutherford cited two Holy books of Islam The first was more tolerant than the first. I’m speculating. Could it be that the Muslims felt hostility and competition from Christians and Jews between the two books and they became more belicose with the second work? Was the writers’ reaction similar to what Ho Chi Ming did after the United States rebuffed his request for help to liberate his country from the French?

  93. James, just from the article I excerpted I got the sense that the “Medina” book was written after Mohamed got some pushback. It’s as though the peace love and understanding thing didn’t work so well so he went postal. Plus I suspect he was a bit deranged.

    My only purpose in posting the excerpt was to show that a reading of the Koran as evil and violent is simplistic and ignorant.

  94. Imagine Dragons “Demons” “When the days are cold and the cards all fold and the saints we see are made of gold
    When your dreams all fail and the ones we hail are the worst of all
    and the bloods run stale
    I want to hide the truth I want to shelter you
    But with the beast inside there’s nowhere we can hide.”

    Nothing would change if we all were atheists, though without religious moral restraints we would be meaner.

  95. “To do so is overly simplistic as I hinted.”

    Simplistic implies extremism. I don’t think Rutherford’s conclusions are simplistic, I think they are misled.

    Interesting closing remark James! (“Nothing would change…”)

  96. Muffy I find that the question set is fungible in some ways. Extremist actions are often only subjectively depraved if you bring a harsh honesty to it.
    I don’t imagine the faithful in the thread will take kindly to this but it is an undeniable truth that regardless of any nobility one finds in a religion,especially the Abrahammics ,they were always and forever meant to be a tool to control the masses.

  97. I’d say what’s truly wearing is just how smoothly “other religions” or “all religions” are lumped in with little to support whatever contention is being made when Islam is the subject. And not so much when the shoe is on another foot (and one not standing on anyone’s neck.)

  98. Muffy I get that but that’s not really the position I’m taking here so. I will say that at its heart my point especially in this thread is “why is the subject Islam”?

  99. Muffy I think my main problem is when all 1 billion people get condemned for the beliefs of 10%. Now 100 million people is a lot of fucking crazy people but we should take care not to mischaracterize the 900 million.

    It would also help if the 90% would condemn and crush the 10%.

    I naturally disagree with James that morality is the exclusive territory of organized religion.

  100. I don’t remember. Reviewing comments is not so easy anymore I’m sorry to say. As best I recall it was Pfesser’s article. Rutherford quoting himself in response to some response to the article perhaps.

  101. I don’t remember. Reviewing comments is not so easy anymore I’m sorry to say. As best I recall it was Pfesser’s article. Rutherford quoting himself in response to some response to the article perhaps.

    Actually, Alfie used the word “reformation” with respect to Islams immediate future and by coinkydink I found an old quote of mine relating to the same thing that I tossed back into the mix here.

  102. This is the OBVIOUS way to stop Ebola.

    1. Drop Enola on Ebola … drop a few precisely targeted nukes on the 3 western African countries and radiate that bastard virus to death.
    2. Anyone stateside who tests positive for Ebola (not the prelim positive but the definitive diagnosis) is immediately euthanized and cremated.

    Problem solved.

  103. @ Rutherford your comment about the two books Islam thing….
    Islam is the quintessential example for the religion and control thing. Think like the secular atheist thing you claim to be.
    Mo looking to unite people who are all chunked up in tribes and stuff. You then unite a crowd and crowds like to grow. Did Mohammed or his handlers and peers really care about forming a faith? Or were they all about conquest and defense as was typical of the era?
    Those questions are dumped on the heap given the historically supported realites.i say they need not be and that in many corners still form the foundations of an actual religion that isn’t an issue unless you really want to make it one.

  104. “Muffy I think my main problem is when all 1 billion people get condemned for the beliefs of 10%. Now 100 million people is a lot of fucking crazy people but we should take care not to mischaracterize the 900 million.”

    You have another problem in that you struggle to come up with support for your own “all religions” positing. You’re getting an awful lot of mileage on 20 deaths over 300 years ago while on average gang violence wipes out as many every 20 days in Chicago, the sociology of group mentality being what it is.

  105. “Actually, Alfie used the word “reformation” with respect to Islams immediate future and by coinkydink I found an old quote of mine relating to the same thing that I tossed back into the mix here.”

    Yah and Alfie was referring to the article. What are you disagreeing with? The question was “why is the subject Islam”?

    Is anyone else getting booted to the previous page of comments trying to get here either by clicking on recent comments or immediately following make a comment?

  106. Yes Alfie, tongue firmly planted in cheek.

    On a more serious note how do we know for sure we’re not dealing with a mutated virus? I’m not in a panic but I don’t fully trust the CDC either.

  107. Rutherford, I don’t believe morality is the exclusive territory of organized religion. I believe religious people can alter their attitudes and values to at least give lip service to teachings of which ever religion they accept. They can become less evil to their enemies than without religion. For example, Christians, in the UK and United States were primary campaigners against slavery. That is what I meant when I wrote that nothing would change if we were all atheists except that we would be less mean

    .Sometimes, religion can make people even more nasty, but I think the tendency is for softening rough edges.

    Even dogs have a sense of fairness and morality. I believe morality is built into our genes because it has survival value. Ultimately, humans didn’t invent religions to control others. Their genes did. Atheists are some of the most religious people i know because they listen to their genes.

    Nuking the Ebola areas and ISIS is a great idea, and it would work. Even better would be a radiation bomb which would leave the infrastructure intact.The government did it in “No Blade of Grass.” On the other hand, it isn’t very Christian or atheist to suggest such a plan, is it?.Ha Ha!

  108. You’re getting an awful lot of mileage on 20 deaths over 300 years ago while on average gang violence wipes out as many every 20 days in Chicago.

    And I’d submit most of these gang bangers self identify as Christian. I’m not sure I see your point. Are you drawing a parallel that Muslim violence is as much a consequence of group mentality as Chicago gangs?

  109. Is anyone else getting booted to the previous page of comments trying to get here either by clicking on recent comments or immediately following make a comment?

    Yes, it has happened to me. WP’s page targeting with respect to comments is totally fubar.

    Unless someone screams Nooooooo, before I go to bed I’m eliminating the comment split. It causes more problems than it solves and makes following conversation flow more difficult.

  110. On a related note to my last comment, the stats show inner city parents trying to get their kids (k thru 5) into the best programs available. Shines a hopeful light that at least some blacks ARE striving for better.

    My wife is totally disgusted by this book I’m reading. She accused me last night of spouting Fox News propaganda. LOL

  111. “And I’d submit most of these gang bangers self identify as Christian.”

    Wait. Before you go to bed. . .

    Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

    Gang bangers carrying out murder in the name of Christianity. Good one.

    I bet the majority of “these gangbangers” self identify as Obama supporters too.

  112. Gang bangers carrying out murder in the name of Christianity. Good one.

    I’m not making that ridiculous claim. First, I’m trying to understand Muffy’s point. She brought Chicago thugs into the discussion. However, secondly, Christianity has failed to tame the savage beast in these cases so I might argue exposing a Chicago thug to Christianity does about as much good as exposing him to Islam.

    In fact, doesn’t Islam have a pretty good track record of positively influencing prison inmates? Another good question for Rabbit who worked with young offenders.

    Hey Rabbit get back here. There’s a whole queue of questions waiting for you to tackle.

  113. Okay, R. You deserve more credit. I was quick on the draw.

    I think Muffy;s point was nowhere close to what you were responding to, but I’ll let e speak to it herself.

    As for Muslims taming inmates, what the hell are you talking about?

  114. Just give me some examples of religious extremism that corresponds to the nature of Islamic jihad, consistent with 10% of its followers.

  115. “As for Muslims taming inmates, what the hell are you talking about?”

    The tamed inmates, the 2 books, the witches, the Amish beards – clearly Islam, Christianity, and other religions are all the same, dummy.

  116. “Shines a hopeful light that at least some blacks ARE striving for better.

    My wife is totally disgusted by this book I’m reading. She accused me last night of spouting Fox News propaganda.”

    Honest people should not fear exposure to opposing views. They should seek it out. If those on the other side turn out to be wrong, it strengthens your position. If they turn out to be right, it gives one the enviable opportunity to rid oneself of incorrect ideas.

  117. Muffy when you frame it that way you win hands down. I Don’t buy the 10% number it doesn’t pass math reality muster for me. The different types of jihad especially the outward warring one in the modern era are without equal except for 20thcentury Zionism . Of course one could say part and parcel of some of that is secularism and shallowness of the modern Chrisrian world. Free will is a fickle bitch. It allows both the for and against Christianity types an out.

  118. I don’t imagine the faithful in the thread will take kindly to this but it is an undeniable truth that regardless of any nobility one finds in a religion,especially the Abrahammics ,they were always and forever meant to be a tool to control the masses.

    I think this is so borderline simplistic and slanted, it borders on Rutherford simpletonism. The entire concept of Christianity is one of “free will.”

    And that 10% number? I would say the results are much, much closer to the inverse.

    World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
    32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
    41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
    38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
    83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
    62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
    42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
    A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
    (Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
    About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

    • Documented survey data and links…sources to numerous to list
  119. Simplistic implies extremism. I don’t think Rutherford’s conclusions are simplistic, I think they are misled.

    I don’t think it’s misled. I think it is malicious and meant to demean and marginalize. Rutherford’s religion is one of Leftism – whether he realizes it or not. And Christianity gets in the way of the Leftist narrative and mission – the polar opposite of Rutherford in message.

    That’s why I don’t feel the least bit guilty about hammering the blog host, even with Pfesser’s pedantic policing. Frankly, if Christianity were guilty of 1% of what Rutherford charges, it would be a gutter religion. The fact that some butcher like George Tiller was gunned down in the name of Christianity is so rare, we actually remember the name of the murdered.

    Notice how Rutherford ignores the real barbarism and results of his own basic precepts of hate of religion – specifically the Judeo Christian faith? Good grief, where do we start with the well documented slaughter, the unmitigated failure, the tyranny, and the lack of any established works of lasting value by Rutherford’s mindset?

    The comparison could not be more stark.

  120. Damn, Tex too much drama. I don’t HATE religion. I’m not a fan of those who proclaim faith and then ignore some of its most positive precepts (e.g. Falwell, Jim and Tammy Faye).

    You think I insult Christ by my attempt to fit him into what for me is a rational historical perspective. I mean no insult at all.

    Honest question: are you influenced by CS Lewis or did you come to the same conclusions independently? You’ve cited him many times over the years.

  121. There’s a big difference, Slack, between hammering the blog host’s ideas and hammering his physical disabilities.

    Yup. Rabbit is right: Class. Real class.

  122. Rutherford you are correct that the polls embrace are indeed suspect. For example when people were asked about attacks on Americans the ones showing the highest ratings are about attacks on US military in Islamic countries. Now westerners and Americans take great umbrage to this and understandably so. My position is that the number isn’t irrational or illogical though and as such not indicative of extremism.
    The notion that there are 100 million islamic combatants is illogical and lacks any credibility.

  123. Tex I included a nice shot at free will in a follow up comment. To say the Abrahammics were not created and definitely embraced as control tools of the masses is plain ignorant.
    The masses were given an opiate and it made them pliable in countless historical points other times their core belief system was twisted and used for goals others wanted to achieve.
    Now before you have a freaking stroke I’ll repeat here and now something I’ve said a number of times. People of faith have done countless great things in pursuit of their faith.

  124. The notion that there are 100 million islamic combatants is illogical and lacks any credibility.

    Well I’m relieved Alfie. I read you the opposite way in your earlier comment to suggest many MORE than 100 million were radicalized.

    Where would you place the number?

  125. Tex I don’t hate religion but I’ll tell you what does piss me off.

    The first doctor to be successfully treated for Ebola in the US had a press conference where in front of the doctors WHO SAVED HIS LIFE, he thanked God for his recovery. I’m putting myself in the shoes of the medical staff and thinking “countless sleepless nights and thousands upon thousands of dollars of training to get me to the expertise to save your life and you’re thanking God, you motherfucking ingrate.”

    But that’s the least of my anger. What REALLY burns me is the insensitivity. 4000 dead in west Africa. And this self centered asshole thinks God saved him while forsaking the 4000 Africans?

    The fact that you can’t understand my rage Tex demonstrates why these exchanges are fruitless.

  126. Yes, all organized religions are meant to control people. The ‘Christian movement’ was organized into a religion during the early 4th century under Constantine. It stopped much of the persecution that was happening to the religious ‘sect’. Other factions of ‘the movement’ (the Gnostics, for example) were banished along with their sacred writings in the effort to mainstream this new religion and meld it with the pagan ritual and cultural myth of the day. Christianity became homogenized and thereby less than radical. Much was lost to history until modern discovery, like the one in 1945 when the Nag Hammadi codices were found.

    I have read some interesting research pointing to Judaics having written the Koran. That’s controversial and difficult to prove, but does offer a different perspective into history if true. The OT is not written in a chronological order of events. I understand Job to be the oldest book included, though it is number 18 starting from Genesis. The Bible has also been arranged and rearranged to include some texts in some translations and not in others. A modern translation by Scofield changed meanings and distorted much of the OT interpretation. Those distortions were exploited and fortified until now most of organized Christianity in this country accepts those modern interpretations as truth.

  127. I’ll settle for less than 10%. Examples of religious extremism that corresponds to the nature of Islamic jihad.

    Because proclaiming faith and then ignoring some of its most positive precepts doesn’t fucking cut it.

  128. There ought to be oodles of examples especially generating from “the US, the land of perpetual christian jihad,” according to at least one unchallenged statement made last thread.

    What was you saying about mischaracterizations?

    Because after all, the free will out and Jefferson’s wall keeps those teevee preachers in line and everybody’s head remains attached.

  129. There’s a big difference, Slack, between hammering the blog host’s ideas and hammering his physical disabilities.

    Well Pavlov, the drunk. You’re still barking up the wrong tree about why I called Rutherford, Gollum. But you’ve become so damn irrelevant around here, who cares?

  130. The fact that you can’t understand my rage Tex demonstrates why these exchanges are fruitless.

    The fact Pfesser Pavlov can’t find why I find you such a pathetic little man, to be enraged at a white doctor who put his own life on the line for no self gain to save poor black men – black men who you could care less about it and have never done a damn thing for, does indeed make these exchanges fruitless. You and I simply differ who is the real ingrate here.

  131. @Rutherford defining the group is important therefore word choice matters.
    You bring up “radicalized” this is an important word and concept for the discussion.
    Also key is a perspective of jihad. The basics are the personal level,the defensive warring and the whole kill kill kill stuff. The last group is the ones you really have to worry about,the middle one offers fertile ground for exploitation.
    Last thing for a basic grok on the number requires an appreciation for true motives and how some of the true numbers play with that.

  132. Now before you have a freaking stroke I’ll repeat here and now something I’ve said a number of times. People of faith have done countless great things in pursuit of their faith.

    No, I’m definitely not going to get apoplectic about your statement when you’re quoting Karl Marx to defend your own position of historical perspective, Alfie. I just think once again, it demonstrates how profoundly ignorant the perception of the intent, purpose and mission in the secular community of anything pertaining to Christianity – or perhaps a better way to say it was that you too, like Rutherford, find nothing spiritually divine about any religion, believing it all man made. I’m not here to proselytize – simply to point out the weakness of these humanistic arguments. The Bible is a template of how to live fully – not some strict set of laws to be used as a hammer with God posing as Cosmic Rapist, though I apologize for occasionally ruffling the feathers of using the promises as a hammer – that’s my own weakness, not Christ’s. I believe that hammer is far better represented by Sharia than anything of Holy Christian writ.

    I find your own opinion about religion as misguided as I do Huck’s claim that Muslims believe Allah is the same as Elohim. Really? Then why are Jews and Christians considered the infidel and the ultimate insult to Allah? Why do Christians and Jews more than any other need to be exterminated or convert with penalty if we all are worshiping the same God? That’s a question apparently any defender of Islam can’t seem to answer for me.

    Yours is just the secular perspective of the same argument, without the threats or demands. This debate of man made religion has been going on for at least 2,000 years and that is not going to change until the end of days. As I have pointed out many times here, your questions are only poignant when one realizes men like Rutherford and possibly you deny God’s existence. I find thpse types materialists to the core. Everything, including their own existence–which is, by definition, meaningless in the long run–is the result of an infinite number of cosmic coin flips. So I am asked/forced to choose between this Darwinian Universe and the universe Jesus represents.

    I honestly believe people like Rutherford and Pfesser Pavlov stare into an abyss of their own making and are horrified if they were truly honest; or in the case of Rutherford, he’s not mature enough to even stare and give consideration. And since I truly believe they are blind to what I find most obvious, all they can do is try to visit that horror on the rest of us instead of stepping away from the precipice. I can live with that. What I can’t live with are the malicious lies and innuendo that accompany these claims.

    I’m more than happy to let this play out without further debate to let future events dictate to you as personal witness how incredibly wrong you are about that this nonsense of Islam being basically peace loving; that is, as long as you don’t endanger my own family and interfere with the purpose of our military in the process. Being I find you a pretty good sort, I certainly don’t wish harm to come to you and yours either, even when I have concluded your misconceptions/misperceptions are possibly endangering all of us.

  133. Alfie, without you there IS no dialogue. But to help you out, I’m talking directly to Rutherford.

    Why do you need not to jump into others’ dialog though? There has to be something besides griping about ungrateful people back from the brink being humbled by the experience.

  134. Rutherford how many Christians do you know? And how do you know that the ones on the teevee aren’t grateful to the doctors and nurses?

    I spent last Friday with one. She brought the oncology staff plates of food and thoughtfully selected cards for each one of them expressing her love and gratitude on her last day of radiation treatment for the third time. She waited for each one – from Donna who checks her in to Dr. Schultz who always hugs her hello to Josh who helps her fasten her mask – to find a moment to take a selfie with her so that she could take them out and turn the pages when she needed to call to mind that they mean to save her life.

    But you wouldn’t know about that because there were no teevee cameras to show it to you.

    By the way, she also thanked God at dinner that night. We all did, bunch of motherfucking ingrates.

  135. As a follow up Alfie I would go so far as to say that you and Tex are the only ones having a meaningful dialog here right now. Or at least a serious one.

  136. “That’s a question apparently any defender of Islam can’t seem to answer for me.”

    It isn’t a misguided claim, it’s a fact. I’ll give you the 30-second version of an answer, because I have no interest in wasting more time than that to educate someone not willing to learn.

    One of the infidel issues comes from the way God is worshiped. Pick up a history book for other examples of conflict over the same thing.

    And then, of course, there’s the whole polytheism thing that Christians have going on.

  137. Tex let me attempt clarification since you think my intent is insult.

    While I’m not sold on the existence of an intervening God I can at least UNDERSTAND the following:

    Africans thanking God for the missionary services trying to save them.

    The Ebola stricken doctor thanking God that he comes from a country where his life could be saved.

    What bothered me was he made NO mention of the hospital staff who saved his life. Also he could have said “I thank God for my cure and I ask His continued mercy on those less fortunate than I back in Africa”.

    But he didn’t say that. He made it sound like God was his personal body guard. Sorry Tex, that just ain’t a mature take on religion.

  138. There has to be something besides griping about ungrateful people back from the brink being humbled by the experience.

    You border on stupidity. Thinking you are the beneficiary of a God given cure while thousands die is about as far from humility as you can get.

  139. And how do you know that the ones on the teevee aren’t grateful to the doctors and nurses?

    I can only go on what the man SAID. I can’t get into his mind or heart. What he said was insensitive.

  140. As a follow up Alfie I would go so far as to say that you and Tex are the only ones having a meaningful dialog here right now. Or at least a serious one.

    Mmm did I forget to say fuck you Muffy?

  141. Just in case I wasn’t clear. I am fully behind Alfie in the good these Christian groups do. Had the doctor not come off a self-centered asshole I would have been a big fan. These folks are clearly risking their own health to save others. How can one not appreciate that?

  142. And … MUFFY … the statement about the Salem Witch trials was not intended to make modern Christianity equivalent to modern Islam. The notion was simply that Islam is the younger religion and perhaps has some “maturing” to do. I think I quoted a 300 year age difference.

  143. But why take my word for it…let’s refer to the text…

    “And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).” ” Quran 29:46

    Of course, you could also just ask any Muslim what they believe.

    Another point worth mentioning is the saying “There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger.” It is the first Pillar of Islam. It must be recited by everyone that wants to be recognized as a Muslim.

    That Muhammad is his messenger is a matter of faith. If someone doesn’t believe that, then they are a disbeliever. They are an infidel.

    Take a look at your own opinions of Mormons for an example of how one can claim to pray to the same god, but not be accepted as a believer because they don’t agree on his last messenger.

    This really isn’t that complicated to figure out, provided one actually WANTS to figure it out. It’s long since become clear that you don’t.

  144. “And this self centered asshole thinks God saved him while forsaking the 4000 Africans?” R

    LOL……

    The guy is willing to give his life by helping the most forgotten souls on Earth and the silly atheist Rutherford is attacking him over what he decided to say after he got out of the hospital with fucking Ebola.

    Oh yeah….the doctor also said be wants to go back to help.

    Can you imagine if the while world was populated with only Rutherfords?

  145. It isn’t a misguided claim, it’s a fact. I’ll give you the 30-second version of an answer, because I have no interest in wasting more time than that to educate someone not willing to learn.

    Really? And yet for all that high falutin’ higher education you hang your hat, I’ve got more in far more higher education in more difficult subjects than you do which were most definitely not innate. For instance, which subjects that require higher level mathematics do you wish to discuss, giant? Calculus, Physics, Chemistry, or Finance? Or should we take a stroll through the very first post I saw you provide as the Red Pill in Economics 101? What is really going to cook your noodle is me finding about the same level of depth in your “academic expertise” of history, theology and comparative religion, giant.

    Now for someone like me not interested in learning, I wonder if this second glaring falsehood in claim will register in that “brilliant” mind of yours?

    One of the infidel issues comes from the way God is worshiped. Pick up a history book for other examples of conflict over the same thing.

    They give China and Russia and their nation of atheists who choose not to worship at all a virtual pass, yet now singularly focus their ‘peace loving’ outrage toward first Jews, then Christians; and if these religion of peace types need the weapons and the dough, Islamists of a different sect. Did you obtain your Masters in Vague or Misdirection? You search for the reasons of which I doubt you can explain, never finding it. Perhaps I will take the time to explain to you when I feel like it, though I might make the same claim of ‘uninterested.’

    And then, of course, there’s the whole polytheism thing that Christians have going on.

    Only an uneducated buffoon in comparative religion grounded in the humanistic would call Christianity polytheistic. I know, I know. Here, let me fill in your next sentence. We aren’t discussing what Christians think and my reading comprehension skills are in question. Your more predictable than Rutherford in response, being you’ve practically boilerplated the same answers for 18 months now. Zzzzzz.

    So you going to tell me the Mohammadians don’t worship Mohammad? Something akin to somebody like you would define as polytheistic? And if you answer no, then perhaps you can explain to me why are the religion of pieces is cutting off the heads of cartoonists for cartooning the caricature of “The Prophet’ and issuing fatwas on journalists like Salmon Rushdie who insult the prophet? These certainly have no problem letting the Pfesser/Rutherford types insult anybody of religious persuasion. Isn’t Jesus too a prophet in your favorite religion? Seen any fatwas issued recently for insulting Jesus by the religion of pieces? No, I didn’t think so.

    Like I said, your well grounded in the morally bankrupt and vacuous nature of philosophical, secular education. So is Obama. Congratulations – you’re more alike than you might want to admit.

  146. But he didn’t say that. He made it sound like God was his personal body guard. Sorry Tex, that just ain’t a mature take on religion.

    I would cede your point as I chastised my own sister and wife of a Baptist preacher for making the same admission once when her life was spared while others weren’t, courtesy of a crazed madman with a gun by asking over a Thanksgiving meal, “Wasn’t God looking out for them too?” That created a family brouhaha of sorts.

    No, I don’t think that is a mature position to take either because that leaves the impression of partiality and discounts the real power of God. I don’t believe spares Christians of the physical realities anymore than He would any unbeliever, unless He tells you first Himself He will do so.

    But that’s not my problem with your outrage. Could I not take you to task for the same thing you make accusation? Where is your focus? Is it on the good works, risk and clear sacrifice of the medical profession motivated by their faith, or the claims of divine intervention? And how do you know the doctor didn’t thank the hospital staff personally?

    Face it, Rutherford. You go seeking out any weakness you can find by Christians which is motivated by your hatred of Christianity and your intent to marginalize it. That, I do consider driven by the supernatural because you are clearly aligned against the claims of the God of the Christian faith, even if you deny the most obvious. Your ploy is to marginalize the infallible God by trying to conflate the fallible flock as representation of the infallible God to discount the faith, when I have told you a multitude of times the mature position of a Christian is to admit that it is not just difficult to meet the wishes of Christ, but impossible. Still, those imperfect people are motivated to act on the most unselfish of reasons because of the most basic tenets of following the example of Christ. And that is the mature act of a Christian.

    When you can show me any Christian making claims of perfection, I will join you in calling them liar and fool. Until then, I simply believe your main motive is to cast dispersions not so much on the people, but the entire faith. What I don’t know for sure is as to your motivation, though I believe I can fairly speculate: political expediency and a lifetime of bigotry.

  147. Tex I can only judge any religion by its physical manifestation on Earth. The Christians that get the biggest headlines don’t impress me too much. Yet I know there are lots of Christians of lesser publicity who are excellent representatives of their faith. One religious figure who impresses me (and I’m guessing disappoints you) is the new Pope.

    And I will readily testify that the best covered Muslims, the Jihadists, make the worst modern day Christian look like a saint. There’s no denying that.

  148. The guy is willing to give his life by helping the most forgotten souls on Earth and the silly atheist Rutherford is attacking him over what he decided to say after he got out of the hospital with fucking Ebola.

    Let me put this in a way you can understand.

    The day Tex gives all thanks to God for his smart successful daughters is the day I hope his wife kicks him right in the ass.

  149. Now Rabbit — if you’re saying “cut the guy some slack for sounding like an asshole fresh from the biggest medical scare of his life”, there you may have me.

    Tex is right in this. I judge self professed Christians harshly, perhaps too harshly. Since I sense hypocrisy from the get-go, my ears are attuned to it and I may fire an unwarranted shot now and again.

  150. Tex you have completely misread me and have mounted a defense against something I have not aimed at you. I don’t know whether your passion blinds you or you’ve seriously just misunderstood what I’ve put to the floor.
    Organized religion as to the extent that it is man made has been a tool for control of the people. I unknowingly used a quote from Marx,I honestly embraced the quote from a song name of a punk rock band out of Boston back in the day.
    As for me being secular….I’m not and I by no means a humanist. I actually believe in Jesus Christ and was raised a Baptist. I just fervently hold humans tarnish the teachings and thats being polite. I know in the past you spoke of being “unchurched” and having experienced hypocrites in the pews I imagine you’ve met them at the altar too. Well thats where I am. My Path is mine and I don’t need money grabbers and cult lite nutters trashing it. That said when I see things like the Catholic Church Inc. and the pedophile scandal and think of the pre Vatican II rules ostracizing non-catholics,as well as tons of other dogma, doctrine, and catechism nonsense yeah I speak out.
    Dp I think Jesus Christ moves churches and individuals? Not to get into a personal thing let me just say I don’t think it happens I know it happens.That you don’t get that from blog thread conversation isn’t your fault but there it is.
    I’m not playing now nor did I ever with Elric @ my place the x=y thing. I have always tried to strive for a level of logic and appreciation for perspectives from the other side and not from my USA,Anglo,Christian male perspective. So when I say something about Islam its secondary to more than a little deliberation.

    One last thing. In Islam Christians and Jews are not the low life form you state they are. They are in fact much higher than everything else on the planet . Also the absolute worse and total infidel in Islam is the one who has heard and still chooses to shun. Not quite the same as an apostate type of denial more of everything else about you says you’re a muslim and you still say no kind of thing.
    As for your observation about the US and Israel as opposed to how Russia and China are viewed I’d invite you to track down some of the Cold War stuff that doesn’t get a lot of play in the USA for some reason. Many Islamic nations were engaged purely due to the godlessness of the commies. Also if I find the link I know of a site that has some awesome examples of propaganda that was used to fuel the Afghan people in the days of the Soviet invasion. WoW! the stuff was intense and sadly prescient.

  151. The day Tex gives all thanks to God for his smart successful daughters is the day I hope his wife kicks him right in the ass.

    But I do. My wife is the strong, virtuous woman continually reminding me to be thankful for our blessings. In fact, I would say she’s probably the best example I know of somebody who quietly and humbly walks the Christian walk – even one you might admire. Perhaps you should read Proverbs 31? It’s practically a miracle I ended up with some gal like her. She can actually bridle her tongue unlike moi. 😛

    It would be presumptuous of me to take credit for my children’s successes. My wife and I attempted to provide the most conducive environment with two loving, actively involved parents – probably not too terribly different than what your wife and you provide. But the achievement in academic success is secondary. I’m far more proud, do I dare say blessed, that my children are simply well adjusted kids with a positive outlook on life and an understanding of important things that generally exceeds their years. For what it is worth, it has been my experience loved children rise to meet their parents expectations if those expectations are reasonable.

    Rutherford, it would be a pathetic commentary on my behalf to treat the God of Jews and Christians alike as some good luck charm like some cheap TV Evangelist. Those Pharisees are the worst form of hypocrites and in fact, not the unbelievers like you but the hypocrites like them and sometimes me that provoked Christ’s most dire warnings. I can’t vouch for what all people calling themselves Christian do. I have some sympathy with moderate Muslims, as I am positively sure they are mortified at what is done in the name of their religion. I know I am.

  152. Alfie,

    I have been sincere in my debate with you that while we my hold a differing opinion concerning a great many subjects, you’ve never been on “my list of the lost” and in fact, I generally find you quite reasonable and interesting. I believe I told you one time all of us would be better off if more of us tempered ourselves like you do. I could learn a thing or two from your and James’ approach. Pfesser was correct in that accusation.

    If I misunderstood you and your positions, I apologize.

    However, while I may be “unchurched” in the traditional sense, I also spend a fair amount of time in personal study, still spending each Sunday and sometimes more listening to what I consider the world’s greatest theologians teach either by internet or radio, usually 2-3 hours. Seldom a day goes by that I’m not reading something of Christian theology and Apologetics. And I’m only “unchurched” within the traditional church walls and left the traditional church not so much because of the hypocrisy and politic, but because I felt my own spiritual growth had stagnated and the disgust at the unserious nature of how I perceived some of the worship was facilitated.

    Like my own wise mother once answered to me upon my own charges of church hypocrisy interfering with my involvement, “Tex, what better place for those hypocrites to be then?”

  153. All that being the case Tex I do hope you give your wife her due even if she is guided by The Lord.

    P.S. As I was typing “by The Lord” my iPhone autocorrected it to “by Tigre”. I’m not kidding.

  154. All that being the case Tex I do hope you give your wife her due even if she is guided by The Lord.

    Of course I do. I give the credit to my wife for being a good mom and she is. I give the credit to the Lord for making it all possible. 😉

  155. That is interesting that you were raised in a baptist church, Alfie. My wife was also raised baptist and was saved at seven. Love those old hymns. Baptists are a pretty large majority throughout Texas. I wasn’t aware they had much of a following in MA, but really never gave it much thought. I’ve been to numerous baptist churches over the years. There are different baptist sects. First, second, southern, primitive – some that come to mind. They always have an altar call. They generally fall in the ‘once saved, always saved’ camp. If you make that profession of faith in Jesus and follow through by getting submerged in public, you obtain your ‘get out of hell free card’. No dancing, drinking, or otherwise cavorting from there on out, either. You’ll consume a healthy diet of OT fire and brimstone as sermon, as well as NT bible verses for all ages to promote spiritual growth. Usually there is certain required conformity of belief and habit.

    I was raised catholic and was an altar boy. The organized churches all have their share of truth, but often it comes with shackles. I don’t believe in any one size fits all philosophy, since we are all unique and should each has a unique tie to our creator.

    As for the statement that Jews and Muslims don’t pray to the same G-d, there are really two schools of thought on that. The majority believe that they worship the same entity. It has long been okay for Jews to worship in a Mosque.

    The Rambam not only defends Islam as pure monotheism consistent with the Jewish view of the Oneness of God, but he also defends the rituals of the Islamic Hajj (Hebrew: Chag) as having absolutely no polytheistic origins, as it had been popular in the West to assert (a lie which continues today in Christian anti-Islamic polemic).

    The intentional deception has been fed to the west, giving us a distortion of reality. The modern confirmation of the real historical truth is from this writing:

    In response to concerned traveler who feels he can’t concentrate on prayers at airport, Rabbi Efrati says ‘best option’ is to go to Muslim house of prayer.

    “It would be better to pray in a mosque and do so with meaning and after the sun rises, rather than at home, at dawn or at the airport and without meaning,” Rabbi Baruch Efrati determined recently in a response posted on the Kipa website recently.

    The surprising ruling came in response to a question posed by a web surfer living abroad who travels frequently for work purposes: “Most of the time the flights leave very early in the morning. I manage to put on tefilin at home after daybreak, but I don’t have time to wait until I can complete morning prayers,” he stated.

    “On the other hand, if I pray at the airport – I feel extremely uncomfortable, because people stare and I find it hard to focus on my prayers.”

    He wished to know how to act – and Rabbi Efrati had a surprising response: “Some airports in Europe and Asia have mosques, and they are usually empty of people who are not praying and so it is quiet,” he noted and suggested that the traveler inquire at the airport.

    “Of course, this solution isn’t perfect,” the rabbi added, “but it is the best option. There is no prohibition on praying in mosques (apart for the Ran’s – Rabbi Nissim ben Reuven ruling, which was not accepted).”

    Rabbi Efrati noted that an example was the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, which has a mosque.

    Either way, the rabbi ruled that if the traveler has trouble praying with meaning in the airport – he shouldn’t pray there. In addition, he stressed that praying in churches was completely and strictly forbidden. In fact, it is forbidden to step into a church, he said.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4016144,00.html

    Muslims may also worship in a church, though for Jews it is forbidden to go into a church. Muslims, as a whole, are much more tolerant of the Christian faith than Jews are. Jews consider Christians idolaters. Muslims honor Jesus as a prophet, though not savior or God in the flesh. Jews have made Him to be a deceiver and devil, supposedly boiling eternally in excrement. I don’t think we serve the same Master.

  156. R – I think someone here has mentioned that, due to unchecked muslim immigration and rampant, militant PC, Sweden – once the model of Western culture and gracious living, has become the rape capital of Europe. There are over 50 “no-go zones” – designated as such by the Swedish police – you couldn’t make this stuff up – where Westerners are told they will receive no police protection, and any non-muslim woman is, literally and metaphorically, fucked.

    What are your thoughts?

  157. Yesterday was my birthday, this evening, I chair a meeting, 40 minutes from Omaha, and on Friday, I drive home for a few hours to be interviewed for a Sioux City television feature. Part of my birthday gift is a day at a pumpkin patch amusement site with my wife and grand daughter while the parents are at work.

    Most ways to get rid of a problem like Obama are illegal or immoral.

    I am a Methodist. I rarely attend church, though my wife was church organist at our dead church and now is playing at a new one. Many of my ancestors were deists. I believe we are equivalent to college students. We are on our own,and as with God, we usually communicate with our parents, we are asking for something. I do believe Jesus died for our sins. As with Guess Who, I have ‘No Time.”

  158. Muslims, as a whole, are much more tolerant of the Christian faith than Jews are.

    That’s some fine CAIR propaganda there you provided, Poolman. When is the last time we heard of a Christian having his head lopped off by a Jewish Sect? Or genocide being issued by fatwa to kill all the Christians by the hand of Jews? And I have not only attended a synagogue as Christian on numerous occasions, but have been invited and in attendance at Four Bar Mitzvahs. That doesn’t seem to jive with your claims you provided, Poolman. Who can I direct my questions to?

    This last Sunday, I listened to a dynamite sermon by perhaps the most renowned, Southern Baptist trained theologian currently ongoing. While I listened to that sermon, Poolman, I could not help but reflect on you and your take – you’re one of many I know that calls themselves Christian, yet would read to take great delight in the persecution of Israel. The sermon concerned Revelation 12, and was titled under a series called Agents of the Apocalypse. Perhaps you should listen to this series. It might provide some real insight and and possibly epiphany of a sort for you? That is, if you really believe in all this hullabaloo and “myth.”

    Revelation 12 is preceded by the more well know 144,000 Messianic missionaries who will minister to what remains in the last days. In Revelation 12, which is clearly representing the State of Israel, war is waged against Israel by Satan and his disciples, accompanied by many of the machines of war of this earth. And it became very clear to me upon reflection of the entire chapter, that in this particular prediction of prophecy, Israel is protected by the Almighty though suffers much suffering.

    Poolman, I’m just wondering which side you will fall on if this great war should take place before your time is up? It would appear from here and from your many posts, you’re going to be on the outside, looking in at present if this great teacher of God is right. And I should add that it became very clear to me personally, that when the time arose, I was to tell you, should I say warn you, of this omen.

    I am not pegging for the dramatic flair – just simply passing on what I honestly believe to be a calling if you will. Something for you to think about and perhaps to a bit of introspection. I believe it would be well worth your time to make the time to listen not to me, but somebody far, far superior in knowledge than I am. 😉

  159. Saudi Arabia? lol What does an airline have to do with Muslim and Jews houses of worship? So what if the national airline doesn’t accept passengers with Israeli passports? How many do you think would want to visit? Are you holding SA up as some kind of standard? No one can practice any other religion openly there except for Islam. They are brutal and inhuman regime, performing public beheadings all the time. Half of their executions are foreign nationals. Explain to me why we haven’t invaded them by now. Oh yeah, oil trumps the notion of human rights. That’s our stated reason for attacking Syria. Human rights is a ruse to advance empire and topple opposition.

    Call it propaganda if you like, Tex. It still doesn’t change history or the present reality. I think rather you have been the one deceived. Look to who controls western media. There are plenty in the west believing as you do, since our pro zionist media puts forth those perceptions. Globally you are in the minority. Your opinions have been molded by decades of propaganda. “Whoever controls the media controls the mind.” – Jim Morrison

    And I have not only attended a synagogue as Christian on numerous occasions, but have been invited and in attendance at Four Bar Mitzvahs.

    Jolly good for you. I have had similar experiences. You can’t mention Jesus in a synagogue or witness at a bar mitzvah. My point was this: How many Jews have attended a church with you? How many do you know visit a Christian church? When Jews converted to Christianity in the NT they were pursued, persecuted, and often murdered. Yet you say we serve the same G-d. I say hogwash. Read Matthew 23 or Revelation 2 and 3 to get a clue.

    You seem to hold the opinion that all Jews are in favor of the forced state of Israel, or that it now represents all Jews or somehow equates to the same ‘nation of Israel’ mentioned in the Bible. Far from it. The Israel of the Bible and the state of Israel presently located in Palestine are completely different.

    As to your Revelation 12 reference, the 144,000 is symbolic representing perfection. Jews who are ‘real’ have to accept Jesus as messiah in order to be ‘sealed’. Messianic Jews in Israel today are considered treasonous and are discriminated against. You cannot become a citizen there if you claim to be Christian. It’s estimated between 80 and 90 percent of today’s Jews derive from converts to Judaism beginning in the 8th century. These are not the 12 tribes described.

    I have studied prophecy and have heard many differing interpretations of both Daniel and Revelation. I agree with some that claim the USA is Mystery Babylon. I welcome your debate there. I also believe many evangelicals are moving us toward Armageddon, falsely believing they’ll be rescued by a rapture.

  160. Poolman,

    I’m not surprised by the flippancy, but I am surprised at your imperceptible, illogical conclusion being opposed to your own argument from above.

    You just told me Muslims are more tolerant of the Christian faith than Jews, yet you followed in the next post with No one can practice any other religion openly there except for Islam. That doesn’t read like this tolerance you speak in the very heart of Mecca and the burial location of Muhammad himself in Medina. I could have substituted numerous predominately Muslim countries and for the most part, the situation for people calling themselves Christians would remain the same. My brothers and sisters in Christ have no problem practicing Christianity in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. But in Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Somalia, Syria and others, genocide of Christians is taking place – and it is clearly not at the hands of the Jews who have shared a similar fate at the hands of Islam.

    The Israel of the Bible and the state of Israel presently located in Palestine are completely different.

    Palestine didn’t exist sometime at the end of the 19th century. In fact, what you call Palestine was actually known as Jordan around the end of the 19th century. You seem to want to deny that Jerusalem can be Jewish. Yet the dome of the rock is located immediately above the Western Wall, with nobody I know disagreeing that is the site of the Jewish Temple destroyed by Emperor Titus in 70AD – and the temple where Jesus Himself worshiped. And don’t confuse my stance with aliyah and the return of the Jewish people vis-a-vis the country of Israel. My theological stances are for the Jewish people – not the secular State of Israel.

    It’s estimated between 80 and 90 percent of today’s Jews derive from converts to Judaism beginning in the 8th century. These are not the 12 tribes described.

    .

    I doubt those numbers you just provided, but let’s assume for a moment you are correct. Is Judaism a race or a faith? Think hard. Because if you say race, then the great-grandmother of King David of Israel was by your definition not Jewish. Now does it make sense that the very lineage of the Star of David would be considered something other than Jewish with a Book named after her in the Jewish Bible?

    The 144,000 is representative of the tribes of Israel – read down and it becomes crystal clear: A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. The twelve tribes are the clearest indicator the author speaking of Israel.

    You then follow with the charges of: Messianic Jews in Israel today are considered treasonous and are discriminated against. True. But so were all first century Jews who called themselves Christian. Yet Paul penned that God’s ultimate purpose in saving Gentile Christians is to save the Jews (Rom. 11). What do you know that the author of 1/3 of the New Testament didn’t know, Poolman?

    Your references to Revelation 2 & 3 are not even relevant to this debate. And you’ve often discounted me as dispensationalist, yet dispensationalists only make up 10% of the Evangelical community. I share the same sentiments with William Wilberforce and Lord Shaftesbury, Charles Simeon and Charles Spurgeon, all who strongly influenced British policy during the reformation of Israel. None of these would be considered dispensationalists.

    I’m not here to debate with you the end of grace, because frankly I don’t think you understand much of what precedes it. But I do find it interesting when even some of the most godless I know, here and elsewhere, can deduce both historical accuracy and Jewish epistemology more accurately than you do.

    I think you and others have misinterpreted my stance on the Palestinians. Being I believe that the peace of Jerusalem is to bless all people, that would require both a secure Jewish homeland and the chance at prosperity for Palestinians. Where we diverge I believe, is the extent of who is to blame for the hostility.

    Like I said, you’re welcome to discount everything I have just wrote, and in fact, I would be surprised if you did otherwise. But the palpable feeling being led to tell you what I stated previously was the truth. Perhaps you would be wise to at least give thought there might be something you are missing…

  161. You just told me Muslims are more tolerant of the Christian faith than Jews, yet you followed in the next post with No one can practice any other religion openly there except for Islam.

    I did not mean to confuse. Let me try again. All governments discriminate who they let into their borders and what is acceptable in their public places. There must be a distinction made between a person of faith and a kingdom or state. You cannot equate the two. Government is force that always misuses power, no matter what flavor. Public executions have been happening since there has been a public and are meant to keep the common people in line. Fear is the best control mechanism. Like anywhere, the wealthy and connected are above such matters.

    Palestine didn’t exist sometime at the end of the 19th century.

    Wikipedia says there are some 250 mentions in the Bible, and also contains this note:

    The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece.

    To be sure, the west’s notion of a nation or state with determined borders is just that. A contrived thing. The fact that the land has been mentioned throughout history gives it status, if not sovereignty.

    You seem to want to deny that Jerusalem can be Jewish.

    Not at all. Jerusalem was the Jewish capital until Christ. Jesus tells me in Luke 21 that Jerusalem will be occupied by gentiles until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. 70 AD was the boot to the Jews.

    Judaism is a faith with many sects. One can be born into Judaism or outsiders can convert to the faith. Israel is the name given Jacob AFTER he wrestled with God. At the time he had eleven sons. His wife Leah gave him six sons and a daughter. Leah’s sister Rachel, the one he actually loved, gave him Joseph and died while birthing Benjamin, the youngest of the twelve. The wives’ maidservants gave Jacob two sons each. Dinah doesn’t count, so the twelve boys are twelve tribes. They began as a family, albeit a rather dysfunctional one.

    Jacob’s final blessing of the twelve is foretelling. Judah and Joseph get the lion’s share. Others got curses. Judah is the ancestor of Jesus, if He had an earthly genetic line. Joseph was married to an Egyptian, bringing that into the mix. So not a very pure bloodline, which is interesting because the state with the name discriminates based on bloodline.

    I still say the average Muslim gets along peaceably with neighboring Christians. That is how it was in these Arab states before the ‘Arab Spring’. That is how Syria was before we sent mercenaries in to rile up things three years ago. That’s how Palestine was before the state of Israel was forged.

  162. Rutherford,

    I was listening to the talking heads last night, and decided I think you make a fair point though you haven’t specifically debated the point with me.

    No matter how its spun, the current discussion comes off to Africa as an American life is worth more than a life in Africa. While I think the American government should be restricting travel as safeguard for all of us and I’m not entirely confident in the CDC’s communiques, I didn’t want you left to conclude that I feel no amount of empathy for this insidious disease and the African plight. We white guys need to be more cognizant of how we frame the debate too and how it could come off to Black Americans. I wanted you to know that when I speak about protecting Americans, I’m not discriminating by color – that includes all of us.

    And by the way, I would be focusing on stopping this at the source – requiring more intervention in Africa by America. We’re kidding ourselves if we let ourselves believe this isn’t America’s problem.

  163. Your biblical take on Palestine is incorrect, Poolman.

    The term Palestine when rarely used in the Old Testament and then refers specifically to the southwestern coastal area of Israel occupied by the Philistines. It is a translation of the Hebrew word “Pelesheth.” The term is never used to refer to the land occupied by Israel. Before Israel occupied the land, it would be generally accurate to say that the southwestern coastal area was called Philistia (the Way of the Philistines), while the central highlands were called Canaan. Both the Canaanites and the Philistines had disappeared as distinct peoples at least by the time of the Babylonian Captivity of Judea (586 B.C.),.

    If I’m not mistaken, the word Palestine never appears in the New Testament.

  164. Is It time to consider travel restrictions?
    I think we should probably initiate quarantine actions on flights directly connected to the hot spots. domestically though I would need there to be stool greater risk. Surely the hardest hits can’t sustain not ending the outbreak. I would think the economic pain from restrictions allows the best chance for containment and recovery.
    On a totally different topic I saw the NYT was crowing about how US troops found tons of chemical weapons in Iraq but had really lax reporting The Tomes also near giddy per my pessimistic read that a number of personnel suffered illness and injury in encountering the weapons.

  165. This is why lying and constantly spinning has such a grave cost. A weak president who nobody trusts is about to address the nation about the potential (or lack of) of a plague.

    Outside of saying it was very unlikely anyone would get Ebola, dude has been practical invisible.

    Right now, its a dice roll. The nurse flew on a plane that went all over the country. The ball has been dropped at every stage. It could indeed be spreading.

    It doesn’t matter if this disease isn’t capable of becoming an epidemic. Confidence in our president has never been lower. Its the fear that could ravage us.

    I got food. I got guns. I got ammo. I got a hide out. I got a well. I got fuel. I got a tribe. I got a plan.

    Call me crazy or a loon, but its empowering to at least have a slim shot of surviving a break down.

  166. Rutherford, for craps sake fix this site. I just was on my PC. This template reminds me of the Jitterbug, that cell phone for geezers Jame’s age.

    I can’t type shit on my phone. Can’t type shit on my PC. Wtf?

  167. The Tomes also near giddy per my pessimistic read …

    You want giddy? You needed to watch the celebration on Maddow last night on the Supreme Court TX abortion case.

    Boys and girls, if one is not pro-life based on the principles, they surely would be based on the cavalier, coarse, heartless attitude of some pro-choice folks. YAY WE CAN KEEP PEOPLE FROM BEING BORN!!! That was the fucking mood on Maddow last night. Really pissed me off.

  168. I would think the economic pain from restrictions allows the best chance for containment and recovery.

    I’m kinda lost on that one Alfie. You’re linking economic punishment to getting the problem under control?

  169. I don’t know if it’s the result of hanging out with you paranoid jackasses for the past 7 years but I don’t trust the CDC any further than I can throw them.

  170. Rutherford, I meant I can’t pick up my typos when the font is so big.

    As for your lack of confidence, Obama dropped the ball on this again. You have confidence in Obama?

  171. Rutherford, I meant I can’t pick up my typos when the font is so big.

    You lost me. Your typos should be BIGGER and easier to spot. 🙂

    As for your lack of confidence, Obama dropped the ball on this again. You have confidence in Obama?

    Please tell me how this is Obama’s fault. He’s sending a crap load of soldiers to help kill this thing at its source.

  172. I got food. I got guns. I got ammo. I got a hide out. I got a well. I got fuel. I got a tribe. I got a plan.

    You got those listed in the wrong order. The guns and ammo need to be listed first cos if the shit hits the fan you won’t have any of the other stuff without the guns and ammo.

    I don’t need the guns and ammo. I’m staying at your shack.

  173. If I’m not mistaken, the word Palestine never appears in the New Testament.

    You’re not mistaken. Since the split between the kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah, and up to the time the NT was written, the area was called Samaria and Judea (actually Iudaea – a client kingdom of Rome). But it was still recognized as Palestine. You might find fault with this Byzantine era map. You might also want to rewrite this Jewish history timeline for Wikipedia, cuz it appears they aren’t getting the same intel you did. I can tell it’s been highly scrutinized by this notation in the 26-36 CE time slot: Trial and Crucifixion of Jesus killed by the Romans. Whereas, our brother Paul, whom you like as well, in his letter to the Thessalonians said this: “For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.” And of course Paul was both a Jew and a Roman citizen. You might seek the hopper’s help, since this timeline doesn’t support his input either.

  174. That was some phone typing R. I was going for a sentence that basically said:
    Economic hit now and short term which is tied to restrictions (because air only ain’t gonna cut it) could be survived and recovered from in post containment setting. Can’t be leaving the hot spots at a simmer.

    This is really a big deal in that this outbreak is the first to get deep into the urban setting. Previous Ebola outbreaks were rural to remote even. This is an eye opener because globally urban migration & urbanization is huge right now and for the near future. I’m starting to harken back to polio outbreaks and the 1918 [?] Spanish Influenza thing. If the various types of Ebola,perhaps SARS and whatever that Middle East camel thing was gets into urban areas?…..Holy S#%^ batman!

    In the USA I have to say I’m not surprised hospitals are ill prepared. We’ve lost that drive. Even at med centers with some real excellence infectious disease control can be kinda lax. I’ve seen it. Drills are all well and good but there is always that mix of arrogance and other focus that cheats us. The case in Spain is a good example,now Dallas. I’m confident any one of the Boston hospitals would easily experiencing a protocol breach.

  175. The whole ebola formula:

    Problem>Reaction>Solution 😈

    Know they are coming after whatever freedom is left.

    Beef up that immune system! 🙂

  176. Obama doesn’t have the balls to simply stop travel from tiny Liberia to America. Coward.

    Obama doesn’t have the organizational skills to not contradict the CDC. He’s not even on the same page with them. Doesn’t he sit down with them and talk? Wtf?

    Obama doesn’t have the foresight or intelligence to challenge the CDC’s lunacy.

    This is squarely on Obama.

    He reassured us that the likelihood of someone coming here with Ebola was tiny. Then we were told about the awesome protocols. The nurse called the CDC and told them about her fever and that she was getting on a plane. SHE TOLD THEM. Obama himself should have tackled her before getting on that plane.

    Add in the fact that NOBODY outside of MSNBC fan boys trust a word that comes out of his mouth….and yup….terrible leadership.

    Again. Close down travel FROM the three tiny African nations.

    Oh yeah….the Army is fighting Ebola. Who sends an army to a plague?

    No logic to anything these people say. You can’t catch on a bus but you can give it on a bus.

    WAKE UP. THERE ARE NO PROTOCOLS. THERE IS NO LEADERSHIP.

  177. I listened to that dolt tonight, Gerry Rivera, and pray I never have to listen to to him again. He accused the Dallas hospital of being racist because the
    “Ebola” man was black, uninsured and poor. Did I mention his extended family is suing the hospital?

    Sure Geraldo. The triage department at the Dallas hospital pushed the poor black man out the front door because although they knew he had Ebola, he wasn’t insured. 🙄

    See, the poor black man came in with a fever, diarrhea, and sweats and that was a clear indicator he was an Ebola victim, though there had never been a documented case walk into a hospital in the U.S..

    We should all be so smart as Gerry. What’s he on? His fifth marriage now?

  178. Rutherford – I am confused by your multiple proclamations on legal abortion. What, exactly, is your position, and why?

  179. “R”, how do you like the keen mind of the Liberal establishment now? Ezra Klein is actually arguing for false convictions concerning campus rape as a conscious strategy in order to strike fear into the innocent. You think I exaggerate when I say the Left isn’t only grossly incompetent, immoral, and dishonesty, but fascist in its base nature? And you think this is really driven by the felt need to protect women?

    Read this and tell me where I’m wrong:

    http://www.vox.com/2014/10/13/6966847/yes-means-yes-is-a-terrible-bill-and-i-completely-support-it

  180. I posted a trailer for Stephen King’s “The Stand” and so far this is playing out according to the book. Of course Ebola is less contagious than super flu, and Karam Abdule Jabar (sp) is not crying “The dark man is coming.” Human behavior is universal, and the public and our politicians could almost have followed the script.

    The government sent troops to the danger zone as we are sending them to Africa. In “No Blade of Grass” the government tried to secretly nuke the excess population as the military wiped out a contagious village in “Outbreak.”

    We watched a society deteriorate during a flu epidemic which disabled about 60% of the people for a couple of weeks. No one panicked but a pathogen with a high death rate might have been different.

    We practiced for mass casualties in our Air Force hospital and sometimes the real thing went more smoothly than the rehearsals. I was second in command of a disinfection crew I mentioned before. We cleaned everything imaginable, but in the end we probably should have quaranteened ourselves for more than a few hours. I guess someone higher on the command scale said we were safe.

    Jurassic Park is a classic example of human error emotions, and bad luck our leaders seem to ignore, The point of the story was “Nature will find a way.”

  181. A talk show host interviewed a doctor familiar with our medical system. Four hospitals are equipped to treat highly contagious diseases. One is in Omaha. Up to 700 trained staff worked to keep the sick alive. All four hospitals have only a total of 11 beds.

    A guest on Coast to Coast said it takes about 150 people to treat Ebola patients. If the US has a thousand patients in its hospitals, the system begins to deteriorate. The odds of catching Ebola may be less than winning the lottery orof being struck by lighting, but people will behave as if their lives were in imminent danger.,

  182. DR you seem to be having a bad day. Protocols can be as simple as a printed communique from CDC. It is as a rule a good idea for someone at the receiving facility to actually read and act upon the information. This is one of the great problems in America.
    The government from local all the way up to the Feds is too damn big. The various agencies literally flood folks with info. I remember having some serious down time in a local hospital once when I was doing the 911 gig. Mind you this was a community level hospital,not one of the big teaching hospitals or designated trauma centers in Boston. There were multiple binders with advisories and protocols. There was this neat book that was body parts,part of the book was if you found the part the other section was for if you got a patient missing a part.Then there was information on equipment,alerts from area law enforcement and on and on and on. Seriously there was so much information there was no way anyone was going to be up to date on heaps of it.
    Another issue when we have occurs when a very good and concise advisory comes out. The hospital administrator hopefully acts on it in a less than bureaucratic shit head kind of way. Lo and behold though you run into situations where people in the workforce want $$$$$. Its crazy you tell staff to update their knowledge on triaging fever patients in light of Ebola and you get union and non union humps demanding money for training and shit.Nurses are the worse but thats my former paramedic bias showing through perhaps. But really they are the worse.

  183. Not for nothing but the USA,UK and China have deployed assets into the effected countries. The US deployment is the largest.
    Bottom line though is that deployments like this are not out of line nor are they concocted control takeover shit.
    Logistically speaking nobody has the chops to do what needs to be done better than the military. Command and control assets can work an aid mission as well as they do an assault. The medical facilities and the personnel attached to them are instant positives in an area where the ratios are just totally out of balance.
    There is an eerie neo-imperialism angle to this but that shouldn’t be read as anything like the ludicrous notion that Ebola was created for this. Basically though the countries dealing with the outbreak are fragile states. The entire region is really. The West and China have eyes on resources and potential investments there is no denying that. They also have vested interests in the form of nationals in the region who deserve security and health assurances.
    10k people may die from this horrid disease but the very next day roads still need to be paved,people need clean water and whether its coffee,cotton,rare earths,oil or whatever the market must be open.

  184. How are they supposed to act on information when they don’t even have the damn gear.

    Protocols are communicated via memo. But the real “protocol” is the practice, training and materials busted out over and over again.

    There are no protocols.

    The CDC looked at Congress in the eyes and said they are open to suggestions. Wtf?

    This is directly tied to a president who loves everything about government except execution.

    Pussy lead from behind bull shit.

    Meanwhile, as we speak, People are flying in from Liberia. That’s on Obama.

    Only 15 to 20 cases of this thing could do so much damage to the economy.

    We are relying on nothing but dumb luck. They let an infected nurse jet set the country.

  185. Rabbit my friend you’re bordering on stupid. If the CDC is dysfunctional (and I suspect it is), that dysfunction predates Obama. An org doesn’t just wake up one day and start screwing up. Obama is your fav whipping boy so you blame him for everything. Sometimes you’re right. This time you’re being silly.

    By the way you have the NRA and the pressure they put on congress to thank for our not having a Surgeon General. Nominee made himself toxic by talking about gun control and couldn’t get confirmed.

    The Surgeon General MIGHT be a good central spokesman for the crisis. We don’t have one thanks to a pussy congress.

  186. The minute Ebola mutates and becomes airborne, we an all kiss our arses goodbye. I’m also concerned about the modes of transmission of which I’m not convinced science has a handle on. For instance, can mosquitoes provide the vector of transmission, is the virus possible transmitted through sweat, etc.? I hope to heck somebody is giving serious consideration to development of a vaccine, because that is the only sure way to eliminate this insidious disease.

    Alfie is exactly right. The entire Federal gov’t is such a bloated behemoth, I have absolutely no faith in a thing they do or tell us – and not even because I believe all of them are dishonest.

    I just think the Federal Gov’t is that inept. 😡

  187. Just got back from my son’s allergist appointment. This guy is no dumb ass. Nationally renown doctor.

    He can’t believe Obama won’t shut down travel from Liberia et al.

    Yes Rutherford, I expect Obama to know the CDC is a cluster fuck. You act like Ebola hasn’t been in the news for 6 months.

    But…fair enough…this government is so incompetent maybe that aspect of it isn’t Obama’s fault.

    But letting people fly in from Ebola plague zones?

    Rutherford….why are we letting people in from there in the first place?

  188. Seems to me Tex you overreacted to Ezra Klein’s article. He was hardly a cheerleader for “yes means yes”. He simply felt it was the best bad way to solve a nasty problem.

    My problem is not with Klein but with the definition of the issue. I just don’t believe the 1 in 5.

  189. Folks I think there is a lot of misguided hysteria happening and a lot of false finger pointing crap. The blogger Patterico has a post that tracks back to reports on the CDC and the changing of protocols. Some of the press I’ve seen on this seems to be equally misguided with an absolute failure to look back in time.
    Within this PDF from 2007 it can be seen that precautions,concerns of transmission via sweat on unbroken skin and weaponization of the Ebola family of virus were all on the minds of CDC and literally “in the books”.

  190. Rutherford, why is your President allowing people from the plague epicenter to infect America? You are cool with that?

  191. How is it even practical to ban flights? Dude flies from Liberia to Belgium then to US. You gonna check the origination of every traveler entering US from any flight from any country?

    Duncan was NOT first Ebola patient to enter US. He was the first to enter with protocols be damned.

  192. Funny….you don’t seem to question a situation where the airports* are manned with on the spot ebola diagnosticians but stopping someone with the wrong passport….impossible. Airports can’t even get a Cinnabon® served right.

    *some airports….others in America still do nothing.

  193. “Duncan was NOT first Ebola patient to enter US. He was the first to enter with protocols be damned.”

    And you laugh at those with faith.

    Dumb luck. Obama’s Plague Policy.

  194. This is where I don’t get your thinking Rabbit. The Dallas hospital totally screwed the pooch. Are you really saying Obama is responsible for that? Dude comes in with 103 temp and is sent home with antibiotic scrip when he told them he was from Liberia. MAJOR MAJOR FAIL.

    To answer Tex’s gripe about Geraldo, there is a shred of truth there. Before you guys go ballistic hear me out.

    1. Virtually every ER in this country is out of control. Full of non-emergencies of uninsured folks. ER is their only option. (I’ve seen my share of ER’s as a patient.)
    2. Triage isn’t based on symptoms alone. Dude with funny accent comes into an overworked ER with a fever. Other major symptoms not yet present. So funny accent dude is told go home.

    It’s not so much a “black” thing. But I do think the outcome might have been different if Duncan were not a strange looking foreigner. I don’t think it’s necessarily nefarious. I think it could have been perfect storm of odd sick guy not triggering alerts in overworked staff.

  195. Seems to me Tex you overreacted to Ezra Klein’s article. He was hardly a cheerleader for “yes means yes”.

    No offense, “R”, but it is comments like this that make me question exactly how bright you really are. This scumbag is not a cheerleader – he’s a proponent of allowing for false accusations of crime for crying out loud. Klein is actually making defense of false allegations of crime to throw fear in all men.

    And you don’t have a problem with men being falsely accused of rape? :shocked:

    Well, shit. I guess you don’t have a problem with historical KKK either then, hey? They used to lynch black men under false allegations…but as long as women make the allegations, it’s okay with Ezra and you.

    Unfuckingbelievable…

  196. Dude comes in with 103 temp and is sent home with antibiotic scrip when he told them he was from Liberia. MAJOR MAJOR FAIL.

    You have no idea what you’re talking about. Being a patient is not nursing and certainly not doctoring. This Duncan was running a low grade fever and was in fact, under the guides of the travel rules, permitted to fly like the infected nurse. I doubt few if any hospitals would have diagnosed this properly. Let’s remember. This was the very first case recorded in the U.S. of somebody showing up at the emergency room entrance.

    The only thing you can fairly blame the hospital for is being slow to establish called for protocols.

  197. Tex all I’m saying is Klein is weighing benefit against risk. I don’t come to his conclusion. Any woman can cry rape. It ain’t cool. I don’t disagree with your take at all. I just don’t agree that Klein is an eager advocate. I think HE is uncomfortable with HIS conclusion.

  198. This IS truly the oddest thing. MSNBC is simultaneously deriding pols who “spread fear” about Ebola yet the network itself has its hair on fire about Ebola.

    Hey Poolman is Ebola the “October surprise” intended to skew the election?

  199. I know you’re the one with med school experience but 103 is not low grade.

    I don’t know how to make this any clearer. Many individuals with Ebola express little or no elevated body temperature until the late stages (and sometimes not at all), making the temperature check at airports even more ludicrous. This is no way to screen for a lethal illness, being patients who are asymptomatic are still carrying the disease. To answer your question about how to screen, everyone must carry a passport. That’s how you screen.

    And it was reported tonight that Duncan did not have a temperature of 103 degrees as you are reporting.

    I’m one that actually has a normal body temperature somewhat above 98.6 degrees (the benchmark). That 98.6 varies from individual to individual, making the temperature check at airports as a tool even more ludicrous.

  200. And it was reported tonight that Duncan did not have a temperature of 103 degrees as you are reporting.

    As usual we can’t even agree on the basic facts of the case. I’ve seen nothing to contradict that he was turned away with 103 temp.

  201. Supposedly if they are asymptomatic they are not contagious

    True. But…Hypothetical

    A’Precious Rutherford gets on plane in Liberia infected with the Ebola virus, Destination Dallas, TX. The patient is asymptomatic. The flight time is approximately 13hrs, from Liberia, to Belgium, to Chicago, IL, to Dallas, TX.

    During the flight, the patient begins to run a low grade fever, experiences G.I. disturbances, and sweats profusely. By the time patient arrives in Dallas, TX, she is manifesting symptoms of Ebola, though the hospital never having seen a case of Ebola which has symptoms resembling a stomach virus and food poisoning, misdiagnoses her and sends her home with a prescription in the emergency room.

    Are you going to (1) Want to board that plane, (2) Have your son or daughter on that plane traveling from Chicago to Dallas, sit in the emergency room seat where A’Precious sat, turn the same doorknobs A’Precious turned, and sits their cute little ass on the same toilet where A’Precious sat experiencing “explosive” diarrhea?

    That’s why it is important that we for a period of 90 days, establish a travel ban and get serious about treating the disease at the source.

  202. Viral illnesses are typically non-infectious until they provoke a fever; after the fever is over, then they are non-infectious again. It appears that nobody really knows the lifecycle of ebola, though.

    Tex is right about the hospital. You can’t treat properly what you have never seen before or never been trained for. Nobody – what did you call it, R? – screwed the pooch?

    When they transferred the nurse, the media showed a string of about ten police cars fore and aft of the ambulance. What the hell were they for? Not to mention the helicopter the footage was shot from. Were they afraid the patient was going to try to run away from her only hope for survival? jesus. And then what – were the cops going to tackle her? Shoot her? Get a grip, boys. US has too much cop money and too much cop equipment and too many cops. I’ve a friend in the NE and he says every traffic stop now involves at a minimum two police cars with lights a-flashin’. What’s that all about? US has the lowest crime rate in decades now – too many cops with too much time on their hands.

    R – did you miss the question about your apparently complex position on abortion, or don’t want to say?

    BTW, interesting shift of atmosphere – your doing, R?

  203. R – did you miss the question about your apparently complex position on abortion, or don’t want to say?

    Saw the question and still crafting response. Takes less time to argue with Tex about definition of low grade fever. 🙂

  204. Tex and Rabbit mentioning passports stopped me in my tracks but news media and POTUS keep talking about “broken travel” which would undermine travel ban. Makes me think some airports are lax about stamping passports. I need to research this.

  205. I too had to laugh at the procession of police cars – it did kind of remind me of the White Bronco. But no more than laughing at nobody will handle the cremated body of Duncan. Gang, when your buddy’s body is ashes after being scorched at about 1,000C, you’re safe to play with the ashes. LOL.

    I can remember in microbiology, we used to run something like a glowing welding rod across a multitude of diseases in a petri dish. Trust me, you get a sterile field with a glowing metal rod.

    R, I do agree that we are scaring ourselves by being somewhat irrational with fear. If none of Duncan’s family members show symptoms in 30 days, I’ll have far more confidence.

    But I’m siding with Rabbit because with small children and an inept government, I simply do not trust the information being passed on to the general public. If diluted bleach will supposedly kill this disease, I want some questions answered that nobody has answered to my satisfaction. If this were the flu, it would be one thing. But this insidious disease is lethal in short order. I take the pragmatic approach of being sure…

  206. 😈 The Centers for Disease Control 😈 is one of those elite federal agencies that people hitherto assumed was, so to speak, immune to the pathologies of less glamorous government bureaucracies. It turns out it’s the DMV with test tubes – just the usual “Sorry? Did we say you need two copies of the green form? We meant you need three copies of the pink form” routine with extra lethality. The Protocols of the Elders of Druid Hills have proved to be boundlessly mutable and mostly honored in the breach:

    ~Don’t worry, the Protocols are in place – except that Thomas Duncan, the original Ebola patient, was left in an open area of the Dallas emergency room for hours and the medical staff treating him did not have protective clothing for the first two days.
    
    ~Don’t worry, they did eventually get fully sealed, protective clothing – well, except for their necks, which remained exposed.
    
    ~Don’t worry, exposed medical staff aren’t supposed to fly – except that Nurse Amber Vinson got on a flight to Cleveland with a fever.
    
    ~Well, okay, but that was totally in breach of the Protocols – except that Nurse Vinson called the CDC to check and they said, “Sure, get on the plane. What’s the worst that can happen? And make sure you share the bag of mini-pretzels…”
    
    ~Well, okay, but the next time Nurse Vinson got a flight, everyone followed the Protocols and wore hazmat suits – except for the guy with the clipboard, who works for the CDC and so can’t be expected to know all this Protocol stuff…
    
    As I said yesterday, the mortality rate for Ebola is 70 per cent – if you go nowhere near a hospital and just stay in your primitive disease-ridden village. If you go to a Liberian hospital, the mortality rate goes down a whopping three per cent to 67 per cent. One had assumed that western hospitals would be able to lower that significantly, but Hazmat Bob’s Ministry of Propaganda is not terribly reassuring on that front.
    

    Worth the read: http://www.steynonline.com/6604/protocol-theatre At least you can laugh at the Keystone Cops.

  207. ”Stopping air travel from the affected countries has its pro’s and con’s for sure.”

    What are the cons?

    Besides that Obama might actually have to make a decision instead of a speech. I understand Obama’s refusal to do ban travel is that he doesn’t think it’ll work.

    The administration’s response – cancelling fund raiser appearances and whatnot, is interesting. Unusual. Something they said they don’t want to do because they don’t want to start a panic. (Personally I think just having Obama as decision-maker is enough to cause a panic.)

  208. “Folks I think there is a lot of misguided hysteria happening and a lot of false finger pointing crap. The blogger Patterico has a post that tracks back to reports on the CDC and the changing of protocols. Some of the press I’ve seen on this seems to be equally misguided with an absolute failure to look back in time.”

    Alfie what is “a lot of misguided hysteria happening and a lot of false finger pointing crap” a reference to exactly?

    And are you saying that the press is “equally misguided” as Patterico, or that Patterico has it right?

  209. Muffy I’m saying that a review of the 2007 publication indicates that the CDC hasn’t changed its protocols and that higher than generally appreciated points such as sweat transfer have been on the CDC radar

  210. As for flight bans basically they don’t work if you don’t catch folks that skip stop travel. The math gives you someone with fever in Europe who may not be prevented boarding. The other thing I don’t hear is how a ban prevents US citizens from coming home even WITHOUT EXPOSURE!
    Those two chinks in the “armor” make a con I’d say.

  211. Alfie, how does the ban work. Why couldn’t US citizens returning home have quarantine be built into it? I also don’t get the Europe thing. Are you saying that it would force banned passengers to go through Europe with lower testing standards to arrive here in worse shape than had there been direct flights? I’m not “getting” the countervailing arguments that are in any6 way persuasive. What am I missing?

  212. Tiger I don’t think Liberia et al has a lot of non stop flight action there are connections and Africa as does Europe experiences a different fare schedule so doing single legs can prove economical

  213. Let’s not forget that any bans if not total only puts you in a situation where perhaps you block the people but not the virus. It’s not like aircraft get routinely disinfected to the Ebola standard

  214. “Worst ebola epidemic in world history and Pres. Obama puts a government bureaucrat with no healthcare experience in charge. Is he serious” -Rep Harris

    The guy who floated the Solyndra lie, ran the corrupt stimulus package and who is not a doctor is now our Ebola Czar. You can’t make this shit up. Your president, R.

    Oh…Susan Rice is in his chain of command.

    Dumb luck.

  215. DR, I understand you are correct that this is the man who allocated bucks to the elusive not shovel ready jobs stimulus in 2009 – and Obama was impressed. 😈 Like Steyn said above, Obama’s Presidency is above and beyond parody its so bad. Everything is so unserious now under the tutelage of Obama, all you can do is stare death in the face and smile. The proverbial digging our grave. Start digging – there’s your new stimulus job. Thank you, Dear Leader!

    I just talked to my Druze friend I was telling you about who makes my sandwiches. Very nice man, who I’ve know for years in light conversation. He’s my age, but he said he was thinking about returning home to Syria after 35 years to join the army. I asked him what side he is on so I would know who to shoot when the war breaks out. LOL Hassan said, “First I’m going to kill ISIS and the Saudis who took over my town. Then after teaming up with Assad’s soldiers to do that, I am going to turn around and kill Assad.” 😯

    Is this world screwed, or what?

  216. As I quoted before, “nature will find a way” because humans are error prone and luck is impersonal.

    A Nigerian minister in our county plans to fly home to see his family. Our friend is worried that he might get sick. Nigeria will be declared Ebola free after Monday, and they giver partial credit to closed borders and good medical strategy. I think his main risk will that of facing a travel ban when he decides to return home to Iowa.
    Obamas’ new Ebola Czar is another reason people who voted for him owe the rest of us an appollogy.

  217. Alfie – It would seem to me that we always know where a passenger originated. Any passenger who originates in Liberia, no matter where he transfers, still is known to have originated in Liberia and cannot come in.

    You could theoretically, I suppose, get off in London, take a train to Paris and fly from there on a separate ticket, if you were TRYING to fool the authorities.

  218. “Saw the question and still crafting response. Takes less time to argue with Tex about definition of low grade fever.”

    LOL Appreciate the candor. For the thoughtful, it’s a tough subject to negotiate, isn’t it?

    40 is really hot and scary in an adult, pretty common in kids. Let’s see – what is that ——104F or so. 39 is pretty uncomfortable for an adult; my kids played outside all day with that. At 41 our medico told us to start bathing them in cool water. “Not cold – makes them shiver.”

  219. You could theoretically, I suppose, get off in London, take a train to Paris and fly from there on a separate ticket, if you were TRYING to fool the authorities.

    That’s one of the current talking points against a ban. We don’t want to give incentive to fool ones way into the country. Candor about health and origin is to our benefit.

  220. You’ve all missed why the travel ban is futile.

    1. Liberian with dormant Ebola flies to Paris.
    2. Liberian shows symptoms on the Champs-Elysées and comes in contact with beautiful chanteuse.
    3. Chanteuse flies to Atlanta and gets her bodily fluids on El Tigre.

    The rest is destiny.

  221. Not even a comment on my new gravatar, ingrate? 😛 Do you know how hard I work to give you a grin, you Obama fawning sad sack? Don’t worry. I got another one for the Hillary Ticket that will amuse that I stole from Drudge.

    Thought it was pretty funny too.

  222. I can’t believe these Obama apologists think the current system in place produces “candor”

    Liberian in Monrovia admits he feels like shit and is running a fever-Is sent to an Ebola death camp to die (even though he only has the sniffles). Any and all sick people in Liberia have to lie in order not be thrown into a death camp.
    They have to hide their fever. Ebola or not.

    How about we not let them come here? Or Europe for that matter?

    A travel ban isn’t fool proof. Who said it was?

    I guess Rutherford needs to call Nigeria and tell them to reopen their brooders and reverse the course of action that snuffed out the plague there.

    The travel ban would have stopped the current Ebola mess in America.

    Half the airports in America have no screening…making candor moot.

    You are being fed a line of shit, Rutherford.

    Mark my words, we will ban travel from Liberia. Do the math. What will Liberia look like by Christmas? Of course, waiting will costs lives and treasure. And of course after the travel ban is implemented, Rutherford will just move on, bored by the told you so’s

  223. Federal health officials are focusing their attention on New York as a key potential Ebola point of entry, with a new report warning: “Ongoing transmission of Ebolavirus in West Africa could result in an infected person arriving in NYC.”

    The report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention noted that New York is key entry point for those coming in from West Africa, but apparently so far Ebola free.


    Yes New York. You are a key entry point with people coming from West Africa. And your president wants to keep that way.

  224. Not to be a wet blanket guys but the success of Nigeria and Senegal is more based in the tracing system they put in place.A system the USA has implemented. Patient zero contacts in the two countries were monitored for 42 days via home visits and social media apps. As for travel restrictions Senegal is attempting to monitor its borders but recognize importation is still possible. Nigeria cases were based in two locations. The airport screening they put into place resemble the maligned US policy but is two-way in nature not just arrivals.

  225. Rabbit ‘m willing to go on the record for a gentlemen’s bet. You say we (USA) will have travel bans in place by Christmas. I say Liberia will be declared Ebola free by New Years.

  226. Even more amazing would be if we were both right!

    I hope I’m wrong.

    I could use some good news. Just read about the 7000 sex slaves and the execution of their respective husbands in Obama’s Iraq. What makes you think that Liberia will be Ebola free?

  227. Chanteuse juice? Nice!

    Seems to me, the question is whether it is more or less likely to import the virus if there’s a ban, not if it’s a perfect prevention.

  228. I say Liberia will be declared Ebola free by New Years.

    I’ll take that gentlemen’s bet, Alfie. Being they’ve now got a six week latency for measurement, that means you’ve got less than four weeks to eradicate the virus – at least in Liberia. 🙂

    Simple math is on my side.

  229. Rutherford: Please bear with my little allegory —

    While walking down the street one day a Corrupt Senator was tragically hit by a car and died. His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.
    “Welcome to heaven,” says St.. Peter.. “Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we’re not sure what to do with you..”
    “No problem, just let me in,” says the Senator.
    “Well, I’d like to, but I have orders from the higher ups. What we’ll do is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity.”
    “Really?, I’ve made up my mind. I want to be in heaven,” says the Senator.
    “I’m sorry, but we have our rules.”
    And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell.
    The doors open and he finds himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are all his friends and other politicians who had worked with him. Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet him, shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich at the expense of the people. They played a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar and the finest wines and champagne. Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly guy who is having a good time dancing and telling jokes.
    They are all having such a good time that before the Senator realizes it, it is time to go. Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while the elevator rises.
    The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens in heaven where St. Peter is waiting for him, “Now it’s time to visit heaven…”
    So, 24 hours passed with the Senator joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns.
    “Well, then, you’ve spent a day in hell and another in heaven. Now choose your eternity.”
    The Senator reflects for a minute, then he answers: “Well, I would never have said it before, I mean heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in hell.”
    So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell…

    Now the doors of the elevator open and he’s in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage. He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls to the ground.
    The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulders.
    “I don’t understand,” stammers the Senator. “Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time. Now there’s just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable. What happened?”

    The devil smiles at him and says, “Yesterday we were campaigning, Today, you voted…”

    Vote carefully in November, Yanks. The whole world depends on the US making wise decisions; so far you ain’t doing too good.

  230. We are using a tracing system similar to Nigeria, but Nigeria apparently has a less porous border than we do . They have said closing their border was a major part of their strategy. They caught a sick man sneaking in.

    We should have impeached Obama after Bengazhi but it was politically unfeasible, thanks in part to the dominant news media and ignorant voters. We should have imposed a travel ban months ago, but as CDC director Thomas Frieden testified yesterday, “If we tried to eliminate travel, the possibility that someone will travel over land, will come from other places, and we don’t know that they are coming in will mean that we won’t be able to do multiple things.”

    Our sudden epidemic of enterovirus seems suspicious to me. A few of the children might have carried it here. One of its opening acts was in Iowa where we know some of the children were settled. IF Ebola isn’t contained,in Africa, other sick people’s sneaking in is inevitable. We are like the Titanic when crews tried to pump out water as the safety hatches gave way. Even with a travel ban, desperate people will sneak in because they know our medical system is one of the worlds’ best,

    I think our main hope is a vaccine.

    I also take the bet, alfie. If we lived closer, the winners or winner could treat the other to a meal at Texas Road House.

  231. I like to go big or go home,its a good reason why I don’t do real gambling other than the stock market. With that said my bold take on Ebola is one I don’t necessarily expect to win but I am calling out a number of players and think my boldness is not without some validity.
    First I think the numbers are a little cooked. Modeling only slightly better than the climate ones has been reported and defended in the MSM.
    Second I think the course of the virus on the front lines will experience an unfortunate and ghastly kill off by Thanksgiving.
    In a parallel to these two I think the internationals will be moving harder by turkey day with 33% nobility 33% “we look really sucky”! and 33% lying.
    Watch for international headlines of great organizational headway by Christmas.
    My predictions will possibly make me look more Jeanne Dixon than Nostradamus but I’m still putting my chips in

  232. Good for you, alfie.

    “ghastly kill off” takes me back to an Asian fungus which attacked soy beans with the ferocity of Ebola virus. However, unlike Ebola, the fungus spread rapidly with 100% efficiency. The fungus had decimated Brazil’s soy bean crops, and farmers were struggling to contain the pathogen, Asian spotted beetles were introduced to eat the aphids and they tended to slow the disease. Brazilians learned that the only real solution was quarantine and destruction of every plant which showed beginning symptoms.

    We spoke to a number of Brazilian farmers for advice. Our extension agents gave us magnifying glasses and pictures to inspect plants for early sighs of the disease. Any suspicious plants would be sent in sealed bags to ISU for diagnosis. Potential problems emerged as with the Ebola epidemic. The infrastructure for using spray to kill soy bean fields was untested and likely inadequate for mass spraying in newly affected areas. As with Ebola, there was also a problem with late diagnosis.

    A Brazilian farmer told us if he spotted the disease in a neighbor’s field, he would spray the field as soon as possible, even if he couldn’t find the neighbor. We told him we couldn’t do that in the US. He asked “would you sacrifice an entire industry when you could kill the fire before it spread?” What would drive us to do the same to people to save ourselves?

  233. For the record I am disappointed that the Ebola czar has zero medical experience.

    If I’m not mistaken many hospital presidents have no medical experience. They are there for management. That can be a defense for Klain. But as usual the optics suck. Putting a doctor in charge would have looked better and made the country feel safer.

    My bet for czar was Ezekiel Emmanuel, brother of Rahm and major Obama fan AND a doctor.

  234. Czars are pretty stupid and that goes double when you don’t have any real authority to do anything.
    Obamas Surgeon General is not a good choice and is in fact a horrendously shitty choice on many levels. That said the current acting SG could be tapped.
    Under no circumstances do I agree that we should be empowering government to evoke public health actions under a Homeland Security veil.
    People outraged by the individualshould be more outraged by the concept period.

  235. Alfie you may or may not be getting at this but placing health under homeland security does lead to conflating this crisis with weaponized virus and bio-terrorism.

    I believe there has already been a congress critter who has floated the idea of ISIL members self-infecting and coming to the states to share their bodily fluids with the rest of us.

  236. Just for full disclosure, got the following comment on 2009 post from someone claiming to be Noah:

    “Havn’t been around in awhile. New format kind of sucks.”

    Since the email address was totally unfamiliar, I spammed it. If he has the brains to contribute something meaningful to the current thread I’ll approve the post.

  237. Actually that’s not what I’m getting at.
    If you want a czar and you want one thats in the field use the Surgeon General (who is ironically called an Admiral but lol)
    My bigger point is that a czar for Ebola is stupid. That putting Ebola on a public health footing with DHS backup,which is what is happening when you have the political hack Klain answering to Susan Rice.
    Don’t let Ebola cause hysterical stupidity. Don’t give up freedom. Don’t shit yourself over a nothing burger.
    Did you hear how Mexico wouldn’t let Carnival cruise line dump the lab tech from Dallas Presb. so CDC could fly her asymptomatic non exposed ass back home?

    As for weaponization…..check the 2007 pdf I linked earlier. Its in there. Rather impractical method for a poor mans bio weapon if you ask me.

  238. Don’t let Ebola cause hysterical stupidity

    I hope my concerns haven’t left you with that impression, Alfie. I agree with you. But I do think it dangerous to be treating Ebola as just another influenza outbreak too (not that you have).

    I try to be a prudent man with respect to potentially dangerous problems, factoring in risk in general. Ebola is a difficult one to gauge, frankly, because there’s no precedent to measure the potential danger. The chances of contraction are probably small, even in close proximity; but the risk is as high as it gets. That’s why I am leaning taking more precautions than probably necessary.

    But I’ll tell you why I would put in travel bans. Two fold. Airline business and the irrational fear (unfairly I might add), and discouraging desperate people to do what this Duncan guy attempted. What Duncan didn’t realize is that he probably increased his chances of death by flying to the U.S. and delaying treatment. The general treatment if I understood correctly is hydration and electrolyte balance, with possibly something trying to control G.I.. Really, that’s not different that the recommendation for most viruses.

  239. To say that Obama has not committed an impeachable act is wrong. High crimes and misdemeanors include allegations of misconduct such as perjury of oath, abuse of authority, failure to supervise, and dereliction of duty. Those are not crimes, but they display incompatence and enough doubt exists to charge Obama for trial. It won’t happen, of course, but it should.

    We would have a hard time closing or borders to stop African travelers since most enter the US via air line connections in Europe. Mexico and Canada would be compariitively easier. We could hold travelers for a few days at our expense or coordinate something with other countries.

    If I had lived in Africa I might have suspected Ebola. A cold from our grand daughter graduated into something miserable. Sicker than a dog.

  240. @ Tex my comment was aimed at Rutherford and what I viewed as a possible theme in his comment. There are folks who are way too willing to abdicate too much in the false belief it’ll help with Ebola and most importantly would go away when Ebola concerns do.
    I think something the US can take to heart is Spain. On 27 October Spain will be declared Ebola free if no new cases appear and all signs point that no new cases related to their case #1 are expected.
    From the math I can do from available information the USA is Ebola free by before Thanksgiving easy.
    Caution is clearly indicated and your comment made me rethink yours,James and El Tigre earlier points on travel bans.
    In many ways the funnel has been greatly reduced to a very manageable point. Most airlines have voluntarily suspended service of flights out of the affected areas. Its down to like 3-4 flights a week which makes for better monitoring ease. I was wondering if that was enough?

  241. “Airline business and the irrational fear (unfairly I might add), and discouraging desperate people to do what this Duncan guy attempted. What Duncan didn’t realize is that he probably increased his chances of death by flying to the U.S. and delaying treatment.”

    You need a visa to come to the US from Liberia. This takes time. He applied last year and it was issued this August.

  242. @JAL not a jab or anything like that but as updated for 19 October the Liberia travel requirements are as follows:(assumes you’re a Liberian applying in Monrovia)
    12 day wait for interview 2 days processing
    The above assumes you paid the fee $160. which is paid to a third party service (ecobank) apparently you bring the receipt with you to the Embassy.
    The DS 160 form
    your valid passport.

  243. Dhimi Cahtuhr can die knowing that he is no longer the worst President in modern memory.

    The Administration’s response to ebola has been appalling. And those who have been spinning with ridiculous comparisons aren’t very good at figuring out why this is different.

  244. Texas has done little to provide decent healthcare to those without insurance or poor Texans.

    Texas Presbyterian nurses are not represented by a union. There is no one representing/protecting them. No one to see they have the proper training, information or equipment. Perhaps had Duncan visited a different state he would have received better care and the front line care providers would have been better prepared.

    Decisions made in a panic or fear usually have bad results. The fear surrounding this Ebola scare is not reality. The media has done little to keep the public informed with facts. And there are some politicians/public figures making outrageous claims that one has to wonder who ties their shoes. They should be arrested.

  245. alfie – thank you for the update. What I read Duncan applied for a visa last year … so he did not come to the US because he KNEW he was sick.

    Routine visas should be cancelled until further notice. Those situations (health workers etc) should be taken under consideration for now.

  246. What about DOH? Since when is a union required to protect healthcare workers? What special insight would the “union” have that the government not have?

    As for keeping the public informed of facts, I thought that was the undertaking of the federal government inw hich you place all of your faith. How’s that going for you?


    BiC, god to see you haunting this place. You need to stop in more.

    The most galling to me is the typical blame casting/avoidance as the immediate reaction. Look at the HuffPo KOS commentary from the apologists.

    You’re last post at your place is a good one. Confidence in this administration deserves no credence and receives none. And for good reason.

  247. Tex, that Ezra Kline piece is jaw dropping. You hardly overstated it.

    He should be arrested to protect the virtues of the unfair persecution he advocates, right JAL?

    Just twisted.

  248. “federal government inw hich you place all of your faith. How’s that going for you?”

    Really when did I start doing that? I think you have the wrong person. I come from the “don’t trust any one over 30” era, and including the government.

    However, I do believe it is the media – print, tv, radio whose job it is to investigate/research the information whether it comes from the government, media, individuals or the man in the moon. They not doing their job. Then again perhaps they are doing exactly what they have sold their soul to do.

    “What about DOH? Since when is a union required to protect healthcare workers? What special insight would the “union” have that the government not have?”

    The workers best interests.

  249. “the workers’ best interests” are for most unions, the best pay and benefits they can negotiate for their members. I don’t believe it is a union’s job to train its members the proper protocal for operating with dangerous diseases. That duty belongs to the hospital,universities, health department, and the government. Union leaders are bureaucrats, not doctors.Therefore, unionization or not has little bearing on nurses training. and without further documentation, it is for this discussion a non sequetar.

    The average hospital anywhere in the United States would have experienced similar problems. Two patients were sent to Omaha for a reason. It was only one of four hospitals in the US with the proper training and security system to treat and contain infections such as Ebola. We have a total of 11 hospital beds so equipped. For the rest there will be varied mistakes and higher risk of infection during a learning process,.

    This is one more example of the Obama administration’s detachment from its duty to cope with events threatening the United States.

    I believe Mr. Duncan’s fiance lives in Texas. He was staying with family and or friends. Duncan was a welder who quit his job before he flew to the US. That implies he was planning to be here for awhile.

  250. many name brand “Liberals” believe you’ve jumped the shark defending Ezra Klein’s recent take.

    I don’t know why you’re not getting this. I don’t agree with Klein’s ultimate conclusion. I just think you ignored how conflicted HE was in getting there.

  251. frankly, because there’s no precedent to measure the potential danger.

    I don’t know what you mean by this. Do you mean the spread is unprecedented? There have been African Ebola outbreaks since, I believe 1974.

  252. We would have a hard time closing or borders to stop African travelers since most enter the US via air line connections in Europe.

    Actually there are zero commercial direct flights from those African countries to the US. ZERO.

  253. The most galling to me is the typical blame casting/avoidance as the immediate reaction. Look at the HuffPo KOS commentary from the apologists.

    Your comment belies your premise. You’re in bed with the blame casters, particularly the GOP ones. Huff Po and Kos fall in the category of apologists. Name me one blame caster that disgusts you.

    BTW I also enjoy BiC’s visits but the comment you applauded didn’t say anything substantive.

  254. James you misread Lurker. She is not saying unions train. But she is saying that nurses’ complaints are apparently getting a more sympathetic ear at the union as opposed to the hospital admin office.

    Unions are always there to hold management feet to the fire. That has always involved wages AND WORKING CONDITIONS.

  255. . We have a total of 11 hospital beds so equipped. For the rest there will be varied mistakes and higher risk of infection during a learning process,

    Well said James and right on the mark.

  256. “Name me one blame caster that disgusts you.”

    I’ll give you two: MSNBC and JAL, and anyone else that repeats the stupid democrat lie that Republicans are at fault for not expending tax increases, then calling them spending cuts, then claiming causation with the administration’s incompetence. Are you familiar with that line of shit? Of course, for the gullible Obama zombies that don’t bother with rational cause and effect analysis, think of all that could’ve been done with the funds lost in Solyndra, DOJ involvement with Trayvon and Ferguson or spent studying shrimp on wheels or why lesbians are fat.


    “BTW I also enjoy BiC’s visits but the comment you applauded didn’t say anything substantive.”

    Yooohoooo. . . . I said, “[his] last post at [his] place is a good one.

  257. “But she is saying that nurses’ complaints are apparently getting a more sympathetic ear at the union as opposed to the hospital admin office.”

    But the nurses’ union complaints apparently are not (see Tigre’s link).

  258. “But she is saying that nurses’ complaints are apparently getting a more sympathetic ear at the union as opposed to the hospital admin office.”

    She did? Proof for the union assertion please. I have relatives that are nurses and make no such observation whatsoever.

    I think JAL is speaking in platitudes as a misdirected shot at republican controlled Texas. I think you misread her/his comment or are trying to improve it.

  259. Whoops: “not expending tax increases” = “continuing annual spending increases” (known to a liberal as a spending cut).

  260. “I don’t know why you’re not getting this. I don’t agree with Klein’s ultimate conclusion. I just think you ignored how conflicted HE was in getting there.”

    WTF? If true, that makes it even worse.

    Kline is a douche. Tex called it right. You? Not so much.

  261. Yooohoooo. . . . I said, “[his] last post at [his] place is a good one.

    Then you should have left it at that. Your comment left the distinct impression BiC had also said SOMETHING here, which sadly he didn’t.

    How bout the GOP folks who actually blame Obama for the current Ebola crisis – patently ridiculous.

    P.S. Love your new habit of separating points with a line divider. I may start mimicking that. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. 🙂

  262. “Then you should have left it at that. Your comment left the distinct impression BiC had also said SOMETHING here, which sadly he didn’t.”

    Your comment leaves the direct impression you’ve been eating paint chips.


    The line divider is only for you. I live to give. Sine you’re not too good at following comments, I don’t want you drawing impressions, distinct or otherwise.

    And I see how that worked. 🙄

  263. I think JAL is speaking in platitudes as a misdirected shot at republican controlled Texas. I think you misread her/his comment or are trying to improve it.

    I think you’re conflating two separate points she was making. First, that unions address the working conditions of their members. Second, that TX ain’t great with health care for the poor.

  264. Sine you’re not too good at following comments, I don’t want you drawing impressions, distinct or otherwise.

    And I see how that worked. 🙄

    When I’m in a reasonably good mood your snark makes me chuckle. And thanks for the eye roll. You know how hard it is for me to detect your sarcasm.

  265. “I think you’re conflating two separate points she was making. First, that unions address the working conditions of their members. Second, that TX ain’t great with health care for the poor.”

    Please stop. You’re killing me. There’s no fixing and unfounded b.s. KOS-quality talking point.

    (see how I stuck to the new rules by attacking the comment instead of the moron repeating it?).

  266. Yes, unions address the working conditions of their members, but I don’t think training to deal with diseases such as Ebola are included. I would need a comparison of union and non- union hospitals levels of training with a record of Union spokespeoples’ demands for extra training over the past year or so before anyone convinces me I am wrong.

    This situation is not Obama’s fault, but his administration shares part of the blame for our mistakes. Money which was intended to upgrade our ability to fight epidemics was diverted to other projects. It is just one more example of Obama’s poor management style.

  267. “LOL I’m not so much right or I’m not so much a douche?”

    😆 😆

    Well. . . again, under the new rules, I shall refrain from answering. 😆

  268. Money which was intended to upgrade our ability to fight epidemics was diverted to other projects.

    No. Money was flushed down the toilet by the sequester.

    Worst congress evah!

  269. How bout the GOP folks who actually blame Obama for the current Ebola crisis – patently ridiculous.

    Which crisis? The utterly preventable infection of two health care workers in Texas, or the fact that Federal officials are talking out both sides of their mouths, and sending soldiers over there with 4 whole hours of training to “fight” Ebola, but not to fight barbarians in Syria and Iraq who could benefit from their particular skill set.

    Between this and enterovirus68, American citizens have been unnecessarily put at risk, and some have died. I didn’t think that this President could show more contempt for those he “rules”, but apparently, he could. Without trying too hard.

  270. No. Money was flushed down the toilet by the sequester.

    Yeah, that money that the CDC spend on tranny beauty contests and “origami” condoms was TOTALLY a good use of tax payer dollars. And it fits so neatly into the CDC’s stated mission, too:

    “CDC works 24/7 to protect America from health, safety and security threats, both foreign and in the U.S. Whether diseases start at home or abroad, are chronic or acute, curable or preventable, human error or deliberate attack, CDC fights disease and supports communities and citizens to do the same.

    CDC increases the health security of our nation. As the nation’s health protection agency, CDC saves lives and protects people from health threats. To accomplish our mission, CDC conducts critical science and provides health information that protects our nation against expensive and dangerous health threats, and responds when these arise.”

  271. The sequester was Obama’s idea. If administrators were really worried about a shortage of money, they would have prioritized their spending to better finance their mission instead of wasting money on other projects which deviated from their mission.

    The 2014 Waste Book said that the NIH spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on determining if marriages are happier if wives calm down fast. NIH spent over a million dollars to understand why lesbians get fat.

    The wasteful spending and mismanagement pre dates Obama. Now that he is president, it is his responsibility.

    So, yes, money that was intended to fight diseases was used for other purposes.l

  272. sending soldiers over there with 4 whole hours of training to “fight” Ebola,

    I saw a soldier on TV today who made it very clear he wasn’t there to fight Ebola. It’s good he understands the mission even if you don’t.

  273. First, BiC as I pointed out earlier there is no “there to here”. There are no direct commercial flights.

    Second, as has been mentioned before, Duncan planned his trip before he got sick, and by all accounts, flew asymptomatic.

    I’ll begrudgingly nod to Tex’s assertion that his being turned away the first time (from the hospital) was not gross neglect but his handling upon his return was.

    Now if you wanna bash CDC for not telling that second nurse to stay off that plane, I have no argument with you.

  274. Wow is that one getting old. BiC a better comment from you would have been: “what does it say when the POTUS BYPASSING a fundraiser to do his job, makes headlines?”

    Your comment, simplistic as usual, doesn’t seem to acknowledge that the Prez cancelled fundraising trips this week.

    1. We know where foreign travelers are coming from. That’s the point of a passport.

    2. Oh, I could bash the CDC for so very, very much. But considering that their primary focus has been protecting a political agenda first and the health of American citizens a very distant third, behind spending taxpayer money on excessively stupid and trivial stuff.

  275. Wow. THIS week? You mean the engines on OUR aircraft and limos actually got the chance to cool off?

    I actually joked about his stopping them earlier this week on Facebook. Without golf and pressing the flesh at $32k a plate dinners, he might actually get bored enough to attend daily intelligence briefings, if only to show those tasked with preparing them how smart he is…you know, how ISIS isn’t Islamic, and how Ebola means stimulating the economy by hiring screeners at select airports, etc.

  276. We know where foreign travelers are coming from. That’s the point of a passport.

    I’ve heard this very intuitively obvious point before but it is getting pushback as erroneous. Folks are saying that breaking the trip into sections can evade detection.

    Further, as I pointed out earlier, the virus has no passport. If the infected fly ANYWHERE and transmit the virus to a non-African traveler, we are still screwed.

    Frankly I classify the travel ban as akin to the Japanese internment camps. There are some who always believe short term restriction of liberty has benefits that outweigh long term consequences. Or to put it another way, Americans are addicted to the quick fix.

  277. I’ve heard this very intuitively obvious point before but it is getting pushback as erroneous. Folks are saying that breaking the trip into sections can evade detection.

    That’s why you get nifty stamps in your passport when you enter a country.

    AND, when you come here on a visa, we KNOW where you were when you applied for it.

    Further, as I pointed out earlier, the virus has no passport. If the infected fly ANYWHERE and transmit the virus to a non-African traveler, we are still screwed.

    Except that other countries and national airlines HAVE stopped their flights. Not all, but some. A few more cases and you’ll see air carriers doing it on their own, because their insurance carriers will start putting that pressure on them.

    Frankly I classify the travel ban as akin to the Japanese internment camps. There are some who always believe short term restriction of liberty has benefits that outweigh long term consequences. Or to put it another way, Americans are addicted to the quick fix.

    So the Brits and the Frogs are rrrrrrraaaaaaccciist!!!!11!! now? Good to know.

    Who’s “liberty” are you interested in protecting? Foreign nationals who deliberately endanger American citizens to come here to die?

    It’s less about a “quick fix” than it is about taking prudent measures.

    Your heat bill may be outrageous in the winter, and your windows might be drafting when the wind blows, but shutting the front door does a metric assload to help you keep the heat in the house, and cold out.

  278. “There are some who always believe short term restriction of liberty”

    So not allowing people in our country is akin to Japanese internment camps (I bet 5 bucks you heard that somewhere else).

    And you of all people now want to start whining about liberty? Not for Americans of course. But for people in Liberia?

    Europe and Asia should stop people from Liberia et al from traveling right now. Not just us. America should lead the way.

    Lets help them get better. Not help them spread it all over the globe.

    And you are right. Take America out of the equation. You seem OK with letting them come to America because you are OK with it spreading else where. “Why not us”, is your argument. Yet half the globe are 3rd world shit holes ripe for this disease to kill them by the….dare I say millions.

    Containment.

    Of course its not fool proof. But f this disease keeps spiraling out of control in West Africa we will be forced to stop all travel anyways. Why not now?

  279. “I don’t believe it is a union’s job to train its members the proper protocol for operating with dangerous diseases.”

    Correct …BUT. The union would push for the hospital to provide the correct equipment, proper containment and disposal of medical waste, proper procedures, proper training put in place to protect heath care workers. Many hospitals unfortunately are more interested in the money than their employees and fail to provide some things. I volunteered approx. 2000 hr. in a local hospital so I do have some knowledge on this subject.

    The Doctors w/o Borders have treated 9000 Ebola patients and had 16 of theirs infected. THP hospital had 1 Ebola patient and two infected. To my knowledge Ebola is not airborne. They should have been protecting themselves in at least the same manner as treating an HIV/AIDS patient or Hep C or any other infectious disease.


    “I’ll give you two: MSNBC and JAL, and anyone else that repeats the stupid democrat lie that Republicans are at fault for not expending tax increases, then calling them spending cuts, then claiming causation with the administration’s incompetence.

    I said that? Really? When?


    “I think JAL is speaking in platitudes as a misdirected shot at republican controlled Texas. I think you misread her/his comment or are trying to improve it.”

    I would strongly suggest you stick with your day job until you prefect your mind reading skills.


    “(see how I stuck to the new rules by attacking the comment instead of the moron repeating it?).”

    I too stuck to the rules and did not once call you – an assh*le who reads only to find fault whether one actually exists.

  280. Lurker, I agree hospitals which must be run like businesses cut corners when they can. Until now, it wouldn’t be cost effective to more than rudementarily prepare each hospital to cope with a deadly epidemic. It is more efficient to evacuate such people to regional centers which are designed to treat very sick patients.

    I will change my mind if you can document the efforts of nurses unions V non-union staff to persuade hospitals to upgrade facilities treating deadly infectious diseases and compare their successes and failures with each other. Are unionized hospitals better prepared than the others?

    I agree it is odd that well-trained doctors without borders still suffered some casualities. Some may have gotten careless, and we may not entirely understand how Ebola is transmitted. One scientist said virus in spray after a sneeze might stay viable for days.

    Cudos for your volunteer work.

  281. What new rules?

    Yeah, BIC has a talent for metaphors. I miss that man.

    I didn’t understand the con position to travel restrictions even after Alfie tried but now I do. Of course. It’s because it makes sense. And it’s racist.

    That line thing is badass.

  282. I happen to agree with James that unless the numbers get too big, we should send these patients to the three hospitals that specialize. We should also preemptively bring a handful of additional hospitals on board.

  283. Well, JAL, why don’t you rise to the occasion and show us your evidence that unions would have damn thing to do with it. I showed you where the unions were complaining that the administration wasn’t setting or communicating guidelines. You answer in. . . yet again. . . platitudes.

    Yeah. Mind reading. Good one. And you don’t mean what you say. 😆

  284. BiC, the passport part of the travel ban has already been addressed right here. It was the point. Rutherford chooses to ignore it to argue another point about direct flights, no doubt an MSNBC bit.

  285. no doubt an MSNBC bit.

    Yes butt brain. I did learn there are no direct flights from Liberia by seeing it discussed on MSNBC. It’s not a “bit”. It’s a fact.

    When Rabbit extracts the Abe Lincoln from his ass, would you kindly shove it up yours?

  286. The Japanese internment camps analogy is too dumb to come from somewhere else.

    R, that’s really lame. I can’t say, though, that I find it strange that you find parallels. It’s your mindset.

  287. “Yes butt brain. I did learn there are no direct flights from Liberia by seeing it discussed on MSNBC. It’s not a “bit”. It’s a fact.”

    Then apply it to the actual discussion here about banning passengers, not “direct flights” for God’s sake. Your earthshaking observation has already been addressed. Right here. 🙄

    Oh yeah. Racism.

  288. R, that’s really lame. I can’t say, though, that I find it strange that you find parallels.

    It’s your mindset.US citizens and legal residents being rounded up and incarcerated without due process is exactly the same as preventing foreigners from legally traveling here, Tigre.

    Everyone knows this.

  289. Oh, I am sure he’d be consistent in opposing a ban on non-direct flights from Tokyo to the US during WWII. Wouldn’t want to infringe on the rights of the Japanese or the Germans to travel here. 😆

  290. R, that’s really lame.

    Only if you don’t really THINK about it.

    If we could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the travel ban would make matters worse in the effected countries, there are some who would still demand it. Isolation of the “threat” gives Americans comfort just like it did in the 1940’s.

    I’m not drawing an exact parallel. I’m talking about mindset. You of course are incapable of capturing a conceptual argument and take everything literally.

  291. “I’m not drawing an exact parallel. I’m talking about mindset. You of course are incapable of capturing a conceptual argument and take everything literally.”

    Oh, and here I thought you were arguing why it was improper — not the mindset of seeking to avoid a threat that requires real THINKING.

    Hey, since your doing all the heavy thinking around here, have you contemplated the parallels between Japanese internment and no-fly lists? There’s a mindset at play there.

  292. “If we could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the travel ban would make matters worse in the effected countries, there are some who would still demand it.”

    And there’s others that would oppose it without proof. There’s a name that comes to mind, but I choose to observe the rules and let you guess who I might be referring to.

  293. Rutherford, again, like your hero on the Presidential putting green, you fundamentally misunderstand the role of the US government. Unlike your hero, you aren’t eyeing your next achievement in the neverending quest to push the limits of the Peter Principle. He may well land a job with the Useless Nitwits, which would be one more reason to push them into Turtle Bay and shoot anyone who tried to swim towards shore. It isn’t for the government to worry about “making things worse” in other countries when its primary duty isn’t to import deadly pathogens here, but to STOP them from coming here.

    Again, THINK. Refer to the mission statement for the CDC which I helpfully quoted above. Nowhere in that statement is any concern about “making things worse” in other countries. In fact, if you did some basic research on how nations, including our own, reacted and considered reacting to the SARS epidemic, and the lessons that we learned, especially when we tried to apply the same screening methods that we use now in reaction to swine flu concerns, it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to figure out that our current response is essentially whistling past the graveyard and hoping that everything you were told about Walpurgis Night isn’t true.

  294. So now the “civilized” world is to ban travel of ALL PERSONS from affected countries?
    The CDC provides alerts and compile information as the leading manner in which they fulfill their mission statements. USA hospitals and the U.S. public health entities are supposed to be capable,Texas Presb. was supposed to be capable. The fail isn’t on CDC.

    The USA is having a Wellesian 1938 moment. People are getting ridiculously hysterical over what they’re getting from the media and are losing the faculties they otherwise pride themselves on.

  295. I didn’t know Wellesian was a word.

    Alfie, is there any threat that would cause you to think banning “ALL PERSONS” from a region would make sense?

  296. Alfie, putting aside common sense, what scientific protocol says “Let’s allow the introduction of an incredibly lethal pathogen into an environment where it doesn’t exist, a pathogen that is only studied either in its natural environment, or in a BSL4 lab, because “we can handle it”?”

    The response thus far has been a combination of arrogance and daring chaos to do its thing.

    The hubris that looks around and says “we can handle it” when intended sites around the country may have 11 or 12 isolation rooms, and the disease has an R number of 2…for now, is pretty startling.

    When we see what the “experts” allowed to happen with the 2nd nurse should clue people into the hard truth that 11 or 12 rooms at facilities scattered around the country aren’t going to be enough if Murphy gets too many more chances to be part of the equation.

    And if nature does its thing and mutates it to something airborne, like Ebola Reston? Yeah…

  297. Duncan apparently made plans to fly to the United States before he was sick. His fiance was here. He quit his job. However, once exposed, he lied about it How many of us would have lied to exchange the possibility of certain death for a hope that his infection might be successfully treated?

    I also worry about Murphy as BIG does. A guest on Coast to Coast said the magic number is around 1,000. Our health care system will begin to deteriorate with 1,000 patients because of the large number of trained staff required to treat each sick person. Someone else mused about the Murphy’s influence if the disease spreads to Central or South America.

    Dr. Nancy Snyderman is another example. She in her superior wisdom broke a quarantine because she knew she felt fine.

    Recall how farmers fought Asian Soybean Rust. It was so virialent that a Brazilian farmer said he would spray a neighbor’s infected field if he couldn’t find the neighbor because it was better to stop a fire before it burned the whole crop. Suppose we entered the realm of science fiction with Ebola spreading as fast as a cold and we faced horrible choices.

  298. “JAL. Read this before speaking further… 🙄 I can assure you Duncan was trying to make it to America to be treated…he knew he was at risk and lied about it.”

    October 2, 2014 – Well, if Fox news reports it and Tex believes it then it must be true.

    I guess he really screwed up by going to Dallas, eh?

  299. I can assure you Duncan was trying to make it to America to be treated…he knew he was at risk and lied about it.

    Wow are you silly sometimes. Did you bother to READ what JAL posted and you quoted? She said SICK, not EXPOSED.

    He wasn’t sick when he left Liberia. He lied about exposure because he didn’t want his plans, made in advance of exposure, to be ruined. He didn’t come here for a cure. He came to be with his fiancé.

    I’m guessing you draw comfort from blaming the victim instead of the cowboys incapable of saving him.

    LOL I don’t remember if it was Jon Stewart, Colbert or Maher but one of them said it is indeed time to build that fence — except we need to build it NORTH of Texas. 😆

    Note to JAL in case you haven’t noticed. Folks here argue with what they want you to have said, not what you actually said.

  300. Nancy Snyderman should be fired by MSNBC. She is their chief medical expert and is supposed to set an example. Her breach of quarantine was incredibly irresponsible as it is totally about putting others at risk, not herself.

    I initially didn’t like her. I warmed to her and now I’m back where I started.

  301. I agree about Dr. Nancy Snyderman. She should be fired. I used to like her too as you did.

    “blaming the victim” is an educational process. In Vietnam after a soldier was killed or wounded, a platoon leader gathered his men together and explained what their fallen compatriot did wrong to get himself blown away. Blaming a friend for his own injury or death hours after he was gone was cruel on one level. But it also gave the men a better sense of control over their situation. They were not pawns dependent entirely on luck. They, to a degree created their own luck by watching for unusual signs and by staying focused.

    I did the same for myself after a pickup truck threw me 200 feet and after the train hit us.

    The same applies to any one who was exposed to Ebola. Each person who got sick did something wrong. In some cases others might learn from their mistakes.

    I’m judging Duncan by what most of us would have done, We would have lied and gotten the Hell out, even though his travel plans were weeks or months old..We don’t know if the quality of treatment in the Dallas hospital was inferior or if the diseases had progressed too far before Duncan received treatment.

  302. We don’t know if the quality of treatment in the Dallas hospital was inferior or if the diseases had progressed too far before Duncan received treatment.

    Or maybe, he would have died regardless. 70% mortality indicates that for some people, the course of treatment isn’t going to matter.

  303. Alfie, is there any threat that would cause you to think banning “ALL PERSONS” from a region would make sense?
    I think you need bigger numbers and more actual danger. Airborne pathogen is a good tipping point.

    As for treating Ebola in the USA. The luxury class isolation rooms that are being used are excellent choices for the threat at hand. They are not necessary for treatment so every isolation room in the USA is adequate for the treatment of an Ebola patient. If you treat a complicated MTB or HIV patient you can treat an Ebola patient.
    Ebola is a virus that many non-government experts believe has no real reason to mutate or is likely to do so at anytime soon. Add those “government hacks” who outside of the right wing nut circle of fear are seen as being actually pretty good at what they do and theorize and you get a sober picture that Ebola isn’t the threat worth pissing your pants about.

    Quite simply the politics of this makes me sad. How quickly we forget whether it was West Nile, S.A.R.S. or the Swine Flu gaffe the hysterics just don’t help the cause.

  304. Rutherford, you’re too confused to see that my response what in reference to JAL’s comments about my comment in that delaying his treatment, Duncan probably destroyed his chances of being cured – the treatment he would have received in Liberia is not too terribly different than what he would have received here. Saline and sugar water in effect. And I have little doubt Duncan knew his chances of infection were quite high. If Duncan were white, you wouldn’t have an issue. For once, it gives you an opportunity to deflect from all the problems you have helped cause by electing a wholly irresponsible moron for President, accompanied by a buffoonish staff that has become the talk of the globe about historic mismanagement. That’s all your sniveling is here.

    Here’s what pisses me off about weak people like you and JAL. You’ll excuse Barack Obama for a multitude of relevant and egregious sins, everything from scandals to gross incompetency that are so visible, even the BO lapdog MSM is finding it difficult to cover. All of this was transparently predictable in the 2008 Platitude Presidential campaign when it all too obvious Barack Obama a malignant narcissist and charlatan. Only stupid, hoodwinked didn’t recognize it – unfortunately, that’s more than half of America.

    But a hospital misdiagnosis a disease in an emergency room that has never been seen in the U.S. because a man is running a fever? RACISM! CLASSISM! PERFECTION IS DEMANDED! This is not Dallas’ finest, most renown hospital by a long shot – it services the inner city and outlying, predominately black regions of Dallas proper like Duncanville. These are the hospitals in every big city who serve the transient and poor.

    I would call you a hypocrite of mountain sized proportions. But that would assume I thought you actually capable of a bit of self-reflection of something more than say waving an Obama #1 Big Finger with our ‘mediocre’ President.

    This is pitiful…

  305. R, I just hit “shift” and “-” about 1/3 of the way across the comment screen, and it appears as a page break across the entire screen. Let’s see how it goes. . .

    now. . .


    I really think you claim to see things in JAL’s comments that she herself doesn’t see or intend but goes with to avoid looking foolish. Her points and bent are simplistic and obvious as day.

    Frankly you lauding JAL while calling BiC shallow is pretty laughable. You might not agree with him, but BiC unquestionably gives a great deal of thought to his posts and rarely have any ammunition for a cogent retort. Stated differently, BiC’s posts aren’t shallow, your responses top them are.

    Still waiting on JAL’s evidence of the union assertion you find so enlightening.

  306. @ Tex would you give any credence that the triage history should’ve/did note he was from Liberia?
    I’ve had a lot of ER exposure and have seen things get missed quite innocently,other things caught with Sherlockian (you like that one ET?) flair and still other stuff either caught farther down the road with a tirade following to basically the classic Homer Simpson “D’Oh”! moment.

  307. More on travel bans so we’re all on the same page.
    First we mean ban as in total and complete refusal to allow persons from place X to board a plane coming here.
    The ban is to be enforced by ?????

  308. The ban is to be enforced by ?????

    Thank you. I was thinking the same thing. How would we get every international airport to enforce such a ban?

    We asked Bibi to shut his airport down — minor problem of BOMBS being dropped nearby — and he said screw you (with Mike Bloomberg cheering beside him). That was clear and imminent danger. How we gonna get folks to ban passengers over the possibility they might be infected?

  309. We asked Bibi to shut his airport down — minor problem of BOMBS being dropped nearby — and he said screw you (with Mike Bloomberg cheering beside him). That was clear and imminent danger. How we gonna get folks to ban passengers over the possibility they might be infected?

    Good grief. Where to start?

    1. Don’t pretend that safety was a primary concern. President Sub-Par wanted his Paloswinian buddies to get some breathing room.

    2. In that case, President Sub-Par had zero problem shutting down the air travel. He used his pen and his phone, and it got done.

    3. Even accepting the fiction that “safety” was the primary concern, bombs are a threat THERE. Infectious disease is a threat wherever the infected or those travelling from areas of infection go.

  310. I don’t want to go down the Israel rabbit hole with Alice but BiC I think you’re wrong
    First off the international history at the time of the FAA ban was seeing other planes going down. You can say it was superficial but the reality is the USA wasn’t risking one of theirs.
    The only folks who saw the temporary ban as pro Palestinian was neo con flaks like Doug Feith.
    The order only applied to US airlines which in the case of Ebola is all ready in place by default.

  311. “First we mean ban as in total and complete refusal to allow persons from place X to board a plane coming here.”

    What would we do if countries decided to ban travel from the US?

  312. JAL my comment was meant to have question mark not a period.
    On a side note there are countries that official US policy amounts to you not being allowed to go and if you do you face issues. North Korea is a good example.

  313. Also we forbid air logistics companies based in the USA from going to a number of countries (Iran) and others are choices made in conjunction with or without government input (ex Sierra Leonne)

  314. “What would we do if countries decided to ban travel from the US?”

    Ummmm. I guess we wouldn’t travel there. I heard the beaches in Cuba are nice and North Korea has world class. . . nah, They got nothing. Ever been?

    Point?

  315. What would we do if other countries banned travel from the US?

    It has already happened with farm products including livestock and grain. Our corn was banned in many countries about 11 years ago because traces of genetically altered seed was accidently mixed with grain meant for human consumption.

    If other countries banned human travel as they did agricultural shipments it would be for good reason with the world ultimately protected from our disease outbreak.

    The ag product trade ban cost us a lot of money as would such a travel ban. If the US was sanctioned, I suspect other countries would be too, and by that time, we would be feeling civil unrest and a major recession. Some of our trade products might also be banned with proper levels of hysteria.

    A large country as the US would be more self-sufficient than many nations would be.

  316. It has already happened with farm products including livestock and grain. Our corn was banned in many countries about 11 years ago because traces of genetically altered seed was accidently mixed with grain meant for human consumption.

    Starlink corn.

    “Unexpectedly” growing among food stocks in latin America.

    Experts. TOP. MEN. All.

  317. @ Tex would you give any credence that the triage history should’ve/did note he was from Liberia?

    Possibly, Alfie. I’m not entirely excusing the quality of care. The precautions for the nurses treating the patient are inexcusable and administration at the hospital reads like they should have their butt kicked for incompetence, then fired.

    But I have a question. Do we have any idea if the hospital actually “knew” Duncan was from Liberia, or did he lie and tell them he was uninsured and from Duncanville, TX, the first go around? And if not, would the admittance nurse necessarily be able to link Liberia to Ebola, being this is the first recorded case in the U.S.? It’s not like Duncanville, TX, is the Big Apple and they would have been on the lookout for the Ebola contagion.

    I’m convinced had the man gone to Southwest, this would have been caught at the source. But that’s also one of the regions top hospitals.

    I think it’s pretty unfair to blame an emergency room nurse on negligence, when there’s never been a recorded case of it anywhere in the U.S. except for extreme cases of the doctor and nurse flown in from Liberia and sent to Emory.

    Once again, I think Rutherford is demonstrating his glaring double standards…

  318. Point/Ban

    We had 2 patients with Ebola who survived and one who died. But we knew they had Ebola and we handled them properly.

    Then we had an “unknown” case come and we handled it badly. Patient died. Two nurses were infected. How many were exposed?

    If you look at this from the outside you could easily believe the USA is not capable of containing/treating an Ebola out break. A country(s) could decide not to allow travelers from the USA entry for fear of spreading/infecting their citizens with Ebola. And ban travel to the US.

    The whole reaction/fear of Ebola is out of hand; passed common sense or logic. Friends have just returned from Ireland and no one they spoke to is fearful compared to so many people in this country.

    The beaches in Cuba are beautiful. The people are very gracious and friendly but guarded.

  319. “The beaches in Cuba are beautiful. The people are very gracious and friendly but guarded.”

    If you saw them first hand since about 1963, you must either not be a US citizen, there for a special purpose, or there illegally. I know a number that got there and back under the last category.

    Now what would prevent any sovereign country from rejecting US travelers (land or air) if it wanted to — or vice versa? Is this line supposed to evoke some kind of outrage over non-existent double standard?

  320. “The whole reaction/fear of Ebola is out of hand; passed common sense or logic.”

    Perhaps. Funny how untrustworthy administration and a deadly contagion will do that. Kind of reminds of Obama’s speeches about Bush’s lack of preparedness for the avian flu in 2005. So much panic, so little time.

  321. “Nancy Snyderman should be fired by MSNBC. She is their chief medical expert and is supposed to set an example.”

    She just had to have “a bowl-a” soup.

    Zing!

  322. alfie – I am aware there are countries we can not travel to. Although you can travel to Cuba. One way is through Venezuela. My remark was more about the US thinking their sh*t doesn’t stink.

  323. In response to my question, Alfie said, “I think you need bigger numbers and more actual danger. Airborne pathogen is a good tipping point.”

    If you mean bigger numbers here, I guess my next question would be, “why wait?”

    If you mean bigger numbers in west Africa, I have to wonder at what point you think you’ve reached them followed by another, “why wait?”

    With that said, I suspect you’re right that the whole thing is overblown and all of the high pitched rhetoric and czar appointments etc., politically motivated/uncalled for. As a total dumb dumb, I can say that I place little trust in the administration’s willingness/ability to treat any threat with candor and therefore give it the same weight as the shrill right wing media machines. I guess I will be an observer and worrier like everyone else and if that makes me someone that is irrationally hysterical, so fucking be it. I still haven’t heard any good rationale to oppose a travel ban, only sophistry. I’m sure it exists. Google hasn’t helped me find anything persuasive though. I sure as hell don’t care what MSNBC’s or any other left wing media’s outlet’s take on it is. Their blather is just as suspect and shrill as any right wing nut job outlet.

  324. “Although you can travel to Cuba. One way is through Venezuela.”

    Not legally. I know you can get there through some of the Caribbean vacation destinations if you wanted to or sail your boat there too. So?

    Oh yeah. American arrogance. As I thought. Yawn.

  325. In Liberia alone the case rate % is .10 and if you think it as just being based in Monrovia it is .56 of the populations,
    I’ll readily concede being one of the 4k + is a suck deal and that deaths over 2k is eye opening but from a totally detached epidemiological standpoint our reality is better than we think it is.
    So before I’d close the place down I would need more because of what truly closing the place down entails.
    I’ve been stressing the concept of a ban because to me the word means something. If its worth not letting anyone out well theres no reason to put people in either.
    Now if we get people and examine them and even quarantine them thats different. I also think we could and should find it in our national interest to make sure sick folks aren’t coming. As for well or asymptomatic folks exposed or not I think theres legitimate ways to deal with that too.
    Airlines are not government entities,they don’t really have the authority to ban folks if nations don’t make the call. Right now Europe isn’t doing that and I don’t think they’d allow us to leave people without good reason in their airports

  326. “If you saw them first hand since about 1963.”

    Ferry service to Cuba ended in 1958. I saw Batista in a motorcade traveling through Palm Beach.

    My daughter visited Cuba in 2007. Whether it was illegal or not at the time she traveled ….. no one was checking or stopping you.

    It is no longer illegal to travel to Cuba, check the Dept of State site. Today you must travel with cash and if you get into trouble there is no embassy to turn to for help.

    But no I never went to Cuba. My mother wanted to take a day trip on the ferry but I would not go with her. If a mother and daughter took a day trip it “would be” for an abortion….this is what kids/people would think.

  327. Need a license issued by the treasury first:

    “Entering Cuban territory, territorial waters or airspace (within 12 miles of the Cuban coast) without prior authorization from the Cuban government may result in arrest or other enforcement action by Cuban authorities. Immigration violators are subject to prison terms ranging from four years for illegal entry or exit to as many as 30 years for aggravated cases of alien smuggling.”

    http://havana.usint.gov/travelling_cuba.html

    Then Cuba shut down visas.

    http://havana.usint.gov/travelling_cuba.html

    I know there’s no real enforcement in Cuba. Nevertheless, there’s a ban.

  328. Yes, BIG it was Star Link Corn, I’m impressed. We won a class action law suit over that fiasco.

    Bjorn Ulvaes is a fully functional businessman and land developer, but he suffers from a condition which has taken away most memories of his ABBA career. –sort of like Obama and his supporters’ memories of the 2005 flu scare El Tigre mentioned. Perhaps the president and others suffering from his affliction should look at old pictures and videos as Bjorn does,

  329. Bjorn said of ABBA’s 1974 Eurovision victory which helped establish their fame “It is like I wasn’t even there.” That’s what Obama angrily says during his latest disasters.

  330. ROTFLMAO Sometimes I do see why MSNBC annoys you guys and gals. I just tuned into Chris Hayes and he has some dweeb blaming … wait for it … Bush for our current climate of fear. And the dude is saying it with a straight face.

    This is the problem with partisan politics. Both sides engage in total absurdity oblivious to how ridiculous their talking points are.

  331. Sometimes you just have to love black folk cos they can strip stuff down to the essentials. Obama was early voting. A woman was voting next to him and her boyfriend actually told Obama “Mr. President don’t touch my girlfriend.” LOL for this dude the POTUS was just another player.

    After reading so much depressing shit about black people in this Jason Wiley book, it was nice to have a chuckle.

  332. Ha. That’s one of the reasons I miss working with black people. Little comments like that. Classic.

    Funny thing is even if Obama didn’t like the comment, he had to yuck it up back or risk doing damage to his soul cred.

  333. R – I think you are taking the wrong lesson from the Jason Riley (not Wiley) book. Here is a man who loves you enough to tell you the truth – something that people who don’t care about you won’t do. They just blow sunshine up your arse and risk nothing. Your Jesse Jackson comes to mind.

    Try to see it in that light because from my perspective, Riley’s right on target.

    Every time someone has told me the uncomfortable truth – instead of a comfortable lie – I have thanked them many years down the road. Every time. When I was in college, a single twenty-minute interview, where a potential employer gave me the unvarnished facts about my qualifications and grades, changed my life. That uncomfortable truth is why I’m sitting here at my home office, in comfort, watching the springtime unfold through my window – instead of running a jack-hammer.

  334. R: “Take your five bucks and shove it up your ass. It’s original.”
    Rutherford!! Is that really you? Bravo!!

    James – You got thrown 200′ from your truck? Are you sure about that? Even at the best angle, 45 degrees, that would take SOME kind of velocity. I don’t have the time to pull out my old algebra book, but I would guess at least 120 kph, maybe more.

  335. “R”, I have to admit I laugh every time I come in for a drink and click on this thread. The title makes giggle…

    It’s the first time since 1975, I’ve actually read balls and Jimmy Carter in the same sentence.

  336. Parker it was one of my nine lives at work.

    Our small son was in a class for talented and gifted, and I had to drive him nine miles to that school. A snow storm was beginning, and I waited at my parents’ house to borrow their car because my wife had already taken our car to the school where she taught. I watched the news while I waited. NBC carried a story about our snowstorm which had affected Denver. A panicked woman stood frozen and screaming as a car unable to stop on the ice hit and knocked her down. “That fool!!” I thought. “If it happened to me, I would move!”

    Heavy wet snow fell and quickly accumulated. The visibility was restricted. We drove the nine miles to the other school, and the janitor told me classes had just been canceled for the day. We drove back to the farm. The Loess Hills rise about 400 feet from the valley and the facing road is pretty steep. The snow was like wet cement, and I lost control of the car. We skidded off the road near the cliff. Our son and I walked down the hill and met a school bus returning kids home. The driver gave us a ride to our farm.

    My father wanted to rescue his car, so we drove back to the hill for a look. He wanted to bring one of our tractors over to pull it onto the road. I voted for a hirered tow truck. As we debated, a car slowly crept up hill with the accelerator at full throttle. Even so the car stalled with wheels spinning. I ran out and began pushing. Slowly the car resumed its slow climb up the road. My father suddenly yelled. “A Car!!” All I could see was a dark out line in the heavy snow. I froze for a moment, but I remembered the foolish woman in Denver. I was determined not to let the same happen to me. I jumped, but I couldn’t move. I was suspended two feet off the ground as the big machine approached. I was even with the radiator cap, but had moved to near the right head light when it hit me.

    The blow was awesome. I flew higher and off to the side. My coat zipper and shirt buttons ripped apart as did my overshoe buckles. When I hit the ground, blood and saliva shot from between my teeth like a garden hose. I didn’t fight the momentum as I rolled over and over for about 200 feet. I later paced it off.Finally, I landed in a road ditch filled with snow which broke my fall.

    The driver was a neighbor who had floored the accelerator as the driver of the car had done. He claimed to be driving at 35 MPH and when he saw me, he applied the breaks and left 8 feet of rubber as he hit me. I think the timing of my jump let me live. Had I stood still as the Denver woman did, my head would have crashed into the highway, and I would have died as my grand father did when a car hit him. Had I stayed suspended in front of the radiator cap, I probably would have surged over the hood and into the windshield. My being in front of the right head light gave me a glancing blow, and my allowing myself to roll expended kinetic energy the pickup had transferred to me. The driver had already applied the breaks, and the pickup was slowing when it hit me, so I have no idea of its actual speed when it hit me. The tires had deposited about four feet of tread on the road at the moment I was hit.

    It took a few minutes for me to decide I was still alive and moveable. I emerged from the road ditch as the two ashen faced men watched. I said I was fine but wanted to go home. Blood coming from my mouth and nose made them nervous. I measured and reported the snow for the weather service, told them my reports might be interrupted because a pickup had just hit me. I reported the accident to the sheriff’s office. I mostly slept for two weeks without seeing a doctor. You tell me why I am still alive after that, Other accidents, and after being hit by a train, I wonder.. My back is messed up from that and other accidents. So is my neck. Sometimes the feeling leaves my left leg, and my right arm goes numb.I can lift heavy objects, but bending down to pick up a sock can be a big mistake.

    I was numb and in a lot of pain in 2005 and I saw a neruosurgeon after an MRI scan. By the time of the appointment I was better. He said “as long as you can stand the pain, don’t ever let a neurosurgeon like me touch your back.

    “That’s it guys, that is all five minutes in and I’m bored again. Ten years of this, and I’m not sure if anybody understands. This one is not for the folks at home. When I look into my (grand daughter’s) eyes, Man you wouldn’t believe the most amazing things that can come from some terrible nights.” Fun Some Nights

  337. “Knowing how absolutely fabulous El Tigre is, I just wanted to extend my condolences on the passing of Oscar de la Renta.”

    Sheeeet. I had to look up who de la Renta was to be sure he was a fashion designer as I suspected.

    Tigre’s either in a suit or grease stained t-shirt and jeans.

  338. I absolutely adore Del La Renta’s run way work!

    Revolutionized the blouse. So sassy.

    My apologies. I forgot how fabulous you were Rabbit.

    Anyone who’s heard Rabbit’s impersonation of a liberal knows just how gay he can sound. If it wouldn’t take me hours to find it, I’d post links to the BlogTalkRadio shows guest starring Rabbit and Gorilla. G was actually my co-host on one installment when my usual sidekick was out sick.

  339. Ok Parker, my evolved position on abortion. Warning: if you can’t hold seemingly contradictory ideas in your head at one time, stop reading now.

    This position has evolved over the years — hell, it has evolved over the past 7 years. The evolution was not influenced by any particular love of the fetus but more by the cavalier attitude of the pro-choice crowd.

    Unless the life of the mother is in danger, termination of pregnancy is morally ambiguous at best and reprehensible at worst. This includes rape, incest and supposedly fetal hopeless cases. No one ASKS to be the product of rape or incest. It shouldn’t be their problem. If the mother can’t figure out how to deal with it, then place the baby for adoption.

    Both James’s granddaughter and I might have been aborted based on initial assessments. If the fetus shows medical abnormalities you run with it and see what happens. Might be real hard. Guess what? Life is hard.

    While rape, incest and prenatal abnormalities make the abortion issue more complex, abortion as birth control has truly come to disgust me. This is not the 1800’s. The pill provides 97% or so assurance against pregnancy. Sloppy sexual practices is not license to stop a developing life. To the pro choice women who want their sexual freedom, I say take the pill or take your chances. You get pregnant, place her or raise her. And guess what? Your bf didn’t put a gun to your head. You didn’t “find yourself pregnant”. (There’s fat grannies history behind that phrase.) Watching Rachel Maddow and guest giggle and gloat over the ability to kill a developing being really crystallized things for me. Totally disgusting.

    With all that said, now so what? How do we legislate around this? The life we want to protect resides inside the living body of an autonomous being. Our friend Alfie talks a lot about sovereignty. What is more sovereign than a woman’s body? How does the government take control in this case? Perhaps there is some precedent with the laws against suicide? Or drug abuse? There, the gov dictates what you can and cannot do with your own body. Do we put women who abort in jail? Most pro-life folks don’t want to confront that.

    Do we want desperate women to terminate pregnancies in the absence of safe medical care? Pro life folks don’t want to answer that either. It also bothers the crap out of me that the same political cohort that opposes abortion won’t lift a finger to help the kid after birth.

    I think legally Roe v Wade is a good legal compromise. The change I’d like to see is a change in national discourse. I want women who equate abortion with birth control to be shunned and shamed. I want abortion viewed as tragic, not some freedom to be celebrated.

    We don’t outlaw cigarettes, yet smoking has lost its social allure. We mustn’t let the pro-choice crowd pervert what should be a national aversion to abortion.

  340. I think legally Roe v Wade is a good legal compromise.

    That’s because you don’t understand why it was bad law. The fact that the Court actually heard the case twice would be your first clue. But in a nutshell:

    1. The Court usurped state authority when it issued the decision. Up until that point, the matter was entirely a state issue, and the decision did not set forth a compelling reason for it to become a matter of Federal Jurisdiction.

    2. The majority’s rationale finding that “The Fourteenth Amendment doesn’t apply because we say it doesn’t apply.” has been rendered more repulsive with our continuing understanding of the process of pregnancy… a fact obvious even to the Court as it was forced to walk back many of its “benchmarks” in subsequent cases. The act of “making it [the legal rationale] out of whole cloth has even been remarked on by left-leaning legal scholars like Lawrence Tribe, who recognize that such tricks are capable of repetition.

    3. Arguably, the Court didn’t even have standing to hear the case, as the issue was moot when the case was heard the second time.

    4. The cry was for providing a process that was safe, rare, and legal. Recent revelations like Gosnell’s charnel house and Planned Murderhood of Texas and Wendy Dildo Davis’ recent crusade against greater safety standards show that we only really have the last.

    5. Do we put women who abort in jail? No. You put the practitioners who are killing the children in jail. For a long time.

  341. BiC I obviously wasn’t shooting for a legal analysis nor would I be capable. I welcome your analysis. My view is (admittedly) more simplistic than yours. I think the only reasonable solution is to make abortion harder to get the further along in pregnancy you are. The rest should be left up to social pressure, i.e. a culture that does not equate abortion with freedom.

  342. Are those questions supposed to be hard?

    Roe v Wade is a number of things but compromise isn’t one of them.

    Which questions in particular? If the issue weren’t complicated, our society would have settled the matter long ago.

    How can an opinion that restricts some abortions and not others, not be considered compromise? Of course Roe v Wade is compromise.

  343. Of course Roe v Wade is compromise.

    Abortion and the unholy alliance with Islam is how I now know for sure that way too much of the Left isn’t just confused and stupid as I once thought; it’s malicious and evil and I believe many of the Left on par with Nazi Germany/Communist Stalin evil. MSNBC is Pravda in drag.

    Only in the warped and twisted mind of a Leftist, would 55,000,000 legalized deaths be considered a compromise. How safe, legal and RARE could not be considered abortion on demand is farcical and sick.

    Back alley abortion was a myth propagated by a former abortionist, now life activist. http://afterabortion.org/2011/the-truth-about-back-alley-abortions/

    No, compromise is what we had, where people in each state decided the issue. The time is coming for America to pay the reaper – the feeling is now palpable. And it will rain on the just and the unjust.

  344. Only in the warped and twisted mind of a Leftist, would 55,000,000 legalized deaths be considered a compromise.

    This isn’t difficult.

    All abortions are illegal OR
    All abortions are legal.

    Everything else, by definition, is compromise.

  345. Rutherford, I don’t know how close you came to be aborted but our grand daughter was in the neighborhood. The world would have been a poorer place without you two.

    Abortion is murder. So is killing a born person. Sometimes murder is necessary, even commendable. I believe that sometimes babies must be aborted, but if they are, the process and aftermath should be treated the same as if a child had died. Destroying a life and disposing of the body as if it was garbage is moral degenderacy. The parents should suffer some emotional cost.

  346. Destroying a life and disposing of the body as if it was garbage is moral degenderacy. The parents should suffer some emotional cost.

    James, I would truly like to think that for 90% of women having abortions there is some emotional cost. We do need to change how we talk about the subject. It seems to me we are hitting a tipping point of women wanting “rights” without responsibilities. It’s another case of women trying to emulate the worst qualities of men.

  347. My brother gave a girl season tickets to the San Diego Padres if the girl he impregnated would get an abortion. She took the deal.

  348. R, you misapprehend the scope of Roe. Had the court upheld the statutory limitation, the issue would then be let to the states. It’s not a “legal” or “illegal” compromise. It could be both.

  349. “My brother gave a girl season tickets to the San Diego Padres if the girl he impregnated would get an abortion. She took the deal.”

    The man “bought off” the woman to abort HIS DNA with season tickets. And the woman is condemned for accepting? He was a cheap SOB putting that little value on a life he helped to create. And so was she…. but he made the offer first.

    Any one thinking of using ATT Wireless for Internet service…save your money and go elsewhere #%^&$*

  350. Rutherford, I agree most women feel emotional pain at least for a little while, and i agree sometimes like killing an adult, abortion is necessary. But some emotional pain isn’t good enough for me. A life which waited for an eternity for a lottery ticket was thrown away. I wish both parents would feel the pain we felt when our tiny baby died.I want them to suffer and to mark milestones such as graduations and proms the baby never had for the rest of their lives. Killing a fetus or baby is mass murder.Their potential descendents die with them. Each death destroys thousands of future generations which will not be born. Emotional pain as back ground noise isn’t good enough for me no matter what the righteous motive.

    I agree with Lurker. That man started it. I hope his DNA doesn’t pass on the next generation,

  351. JAL,

    Cox Communications is stable, but it ought to be. They keep jacking up the internet rates anywhere from 5-20%. I called them last time and told them they are one step from being terminated. I just haven’t been able to find a good alternative, and I refuse to conduct business with AT&T.

  352. All abortions are illegal OR
    All abortions are legal.

    Everything else, by definition, is compromise.

    Exactly which abortions are illegal where the fetus isn’t viable? So I guess what you really meant to say was there is no compromise unless the baby can live outside the mother’s womb? WHAT A GREAT COMPROMISE… 🙄

  353. The Washington Times: :”Ebola vaccine abandoned in 2008 after showing promise in trials.” A new vaccine was tested on Charles Sullivan and others in 2003. The experiment subjects received $900 each.The National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases conducted tests in 2003, 2006, and 2008, but until recently no tests were conducted i during Obama’s administrations. Some lying bastards have blamed Republican spending cuts and the sequester but our discussion here has shown those charges to be lies. We know the real reason is Obama’s changing priorities.,

    Defining fetus viability is a moving target. Our daughter knows parents of a baby born at 22 weeks. He still has medical problems, but he is doing fine at home. Such things didn’t happen when the Roe V Wade case was decided.

  354. A nurse who watched a late term abortion recalled that the baby was still alive and thrown into a toilet where it tried to swim. Dr. Leroy Carhart who served in our medical squadren likes to dismember the baby and suck out part of the brain before the baby is entirely outside, maybe to diminish the risk of a survivor.

  355. re Ebola vaccine there are deeper truths and the bits of information like that offered by the WaTimes are incomplete and misleading and furthers the politicization of an issue that should have common ground.
    NIH et al only provides partial funding on the the drugs as it were. Truth is when they release research to the private sector they fully expect the private sector pharmaceuticals to ante up. Truth be told from what I’ve seen the research they released that lead to the 2003 trial ended up in the files of a company who then contracted with a Swiss company that was then bought by GSK (UK) who is trying to fast track trials.
    Also other research that was released is what helped the pharmas to develop zMapp and its relatives.
    I get the bureaucrats at NIH talking smack but the trimming started in 2003 and its pretty clear what most Fed $$ cash between 2001-2004 was earmarked for.
    Just like AIDS when good research gets farmed out to Big Pharma things get lost because Big Pharma wants and needs to see $$$$$$$ at the end of the tunnel. Back in the day with HIV and now with Ebola the main demographic doesn’t not instill $$$$$ hopes and dreams

  356. “And the woman is condemned for accepting?” JAL

    Not sure what you are talking about. I read what I wrote again. Can you show me where I condemned the girl and not my brother? That be great. Thanks.

    That being said, they both make me equally sick. Vile.

    And to be fair….I’m not sure who offered the deal first. I know she used the threat if having the baby as leverage for the sake of material gain. And he was more then happy to play ball.

    My sister in law has had two abortions. Doesn’t seem to care. Nothing more then expensive birth control. Disgusting.

    Most of us Rabbits respect life.

  357. ” I wish both parents would feel the pain we felt when our tiny baby died.”

    Amen James. I want them to be crushed…CRUSHED….like my wife and I were.

    I watched my wife writhing with pain and weeping on the floor for hours after the 3rd miscarriage.

    On a side note Pink Floyd’s the Wall happened to be on the TV. It made things so much worse but neither of us changed the channel.

    I was so damn sad. I grew attached to that pregnancy. So much hope and then suddenly all was hopeless. They told us we might not ever have kids after that one. Thank God they were wrong.

  358. Rutherford – Thanks for the thoughtful response on the abortion question. I skimmed over the responses and didn’t find anything much worth discussing; it’s the same old “abortion is murder” stuff without anything to back the arguments up. Since I posed the question and you graciously hung your balls out with a good, thoughtful analysis, I’ll go piece-by-piece.

    (R’s position’s evolution) “was not influenced by any particular love of the fetus but more by the cavalier attitude of the pro-choice crowd.

    I see a fair amount of US TV, and I haven’t seen that at all. Yes, there are some bonkers on both sides, but when compared to the extremist positions of the antiabortion crowd, the pro-choicers seem pretty sedate. Can you give an example of someone you’ve seen with that cavalier attitude? I mean that. Think, R, have you seen that anywhere?

    “No one ASKS to be the product of rape or incest. It shouldn’t be their problem. If the mother can’t figure out how to deal with it, then place the baby for adoption.”

    Ah, but here you equate “pregnancy” and “baby,” which is one of the slick arguments the antiabortion crowd uses. When does a single cell become a “they,” Rutherford? If you can answer that question, then the problem is solved, isn’t it?

    “Both James’s granddaughter and I might have been aborted based on initial assessments. If the fetus shows medical abnormalities you run with it and see what happens. Might be real hard. Guess what? Life is hard.”

    James is a bad example. He has the resources and life experience to support a defective child. (who, by all accounts is NOT, anyway, but I take your point). Many others do not have the wherewithal that James has, and if you’d like to visit their offspring, drop by your local jail.

    “While rape, incest and prenatal abnormalities make the abortion issue more complex, abortion as birth control has truly come to disgust me.”

    Is it really being commonly used that way, or are you repeating something you have heard? The OTHER side says no. I would think that one abortion experience would put the quietus to using it as birth control anyway. Ever see an abortion? If it looks brutal from a spectator perspective, think what it’s like with that thing in your twat, sucking your innards out. Thoughts?

    “To the pro choice women who want their sexual freedom, I say take the pill or take your chances. You get pregnant, place her or raise her.”

    People make mistakes. If that mistake can be corrected when the conceptus is the size of a raisin, should that be allowed?

    “Watching Rachel Maddow and guest giggle and gloat over the ability to kill a developing being really crystallized things for me. Totally disgusting.”

    Did you really see that? Think hard now, R, I value your ability to be honest. Did she really giggle, and was it for the reason you said, or was it maybe a little different from exactly that? Just asking.

    “Do we put women who abort in jail? Most pro-life folks don’t want to confront that.”

    No, they always say, “Put the doctors in jail.” It’s like the drug dealer analysis: don’t put the poor user in jail; put the dealer. Well, Einstein (not you, R), where is he supposed to get the fucking drug, shit it? Where does the woman get the abortion, then, do it herself with a coathanger?

    No, that’s just a way of accomplishing the same thing: ending abortion, but not looking like an asshole by jailing the woman – just the evil doctor.

    “Do we want desperate women to terminate pregnancies in the absence of safe medical care? Pro life folks don’t want to answer that either. It also bothers the crap out of me that the same political cohort that opposes abortion won’t lift a finger to help the kid after birth.”

    Couldn’t have said it better. And to add: they push crap like “abstinence education” (instead of sex ed) in the US public schools – programs so ineffective they lead to MORE abortions. Nice going, Slick.

    “I think legally Roe v Wade is a good legal compromise.”

    It is, although an example of judicial activism. Likely the US Supreme Court had no constitutionally valid reason to weigh in, but they wanted to anyway.

    “I want women who equate abortion with birth control to be shunned and shamed.”

    I guess we disagree there. I want their boyfriends’ dicks cut off. Takes two to tango, Maestro.

    “not some freedom to be celebrated.”

    You better celebrate any freedom you still have, Rutherford. Come here and try to get a gun.

    “We mustn’t let the pro-choice crowd pervert what should be a national aversion to abortion.”

    There shouldn’t be ANY emotional reaction to it – aversion or orgasm, for that matter. Just decide if it should be legal; if so, when; adjust your laws, and get on with life.

  359. You want an example of the pro-choice crowd bonkers, hey Aussie? Strange your post times don’t equate to your GMT time… LOL Exactly where are you in Australia again?

    The same old tired excuses used to sell a failed policy by Pfesser. Abstinence doesn’t work…blah blah blah IT’S A MIRACLE!

    Here’s your lovely pro-choice crowd in action. Hail Satan, Pfesser. They’re all yours. 😈

  360. Ah, but here you equate “pregnancy” and “baby,” which is one of the slick arguments the antiabortion crowd uses. When does a single cell become a “they,” Rutherford? If you can answer that question, then the problem is solved, isn’t it?

    When does an abortion doctor kill a “single cell”? We’ve all seen the photos of the “medical waste”. and read the descriptions. It’s convenient to depersonalize them by calling “it” a “fetus”, but unless a woman was likely to give birth to a school of fish, or a little of puppies, or kittens, or maybe a pony, you’re just denying what it is.

    It is, although an example of judicial activism. Likely the US Supreme Court had no constitutionally valid reason to weigh in, but they wanted to anyway.

    No, it is a legal abomination, repugnant to the nation’s mission statement, and encouraged other bad behavior from people who couldn’t achieve their aims by going through the proper channels, i.e. “Legislation”, much like those who seek gay marriage through the courts. Surprisingly, the judiciary hasn’t gone full retard on this….the US District Court judge in Puerto Rico explained it oh so well, including the fact that the SCOTUS recognized in Windsor the fact that the federal role in the matter is limited, and that many USDC decisions invalidating state laws are themselves invalid, as the laws don’t fall under Federal Jurisdiction.

    No, they always say, “Put the doctors in jail.” It’s like the drug dealer analysis: don’t put the poor user in jail; put the dealer. Well, Einstein (not you, R), where is he supposed to get the fucking drug, shit it? Where does the woman get the abortion, then, do it herself with a coathanger?

    No, that’s just a way of accomplishing the same thing: ending abortion, but not looking like an asshole by jailing the woman – just the evil doctor.

    More exceptions swallowing the rule. But considering that there are a great deal of clinics in this country that aren’t even REQUIRED to have a doctor, I think the argument is a false one…especially if you’re looking to provide SAFE options for women.

    Do we want desperate women to terminate pregnancies in the absence of safe medical care?

    Kermit. Gosnell. Google him. I guarantee that he isn’t an outlier. He just couldn’t be ignored any longer.

  361. “I skimmed over the responses and didn’t find anything much worth discussing. Its the same old… Pfessor

    He then goes on to say the exact SAME shit he says EVERY TIME.

    Calls an abortion the elimination of a single cell and then claims the pro life crowd of being “slick”.

    Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwn.

    By the way, I would bet anything the pro life crowd on average gives more to charity.

  362. If you can’t be safe in Canada you can bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

    But here’s the question. Apparently Canada revokes passports of suspected ISIL sympathizers thereby trapping the rabid dogs in country to kill their own. Wouldn’t they be better off just letting these nutjobs leave the country?

  363. Parker, intellectually I find personhood (or cellular citizenship as I have named it) absolutely absurd BUT man does it settle things nicely. Upon conception, any interference is murder. Cut and dry. Stops the argument and the ambiguity. There is something to be said for that.

  364. Actually Canada conducts fairly thorough investigation and evaluation of its suspected nut jobs. The guy that did the hit and run thing was involved with police ,govt. and the iman from his mosque counseling and stuff. Some times it works some time it don’t.
    I will say this Canadas issue seems to be with converts you wouldn’t suspect by looking at them.

  365. There is a train of thought that all countries should revoke citizenship and forbid reentry of those that go. I’d support that I think. Alienation be damned?
    On another note. US college loan debt 1 trillion bucks. omg that can’t be good

  366. “Parker, intellectually I find personhood (or cellular citizenship as I have named it) absolutely absurd BUT man does it settle things nicely. Upon conception, any interference is murder. Cut and dry. Stops the argument and the ambiguity. There is something to be said for that.”

    Yes, there is: cut, dry – and wrong. We see that all the time, don’t we? Just Settle The Damn Thing. Well, there are consequences to taking the easy road, just out of fatigue. Instead of arguing with your wife, just slap hell out of her. Settles it, doesn’t it? Something to be said for that, but in the long run there’s a whale of a price to be paid.

    But having said that, you can’t settle a problem rationally with people who absolutely won’t give an inch. You can’t sit and reason together as friends. You can’t compromise, because there is no compromise with absolutists. They are right and by being 100% right, they feel they have the right to force YOU to do it their way – like it or no.

    Sounds a little like the Taliban, or ISIS, doesn’t it? And there’s a reason: the mentality is the same.

  367. its Hell, isn’t it Rabbit?

    Fetus and baby are just words as are barracks and dormitories. Our basic training TIs used the wrong nomenclature and they were angry when I pointed it out. I believe a fetus is really a baby no matter when you call it, when it reaches exterior survivability, and that age is slowly falling.

    Parker is right that my wife and I have the experience and resources to give our grand daughter what no one else could. However, “defective” babies with Downs syndrome can be adopted by others. Other babies with the life span of minutes or hours after birth are different. The would die anyway.

    I lean toward alfie’s musing about revoking citizenship.

    “Sometimes it works and sometime it don’t ” describes everything from an epidemic to a political campaign.

  368. Something for you to think about, R: If I recall correctly, cloning has already been performed on “lower” animals – sheep, I believe? In cloning, the raw material is an ordinary cell from the sheep’s body – no egg/sperm combination required. If I remember my college biology correctly, this makes sense, since nearly every cell in the body contains the full genetic code for the complete individual, while egg/sperm each have half and thus must be combined.

    By international agreement, human cloning has been banned, but theoretically is possible. So, would a cloned pregnancy be subject to the same abortion arguments as one conceived the “usual” way? If so, since “life” begins at conception according to the antiabortion crowd, when would the moment of conception be? When the donor cell was “born?” – say forty years ago? And, since every cell has the potential to be a human, would it be mass murder when you take a bath and shed thousands of cells?

    It seems to me that the biggest obstacle to ever settling the abortion argument is getting the Right to agree that the answers are NOT easy and that they need to sit down with the opposition and try to craft something workable, instead of taking the attitude, “my way or none.”

  369. Parker you argue from a misconception. The Left is just as obdurate. Visit the Helen and Margaret blog or listen to Wendy Davis’ musings. “Try to craft something workable.”? This is it, boys , this is war–what are we waiting for? Why don’t we break the rules already?” Fun “Some Nights.” The winners will “craft something workable” and the losers will acquiesce until they find more votes.

  370. R – While we are on the subject of murder, here is a very interesting take on the US University of Virginia murder(s) by Camille Paglia.

    http://time.com/3444749/camille-paglia-the-modern-campus-cannot-comprehend-evil/

    I have to tell you, she says what I have always thought, but she expresses it much better. There are some badfellas out there, and women – typically smaller and weaker than men – and having something these losers want but can’t figure out how to get the “regular” way – are their prey.

    Somehow today’s young university women just don’t seem to recognize that fact and believe they can go wherever and whenever they please, be as crazy and drink as much as they want. Then they get all huffy when they wake up the next morning with their panties on backwards and no memory of what happened – or worse, they wake up dead. Fair? No. But in my opinion, fact, nonetheless.

    Which is, of course, why god invented the Colt revolver. Get one, ladies, and learn how to shoot center-mass.

    It would be interesting to hear a comment from Muffy on this article.

  371. Maybe you’re right, James. My experience is that the Left is many times more unreasonable than the Right. Maybe a little honesty on both sides would go a long way.

  372. Yes, Parker, a little honesty on both sides would go a long way.

    I studied Holt County, Nebraska for my MA. In some respects conflicts there resembled the abortion and other debates. Neither side would give more than it had to. Hostilities were so high that newspaper editors from two opposing towns had a public fist fight in a street. It was a show down without the pistols. The drought of 1893-95 virtually depopulated some counties. Residents of Holt County faced a choice–cooperate or economically die. Its human nature as surely as are sexual and other predators.

  373. A humor break might be needed.

    John Oliver making The Supreme Court arguments more interesting. It would work for Congress as well! Enjoy

  374. It seems to me that the biggest obstacle to ever settling the abortion argument is getting the Right to agree that the answers are NOT easy and that they need to sit down with the opposition and try to craft something workable, instead of taking the attitude, “my way or none.”

    Well that’s true for just about anything, isn’t it?

  375. JAL, John Oliver is the best thing to hit HBO in ages. Astride all the humor are serious examinations of stories the MSM is just not following. I first heard of police taking your money (legally) on his show.

    The Supreme Court dogs are a hoot.

  376. It’s foolish to think they have not cloned any humans. I believe we have clones walking among us. Some say clones have no soul. Google ‘Obama is a clone’ and see how many hits you get. There is some interesting stuff out there, though some is silly.

  377. It seems to me that the biggest obstacle to ever settling the abortion argument is getting the Right to agree that the answers are NOT easy and that they need to sit down with the opposition and try to craft something workable, instead of taking the attitude, “my way or none.”

    Actually, the answer is incredibly easy. It just seems to be difficult for man to operate under its basic tenets. And unfortunately, it is a solution one the Left and militants not terribly comfortable with and readily mock, and one too many on the right pay lip service to. It’s something called God’s moral laws, and it goes something like this:

    Young men, treat women with respect and keep your carnal desires in check. Young women, keep your virtue and chasten yourselves. Understand soul mates are not found; they’re made. Find somebody of the opposite sex you really like as a friend that shares your values. Understand all people have faults. Learn to be considerate and compatible as a partnership takes years to develop. Get married with a real commitment and do it while you are young enough so that you may enjoy each others company. There is no sin in being single either but do not have children out of marriage.

    Should you choose to have kids, do it in marriage and make them the focal point of your life, never forgetting your spouse in the process. Teach other young children to respect adults. Teach your own to be responsible adults as your parents did you. Your kids are for a while; your spouse is until death do you part. Kids rise to meet loving and caring parents expectations.

    If America did this, I am completely convinced our schools would drastically improve, our civility would return, our crime rate would drop dramatically, the respect of elders would be restored, the respect for authority could once again be established. Love, honesty and commitment are key, and the essence of clear thinking is to admit your own fallibility, believing in a higher power to see you through.

    And I should add that anyone calling themselves a Christian should lead by example.

    Now I’m sure to the social engineers, do gooders who have dared question these sets of rules that have withstood the test of time, this must read incredibly simplistic, naive, and a little too quaint. This is an enlightened time of freedom from rules, man doing what is right in his own eyes, tune in, turn on, drop out. We are now living under those precepts.

    But I believe I can point to the failure of the traditional family and its underpinnings, the failure of marriage, and at least indirectly tie them back to every problem this society is currently experiencing. I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that these simple guidelines I have provided are the only thing that will save us. And if we do not begin the attempt to return to these “traditional values?” Probably sooner than later, our country will join the list of ‘superpower’ nations that once were…it should be obvious to even the most militant, our civilization is not only under attack, but losing the war on all fronts.

  378. Wow. if only Tex could agree that his latest speech does not require a religious foundation, I could say bravo — kudos– and congrats. I think, corny as it sounds, Tex struck upon the major ill leading to our downfall. The greatest institution we have is the American family. Our sky high divorce rate, symptomatic of a population of adults who refuse to grow the fuck up, has damaged children more than we know — and it has become the new normal.

    Whether it is abortion or a host of other issues, I see at the core of our problem a selfishness at the heart of America. Selfishness and zero accountability.

  379. Not at all, Rutherford. Perhaps you can understand though while you and I will never see eye-to-eye and I think you still carry the most massive of shortcomings in mindset, why I still consider you at least pseudo friend – the fact somewhere in you, and I still find a shred of human decency unlike so many on the Left that I find tyrannical and vicious, or stupid and vacuous. Along with the pen pal relationships I’ve formed through the years here, it’s the reason I keep coming back. If you were Helen and Margaret, I would have forgotten you long ago.

    Perhaps it’s your own adventure in overcoming your own hardships that has at least given you a good dose of insight of what works and what doesn’t. But then, you were raised in a two parent household where your own parents understood what I do – children need the love and stability of a home and responsible parent(s) who make it their mission to raise responsible adults.

    Like I heard a pastor one time correctly say, if we give our children to Caesar, why are we surprised they come out Romans? 😐

  380. Here’s why I think the howls on the Left of the 1% are so fallacious…

    Lost in all the bad news recently, is the sordid news. Anybody been following the story of the buffoon for Vice President’s son, just booted from the military. Hard questions are starting to be asked. Like how did this guy be allowed in at all?

    I know Biden is thought of as even a clown by the Left, who tries like hell to ignore this imbecile. But let’s not forget that Jolting Joe is still one step from the Presidency too and well connected to milk the teat.

    The Hunter Biden Chronicles
    http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/the-hunter-biden-chronicles/article/2555125

  381. I see at the core of our problem a selfishness at the heart of America.
    It is not just an American problem but selfishness is an odious human trait for sure.

    Anyway back at the gates of WWIII the Swedes are tripping over themselves looking for a Russian submarine which the Russians deny is present. That said a Russian recon plane was darting around the Baltic getting all types of NATO attention. mmmm

  382. Spain Ebola free.
    Nigeria Ebola free
    USA one still recovering no new reports.
    Although my wager will still likely find me the loser I think WHO will be making a rather startling announcement soon. Whether it is a truth or a lie isn’t as important as what folks are trying to make the Big E be

  383. Cute JAL. Ginsburg and Alito gave me a chuckle. Might work. That’s about the level of attention span the American public holds anymore. We need to be entertained at all costs.

  384. Clowns and clones. Have mercy.

    “Which questions in particular? If the issue weren’t complicated, our society would have settled the matter long ago.”

    The questions aren’t that complicated and it isn’t settled because abortion proponents got what they wanted and now some of them realize that killing is messy business. Abortion is considered acceptable birth control and the serial killer in the US boasting the biggest body count is Kermit “that one could have walked to the bus stop” Gosnell.

    Which questions?

    Q: How do we legislate around “it’s her body? “Do we put women who abort in jail? Most pro-life folks don’t want to confront that.”

    It’s a lie to say that “Most pro-life folks don’t want to confront that.” The answer is no.

    Fine the doctor, yank his license, send him to prison. In that order.

    My question is when is the left going to stop pretending that the “pro-life folks don’t want to confront that” because the left doesn’t like the answer.

    Q: “Do we want desperate women to terminate pregnancies in the absence of safe medical care? Pro life folks don’t want to answer that either.”

    The answer is no. Got it?

    “I think legally Roe v Wade is a good legal compromise. The change I’d like to see is a change in national discourse. I want women who equate abortion with birth control to be shunned and shamed. I want abortion viewed as tragic, not some freedom to be celebrated.”

    I’m sure the ACA is regarded by some as a compromise too, though some even on the left admit at least that it’s a bad one. The left doesn’t know how to compromise, only to talk and to take what isn’t theirs to take in the first place.

    Want to change the national discourse then change it. Between the two maladies that Tex spoke of earlier – not to mention the breakdown of the family – the left is talking the nation into becoming one drunkass woman at a bar full of men who are willing to take what they want by force, be it greedy politicians drunk on approbation lust or some big bad guy wearing a mask and wielding a sharp knife. Lady Liberty may survive but she won’t be the same afterwards.

    O yes we can.

  385. Responsible mothers teach their daughters not to be that woman at the bar. That has to happen before college and during college and even after college because college is not for molding decent human beings, it’s professional training for profit.

  386. i liked it Lurker

    .Sematics. By my definition, abortion is legalized murder as surely as is killing an enemy soldier or a criminal. The words are different. The results are the same.
    Tex’s post need have nothing to do with religion. It is common sense.

    My sister-in law was “that woman at the bar” after she and her boy friend broke up. She told me she was going to pick up the first man she saw and marry him. She did. He isn’t a bad sort, and he has skills, but he is one of the oddest men I know. My sister-in law should have looked longer.

  387. My sister-in law was “that woman at the bar” after she and her boy friend broke up. She told me she was going to pick up the first man she saw and marry him. She did. He isn’t a bad sort, and he has skills, but he is one of the oddest men I know. My sister-in law should have looked longer.

    ** GUFFAW **

    I guess “skills” only get you so far in marriage. I made these shutters to surprise my wife, and she was so impressed with my “skills,” she didn’t notice them attached to the front of our house for the entire weekend. LOL

    When I pointed them out to her, she looked, squinted and said, “Oh yeah. Those look nice. Are they the same color?” 😛

    Talk about deflating your balloon.

  388. Talk about deflating your balloon.

    LOLOLOLOLOL All I can say is I told you so.

    Tex you ought to sample “blackish” a new sitcom on ABC. They’ve lampooned what daddy’s do around the house as well as giving your kid an ass whupping. Universal family themes played for laughs. And interestingly in only the 4th or 5th episode they’ve already dropped much of the racial premise that was the centerpiece of the show.

  389. October 23, 2014 at 11:17 am – tex

    I don’t disagree with some of what he has to say about family, marriage and divorce. Many people end their marriage too quickly today. However, I don’t think life was as perfect as he made it out to be. Do a little family history.

    Once upon a long time ago……To marry for love was a luxury few people could afford. Life was hard and many marriages were a convenience, a necessity or arranged. Woman on the whole had little power outside the (or inside) marriage. Only until the 1920/30 were women allowed custody of their children. There were very few jobs for woman that paid enough to support her family if the husband refused to pay child support. Of course divorce was a social disgrace that brought shame upon her and her family. So divorce was given great thought before leaving an abusive destructive marriage. Woman (and men) put up with things they will not put up with today.

    I really question what is behind this abortion issue. I believe it has little to do with valuing the life of the fetus.

  390. I really question what is behind this abortion issue. I believe it has little to do with valuing the life of the fetus.

    As evidenced by young women announcing to their family and friends that she’s “having a FETUS! SQQQUUEEEEEEEEEEE!!!” or the Fetus showers held in anticipation of the arrival of those adorable “clumps of cells”.

    I’m pretty sure that even Chelsea Clinton didn’t refer to her unborn child in anything less than human terms.

    http://www.hellomagazine.com/celebrities/2014041818285/chelsea-clinton-pregnant-hillary-bill-proud-grandparents/www.hellomagazine.com/healthandbeauty/mother-and-baby/2014/10/22/20989/index.html/www.hellomagazine.com/healthandbeauty/mother-and-baby/2014/10/22/20989/index.html/?pageCurrent=1&

  391. Ha Ha, Tex! I love it.

    My brother- in law does odd things. He and my nephew disappeared for three days, and my sister- in law was about to report them as missing persons. He called from Idaho and told her he had just purchased a dismantled single motor airplane. He and his nephew took it to a hanger and rented a spot. Later, the sheriff impounded the plane after a report that it was stolen. The sheriff eventually returned the plane and my brother-in law assembled it. He learned to fly and took people up for rides.

  392. Life has never been perfect, JAL. I said it was better and more stable then – I know children were better off. I’m not naive to the fact every generation has it’s problems and its grievances. And maybe more importantly for you, I think women were happier 40 years ago than they are now. Don’t believe, read all over this internet the dysfunction that women are finding. Many are frustrated they can’t find a man. Many are borderline insane. On God’s green earth, why would a man want to be married to a sniveling harpie with serious daddy issues? I thought all this freedom was to empower women? I am woman, here me roar! Perhaps there are millions of women that should be careful what they wished for? Perhaps millions more don’t believe the crap either?

    Before you accuse me of sexism and being a Neanderthal, two things. My mother, two daughters, my mom, and my sister. My five favorite people in the world. Notice they have all have one thing in common besides being related to me. I want everything for them that life has to offer.

    But let me relay an observation made to me by a very, very smart 25 year old female – my oldest daughter. Chances good she will graduate irregardless of gender at or near the top of her medical school. She’ll beat most all the boys if not all of them. Yes, I like to brag. Yes, I am quite proud somehow someone this bright is a part of me. She blew by me ten years ago and never has looked back. Daughter #2 will get there before it’s over with. My wife is the smartest of them all.

    But about a month ago, my oldest daughter and I were having a conversation. Most of the conversations are between mother and daughter when she has the time, but she still calls me on special occasions. Out of the blue she says, “I’m so sick of this war on women crap. It’s garbage. I tell you, Dad. There is a war on women – by other women. All of my male doctor friends were happy for me when I was granted this award. Mark (most likely her future husband) was really proud of me. But not most of my female friends. Elisa said I had an unfair advantage because I went to top schools before showed up here. Suzy Q called me a ‘gunner.'” And the criticisms went on and on.

    I told her to forget it. It was nothing but simple jealousy. But daughter #1 went further and wouldn’t let up. “I’ve never had one obstacle thrown in my way because I’m a girl. It’s nothing but an excuse and it’s dragging everyone of us down. We’re not men. I don’t want to fight in a war, or be a fireman, or build a building. Women’s athletics are dull (she was an all-state athlete too; like I said, she’s been pretty blessed). I like being a girl who likes most guys. And that’s the problem. I actually believe many of these girls would rather be boys. It’s nothing but a scapegoat and a pathetic excuse, and I’ve never met a man as petty and vindictive as many of the girls I grew up with.”

    Not all women are buying your argument…

  393. Tex, your daughter sounds a lot like my niece, a high performing student now medical doctor. She earned all of her opportunities and shares the same disgust for the “war on women.” R would probably call their attitudes an affront to feminism. 🙄

    Anyway, my niece pins it on the instilled belief that women and minorities are entitled to special treatment or excuses for lack of performance to such a degree that when they are not available under attack the only reason to explain it is “racism” or “sexism.” I think she’s right. The perpetual misery of unfulfilled expectations — all someone else’s doing.

  394. Looks like Ferguson will be a real ball — after the elections of course.

    Thanks Holder.

    Thanks Obama.

    Thanks Sharpton.

    Thanks MSM.

    Fuck.

  395.  “I believe it has little to do with valuing the life of the fetus.” JAL

    Roughly 41% of all Americans who self identify as pro life are female. I wonder what sneaky agenda they have other then caring about human life in the womb.

    I can’t even take part in much abortion debate because I’m capable of getting sick to my stomach. Literally nauseating. In this regard, I give a tip of my hat to Pfessor. I am indeed too emotional to dwell on this and have an urge to physically stop the murder. Only cowardice and love for my family keeps me from doing right.

    Besides, if my very reasons I find it such an abomination aren’t believed….what’s the point.

    What a dark stain on humanity.

    Girls being eradicated in China and India by the millions.

    Precious life with finger nails and REM sleep being diced to pieces so that a semester in community college isn’t complicated.

    Liar doctors like Pfessor claiming it to be a single cell as they mock those of us who stand up for the most defenseless among us.

  396. “Looks like Ferguson will be a real ball — after the elections of course.”

    They should weight until its -39 wind chill to officially drop the charges. Problem solved.

  397. I’m with rabbit. I don’t choose to debate abortion right now. Whether or not the reasons for ending a pregnancy are legitimate or necessary, it is still murder if the fetus has evolved into a baby which can feel pain and hear; .Imagine the hell a small baby lives in as something rips it out of its comfortable environment as its small brain feels terror and pain without understanding.

    Many of our generation are sniveling weaklings who have no concept of real adversity. For example, Tacitus wrote of , the Sami. A woman knew she was about to deliver a baby, so she made a hammock in her tent and put furs on top. She had her baby, rested with it for a couple of hours, put it on the hammock, and covered it with furs. She then left to join her husband who was reindeer hunting.

    It must be difficult for Rutherford and liberals to feel “dumb and duped in retrospect” because they have been duped so often it is hard to keep track.

  398. R would probably call their attitudes an affront to feminism.

    😆 😆 😆

    I posted that and noticed I should have said wife when I said mother twice. My wife doesn’t buy the poor, poor women argument either. She graduated top of her class too and started as a secretary. She hasn’t forgotten that. JAL has a point – but that was almost 40 years ago. But like everything else in our society, a miscarriage needed to be addressed, and when the incompetent government thugs got involved, they went way overboard. Can you imagine how stupid many women in America must be to admire a lout like Bill Clinton and not retch at Hillary Clinton? The only explanation I can make of this phenomenon is supernatural – like gates of hell supernatural.

    Didn’t stop my wife from being offered the token female executive position in the Fortune 500 caveman oil company either about 15 years later – of which she summarily rejected because she told these men it was hard enough coming back to work with little babies. The wife wasn’t about to start traveling and not be able to be mom. Think it shocked the hell out people. It did me. She still makes pretty good money – a lot more than most men make.

    But I came home pissed at her. “Are you kidding me? You could make several hundred thousand dollars a year! That’s an opportunity that will never be offered to me!”

    “I don’t care. I am blessed and I’m just a behind the scene kind of person. Besides, I find most of those windbags pompous asses.” LOL Looking back, she knew exactly what she was doing.

    But then my wife likes men. She also thinks any mother trying to be everything is a fool. So much so, I’ve heard her say more than once more women need to think like men. There’s a real affront to the whining man haters.

    I will say this in Rutherford’s defense. Those he’s still an MSNBC rube and occasional Obama dupe, I think I’ve read here that he doesn’t buy a lot of the predatory male B.S. either. Any male that has sat in a large corporation like Rutherford and I have understands completely.

    Look at my BFF Muffy. Does it appear she needs the boys help here? 🙂 Same with my wife. And apparently, same with my oldest daughter.

  399. R would probably call their attitudes an affront to feminism.

    Actually I consider much of what passes for feminism to be an affront to feminism.

    I’m no feminist. I expect women to go toe to toe with men and stop whining. In return they should get equal wages and opportunities.

    To Kirsten Gillibrand (and now Liz Warren) complaining about Senators groping them I say “grow a pair”. You’re in the big leagues now and some men will be idiots. Deal with them.

  400. Tigre, as much as you dislike Chris Hayes, I’d still be curious of your opinion of an interview he did yesterday. Basically the premise was that this Ferguson Grand Jury was unusual to the extent of the DEFENSE evidence they are seeing. The impression I got was that the prosecutor is within rights to present a one sided case to get the indictment. Here, the cop (Wilson?) is testifying on his own behalf, etc.

    However I also heard that because the DA’s office is so closely tied to the police, it is not unusual for them to let the police mount a defense.

  401. Precious life with finger nails and REM sleep being diced to pieces so that a semester in community college isn’t complicated.

    Again, selfishness without an ounce of accountability.

    But Rabbit throwing the doctors in jail without a culture change will not solve the problem.

  402. R, you must have had a change of heart. My refrain relates to your comments years ago that your wife considered Palin an affront to feminism. That is a comment I don’t understand to this day but agreed with it.

  403. “My mother, two daughters, my mom, and my sister.”

    Did you leave out your wife or are you telling us you had two moms? 🙂

  404. Tigre, Palin was an affront to feminism because McCains sole reason for choosing her was her vagina. She was and is dumb as a post, unfit for ANY real office. Mayor of Wasilla is a job I could do and I suspect I could handle Governor of Alaska too.

  405. R, you’re right about Pajama Boy Hayes. You’re impressed by him, I think he’s a pandering midget. He’s also a fucking agitator. I saw him gleefully prowling the streets looking for opportunities to exploit the situation to enrage while the cameras rolled. Of course I didn’t see his piece. The DA being close to the police is always the case. Why wouldn’t it be? They’re both tasked with the same objective and usually operate within close physical proximity. Its law enforcement.

    As for unusual approach, my guess is that you misinterpreted the commentary or it was wrong. I think you were probably being told that its very unusual for one being investigate to mount a vigorous defense with a grand jury — especially testifying. It has all the potential to backfire and be used against the accused that otherwise have a right not to take the stand. There’s almost nothing to gain and everything to lose when most indictments are rubber stamped. Unless. . . the case against this cop is so fucking weak, as it appears to be, that there’s a reasonably good chance no indictment will be handed down. That fucking bad.

    And my guess is that this is that fucking bad. Totally made up. Known to have been made up. Obvious physical evidence that it was a justified shooting. Witnesses intimidated and scared to tell the truth about what happened before their eyes under the pretense that the patently false narrative deserved to consideration. All to ensure a prosecution. The machinery of ANOTHER out of control lynching, again put in place with the imprimatur of Obama and his DOJ whose attorney general refers to the accusers and their supporters as “his people.” I am not surprised in the least. And if I am right, Holder should be hung by his toenails for this shit as he should have for the Zimmerman debacle.

    Rutherford, I am feeling a little like DR not wanting to discuss abortion. I am infuriated at what I am hearing. This DOJ is appalling. The fact that you are unaffected makes me mad at you even though I know your inability to see the utter destruction these abuses of the justice system bear are a product of ignorance and naiveté.

    I’m sorry. You were saying something about Hayes’ usual antics when the injustice he so desperately wants to exist doesn’t exist?

  406.  “I suspect I could handle Governor of Alaska too.” -R

    That cracked me up for some reason. I’m not contesting that smack talk either.

  407. That’s an affront to feminism. An affront to feminism? What the fuck does that mean? Ferraro was an affront to feminism? Hillary? WTF??

  408. We have an unfit President, an unmitigated disaster, who was elected without any executive experience what so ever, simply because his skin is a light brown.

    Just as fucking stupid. The scary part is that McCain is only one man. We are talking millions of morons here. Some of these dolts even used blogs to cheer lead for the wreck.

  409. That’s an affront to feminism. An affront to feminism? What the fuck does that mean? Ferraro was an affront to feminism? Hillary? WTF??

    Ferraro and HRC, neither of whom I like, could string more than 3 words together and make sense.

    One of the reasons I harp on and on about Palin is your dogged insistence to elevate her.

    As for Hayes rant, thanks I guess, for sharing your legal opinion on grand juries. Personally I cannot believe you considered Hayes a ferguson agitator.

  410. This DOJ is appalling. The fact that you are unaffected makes me mad at you even though I know your inability to see the utter destruction these abuses of the justice system bear are a product of ignorance and naiveté.

    It isn’t abuse when it leads to the “approved” results. Besides, if we go banana republic enough, those who should be cuffed and frog marched right now will never have to worry about it, because their party will ALWAYS be in power.

    Either that, or reality will continue to assert its bad self in a myriad of ways until things fall apart and the center cannot hold. Money that is worthless, profligate spending, ebola in NYC, enterovirusD68, stepped up sudden jihadi syndrome, porous borders, and the worst actors in the Middle East have appraised the most divisive post-racial Prezidunt ever, and found him lacking.

  411. I got to fill out this mail in ballot. Wife says tomorrow is the last day to mail it. I sure hate politics. I think Ducey’s a shoe-in here for governor. Man is he sleazy, too. His pukability level in pretty high. I can’t stand the stench and all the signs and ads everywhere. Bring on the fire and brimstone, Lord. Please!

    I’m pretty proud of my daughters. They don’t take any crap off anyone. My oldest taught me ‘irregardless’ isn’t a word. That was about ten years ago, and every time I see or hear it now, I can hear her tell me again. 😆

  412. The scary part is that McCain is only one man. We are talking millions of morons here.

    Nope the scary part is if Palin ran against Obama it might be close. Millions of dolts like Sarah.

  413. So doctor knowingly took the sub way to go bowling with Ebola in New York city.

    He did this on purpose.

    I have seen stupidity on a jaw dropping level when it comes to this Ebola shit.

    Bowling?

    The infamous dirty pass time of bowling?

    Did the guy rent shoes too?

    This was, for all practical purposes, a terrorist attack.

    Gross negligence maybe. Maybe.

  414. Mayor of Wasilla is a job I could do and I suspect I could handle Governor of Alaska too.

    I know it is so rarely exhibited by your heroes, but being an elected executive requires respect for laws. That implies actually understanding them as well. As you’ve demonstrated time and again, betrayed by your own keystrokes, you aren’t up for the job.

    Your proof of her stupidity is as absent as the proof of your boy-king’s much vaunted intellect.

  415. So doctor knowingly took the sub way to go bowling with Ebola in New York city.

    What’s with you and Tex accusing folks of being deliberately careless? Doc self quarantined as soon as he believed he was symptomatic and then called health services to safely transport him to Bellevue.

  416. What’s with you and Tex accusing folks of being deliberately careless? Doc self quarantined as soon as he believed he was symptomatic and then called health services to safely transport him to Bellevue.

    He should have been quarantined on re-entry to the country.

    But instead the TSA took a break from feeling up women and children and stealing from travelers’ luggage so they could take his temperature. We’re in the best of hands.

  417. If we were to talk about dumb women in politics, I’m pretty sure that Wendy “Dildo” Davis should get her own chapter in such a book. Her complete unfitness for the governor’s mansion and the stupid things her desperation have led her to have been almost painful to watch.

    Then I remember that she’s a gold-digging, opportunistic shill for the private murder industry, and I’m ok with her transforming herself into the hottest mess of this campaign season.

  418. Wait a minute. My dogged insistence to do what? Elevate her? What are you talking about. I’ve always said I wished she’d go away. You’re the one with the mommy issues that makes her so terrifying an titillating. 😆


    “As for Hayes rant, thanks I guess, for sharing your legal opinion on grand juries.”

    I assume you’re being sarcastic. If so, I don’t know what he said so I can’t exactly respond. If there’s something about a grand jury you don’t understand, you’ll have to tell me. I don’t know what the problem is other than what to be deliberate leaks from a secret process.


    Yeah. I saw Hayes doing the MSNBC schtick in Ferguson. I must have missed the part where he cast doubt on the whole story and the persecution of a wrongly accused police officer labeled a racist executioner. Is that what you saw?

  419. re: single cell.

    “The sperm and the egg cell, which has been released from one of the female’s two ovaries, unite in one of the two fallopian tubes. The fertilized egg, known as a zygote, (a single cell) then moves toward the uterus, a journey that can take up to a week to complete. Cell division begins approximately 24 to 36 hours after the male and female cells unite. ”

    Starts as a single cell. Then 2, then 4 then 8, etc.. Ends as a baby. Cool.

    This ain’t that complicated. Just look on the Web.

  420. “Roughly 41% of all Americans who self identify as pro life are female.” dr

    Should I assume the other roughly 59% are men? What sneaky agenda might these men have up their sleeve?

    I assure you that most pro-choice Americans would prefer there be few abortions.

    You are right it is a very difficult issue to deal with for both sides.

  421. What’s your point? Abortion usually takes place after a pregnancy test. By the earliest the hormone is picked up by a store brand test kit were talking lots ‘o cells.

    But yeah…I know you think pretending I am ignorant makes you some how have the high ground.

  422. “I assure you that most pro-choice Americans would prefer there be few abortions.”-JAL

    Oh yeah…that’s the ticket….I hear liberals publicly lamenting the ginormous amount of annual abortions all the time.

    Just like of black on black murder…..fucking crickets, JAL.

    Rutherford might be one of the very few and his fellow liberals outed him for it and tried to wreck his livelihood.

    Libs don’t give a flying fuck about abortion.

    Proofs in the pudding JAL…

    As for it being “difficult” for both sides…how can that be since you are so suspicious that the Pro Life movement has an alternative motive.

    Your a supposed feminist. They are snuffing out women by the millions in Asia through gender targeted abortion. Eradicating girls.

    But you go girl….its all about the lady power.

  423. Liz Warren claims she was groped? ROFL What utter, complete horseshit – that’s right up there with Liz claiming she’s an Injun. 😆 😆

    What did they grope? A wrinkle?

  424. He should have been quarantined on re-entry to the country.

    You raise a good point. So far the discussion has centered around not letting Africans come here but truth be told if we really wanted to stay safe, we’d stop American health workers from coming home. Wonder how THAT would fly with the public?

  425. Um, Rutherford. The very first night of the Ebola scare, you’ll note that I said everyone traveling from West Africa IRREGARDLESS of color, should be quarantined for 21 days. 😉

    You wonder why I thought this doctor reckless. Tonight it was reported he road a subway from Manhattan to Brooklyn. Sorry, but I find that grossly irresponsible, asymptomatic or not.

  426. Wendy Davis, alias Abortion Barbie, is toast in about 12 days. She can bend over and kiss her nasty ass goodbye. That’s almost orgasmic to think about all those nasty twits at Fat Grannies singing Abortion Barbie’s tune.

    I think I’ll make a mental note to visit Lori again a couple of weeks from now. 😈

  427. Nope the scary part is if Palin ran against Obama it might be close. Millions of dolts like Sarah.

    One thing for sure. Palin was certainly more effective as governor than Mr Yes We Can has been as President. To paraphrase the Honorable Mr. Buckley, we could have picked from the first 400 names in the Tulsa phone book and they would have been a more effective President than Obama.

  428. There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

    Tex my friend the definition you pointed to advises you it’s not the best form.

  429. Tex my friend the definition you pointed to advises you it’s not the best form

    You’re another distant relative off the Poolman tree of rotted fruit. Form is not what he said, is it? Shallow Pool said it’s not a word. It is. In fact, it’s the 144 most popular word in the English language if you look closely. Like Poolman, you’re so busy trying to make me look wrong, you only reinforce how clueless you really are when you highlight your own infinite errors. Thanks. 😎

  430. LOL Tex your insistence on defending the indefensible (particularly where your intellect is concerned) is almost endearing. Let me be less gentle than “not the best form”. Folks who say irregardless are considered ignorant among those who try to speak and write the best English that they can. Now, I confess that I was surprised to see Merriam-Webster give it any legitimacy at all. I was not surprised to see them give you the gentle hint of “use regardless instead”. I won’t stake money on it, but I suspect if you consult Strunk and White, you’ll find irregardless pilloried there also.

    So Poolman was wrong to say it wasn’t a word. He was right that an intelligent man like you should not use it. 🙂

  431. “One thing for sure. Palin was certainly more effective as governor than Mr Yes We Can has been as President.”
    The performances of both are pretty low bars. It’s like saying, “… a better leader than Jimmy Carter,” or a “better place-kicker than Oscar Pistorius.”

    re: “irregardless.” You are right, R – the moment that “word” comes out, immediately that person is considered as ignorant. It’s up there with, “I seen” and “he done.” I had an associate who was always lecturing everybody – about everything. Then he would out with, “My contingency is (fill in the blank) …. No, skite, that’s your contention; your contingency is another thing altogether. We’d all just look at each other, grin, and walk away. Nobody ever told him.

    Abortion is not going away. It’s a needed procedure; those who get it recognize that they should not be having children at that time – and for some of them, not at all. Financially, it’s the best investment the American taxpayer can make; he should be happy to do it.

  432. “Tigre would you set Tex, Rabbit and BiC straight? Since when is it a crime to be an e-bowla?”

    Yeah. These just keep writing themselves.

    On deck: bowler hat or Mo Howard haircut.


    Hayes did his best to legitimize the riots and reactions. I watched.

    Your outlet is a one trick pony. Ever wonder why?

  433. Great financial investment? So would death camps for the those living in government provided housing, right Dr. Mengele?

  434. I’ve always hated “forte” pronounced like the musical signature for volume. In most dictionaries its an acceptable pronunciation but it still irks me when I hear it.

    Supposebly. 😆

  435. Hayes did his best to legitimize the riots and reactions. I watched.

    It’s a potayto potahto thing Tigre. I felt he was trying to sympathize with their pain without condoning the illegality. In fact he went to great lengths to point out the thugs who were exploiting the protest for their own kicks.

    He also got shit thrown at him. Not quite the wuss you’d make him out to be.

  436. BTW the fact that the premise for the protest was likely mistaken is another story altogether.

    Oh and damn you! I can’t get that line rule to work on my iPhone even when I type out the HTML “”.

  437. I’ve always hated “forte” pronounced like the musical signature for volume.

    Yeah that’s a bad habit of mine. “Fortay” sounds more sophisticated but that don’t make it right. 🙂

  438. “If you’re going to play smart, be smart. :wink:”

    Ooops I am bit slow tex sorry – this was supposed to go on comment to dr recognizing you had corrected your mistake. I’m not the enemy.

  439. re: “irregardless.” You are right, R – the moment that “word” comes out, immediately that person is considered as ignorant.

    Uh huh. I also use the word ain’t. Add that to your ignorant list so I don’t have to argue about that not being a word either.

    Let me provide the very caricature of ignorant. People feeling the need to announce to the room they never lose an argument, then less than 24 hours later getting their bubble gum ass handed to them, flying off the handle, and threatening the opponent with legality by way of the FBI. LOL. Or enhancing childhood stories of selling Christmas trees in tales of woe, with the details changing each time the story embellished. To each their own, but that’s my definition of ignorance – Poolman/Pfesser clone level ignorance. If you’re going to lie, be consistent, “Parker.”

    Your IGNORANT analogy is non sequitur – as usual. One word is clearly misused. I used mine correctly, even if it considered slang in this tedious medium.

    Hate to tell you this, but even the feckless Huffington Post, Rutherford’s guide to life along with MSNBC, agrees with me – not you.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathon-owen/yes-irregardless-is-a-wor_b_4434749.html

    The only reason I don’t finish off your unstable nature along with sista (also slang) Lori and completely push you over the edge is, I don’t need to. Muffy does it for me as she exposes your weakness and idiocy. And its far more fun to simply laugh at her comments about you. Try to imagine that we have large “contingent” of company in here that does the same while you preen, apparently unaware nobody likes you – ‘cept Poolman. I don’t think you have any idea how patently offensive people find you – but you should have figured out with your mass mailing begging for help, then found none. 😉

    And I’m glad you found a friend in Poolman. You need a friend. You two go together like peas and carrots and add about as much value to the state of the world.

  440. You raise a good point. So far the discussion has centered around not letting Africans come here but truth be told if we really wanted to stay safe, we’d stop American health workers from coming home. Wonder how THAT would fly with the public?

    “stop American health workers from coming home?” I said quarantine, not banish.

  441. You two go together like peas and carrots and add about as much value to the state of the world.

    The world would be a poorer place without peas and carrots. They’re good for you. Just sayin’.

    P.S. I like cooked carrots, raw not so much. I like juicy peas but not mealy peas.

  442. Abortion is not going away. It’s a needed procedure; those who get it recognize that they should not be having children at that time – and for some of them, not at all. Financially, it’s the best investment the American taxpayer can make; he should be happy to do it.

    “Needed?” O_o

    Yes, what a GREAT “investment” for the American Taxpayer. Converting the average taxpaying American’s labor to blood money for Planned Murderhood, fuck that pesky old 14th Amendment anyway, YOU WILL BE MADE AN ACCOMPLICE, whether you approve or not. You know your soul is black when even the Sex Pistols understood a basic truth that you fail to grok.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glgDZN3p1wM

  443. Poolman,

    I don’t know why I am pursuing this, but in the hope you might one time understand not only are you a monotonous bore but as far from English Professor as one gets, let me provide you a list of words your pals and you shouldn’t consider words either by your dullard definition. These are only a few of hundreds…

    Breach (new case)
    Demonizing
    Demotivated
    Hegemonistic
    Hero-Worshipping
    Hackable
    Resubscribe
    Scissored
    Tick-Tock

    Have you ever heard any of these used in normal conversation? How about ‘societal’, ‘utilize’, and the redundant phrase ‘as per’? If this is the best you and your pal Parker can do, boy sure do gots me. 😳

  444. Irregardless, if it makes my pal Rutherford feel large, you will be glad to know that my wife once told me that when I tried to write or sound proper and formal, it read or sounded more like I was using a Stradivarius to pound nails. 😈

    So, if you think me bulletproof, I’ve got a million holes in me from three girls under one roof I share.

  445. “He also got shit thrown at him. Not quite the wuss you’d make him out to be.”

    No Pajama Boy Hayes is a total pussy.

  446. Well if Chris Hayes is a pussy that makes me a mega-pussy. I wouldn’t be caught dead in the hood getting rocks thrown at me.

    Hell, I don’t open the comments section of this blog without wearing body armor.

  447. “Sometimes, a thread just has enough comments, and it has taken more than its fair share of comments from another thread.” – Barrack Hussein Obama

    600 bloviations takes a long time to load, R. Maybe it’s time for a new post of a few paragraphs of Palin Derangement or helpful “advice” for Republicans, or a few words on the brilliance of Chris Hayes, or something….

  448. “I really question what is behind this abortion issue. I believe it has little to do with valuing the life of the fetus.”

    You must have some theories about this, JAL.

  449. Sarah Palin never ran for president, but she was undeniably a better governor than Obama was as an Illinois state senator. In lets pretend,. Palin would be a better president than Obama and given their records as chief executives only a “dolt” would deny the truth. At the very least, Palin would have appointed fewer radical extremists than Obama, and even if she was a puppet. they would burnish her record. Heck, Rutherford or Tex would be better than Obama.

    The Palins are red necks, a class leftist elites look down on. Some of those elites are “white trash” a step below rednecks. They get the vapors whenever a woman is harassed or treated unfairly and declare a Republican war on women. The Palins illustrated the left’s hypocracy as liberals laughed and gloated that Bristol was assaulted, beaten robbed and verbally abused. They, not Republicans, are the true warriors against women If Chelsie Clinton or Sandra Fluke had been pushed to the floor, dragged across the lawn, robbed, and verbally abused, those trashy liberals would have been raging loudly.

    Charles P. Cook who says he dislikes Palin wrote “The measure of a fair man is that he treats those whom he loathes as fairly as he treats those whom he loves. If Sarah Palin is any guide, there are few fair men left.”