War

With another Memorial Day come and gone, there is one theme in Barack Obama’s latest college lecture, ahem, policy speech that merits consideration and discussion.

Remember the good old days when we either declared war on a country or we got militarily involved to protect a country against a hostile sovereign aggressor? The “War on Terror” is neither of these. I’ve been saying this for years, long before Barack decided to share this pearl of wisdom. You cannot fight a war against a concept, or a tactic. Terrorism is a tactic used to further the interests of the terrorists who are not in current times sovereign nations.

I’ve always said that terrorism should be treated as an international crime and be dealt with via international law enforcement. Many disagree. So even if I concede that we need military action, can’t we at least agree we need better definitions? True wars have a beginning and an end. This war on terror has no end. And let’s admit something else. Terror existed long before 9/11 and we have hunted down terrorists long before 9/11. Perhaps the grand scale of 9/11 prompted us to up the ante and use the word “war” to combat it?

Or here is another thought — I’m just thinking out loud here — why don’t we just get it over with and declare war on radical Islam? Isn’t that the source of most of our woes right now? We have no problem targeting the Mafia quite explicitly. Why don’t we just stop the political correctness and target radical Islam? Understand, I’m not talking normal motherhood and apple pie Islam. I’m talking nutjobs who think they’re supposed to kill everyone who disagrees with them.

So here is my modest proposal. Let’s either stop talking “war” or proactively identify the group we are at war with. I don’t think that is too much to ask.

Reader mail: Well ok, not mail really but a comment that appeared in my last blog post. “Who is the leader of the Democratic Party?” That depends on what we mean. If we mean who gets the most face time right now, it’s probably Chuck Schumer or Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. But I’d hardly call them leaders of the party. If we mean who is likely to be the next Dem POTUS nominee then the bench is so thin, it is disturbing. Unless something changes, 2016 will see a deep and interesting bench of GOP candidates. The Dem’s, not so much. It all comes down to Hillary. Joe Biden is not all that inspiring. Martin O’Malley is one big yawn.

And yes, as my reader pointed out, our President Obama does not appear to be leading anything right now. He learns about stuff the same way we do — reading the newspaper.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

 

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623 thoughts on “War

  1. “Or here is another thought — I’m just thinking out loud here — why don’t we just get it over with and declare war on radical Islam?”

    Not a good idea.

    The enemy already calls our war a Holy War and a Crusade. This change of label would play into that. War on Terror makes the war about a person’s action..not about a person’s ideology.

  2. I am confused by this post. I don’t understand your objection to the term “war on terror” or its object (actors, not ideology, ala Huck).

    For the rhetorical aspects, didn’t the left rally around the war on women, war on crime, the war on drugs or war, war on poverty etc. etc .etc. Isn’t declaring “war” just another euphemism for devoting attention and resources to combat a problem?

    It seems to me the problem is that absent total destruction of the bad actors as with a sovereign, there is now “winning.” Is that what you’re really complaining about? Defining the parameters of the effort? If so, can you elaborate as to why this is worthy of re-characterizing whereas the other “wars” championed by either side of the aisle are not?

    Of course, Obama unilaterally declaring an end to any “war” speaks more to his naïve and arrogant approach to all aspects of governance. Unlike a loss, one can not simply “decide” they have won.

  3. I agree with Huck. We can understand it is a war on radical Islam without advertising it.

    This war will not end until one side or the other is dead or defeated. The Gates of Vienna blog has perspective. “At the seige of Vienna in 1683, Islam seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe. We are in a new phase of a very old war.”

    The Republicans could still throw it away. They are good at stupid. But right now, I don’t see many good Democratic choices either.

  4. Huck’s point it legit. To declare war on radical Islam is so open to interpretation, that it could be interpreted to mean a war on all people who practice under the entire banner of Islam. Many consider the religion of Islam itself radical.

    Our enemies would use that implied threat as more ammunition to foster ill will.

    Somehow, we have to convince the Islamic world that it is in their best interests to do what their brothers in Iraq did and start identifying the bad guys.

    However, watching Syria, I’m personally having a difficult time identifying – who are the Muslim good guys?

  5. What we “declare” is more for appearances than anything else. What we do need to do is kill radical Islam. This 17th century mentality has no place in the 21st century. They are not looking for a simple victory, not in military terms. They are looking for world domination and extinction of those not like them. There is nothing to be negotiated, because they have no terms other than our eradication.

    Unfortunately what needs to happen is not happening, and until it does I do not believe this war can be won. The non radicals need to stand up and openly oppose these terrorists in a real and tangible way, or a century from now we will still be fighting this war. To do that, they are going to need to suffer. If you do not stand out and oppose them, then you are by definition with them, and suffer all the consequences that go with that. These radicals can have no safe haven anywhere. No places to train, no civilian populace to house and feed them. They need to be ostracized completely. We need to put tremendous pressure for everyone to declare a side, and back that choice with action, the line must be drawn.

  6. Islam is about to devour itself. Perhaps one more round of self inflicted barbarism will finally wake these people up. We needed the 30 Years War to chill out. Maybe the looming Great Sunni Shi’ite War will be what they need. A painful lesson most of us in Christendom learned 500 years ago.

  7. I agree with Tex. It has to come from within Islam itself. But how do we foster that and protect ourselves at the same time?

    IMO, it will have to be the women within Islam that eventually turn the tide. They are the most common target of these radical tendencies and the least empowered by their proliferation.

    As for who leads the Dems, the pope might have abdicated, but the rest of them are still in conclave, no white smoke on the horizon. The Clintons will lay low until after the midterms, stuffing their war chest and working on a way to claim credit for immigration reform, should it pass.

    A note to Tex from the last thread. I don’t think Govt. does everything better. Far from it. As I have said before, the Dept. of Homeland Sec. and Dept. of Education could vanish tomorrow and I wouldn’t shed a tear. But it’s our government, and it’s our responsibility to decide which functions are better shared by all. I think, as a nation, we’ve had some success at this. Among them, I would list: our military, our judicial system, interstate system, national park system and even the postal service. I think medical insurance could be part of that list.

    In regard to Trek and trucks. Somewhat of a letdown yes, but I still enjoyed it as I went with my wife and my youngest daughter. (She’s big on the Avengers franchise but likes Trek too.)
    As for your Ford, water pumps usually dribble from a weep hole and make a horrendous noise as they fail. If it’s not noisy and you’re not overheating, then it’s probably a gasket leak, not the pump itself. Even if it is, should only be about $100 fix, unless it’s buried behind a timing belt. Is that a 4.0 in there? If the engine fails, keep the truck and put an industrial 300 in. You live in farm country so should be plenty available. Most old F-150’s as well as many domestic lifts (Hyster) had 4.9 300’s in them. Not glamorous, but I swear they could survive a nuclear explosion.

  8. Quick and dirty way to convert cc’s to cubic inches. Multiply by .06.

    My buddy taught me that in HS.

    Ex: 5.8L = 5800 cc. X .06 =348 c.i. = ~ 350

  9. Rutherford, I understand the concept of what you are trying to say about the “war on Terror”. We now have so many radical individuals that are not connected to any one country that are terrorists we need a broad term to incompse them including the ones in our country. I tend to agree with DR that Islam is about to devour itself and Thor’s concept regarding women’s role in the remaking of radical Islam is an interesting point but I’m not seeing that happen in my lifetime. We have many terrorists in this country that embrace radical Christianity so how do you refer to them?

    “our President Obama does not appear to be leading anything right now. He learns about stuff the same way we do — reading the newspaper.”

    In another post I commented that unlike Bush, Obama had no power house behind him. Tex corrected me by referring to the Chicago mafia. Are we to assume that they are controlling Obama and if so why not the Democrats? In my opinion all our so called leaders are floundering around in quicksand.

    I am so enjoying my new Mac Mini and wireless hotspot. Quite an improvement over my previous dial-up and Mac OSX 10.4.

  10. Thor…I agree with you. But where is the left on that issue? Where is the Western feminists groups ‘ outrage? When guys like me bring up the brutal and savage gender apartheid in the Islamic world I’m painted as a hateful conservative.

    Unfortunately, it only seems us “hateful conservatives” call the Islamic world out. Apparently vague notions of cultural relativism are more important to feminists groups then women getting the shit kicked out of them. For the love of God they are fighting for the right to drive a car in the richest of Muslim countries. Women can’t even walk the streets of Cairo without being molested every day. You would think all of this would rile the free world up as much as South Africa did in the late 80s. But nooooooo.

    Remember, we conservatives have no street cred when it comes to gender issues. You made it that way becuase you twist the pro life movment into a war on women and need to divide the country for the sake of winning elections.

    Crickets when it comes to chicks getting beat for the crime of eating ice cream in public.

    Curses to the cowardly college campuses! Curses to the cowardly left! Curses to the bull shit feminist groups!

  11. “We have many terrorists in this country that embrace radical Christianity so how do you refer to them”

    We have many? Outside a few abortion doc assassinations, maybe a few heretical cults….what the heck are you talking about?

  12. Raji……do you realize that more people have been killed by Islamic terrorism in one year then everybody from the entire 3 centuries of Spanish Inquizition?

    In one average day, more people are killed by Islamic terrorism then all the Ku Klux Klan murders for a half a century.

    I wish people would knock off the compulsory PC awknolwedgement that radical Christanity also poses a threat. It’s silly talk.

    There have been 21,000 Islamic terrorist attacks since 911.

    I remember Hucking once tried to find the Christainu equilvency. He took us deep into the jungles of Uganda to find the radical Christain group. While I mocked him, I did find it interesting and read up on it. The Lord’s Resistance Army briefly converted to Islam for a time. There is some hard core fundamental Christains.

  13. 5.0, Thor. I would question the Post Office – an impending financial disaster which simply can’t compete with the more efficient private corporations. Look at the rising costs of the most basic service – mailing a letter.

    Many of our interstates are now toll roads, some cannot handle the amount of traffic, and most are poorly maintained. I consider our judicial system for the most part biased, subject to undue influence of connection, loaded and many times corrupt – see Eric Holder.

    I’ll give you the national park, but it is a poor analogy as it the parks themselves that are the benefit, not the management, and the opening and closing of the parks subject to political demagoguery.

    I grant the military but we spend an inordinate amount of money to make it that way and the military voluntary. Defense contractors are some of the most expensive and highest profit margins of any industry, including cost plus charging. I know, I used to work for one.

    And absolutely none of those you’ve listed are efficient and cheap, unless you want to consider the administration of 1/6th the United States economy to our national parks.

    I think the only real analogy you could to your proposal for single payer is Medicare and Medicaid. And we see how fraudulent, expensive and poorly administered they are.

    Of all your ideas, this one is the worst and most of America agrees with me. And let us remember who will be doing the enforcement. The IRS.

    No thanks.

  14. We have many terrorists in this country that embrace radical Christianity so how do you refer to them?

    What an incredibly stupid statement. When did Rosie O’Donnell join the board?

  15. We are the terrorists. Ask anyone in a country where armed drones are flying overhead. We even double down and blast any that go in to rescue the injured. Hell, we target funerals and weddings.. We are the terrorists, and we learned all we know from Israel. Radical Muslims… Pfftttt!!!

    Ask the fellow in Florida with the 6 torso shots and one in the back of the head. Nevermind, I guess we can’t get his take now. Poor kid. I hope we string those fuckers up and make an example of them. Assholes hiding behind a badge.

  16. Well Rutherford there is a lot to be said about your latest offering. Huck brought up the best point but we can go a little deeper.
    First off I think We the People have suffered a collective case of amnesia or something regards US military actions. Our use of armed force outnumbers our declared wars by a wide margin and I don’t mean just recent history. From day freaking one the USA has brought the big hammer out of the toolbox quick. For rather interesting historical take on the current GWOT I’d invite our friends here to read up on the exploits against the American Indian tribes,the Barbary “War” and the Mexican punitive expedition just prior to WWI.
    For a second dish I’d put forth that we all and I include myself are prone to see things only via the lens we have on hand naturally. That lens is of course US citizens. We have a hard time (if we even try) coming to grips with how radical islamists are very much involved in a spectrum of happenings. The spectrum flows from outright civil war to domestic political tension. I think our failings in this area is why we just get tired about Islam and go the all in route in hating on it. We are best served appreciating that Islam can be a positive tool in combating the radicalism. Something can only push something else so far. If we shove it we get the push back.
    Damn I’m tired…

  17. Raji – good to see you again!

    “I am so enjoying my new Mac Mini and wireless hotspot. Quite an improvement over my previous dial-up and Mac OSX 10.4.”

    Ain’t the Minis the shiz-nit? I have a flight sim that requires a PC; I just put VMWare Fusion on the mini, use Bootcamp to boot, and installed the sim on the PC side. Now the whole sim is small; I don’t have to deal with a PC box and the whole thing works just dandy.

  18. “We are best served appreciating that Islam can be a positive tool in combating the radicalism. Something can only push something else so far. If we shove it we get the push back.” -A

    Ok…can you show me an example where Islam is currently a positive tool in combating radicalism? Because I see it as being naturally inclined to breed radicalism. So, where are these pockets of the Islam providing the foundation for moderation?

    Maybe the Sufi sects? But, that, by definition, is an alternate take on Islam. Plus, those people get killed by……Muslims.

    In Turkey and Indonesia it’s secularism and liberalism that seem to temper the stink beards. Not the faith itself.

    So….I’d like to appreciate it. But…..I can’t get the feel good Kool Aid down. Ever see the polling data on suicide bombing? Half the Muslims the world over support it.

  19. This guy from the commonwealth of MA gets it. Good information.

    This network just landed Larry King. That ought to be a trip.

  20. They go into other countries, and demand that they abide by THEIR rules. Screw these guys, its time to make them an endangered species.

  21. They go into other countries, and demand that they abide by THEIR rules.

    Uncle Sam’s been doing that for decades, now under NATO.

  22. R, we’re still waiting for a defense of liberalism under Obama…

    American households have rebuilt less than half of the wealth lost during the recession, according to a new analysis from the Federal Reserve, hampering the country’s economic recovery.

    The research from the St. Louis Fed shows that households had accumulated net worth totaling $66 trillion at the end of last year. After adjusting for inflation and population growth, the bank found that meant families on average have only made up 45 percent of the decline in their net worth since the peak of the boom in 2007.

    In addition, most of the improvement was due to gains in the stock market, according to the report, primarily benefiting wealthy families. That means the recovery for most households was even weaker.

    Of course, those paying attention to the market know that right now, it is essentially a game of chicken. Investors are trying to rack up gains, irrationally and despite economic indicators, and cash out right before the economic train goes off the rails and the market crashes. Of course, this will only further crush the Middle class as they see their retirement savings hammered again. What will make this crash worse is that family reserves have already been depleted from the 2008 recession.

    Good times….

  23. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha……

    “You Lie”, hmmmmmmmmmm, yes, yes you do.

    WASHINGTON – New health insurance rules under ObamaCare could lead to a host of personal insurance plans being canceled as early as this fall, a scenario expected to cause consumer confusion.

    Under the federal overhaul, those policies that cannot meet new insurance plan standards may be discontinued. This means individuals, and some small businesses, that rely on those plans will have to find new ones.

    The goal is to ensure that most insurance policies offer a basic set of coverage, as part of the Obama administration’s plan to cover most of the nation’s 50 million uninsured.

    Yet it also seems to run afoul of one of the president’s best-known promises on the law: “If you like your health care plan, you’ll be able to keep your health care plan.”

    In fact, state insurance commissioners largely are giving insurers the option of canceling existing plans or changing them to comply with new federal requirements. Large employer plans that cover most workers and their families are unlikely to be affected.

    Of course, I don’t think I need to remind folks that we have been pointing this out since 2009. R, you said we were completely wrong about Obamacare, yet, everything–EVERYTHING–we said has come to fruition thus far.

    The only golden nugget to this will be that if these notices begin in the fall, then 2014 is going to be very, very, very bad for Dems. Who knows, maybe we can see 2015 with a Republican House, a Republican Senate, and a President Biden… 😉

  24. DR@12 – re: Christians vs muslims. Saw a great little article a couple of months ago on this very thing. Summarizing: Of the three desert religions (or Abrahamic religions, take your pick), two have accommodated modernity: Christianity and Judaism. One has not – Islam. Wherever it is, (social) liberalism is out the window. Law must conform to the koran, not the other way around. Women have no rights. The culture must be dragged back to the sixth century and never progress.

    As I always say, catching Islam is like getting rabies. Once it is established, there is no cure; the animal has to be destroyed.

    And IMHO you can’t kill them fast enough.

  25. Gorilla,

    2014 deserves to be a bad year for Dimocrats; for no other reason than the transparent corruption and arrogance. It’s bad enough every idea today’s Dimocrats run up the flagpole is idiotic, cost prohibitive and fails miserably. But when they then start resorting to totalitarian tactics and are encouraged to do so by millions like we’ve seen the last five years, I’ve about had enough to draw arms for real.

    But then 2012 deserved to be a bad year for Dimocrats. I have such little faith in the American people to do the right thing anymore, that I now expect the absolute worst choice(s).

    I’ll admit it. I look at our government and its toadies as pretty much the enemy these days. For real.

    Did you know that women are still….still supporting Barack Obama in large numbers? I hate to admit this, and I always like to think these Fat Grannies snakes are an anomaly, but I am beginning think the majority of women in America are just like them. For every Muffy or someone like my wife, I meet twice as many misandrous jackboots like this Lori twat who look to weak men like Obama to achieve their means. He readily complies to achieve his means.

    It almost makes me wish our military would lay down their weapons, walk off the battle field, come back to America, and hand their rifles to these feminists telling them…

    ‘You go girl…’

    I’m beginning to understand why some of my male friends refuse to date American women, must less think about marrying one. Three older friends, all burned by the courts from money to visitation privileges through the years after divorce, have got three foreign wives who barely speak English.

    Our country isn’t just fracturing by demographic and politic. It’s starting to fracture by gender too I’m afraid.

  26. Tex @ 15. FYI, I just post stupid statements occasionally so you can have someone to knock around. Glad to oblige 😉

    Okay, let’s be PC and not call the crazes in this country who embrace radical Christianity terrorists.
    Yes, DR I do realize the extent of Islamic terrorism and of course any act done under the guise of other religions will not compare. I was just trying to point out that the word “terrorist” can apply to others who are not radical Muslims.

    PF, agree! Wish I hadn’t waited so long but the technology and the price were worth waiting for.

  27. “Who knows, maybe we can see 2015 with a Republican House, a Republican Senate, and a President Biden…”

    Gorilla, bite your tongue 🙂

  28. Tex, from the other blog. I just promised Al that if anyone finds legal grounds to attack you in court, which I doubt can happen,. I will do the same to him. Jean even warned him.

    I have heard the same about Ukrainian women. They are intelligent, attractive, and don’t belittle their men. Mila Kunis is an example of a Ukranian woman. Pop singer Vika is another. She interrupted her career to earn her MA degree.

    No, the fat grannies are not an anomaly. They proved that in the last election.

    I agree with dead rabbit in 20.

    Hi Ragi.

  29. A President Biden is nothing to fear. He would be so weak, and so over matched that he would literally be filling a seat until the 2016 election. Of course, the under lying point to that comment was that Obama would be ousted for the corrupt criminal that he is.

    P.S. My wife is an immigrant too. Hmmmmm, never looked at it that way…

  30. Raji,

    No, you don’t put those over here for my benefit. You convinced me long ago you really are that confused and misinformed.

    But since you like to be offensive, why do Indian women have a red dot on their forehead?

    It’s really a dowry lotto. On the wedding night the groom scratches it off to see whether he won a taxi or a 7-11 for marrying her.

    :mrgreen:

  31. Tex, from the other blog. I just promised Al that if anyone finds legal grounds to attack you in court, which I doubt can happen,. I will do the same to him.

    You mean to tell me those snakes are still contemplating that? {chuckle} That may be the first suit ever filed on behalf of being laughed at.

    Well, if so, the slithering fork tongues should file a class action law suit and Rutherford and Poolman should get first dibs on my huge bundle of assets. Hrrrmmphh I believe the people here should get first dibs because God only knows, they’ve caught worse at one time or another from yours truly.

    I may have to go over again and humiliate them some more. I was going to give them a reprieve with some time to think about apologizing to Rutherford for outing him before they kiss his arse.

    Well, I think I’ll file on behalf of Rutherford as first witness with Lori Lou the self-admitted perpetrator of trying to damage Rutherford’s personal business. And just in case they are so stupid to proceed, I just happened to grab a screen print of Lori Lou’s self admission of outing Rutherford.

    As a bonus, I get to face my accusers with a real full name, big hips, cellulite buttocks, sagging breasts, and hideous face attached. 😈

  32. Rutherford and Poolman should get first dibs on my huge bundle of assets.

    I can’t speak for Rutherford, but as for myself, I wouldn’t touch your huge bundle, not even with a ten foot pool pole. 😀

  33. “Obama would be ousted for the corrupt criminal that he is.”

    Sometimes G you’re as stupid as the day is long. Obama has proven himself ineffective and relatively inconsequential. A corrupt criminal? I guess we’ll have to soepena those “Obama recordings” to prove that. Where’s John Siricca when you need him?

    Yes I know I misspelled soepena. I’m on my phone and too lazy to look it up.

  34. I keep asking you to defend him, and you repeatedly fail, instead flailing at some tangent of no consequence while ignoring the substance of the point. You were so hot-to-trot about how Obama was going to save us in 2008, and again in 2012 how Obama was going to find his grove and take the nation forward, except that you’ve never been able to point to how this was going to happen, or how it has never happened.” – Gorilla, last thread…

    Your “ignorant” argument is intellectually vacant. You know it, but MSNBC keeps it up, so parrot away.

    Pathetic…

  35. I can’t speak for Rutherford, but as for myself, I wouldn’t touch your huge bundle, not even with a ten foot pool pole.

    The bundle I referred to was never too huge and is dwindling fast. My youngest daughter and apparently crumbling castle are seeing to that. Better latch on to the small while you still can.

    Last week, the damn panel on the oven went out and sounded the alarm. For ten minutes, I scanned the net to figure out how to stop the beeping before finally tripping the breaker. Now the only way you can bake something is I have to go to the electric panel, flip the breaker, and I have about ten seconds to enter the temperature or it starts beeping again. POS. 😡

    The other small bundle you implied is truly remarkable. 😉 A shame I can’t put it to better use and you weren’t what I had in mind if the opportunity arises.

  36. Tex don’t bother with Lori. She’s not continued her nonsense that I saw. IMO James and Doc can handle the coven if they want to keep going there.

    The abortion doctor murders are similar to certain terror attacks like the Boston Marathon bombing or the Fort Hood terror massacre, or Oklahoma City. Our colleges have granted tenure to more than a few terrorists from the fashionably turbulent sixties.

    The prez wants to be the “declarer” to the end of the war on terror – fine. Hes got nothing else to offer but words – most of them lies – and after 5 years we know that to be true. Let the 2016 campaign lies start with “Democrats ended the war on terror” and let the foolish nation choose.

    I’m not versed in benefits to initially declaring the fight against terrorism a “war” in the first place, but whatever advantages doing so gave us at the time (wartime-wise) – we might ought to let that advantage go and focus on developing a world class counter-terrorist force. A highly opaque one. That should be right up this president’s alley in terms of what little talent he has.

  37. “Sometimes G you’re as stupid as the day is long. Obama has proven himself ineffective and relatively inconsequential. A corrupt criminal? I guess we’ll have to soepena those “Obama recordings” to prove that. Where’s John Siricca when you need him?”

    Seriously. Obama is incompetent – which is hardly the same as ineffective. And inconsequential?? I suppose if you have lost touch completely with what consequences are then yes, you’re right.

    Obama is a walking talking non-stop consequence..

  38. G, whether you like the idea or not, I NEVER said Obama would find his groove in 2012. I said there was no way in hell I was voting for Mitt Romney … and I didn’t.

    Since you can’t actually have an argument with Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow or David Corn, you make me proxy. If that works for you, fine, but it makes you look delusional.

  39. “It all comes down to Hillary.”

    Then I imagine we’ll see another election turn on delivering the empty-headed vote.

    Whee.

  40. Tex, Jean warned Al about me, and I followed through with my own warning. Tit for tat.

    As muffy wrote, Lori hasn’t done much since you took a break.

    Obama is trying to call a chicken a duck. it is still a chicken. He is continuing his end of the war on terrorism as he tried before the Benghazi attacks .

    We fire people who fail to do their jobs. If he isn’t guilty of criminality, he should be fired for “having proven himself ineffective and inconsequential.” It will never happen, ofcourse, because we don’t punish incompetance. Unless Congress finds incriminating evidence, we are stuck with him. At least future historians will tarnish his legacy.

    I don’t know the benefits of declaring the fight against terrorism a “war” either. it was emotionally satisfying to many after 9/11 and was a concept people could grasp. “We are going to war.”

  41. There’s plenty to suggest much worse than “ineffective and inconsequential” from Obama. I suspect that’s why R and MSNBC are relatively quiet or unwilling to offer meaningful commentary on the subjects.

    And R, why not pick on you as the proxy? You haven’t expressed the concerns over The One that you surely must have. Plus you have a larger audience than Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow and David Corn combined. 😆

  42. “Okay, let’s be PC and not call the crazes in this country who embrace radical Christianity terrorists.”

    Let’s not.

    Raji I’m not sure if the word “many” was found to me more objectionable than the more germane difference in the teachings of the two world religions. Do you know something about non-radicalIslam that I (we) don’t? (It’s a serious question.)

  43. “found to be” that is.

    I personally wasn’t put off by your statement, Raji, I just thought it was a tad pandering or provocative – I couldn’t decide which. Was it intended to be either of those?

    It does cheer me to see rabbit stand up for women and also for what is for me and for many here and all over the world a settled and peaceful belief system. (If a few people want to jump up and down and cry “sure! NOW it is! What about the witches!” – have at it. 😆 )

  44. for many “here” being the US, not Rutherford’s.

    Once again, a little too much coffee for me this morning. But lastly…

    On the subject of the American Woman. It occurred to me the night of the election that women were being heraded for re-signing this failure that one day the celebration will turn to blame. If only for the history books – or the book of life as it were.

    Anyway – the change in women (and men) seems to be the result of the breakdown of the family. Which isn’t a good thing no matter what the upshot is.

  45. “A President Biden is nothing to fear. He would be so weak, and so over matched that he would literally be filling a seat until the 2016 election”

    If he can survive that long without another brain aneurism.

    If he runs, the opposition needs to bring his health into question.

    Which they won’t, of course, do. Because GOP presidential candidates are pussies.

  46. “The prez wants to be the “declarer” to the end of the war on terror”

    Gonna be difficult to push that line while he still drone-kills innocent civilians who happen to stand next to his WoT targets.

  47. “Since you can’t actually have an argument with Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow or David Corn, you make me proxy. If that works for you, fine, but it makes you look delusional.”

    Gorilla didn’t make you their proxy, Rutherford. YOU made you their proxy.

    You’re the one that came in here declaring that you almost thought for yourself on an issue until Rachel Maddow set you straight.

  48. “2014 deserves to be a bad year for Dimocrats; for no other reason than the transparent corruption and arrogance.”

    Problem is, and we can look to this blog as proof, but Liberals need to be right more than they need to feed their families. They will always vote out their own best interests to win politically, even if that win is really a loss as it has been with Barack Hussein.

    I think we will continue to see poor Republican turn out because they see we have gone over the cliff. They see that the majority of the country is buying into this free ride entitlement notion. I think they are hunkering down, and hoping to survive the imminent implosion of our economy as another bubble prepares to burst. By the time we finish uncovering all of the corruption of this administration, Obamacare will be fully realized and coupled with the wall street bubble, its going to be ugly.

  49. This is mainly for Rutherford, who likes to think he knows about the depth of the GOP presidential bench. And it isn’t so much a prediction or a wish on my part, as it is just FYI…much as when I informed him of the talk of Palin being a potential running mate for McCain well before she was ever named as such.

    There is talk of WI gov. Scott Walker taking a shot in 2016. It isn’t loud talk yet, but he has made a couple appearances outside of WI…most recently and notably in Iowa..where he was well-received. Could be he is testing the waters.

    He has already won gubernatorial elections and survived recall elections…despite having a ramped-up opposition that was fueled by bussed-in protesters and massive amounts of money. He knows how to win elections…at least in WI. And his policies seem to be surviving the test of time and implementation.

    Keep your eye on this, Rutherford.

  50. Muffy@49. I honestly was trying to ask a legit question. Strike the word “many”. If a radical Christian commits a crime in this country in the name of his/her religion is that a terrorist act on the same level as if he/she had been a radical Muslim.

    If I appeared to come across as pandering or provocative, it was not my intention and no I do not know more than others about non-radical Islam except to believe that they are no more different than Christians or Jews just because they are Muslims.

  51. Hi back at you, James

    James, remember the M&H blog when you first came over with people like Greytdog et al? It was a good blog at that time but changed when people like Lori and DeLucker took over. I also think whoever was writing the blog at the time is no longer the same.

    Since James has known me as a commenter for a long time I think he could attest to the fact that I am probably one of the least confrontational posters out there.

  52. I’m still waiting for proof of this radical Christianity that Raji speaks about.

    Anybody fill me in Christian suicide bombers and Christians randomly killing in mass murder fashion across this globe? Have I missed something in the news?

    Or is it no longer provocative to smear the association of millions of folks who do more good works across this globe by a hundred fold than any association in existence?

    Perhaps it would do Raji good to come to Moore, OK, and see these “radical” Christians in action.

    She might actually learn something of real value.

  53. Tex I’ve asked this question 3 times now on my debate page. Twice when it came up as a defense on an Islam post and once as an actual question. The only answer I got was the crusades and a report of a christian group in Africa killing people.

  54. “If a radical Christian commits a crime in this country in the name of his/her religion is that a terrorist act on the same level as if he/she had been a radical Muslim.”

    In abstract terms, yes.

    Of course not every Muslim who kills does so in the name of Islam. But we know there are radical Muslims killing in the name of Islam. Tex just hit on this and I have to ask too – are we seeing Christians killing in the name of Christianity?”

    PS…I don’t know you to be confrontational either, Raji, and even if you were so what? I just wanted to know how to consider your remark.

  55. Actually Tex’s question was a little different, but both his and mine still stand. Are Christians killing in the name of Jesus as are the radical Muslims we see in evidence? And then – are there “Christian suicide bombers and Christians randomly killing in mass murder fashion?”

    This isn’t just for you Raji, but if you are seeing this or even interpreting certain murders to be in the name of Christianity – that’s what I’m asking. And I’m asking anyone, everyone.

  56. Speaking of murder I really mangled that second sentence.

    Once more – radical Muslims do kill in the name of Allah. Where/who are the radical Christians killing in the name of Christ?

  57. Perhaps it would do Raji good to come to Moore, OK, and see these “radical” Christians in action.

    Moore ought to be pretty humble about now, looking at the weather. Looks like Tulsa might be getting a bit windy too.

    Raji has always seemed reasonable and considerate. We don’t agree on every issue, but have shared common ideals. I don’t have a problem with folks that share my ideals. I know what I know and we are all unique. Not a cliche, but fact.

    Lord have mercy on Oklahoma, right now. Mercy triumps over judgment in my book.

  58. Brevnik is your radical Christian terrorist, this side of the crusades. Muslims are being slaughtered in Myanmar right now. Of course Bush the lesser thought we were crusading, with the stuff he was focusing on. Can a sniper be a Christian? Serious question.

  59. Tex re: red dot on forehead.

    True story: A guy in my med school class had spent a summer alone in the woods just before starting med school; he was a loner, a hunter, a live-off-the-land kind of fellow and really didn’t brook much shit.

    He was also a brilliant med student, if a bit dour.

    The head of Infectious Diseases, one Rashida Khakoo (cuckoo?) decided to thoroughly upbraid Mike one fine morning when we were 3rd year med studs. Mike had never been one to kiss or suck anything, and she thought she was beautiful. He couldn’t give a shit less, so I guess it seemed like a good idea to fuck with him.

    I thought to myself, “My sweet Hindu princess, you don’t know much about Hillbillies, do you?”

    After a good 5 mins of reaming, I could see it coming: Mike slowly walked over to her and, using his thumb, pressed her red dot hard enough to make her take about four steps backward.

    God, he’s looking at me…fuck, what is he going to say?

    “You know, Jim, if you don’t reset their breaker occasionally, they go crazy.”

    And then he walked off the floor. Absolutely true story.

  60. @dead rabbit…I get that by definition secularism is understood as being divorced from faith. I would say that this is not the reality in practice as it still depends on the masses and they are forged by their respective faiths.
    As for Islam it cannot be discarded that a) the overwhelming majority are nowhere near radical and b) the majority of folks who bear the brunt of Islamist rage are Muslims.
    As for a set example of where Islam can be used as a positive tool in combating radical Islamists I say look everywhere but keep in mind you can’t look through your western lens.

  61. Which is more devout,the average Christian (all denominations) or the average Muslim?
    Not to ask a question without offering some quid pro quo I would say that history tells us that Judaism and Christianity have been used for good and bad. Religion and I stress a difference here between faith and religion,has always been and will always be an opiate for the masses and be utilized that way.

  62. Q: Can a sniper be a Christian?
    A: No
    Q: Can a Muslim be a sniper?
    A: short answer yes. Longer answer is that the person would require guidance and permissions as it were to do so. Here in lies the foundational flaw in Islam which is constantly used by radicals.

  63. #67 is beyond stupid.

    And beyond stupid is a bad thing? I suppose when you’re mired in it everything sensible IS beyond. I suggest you take the spiked heel off BEFORE you put your foot in your mouth.

  64. re 73, I don’t think a true follower of either faith could be. The wolves that infiltrate and indoctrinate can persuade many believers to do most anything, given proper motivation. Unfortunately, there are many weak-minded among the flock that will blindly follow those that claim a higher understanding and possess leadership qualities.

  65. Three older friends, all burned by the courts from money to visitation privileges through the years after divorce, have got three foreign wives who barely speak English.

    The liberal Gods will smite me for saying this but I am getting sick and tired of American citizens who make no effort to learn the goddam language.

    It’s gotten so bad I called a number this week and the computer voice said “Press 1 if you speak English”. WTF!!!!! English should be the damn default. I have no problem with voice response units (VRU’s) saying in Spanish to press 2 if you speak Spanish. But DAMN now I have to press a special button if I speak the native tongue?

    I used to get on my high horse about folks expecting Americans to speak English but recent experience has changed my mind. Not only do many of these long time residents refuse to learn the language, they get nasty when you can’t understand a word they say on the phone.

    I know we liberals are good for bashing this country but I’ve got to tell you in some ways America is tolerant to a fault.

    Hey Chin Fat … you’re not a f*cking tourist, you’re a citizen … learn the goddam language! 😦

    Sorry … had to get that off my chest. It’s been a long day.

  66. Yet another tangent off the red dot on the forehead (BTW Raji, so good to see you back on the blog … hope you’ve been well).

    When I was in elementary school one of my teacher’s aids came to work on Ash Wednesday appropriately adorned. My Mom had taught me not to ask rude questions so I spent the whole day traumatized. The minute I got off the bus I told my mother (I couldn’t say “r” at the time), “It’s awful, Lowetta had a terrible burn on her head.” My Mom smiled and said “don’t worry, today is Ash Wednesday and some people have a bit of ash on their forehead today.”

    I loved “Lowetta”, a sweet but tough old lady if there ever was one and I was so relieved to find out she wasn’t hurt. 🙂

  67. “The liberal Gods will smite me for saying this but I am getting sick and tired of American citizens who make no effort to learn the goddam language.”

    Just be glad you don’t live in California

  68. Huck your Rachel Maddow example doesn’t quite cut it. It wasn’t a matter that I was “thinking for myself” until Rachel Maddow told me what to think. It’s that I got inundated with “expert” testimony from the likes of Gorilla and Rabbit and started ignoring my own common sense. All Maddow did was remind me of what I knew already.

    My proxy point still stands. I’ve been called a Bush basher when compared to my liberal brethren I’ve been pretty easy on Bush, at least rhetorically. I’ve been accused of voting for Obama in 2012 cos I thought he was Jesus when on the contrary I said through much of the 3rd quarter of 2012 that my vote in November would be a vote AGAINST Romney.

    Now folks can believe what they like, but I have already warned several lib friends of mine that if we see a Christie/Clinton battle in 2016, I am voting for Christie.

    P.S. I was also very vocal in 2011 and 2012 in my disappointment that Obama was not primaried. I point you to the following :

    In short, there seems something undemocratic in anointing Obama the nominee without challenge, without debate, without discussion of alternatives. Shouldn’t we liberals at least get to see a couple of folks debate how best to achieve liberal goals?

  69. Just be glad you don’t live in California

    I guess you forgot … I work in California. What do you think has got me so pissed off? I cover northern CA, Utah and Nevada.

  70. Alfie @70 ” I say look everywhere but keep in mind you can’t look through your western lens.”

    Well said, Alfie and your comments in 70 and 72 expressed my thoughts much better than my feeble attempt 😉

  71. Rutherford @76. Must be frustrating to say the least 🙂
    I remember visiting Montreal in the 70’s when their “War on Language” was occurring between French and English. The French Canadians in Montreal refused to speak or acknowledge English. One could not even order in a restaurant unless you ordered in French. I spent my time studying the hotel’s room service menu so we could dine out.

    Maybe this country could benefit with a “War on Language” not to make light of your recent post.

    Thanks for the welcome back. I am well but my computer was not.

  72. I don’t deny Alfie that we can’t look at Islam through a Western lens and understand the motives. But I got news for many of you as we pussy foot around with our own version of PC. Islam has NEVER been a religion of peace. EVER. Not from the inception. And until we can admit that, game over.

    However, if I told you we ought to be looking at Islam through the Eastern lens of Judaism, I don’t think you agree either. We should be adopting Israeli tactics, but we don’t have the guts to do so in our name of tolerance, which is really just moral relevance.

    And I’ll be damned. Rutherford is learning the hard way what I’ve been bitching about for 20 years now. Tolerant to a fault? It’s not tolerance. It’s rank stupidity not demanding immigrants assimilate into the system. What you have now is in no way Ellis Island 1901. It’s Yugoslavia.

    I don’t care who this pisses off now. There are large parts of every city in America that have been RUINED because we didn’t demand assimilation.

  73. Rutherford I can’t reconcile how you can vote for Christie before you see him run at the level. His current claims to fame actually don’t paint a picture of a POTUS that would get much done.
    As resident Mitt booster I just have to point out the irony that your continued snippets of anti-Mitt at the same time screeching against the portion of the famed 47% that fail to assimilate to a level of the language.

  74. @ Tex 85 I base it on that a devout Christian should not be able to/quite simply can’t reconcile beliefs in the teachings of Jesus Christ with “one shot one kill”.
    One of the things I hate the most about religion (this connects with the earlier difference between faith & religion) is how people try to justify actions. Like military chaplains actually trying to help you come to grips that killing is cool with Jesus.
    Seriously a devout Christian in my eyes shouldn’t be in the military,at the least not in combat arms specialties anyway.

  75. @ Tex 86 I have always made it a point to share that Islam in fact was not developed to be a religion of peace imo. The truth appears that it was created to be a tool to foster unity and conquest. There is a caveat though. A religion that has many positive attributes grew out of it where followers in the majority are just trying to get through life via the Five Pillars.
    Islam especially the more zealous and radical forms of it do indeed catch the headlines and do indeed drive much of the conversation. I just don’t think that’s the only game in town re Muslims. This is oversimplifying but it is a great example still. The radicals such as the Taliban don’t allow soccer (football) and movies. The majority of Muslims love both. Iran in fact is very proud of their endeavors in international sports and movie festival sponsorships and attendance.
    However, if I told you we ought to be looking at Islam through the Eastern lens of Judaism, I don’t think you agree either. We should be adopting Israeli tactics, but we don’t have the guts to do so in our name of tolerance, which is really just moral relevance.
    This one confused me. FWIW I actually find the Israelis pretty tolerant about Islam outside of the tensions on the Jerusalem real estate. Outside of Zionism issues I find Jewish people pretty consistent regards their faith

  76. In support of Alfie, a Muslim college classmate was attractive, intelligent, and popular. He and his girlfriend were considering marriage.

    She as a Christian worried about religious teaching. He said ” you can teach our children anything you choose.” Then, they will come to me, and I will teach them the truth.” The couple broke up.

    I see no reason for a devote Christian to refuse military service, and that includes being a sniper.

  77. A devout Christian follows Christ’s teaching which says love your neighbor as yourself and do unto others as you would have them do unto you and we war not against flesh and blood. I’m with Alfie, it cannot be honestly reconciled with a military face.

  78. If our militias were strictly a defending force, it could be easier justified to take up carnal weapons and defend one’s land and property and life against an aggressor. Otherwise, a NT scholar or a true spiritual believer would be hard-pressed to find any validation in the Word for bearing or supporting arms.

    I know we have bastardized the Christian faith here in America. There is a widely held notion that nationalism or patriotism is somehow faith based. It isn’t and is actually considered idolatry.

  79. I actually have to get out and work today. I prefer to not get out there, but I’m covered over and next week is already filled. Feast or famine. I got to work while it’s available in preparation for the next inevitable crash coming to a neighborhood near you. Have a great day!

  80. @ Tex 85 I base it on that a devout Christian should not be able to/quite simply can’t reconcile beliefs in the teachings of Jesus Christ with “one shot one kill”.

    Sorry Alfie. That is in direct conflict to what the Bible says of soldiers even in the New Testament and I lead you to the Book of Acts to prove it. Christ’s teaching didn’t start in Matthew and stop at Acts 2 – only the reprobate doesn’t understand that all of scripture is always applicable.

    There is huge difference between thou shall not murder and intent of protection. In fact Christ instructed his own Disciples to pick up a sword.

    To not understand that demonstrates a very immature, almost childish view of Christianity. In fact, Christians are referred to in one of the most famous hymns as ‘Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching As to War.’

    Were none of our Founding Fathers could be Christian either?

    Peter nor Paul condemned soldiers, and in fact Paul used Roman soldiers, some who had converted to Christianity, as protection as Roman citizen. Paul called them Christians. Do we know better than St. Paul?

    And if you look to the Old Testament as guide, the greatest of Christ’s lineage were not just soldier, but a warrior. David was referred to twice as a man after ‘God’s own heart. David had buckets of blood on his hands.

    That do unto others has been used so many times as excuse for cowardice masquerading as meek, that it is only second in twisted perversion of canon to ‘judge not lest ye be judged.’

  81. I know we have bastardized the Christian faith here in America.

    No one would know that better than you… 😐 Ironic coming from the mouth of a former Barack Obama supporter.

    If you’re so much wiser than the rest of us, believer or not, why did it take you so long to pick up on this President clearly a hypocrite and liar?

  82. Well Tex we’re indeed going to have to agree to disagree. I find no reason to believe the passages in the Bible that do indeed speak well of soldiers who act in noble ways are to be accepted as saying WWJD= carefully aim your Barrett rifle and splatter the persons gray matter upon the wall.
    Your hymn selection doesn’t pass muster either. “…as to war…” isn’t to be confused with going off to mortal war.
    The faith principles of Christ CLEARLY dictate not fighting and not killing and specifically for a sniper,unseen by their target,quite often taking out someone not actively engaged in a a hostile act….there is no passage that clears that.

  83. Well I didn’t think it was a simple question. I did think though that there would be scores of examples and a depth of knowledge on the subject of radical Islam to support the frequent reminders that the religion is equivalent or even comparable on the subject of killing in the name of their God to Christianity and/or Judaism. Something from modern times would have been a bonus.

    PS…Tex, you don’t suppose people regard this as the one subject on which pools is not a raving lunatic, do you?

    PPS…it is good to see you again Raji.

  84. I think I broke my hand. I went nuts after morning basketball in the locker room over a contested foul 20 minutes earlier. I almost fought 3 other teachers and punched a closed door very hard while throwing everything in site. WTF is wrong with me? They think I’m on steroids now. It wasn’t until I noticed I was holding a bent badmitten racket in my hand that I realized how utterly ridiculous I was being. Pretty embarrassing for a guy my age. If the students only knew. A toddler tantrum.

    I suppose this is what happens when you hire a roofer as a teacher.

  85. In all fairness dead rabbit you’re not actually leading a stress free life of late. Hang in there man,at least you vented the hardest on an inanimate object and not a loved one or innocent bystander.

  86. Muffy…do you think all the killing and maiming etc done in the name of Mohammed,Allah,or Islam are actually done truly in the name of?

  87. No, Alfie @#100

    @#67 I asked it this way – “radical Muslims do kill in the name of Allah. Where/who are the radical Christians killing in the name of Christ?”

    Rabbit’s #11 & 12 and several of Tex’s follow ups are remain uncontested as far as radical Christianity.

  88. Alfie, as a PS – I think we’re going to need to take the word “truly” out of your question or we’re going to go down a Clintonian rabbit hole there.

  89. “Muffy…do you think all the killing and maiming etc done in the name of Mohammed,Allah,or Islam are actually done truly in the name of?”

    I do. The converts to murderous stinkbeardom transcends all ethnic, racial and class barriers. Dirt poor Nigerians to rich boys in Kuwait. White boys in the Balkans to Filipino jungle bunnies. Plus, they are all clear as hell why they slaughter.

  90. @ Muffy…fwiw I don’t subscribe to the concept of “radical Christians” I think it kind of a misnomer. No doubt the history books up to the present have pages highlighting fundamentalists and such but there in lies the rub. They are clearly connected to an agenda or “ism”
    As for taking out the truly….I don’t think I can have that. The key to the issue IMO is that the ignorance of the masses is so easily controlled and acted on by others by simply going the “in the name of…” route.
    That said I willingly go on record that the Islamic world is particularly and unfortunately ignorant hence many of their domestic issues.
    Take Saudi Arabia and the bogus balancing act between the monarchy and the Wahhabis. All across the spectrum folks use religion to control people,opinion and their own power positions there. It’s a lie.
    All across the North Africa nations that are Islamic there has been a legacy about keeping bread affordable. This was all about feeding people allegedly. In reality it was about sensationalizing something and distracting people.

  91. @ Alfie. OK, but if you don’t cotton to the notion that any God/god directs any of us, “truly” is going to be hard to work with.

    But OK, so those not “truly” acting in the name of their God – let’s call them the misguided or disobedient religious fringe – aside…

    Do you think “radical Islam” is also a misnomer?

    My next question is going to be – radical Islam is at war with non-Muslims. True or False?

  92. @#77 – Rutherford my brother couldn’t pronounced his “r’s” either. Occasionally I’d try helping him say his name – “rrrrrrrrrrr-Robert.”

    He’d earnestly respond with – “rrrrrrrrrrrrr-Wobert.”

  93. “They are clearly connected to an agenda or “ism””

    The agenda or “ism” sometimes conncects to religoius movement.

    Luther and his followers were authentic. Many German princes that backed him did it to screw over Rome. So, maybe those dudes weren’t. But Alfie, I argue you are putting the cart in front of the horse and then wrongly proclaiming it as a constant. Politics highjack religious movements….but the religious movement are exactly that, religious movements independent of any ism.

  94. “Radical Islam is at war with non-Muslims and Muslims”

    True. But, Radical Islamic philosophy is much more accepted then I think you care to admit. As many have pointed out…..Islam is a political system and a religion. So, the more devout you become, the more radical you become by default. Of course, I’m operating off the assumption you think a lack of freedom and oppressing women is a net negative.

    99% percent of the time, the more devout a Christian becomes, the more nice shit said Christian does for people who are suffering, even people who the Christian sees as living in sin.

    Christians feed and cloth homeless gay prostitutes crack smokers. Muslims kill them.

  95. At dr we are going to fall off the tangent,Janice and semantics cliff here but here goes.
    I agree with you that Islam is a political system as well as a faith. It is also clear it has never had its Reformation moment and I don’t hold my breath waiting for it to do so.
    Politics do indeed hijack religious movements but I think religious movements have also clearly went forth as more than faith based entities and in turn attempt to hijack society or at least heavily shape it.
    The concept of “isms” is huge with me. For example Judaism is not the same as Zionism. With advanced apologies to the Catholics Catholicism isn’t 100% Christianity. The isms are those things we humans do to ideals incarnate. In doing so we really ¥~^* it all up.
    Your points about devotion are good but they seem to assume two things. First that a devout Muslim will forsake the basic tenants and totally embrace the sword verse instead. This just doesn’t fly. The second part is a slippery slope. From modern western viewpoint the totality of submission is uber foreign and we mock it and place our values upon its followers. This is where my detachment disorder kicks in too far I guess.
    I will say though that :
    “Christians feed and cloth homeless gay prostitutes crack smokers. Muslims kill them”
    Is a good shot.

  96. R – “Yes I know I misspelled soepena. I’m on my phone and too lazy to look it up.”

    Pierre and Boudreaux wuz a-talkin’ de odder day. Pierre say, “Boudreaux, I got’m a sub-peena today. Whut be dat?”

    “Pierro, you be de dummest Cajon in de swamp. It Latin – an’ it mean — well, you gotsa brake it down in to its parts — lemme see — well, “sub” – dat mean “below.”

    “An’ peena – well we all know what a peena iss.

    “So you puts it bak togedder, an wha’ sub-peena mean is, dey gots you by de balls.”

  97. DR – pull it together, man. Look at your babies and think to yourself how easy it would be to lose it and end up in jail – take it from me; I know how close you can come or how easy to cross the line. There is no going back once you get a charge against you or you hurt somebody. And if you are a big guy, they won’t take you on man to man. They will put their hands on whatever is AT hand and really fuck you up or kill you. And if you have made a habit of what happened this morning, they will be thinking about it and already know what they are going to do.

    I know what I’m talking about – I won’t tell you how. Chill out, man, it is a million times over not worth it.

  98. “Christians feed and cloth homeless gay prostitutes crack smokers. Muslims kill them.”

    Well said, Bre’r Rabbit. Damned well-said. I am going to steal and use that whenever possible.

  99. The faith principles of Christ CLEARLY dictate not fighting and not killing and specifically for a sniper,unseen by their target,quite often taking out someone not actively engaged in a a hostile act….there is no passage that clears that.

    Then by all means, justify the entire Book of the Revelation for me.

    And you still haven’t address my question of Peter and Paul. What do you know that Christ’s direct apostles and founders of the church don’t?

  100. PS…Tex, you don’t suppose people regard this as the one subject on which pools is not a raving lunatic, do you?

    “Truly” Muffy, I think this is where Pools is at his dead level worst. It’s one thing to simply be depraved and crazy in a personal life. It’s quite another to profane a faith. That’s a step up in offensive.

    It’s like Raji. I could pretty much care less what she believes. If she rejects who Christ said He was, that’s her choice. It’s quite another to demean a faith in the most unfair manner possible – and yes, I do think that was exactly her intent.

    But if Raji thinks she knows something better than these “radical” Christians, then I challenge her to show me someone or something that does more good by their works than “radical” Christians and we’ll make that the measurement. She won’t find one.

  101. I’m just wondering what a man like Alfie, a reasonable man, would think Christ would tell us if by chance if Islam decided to kill and maim all American women and children.

    Am I then to lay down my arms in the name of “turning the other cheek?”

    Please…

    There are eight things after 40+ years of study of the Bible, both Old and New Testament, that I am absolutely sure God hates:

    (1) Arrogance
    (2) A Lying Tongue
    (3) Hands That Shed Innocent Blood
    (4) A Heart That Plots Wicked Schemes
    (5) Eagerness to do Evil
    (6) A Lying Witness Who Gives False Testimony
    (7) One Who Stirs Up Trouble Among Brothers
    (8) Cowardice

    I can base seven of those directly from scripture. And you’ll notice no where does it talk about God hating righteous defense or condemning just war. The eight one I listed is evident numerous times through both Old and New Testament.

    But a soldier fighting a just war is not condemned – anywhere. In fact, it talks about no greater love than a man to lay down a life for another.

    Now if the sniper was shooting innocents – well, that is a different manner. But you’re going to have to convince me that these snipers are killing in cold blood without just cause. And the very first commandment giving to Noah upon leaving the ark (after be fruitful and multiply – the only command we seem to be flawless at following) was prescribing if a man shed’s innocent blood, then his blood shall be shed.

    Jesus never came to abolish the law – it still holds.

  102. But a soldier fighting a just war is not condemned – anywhere.

    A just war is called jihad, if you’re Muslim. They do believe in spreading their faith. That is what evangelizing is to the Christian faith, but it wasn’t ever intended as a violent undertaking. More turbulent and spiritual warfare. The Catholics did perfect the exorcist aspect. They believe in demons and supernatural. The others are more tame. Judaism slaughtered the unholy peoples to take over promised land. Just is a matter of perspective.

  103. I want to goon record that I have a great deal of respect for snipers and have served with and socially engaged a few in my time,both military and law enforcement folks.

  104. poolman – I don’t agree with you on several things, especially the Jews, but I have to give it to you; you’re consistent.

    I do have to agree that it’s a matter of perspective, and it’s the inability to see from the other man’s perspective that has led to so much senseless slaughter.

    Ah, The Damned Human Race – Twain

  105. “DR – pull it together, man.”

    I know. It’s unbelievably immature. I’m not a bully type or anything. But…every now and then, once a year maybe, I fly into an absolute fit of rage. Over pick up basketball….no less!

    Thank God the 4 poor souls in that locker room office scattered for their safety after they realized I’m obviously struggling with a sort of mental illness. I keep thinking if one of those guys would have continued challenging me I would have gone on the attack.

    Now I am cringing with embarrassment.

    It’s interesting that you brought up my boys. I conquered a terrible road rage issue by always thinking of them if anything arises while driving.

    Wrath truly is a deadly sin and I’m done going there.

  106. “this is where Pools is at his dead level worst.”

    It baffles me that it’s also the only time people almost seem to take him seriously.

    Nutley doesn’t suddenly become reasonable or go sane on this subject.

  107. Poolman makes a lot of sense sometimes. Other times, not so much….

    I agree with #129, Muffy. He’s good at what he does.

  108. Re: Krauthammer

    Yeah…..that was good.

    It sucks to be at war with radical religious fanatics. But, pretending we are not isn’t the answer. Sometimes I think Obama believes his hollow bull shit speeches have magical powers.

    It really is all “hope” with that guy, isn’t.

  109. Lol….the weird thing is I just watched a Nirvana concert from Seatlle in October of 1991. They chose to have two dancing girls who employed the same exact dance moves.

  110. “Sometimes I think Obama believes his hollow bull shit speeches have magical powers.”

    One more inglorious event his administration is involved in and he’s likely to declare peace in the Middle East.

    This resonated from the Krauthammer article (re Gitmo) –

    “Having posed the central question, what is Obama’s answer? “I am confident that this legacy problem can be resolved.

    That’s it! I kid you not.”

  111. “Poolman makes a lot of sense sometimes.”

    😆 Pools is that floater turd that inexplicably pops back up after you flush.

    I forget where that’s from. Eddie Murphy maybe. 😆

  112. “It’s like Raji. I could pretty much care less what she believes. If she rejects who Christ said He was, that’s her choice. It’s quite another to demean a faith in the most unfair manner possible – and yes, I do think that was exactly her intent.”

    What have you been smoking, Tex? How you got all that out of my comments is beyond me. Reject and demean a faith is what you think my intent was in asking a question regarding the use of the word “terrorists” in relation to all religions not just radical Islam?

  113. Raji,

    Where is the radical Christianity you speak? You’ve been asked now by four different people and have yet to answer.

    Be specific. And yes, I absolutely think it was top notch moral equivalency and bankrupt to the max – your passive aggressive style not withstanding.

  114. “It’s interesting that you brought up my boys. I conquered a terrible road rage issue by always thinking of them if anything arises while driving.
    Wrath truly is a deadly sin and I’m done going there.”

    I won’t go into details, but I came within microns of getting my 30 year-old stepdaughter by the throat at Christmas. I call her “30 – going on 7.” Pouty, obnoxious little bitch – entirely self-centered, concerned about no one and nothing except her personal social standing with her friends.

    It was a close thing, and I have completely avoided all contact with her since. She’s used to exchanging apologies and then back to business as usual; I don’t work that way.

    I have considered buying “lisabehavingbadly.com,” which is available, by the way, and posting cell phone videos of her little tirades there. My cell phone originally belonged to her mother, so I have all the contact info for her friends. Just post a video and then send a multi-text invitation to them all, and her. Then again the next little tirade. The social embarrassment would be more than she could bear; I suspect that – at least around me – she would behave.

    Thirty fucking years old. Jesus. We should have taken leather belts to our kids’ asses when they were young.

  115. Ragi can’t answer the question about radical Christianity because such radicals only occupy the fringes of the religion and they aren’t really a factor. Someone estimated that maybe a tenth of Muslims supported jihadism and given the number of believers, that number is in the millions. Others, who remain non-violent give tacit approval, so the percentage is even higher than a tenth. Unlike Christians, others fear extremists and mute their criticism if they feel brave enough to say anything.

    My mother hit me a lot when I was little. Once she knocked the wind out of me. Thus, I spanked our children only once a piece, and we talked about it first. Their hated punishment was my holding their hands for ten or fifteen minutes, and my forbidding them from watching anything but public TV for a summer. My wife brooked no back talk.

    Childhood and parenthood is forever. Erma Bombeck, I think, wrote that childhood guilt is the gift that keeps giving.

  116. “Reject and demean a faith is what you think my intent was in asking a question regarding the use of the word “terrorists” in relation to all religions not just radical Islam?” Raja

    Yeah…your question rested on a premise. That premise was that there are “many Christian terrorists” in this country.

    I think its fair we call you out on that.

    Even that evil couple of families who disrespect fallen soldiers etc. and call themselves Baptist, aren’t really terrorists. If they are, they are legally sanctioned terrorists. Cults are also not really terrorist groups. Quite the opposite as they withdraw from society, not attack it.

    There are a few, tiny groups related to the Aryan Nation type organized crime syndicates that maybe you could call Christian terrorists. They have at least been associated with violence, most of it in prisons.

    Hundreds of millions of people in America. And…I can’t really think of any.

    So……the ball is in your court, Raji. It’s ok to be provocative here. We all do it in our own way. Just admit you spewed a little verbal ka ka.

  117. In defense of Raji’s POV –

    As the sole lifelong atheist in this little world of Rutherford’s, I claim a little objectivity on the religions, for none of which I believe the first word.

    It’s been observed that of the three desert religions, only Islam has not accommodated modern times. Stipulated. It is a cancer on the soul of humanity.

    But, IMHO – and it is my opinion only – nobody else is lily-white, either. There is absolutely nothing other than the law in first-world countries to prevent the Christians from doing exactly what they have done before – intimidate, abuse – yes, even kill – those who disagree or challenge their authority. It’s just too tempting, and having the Absolute Word Of God spurring you on makes it all the more likely.

    It wouldn’t be the first time.

  118. “There is absolutely nothing other than the law in first-world countries”

    I can see where you are coming from. But I have to ask, where do you think that law came from?

    And there lies our disagreement. You would say the Enlightenment of Europe happened despite Christianity. And I think it happened because of it.

    I remember a long time ago, Tex and I had a nasty one on here because I said that Christianity helped bring down the Roman Empire. I never got a chance to explain myself before Tex, always on the defense due to the constant barrage of dumb dumb comments like we saw from Raji, turned green Hulk style.

    The Roman Empire, from a Christian stand point, was 100% morally bankrupt. The Roman Empire needed to collapse. It didn’t respect individual life. So it goes down, nobody drinking he cult of the Emperor bull shit (amongst many other factors), and the hierarchy kind of remains in the Catholic Church during the barbaric pseudo apocalyptic Dark and Middle Ages. But what do you know?…..Christians, using their faith…start to question that set up as well. They keep following this line of thinking until they arrive at the notion of natural rights given to us by God. It’s beautiful!

    Your use of history is odd. In your life time, you have seen what governments are capable of doing when they enforce atheism! Millions upon millions upon millions dead! Remember, the laws in Animal Farm were written on the broadside of the barn for all to see. But, individual life wasn’t sacred. Thus, we saw unprecedented evil.

  119. By the way….you didn’t defend Raji’s POV at all. Proclaiming your atheism and/or alluding to a mutual distrust of Christian institutions you guys may share doesn’t defend her point of view. Does it?

    .

  120. DR – My understanding is that the fall of the Roman Empire was due to lots of things, with minority credit going to Christianity. Primarily it was due to the fact that they had existed for centuries by conquering foreign lands and confiscating their wealth and making them slaves. They eventually ran out of places to conquer or gold to steal. And – good lesson for us – their bloated welfare system was utterly unsustainable; the “Citizens” did not have to work and weren’t about to start; the Germanic tribes that sacked Rome had no such notions.

    “Your use of history is odd. In your life time, you have seen what governments are capable of doing when they enforce atheism!”

    I would submit that the US has done well (up to now) precisely because it never allowed the mixing of govt and religion – not enforced atheism, but also not officially Christian, either. Those that mixed the two are in the “dustbin of history.” The failures of the officially atheist regimes, primarily communist, are due to their flawed govt model, not their atheism.

    Enforced atheism is IMHO a very bad thing, because it flies in the face of personal freedoms, one of which is that you worship whatever you please, without govt interference. So we agree there, but I think that is a separate issue from, “enforced atheism makes people evil.” They are capable of evil with or without atheism, with or without religion.

    But, as the pundit said, For really good people to do really evil things, it takes religion. I know of no exception.

  121. I don’t know for sure but I think Raji was coming from a different place than has been read into her comments.
    I think it tied in with my earlier forays into talk about looking through different lenses.
    For example outside of the West on the topic of honor killings there are those that ponder the choice of adjectives and motives thereof.
    For ex. why isn’t it considered an honor killing when a relative kills an abusive husband or a cheating spouse?
    Why is it every act in the Islamic world gets tagged Islamic terror when in fact there are a number of cases where the connection to the faith is tenuous at best whereof a Christian blows up a clinic or blocks it they are not publicized as Christian but something more along the political lines involved.
    I’m not saying these are my views just that I have seen them out there and they are real.

  122. To the history chatter… Can’t it be said that part of how people felt about the various religion entities especially the Holy Roman Empire and their tentacles through Europe helped to foster other denominations nd other takes on governance?

  123. There is a lot of mention of evil and murderous acts by religious and non religious groups, but no mention by non believers as to who or what motivates that. It isn’t evident within any other species of life. (Though I have heard there are about 20 known alien species and some are inherently evil, but that’s a topic for another day) I would like to hear an atheist’s take on what they think causes that. Is that merely a symptom of what evolved?

    Eric Prince’s group, whatever they are called now, I would say are Christian terrorists. Just because our government employs them, doesn’t change that. The KKK the same. Although groups like that claim to be Christian, their actions and beliefs are twisted, not unlike radical Muslim terrorists.

    Christianity evolved as a religion, but it was not that in it’s origin. It was a call for people to repent of evil and turn back toward God. That call had been made numerous times throughout history, resulting in the often killing of the messenger, because, well folks just were naturally evil and didn’t want to be otherwise.

  124. As for the USA I think the Founders assumed a level of permanent morality as much as anything and never imagined they would need to enforce morality or accept what could reasonably be considered immoral even if not illegal. That comes with democracy though. We the People baby!

  125. The Muslims regard Jesus a prophet, but not equal to God as Christians profess. The Jews regard Him a liar and deceiver, with the Talmud claiming He is presently boiling in excrement. Yet western civilizations see Judaism as non threatening and Islam as a threat. It is all MANipulation™. Do Muslims have other teachings they hold higher than the Koran like some Jews and some Christians do? My take is not, though some follow radical interpretations led by some of the Mullahs.

    It seems to boil down to believing and following man as opposed to G-d, God, or Allah.

  126. poolman – re: motivation for murder. Ditto the horrible urge to subjugate others. It’s just in the genetic code, IMHO. We are just an extremely violent species. We KNOW from our consciences that it is wrong/evil, but we can’t stop, so we need a way to justify it. Once you have a “justification,” it’s Katie-bar-the-door. Especially justification from the Big Guy.

    I try to expose that justification as just what it is – bogus. We just have to step up to the plate, put on our big-boy pants, accept our nature and do the best we can to control it, instead of trying to prove that it is OK.

  127. Many of the founders were deists. Many practiced freemasonry. That doesn’t make them Christian. Franklin was into satanism and occult practices. Morality was better understood, though the individual was free to practice immorality as long as other men and other property was not harmed in the process. The indigenous peoples were mixed in their moral practices among their various cultures. But it was pretty clear what good and evil was. Charismatic folks could sway opinion and lead others astray, but they did not have the vast propaganda mechanisms we employ today.

  128. It’s just in the genetic code, IMHO.

    That it is inherent in our beings is biblical. The genetic code is being deciphered by well-meaning folks. Do you think they will stumble upon the ‘evil’ gene and determine to eliminate it? That is the way we are going in our processes. It is not the right approach, imo.

  129. Franklin was into satanism and occult practices.
    and the crazy train rolls into the station.

    PF do you think evil is solely a nature thing as opposed to a nurture thing? Combination?

  130. Alfie – I hate to give the “combination” argument, as that is usually the hallmark of a cop-out, but I think that applies.

    No doubt there are what my buddy Joe calls “defective carbon units.” Sociopaths who really have no empathy for the suffering of others – and I mean NONE. To them anything goes. I know some kids right now – with good parents – who I think are really headed down that path.

    For others, it’s a question of “Kick a dog long enough and you make him mean.” A guy my older brother talks about, whose father would get drunk and chain him to a tombstone in the cemetery and leave him all night in the pitch dark, comes to mind. This is before Rural Electrification in the ‘thirties. When I say dark, I mean DARK. He later went into business for himself in Cleveland as a “murder for hire.” (I think they call them “button men.”) No bull.

    Isn’t somebody here a counsellor for troubled kids? Hell, he’s the expert…

  131. PF thats cool. Although I do indeed subscribe to the thought of “free will” and that humans suck for the most part I think there are a great number of us that do good and do it for good reasons. I think supporting and finding support in a faith/religion is a-o.k. and in fact helps people do the right thing. The more scientific & secular approach works too. Both have their respective pitfalls though where they legitimize grand scale suffering and debauchery.
    I fully agree with you that some folks are truly evil via medical reasons,the sociopaths and psychopaths. I think the majority though just get there via their surroundings and inherent weaknesses of humanity. It is hy they do bad things and ironically why they can repent and feel genuine remorse later on.

  132. A general comment directed at the earnest – Faith in Christ doesn’t keep the Christian from sin – even murder. It also does not follow that faith in Christ is the impetus for the killing. Disobedience and whatever wordly impulses/compulsions are at play motivate the believer who sheds innocent blood.

    Rabbit’s well-turned phrase was so much more than just a quotable quote.

    I’m willing to thrown down that 0% of Christians believe in killing non-Christians for their beliefs or to win favor with the Lord.

    “…and the crazy train rolls into the station”.

    😆 Headed for the Hotel Imbecile and all points in between.

  133. re 155, I suppose you are unfamiliar with the Hellfire Club and their practices. It doesn’t change any facts I merely stated. If that is crazy, well then I guess crazy is where it’s at.

    My first inclination anymore is if the mainstream or its mouthpieces call something or someone crazy, there has to be truth they are trying to suppress. ‘Crazy’ is an all-too-common diversionary call nowadays, but not a tactic by any means. Galileo was considered crazy and even accused of heresy, spending his latter years under house arrest.

  134. The thing is I am indeed familiar with the Hellfire Club,its history of membership and its actions. I am also intensely studied on old Ben and am more than willing to point out the error of your ways in aligning him with Satan or the occult.
    I will agree with you that the crazy brush is used to discredit people,it is undeniable. The problem I personally have with you is how you seemingly wholeheartedly embrace contrarian thought as if it were gospel. I could respect you far more if I got an inkling that you weighed the sources you post here. The vibe I get is you see something and just run with it.

  135. First off I don’t see what your delusions regards the Boston Marathon have to do with exploring the US military and war which 158 is about.
    I know people that had feet on the ground on Boylston Street that day and have had the chance to converse with folks from Cambridge and Watertown MA and everything you’ve ever posted on the incident has been proven to be a lie and/or grossly malicious prattle.

  136. terrorist |ˈterərist|
    noun
    a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.
    DERIVATIVES
    terroristic |ˌterəˈristik|adjective,
    terroristically adverb
    ORIGIN late 18th cent.: from French terroriste, from Latin terror (see terror). The word was originally applied to supporters of the Jacobins in the French Revolution, who advocated repression and violence in pursuit of the principles of democracy and equality.

    “When George W. Bush declared a ‘War on Terror’ in September 2001 he was employing a new, and highly charged, synonym for terrorism. Before 2001, terror was a fairly uncommon word in the Oxford English Corpus, but it has since shown a steady rise in use, with the majority of examples being used synonymously with terrorism. It is now commonly seen as a modifier, with attack, bombing, suspect, and plot all common collocates.”

    DR, It’s all about semantics isn’t it but if you want to call it verbal ka ka go right ahead. My understanding of the meaning of the word “terrorist” is apparently different from yours. If you think I was trying to be provocative then so be it. My mistake was using the words “many” and “radical” with regard to Christians forgetting that for some on this board that is equal to waving a red flag in front of the bull. Mea culpa!

  137. “The failures of the officially atheist regimes, primarily communist, are due to their flawed govt model, not their atheism.”

    I’m not really talking about their failures. I’m talking about their morality.

    At the essence of Christianity is that life is sacred and individuals mean something.

    At the heart of Communism….or National Socialism….or Japanese Emperor worship….and now Radical Islam…..one common denominator: An individual doesn’t mean shit. Mix a philosophy like that with Mark Twain’s description of base human instinct….bad news. Real bad news.

    Christianity checks these impulses. While the Spanish Conquistadors did horrible things in the New World with a Christian crusader mindset, there were also priests who were resisting and sometimes saving Indians. The Conquistadors were being typical human assholes. We see it throughout history and cultures. The priests fighting for humane treatment of Indians were being atypical.

    Christianity plants this atypical seed…..God given natural rights.

  138. Alfie, I don’t doubt you know people that had feet on the ground in that event. I’m certain of one in that photo from your previous admission. It is probably the most current and obvious example of a government staged drill. Look at the players. That is what I meant about honesty. The fact that you deny it was a setup says it all for me. I don’t think you are stupid.

  139. “The word was originally applied to supporters of the Jacobins in the French Revolution, who advocated repression and violence in pursuit of the principles of democracy and equality.” -Raji

    lol……Sorry Raji…we should have known you were using the word “terrorist” in the same fashion as Robespierre.

    Do you celebrate Bastille Day in the Raji household, too?t

    Sorry for being such a philistine. I should have asked…..”Raji, are using the world “terrorist” in the same context as Maximilien Robespierre did in his famous essay Terror and Virtue?”

    By the way…..radical terrorism is radical terrorism…so I don’t get your point about the French Revolution.

    Oh and yeah….and how outrageous we question quantifiers like “many”….or adjectives like “radical”.

    ¡Viva la Revolución!

    Cop out.

  140. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/radical

    Based on the definition of radical, I think we all should apply. Lord knows He was radical when He walked in man’s skin. Keep it real. The word has a special meaning to whatever your political bent tells you it should. I think it’s pretty rad. That means the same as far out.

    Terrorist has morphed to devil in our modern lingo. We view the word as evil incarnate. It keeps us from going deeper into the motivation that causes the action that defines that moniker. Crazy and conspiracy does much the same thing. All wars are deemed honorable if we are the ones fighting. We honor our soldiers that give their all as heroes but often the heroes of those considering themselves freedom fighters get labeled terrorist or extremist by the ones recording the events. It is a matter of perspective.

    Now every digital word is monitored, recorded, and the information disseminated censored. Whose interests are being served?

  141. “Christianity plants this atypical seed…..God given natural rights.”

    Very slick of God to co-opt this concept, but He didn’t give us any of it. It transcends gods. They are there, inherent in human nature – natural.

    The desire to be free to make our own choices – natural.
    The desire to raise our own children as we see fit – natural.
    The desire to keep the fruits of our own work – you get the pattern…

    Unfortunately, also natural is the desire to boss other humans around. Sometimes those people justify it via laws, sometimes via superstition (gods).

    But in the final analysis, where it really is, is in our own heads.

  142. Offered into the discussion without comment (because I don’t really think it needs any support)
    (Contains some scenes that some might find disturbing)

  143. Pfesser, you point to natural and mention desire. Desire infers choice, the one thing that separates us from the rest of known nature. In your thinking, Is that desire the result of a process of evolution or?

  144. @dr 166 “Christianity checks these impulses….”
    Does it really though? I think someone could look at our comment which has a lot of truth to it and say that it can swing both ways,that it is ultimately up to a cast of individuals as opposed to the masses at large. Sheep in front of a dictators podium or sheep in front of a pulpit still equals sheep.

  145. @ 167 although I see where this is a dead end I have to ask you to lay this out in algorithm fashion for me. I sincerely mean none of this in an insulting manner but given your Sandy Hook statements I kind of have to go this route.
    1)Boston MA and the Marathon and Boylston St actually real places? Y N?
    2) As they have for YEARS various agencies were yet again involved in a drill Y N .?
    3) two explosive devices detonated Y N ?
    4) EMS procedures in full effect triage mode seemingly helps some but not others…
    4a) a guy that had legs,is known to have had legs by friends,family and the entire staff of a COSTCO no longer has legs Y N
    We can go further if you like or just state you choose not too either way it needs to be put to bed.
    Also you need to move on the earlier challenge as it were.

  146. poolman – I don’t see any reason to suspect that animals don’t make choices or have desires, just like us. To my eye, the higher their development, the more we may assume they think like we do. It is entirely possible that some of the sea creatures are as natively intelligent as we are, but haven’t developed a knowledge base, so don’t seem as smart. (no ability to write or record for posterity – think about comparing a very primitive tribesman to a dolphin – I’m not sure who would come out on top. Ditto an elephant.)

    Take a look at this:

    “According to the Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia, “A theory has been proposed which states that behavioral capacity, a broad term indicating intelligence, is related not to the size of the brain but to the index of cephalization — the amount of brain in excess of that required for transmitting to and from the brain.” Another source (High North Alliance) states “neither absolute brain weight nor the relationship between brain weight and body size provide us with sensible criteria for comparing the intelligence of different species”. Therefore meaning, the size of the brain doesn’t necessarily determine the intelligence of that species. The table below shows this; because we know that humans are more intelligent than the other species on the chart, yet our brains are considerably smaller than most.

    Species Brain weight Body weight Brain weight
    (gram) (tonne) as % of body weight
    Man 1500 0,07 2,1
    Bottlenose dolphin 1600 0,17 0,94
    Dolphin 840 0,11 0,74
    Asian elephant 7500 5,0 0,15
    Killer whale 5620 6,0 0,094
    Cow 500 0,5 0,1
    Pilot whale 2670 3,5 0,076
    Sperm whale 7820 37,0 0,021
    Fin whale 6930 90,0 0,008
    Mouse 0,4 0,000,012 3,2″

  147. Shit. Sorry; I thought those columns would line up. The first column is brain weight. Compare man to the elephant.

  148. PF just in case you are curious given the other threads abortion related dialog between us I’m actually more with you on this one. Still we differ that I do indeed believe there is a higher force and for me it involves the Trinity but other than that people are people and they bring to the table what they are,what they learn,and what they want.

  149. @Rutherford…given the title of this post you perhaps should enter the thread or add to it in some other manner and bring forth something better than the twitter under 140 character shit that makes you look silly.
    Angelic Americans and evil Russians? Holy fuck man!
    Please share something more and restore my faith in you…throw me a bone here!
    Seriously you do know that Moscow is hardly the choir boys in this one???
    You tweet with haters you get called on it you Naperville commie you. 🙂

  150. re 176, sorry Alfie, I lost interest in paint by numbers at a young age. I do not know the boots on the ground facts, all I can do is assess the reporting and the visuals available. As with SH, there are many similarities with a vast amount of disinformation, misinformation, and numerous detours from protocol. I read people and understand agendas much clearer now than I could years ago. Call it crazy if you so desire.

  151. Well your dismissive opener aside:
    I do not know the boots on the ground facts,
    That MEANS YOU SHOULD PROBABLY SHUT THE FUCK UP THEN
    For what it’s worth I do indeed appreciate your honesty on the matter,thank you.

  152. Why should I shut up? I have every right to express my concerns. This event like all the others has universal implications that affect me and everyone else.

  153. OT, buts adds a little levity to my perspective argument. My pastor showed this clip in his message this weekend regarding relationships.

  154. Alfie – If we could sit down together and really have a conversation on the abortion issue, I think we could arrive at an understanding – not agree necessarily, but not be pissed about it either.

    As for Supreme Being stuff: I have yet to figure out why there is only one world – the world through my eyes. I cannot be anybody else or see through their eyes; there is only “me” and billions of animals that look like me, but they are all equivalent, and then there is me.

    I can’t express that very well, but that mystery has certainly led me to consider the possibility of a “cosmic consciousness” of some kind. Of course, I’ll never figure it out.

    ******************

    On another front, has anyone been following “graphene?” Jesus H. Christ. It is a single sheet of carbon arranged in hexagons, so strong that “an elephant balanced on a pencil could not punch through it.”

    In my area of interest, aviation, it represents the ultimate. Wings so strong and light that, combined with a turbine engine, you could make a light plane that would carry a thousand people at Mach 3, at 100,000 feet, with full sea-level pressurization. Cables as thick as a pencil that would lift a bridge. One-pound bicycles. Two hundred pound cars. Unbelievable. Sure would like to live another 75 years…

  155. PF you got me curious so I did a quick bit o’ clickin’ and damn there is like a whole emerging industry connected to it. People figuring out ways to make it,exploring past research that looked at it in some shape or form before and wondering why it didn’t keep going and the EU dedicating funds to it and on and on. It really shows you how much “stuff” is out there that we’re either not knowing or getting or…
    Reminds me of the story Tex left probably 2 years ago now about all the potential gas offshore of the Carolinas trillions cubic whatevers they measure the stuff in. Problem is if the drilling equipment ever leaked the Atlantic would die.

  156. @ pools I know giving our history as it were you take my 182 as a censorship kind of thing. Honest I mean it in the same way of what I put forth in the close of my #163. If you were coming off more like a question guy as opposed to a banner shrieking statement guy I’d get it but I’m not and I dare say out of the thread-residents here I actually read more of your stuff than the others.

  157. Although I know this needs no explanation, I am only observing the mayhem on FG and not participating beyond the seed I planted. So PF etal, who might have posed q’s to me there, they didn’t go unanswered by way of insult — simply that actively contributing to FG wastes my precious time.

    In fact, after I amuse myself with reading some more of the fallout I am going to unsubscribe from the thread. It has nearly blown up my mail box.

  158. “But, IMHO – and it is my opinion only – nobody else is lily-white, either. There is absolutely nothing other than the law in first-world countries to prevent the Christians from doing exactly what they have done before – intimidate, abuse – yes, even kill – those who disagree or challenge their authority. It’s just too tempting, and having the Absolute Word Of God spurring you on makes it all the more likely.”

    This just backs my assertion that atheists are an aggressive force that goes beyond non belief. You attack something you either have no understanding of or do understand and go out of your way to misrepresent it. If it isn’t being done, where do you get off saying it would be so if only we could? Where is your proof? What are we doing now that would suggest that the law is the only thing preventing us from world domination and executing those not like us, as Islam does now as a matter of practice? If your claim is the crusades, we are not the same people we were 1000 years ago, none of us are.

    I haven’t read most of the posts over the last couple of days so if you have provided evidence to back these assertions I would be happy to entertain them. If not your full of shit.

  159. Oh and BTW, I finally read the comment where someone who will go unnamed threatens to sue Tex. That comment was a curious mixture of silly and embarrassing. As Tex has pointed out here, if his tone were grounds for legal action he’d be broke and imprisoned ten times over by now.

    😆

  160. One more BTW … as I read through the FG thread I notice James contributing thoughtful stuff and getting slammed for it.

    This is what surprised me when I made my first sincere attempt to interact there a couple of years ago. Such anger. I naively thought this tone was limited to places like The Hostages but I’d venture to say no one on the Hostages would out anyone.

    It’s really a head scratcher for me.

  161. I’m sorry guys but damn — from FG.

    ” I haven’t seen the “Rutherford” blog, but I’m assuming it’s on the right-wing side of things. ”

    ROTFLMAO!!! Gato didn’t even have the intellectual curiosity to read my posts. WTF???

  162. From James on FG – “Another story from Twitchy: Eric Holder arrests self in DOJ sting. releases self after forgetting to read self his Miranda rights.”

    Damn that was funny!

  163. Since WP does not support signature files, how the hell does Auntie Jean get “Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom. Saalam. Peace.’ in the same order on every comment? Does she copy/paste from a txt file? At almost 52 I can barely get my first and last name in the right order. 🙂

  164. R – FG’s is hilarous. I just muck about over there because it helps me keep my wits sharp – and I can’t help poking sticks in bigots’ eyes. (Along that line, I guess I’m a “bitch” now. At least I’m in good company. LOL)

    “Gatodicima” is, roughly translated, an attempt at “topcat” in Italian. So far I’ve resisted referring to her as “upper pussy,” but my strength is failing me…I gotta tell you, R, conservative bigots are pretty rough, but liberal bigots are much worse, because they have that righteous indignation born of the belief that they are without question the good guys and on the high road. (Present company excepted – usually.)

    gato is the easiest to rile, and unfortunately on the edge of her dotage and can’t remember what she posted. For the longest time she kept accusing me of always referring to “panties.” Also a couple of other things. The problem is that I never said that, and called her on it; of course she couldn’t produce the quotes, so one of her buddies jumped in and said, “I remember it!” (Nailed her, too. Called them, in the finest Tex tradition, Lying Sacks of Shit.)

    My only problem is that there is nobody smart there, except maybe for an old gal named pennyabrams, who’s got some life experience. At least there’s R’s for some real conversation…sigh…

    I am waiting to hear if I got in the MBA program at a Big University. If so, I’ll be too busy to sharpen my beak on the cuttlebones at FG’s, so I’m having fun in the meantime.

    On to more important things: Anybody heard from Tex today? Hope that asshole didn’t go and git hisownself skewered with tornado debris or something…

  165. Noah wondered: “This just backs my assertion that atheists are an aggressive force that goes beyond non belief. You attack something you either have no understanding of or do understand and go out of your way to misrepresent it. If it isn’t being done, where do you get off saying it would be so if only we could? Where is your proof? What are we doing now that would suggest that the law is the only thing preventing us from world domination and executing those not like us, as Islam does now as a matter of practice?

    Noah, the examples are so numerous, they would take up the whole blog, so I’ll do a few at a time – as I get time. Is that OK? Bear with me; I’ll cut and paste as much as possible; it would take too much time to write it all down.

    “Army of God (AOG) is a Christian terrorist anti-abortion organization that sanctions the use of force to combat abortion in the United States. HBO produced a documentary on the Army of God entitled Soldiers in the Army of God.

    The earliest documented incidence of the Army of God being involved with anti-abortion activity occurred in 1982. Three men associated with the organization held Hector Zevallos, an abortion doctor, and his wife, Rosalee Jean, hostage. The hostages were later released unharmed.

    The “East Coast division” of the AOG claimed responsibility when three men, including Michael Bray, planted bombs at seven abortion clinics in Maryland, Virginia, and Washington D.C. in 1985.

    The AOG claimed responsibility for Eric Robert Rudolph’s 1997 nail bombing of abortion clinics in Atlanta and Birmingham as well as an Atlanta lesbian bar.

    Clayton Waagner, claiming to act on the part of the “Virginia Dare Chapter” of the AOG, mailed over 500 letters containing white powder to 280 abortion providers in 2001. The letters claimed that the powder was anthrax; though it was not identified as such, the tactic took advantage of the public’s fear of biological warfare after the recent real anthrax attacks.

    The group is also associated with a number of murders of abortion providers. Some of these murders claimed association with the AOG; in other cases, while the killer expressed no affiliation with the group, the AOG has lionized their acts and taken up their cause.” Wikipedia

    Give up, or want more?

  166. From PF’s take on Auntie Jean’s signoff on FG — OMFG make it stop … I haven’t laughed this hard in ages:

    “no mas, te. kaflooie, farfalonus, leggo my eggo”

  167. OK my FINAL comment on FG — tomorrow I will find time to engage in this damn blog’s discussion —

    The RL Blog invaders won the day. Why do I say so? Because Pennyabrams was prompted to set forth reasonable rules of debate and the level of conversation rose, making Auntie Jean, Lori and Gato look like wanna-be’s. As usual Tex gets the stir the pot award and James and PF get kudos for demanding some real discussion on “the porch”.

    Bravo gentlemen. I feel a bit vindicated from my travails of two years ago.

    Now let us return to our previously scheduled “right wing blog”. 😆

  168. No Alfie, today was not an example of my getting my crazy on in Twitter. This notion, suggested by Senator Jack Reed that Russians are acting in their own self interest in Syria but, by implication, we are not, is a load of bullshit. You disagree?

  169. Rutherford I am unaware of what statement by Reed you are speaking of. I do know read has been the sanity foil to Sen. McCains crazy ass no fly zone proposal and that Reed has indeed stated it would important to get Russia to see that it is in their best interest to come to the table and stop arming Assad.
    Although I find the USA very guilty of laziness and half assed actions concerning Syria over the last two decades +.
    I just wanted to work with you though and assure myself you were not buying into the notion that the Russians are acting even remotely noble in Syria. Just a quick primer you may or may not need/want:

    Russia wants/needs a foot in Syria for the naval base at Tartus.
    Russia and by that I mean Putin needs to keep the US and France (believe it or not) from gaining ground in the region.
    Russia wants $$$ and and some weapons showcasing ain’t gonna hurt.
    Russia has a long range view here and it may actually play well for the USA if we want to go that route. there is indeed a much larger game afoot here and grand dynamic that historians will someday look back upon and say “Gee the Americans really fucked themselves there”

    All that said and especially that I don’t think we (the USA) are playing Syria right the Russians are indeed playing the opposition for their own good which in fact represents something against our interests so yeah that makes them the baddies still.
    Romney was wrong saying the Russians are the # 1 threat to the USA,that honor goes to China,but Moscow is clearly in the top 5.

  170. “The desire to be free to make our own choices – natural.
    The desire to raise our own children as we see fit – natural.
    The desire to keep the fruits of our own work – you get the pattern…” Pfessor

    Actually, I don’t see the pattern. The notion of natural rights have been foreign throughout most of world history. Surely, something so natural would be more common place, no?

    1/4 the world is heavily influenced by Confucianism for the last thousand years. Hardly an example of this nature you speak about.

    Billions of people have bought into the Hindu caste system over time. Hardly again an example of this nature.

    Medieval Europe and its Fuedalistic hierarchy….once again hardly this nature you speak of.

    These notions have been historically non existent to even those on the lower rung of society. Even the pauper bought into the very yoke that enslaved him.

    Hell…. modern day Americans who live a life of generational welfare don’t care about basic freedoms.

    Through out all of human history, your natural rights suren’t don’t show up much in nature.

    They are unique to Christendom at around the 1700’s. And make sense only when you consider the influence of Christian theology on all of us, including you Pfessor.

    The notion that an individual is unique and born with inailiable rights is not the natural state of man. Its not even a natural desire of man. It took Christianity to make that happen for the reasons I’ve already discussed.

    As for pulpit and sheep…..I wish being a Christain meant being a sheep. Quite the opposite. You need the courage of a wolf. Why do think I’m so half assed about it. Lured by temptation, at times a follower. Christanity is not an opiate. It’s a fucking tough ass hang over with a splitting head ache.

    Man…..I hope Tex didn’t get nailed by the storms.

  171. Thanks for the concerns guys. Tulsa must be living right or have a pact with the devil. We’ve had tornadoes east, west, north, and south around the city and I have not had so much as pea sized hail fall on my house.

    I dropped a cool grand on getting my youngest daughter a secure place in Kansas City today, plus $75 for background check, plus $200.00 for a “freight” fee – whatever the hell that means. This kid’s education is killing me. Seventeen years of private education and now graduate school.

    The guy leasing the condo to us (owns it) was this Sikh, a heck of a nice guy, who is also a Doctor of Ophthalmology at the two medical schools by way of Harvard. Walked up with the turban, a Harvard t-shirt tucked in with a oversized shiny leather belt, business khaki pants, and sandals. 😆 So much for taste on a Sunday afternoon. Guy drew a better map of the major roads of the city than any map I ever bought and spent the better part of two hours giving us the grand tour of this highrise. I’m not sure I’ve ever met a Sikh I didn’t like.

    I’ve decided 500 miles is about my limit of driving without going into a coma.

    Today, I did 650. Sat on my ass for 11 hours – awful.

  172. Can anyone save me a trip to an atlas and figure out how far Tulsa is from OK City?

    105 miles. And twice this Spring, I’ve had paper and insulation from Shawnee and OKC falling in my yard, back to back days. Scary stuff…

    People forget about the F4 in Shawnee the day before Moore got hammered.

  173. So there have been some questions going around I wonder if anyone can answer…

    If Obama is against us force-feeding prisoners in Gitmo, why doesn’t he order the practice stopped?

    If the prisoners at Gitmo were transferred to a federal facility in the US, what is to stop them from launching another hunger strike?

    Of course, I don’t really expect these to be answered by anyone here. I don’t even expect Barack Obama to be able to answer them.

    Because he can’t…

  174. R, you and Maddow can go fuck yourselves…

    An overwhelming majority of British citizens want their country’s handgun ban repealed, according to the results of an on-line poll conducted by the Daily Telegraph, described Wednesday as the United Kingdom’s “most widely read broadsheet newspaper” by the Commentator.

    As this column was updated Thursday, more than 14,900 votes had been cast in the unscientific poll, and of those, 12,603 support a repeal of the 1997 gun ban, an 84.35 percent vote. It far out-distanced votes for several other measures that Britons would like to see introduced in the House of Commons, according to the newspaper.

    For anti-gunners on both sides of the Atlantic, it is a devastating rejection of the gun ban philosophy. The ban was enacted following the Dunblane school massacre. The Commentator noted, “While gun crime soared after the British ban in 1997, rates of gun violence have fallen, especially in British cities, following more spending by police forces into tackling gun crime. Police in England and Wales recorded 5,911 firearms offences in 2011/12, a reduction of 42 percent compared with nine years earlier, according to the Office for National Statistics.”

    But the Commentator also said this:

    “But statistics from the United States show that guns are used by citizens to defend themselves around eighty times more often than they are used to take a life. A recent study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy concluded that there is a negative correlation between gun ownership and violent crime in countries internationally, that is, “where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest.”

  175. DR: “1/4 the world is heavily influenced by Confucianism for the last thousand years. Hardly an example of this nature you speak about.
    Billions of people have bought into the Hindu caste system over time. Hardly again an example of this nature.
    Medieval Europe and its Fuedalistic hierarchy….once again hardly this nature you speak of.”

    All imposed by those in control. Ask those not-in-control if they liked it.

    Now ask Everybody about the three things I said, just off the top of my head. Find Anybody who doesn’t yearn for them. Ask him before any religion or propaganda claims his soul and all will tell you their inner beings want exactly the same things.

    Natural – no gods needed.

    I’ll need to read up on this a little. Who espoused that? Locke? Have to confess, I haven’t read much philosophy.

  176. PF re: Graphene
    Just this morning there was an article on grapheme in the French Tribune. I would not have been inclined to read the article if you hadn’t mentioned it.
    Interesting facts we learn on the Rutherford Lawson blog.

  177. Yeah, it looks like Hobbes, then Locke, then My Boy Tom Paine, who seemed to express it best:

    “It is a perversion of terms to say that a charter gives rights. It operates by a contrary effect — that of taking rights away. Rights are inherently in all the inhabitants; but charters, by annulling those rights, in the majority, leave the right, by exclusion, in the hands of a few. … They…consequently are instruments of injustice. The fact therefore must be that the individuals themselves, each in his own personal and sovereign right, entered into a contract with each other to produce a government: and this is the only mode in which governments have a right to arise, and the only principle on which they have a right to exist.”

    Yeah!

    Along those lines, it looks like Rand Paul is rolling down the taxiway toward running for Prez.

  178. Raji – I use Pages for book-editing and like it very well. Two criticisms:

    firstly, the PC stuff has to go. The next time I see it highlight “wife” or “husband” and say, “gender-specific expression. Consider using ‘spouse.'” — I’m going to shoot a hole through the screen. (What do you expect, though, from a California product? LOL)

    Secondly, it has a bizarre glitch when you save files. There is no “save as” command, and sometimes you have to “save a copy” to save it under a different name.

    At least Pages you can use right out of the box, but Word drives me crazy. I guess when you get used to it, it’s fine, but it is always doing things I don’t want, like guessing how I want a list to look and reformatting automatically. It handles tabs weirdly; I still don’t have the hang of that. I’m sure that if I did a little Word class, everything would be fine, but I hate having a hammer where I have to carry the hammer-manual with me when I want to drive a nail.

  179. Voter fraud? What voter fraud? R told us there’s nothing to see here…

    The former Ohio poll worker who admitted flat-out to voting twice for President Barack Obama in November was convicted Tuesday of illegal voting, the Cincinnati Enquirer reported.

    Melowese Richardson of Madisonville, Ohio was accused of eight counts of illegal voting in the 2008, 2011 and 2012 elections. She pleaded no contest to four counts in exchange for prosecutors dropping the remaining charges, the newspaper reported. A judge immediately convicted Richardson, who now faces up to six years in prison.

    Richardson had admitted to Cincinnati’s WCPO-TV in February that she voted twice, after documents showed she first submitted an absentee ballot and told an official she later voted at the polls as well.

  180. Let’s spike the football some more, maybe we can get him executed too….

    It was the Obama administration that sealed the fate of the Pakistani doctor jailed for helping nail Usama Bin Laden, by divulging key details after the fact and dooming any chance Shakil Afridi’s cover story could win his freedom, according to a confidential Pakistani report.

    When former Secretary of Defense and ex-CIA Director Leon Panetta publicly acknowledged Afridi’s role in the ruse which helped the CIA pinpoint Bin Laden’s presence in an Abbottabad compound, any chance that Pakistani authorities could help him get out of the country vanished, according to what some have called Pakistan’s version of the 9/11 Commission, a 357-page report from an independent body set up to probe the aftermath of the 2011 raid by Navy SEALs in which the Al Qaeda leader was killed.

    “The statement by the U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, who was the CIA Director when May 2 happened, confirming the role of Dr. Afridi in making the U.S. assassination mission a success, rendered much of what Afridi told the Commission very questionable if not outright lies,” states the report, which has not been released, but which FoxNews.com has viewed.

    Indeed, Panetta and others in the Obama administration were sharply criticized domestically for discussing the raid and efforts involving Afridi to obtain DNA from the compound’s occupants by posing as a medical team offering vaccinations. Nearly five months before Afridi’s sentencing, while the doctor was being held and interrogated by Pakistan’s shadowy intelligence agency , Panetta spoke on record in an interview to CBS “60 Minutes” confirming Afridi’s role in late January 2012. The statements came after Afridi had testified to the commission, and sharply contradicted his story.

    “This was an individual, in fact that helped provide intelligence, that was very helpful in regards to this operation and he was not in any way treasonous towards Pakistan,” Panetta told the program in January, 2012, in the first acknowledgement of Afridi’s role.

    That prompted the Pakistani commission to conclude in its report that “Dr. Afridi had been cultivated by the CIA and ultimately used in its project to assassinate Usama Bin Laden.”

  181. There is more evidence of voter fraud in Florida.Hot Air tells us that Democrats attempted to create hundreds of fraudulent absentee ballots. The votes were rejected, but the attempt is documented.

    I have a comment about 218, but decorum forces me to keep quiet. That was a good one.,

  182. Good morning to you too G.” – R

    I’m finding my patience and civility with you is running thin. You completely refuse to respond, in any manner of substance, to comments directed at you, and just fluff along on the superficial.

    Where’s the substance?

  183. “It was the Obama administration that sealed the fate of the Pakistani doctor jailed for helping nail Usama Bin Laden, by divulging key details after the fact and dooming any chance Shakil Afridi’s cover story could win his freedom, according to a confidential Pakistani report.”

    I’m sure Thor is utterly pissed about this.

  184. If I may I’d like to chime in on the Mac chat.
    I like Pages far and away above Word. It does require a tour as it were though. Like PF noted its proofreader function can get aggressive but you can shut it off. As for save function my only problem is waiting for the dialog box and making an actual selection otherwise it does get a little weird. I find it tries to save everything as .pages in the Cloud if you don’t pay attention. It is kind of a pain that you have to close something to name it. I like that they’ve separated the family,I have pages but not numbers or keynote.
    On a mac note I went to the Apple Store yesterday ‘cuz I was having an issue with the trackpad. I laughed at how the first guy could figure out something was definitely wrong but still needed to get the “genius” involved. That guy was like king of the store walking around with a green iPad. I told the spouse it was like he was Moses carrying the stones. People in awe. All in all though they did a great thing for me. Apparently not a warranty issue but Moses told the lower Apple to issue a retail swap. Pompous in a way that he didn’t include me in the conversation at all and I was standing right there but then again I got a brand new trackpad without dishing out the $69.
    I’ve only had two problems with my Mac’s and both times the support was awesome.

  185. Yeah R. What gives? All this going on and your spending your time at Fat Grannies and offering their level of commentary here?

    Come on man. Is it that you got nothing but love for Obongo and can’t bring yourself to comment on the latest proof of his total disregard of fundamental American liberties?

  186. Thanks PF and Alfie for the information. I hope there is a tutorial for Pages but any tips help. My daughters got smart and purchased Apple Care for me. I think they are telling me something 🙂
    Yes, the support is awesome.

  187. Why you pay too much for Apple gear:

    Two years ago I bought an iPad and a non-Apple cover for it. There were tabs along three sides of the cover so you could slide the iPad in from one end. In the dark, I picked the whole thing up out of my car by the wrong end, the iPad slid out of the open end and onto the pavement, breaking the glass. (Interestingly, it still worked.)

    I went to the Apple store and told them what had happened and that I needed to buy another iPad and an Apple protective cover for it. In ten minutes, they had transferred all my data and came back with a brand-new iPad, with cover.

    “What do I owe you?”

    “Nothing.”

    “Nothing? I told you what happened – it was entirely my fault.”

    “Well, we talked about it and decided it was an accident, not abuse. Happy Thursday.”

    And that’s why you pay too much for Apple gear.

  188. http://oversight.house.gov/release/issa-talks-irs-targeting-investigation-previews-thursdays-irs-conference-spending-hearing-on-cnn-sotu

    WASHINGTON (June 2, 2013) – House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) revealed new testimony from IRS employees in Cincinnati involved with the IRS’s political targeting today on CNN’s State of the Union.

    The Committee released excerpts from bipartisan transcribed interviews between Committee Investigators and Cincinnati IRS employees. In these interviews Cincinnati IRS employees reject the White House’s claim that the targeting was merely work of “rogue” agents and say targeting of conservative political groups came from Washington, D.C.

    “As late as last week, the administration was still trying to say the [IRS targeting scandal] was from a few rogue agents in Cincinnati, when in fact the indication is that they were directly being ordered from Washington,” Issa told CNN.

    Below is an excerpt from the transcribed interviews between Committee Investigators and Cincinnati IRS employees:

    One Cincinnati IRS employee interviewed by the Oversight Committee rejects the White House assertion and points to Washington as being responsible for targeting effort:

    Q: In early 2010, was there a time when you became aware of applications that referenced Tea Party or other conservative groups?
    A: In March of 2010, I was made aware.

    ******
    Q: Okay. Now, was there a point around this time period when [your supervisor] asked you to do a search for similar applications?
    A: Yes.
    Q: To the best of your recollection, when was this request made?
    A: Sometime in early March of 2010.

    ******
    Q: Did [your supervisor] give you any indication of the need for the search, any more context?
    A: He told me that Washington, D.C., wanted some cases.

    ******

    Q: So as of April 2010, these 40 cases were held at that moment in your group; is that right?
    A: Some were.
    Q: How many were held there?
    A: Less than 40. Some went to Washington, D.C.
    Q: Okay. How many went to Washington, D.C.?
    A: I sent seven.

    ******

    Q: So you prepared seven hard copy versions of the applications to go to Washington, D.C.?
    A: Correct.

    ******

    Q: Did he give you any sort of indication as to why he requested you to do that?

    […]
    A: He said Washington, D.C. wanted seven. Because at one point I believe I heard they were thinking 10, but it came down to seven. I said okay, seven.
    Q: How did you decide which seven were sent?
    A: Just the first seven.
    Q: The first seven to come into the system?
    A: Yes.

    *****

    Q: Did anyone else ever make a request that you send any cases to Washington?
    A: [Different IRS employee] wanted to have two cases that she couldn’t ‑‑ Washington, D.C. wanted them, but she couldn’t find the paper. So she requested me, through an email, to find these cases for her and to send them to Washington, D.C.
    Q: When was this, what time frame?
    A: I don’t recall the time frame, maybe May of 2010.

    ******

    Q: But just to be clear, she told you the specific names of these applicants.
    A: Yes.
    Q: And she told you that Washington, D.C. had requested these two specific applications be sent to D.C.
    A: Yes, or parts of them.

    ******

    Q: Okay. So she asked you to send particular parts of these applications.
    A: Mm‑hmm.
    Q: And that was unusual. Did you say that?
    A: Yes.
    Q: And she indicated that Washington had requested these specific parts of these specific applications; is that right?
    A: Correct.

    ******

    Q: So what do you think about this, that allegation has been made, I think as you have seen in lots of press reports, that there were two rogue agents in Cincinnati that are sort of responsible for all of the issues that we have been talking about today. What do you think about those allegations?
    […]
    A: It’s impossible. As an agent we are controlled by many, many people. We have to submit many, many reports. So the chance of two agents being rogue and doing things like that could never happen.

    ******

  189. 220. Rutherford can’t defend because substance is in short supply.

    Evan Thomas called Obama dishonest and hypocrtical on PBS “Inside Washington.” He gave Obama god – like qualities a year ago.

    The fate of the Pakistani doctor who helped us is another black mark against this administration.

    How can Rutherford directly defend Obama?

  190. G I’m really starting to question your reasoning ability. Only a fool would say there is zero voter fraud. EVERY system has fraud. The issue is what is the extent. Is it sufficient to throw an election?

    There was GOP voter fraud too, not including the organized attempt to keep Dems from the polls.

    C’mon man stay away from the silly stuff and have some fun with Holder and the IRS. There’s loads for you to chew on there.

  191. Those same loads could be chewed on by you, R. But, after swallowing Berry’s load for 5 years I’m guessing it’s just all too much . Better off writing fluff and hiding.

    Pretty funny how you no longer give a shit.

  192. Ok so I read the testimony. Now lets see the testimony of the supervisor so we’re not just dealing with hearsay.

    Candy Crowley asked Issa why we only get to see cherry picked excerpts of these “investigations”. After spouting some nonsense about the entire testimony “eventually” being released he went on to call Jay Carney a “paid liar”. Stay classy Darrell.

    The fact is that 501c4’s that were really not for “social welfare” deserved to get busted. It’s the profiling that is troublesome. But do I feel bad for Tea Party groups running a scam? Not one damn bit.

  193. “Come on man. Is it that you got nothing but love for Obongo and can’t bring yourself to comment on the latest proof of his total disregard of fundamental American liberties?”

    Well if you’re waiting for me to go hyperbolic like you just did, please don’t hold your breath.

    Just as Bush canned Rumsfeld in the second term, Obama will probably face facts and let his boy Holder go.

    There was a remark by Joe Scarborough this morning that just like Lyndon Johnson lost middle America when he lost Cronkite, so Obama has lost a lot if his supporters when he lost the NY Times.

    Why don’t you direct some of your vitriol at the media and the GOP who failed to sniff out the AP scandal and the IRS scandal until after the election? Everything being tossed at Obama now is first term shit. Where were your oversight buddies when it really mattered?

  194. “I’m finding my patience and civility with you is running thin.”

    LOL I don’t know how I missed that one. Your civility just started running thin?

    What do you want? You say the sky is blue and you WANT me to say the sky is green? Things are fairly fucked up right now. Do I think it’s the end of democracy as we know it? No. I’m not gonna be a drama queen about it. Am I very disappointed with Obama’s lack of leadership? Damn straight I am.

    As I remarked to Sandi this afternoon Holder did the impossible. He’s got liberals defending Fox News.

  195. Hyperbole? Vitriol? Are fucking kidding me? Nothing vitriolic or hyperbolic at all. I am just asking you to participate in the discussions on your own blog. You’ll notice, I ain’t the only wondering why there’s been nothing of substance from you on any topic — especially the scandals that have occupied the news.

    Like most of MSNBC’s viewers, it’s seems apparent that you have grown tired of politics because the news about Obama has been mostly negative.

    Hell, the DNC (now parroted by your propaganda station) has started a new diversionary, fight-back meme about GOP “overreach.” How about carrying the message or commenting on that?

    “Why don’t you direct some of your vitriol at the media and the GOP who failed to sniff out the AP scandal and the IRS scandal until after the election?”

    WTF???

    Yeah, I am pissed Obama had such control over the media and his own bureaucratic lapdogs. I’ll blame the GOP and media.

    Be sure not to miss the nice discussion among the Fat Grannies regulars about gardening . . 🙄

  196. And they’re not really “defending FOX News.” They’re attacking the astonishingly illegitimate abuse of federal authority even though directed at an outlet the left disdains. Don’t you get that?

    This is some interesting shit R. You should try thinking about it even though it doesn’t do anything to validate your positions on. . . well. . . anything.

  197. “he went on to call Jay Carney a “paid liar””

    Isn’t that what he is?

    He gets paid to put forth the WH position. If the WH is putting forth lies, then……

  198. “Just as Bush canned Rumsfeld in the second term, Obama will probably face facts and let his boy Holder go.”

    I predict that he won’t.

    Eric Holder has caused trouble for Obama before. More than once before. More than twice before. And Obama keeps getting out of it.

    I suspect Obama believes that will continue. And why wouldn’t he think that? What with the press as an ally, an all.

    He treats them like shit and they continue to run cover for him. Then again…maybe its because they’ve seen what happens when you don’t…

  199. “Why don’t you direct some of your vitriol at the media and the GOP who failed to sniff out the AP scandal and the IRS scandal until after the election? Everything being tossed at Obama now is first term shit. Where were your oversight buddies when it really mattered?”

    When all else fails…blame the victim….

  200. “And they’re not really “defending FOX News.” They’re attacking the astonishingly illegitimate abuse of federal authority even though directed at an outlet the left disdains. Don’t you get that?”

    No shit Sherlock. “Defending Fox” was humor. Sometimes you can be one literal humorless mofo.

    Eat a friggin burger–smoke a good cigar–drink some brandy. Chill the fuck out.

  201. Huck here’s the problem: if you want people to respect you as a non-partisan investigator searching for truth you don’t throw verbal hand grenades.

    Of course Carney like every Press Secretary before him spouts the company line. One of Bush’s Press Secs was so fed up he quit and talked trash about the admin (don’t remember his name at the moment). But Issa has to at least fake it that he’s not operating from animosity. On that score: major fail.

  202. “But Issa has to at least fake it that he’s not operating from animosity. On that score: major fail.”

    Then I guess he has just lowered himself to the level of the entire Obama administration, hasn’t he?

  203. The President of the United States of America led the charge against a news organization by publicly marginalizing it, but the head of the House Oversight Committee is a fucking asshole because he isn’t showing impartiality.

  204. “Why don’t you direct some of your vitriol at the media and the GOP who failed to sniff out the AP scandal and the IRS scandal until after the election?”” -R

    Holy Shit. Does the drooling cluck actually type this shit with a straight face?

    What a fascinating document the totality of this blog is. Watch the naive cluck Moma’s boy slowly transform from a moaning sycophant to a callous, boring fuck. Fascinating.

    He’s not going to get all dramatic, he says…..same guy who blamed the Tea Party for everything ranging from being political operatives to lynchings. Same guy who probably wrote 4 different blogs on Sara Palin’s website graphic.

    I’ll give Rutherford one thing. Nobody has ever done a better job of teaching me what a true liberal really is.

    It’s all right here, folks. And will be forever. Rutherford was never into politics. He was into idol worship. No more idol. Now, no more Rutherford.

    This blog is doomed.

  205. It’s hilarious that Rutherford is telling us to direct our vitriol at the media for covering up for Obama during his first term and failing to sniff out his scandals.

    As if we hadn’t been doing that for the ENTIRE first term.

    Equally hilarious is the blame he gives the GOP for not sniffing out the IRS attacks against the Tea Party.

    Remember when Rutherford was telling us that these radicals at the fringe of the party were actually the party leaders? By that logic, we are now expected to believe that the Tea Party sat back and ignored attacks against it….because they didn’t like Mitt Romney….and wanted to keep blaming Obama for America’s problems…because they are all racists.

    (I might have added some of that, myself)

  206. I’m with you, Huck. I don’t think Obama will can Holder either. There may come a time Holder leaves of his own accord, but there’s little hope Obama would do the right thing.

    Holder has been covering and lying for Obama for so long, from the AP News to the New Black Panthers, Obama isn’t going to crap in his own hat.

    I will say this. If a whole bunch of people don’t go down for these scandals which are clearly thuggish and illegal, and I’m not talking about the fall guys but the big shots going down, then Republicans should begin to ignore the rule of law and do whatever it takes to win. And I do mean anything.

    And when they win, they should fire everyone registered Dimocrat from every branch of the federal government, clean house, and use every means at their disposal to punish the enemy – that would be Dimocrats. The IRS, the EPA, HUD, Homeland Security. Doesn’t matter. Vote early and vote often.

    And not invite one facet of the media to any media day. Strictly FOX News outlets and AM radio. Spit in the fact of every Dimocratic lackey. Everyone of them and treat them all like rabid dogs.

    The first people audited should be every sitting Dimocratic Senator and anybody working for MSNBC. If they refuse, arrest them.

    I’ve had enough with the double standard and the lying.

  207. “I will say this. If a whole bunch of people don’t go down for these scandals which are clearly thuggish and illegal, and I’m not talking about the fall guys but the big shots going down, then Republicans should begin to ignore the rule of law and do whatever it takes to win. And I do mean anything.”

    This is what we have been trying to convey to Rutherford, et al.

    These scandals are setting a bad precedent. And democrats won’t maintain power forever. I know Rutherford doesn’t believe that, but he also believed the GOP was finished in 2009, and they have taken control of 1/3 of the federal government since then.

    These illegal actions will suddenly matter when a republican administration is doing them.

  208. PF
    First I have heard of the AoG, as you listed one organization without its number of members I will need to do that research for you. Please continue on as I can have 3 people from different areas form 3 chapters and make myself sound a lot bigger than what I am.

    I am glad we are at least not in contention of the overt hostility part of my statement.

  209. “Be sure not to miss the nice discussion among the Fat Grannies regulars about gardening . . ”

    It’s an attempt to re-capture the conversation from those Evil Conservatives. Don’t ask me how I know…(chortle, chortle)

    Didn’t work. It’s hard to talk about Mother Earth when you’ve never had dirt under your fingernails in your life. LOL.

  210. Noah noted: “I am glad we are at least not in contention of the overt hostility part of my statement.”

    I think my Boy Tom expressed my feelings the best: ‘I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man.’

    To the degree that religion – or socialism, or anything else – attempts to exercise that tyranny, I am hostile. To the extent it does NOT, I am really agnostic (if you will excuse the word) about religion. I have a lot more important things to do than worry about my neighbor’s beliefs. Believe what you want. To quote Tom again…it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

    I’m partial to faeries, myself. My granddaughter and I have seen ’em.

  211. Noah – for you – Christian Terrorists, continued: Ku Klux Klan

    “Beginning after the Civil War, members of the Protestant-led Ku Klux Klan organization began engaging in arson, beatings, cross burning, destruction of property, lynching, murder, rape, tar-and-feathering, and whipping against African Americans, Jews, Catholics, and other social or ethnic minorities.

    They were explicitly Christian terrorist in ideology, basing their beliefs on a “religious foundation” in Christianity. The goals of the KKK included, from an early time on, an intent to “reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible,” and believe that “Jesus was the first Klansman.” Their cross-burnings were conducted not only to intimidate targets, but to demonstrate their respect and reverence for Jesus Christ, and the lighting ritual was steeped in Christian symbolism, including the saying of prayers and singing of Christian hymns. Many modern Klan organizations, such as the Knights Party, USA, continue to focus on the Christian supremacist message, asserting that there is a “war” on to destroy “western Christian civilization.”” Wikipedia

    And, also for your viewing pleasure, here is the header from KKK.com:

    “America, Our Nation is Under Judgement from God!

    There is a race war against whites. But our people – my white brothers and sisters – will stay committed to a non-violent resolution. That resolution must consist of solidarity in white communities around the world. The hatred for our children and their future is growing and is being fueled every single day. Stay firm in your convictions. Keep loving your heritage and keep witnessing to others that there is a better way than a war torn, violent, wicked, socialist, new world order. That way is the Christian way – law and order – love of family – love of nation. These are the principles of western Christian civilization. There is a war to destroy these things. Pray that our people see the error of their ways and regain a sense of loyalty. Repent America! Be faithful my fellow believers. ”

    National Director of The Knights, Pastor Thomas Robb

    (As for the nonsense that some of these organizations comprised just a few nutcases, at its peak the KKK had around six million members.)

    More later…

  212. Here’s more –

    Reckon those ol’ boys hanging from the trees were terrorized – just a little – before they lost consciousness? How about that one getting burned up on a pile of firewood?

    By the way, when they march in formation as a giant flying cross, what does that mean?

    I’m sorry, R – I’ll back off. I think the point is made. No sense offending everybody.

  213. Pfesser, the KKK a Christian terrorist organization? Well, they do burn crosses and did kill blacks and about a thousand whites in the process.

    But apparently you would have been a staunch supporter of the KKK, as your predecessor Margaret Sanger and Founder of Planned Parenthood fame, was guest speaker of the Klan. In fact, the NAACP and MLK signed off on Margaret Sanger’s Negro Project. So apparently, they too are terrorist organizations.

    However, In 1960 Mississippi Democratic Gov. Hugh
    White had requested Christian evangelist Billy Graham segregate
    his crusades, something Graham refused to do. South
    Carolina Democratic Gov. George Timmerman learned Billy Graham
    had invited Black Americans to a Reformation Rally at the
    state Capitol, he promptly denied use of the facilities to Graham.

    What would be an interesting exercise in math would be to see who killed more blacks in their history. KKK or Planned Parenthood? So I looked it up.

    In their 80 year history, a history tied specifically to the Dimocratic Party, it’s estimated the KKK killed about 2,000 blacks. But on a good day, the KKK can terminate 500 black pregnancies across this nation – all legally, of course. 😐

    Now, there has been no doubt that throughout history, the symbols of Christianity have been co-opted for some very evil means. However, at the same time, there were also masses of large and outspoken Christian groups that have protested against these fringe elements – Billy Graham being only one Christian religious leader of thousands who marginalized the Klan.

    So where are these moderate Muslims similar to Billy Graham that I keep hearing about?

    http://www.examiner.com/article/abortion-destroying-black-population-on-bigger-par-than-slavery

  214. Yeah……I’d say the Klan co-opted Christanity. Until Christanity knocked them back on their ass, like Tex said.

    But fair enough.

    Detroit was the largest Klan city in America (I’m talking second go around for the KKK). People always assume it was the South. It was a Midwest thing…particularly places with manufacturing and racial tensions over labor. At one point 40,000 Klansmen lived in Detroit alone!

    And it was called out most vehmently by the local Detroit Protestant churches. This is important because it shows institutions that share the most commonality with the Klan (anti-prohibition,not so cool about Catholics etc.). WASPs. Exactly the kind of resistnece that is missing in Islam. In 6 years, from 1930 tp 1936, membership went from 6 million to 30 thousand. I argue if it was truly religious and not so just superficially, the movement could never be decimated so quickly.

  215. Some other KKK history that I remember concerns the Carpetbaggers.

    Northerners, often Radical Republicans moved south for revenge and profit. They helped give blacks legislative majorities in several states. Most black people fresh from slavery were not equipped for the elective jobs they held, and they made a mess of it.

    For example, I believe the South Carolina legislature voted money to pay a member’s gambling debts. Southerners who had just lost The War of Northern Aggression were incensed. Organizations like the KKK formed to intimidate blacks who voted or were politically active.

    Their purpose was to fight the work of northern Carpet Baggers and to regain their political power. Their roots were southern Democratic. and they used Christianity as a foil to justify recreating the natural order.

    Thus, the KKK is not a good example of Christian extremism..

  216. I agree with dead rabbit. Even Iowa had a few KKK members.

    Internal discent and lawsuits also decimated their ranks.

    Eugenics was a popular concept when Planned Parenthood was founded. The Nazis were also believers in a master race, as we know.

  217. Lol…that cracked me up, Tex.

    Well boys, ladies and transgendered dandy friends like Thor, I’m back in the hospital with my boy. He didn’t respond well to treatment. His platelets were down around 17,000.

    The cancer center for children is ground zero in the battle ground of faith. You either walk out of here vanquished or emboldened in faith.

    And my damn boy is insistent about being a social butterfly here. Trips to the play room are fun for him, rips my heart out. I just saw a lad in so much misery. A look of death in him.

    Oh the pain on this Earth……

  218. Tex et al: all very nice; all irrelevant.

    Yes, others have done bad things. Two wrongs don’t make a right, nor, contrary to Tony Hendra, do three. That’s a red herring, and not the question.

    The question, once again, posed by Noah was: “…atheists are an aggressive force that goes beyond non belief. You attack something you either have no understanding of or do understand and go out of your way to misrepresent it. If it isn’t being done, where do you get off saying it would be so if only we could? Where is your proof?”

    The proof was pretty easy to find. WHEN they could, they DID. Is there any reason to think that human nature has changed since those folks were hanging black people from trees? I doubt it.

  219. In 2008 there was a total of 6,000 KKK members in the entire United States. Even more pathetically, they are splintered in numerous and often times competing factions. Many of them are no longer Christain, adopting faux paganism that some on this very blog like to partake in due to the naughty irony and festive bonfires around the solstice. To put it in perspective, there are 13,000 Crips in LA alone.

    The Klan are a non factor and a lame ass example of the “many Christain terrorists” in America.

  220. Yes, please back off because now you’re being offensive. 😆

    The KKK is a religious group started by ministers of religion in the bible belt. Hellooo! The bible belt.

    Uncle!

  221. Well, I would call it hardly irrelevant when you made and used as example Christian “terrorists” organizations like the KKK as some moral equivalency in defense to what started this entire conversation of Raji using the term ‘radical Christianity.’

    All I was doing was making the point back to the one religion in America today that can actually claim radicals in their midst in America that have killed people in large numbers, Islam, and pointed out that it was basically Christians that put a stop to their religion being co-opted by murderers using religion as cover.

    I provided perhaps Christianity’s most famous 20th century leader as example of those calling the Klan a bunch of murderers and definitely not Christian – diametrically opposed to Christ. I could have named a hundred other Church leaders who did the same in the 40s, 50s and 60s.

    Which gets me back to my original point. Why can’t Islam do the same? And where are these radical Christians of America today that Raji spoke?

    Who? Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell?

  222. Turbo-praying for your family, dead rabbit.

    If you’ve said it I have forgotten – what is your boy’s name if I may ask?

  223. Actually rabbit never mind the question about sonny boy’s name. I assume Tex knows and that’s good enough for me.

  224. “Good news of a sort! 😀 Well, depending on which generation you fall under.”

    I love you man; you’re such an idiot. YOU AND I are baby boomers born just at the end of that era. So what are you clucking about? Sorry to disappoint but we’re not part of the so called “greatest generation”.

  225. I love you man; you’re such an idiot. YOU AND I are baby boomers born just at the end of that era. So what are you clucking about? Sorry to disappoint but we’re not part of the so called “greatest generation”.

    Edith Dingbat Lawson. I know we’re the Baby Boomers, you dolt!

    Have you not heard Brother Rabbit go off on how rotten OUR generation is? I was giving Rabbit the good news that the “generation” that has raped and pillaged the countryside is apparently none too happy for its efforts. Now, it has to finally has to face up to that the lie of tune in, turn on and drop out.

    And may I add for the record, nobody has gotten screwed more by the ‘Worst Generation’ than those of us at the back of the generation like Edith R. Lawson – a generation that spans nineteen years that deserves to be split in two. Hell, Rutherford and I graduated in an employment situation worse than it is now. I graduated Phi Beta Kappa and they were making me take basic math tests at Xerox to check my ‘competency’ to get an interview. True story. 😡

    My worst enemies and those I disdain most (like Graychin :twisted:) are the front end of our ‘Worst Generation’ and the very ones that screwed Rutherford and I over our entire working careers, bumped our ages in drawing Social Security, will clean out Medicare before we ever get there.

    Think Bill and Hillary Rotten Clinton, turds by another name.

  226. Speaking of the Xerox test. We get “invited” to their facility for one position.

    Many of the people in there are Marketing, Management or some other major. Hell, I didn’t know this was a sales job. The title said ‘engineer.’

    Anyway, the math tests consists of 20 questions, and it seems like we had ten minutes to finish it. I’ll never forget this drop dead gorgeous blond walks in to administer the test and says, “Now, you probably won’t finish this, but finish as many as you can {perky grin, perky titties, bubbly}.” I take it she was a Human Resource babe.

    The guy sitting besides me was a petroleum or chemical engineer, I can’t remember, and they hand us the test. I drop my pencil in about 2 minutes and he does the same. The most “difficult” question on the exam was the cube root of 64 – no, I’m not shitting.

    She says, “You need at least try and finish…” Simultaneously, we both answer “I did.” 😆

    The engineer is so offended, he doesn’t even wait until the end of the ten minutes. He walks out. I at least had the good graces to listen to Perky’s speech and still didn’t get offered a job.

    I should have known right then and there I had been sold a huge bill of goods about college.

  227. “I’m sure Thor is utterly pissed about this.” – Huck

    Yes. If this is true, I’m not happy about it. I feel bad for the Dr. and screwing the people trying to help us certainly will not aid the struggle in the future.
    But forgive me if I’m a bit doubtful, given the next passage.

    “Afridi told the Commission very questionable if not outright lies,” states the report, which has not been released, but which FoxNews.com has viewed.”

  228. Keep your eyes on Turkey, folks.

    The military isn’t going to let this go on forever. If they come out, it won’t be against the protesters.

    The longer this goes on, the higher the chances of military involvement. And now that the protesters are finally getting the international media attention they have been seeking (and thus far lacking), they will be emboldened to continue. The only thing likely to stop them will be stronger reactions from the gov., which will then (possibly) draw out the army.

    A couple days ago I told my son this wasn’t going to amount to much. I am not so sure of that assessment anymore.

  229. Rabbit, sorry to hear about your son. I will lift my skirt and bend a very confused knee for him. 🙂 In all seriousness, I will pray for your son and family. Hope they can give you some answers soon.

  230. R, I’m no fan of Issa, but haven’t he and the right been arguing all along that the White House has been stalling precisely in order to get past the election?

    Watergate happened in the run up to the ’72 election. It didn’t come to a full head until the summer of ’74, and it would have gone on longer if Nixon hadn’t resigned. This is going to go on and on and on.

    James, did you ever meet any of the three storm chasers killed the other day? Sad and a huge loss to the science. Apparently these guys were the real deal. Their data collection helped greatly advance prediction of these killer storm cells.

  231. “Why don’t you direct some of your vitriol at the media and the GOP who failed to sniff out the AP scandal and the IRS scandal until after the election?”

    Might this suffice as a good reason why, Rutherford?

    “In October 2010, the San Fernando Valley Patriots, a not-for-profit corporation in California, applied with the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) for 501(c) 4 status as a tax-exemptsocial welfare organization. We were then and remain a “tea party” group affiliated with the national Tea Party Patriots.

    We heard nothing until February 2012 when I received a packet from the IRS Exempt Organizations Office in Cincinnati, OH, which included a questionnaire with 35 items divided into 80 subpoints of inquiry.

    A cover letter indicated we had 20 days to comply without penalty including “penalties of perjury” for failure to answer all questions with facts that are “true, correct, and complete.”

  232. Thor, you miss R’s point. You see, the only thing that ever mattered to R was winning an election. Victory! Validation! He supposes we are the same and therefore should be mad at the GOP that Obama wasn’t exposed soon enough.

    In other words, Obama and R “got away” with winning an election and therefore R can be unconcerned because that’s all that matters. All that follows is irrelevant. Pretty twisted, huh?

  233. Remember way back when Rutherford used to tell us that we need to have thorough, conclusive investigations of things and it doesn’t matter how long they take or if they extend beyond the next election?

    Good times….

  234. Yes, I’m sure you were all ears. 😉 Did you get her number? 🙂

    Perky had this gigantic rock on her hand. I noticed that much.

    To this day, 30+ years later, I’m still offended I was asked to do that. Asking engineers and the sort that had taken calculus and a couple of other 3000 math classes to then engage in math competency tests was a little too much for my ego. Mr. Phi Beta Kappa (woo hoo – another in a list of crocks of shit proffered by academia for no purpose) thought he was pretty hot stuff. I soon learned thereafter I wasn’t quite as sizzling as I thought walking off stage. 😡

    Didn’t piss me off as much as the Chem E. – I can tell you that.

    I actually ran into Perky some years later, though she wouldn’t know me from Adam. I’m afraid somewhere, the magic wore off and I don’t recall a big rock on her hand either. Now that you mention it, I don’t recall the perk either. Guess by that time, I had moved on to a new phase of worthless.

    I guess another younger Platinum had come down the pike. Justice grinds slowly…but it does grind.

  235. Huck, you forget that the Obama outfits were green-lighted for approval — regardless of how shady.

    I now hear that the replaced IRS commissioner was meeting with Stephanie Cutter at the WH. Yeah, I’m sure Obama’s campaign manager was involved in the Easter Egg Hunt too.

  236. No thor, I never met the storm chasers, though I might have watched him speak at a weather seminar.I also read an article he wrote about lightning, Yes, they were the real deal,.

    If he is the one I remember, I commented after his talk that I thought tornadoes sound more like Niagra Falls than trains.

    Another two storm chasers described how they pursued a tornado to their east. They didn’t realize another was hidden in rain slightly west of the highway. Another 100 feet too slow might have killed them. The distaff member of the team said the video was so frightening she hadn’t shown it to her parents.

    Some New Zealander storm chasers stopped to ask directions, in Oklahoma, and they not a tornado, became the main news story.

    We’re thinking of you dead rabbit.

  237. Thanks everybody. He is still diagnosed with acute ITP. The cancer ward for children might be one of the few places you actually thank God for your son having a blood disease.

    The doctors haven’t even pulled out the big guns yet. Many things in their tool kit to try out. They are very confident.

    That being said…..His platelets are being devoured and we don’t know why and we so far haven’t been able to see much improvement.

    Don’t pray for my family. Pray for the kid next door here.

  238. “Don’t pray for my family. Pray for the kid next door here.”

    You’re good man, DR. I learned from an extended hospital stay at an early age, surrounded by many, many young guys in much worse shape than myself) that self-pity usually derives from lack of perspective. Looks like you got a dose too.

    In any event, I understand God places no limits on the number of prayers.

  239. DR – ITP is considerably out of my area of expertise (can’t X-ray blood cells). Have they told you the next likely maneuver? Are we looking at more transfusions, wait-and-see, blood-boosting agents, what?

    I’m not a prayin’ man, but all best.

  240. I guess the tornado that killed the Storm Chasers last week has been upgraded to an EF5 too. The thing was 2.6 miles wide! Believe that is the second most powerful tornado on record, second only to the ’99 tornado that hit Moore with wind speeds of 300+ mph.

    This one clocked in at 295mph! That is twice as powerful as a Category 5 hurricane. Good grief, you would do better to stand behind the thrust of a jet engine and take your chances. At least you wouldn’t be hit by debris. Anything that can lift an SUV and send it a mile into a field is nothing to be trifled with.

    There will come a time that one of those massive things goes straight through the heart of OKC or Tulsa. And when it does, the death toll won’t be dozens or even hundreds. It will be thousands.

    I’m starting to have a healthier respect for these wicked bastards, and I’ve lived in tornado alley all my life.

  241. Dr, I add my thoughts and prayers for your son. Children are a wonder, aren’t they as they play among those suffering far worse diseases. We should be so accepting but then we have lost that naivety with which we were born.
    I recently lost a niece to a genetic disease, too involved to describe. Her sisters also have the disease but were diagnosed early. They are in recovery but will spend the rest of their life in treatment. How the family dealt with this tragedy is beyond me.

  242. Crap Raji….thats awful. I think we all might be tougher then we realize. But damn…

    I’m home. Got a great response from treatment. We did at blood test ten hours early and he was at 43,000. This might set off a platelet rocket.

    Pfessor, he is getting Intravenous gamma globulin (IVGG). Other options if this didn’t work were some sort of chemo, a steroid and even some treatment that attacks red blood cells alleviating the offensive on platelets. Spleen could be removed. And….some other shit.

  243. Damn, DR…your family deserves a break on the health front. Seems you folks have been getting hammered going back to your wife’s eye injury. And that isn’t even counting your chronic knee problems. Sorry to hear it.

  244. Rabbit said the Klan co-opted Christianity and James reiterated they “used” Christianity. Well yes gentlemen, that is the whole point. I doubt PF is saying the Bible explicitly endorses lynching black people. The point that most atheists make is that much wrong is done in the name of religion and therefore religion does NOT serve the purpose to pacify men or make them more decent. What bothers me more than it bothers PF is that some Christians call Muslims evil RATHER than saying some Muslims do wrong in the name of their religion.

    You don’t think Islam is co-opted by these violent nutjobs?

    If we are going to discuss human behavior, we have to come to the conclusion that there is an element of organization that corrupts people whether it is the church, the Penn State football program or even the damn Boy Scouts. There is something about individuals ceding their judgement to the “group” that causes problems.

    I’d go so far as to say it is even true of political parties.

    Hell, maybe anarchy is the best solution?

  245. Thor, on 282, yes I see your point but much of what has been “revealed” to the public recently has been in the committee’s possession for months now, including before November — I’m talking Benghazi in particular.

    We are seeing a very strange dance going on between the White House and their inconsistent stories and the Issa prosecution team who frankly don’t seem very good at it.

    In the meantime, has anyone noticed that the Republican House of Representatives hasn’t done sh*t to help this country in quite some time? No jobs bill. No infrastructure bill. No nothing. The economy is slowly improving in spite of them.

    P.S. And yes boys the economy is improving — consumer confidence rising, new homes rising — two strong indicators. Deficit shrinking. Notice, I’m not going to mention the stock market which is basically a casino. I won’t even claim that as a positive indicator.

    Bed time. See ya on the other side.

    P.P.S. Rabbit, hang in there with your boy. I know it’s tough. By the way, even folks like me who lean toward science rather than God must admit there is faith involved there too. Faith that the damn treatments will work. Allow your boy’s positive attitude to inspire you dude.

  246. “In the meantime, has anyone noticed that the Republican House of Representatives hasn’t done sh*t to help this country in quite some time? No jobs bill. No infrastructure bill. No nothing. The economy is slowly improving in spite of them.”

    Unlike the Senate, which has been wasting its time debating gun and immigration bills. Tell us, Rutherford…how many of those have passed?

    You’re making this too easy, man.

    “P.S. And yes boys the economy is improving — consumer confidence rising, new homes rising — two strong indicators.”

    That must be a mistake. Nobel laureates Barack Obama and Paul Krugman told us the economy was going to tank because of the sequester.

  247. You can almost see the swagger in Rutherford’s step as he throws into our faces how the economy is improving.

    As if a 5-year recovery effort is some kind of victory instead of proof of the failure of the left’s economic agenda.

    He thinks it’s recovering in spite of House Republicans blocking Obama’s every move instead of being because House Republicans block Obama’s every move.

  248. I trust God when after creating the plants on the 3rd day and He said it was good. I trust God’s wisdom and provision over man’s pharma companies and their goal for profits over people. I know plenty that swear by the healing powers of Cannabis. It was the most safe and common of all natural medicines claimed at curing a litany of ailments up until a hundred years ago when capitalism demonized it. One thing in a long, long list this nation has gotten wrong. It’s frustrating, I know. Makes you want to scream.

    There’s a community that can help right in your own backyard, rabbit. It is definitely worth checking out. There are real breakthroughs in the same area as your son’s condition.

    http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/

    Ignoring it reminds of that old guy that drowned after waiting for rescue on top of his house in a flood and went to Heaven and was scolded for not recognizing God’s provision by waving off 3 attempted rescues, because it wasn’t how he envisioned God sending what he had been praying for.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Rutherford, as to the economy improving, we are experiencing the next bubble beginning to expand before it pops. Don’t trust that things are truly improving, It’s a false sense of security. Inflation is creeping up everywhere from all the fiat the Bernanke waved into being. Nothing has changed, and if anything, it has gotten worse. The good thing is many are aware now and many are now debt free. Of course, in the meanwhile we’ve got Obama threatening to ramrod through the TPP, which is really bad for we, the people, and what’s left of our trampled constitution.

  249. PM, as much as I am confident that you are genuinely trying to help..I just can’t see DR’s 3 year old turning into the Choom Prince.

  250. The point that most atheists make is that much wrong is done in the name of religion and therefore religion does NOT serve the purpose to pacify men or make them more decent. What bothers me more than it bothers PF is that some Christians call Muslims evil RATHER than saying some Muslims do wrong in the name of their religion.

    Christians say all men have the capacity for evil and are born that way. That’s exactly what the Bible says. 😉 Atheists make a legitimate point that much evil is done in the name of religion.

    Much evil is also done in the name atheism. Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ho, Pol Pot, etc…

  251. “There was GOP voter fraud too, not including the organized attempt to keep Dems from the polls.” – R

    Bullshit. Fucking Bullshit. Voter ID would have specifically PREVENTED this kind of fraud. But then, when your electoral strategy rests on voter fraud, I guess I can see why you’d want to over look that.

  252. I have a theory as to why the economy appears to be improving when I believe it actually getting worse.

    Because the stock market has shot up, a pumped up stock market mind you from $1 trillion a year investment by Mr. Bernacke and the lack of other options (bond market) to make a ROI, people are feeling “richer” as their savings has grown.

    Therefore, they are willing to buy more big ticket purchases and it appears that things are purring along. But most of America is still struggling and that part is getting worse. Labor rates continue to fall, more people are going on disability and food stamps, energy continues to be expensive (when is the last time you saw $2.50 gas?). We now have over $1 trillion in student loans outstanding.

    Companies are still not hiring, people are dropping out of the work force, college graduates are still not finding jobs, and expenses like health care just experienced another double digit increase in 2012.

    Normal business cycles and depreciation and deterioration of equipment require that certain big ticket items have to be replaced – companies are replacing them; for instance, pickup trucks are hot items. Companies are also buying back their stock with the cash on hand but dividends have experienced little or no increase that I am aware.

    But the health of the real economy? Take a look around an intertwined global market. Europe and Asia are growing worse.

    Matter of time…

  253. “There was GOP voter fraud too, not including the organized attempt to keep Dems from the polls.” – R

    Gorilla, this is Rutherford at his dead level worst and his most dishonest. Not only is it a lie, the last election proved this claim a lie, and in fact, it is appearing that there was widespread fraud in favor of Dimocratic candidates.

    When it comes to politics, Rutherford is as dishonest as the worst of the MSNBC crowd and not to be trusted.

    Sorry Rutherford. But it is the truth. When it comes to politics, you’re a mendacious hack and the part I have zero respect for and detest.

  254. R – Just ran across this article this morning:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/4/pop-guns-pop-tarts-and-deadly-pencils/

    One of the reasons that our children are in last place – or nearly last – in every subject, when compared to children in other countries, is that our administrators spend their time on things like this:

    “Josh Welsh, 8, a student at Park Elementary School in Anne Arundel County, Md., was suspended for the crime of chewing a Pop Tart into the shape of a gun and saying, “Bang, bang.””

    “A deaf 3-year-old in Nebraska was targeted because his name in American Sign Language requires him to make a gesture that resembles a gun. A 5-year-old girl in Mount Carmel, Pa., was suspended from kindergarten for telling a friend she was going to shoot her with a pink Hello Kitty soap-bubble gun.”

    *********

    I still remember my grade school. The principal, Mr. Barrett, would tour the playground during recess; the kids would crowd around him and he’d sit down and talk with them. I can’t count the times he’d say, “Who’s got a pocketknife?” And at least half of us would pull one out and he’d compare his with ours and we’d have conversations about the merits of the Boker or the Case, vs the Tree Brand. Talk about bonding; we loved and respected that man.

    By the way, I still have my SCAT/STEP tests from the 3d and 6th grades. Our little grade school, ‘way up in the booger woods of Appalachia, ranked 96th percentile nationwide. Why? Because we didn’t waste our time on bullshit like who had a cap pistol or pocketknife.

    I also remember when they suspended my 6 year-old for goofing around with a girl in his class and smacking her on the butt while they were wrestling. Six fucking years old. Called him a “sex abuser.” Jesus, what is wrong with these people? By the time it was over, the teacher spent the first week of summer vacation teaching a classroom containing one student – my son – to make up for the days of instruction he lost.

    You talk about school shootings. One of these days a parent is going to clean out one of those nests of rats, and it won’t be the kids who are hurt.

  255. DR – they’ll hold off doing a splenectomy as long as possible. Contrary to popular belief, the spleen does have considerable function, although not life-preserving. Reduces the immune system somewhat if they remove it.

    Also causes the dad to shit square bricks, LOL.

    We’re all with you, man. Sounds like the little dude is doing pretty well, though.

  256. Tex hate to disappoint you but “widespread” voter fraud never happened. We live in a society now where the loser accuses the winner of cheating. Both sides do it. The Dems did it in 2004 when Bush beat Kerry.

    It’s the stuff of silly season and you damn well know it.

  257. Huck, re 305, it has NOTHING to do with smoking the stuff. It now has been PROVEN to eradicate tumors, cancerous and otherwise. It also does no damage and has no side effects like the chemo and other pharma products DO. It has been used successfully against many debilitating diseases. Duh! We have cannabinoid receptors in our organic bodies including the brain.

    http://www.news-medical.net/health/Cannabinoid-Receptors.aspx

    The fact that there are ZERO deaths from its use puts it well above the pharma crap we pay out the nose for.

    Man, this country is chock FULL of bumpkins. No wonder we’re in such a downward spiral. Even our ‘smart’ folks have that internal rectal vision.

  258. Voting gives Americans an illusion of choice. There is no choice. Candidate A is candidate B with a different face and tie. Candidate C,D, and E are there to further attempt to legitimize the illusion.

    Money controls us and has for a long time. Now, with the TPP on the verge of passing, the rest of our pie in the sky illusions will quickly dissipate.

  259. Poolman I’d have a hard time believing ZERO deaths can be attributed to pot. Surely there have been vehicular deaths attributable to being under the influence of marijuana.

  260. Rutherford, we don’t know how many fraudulant votes are in the system. We do know about the failed attempts.

    A close election only needs a few stolen votes. Lyndon Johnson was nicknamed “Landslide Lyndon” because of a few questionable votes which won him a Congressional election.

    I do believe a side effect of the IRS scandal was voter suppression. An unknown number of conservatives was unable to compete equally with liberal groups thanks to the IRS’s admitted targeting of Tea Party and other groups.

  261. I agree with Rutherford. Zero is a big number. A pot smoker could have been killed in an auto accident when smoking while high.

  262. Tex hate to disappoint you but “widespread” voter fraud never happened. We live in a society now where the loser accuses the winner of cheating. Both sides do it. The Dems did it in 2004 when Bush beat Kerry.

    Rutherford, hate to disappoint you but you are not a man of honor or virtue. You don’t look for truth; you seek confirmation.

    Took me about two years to learn that disappointing trait of yours. You’re dishonest, Rutherford. This is why I turned on you last fall and have tried to keep it under wraps just simply to hold the peace now. But I can’t stand your enabling anymore.

    Muffy is right. You would do anything to win. And I do mean anything. That’s the only reason you’ve shown any humility since the election – you won. Won what, I don’t know as the country now not only mired in gross mismanagement and incompetence, but scandal.

  263. Ignorance is bliss, eh? Because a pot smoker was killed in a car accident doesn’t make the pot smoking at cause. It amazes me how many people that don’t have experience with marijuana think they know so much. You cannot OD on pot. You do not lose control of your faculties. It can be made into a salve that attacks melanoma and other skin abnormalities. It has been used to relieve the debilitating pain of arthritis, eliminates nausea, helps ADHD, ADD, and fibromyalgia patients. The stuff is amazing and organic.

  264. Man, this country is chock FULL of bumpkins. No wonder we’re in such a downward spiral. Even our ‘smart’ folks have that internal rectal vision.

    Poolman, you remind me of Frank Zappa as he was preaching to the world how stupid we all were. Then poor Moon and Dweezil were left daddyless when the schmuck was dead at 53 from prostate cancer – as he went on some vision quest seeking alternative medicines. Now, that’s living! 😐

    Poolman, ever seen a long-term, habitual cannabis user? It’s pathetic. The health effects mimic dementia. And it happens at a much younger age. Got a couple of worthless old buddies my age, trying to hold it together and growing their own reefer. Frankly, it will be better for society when they’re gone. Dreamers and dopers who will have contributed nothing.

    Anything that impairs the ability to react, whether alcohol or weed, causes accidents. You going to tell me now weed doesn’t affect reaction times too?

  265. One last thing, Rutherford & Thor. GM lives. Rousing success that both of you bragged two years ago.

    From your low overhead, no overhead federal government, Thor:

    How about another $10 billion loss for the taxpayers? Let’s give them health care!!!!

    The Treasury, which initially held 60.8 percent of GM as part of the U.S. $49.5 billion bailout, now owns just 16.4 percent, or 241.7 million shares. In December, the Treasury sold GM 200 million shares of its stake for $5.5 billion to reduce its stake to 300 million shares.

    In total, Treasury has recouped $30.6 billion. At current trading prices, Treasury would lose around $10 billion on its GM bailout.

    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130605/AUTO0103/306050039/Treasury-UAW-health-care-trust-will-sell-50-million-shares-GM-stock?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

  266. Welcome to the Other Side

    “In the meantime, has anyone noticed that the Republican House of Representatives hasn’t done sh*t to help this country in quite some time? No jobs bill. No infrastructure bill. No nothing. The economy is slowly improving in spite of them.
    P.S. And yes boys the economy is improving — consumer confidence rising, new homes rising — two strong indicators. Deficit shrinking. Notice, I’m not going to mention the stock market which is basically a casino. I won’t even claim that as a positive indicator.
    Bed time. See ya on the other side.” — Rutherford

    Recognizing the strong financial skills Rutherford possesses… I found the above comment, entertaining. Again, it boggles the mind how someone who went to an “Ivory Tower” institution can be so ignorant. Granted, MSNBC doesn’t get into money, and thus he’s likely never going to exposed to facts and stats, but still… damn.

    This morning’s 11.5% week-over-week plunge in mortgage applications is the fourth week of fading demand in a row as it appears the bloom is very much off the rose of the second-coming of the housing bubble. This makes it the worst plunge in mortgage applications since June 2009 and the lowest level of activity since December 2011. Wondering how this is possible? We explained in detail here but this collapse in mortgage demand fits perfectly with Mark Hanson’s insights that a number of “large private mortgage bankers had mass layoffs last Friday to the tune of 25% to 50% of their operations staff.” This all feels very deja vu all over again.

    Zero Hedge does a great job of expanding on the above with this:

    The airwaves are full of stories of economic recovery. One trumpeted recently has been the rapid recovery in housing, at least as measured in prices. The problem is, a good portion of the rebound in house prices in many markets has less to do with renewed optimism, new jobs, and rising wages, and more to do with big money investors fueled by the ultra-cheap money policies of the Fed. It seems entirely wrong that the Fed bailed out big banks and made money excessively cheap for institutions, and that this is being used to price ordinary people out of the housing market. Said another way, the Fed prints fake money out of thin air, and some companies use that same money to buy real things like houses and then rent them out to real people trying to live real lives.

    And then of course there’s this:

    So much for the thesis of declining labor slack and rising labor leverage. Moments ago the BLS reported its Q1 labor costs which poured cold water over all recent hypotheses that the US worker’s plight is improving. It isn’t: productivity increased by 0.5% in Q1 in ling with expectations of 0.6% (on what is not exactly clear – everyone on their iPhones?) but it was labor costs which plunged -4.3% on expectations of a +0.5% increase driven by a 3.8% collapse in hourly compensation that was the stunner. This was the biggest labor cost drop in four years and the biggest collapse in hourly compensation in well, ever and confirms our observations from the last NFP report that quantity gains in jobs continue to be offset by quality declines in actual worker pay. As a reminder we were scratching our heads following the soaring Q4 labor cost and declining productivity data which made no sense in the general context of deteriorating labor conditions. Following this print, it all falls back into place and confirms the Q4 data was nothing but an outlier.

    Of course, your trumpeting that Obama isn’t going to run a trillion dollar deficit as economic improvement is comical at best. You may be right, it won’t be a trillion dollars, but $900 billion isn’t much of an improvement.

    As for the GOP not doing “shit”, well, that’s… shit—as in BULLSHIT.

    http://majorityleader.gov/JobsTracker/

    There are 40 job bills currently stalled in the DEMOCRAT controlled Senate, but I imagine Special Ed hasn’t talked about those either…

  267. Explaining the chart above:

    Residential housing is the single largest “tangible” US real estate asset, worth roughly $18 trillion (but well below the total financial assets in circulation in the US). Housing inventory as of May was 133.2 million units, of which owner occupied is 78.9 million, renter occupied was 41.7 million, but most troubling: 12.6 million was Vacant. Some shortage… It is this mismatch between 11.1 million in negative equity “owner occupied” units and 12.6 million vacant units that all those who peddle the rent-to-own dream are focused on as America becomes increasingly a society of rents. It also means that the millions in soon to be formerly owner-occupied homes have to stay on bank books and not enter the market in other to generate the illusion of scarcity or else the myth that there is a housing shortage will be blown right out of the water.

    I’m curious R, do you rent or own?

  268. 10 billion? Not too bad. I wonder how long it will take for the GM workers and the workers in their supply chains to pay 10 billion dollars in income and FICA taxes?

    DR, good to hear they might be getting a handle on how to help your son. Funny that you would mention praying for the other children, I already did. Last night when praying for your family I also added a prayer for little rabbit’s new friends. (I didn’t know how else to say it.) I know PF and R will say it’s just a coincidence.

    If so, my life has had many coincidences. 🙂

  269. 10 billion? Not too bad. I wonder how long it will take for the GM workers and the workers in their supply chains to pay 10 billion dollars in income and FICA taxes?

    You know what I like best about you, Thor? Unlike Rutherford, who simply shuts up when he has been busted, you will continue to fling poo until something sticks that sounds meaningful to the low information voter. I give you an ‘A’ for effort and consistency and an ‘F’ in content and understanding.

    And there is no doubt you and Rutherford have taught me a hard lesson. One that forever will leave a horrid taste in my mouth. Where I assumed America couldn’t possibly be that stupid, you were right. They are.

    Let’s carry your statement to its logical conclusion. If that makes sense and it an investment as you implied, then why are you not pushing the federal government to “invest” in every failing publicly held company in America? I mean, weren’t the Solyndra execs paying income and FICA taxes too? They most certainly had supply chains.

    Couldn’t we be infinitely wealthy then?

    Your muddled thinking Thor reminds me of those who always assure us that there is no worry about the monetary supply. We can always print more money, therefore it is impossible for the United States to go bankrupt. Or that food stamps are the fastest way to stimulate consumer demand. Or that labor force participation rates are moving downward because all the Baby Boomers are retiring.

    Bravo!

  270. “Your muddled thinking Thor reminds me of those who always assure us that there is no worry about the monetary supply. We can always print more money, therefore it is impossible for the United States to go bankrupt. Or that food stamps are the fastest way to stimulate consumer demand. Or that labor force participation rates are moving downward because all the Baby Boomers are retiring.” – Tex

    I hope you’re not implying that I said those things, because I didn’t.

    As for GM and Solyndra, apples and oranges. Solyndra was a brand new company in a young and rapidly evolving industry. GM was one of only three major domestic corporations in a mature market. If they went down it would have ripped the Midwest apart. If we had a policy of doing it every time than it wouldn’t have taken Obama’s leadership to recognize this as a special situation and pull the trigger. It would have happened automatically.

    And yes, I did use Obama and leadership in the same sentence. I’m sure there will be hell to pay. 🙂

  271. Gorilla @ 327.

    I agree with you. I think the “housing market coming back” talk is way premature. At least in this area. The telltale sign is that several of the larger local builders are taking rebuild and remodel jobs. They hate those jobs. Like bidding on one of those abandoned storage facilities, just never know what you’ll find once you open it up.

    A guy I know was in construction, had to get out during the crash. Now he works at a casino. Less money and it numbs his mind, but it’s steady work. Real life metaphor for a lot of people in this country.

  272. I’m having a ball at Fat Grannies. Someone decided to take the usual liberal, politically-correct poke at Dead White Men and I poked them back. heheeeeeee……the NAGS are all running for a change of underwear, they’re so pissed. (chortle, chortle)

  273. GM was one of only three major domestic corporations in a mature market. If they went down it would have ripped the Midwest apart. If we had a policy of doing it every time than it wouldn’t have taken Obama’s leadership to recognize this as a special situation and pull the trigger. It would have happened automatically.

    Why would it have ripped the Midwest apart? According to estimates of the Hoover Institution, about 4,000 auto related jobs were saved than what would have resulted from a traditional bankruptcy program. GM and Chrysler would still be around in reconstituted form.

    You don’t like the $90 billion wasted in the pipe dream of green energy that hasn’t panned out? Okay, American Airlines is one of only five major airline carriers. They were forced to file bankruptcy. They have laid off several hundred off in my town alone. Why didn’t Obama show leadership and why didn’t we bail them out? They have hundreds of suppliers and middle men that are dependent upon their business.

    It would appear to me, that the only special situation is a narrow political constituency payoff to big labor.

    But you avoided my real question. If this was such a good deal for the American public, why aren’t we doing it all over America in struggling industries like textile and steel?

  274. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-21/business/39416900_1_senate-gop-senate-democrats-house-gop

    Remember when you guys were all up in arms about how the Dems wouldn’t deliver a budget. That rant seems to have gone away. Why is that? Maybe it’s this.

    “McCain and Collins also argued that the stall tactics look ridiculous after months of GOP complaints about the refusal by Senate Democrats to adopt a budget. The first Senate budget in three years won approval 59 days ago, and Republicans have been dragging their feet every since.”

  275. Like I said, leadership. I think Obama could look at AA and say, change your business model. Southwest seems to have it figured out.
    If he wants to help airlines he could do something about speculation in fuel markets or tamp down the shadow of the TSA. Anymore, flying is a total pain in the ass.

    As for steel, the best thing for that would be to get the economy going again. And perhaps make sure big govt projects go to domestic suppliers to avoid anymore debacles like the one out in California.

    As for textiles, those boys decided to leave town on their own. I don’t think loan guarantees would have kept them here.

    Now let’s cut the bull. Govt helps business every day in this country, as you well know. If you have been consistent in this regard, then my apologies, but the only reason GM burns the butt of most Republicans is that Obama used it to win Ohio, and he used Ohio to win the election. It started under Bush for God’s sake, but somehow Obama managed to make it a feather in his cap alone. Probably because of the Romney Op-Ed piece.

  276. The company server crashed so I’m browsing this thread until we’re back up again:

    I would question the Post Office – an impending financial disaster which simply can’t compete with the more efficient private corporations. Look at the rising costs of the most basic service – mailing a letter.

    The Postal Service can be fixed very easily by changing the way money is allocated to the pension plans. I don’t remember the exact figures but Congress forces the PO to allocate many years of pensions in advance thus sucking the service dry. Congress could easily fix this and the PO would be turning a profit in no time.

  277. Govt helps business every day in this country, as you well know.

    Apparently, our overlords of Obama pick and choose who they help every day. GM and Goldman Sachs, yes; Exxon Mobil and Lehman Brothers, no.

    But if you think 1.75 trillion in compliance and regulation is really helping business in this country, I got a bridge.

    Thor, you finally just admitted the reason behind the entire big save of Government Motors, thought that not your intent of course because truth is not really in you behind that facade of prayer. Exactly who was it you were praying to, for instance? 😀 I can’t tell you how fallacious that reads.

    The GM bailout was solely political as a calculated gamble to win swing states. It worked. It was a horrible business transaction that cost not only the American taxpayers billions, but the corporate bondholders too. (and always conveniently forgotten by you). It was robbing Peter to pay Paul and the bondholders were left high and dry.

    But that is the problem with myopic minds like yours. Everything is politic to you, as it is to Rutherford. Because you are inherently weak at such things at basic math, economics and finance, you don’t get it.

    The first rule of physical and mathematical law is something that can’t go on forever, won’t. All you’ve done is sweep under the rug and postpone. You’ve hid a lack of production and demand by borrowing and printing.

    It’s like your claims of Obama saving us from Depression. And your proof? There is none. But it sounds good to the low information voter and it now readily apparent to me, America has deviated down so low, it works.

    In conjunction with your Orwellian double speak of ‘revenue generation’, which used to be called taxes by another name, you hide the truth of the situation.

    My only consoling thought is there will come a day you and yours get to answer…and finally you will get to suffer the consequences. Unfortunately, many of us will get to join you, no matter how good the fight.

  278. By the way, Rutherford. I have a mail guy I really like. He could have retired two years ago if he wished. Told me he doesn’t have enough hobbies to keep him busy and likes driving the truck. Now mind you, the man has worked his entire adult life for the Post Office.

    Would you like to know what he tells me the situation at the Post Office is? His words, not mine?

    A cluster fuck of idiots and thieves, quote unquote.

    Do you spinmeisters selling us all about the efficiency of the P.O. know something Larry doesn’t know?

  279. Hey Tex and PF — medical question — just saw headline that Sibelius was ordered to change limits on adult lung transplants into children under 12 years of age. What are we talking chest capacity wise when we transplant an adult lung into a 10 year old? How much do the lungs grow as we age?

    Just curious. Poor kid involved in the legal imbroglio has cystic fibrosis a disease I really identify with because of my own restrictive lung disease which makes it difficult to keep lungs clear. I don’t have CS but from the descriptions of it that I have heard I can imagine what it must feel like.

  280. It is worth noting that for the most part I agree with Noah’s comment # 3.

    What is particularly vexing is that most of the time we can rely on a younger generation of society to be progressive and abandon old grievances. The young Muslim radicals are as nutty as their elders if not more so. The children, in places like Palestine are taught to hate at an early age. Seems to me this compounds the problem of “fixing Islam”.

  281. Re: #336

    Yeah, you’re right, Thor.

    59 days of delay absolves Democrats of over 1000 days of inaction.

    At least the GOP gave a reason for its delay. Show us the link that gave Reid’s excuse for his.

  282. Here’s the synopsis of the Dim budget plan that men like Thor propose:

    After four years of operating without a federal budget, Senate Democrats unveiled a budget last week that ultimately calls for a $1 trillion increase in new taxes over the next 10 years, while simultaneously increasing spending. The Democrats’ budget has been heavily criticized because it is projected to raise the national debt by approximately $4 trillion. While the Democrats contend that their plan will include approximately $1.85 trillion in deficit reduction, further analysis of the budget reveals that the Democrats have double counted the savings in their proposed budget.

    And you’ll note the “budget” (approx. $3.7 trillion) is approximately 25% of the entire GDP. Who knew we in WWII again?

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonynitti/2013/03/14/senate-democrats-unveil-their-own-budget-proposal-push-for-nearly-1-trillion-in-additional-tax-increases/

  283. I don’t want it to seem like I am approving of the GOP stalling…I don’t.

    Whoever’s “turn” it is in the budget process needs to get off its ass and do its job. That doesn’t equate to giving in, it equates to working. If the next step is to set up the committee to reconcile budgets to produce something final, then it’s time to get that done. If the democrats outfox the republicans in that process, as is the claim for the holdup, then its their own fault.

  284. It is kinda funny that the same folks criticizing Obama for declaring an end to the war on terror fully supported Bush as he stood in front of his “Mission Accomplished” sign.

    Mmmmm thought I saw a headline a day or so ago about massive casualties in Iraq. Yeah, we sure did help that democratic experiment along. 🙄

  285. Pfesser,

    You’re a bad influence. Now they’ll be filing a double secret probation class action law suit against me for insulting the whole shebang and threatening them with cow tipping.

  286. Mmmmm thought I saw a headline a day or so ago about massive casualties in Iraq. Yeah, we sure did help that democratic experiment along.

    Ah, excuse me rube. Didn’t you promise us the power of Obama’s dynamic personality would bring world peace, along with stopping the rising tides?

    And didn’t Obama promise to end the bad war? Seems there was peace in 2008, if memory serves. In 2013 Iraq, not so much.

    Where’s the magic, Edith?

  287. “It is kinda funny that the same folks criticizing Obama for declaring an end to the war on terror fully supported Bush as he stood in front of his “Mission Accomplished” sign.

    Mmmmm thought I saw a headline a day or so ago about massive casualties in Iraq. Yeah, we sure did help that democratic experiment along.”

    It’s kinda funny that the same folks that criticized Bush for declaring the end to combat operations in Iraq are now supporting Obama as he tells us the War on Terror is over and that he has virtually destroyed al Qaeda.

    Mmmmm thought I saw a headline today about how the perpetrator of so-called workplace violence admits it was a terrorist attack in support of the Taliban and a headline a couple days ago about killing suspected al Qaeda members in Yemen.

    Rutherford, you backed the wrong horse if you want to have the moral high ground against ANY Bush-era policy…and that includes pouring water over the face of terror suspects.

  288. Bush was foolish for the “Mission Accomplished” thing.

    But no more so than Obama is for trying to feed us his bullshit.

  289. Would appear to me Huck, that the Obama Doctrine is to criticize the Bush Doctrine, then double down on the Bush Doctrine and substitute drones for water boarding. Drones are so much more humane, after all.

    Obama and his supporters are the world’s worst hypocrites by nature.

  290. Also..Bush wasn’t declaring mission accomplished for setting up a stable democracy in Iraq…it was mission accomplished for the end of major combat operations.

    Since Obama likes to take credit for pulling us out of Iraq…I guess that means he agrees that those major combat operations had ended, doesn’t it?

  291. “substitute drones for water boarding.”

    And finger-probing assholes in order to meet with an attorney and tubes down throats to force feed people.

    Bush waterboarded a grand total of 3 people. And he took action against the stuff going on at Abu Ghraib.

    I already asked once and it got ignored…

    If Obama is so outraged over force-feeding prisoners (I will assume he is also outraged over the fact that they get a finger shoved up their ass as a condition of meeting with their lawyer, even though he hasn’t actually expressed any)…then why doesn’t he pick up the phone and order the practice(s) stopped?

    When it comes to foreign policy, the war on terror, and the treatment of terror suspects Barack Obama is full of shit…and every liberal in the country knows it.

  292. I don’t think the resident liberals here are putting much forethought into their comment sniping. They are making things WAAAAAY too easy.

    Either they are just being lazy or they just don’t have enough in the way of policy defense to work with.

    My guess is that it’s a little of both.

  293. I don’t know, Huck. But we may have found something Obama and his sycophants are capable – even excelling. Something as President, Obama would be uniquely capable.

    Asshole probing. Sounds right up Barry’s and Erie’s alley. Take a few of the IRS thugs with them.

  294. Obama sure is going to be pissed off tomorrow when he reads in the paper that some low-level NSA staffer has been ordering Verizon to turn over the daily phone logs of millions of Americans without a warrant or reason.

    He might even hold a press conference over it! (gasp!!!!!!111)

  295. R – I don’t have experience with lung transplants. Transplanting lungs that are too large will prevent the lungs from inflating fully and make them a setup for lifelong infection. Remember the lungs are 99 degrees, warm, wet and dark, so they have to be able to drain perfectly to avoid infection.

    Now you know everything I know and you still don’t know anything. LOL.

  296. The children, in places like Palestine are taught to hate at an early age. Seems to me this compounds the problem of “fixing Islam”

    Lots of parents teach hate. Whole cultures teach hate, including your own us of a. I don’t know why you would broad brush… oh wait, that IS the msm meme. Of course we don’t get much Palestinian reports by Palestinians. That may change the report a bit. Don’t get me wrong, they have plenty of reason to hate if you look at what they have been forced to endure, but I don’t think there is hate taught entirely. Many proclaim Christianity in Palestine. Lord knows the other Muslim nations have pretty much ignored them. All Abramaic faith’s basic tenets do not teach hate. Now if you get into the many factions, ‘nother story.

  297. “The United States is a nation of laws: Badly written and randomly enforced.” – Frank Zappa

    He was a very busy guy, Tex. He produced 60 albums. You should’t throw such large stones at the dead. You might peruse his wiki page. He was a big advocate of free speech. I think the mustard gas contributed to his early death. Couldn’t have helped.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Zappa

    I use to think he was deeply satanic, but have since changed my opinion. That is what kept me from exploring more of his stuff when he was popular. Genius.

  298. “Seems there was peace in 2008, if memory serves. In 2013 Iraq, not so much.”

    Nice revisionist history there Pal (the wife and I just finished watching a 1941 Nick and Nora movie so I feel like talking 40’s style).

    Iraq was a clusterfuck in 2008–now just more so. Sodamn Insane had a good racket going and we ruined it.

  299. “Would appear to me Huck, that the Obama Doctrine is to criticize the Bush Doctrine, then double down on the Bush Doctrine and substitute drones for water boarding. Drones are so much more humane, after all.”

    I completely agree with this statement. No sarcasm intended.

  300. Yes life in Iraq was so much easier under Saddam…unless you were a Kurd getting gassed…or a Shi’ite getting killed by helicopter gunships….or a woman being raped by his sons….or a member of the government being a victim of his many purges…or….

    I am no way saying it is equal to or even better now. But to try and lead on as if life in Saddam’s Iraq was good is engaging in its own revisionist history.

  301. And I always think it is worth pointing out in discussions on Iraq that we cannot look to 2000 and before Iraq and think it is the Iraq we would see today.

    There is no reason not to think we would have seen uprisings and rebellion in Iraq like we have seen in many other Arab states. And Saddam’s history gives us every reason to believe it would look more like Syria does today, than like any other Middle East state.

    You want to make comparisons?….compare Syria today to Iraq today. Don’t compare Iraq today to Iraq yesterday.

  302. “Exactly who was it you were praying to, for instance? 😀 I can’t tell you how fallacious that reads.” – Tex

    I’m not completely sure. That’s why I’m still searching, questioning. You clearly have made up your mind. But surely you’re not saying I have to be a Christian in order to pray for Rabbit’s child, for any child?

  303. “I don’t want it to seem like I am approving of the GOP stalling…I don’t.” Huck

    Good. Then we are in agreement.

    “Whoever’s “turn” it is in the budget process needs to get off its ass and do its job.” Huck

    It’s nobody’s turn. The House and the Senate have both passed their budgets. It’s time for conference, but the Repubs are blocking it going to conference.

  304. Are we also in agreement that 59 days of stalling does not excuse over 1000 days of stalling?

    Because I don’t recall you speaking up when it was the democrats doing it.

    And I don’t see you speaking against it, even now.

  305. As usual, Thor is exhibiting his selective outrage that is triggered on and off depending on the letters following the offenders name.

  306. Like I said…I don’t like the GOP stalling, but at least they are giving a reason why they are doing it.

    I am still waiting for Thor to tell us why Democrats did it for over 1000 days, while he sat back and said nothing.

    And yeah, I am going to harp on it because you brought it up.

  307. I’m not completely sure. That’s why I’m still searching, questioning. You clearly have made up your mind. But surely you’re not saying I have to be a Christian in order to pray for Rabbit’s child, for any child?

    I was just curious to who you thought yourself praying. Pray all you want – like Rutherford, nice thoughts do you well. Or so I have been told. I don’t know how you arrive at that conclusion, but what the hey? I’ve already told you what I thought, good intentions aside.

    You wouldn’t follow my advice, so what does it matter? You’re cock sure you’re right, arrogant enough to be convinced because you won. And that is all that matters, results be damned. You’ll fix the results if need be. You’re satisfied with Obama; or worse you think he should move even further left. I suggest you take that path and cut the mealy-mouth garbage. Fallacious to pretend otherwise.

    It’s like your budget. The budget matters as much as a budget that is one trillion dollars a year plus before it even starts. That’s not a budgeted plan – that’s an addict attending the AA meeting for the 32nd time. What kind of a meaningful budget is in arrears a trillion before it starts? Exactly what purpose does the budget serve when the budget exceeded by April and we knew that last September? 😆

    But here’s something you might care about. I’ll be absolutely honest. I have no intention of meeting you half way up the hole. Why don’t you admit like me the country so hopelessly divided, we don’t we go ahead an make it official? I want to move to Texas anyway. I don’t see much of a reason to keep beating around the bush and not admitting the truth. It’s over with – and half this country is not interested in following your path, Thor. Ever. I want your impact on my children to be zero.

    We’re all just to chicken to make the inevitable step because of where it might lead.

    Like I said. If I honestly believe you, Rutherford and millions like you cutting off the legs of this country and ruining the country for my children, and I do…

    If I think you’re propagandists, self-absorbed, intellectually lazy zealots, liars and the like, I’m not going to offer you one leg to cut off and consider it a compromise of sorts. Maybe a fool would.

  308. As usual, Thor is exhibiting his selective outrage that is triggered on and off depending on the letters following the offenders name.

    Not selective outrage – he’s thinking. If Thor scans enough websites, there’s going to be some excuse that sounds good to the low information voters and will convince the masses of Fat Granny types. Right now, he’s perusing for excuse ‘A’ to negate ‘B’. Predictable as the sun rising. Probably scanning Media Matters as we speak.

    If you read that GM screed from above, you can excuse anything in the name of almighty government efficiency. After all, GM workers will make up the difference. I don’t know what the rest of us that had $10 billion taken are thinking. I guess us not getting to pay FICA is also a good thing. But there’s bound to be something. Like Rutherford’s Post Office. God forbid they ever finally can junk mail. 😆

    Dear Leader Obama. That’s what it is. Or racism. Could be tacit racism.

  309. Every single day Verizon has to turn over all of its phone logs to the NSA.

    Think about that for a minute….

    “The order, signed by Judge Roger Vinson, compels Verizon to produce to the NSA electronic copies of “all call detail records or ‘telephony metadata’ created by Verizon for communications between the United States and abroad” or “wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls”.”

    The order directs Verizon to “continue production on an ongoing daily basis thereafter for the duration of this order”. It specifies that the records to be produced include “session identifying information”, such as “originating and terminating number”, the duration of each call, telephone calling card numbers, trunk identifiers, International Mobile Subscriber Identity (IMSI) number, and “comprehensive communication routing information”.

    And what’s worse….

    “It is not known whether Verizon is the only cell-phone provider to be targeted with such an order, although previous reporting has suggested the NSA has collected cell records from all major mobile networks. It is also unclear from the leaked document whether the three-month order was a one-off, or the latest in a series of similar orders.”

    More than likely, the NSA is getting phone logs of EVERY TELECOMMUNICATION CONVERSATION GOING ON IN THE COUNTRY, EVERY DAY.

    And why?…because shut up, that’s why.

    “The court order expressly bars Verizon from disclosing to the public either the existence of the FBI’s request for its customers’ records, or the court order itself.”

    The shit going on under this administration defies belief.

  310. Shall we start a pool on how long it takes before the word “Verizon” is labeled a racist dog whistle?

    I am taking 6 days, not counting the weekend.

  311. Allowing illegal weapons to flow into a foreign country that end up being used in countless murders.

    Refusing to prosecute voter intimidation by racist militant groups.

    Willfully lying to the American public about the nature of a terrorist attack.

    Marginalizing an individual media firm.

    Spying on reporters.

    Threatening journalists.

    Using federal agencies to intimidate and deter opposition movements.

    Spying on every American phone call.

    Drone killing foreign civilians.

    Anal probing detainees.

    Did I miss any? There are so many I am not even sure if I can remember them all, at this point.

  312. Huck @376
    “I wonder if Eric Holder is tapping The Guardian’s phones tonight?….”

    Before or after he informs Obama…..? 😉

  313. re: Verizon records

    If this it true, and I see no reason to think it is not, it would seem to me that the Great Constitutional Scholar has violated at least two of the Articles of the Bill of Rights.

    This bother anybody? I am reminded of nothing so much as ‘thirties Germany. Didn’t bother folks much then, either – until it was too late.

    Rutherford; in my eyes this is a test of sorts for you. You know I support your ass most of the time, but I want to know what you think about this, and no bullshit, no crawfishing, no bobbing and weaving. What the hell is going on here?

  314. Huck, you only forgot one that I can think of in 378. Many government agencies are now communicating with secret e mails which they refuse to share. The AP tried to get some information under the Freedom of Information Act and the Justice Department, I think, wanted to charge them about a million dollars.

  315. I’m not in the mood to be in another argument at the twin site, because doctors are now watching our daughter every several days. Can you say possible preeclampsia boy and girls? She isn’t there , but some things like blood pressure have changed rapidly this week.

    Cultural Diversity: A World View by Thomas Sowell says much better than I hinted at earlier why those people are wrong.

    Ethnic Minorities and the Clash of Civilizations by Harvard Kenn touches on the influence of dead white men, but he mainly discusses Huntington’s Thesis of the “clash of civilizations.”

    Both say societies and people adopt different things from other cultures because they are better. The West borrowed from many non-European cultures and amalgamated them to something new and better than what came before Its politically incorrect to say, but dead white men created a . society which is now better than others, and “everyone” now wants to be us.

  316. 1930’s Nazi Germany, Pfesser. You’re damn right.

    This is only the latest incident. Orwell was about 30 years late, but called it. Frankly, the IRS incidents were the last straw. These Gestapos from the Left hide behind 501(c)(4)s as convenient excuse, but are completely ignoring that individuals were also targeted for abuse who were donors to the Romney campaign.

    And Rutherford will ignore it.

    This is the problem with the federal government being left in control without restraint. Why on God’s green earth men like Thor would believe the federal government sharing and dictating your medical history and treatment respectively is good thing, I can’t figure it out.

    The arrogance of this administration is beyond anything I ever imagined. I warned anyone that would listen that once Obama was unleashed from the bonds of reelection, the real stormtrooper would come out.

    Anyone doubt me now?

  317. James, how far is your daughter along? The reason I ask is that one big concern is gestational diabetes and apparently the doctors failed to mention that to my niece who recently delivered. My soon-to-be daughter doctor is the first one who noticed and mentioned it. Then the doctors stood around and shock their heads in agreement. 😉

    We just experienced that with our niece. Don’t let the fricking hospital drag it out too long. OKC’s idiocy in medicine five times sent my niece home over a seven day period before finally inducing labor. They should have induced the very first night.

    One week wouldn’t have made a hill of beans difference; Sarah was well over eight months along – but the week was hell on the entire family, and worse on my niece traveling 160 miles round trip each time. On top of that, the baby was over 10lbs and delivered by c-section.

    I will tell you that my faith in medicine the last year has been compromised. It was my daughter last year who jumped all over the medical staff for letting my dad go ten days without food. And then after disagreeing with my daughter on day 5, the hospitalist finally ordered and the G.I. inserted a PEG like my daughter had suggested five days after the fact. My father finally begin to recover after that. 😡

    I told my daughter, “Baby, you’ve got a misperception about healthcare and you better enter this eyes wide open. You are working in Anderson Medical with some of the greatest doctors in the entire world. Shieks come there for treatment. Don’t think for a minute that is how medicine is practiced across this country. Half of these doctors are scared to death of suit; 25% of them are probably incompetent.”

    I know for a fact this hospitalist was.

  318. Huck, you and your hyperbole and vitriol. When will it end. 🙄

    I think you forgot about the sequester lies (although threatening reporters was included).

    PF, R and Thor got exactly what they voted for AND WANTED. Hell, R considers it entertainment to hold nightly family gatherings watching a propaganda station that’s own ads stream messages of “more and unchecked federal government.” Asking for a serious response from R is wishful thinking. After all, only right-wing whackos fear unrestrained government and abandonment of its subjects constitutional rights. Hope & Change!!!!

    Tex, your assessment of the our resident libs is dead on.

  319. Hell, R considers it entertainment to hold nightly family gatherings watching a propaganda station that’s own ads stream messages of “more and unchecked federal government.”

    😆 😆 😆

    That’s a hell of a life, isn’t it?

    Man, if I ever suggested that for entertainment to my wife and kids, I’d get brained with a frying pan or maybe ironed.

    “Get your sorry, ignorant ass back to bedroom and get out of our hair…”

  320. The worst part of the list on #378 is…

    …those are only the things we know about.

    And word is that the DOJ will be investigating the leak to The Guardian.

  321. “a propaganda station ”

    And we can officially call them that, now that they have admitted in public that they are not the place for news.

  322. “My job this morning is to be so persuasive…that a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany, and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote for Barack,” he told a crowd of about 300 Ivy Leaguers–and, by the looks of it, a handful of locals who managed to gain access to what was supposed to be a students-only event.

    For one thing, under an Obama presidency, Americans will be able to leave behind the era of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and ”wiretaps without warrants,” he said. (He was referring to the lingering legal fallout over reports that the National Security Agency scooped up Americans’ phone and Internet activities without court orders, ostensibly to monitor terrorist plots, in the years after the September 11 attacks.) — January 8, 2008

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9845595-7.html

  323. Remember boys, the economy under one of the most corrupt administrations in American history is improving.

    Rutherford said so.

    “About 58.6% of the civilian population over age 16 had a job as of April, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. This rate — officially called the “employment-population ratio” — has been stuck in that range for several years. The last time it was this low was in 1983.”

    Looking at the job market using that measure paints a stark picture. Sure, companies have been hiring, but they’ve been creating jobs at a pace that merely keeps up with recent population growth. It’s not enough to also make up for the jobs lost in the crisis.”- CNN.com

  324. “And word is that the DOJ will be investigating the leak to The Guardian.”

    You think the report comes from a foreign news service was mere coincidence?

  325. Shame on George Bush for opening this door and shame on Barack Obama for racing through it and widening it.

  326. Some of Obama’s recent personnel shuffling requires confirmation.

    Rand Paul should use that opportunity to do another filibuster…this time with the topic of the NSA phone log scandal. Ask Barack Obama how exactly are the phone logs being used and then talk about it for 12-15 hours or so.

  327. Tex, our daughter is due about June 17, and so far her baby weighs an estimated slightly more than five pounds. Small babies run in the family. After the doctors discovered the baby’s head was growing a little more slowly than it should, they suspected a shortage of nourishment.

    They originally planed to induce labor on May 30, but since nothing had changed, they decided to check yesterday. The baby didn’t seem to have changed adversly, so they decided to wait a little longer.

    The baby was very still, so they kept our daughter in the office for almost two hours until they could see movement. Our grand daughter was apparently asleep, which they said combined with hick ups over the weekend show she is getting ready to enter the world.

    Or daughter’s blood pressure rose percipitously after being near normal until now. Her feet hurt because she has the equivalent of carpel tunnel syndrome associated with the pregnancy. Our daughter is a lot like me. She doesn’t worry until she is sicker than a dog. The doctor told her not to do anything strenuous such as vacuming. “Vacuming isn’t strenous” “I’m already cutting back.” She has changed from working an average of twelve hours a day to ten. Her parents on the other hand…

    She is very attractive and looks younger than 30. She knows it, and therefore, she finally really had to be hurting for her to wear some sensible shoes my wife bought her.

    The fetal specialist or whatever his title is said he has no idea of what is happening with the baby. A week ago, he said “you can’t seem to catch a break.”

    Our daughter’s boss believes in psychics and visited one after her mother died. The psychic told her she had an employee who physically was not meant to have this baby. She told the boss our daughter’s name and said she would be more comfortable if she slept on her right side.

    The psychic predicted there would be serious problems, but everything would work out in the end. Thanks to the psychic, our daughter’s boss and co – owner of the operation has been very solicitious of our daughter.

    Our daughter is a therapist who manages a branch office. She has been promoted to two branch offices and can take up to eight weeks paid maternity leave with assurance she can take more if she needs it.

    My wife and I were arrogant fools. We waited 11 years to start our family, and we picked the birth dates in mid July ahead of time so my wife could recover enough to teach school and I could care for the kid before harvest. It worked so well our daughter was born two years later just two days before our son’s birthday.

    Discounting the toxemia which nearly killed my wife and our son, having children was as easy as falling off a log. We had no idea of the little things which can go wrong.

    I was in the delivery room and everyone neglected our son’s monitor because my wife was in trouble. I spotted his problem twice and told the nurses. They and I saw it the third time.

    My wife’s two sisters took me out to eat after the birth, We returned and a nurse told me “we almost lost her.” She had gone into shock. That wasn’t fair. My wife did the work, and I celebrated.

    You can imagine these old memories refresh now. I will be glad when our grand daughter is born. Our daughter is proud that she has only gained ten or twelve pounds.,

  328. Sure, companies have been hiring, but they’ve been creating jobs at a pace that merely keeps up with recent population growth. It’s not enough to also make up for the jobs lost in the crisis.”- CNN.com

    And that from CNN. Here’s what they apparently didn’t say. Middle income wages have dropped almost 10% now since Barry was elected President. And it takes 195K jobs a month to keep up with growth – we’ve done that very few times in a month – yet magically unemployment keeps dropping.

    So it’s actually much worse than CNN wants people to believe. For every 200K that are getting jobs, another 300-400K are dropping out of the work force entirely.

    What’s more, math doesn’t lie. The jobs created are for the most part, lower wage jobs as indicated by the wage depression.

    Welcome to the brave, new world.

  329. The NSA has given a new meaning to the term “Obama phone”

    Get in their faces…and their SIM card

    (both stolen from Twitchy, but damn funny and worth sharing)

  330. “And it takes 195K jobs a month to keep up with growth”

    And that isn’t counting the illegal…err..excuse me…undocumented growth.

  331. ” Let’s either stop talking “war” or proactively identify the group we are at war with.”

    I think we can safely say, at this point, that the identity of the group we are at war with is….everybody.

  332. “PF, R and Thor got exactly what they voted for AND WANTED”

    Precisely. “Not Palin.”

    It definitely could have been worse. And that’s a high bar, higher every day. Fortunately, it’s still a long way from, “President Palin.”

  333. Re: Verizon records:
    “You think the report comes from a foreign news service was mere coincidence?”

    NO! The report should be broadcasted on every internet site that has wide spread readers. Kudos to whoever is out there being a watchdog.

  334. Huck, me and R both called out the lack of a budget, perhaps when you were absent for a few months. But like you said, lets get this thing going.

    I agree about Verizon. But instead of filibusters lets actually review, amend or even repeal the patriot act.

    Tex, I don’t want the country to split up. I do believe anyone that wants to leave has the right to do so.

  335. Thor suggested: “I agree about Verizon. But instead of filibusters lets actually review, amend or even repeal the patriot act.”

    Yes. Yes. Yes. I watched those bastards pass this thing. Only one senator stood up and said, This is Wrong. Don’t Do This: Robert Byrd of West Virginia. The rest of the sheep, who were supposed to be protecting us, just stood there, stupidly being led by the snouts.

    Idiots. Assholes. Traitors. Feckless bastards. Now look what you’ve done!

  336. They have been monitoring and collecting our communications since 9/11. This is just the latest efforts to make it legal to do so. All the providers were told recently that they could not delete any of their clients text messages anymore. It is beyond reprehensible. Every one of those bastards/witches in charge need to experience SHC. Psychopaths all. It is time for justice to reign in this world.

  337. PF, WTF are you talking about. Palin was a VP candidate. And now we now we’ve got that borderline retarded Biden. Real crisis averted. . . 🙄

  338. “Idiots. Assholes. Traitors. Feckless bastards. Now look what you’ve done!”

    Yeah, turned it over to Obama who you helped put in office.

  339. The order itself was another leak, but reporting on another’s report will not generate the wrath of the police state imposed by this pitiful administration.

  340. Pfesser,

    You didn’t join me in the cow tipping at Heffer Helen’s last night. Great fun. 400lbs of chewed bubble gum butt and gut sent gaga.

    They’ve gotten away from trying to argue and are now back to begging the administrator for mercy because I was abusing Helen’s fans. 😆 Maybe Flake Name is Anonymous? She used to beg Rutherford to ban me to parts unknown.

  341. RECOVERY SUMMER V!!!

    1. Annual US GDP growth, adjusted for inflation, has averaged an anemic 2.1% for the 15 full quarters of recovery, versus 5.1% during the same span after the severe 1981–82 recession.

    2. As a result, the economy has yet to return to anywhere near its pre–Great Recession growth trend. If it had, the economy would be $1 trillion bigger today.

    3. This recovery has seen the weakest increase in real disposable income of any of the seven most recent recoveries, according to ITG Market Research.

    4. The average US household has recovered a mere 45% of the wealth lost during the Great Recession, according to the St. Louis Fed.

    5. The economy has 2 million fewer private-sector jobs than it did at the January 2008 peak.

    The country is in the best of hands! Bravo Obama! Bravo!

  342. Harry Reid says we should just all calm down. After all, it’s been GOING ON FOR FUCKING SEVEN YEARS, WITHOUT ANYBODY’S KNOWLEDGE.

    Boy, THAT makes me feel better!

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57588058/nsas-verizon-records-collection-calm-down-reid-says/

    Calm down? What I don’t understand is that there are not people marching down the highways to Washington, carrying pitchforks.

    Rand Paul, you sonofabitch, you better be good. I’m counting on you to be the next candidate.

  343. Raji, I think you missed my point. A UK publication is beyond US subpoena power.

    Tigre, I know that which is why I was agreeing and saying no I did not think it was just a coincidence. I think it was intentional.

    I really do have a problem don’t I – I’ll just hit my head on a brick wall. Better yet just shut up!

    Apparently it was perfectly legal to subpoena the Verizon records as they fell under the business records portion of the Patriotic Act.

  344. This soft police state, headed by the most corrupt administration in modern history, defended only by the completely uninformed or sycophantic cult members, is partly my fault.

    We, as conservatives, didn’t resist the Patriot Act enough from the very beginning. Fear of stink beards and partisan loyalty ruled the day. I bitched loud and clear about the big bank bail outs. Not enough about the Patriot Act. I’m not alone.

    The Ron Paul camp said fuck this. We need to give credit due and take our spanking if guilty or being mum.

    What did we expect….the Patriot Act becomes null and void in case of a corrupt, rogue administration?

    Did we expect fan boy cowards like Rutherford to keep their phony morality AFTER the election of dear leader?

    Poor, poor Rutherford. The only thing he ever really had was a voice. And he sacrificed it for another man. Now look at him. Holed up in a sneeze factory for an apartment….for the most part silent outside a few barbs from MSNBC or a few insincere stabs at criticism. Telling us how things are turning around as he makes burger flipping wages getting barked at on the phone by stranded pussies without the ability to change a fucking tire.

    Everything is in right place. Half the country is helpless, their hands out for bread and distracted by circuses. The emasculated intelligentsia (Thanks Thor) and 100% inept MSM begging to trade liberty for a utterly false sense of security . Top it off with the phantom technology to spy on us or even kill us….

    There all kinds of little ways to say fuck you to an oppressive government and I’m not talking violence. Although I’m quite sure there are people now plotting such things. Me, on the other hand, will teach my kids every single day not to trust any thing that comes out of Nanny’s lips. And if there is a way to foil Nanny that does not put you or other innocents in danger…do it.

  345. War is an appropriate title to this post, Rutherford. But the bigger war is between we, the people, and our ever increasingly oppressive state. Spontaneous human combustion. If we all will it with our whole spirit being, maybe we can light our way to a more promising future. If a few of those fuckers flame on, we might scare up the real change we’ve been hoping for.

  346. Worst of all, our collective experiences from the time of the country’s founding to today warned us to guard against this. It’s beyond pathetic that a majority of the country doesn’t get or care about it, preferring instead to wander the fields chewing their cud.

  347. “PF, serious question: do you think McCain would’ve continued/done the same under TPA?”

    Serious answer: not if he’d lived or his brain damage didn’t get any worse.

  348. ET – I’ll make you a proposal: summarize your post @ Fat Grannies. “wandering the fields chewing their cud” gives me chills.

    Now that I think of it, fits right in with “cow-tipping.”

  349. Fuck Fat Grannies.

    Not like that though.

    “Totally appropriate choices, both times.”

    I don’t agree with this and here’s why. McCain wouldn’t have gotten away with the kind of maneuvers that the Obama regime does. The MSM are not McCain’s and certainly not Palin’s lap dogs. Obama surrounded himself with screwballs and shadows. The Republicans put up a brick but this is big government gone wild writ large. Obama was/is a disaster.

    Both times.

    The only thing that supports your contention in my opinion is that the Democrats can be counted on to vote 58% for something over which they would spend the next 10 years bitching about having been lied to.

  350. And another thing. Obama appointed leftist advisers which McCain would not have done. The president may set the tone, but his/her staff is a powerful influence and it implements policy influenced by its biases.

  351. “instead of filibusters lets actually review, amend or even repeal the patriot act.”

    Let’s do it.

    If the War on Terror is over, then we no longer need to trade our freedom for protection from an enemy we’ve already defeated.

  352. Yeah, I’ll man up and agree that I didn’t kick and yell and scream and holler enough when Bush and congress were enacting the Patriot Act. With hindsight I say shame on him, but I admit that I didn’t then.

    I guess I thought it wouldn’t apply to me, personally, so I didn’t care. After all…I wasn’t doing anything wrong. Why would anyone spy on me?

    I was wrong.

  353. “If the War on Terror is over, then we no longer need to trade our freedom for protection from an enemy we’ve already defeated.”

    Hmmm….Jordan fades back, swoosh, and THAT’S THE GAME!

  354. While I doubt my encrypted email and VPN network are even remotely fool proof….I don’t feel like a fool shelling out for the 60 bucks.

    Dead Rabbit……posting from…let me look….California

  355. And think….only a few months ago Rutherford was doing Leviathan’s bidding….angry that some want to remain well armed.

    Look at what has transpired since then. A script writer couldn’t come up with all these Obama attacks against our freedoms. It’s so pervasive its almost to Obama’s advantage…..where does one even begin to start?

    Does any one here feel almost surreal about all this?

  356. Does any one here feel almost surreal about all this?

    No, it is no longer surreal.. This is the reality I have been preaching for some time. This IS the planned path. I’m just glad folks are coming around to figuring it out, even if they still think the politicians are the decision makers. That’s the surreal part, those that think there is a political solution or pin it all on O. Now, if they’ll only backtrack and see how it all fits together nicely for us to have arrived at this moment.

    Obama was the last hope for me, but he turned out the Trojan horse I called him out here last year. Rutherford said I was crazy and dead wrong. I’ve been wrong plenty and often accused of crazy, but not this time. I had high hopes in 2008. They’ve been horribly dashed since. I kept hoping the Obama that sold me was going to show up, but obviously he was only playing the part that was scripted for him. It adds validity to the ominous background stories that have surfaced about him.

    I have been eyeing this train wreck for some time now. I go from wanting to jump off, to doing whatever I can to derail it. Now I praying for a few divinely-ignited human candles.

  357. You are no prophet. No Jeremiah.. You provide cover with outlandish fantasies. You are the government’s best friend as you taint us all with tin foil hats. Mind control cartoons. 9-11 fantasies that defy physics. Even foolish and dangerous claims about weed that gives nothing but ammo for those who want to keep it illegal. You suck, dude.

  358. The guy that voted for the disaster is glad that folks who didn’t are starting to come around.

    Surreal. 😆

  359. There is an online petition you can sign at this link to repeal the patriot act. If you are uneasy about going to an obviously lefty site, I’m sure there are righties doing the same. Some of you guys and gals probably already have something in your inbox. I would imagine Mark Levin is going ape shit over this. I certainly hope he is.

    http://boldprogressives.org/

  360. “The emasculated intelligentsia (Thanks Thor)”

    Now what did I do?

    I thought I was suppose to be a hack, boring, unimportant nobody. Now I’m part of the intellectual elite? Think I’ll go buy a beret. 🙂

  361. Sorry to question and run off PF.

    Last week my 73 year old neighbor of 12 years had a heart attack. They performed surgery on his neck on Tuesday to clear some blockage so they could perform a triple bypass on Wednesday. Monday his insurance company told him it was time for him to go home. Upon arrival I and another neighbor greeted him, helped him get out of the car then proceeded to helped him up the steps to go inside. Half way up he collapsed and died on the spot. Fuck insurance companies.

  362. “There is an online petition you can sign at this link to repeal the patriot act.”

    There was an online petition to build the Death Star, too.

    Online petitions aren’t going to do anything. The only thing that will is to remove from office any member of congress that won’t support its repeal. Draw the line in the sand.

    Of course, this will never happen because people will soon forget. They will get distracted with war on women, free stuff, death panels, and etc.

    We’re already screwed….

  363. Thor – you are right; I do have something in my inbox ref: repeal of the PATRIOT Act, but there has to be a BEST way to do it. Write your Senators/Congressmen? Call their offices? Demonstrations? What?

  364. On the plus side just think of all the jobs Obama has created. It takes a lot of manpower to wade through all those phone records.

    “Does any one here feel almost surreal about all this?”

    And we thought 1984 was behind us.

  365. The only way to repeal the Patriot Act is through the States. Each State would have to form a grassroots movement to force that State’s Congressmen to vote to repeal the TPA or otherwise be removed from office for not performing their duties according to the will of the people.

    This grassroots movement would have to be a coalition of liberals and conservatives to be effective. It can be done if the “Verizon Records” leak stays on the fore front of MSM. The Obama administration will try to come up with a distraction to keep this from happening but add this to the ongoing IRS scandal plus the AP scandal, et al, the tipping point may have been reached.

  366. There was an online petition to build the Death Star, too.

    I’m on board. As long as they promise my part of the death taxes are aimed straight at Washington D.C..and take out that White House looking thing first.

    😆 Good one, Huck. 😆

  367. Sen. Paul to Introduce Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013

    Jun 6, 2013
    WASHINGTON, D.C. – Sen. Rand Paul today announced he will introduce the Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013, which ensures the Constitutional protections of the Fourth Amendment are not violated by any government entity.

    “The revelation that the NSA has secretly seized the call records of millions of Americans, without probable cause, represents an outrageous abuse of power and a violation of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. I have long argued that Congress must do more to restrict the Executive’s expansive law enforcement powers to seize private records of law-abiding Americans that are held by a third-party,” Sen. Paul said. “When the Senate rushed through a last-minute extension of the FISA Amendments Act late last year, I insisted on a vote on my amendment (SA 3436) to require stronger protections on business records and prohibiting the kind of data-mining this case has revealed. Just last month, I introduced S.1037, the Fourth Amendment Preservation and Protection Act, which would provide exactly the kind of protections that, if enacted, could have prevented these abuses and stopped these increasingly frequent violations of every American’s constitutional rights.

    “The bill restores our Constitutional rights and declares that the Fourth Amendment shall not be construed to allow any agency of the United States government to search the phone records of Americans without a warrant based on probable cause.”

    I’m in.

  368. Here’s a shocka. I’m agreeing with Raji.

    I’m a big believer in original intent. And my readings indicate to me clearly our Founders believed in the concept of a weaker central government – contrary to the self-serving pricks and twats running the place now, who have managed over the last 60 years to ordain themselves as princes and princesses with King Obama and Queen Wookie as head. I wouldn’t trust Barack Obama, Eric Holder or Queen Chewbacca any further than I can toss Shelly Antoinette’s fat booty.

    One state at a time…and I think that all but the bluest states would follow in line in short order and even the blue states might surprise me.

    ——–

    Now Thor, you can see why millions of us fear exactly what the federal government you so much a supporter, capable of facilitating.

    The Patriot Act sounded good in theory – and I’m reasonably sure the initial intent done with our country’s interests in mind. It was going to give us the tools to fight terrorism for our safety. But you give these power brokers and inch and they’ll take a mile because most of them aren’t terribly bright and megalomaniacs to boot, holding you and me to rules they don’t have to abide by.

    Instead of fighting terrorism, some pretty nefarious folk dictated themselves ruler and very quickly have infringed upon the liberties of 99% of the people in this country. And I can assure you that it was done purposely. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It’s all but the best of men’s nature.

    And you want to give the same questionable folk the power to decide the administration of our health care. You’re a fool if you don’t recognize what that leads to – and yes, death panels will be a part of the equation – in the name of what’s “good for the nation.”

  369. Pfesser,

    You might be on to something with this Rand Paul. He strikes me as a little brighter than the average political hack on Capitol Hill.

    I would like to see Paul and my Senator Tom Coburn joined as team to run the damn country. At least they appear to be honest and bright.

  370. re: Rand Paul. Yep, I’d say he’s bright, OK…He’s an ophthalmologist. Only the very top of the class gets into ophth residency.

    Docs are going to have to get into politics. This business of having the bottom of the intellectual barrel run the whole country has to stop.

  371. Docs are going to have to get into politics. This business of having the bottom of the intellectual barrel run the whole country has to stop.

    Agreed. Coburn’s a doc too. And we need more engineers, more military, more honest execs not tied to Wall Street but energy and manufacturing. Here’s a Dim I could get on board with:

    John Hofmeister – Former CEO of Shell Oil. He’s the one that had to nicely keep correcting the insufferably stupid Maxine Waters during those blame assessment Energy hearings. Brilliant man. Of course, old John called Barack Obama incompetent and lent his support to Romney in the last election though he supported Obama in 2008, so that rules John out with 51% of the low information country.

    Did you watch that feministic, man hatin’, disease infested misandry on display hearing the other day about all the supposed ‘sexual abuse’ going on in the military? Baloney. 99% of those guys aren’t sexual predators of any sort. They take some rotten eggs and instead of punishing the perpetrators, make it systemically a problem with the military and all men are predators. They did the same shit 30 years ago in Corporate America. It was putrid.

    This bra burning demagogue Kirsten Gillibrand? What a puke – Fat Granny’s material out of the Lori mold.

    Been reading all these false charges of rape on college campuses where men are having to prove their innocence and aren’t allowed on campus until they do? Duke LaCrosse anyone? Even women are noticing and stepping up to say bullshit to the politically correct man haters. It’s time to stomp this political correctness in the dirt.

  372. A Black Muslim friend had a fight with a woman and he called her a “fat pig.” She charged him with rape, and he said he was innocent. I believed him. They busted him to Airman basic and put him in the stockade.

    I transferred to a new base before the trial, so I don’t know what happened. His lawyer thought he had a good case.

    , We often greeted him as he and the prisoners marched for excercise and washed base fire engines.

    A word of warning. Don’t call the fat grannies “fat pigs” My friend learned the hard way. Of course using that term with the grannies is more a statement of fact than insult.

  373. Good morning Mr. President. Hi Al B.

    Michele Malkin wrote an article describing the difference between Bush’s spying and Obama’s. The Bush administration did not focus on domestic messages completely within the country.

  374. I know about the college PC shit. About twenty years ago a gal claimed rape at Marshall Univ in WV. The student editor of the school newspaper got in hot water by identifying her by name. His rationale: you identified the alleged perp by name, who – by law – is “innocent until proven guilty.” By extension, the accuser must be assumed either, 1)mistaken or 2)lying – until a trial says one way or the other.

    So, if you give him the benefit of the doubt and deprive her of it, then why is it ok to publish his name and not hers?

    I took up the editor’s cause in the local and state papers; I was the only one who wrote in his favor. Everybody kept talking about the “victim.” My response: What victim? It hasn’t been established that she’s a victim or that the accused is the perp. The ed. is doing a GREAT job!

    Pissed some people off. That’s where we are alike, Tex. It’s our job. LOL.

  375. thor is probably the only person here to find the link I provided to Sami/Swedish singer Sofia Jannok, so he has heard her music..

    A critic wrote that Jannok though only 31 is not an etherial version of Bjork. She is a woman of steel. Her latest album is a “call to arms.”

    She interrupts her concerts with “Enough of that. Let’s talk politics.”
    Her concern is indigenious rights and the discrimination of the Swedish government. She refers to the “regime” as Rush does and the “colonial power” Jannok criticizes the news media and urges her audience to pay attention and vote.

    Since our government is treating us like non-citizens, it may be time for Sofia to tour here.

  376. Hey Hey, Brother “R”,

    How’s that $4.70 a gallon gasoline in this dynamite economy of Summer Recover V doing ya? 😉 There’s Thor’s stupendous EPA at work for all you Obama rubes. All’s well!!!

    CHICAGO (CBS) – Chicago area gas prices jumped 25 cents at some stations in one day this week, thanks to a double-whammy of refinery problems and the switchover to summer blend gasoline.

    WBBM Newsradio’s John Cody reports, with a gallon of regular unleaded now going for an average of $4.70 per gallon, Chicago’s gas prices are even higher than Hawaii’s.

    http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/06/06/refinery-issues-summer-blend-send-gas-prices-soaring/

    See that ‘summer blend’ of gasonline, “R”? A total crock that does about zero for the environment and smacks your faces with another 50-75¢ per gallon. Shazamm! Wait until they slap a carbon tax on you and you’re still choking on the smog at $6.50 a gallon while you freeze to death. 😈

    You’ll be ready to nominate Obama in 2016 for King of the World.

  377. Every year, the Justice Department gives Congress a tally of the classified wiretap orders sought and issued in terrorist and spy cases – it was 1,789 last year. At the same time, it reports the number of demands for “business records” in such cases, issued under Section 215 of the USA Patriot Act. And while the number of such orders has generally grown over the years, it has always managed to stay relatively low. In 2011, it was 205. There were 96 orders in 2010, and only 21 in 2009.
    Thanks to the Guardian’s scoop, we now know definitively just how misleading these numbers are. You see, while the feds are required to disclose the number of orders they apply for and receive (almost always the same number, by the way), they aren’t required to say how many people are targeted in each order. So a single order issued to Verizon Business Solutions in April covered metadata for every phone call made by every customer. That’s from one order out of what will probably be about 200 reported in next year’s numbers.

    http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/nsa-numbers/

    As if news of the National Security Agency collecting phone records on millions of Americans wasn’t enough, a new report reveals that the NSA and FBI are directly tapped into central servers at nine U.S. internet firms, in order to provide constant monitoring of audio, video, photos, emails and documents as well as connection logs.

  378. ” @ #424 – way to paint a picture, Tigre.”

    Muffy, thanks but it’s right there in from of me.

    PF, sorry. I ain’t commenting at the Fat Nags blog. I loathe those dimwits and see that they spend their time tracking people. The one time I did comment, a resident douche made statement that strongly indicated I was “investigated.” In fact, I think Poolman participates at that level. I still haven’t any idea why you and others around here waste your time with such a group of dumb-fucks.

    Thor, an online petition? Really? How about I just agree to turn myself in to you Stalinist fucks.

    What I just don’t get is why guys like Rutherford and Thor continue to so naively defend Obama — going to so far as to claim he has done something to salvage the economy, health care system, foreign affairs etc.. No matter how frequently they are corrected, they fall back on the most ignorant analysis that can only pass muster with the deluded and politically illiterate bottom feeding comrades on the left. Both of them should be aghast. Yet they continue to hold this administration to no standards at all — merely giving an “awe shucks — we’re a little disappointed in the lack of leadership.” Fuck! It’s just painful to read them anymore because I see that it represent the typical lefty that can’t divorce their Obama cheer leading from the serious issues that tearing us down.

    You know, traditional liberalism was anti authoritarian. The modern MSNBC liberal like Thor and R are just statists. Seriously. Tune in and watch 30 minutes any given day. They find it gratifying? It’s fucking creepy.

    Maybe all that’s going on is a wake up call for the halcyonic Obama cult. But given the intellectual stubbornness I’ve seen from the self-satisfied left, there’s no hope for them. They truly “don’t get it” — and most discouragingly it’s a choice.

  379. You ignorant jackasses from the Cult of Obama that scan this board and are too gutless to now validate your foolishness, who voted for Obama a second time and inflicted this jackbooted, incompetent fool on us, are as guilty as he is as far as I’m concerned. You have aided and abetted the thumbing the nose at both the Constitution and the rule of law and many of you useful idiots are still making excuse for failure.

    Were you really so ignorant to believe an abysmally failed first term was going to lead to really strong management in the second term? If you had any shame, you’d apologize to all of us supposed knuckle draggers who called Obama an unqualified farce in 2008 and have been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt right.

    And Rutherford and Thor, save us your sanctimonious hand-wringing now that you have no more reelection battles to fight.

    Let It Burn

  380. And by the way, Rabbit was publishing while I was typing. There was no coordinated effort. Just two guys calling all you Obama losers on your bullshit.

    Damn straight, Rabbit.

  381. The Patriot Act sounded good in theory – and I’m reasonably sure the initial intent done with our country’s interests in mind.

    It is Orwellian double speak. It was written years in advance of 9/11 in anticipation of just such a cataclysmic event in order to implement it. Like I said earlier, this has been a long time in the works.

  382. In fact, I think Poolman participates at that level.

    In fact? Paranoid much? Sorry. No, I have my own sources. I’ve basically written M&H off, though I do find someone over there by name of Chris that seems to bring up the pertinent issues. I drop in occasionally to stir the water is all.

  383. Online petitions are simply a way of targeting a large volume of emails and raising money to fight a certain issue, and as for going after certain congress members, that’s what these sights usually do. That’s why I suggested you might want to use a rightie sight instead. If you don’t think it’s worth the effort, then perhaps make a phone call instead. If you share ET’s well founded paranoia, use a disposable cell phone and call from a train station.

    The following is an excellent source for contacting any senator in the nation.

    http://www.theorator.com/senate.html

    “Good morning Mr. President. Hi Al B.” – James

    LOL. That was both funny and cryptic. Pure James.

  384. “In fact? Paranoid much? Sorry. No, I have my own sources.”

    I am referring to some time way back when I understood you were really just one of them apparently enthralled with mindless old-lady bridge table chatter. 😆

  385. “Nobody’s listening to Jackie Calmes’ phone calls. We’d have to go to a judge.” – Barack Obama

    Too bad James Rosen wasn’t around to ask a follow-up question….

  386. Asking a judge is supposed to bring us comfort in our privacy? How many sandbags do the Dims have in the courts wearing black robes? That’s like asking us to trust college professors that they’re not indoctrinating the kids with leftist thought.

    I’ll bet judges line up outside the Oval Office to volunteer…

  387. My son’s platelets were up to 58 today! Just two thousand below being allowed to rough house. Great improvement. At a 100, they deem the disease gone. He was at a 7 at one point. I think maybe the treatment is gonna work this time.

  388. Well yes Tigre it is vitriol and hyperbole. The right is so eager to find an Obama Watergate that they’ve had to push three Obama scandals just to equal one Nixon scandal.

    Darrell Issa stated some time ago some outlandish number of hearings he wanted to pursue. The dude would clearly rather prosecute than legislate. And yes he’s in oversight. I get that. But the dude takes it to a whole new level. After calling Jay Carney a liar Issa was told by none other than Boehner to back off.

    When reasonable people raise reasonable issues folks pay attention. When drama queens do it they are met with skepticism. Any shoulder shrugging you get now is your own fault as the verbal hand grenades you’ve been throwing the past four years have damaged your credibility.

  389. BTW some lefty on TV — I don’t remember who — raised a valid point. Those IRS line dancers are getting notoriety they don’t deserve. They were participating in a morale building session similar to what goes on at companies all over the world. They would probably have preferred to be at home. Now they’re being ridiculed when it wasn’t their decision to waste all that money.

  390. This snooping kind of gives “Yes we can” a whole new meaning.

    By golly I guess you can!

    “Good morning Mr. President.” 😆 Good one, James.

    I think the president is doing a great job. The economy is doing good. Millions and billions of people still have jobs. Did he not also give us free health care as well? AND he also passed Lilly Ledbetter because he is all for equal pay for women. And lots of other things also. Oh, he saved GM! And how about that he killed Osama Bin Laden and also all the, um, the other….ones. And everything.

    The Repugs on the other hand are just doing selective outrage and stuff. And they are sooooooooooooooooooooo racist X infinity. Helloooo! Just get over it that we have a black for president!

  391. The IRS isn’t a publicly held company where shareholders vote, rube. This is like paying the county assessor to attend a wine tasting.

    That’s my money they are wasting.

    But since you think the IRS should be treated like a publicly held company, as shareholder, I vote we fire the entire IRS ensemble who participated in the retreat.

    Anyone else here want to cast their vote as shareholders what we should do with the IRS line dancers?

    Why don’t we put that to a vote of the American people, “R”? Want to bet the line dancers are looking for new jobs at the end of the election?

  392. “Any shoulder shrugging you get now is your own fault as the verbal hand grenades you’ve been throwing the past four years have damaged your credibility.”

    The fucking nerve….

    Barack Obama calls out Fox News in public and then secretly spies on 1 of its reporters and you have the balls to talk about verbal hand grenades and damaged credibility?

    The left demonizes the Tea Party while the IRS delays their legal applications and you want to come around here and spout off about verbal hand grenades and damaged credibility?

    Rutherford says we have all lost credibility because we have had the nerve to call out the Obama administration on its dozen (in the literal sense…and not Joe Biden literal, but dictionary literal) scandals. Meanwhile, Barack Obama and his supporters…Rutherford included…have not lost an ounce of credibility through the last 4 years. They are the rational ones, while we are the tin foil hat wearing freaks.

  393. Barack Obama tells the country to sharpen its elbows and get into the faces of his enemies…and the country obeys that command.

    Then when we catch them doing it…and have the fucking nerve to say something about it…we lose credibility because we are launching verbal hand grenades at poor little Barry.

    That might be funny if it wasn’t so maddening.

  394. Rutherford’s head outgrew the tinfoil years ago. Now his halo, like Obama’s, is the lip of 3lbs. coffee can his mother placed there in high school.

    Gang, you got to remember this is no new phenomenon. I guarantee in 1998, Rutherford and Thor were going on “it’s just about sex” and Ken Starr was a criminal.

    Got to win. Cheat if we have to like they do. Then we can start ignoring the rule of law and this time, making their lives miserable in every way we can think of. Use the IRS to start auditing – bonuses for every dollar they can rip from a lib’s grasp. Use the military to bust them up a little. I guarantee the military would approve.

    We can start by tearing down and stripping the funds from every form of public education, including the colleges and rebuilding them from the ground up. Kick everyone of those POS to the curb and rehire.

    And absolutely gut D.C..

    But most importantly, treat them like the enemy and have the balls to do it.

  395. Let’s remind Rutherford of those verbal hand grenades….

    Allowing illegal weapons to flow into a foreign country that end up being used in countless murders.

    Refusing to prosecute voter intimidation by racist militant groups.

    Willfully lying to the American public about the nature of a terrorist attack.

    Marginalizing an individual media firm.

    Spying on reporters.

    Threatening journalists.

    Using federal agencies to intimidate and deter opposition movements.

    Logging every American phone call.

    Logging every American Google search/email/etc.

    Drone killing foreign civilians.

    Anal probing detainees.

    And Rutherford’s response to all of that?…”Gee, some of that is terrible. But don’t get too worked up over it, folks, or you’ll lose all of your credibility. Especially if people start calling people that lie ‘liars'”

    And what of the credibility of the liars, Rutherford? When does Jay Carney…or Barack Obama…lose their credibility?

  396. “My son’s platelets were up to 58 today! Just two thousand below being allowed to rough house. Great improvement. At a 100, they deem the disease gone. He was at a 7 at one point. I think maybe the treatment is gonna work this time.”

    Good. Cross your fingers. With any luck, this time next year it will just be a scary memory.

    And not to forget James – how are things going with your daughter?

  397. Oh look. The State Dept. turned over 97 of those documents that Congress has had for months to the Congress that didn’t actually have them until today when the State dept. released them.

    “Psaki says most documents already are public.”

    “Most are public…” But here are 97 more we just forget to give you.

    But that’s all…really…you can trust us….

    Would we lie?

  398. I think the most insulting part of this “damaged credibility” thing is that it suggests that the left EVER thought we had any to begin with.

  399. Probably old news but evidently the former head of the EPA created an email account with a false name on which to conduct official EPA business and avoid ever having to turn over the contents (The hypocrisy there is amazing in itself!).

    But that isn’t the crazy part.

    The crazy part is…the fake name won an award!…

    …for ethics.

    And yet we have damaged our credibility.

  400. “Any shoulder shrugging you get now is your own fault as the verbal hand grenades you’ve been throwing the past four years have damaged your credibility.” -R

    LOL!

  401. Oh, I get it. R is trying to be ironic given Obama’s predicament. 😆

    *Tigre shrugs shoulders along with the rest of the country, including liberal media*

    I honestly can’t believe you typed that. . . well, assuming you’re sober.

  402. There aint shit going on here and hasn’t been for a long time.

    Since Rutherford has quit even pretending like he gives a shit while his entire blog has become the “shoulder shrug” he says we all deserve …you guys just have to play my drinking game……put a random politically charged word or phrase in this site’s search engine and read Rutherford blogs from what feels like 100 years ago. HILARIOUS!!!!

    I put in “waterboarding” and got this gem.

    https://rutherfordl.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/diplomacy-and-torture/

  403. “And yes boys the economy is improving — consumer confidence rising, new homes rising — two strong indicators.” -R

    Unemployment rate if labor participation was the same as Feb 2009: 11.2%.

  404. On MSNBC, Martin Bashir said that “IRS” is a new way of saying “n****r.” The latest way of racially “attacking the president.”

    Sounds credible.

  405. And the traditional unemployment meter went up .1% today.

    I actually saw a defense of that increase which said it was a good indicator because it shows more people are confident enough to actually look for work.

  406. People like the Tea Party kind of asked for being targeted…because they submitted applications…and launched verbal hand grenades…and, of course, were racists.

    The real victims are those poor IRS people who got paid to line dance for a video.

  407. They asked for their donor lists to be given to their opposition for the same reasons too.

    Most groups targeted by IRS had annual budgets of less than $10k.

  408. I am surprised Rutherford didn’t put some Twitter blame onto the Tea Party for the Santa Monica shooting while Obama was there.

  409. “They asked for their donor lists to be given to their opposition for the same reasons too.”

    This just can’t be true.

    I don’t believe the Tea Party groups were asked for their donor lists to the opposition.

    After all…Obama for America got its application rushed through and they won’t even give their donor list to their allies.

    Someone is probably lying since…you know…they weren’t under oath

  410. “I think the most insulting part of this “damaged credibility” thing is that it suggests that the left EVER thought we had any to begin with.”

    Bingo! My point exactly. When you (generic you) come out of the gate calling the man a Marxist and probably a Kenyan one at that you start with ZERO cred. From 1/20/09 on, right extremists and drama queens controlled the debate and made it impossible to have reasoned debate.

    Some, like Tex, were just itching for payback after 8 years of Bush bashing. Others had other reasons. Way too few had measured criticism.

    So yes exactly Huck — cred was a problem from day 1.

  411. “When you (generic you) come out of the gate calling the man a Marxist and probably a Kenyan one at that you start with ZERO cred.”

    Thank you for exposing the flaw in your rhetoric.

    How can we damage what you say we never had?

    You cannot defend any 1 of the scandals I listed…but it doesn’t matter because some people asked for Obama’s birth certificate.

  412. All be damned. Can’t and won’t address Obama and his administration’s actions because [the royal] we don’t have credibility with the left. And you talk about “reasoned debate?” 😆 😆 Priceless.

  413. rutherford @474 Well yes Tigre it is vitriol and hyperbole. The right is so eager to find an Obama Watergate that they’ve had to push three Obama scandals just to equal one Nixon scandal.

    Rutherford, “scandal gate” is no longer an issue of right or left. It is a situation where agencies supposedly under the control of the Executive branch have run amuck. These agencies know there is no oversight and they are creating their own little power houses. At least with the Nixon scandal we had someone to blame. How can you blame someone like Obama who wakes up in the morning to hear the latest scandal along with the rest of America? (sarcasm intended in case you missed my point).

  414. From 1/20/09 on, right extremists and drama queens controlled the debate and made it impossible to have reasoned debate.

    Oh, I see. When we were treated to Styrofoam columns of Olympus and promises halving the annual deficit within three years and stopping the rising tides, replete with millions genuflecting to their spiritual leader and man god, many believing the gas and rent now free, everything would have been so excellent.

    Buddy, have you forgotten for a time in 2009, you didn’t need one person here’s support. Not one. Super majority of Dims. And we were treated to those rousing successes of a stimulus package of $862 billion plus interest that went to Obama’s campaign donors instead of the shovel ready jobs, and Obamacare.

    Some, like Tex, were just itching for payback after 8 years of Bush bashing. Others had other reasons. Way too few had measured criticism.

    Why, why there’s been no measured criticism at all in the Shrug Blog the last five years of Dear Leader Obama. Boy, you nailed my ass on that one. 😯

  415. I actually saw a defense of that increase which said it was a good indicator because it shows more people are confident enough to actually look for work.

    😆 😆

    Thor must have been traveling around the blogosphere today. All we need is Lunkhead’s insight and everything would become clearer to us lessers.

    Huck, you have been on a roll lately.

    There will come a day that I finally get Rutherford to admit that Obama has become an embarrassment to him and a millstone around his personal neck. But it will take another three years and some cataclysmic event I predict before we get there.

    But there will never come a day that Obama’s approval rating drops below 40%, even if America collapses.

    There is simply no truth in most of his supporters.

  416. A Republican who gets it: Paul – “Retrieving California is the key to making the Republican party relevant again.”

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/7/retrieving-california-is-the-key-to-the-future/

    “I gave a speech on the future of our party and our country. Central themes of the speech included some of the lessons that I learned and shared in Silicon Valley about respecting privacy and the entire Constitution. In addition, I discussed my continued observation that we need to be a party of inclusion — a party that looks more like America.”

    Right on, Brother! My guess is that this guy will be the next presidential nominee.

    Dup @ Fat Grannies

  417. The debate/discussion/truth is not the credibility of either side but the actions and policies that have rolled out.
    Rutherford don’t worry about people you feel are so beneath you and yours in their pity criticisms of your President.
    Instead I’d ask you to come up with some of your own credibility and INTEGRITY and point out that Mr. Hope& Change,transparency,has been a complete failure.
    You actually do that and your rulings on others cree will be marginally credible.

  418. “There will come a day that I finally get Rutherford to admit that Obama has become an embarrassment to him and a millstone around his personal neck.”

    That day will never, ever, ever come. The construct set up by R and his “ilk” (always hated that) won’t allow it. It is truly a cult. They will forever deny he’s done anything wrong — always a victim of circumstance — those that allege otherwise in the wrong or racist or some other “ist.” He will always lie to himself about his own good intentions and the right’s bad intentions to find absolution.

    Obama is unaccountable because they meant well when they voted for him. HE is infallible. And that is precisely why this administration did what it did, and will keep doing it with perceived impunity. The victim will always have “deserved it.”

    The founding fathers are spinning in their graves.

    Rutherford shrugs. . .

    I wonder what c**nt Palin’s up to?

  419. I agree with Ragi, El Tigre, Alfie and others. This is worse than having someone to blame. Obama and his staff claim to be as ignorant as we the public. Therefore rogue elements of the government are free to do what they want.

    Obama’s protestations mean nothing because he has little control.

    Mother Jones, a liberal publication, wrote that it is time for liberals and conservatives to forget their differences for a while and unite against a common enemy..

  420. “Obama’s protestations mean nothing because he has little control.”

    Not true. He has control; at best, he chooses not to exercise it since it suits his purposes.

    I believe he also has knowledge.

    What Obama lacks is credibility.

  421. Since we now know that we’re all being monitored, this morning my buddies and I have been exchanging email with code words like Christian jihadist, Kenyan birth certificate, Muslim 9/11 Obama, Biden is a fag, double secret Tea Party accountant, African Lying. 😆

    I expect any day to my front door kicked in by a bunch of Chicago goon squad types wearing IRS and NSA badges.

    I hope about 200MM Americans will join me mocking these creeps unmercifully.

  422. I wonder what c**nt Palin’s up to?

    ** GUFFAW **

    I figured things were getting desperate enough around here for some good news, any day we are due a Palin Derangement Syndrome post.

  423. I cannot believe how some of the spin is being spun on the NSA matter. The proponents of the practice who actually fall on both ends of the political spectrum are really trying to spin how it is legal,for our own good and all in all a good idea that just needs some oversight. My head almost exploded reading one piece @ Foreign Policy online. The practice has morphed so far beyond what it was meant to be. It is an issue all Americans should get involved in.

  424. IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776

    The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

    For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

    He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

    In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

    Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

  425. I wonder what the only credible sources, Chaz Maddow and his sister Lil’ Chrissy Hayes, have to say about all the hyperbole and vitriol. . . from the left.

    R, have you slept off your hangover yet? You were really knocking them back last night. I am glad someone disabled your twitter. Wait until you see what you said here. . . 😯

  426. Rutherford is full of crap with this whole credibility issue anyway.

    He says we lost it way back when we started calling Obama a Kenyan and a socialist.

    That’s bullshit.

    Before Obama was ever elected, Rutherford was saying we lost credibility because McCain selected Palin as a running mate.

    Before that we lost credibility because McCain called his wife a cunt.

    And before that it was Cindy McCains cookies.

    Rutherford NEVER gave an ounce of credibility to anyone who wasn’t on the side of Barack Obama. He didn’t even give the Clintons any during the 2008 primary season.

    And that’s fine. That’s how this game is played. I just want him to be honest about it.

  427. And on an absolutely unrelated note and offered in no way to be a bang on Obama as it is purely an issue for all to care about and for both dove and hawk to think on.
    As of 6 June the USN had only 4, FOUR, F-O-U-R of its aircraft carriers deployed. Two in actual theater (relatively the same area btw) and two underway. I would put it to the reader that the two “underway” are actually moving to rotate out the 2 in theater and of note are underway in their respective oceans,one in the Atlantic and one in the Pacific.
    3 are non-deployable and the remaining three are in home port,btw it takes up to 90 days to deploy a carrier out of port.
    I’m not a proponent of the Ford class carrier but clearly 10 of anything doesn’t work either. I don’t know what the answer is but the both the nation and its Navy have a problem.

  428. re #5O8

    It is hard to imagine that my respect for you could have dropped lower, but alas, you say something like that and it plummets that much more.

    Credibility? When have you had any credibility? You’ve lied about the economy, Obamacare, immigration, transparency, etc, etc, etc.

  429. Collection on a U.S. person without a warrant is illegal. Even to collect on a foreign individual using a U.S. business account, like gmail, etc, requires FISA authorization. This is specific to the individual–it can’t be a blanket drag net, so this PRISM–which I’ve never heard of–smacks in the face of about everything we’ve ever been taught about collection and sensitivities towards U.S. persons.

    Apparently, there are legal opinions from within the FISA courts that were critical of how Obama was pursuing the Patriot Act 7O2 actions, specifically stating that they ran in contravention of the 4th Amendment.

    This smells dirty as hell and I’m frankly glad that I’m not involved in any way because whoever is, is likely going to jail.

    This Operation PRISM makes Watergate look like childs play. It is one thing to cover up a crime, but it is entirely another to institute a secret policy that violates several Constitutional amendments.

  430. Re 508. Rutherford, I wrote long before the last election that Obama was a socialist, not only by his statements and deeds but because he joined the Socialist New Party when he was in llinonois.

    I also wrote that his official membership was in dispute since the party didn’t keep detailed records. However, one form existed with his name on it. Obama was closely associated with the party.

    You didn’t call me crazy or throw a name at me. Cudos for that– one reason I respect you as a person. You wrote that it was interesting and you would get back to me. Did you find anything?

    You are a good man, but your political judgement is in disrepute Leave the twilight zone and come into the light. You are almost there.

    I agree with gorrilla about operation Prism.

  431. Man, I can only hope Dear Leader and the Brownshirts have a direct monitor at Fat Grannies – it is probably Lori. Zero has stepped in so deep this time, the only “Turning Texas Blue” she’s going to experience is when the collective hand of pissed off squeezes the life out of that hag and her Obama posters. Hopefully, they’ll hang her in effigy.

    I’ve laid some beautiful tirades over there for Jug Ear to enjoy and insulted his foot soldiers to boot. Talk about killing two birds with one stone. I knew there was some divine purpose for me being there. 😛

    Thor should be along soon to accuse BushMcChimpyHitler and Darth Cheney of setting it up or doing it first. Something to justify the Obama/Jarrett/Antoinette tyranny.

    Pull out the Bongos and make like the Sudan.

  432. The timeline with the lying hack Cutter:

    May 2009 – Cutter moves to White House from Treasury Department

    January 2010 – Citizens United is handed down; Democrats are hysterical

    March 2010 – IRS begins targeting Tea Party and other conservative groups

    April 2010 – Cutter assigned to sell health care reform; if meetings with Shulman didn’t occur before, presumably they did so afterwards.

    Everyone understood each other just fine.

    Obama’s proven liar and hack campaign manager attends meetings with the IRS? Real institutional independence there Carney, you paid liar.

  433. Well, I had to drop another load over at Margarets. And though the explanation well above nag paygrade and they won’t get it, it always does my heart good to refer to Margaret’s Nags as insufferably dumb.

    That much they do understand. 😀

  434. Back in 2009 I had a post looking back on a poem I did a report on once. The recent current events reminded me of it. The Unknown Citizen by Auden. Look in2 it I think people will find it amusing,chilling,thought provoking at the least via the lens of our present politics.

  435. Alfie, thanks for posting. I found it thought provoking, chilling but not so amusing. Are we a country of unknown citizens?

  436. Are we a country of unknown citizens?

    Raji,

    Well known and sought citizens a part of every four years; insignificant the rest. For six months out of 48 we are pandering to and bought, groveled to and stroked. The other 42 months we are out of sight and out of mind.

    And the fault lies not with our masters but with us.

  437. re: phone records. Is it possible that this incomprehensible abuse of power will finally wake up enough Americans to start rolling back this increasingly-totalitarian government? I gotta tell you, Tex, I am in awe of the bovine nags at FGs. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but their yawning reaction to Verizon-gate leaves me standing with my mouth open. Surely nobody is that stupid. Nobody. It takes a certain number of brain cells to just be able to breathe. They don’t seem to even have those.

  438. “Is it possible that this incomprehensible abuse of power will finally wake up enough Americans to start rolling back this increasingly-totalitarian government?”

    Nope

  439. Pfesser,

    I’m afraid and it makes me sick to say this (not because it is Huck), Huck is right. I’m afraid nothing but their own demise will wake the already dead of blue America.

    Do you remember the schmucks in the movie Independence Day waving their posters and flags on top of that highrise in Los Angeles when the Alien Ships started to open up the weaponry? And the more the weapon pushed open, the louder the schmucks cheered while staring at the gaping maw and bright lights…

    And then the weapon went off?

    Consider about 40% of America, and a much higher percentage than that at Bovine Inc., are the cheering squads of dolts staring at the alien weapon on top of the highrise.

    And someday, ‘Times Up.’

  440. My response doesn’t really have anything to do with blue or red America, but America, in general.

    I don’t think the American public has the will to force this to be overturned, and I know damn well that Congress doesn’t have the will to do it on its own.

    We should already be seeing mass protests in the streets…and we aren’t seeing anything but worthless Internet outrage. I should be out putting political mobilization theories I have studied into practice and organizing rallies. Instead I am trying to get through day by day …and, truth be told, I am a little apprehensive to risk what little I have and might yet have by taking on Big Brother.

    I’m not doing what I should be doing and neither is anyone else. And that’s why this thing is here to stay.

  441. While this was entirely NOT Tigre’s point, the Nathan Thurm video does remind me of the long lost days when SNL had truly original and funny characters.

  442. More to the point, is there not some small solace in the fact that our total lack of privacy is the topic du jour and not some secret that can only be openly discussed at risk of imprisonment or worse?

    Ladies and Gentlemen, you may not like the fact that all your emails and phone conversations can be accessed by the government (I certainly don’t) but it is still uniquely American that we can know this and discuss this and yes, despite Huck’s apprehension, potentially change this.

  443. “…it is still uniquely American that we can know this…”

    We know it because of a leak…to a foreign paper…who has already been threatened with prosecution if it is ever discovered who it is.

    Meanwhile, reporters are being accused of crimes because they report on other information they get from other leaks.

    And we don’t discuss it openly. We discuss it on an Internet blog where we all (but you) comment anonymously because we are all afraid of what might happen to us if the wrong people found out our true ideologies.

    I know what you’re saying…we’re more free than a lot of people.

    But you know what I’m saying, too….we’re not as free as we should be.

    This isn’t what the Framers had in mind.

  444. While this was entirely NOT Tigre’s point, the Nathan Thurm video does remind me of the long lost days when SNL had truly original and funny characters.

    Thought the same thing, Rutherford. Unfortunately, we are dating ourselves.

    I haven’t watched SNL in years and I would not piss on Tina Fey if she were on fire – but there was a time for about a decade that SNL was the funniest thing on TV.

  445. Huck,

    Tomorrow, I will be in court to fight what I believe is absolute B.S. of small town Oklahoma taking advantage of the citizenry, from bullying cops and courts, to nefarious means of revenue generation. They can do this because we lay down like sheep.

    I bring this up only to note that there are some of us who never disengaged from the battle and have been warning of this for years that government long ago overstepped its authority in many capacities – that absolute power corrupts. You’re right, it is not a red state or blue state issue and that is not what I meant to insinuate in my answer to Pfesser.

    Though not a privacy issue, there are some of us that are fed up with this behemoth of government, which has forgotten it works for us and that we pay their salaries. I’m even more fed up being bullied by the people whose salaries I have paid.

    My intent to note was that a large part of America actually approves of these kind of actions by our government, not realizing the history of they came for the Jews first…

  446. “not realizing the history of they came for the Jews first…”

    Tex, probably the most poignant statement you have ever made.

  447. As you know our daughter has been enduring a worrisome pregnancy. It was not a happy time because one misfortune piled on top of another, and when the specialist said he didn’t know what was happening, we worried a little more. Last week our daughter was considered to be at risk, and two doctors were checking her every other day.

    At 4Am this morning, our grand daughter decided it was time to be born. She came so fast there was no time for an eipedural. She was born a few minutes ago and is now being checked for any risky conditions.

    Our son -in law was barely coherent. My wife woke about six with a feeling something was happening.

    Hooray!!!

  448. “She was born a few minutes ago and is now being checked for any risky conditions”

    That is awesome. Seriously, awesome. Congratulations to the James family.

    What a bad ass grandpa the lad will have too! The silent assassin.

    Oh and James…don’t get too excited…new borns can hardly open their eyes…..so it doesn’t mean his Sami genes are dominentant.

    Congrats again.

  449. “I don’t think the American public has the will to force this to be overturned, and I know damn well that Congress doesn’t have the will to do it on its own.” -Hucking

    I use my classes as to collect my own anecdotal polling data and, laugh as you might, I think there is a tinge of validity to it…particularly in predicting future opinion swings. Case in point….it was accurate about 5 or 6 years ago in predicting that more Americans will see themselves as pro-life.

    ….they didn’t much care about being peeped on. They don’t have even remotely the same expectations of privacy as I do. Scary.

  450. James let us know how the baby is doing…..i don’t know if its normal for me to worry about some internet presence’s grand baby…but I am.

    Your daughter should be glad she doesn’t have my brothers as cousins. They mean well….and are actually super concerned/interested when a new Rabbit is born…..but they end becoming pretty annoying. My wife always tells the story about how just moments after 40 hours of labor and an emergency C-section she just couldn’t believe that she had to deal with my brother sitting on the end of bed complaining how much he hates his engineering job.

    So let us know.

  451. “Ladies and Gentlemen, you may not like the fact that all your emails and phone conversations can be accessed by the government (I certainly don’t)” -R

    You don’t give a shit. If you did…there would be a blog entry about it already.

    I just found out that I’m teaching 4 “Current Affairs” classes next year.The curriculum is pretty much whatever I want. I already have 140 Constitutions booklets on order. Moowawawawawawa! As I said before….there are all kinds of ways to resist a soft police state and those who want to bestow an untrustworthy government with more power.

    I’m thinking about the entire class revolving around government corruption.

    I have a huge “Don’t Tread on Me” flag in the back of my classroom. I think I will be moving it to the front. I will do my part to teach that there is another side to the story then Thor and Rutherford’s insistence that growing Federal Power and increasing dependency is a good thing.

  452. Firstly and most importantly, congrats to James, and of course, she who made it all possible – no, not Michele Obama. LOL.

    Huck: “I don’t think the American public has the will to force this to be overturned, and I know damn well that Congress doesn’t have the will to do it on its own.”

    I don’t know, my friend. The world is littered with the carcasses of those who thought Americans wouldn’t fight. Ask the Japs. I’m seeing liberals, conservatives and libertarians coming together in a way I’ve never seen before. Everybody is looking for a way to respond; they just don’t have a leader yet.

    This is the golden opportunity to take down that crazy PATRIOT Act. There is a great, great, great article in The Atlantic today. Let me see if I can find it. Here you go:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/all-the-infrastructure-a-tyrant-would-need-courtesy-of-bush-and-obama/276635/

    This is no-bullshit time. Enough of libs-hate-cons-hate-christians-hate-atheists crap! We better all stop fucking around with the trivia; this is the real deal, and as far as this libertarian is concerned, the liberals and conservatives are all my friends.

  453. ” I’m seeing liberals, conservatives and libertarians coming together in a way I’ve never seen before. Everybody is looking for a way to respond; they just don’t have a leader yet.” -Pfessor

    I haven’t seen the outrage by liberals. News Papers maybe. I hope I’m wrong. Just look at this very blog. Rutherford told us we’re are being drama queens and then reminded us that it could be worse. That a shoulder shrug response is what we deserve.

    Most liberals I know at work are doing that…shrugging their shoulders. Some say they have nothing to hide. Look at that blog you guys go to.

    Personally…..I think the IRS bullying ranks up there with the snooping. We have liberals being put on TV by MSNBC who are saying complaints about this are veiled racism.

  454. Lets peruse Sunday morning reading at the top liberal blogs….Rutherford is correct….lots of shoulder shrugging. But we deserve because we are critical and stuff.

    Daily Kos: “Vermont does the time warp: A conference on civility in political discourse”.

    Crooks and Liars: “Why Michele Bachmann Won’t Run For Office Again, No Matter What”

    Media Matters: Laura Ingraham’s Campaign Against Immigration Reform Marked By Attacks On Immigrants, Latinos (apparently Ingraham’s opinion is responsible for Mexicans being attacked.)

    Paul Krugman’s The Conscience of a Liberal: The Confidence Fairy, The Expectations Imp, and the Rate-Hike Obsession (the only thing bothering Krugman’s conscience is that we are NOT printing enough and that we need MORE STIMULUS

    Little Green Footballs: NSA Bombshell Story Falling Apart Under Scrutiny

    If anything…contrary to Pfessor’s optimistic assertion that liberals and conservatives are coming together there is actually bipartisan support for it!

    Glass half empty perhaps. But….again….simply look at the tepid response by the former blogger Rutherford Lawson.

  455. I have to side with Huck and dead rabbit especially on this one.
    Huck makes the point that the “leaderless” masses ultimately do not have the will or endurance to undertake the epic endeavor. An endevour made more epic I would say by those actually trying to fight the Beast -more on that in a second.
    To dead rabbit’s cogent point the evidence is pretty clear that there is as much if not more bipartisan support for the actions ala NSA and IRS and that they have the ultimate advantage. They can prove much of the antics although seemingly unconstitutional are in fact carefully crafted to link up positively with existing and evolving law and are therefore consistently ruled Constitutional when the cases arise (see pf link @ atlantic that has a link re DNA sampling).
    The secret here folks is not attacking the acts themselves or the agencies that are conducting them. That is a FAIL!
    What needs to be done is no short and easy road but is the route that works. Diligent and vigilant pursuit via elections and legislation of controls over these issues. Big Data is here and coming on strong every day. If you are really concerned about your privacy you need to find a way to own it. I would put it to you all that we do not at this time and are more likely to further surrender it passively than we are to fight for it actively.
    The genie is well out of the bottle or perhaps I should say Pandora is out of the box. I personally don’t see us getting it contained and returned to the once upon a time. I can only hope we don’t miss the opportunity to control that which is so fully unleashed.

  456. Of special note to PF the liberals are definitely NOT your friends. I doubt you’ll find one anywhere and that includes here that remembers when they last worshipped “liberty”. The American Liberal is all about what’s going on right now because it ultimately serves their desire for socialism.

  457. “I’m seeing liberals, conservatives and libertarians coming together in a way I’ve never seen before.”

    Where are you seeing that?

    That is a genuine question. I live in a rural small town and I don’t get out much except to go to school 50+ miles away. I see what is on my route to and from there, and that is about it.

    I have yet to see or read about this coming-together on the Internet or in print media. And I don’t see any signs of it in my very limited travels. And keep in mind that it is not odd for me to see individuals or very small groups of people gathered on the corners of busy intersections in protest of particular issues.

    But not this one, yet. Maybe “yet” is the key there…I don’t know.

  458. Good to hear, James. Sniff your grandbaby’s head once for me.

    To those of you who are keeping it real through the recent revelations – I did give thanks this morning for having crossed paths with you.

    Some astonishing discoveries, I must say, making for some mighty strange sensations.

  459. Let’s see where this goes….

    The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.”

    The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. “I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong,” he said.”

  460. The point was made this morning that we are in strange times indeed when Lindsay Graham and Diane Fienstein stand together defending the NSA and we have Ron Paul and Jon Tester opposing it.

    Maybe this is not PF’s point but clearly the privacy vs safety debate is not obeying any party lines. It is bringing together strange bedfellows.

  461. Now that I know who it is, I have mixed feelings about him doing the leaking.

    Had it been someone from one of the private telecomm/internet companies I would have no problems.

    But I assume someone working in or with the CIA has to take oaths not to disclose secrets. We are currently demonizing and even prosecuting others who have broken such oaths of secrecy.

  462. R- it seems very clear to me. The President does NOT swear an oath to protect Americans. He swears to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” He is not doing that. Nor did his predecessor. Nor are the Senators and Congressmen — by the way, probably the biggest bunch of nincompoops, counterfeits and psychopaths ever gathered under one roof in the history of man.

    It is Critical to understand how MUCH more important it is to protect the Constitution than it is to protect the People. And by promising to protect the people, the govt has been able to usurp the authority to begin an open frontal attack on the Constitution.

    Read that Atlantic piece, R, and learn it by heart. It drove dead center.

  463. That was pretty good, albeit a year past due. I took a liking to the picture though. lol. This here rodeo is getting real down and dirty.

  464. It’s a scary world you’re bringing that new grand baby into, James. It’s good that she’ll have some instinctual advantage. I pray you and mrs James have many the opportunity to pass on wisdom as well. Enjoy all that new baby smell that so quickly wears off. I have to wait a few more months.

  465. What may soon be the largest digital porn collection on the planet:

    http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/

    “Under construction by contractors with top-secret clearances, the blandly named Utah Data Center is being built for the National Security Agency. A project of immense secrecy, it is the final piece in a complex puzzle assembled over the past decade. Its purpose: to intercept, decipher, analyze, and store vast swaths of the world’s communications as they zap down from satellites and zip through the underground and undersea cables of international, foreign, and domestic networks. The heavily fortified $2 billion center should be up and running in September 2013. Flowing through its servers and routers and stored in near-bottomless databases will be all forms of communication, including the complete contents of private emails, cell phone calls, and Google searches, as well as all sorts of personal data trails—parking receipts, travel itineraries, bookstore purchases, and other digital “pocket litter.” It is, in some measure, the realization of the “total information awareness” program created during the first term of the Bush administration—an effort that was killed by Congress in 2003 after it caused an outcry over its potential for invading Americans’ privacy.”

  466. Congratulations, James! Babies are a blessing and I look forward to the day if I am lucky enough to be called Grandpa.Tell your daughter from a total stranger, job well done.

    Women are amazing anatomical creatures…and from my personal experience, there was never a time I ever felt more helpless watching my two be born. It is so cool and so rewarding to watch my own wife interact with her own two grown daughters now. It gives me a peace that transcends explanation.

    The birth of the first one was so surreal, I think I babbled for about an hour, trying to grasp the magnitude of what I had just witnessed. I was completely unprepared. I grabbed the baby and my wife so quickly when offered while hanging over my wife (I’m surprised she didn’t smash me in the mouth for not letting her breathe after what she had been through), I ended up with blood all over the front of my shirt as mom held her daughter and I held them both.

    Then I went to breakfast with my parents and didn’t even notice the blood stains all over my chest and stomach until I put my napkin in my lap. I couldn’t believe my parents, neither one, had mentioned it – they must have been brain dead or blind as bats even then. 😈 I have often wondered what the other patrons in the restaurant must have thought as we stood around waiting for a table. 😆

    But it was such a humbling experience, that when I got home and was all alone, I thanked my God and felt very small and insignificant. It was such a paradox that in watching life come forth, it reminded me of how little I really know and how little I am really in control. I should have bottled that feeling – I would be better for it.

    It was a strange brew for a short period, feeling very close to the maker and yet feeling completely detached. I do remember that much.

  467. You would think if they were going to spy on all of us, they would at least be effective in the matter. Another proof to the Thor’s of the world putting your faith in the bottom feeders of our country is not good public policy:

  468. “It was a strange brew for a short period, feeling very close to the maker and yet feeling completely detached.”

    man…that perfectly describes it…

  469. Thanks everyone for the good wishes. I held our grand daughter for over two hours, and my dynamic personality so bored her she fell asleep. She was very noisy before that.

    Sonograms showed our grand daughter had no nasal bone, but she does. Her embylical cord was wrapped around her neck and she came out bluish. Doctors told our daughter and son-in law that and something wrong with the placenta could have killed their daughter.

    They want a sample of the baby’s urine but the nurse said she didn’t recognize the code order. Her head is a bit small, but not enough so one would notice. She weighs 6 pounds and 14 ounces, and has reddish hair.

    Both parents are exhausted without much sleep. We cared for their dog which had been alone for about ten hours, and we cleaned their house before our son-in law’s parents arrived.

    Now. my wife is staying with a friend who had rotator cup surgery six days ago. We will be back in Omaha later tomorrow.

    She is part Sami, Danish, German, Scots, Welsh and Brit.What a combination!

    Thanks again.

  470. The President does NOT swear an oath to protect Americans. He swears to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

    Well now PF you’re sounding like the folks who say “I did it cos the Bible told me so”. Sounds downright religious to me.

    I would venture to guess the founders made the Constitution amendable so it would serve the people. The founders did not intend for us to be slaves to any document.

    We have wrestled with freedom vs security for much of our existence. Just today I heard someone talking about the Japanese internments designed to keep us safer — and wrong wrong wrong.

    What should justifiably boil your shorts and those of others on this blog is how the same folks who bashed Bush now claim that the stripping of our privacy during the Obama admin has foiled terrorist plots and kept us safe. It is clear that the outrage is selective.

    BTW, FWIW I heard a security “expert” this morning say that the Booz-Allen whistle blower’s claims are exaggerated. Accept or reject that as you please.

  471. Bravo to Huck’s Judas Priest song. I might add that Tom Cruise’s film “Minority Report” with its pre-crime unit reminds me of our current drone policy. We kill them BEFORE they attack America. 👿

  472. I rather enjoyed this particular Obama speech.

    In 2006, then-Sen. Barack Obama criticized the nomination of U.S. Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden as director of the Central Intelligence Agency, citing the controversial National Security Agency program for wiretapping Americans and collecting their phone records.
    His full remarks below:

    I have no doubt that General Hayden will be confirmed. But I am going to reluctantly vote against him to send a signal to this administration that even in these circumstances, even in these trying times, President Bush is not above the law. No President is above the law. I am voting against Mr. Hayden in the hope that he will be more humble before the great weight of responsibility that he has not only to protect our lives but to protect our democracy.

    Americans fought a Revolution in part over the right to be free from unreasonable searches–to ensure that our Government could not come knocking in the middle of the night for no reason. We need to find a way forward to make sure we can stop terrorists while protecting the privacy and liberty of innocent Americans. We have to find a way to give the President the power he needs to protect us, while making sure he does not abuse that power. It is possible to do that. We have done it before. We could do it again.

  473. I would venture to guess the founders made the Constitution amendable so it would serve the people. The founders did not intend for us to be slaves to any document. ” — R

    No, they intended the Government to be a slave to the document. THAT is why the President swears to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. It is also why Obama seems to dislike the Constitution, because it ties his hands.

    We have wrestled with freedom vs security for much of our existence.” — R

    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” — Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

  474. What should justifiably boil your shorts and those of others on this blog is how the same folks who bashed Bush now claim that the stripping of our privacy during the Obama admin has foiled terrorist plots and kept us safe. It is clear that the outrage is selective.

    What makes you think it doesn’t boil our shorts? Every day, many of us remind you of that. And you’re one of the more honest ones of the left – a condemnation by itself considering your own level of hypocrisy on this very blog.

    Hypocrisy, selective outrage, and double standard is the Left’s middle name – and you making this observation is about five years too late and most certainly six months too late, chief. You don’t win any points from me for now admitting as much after you’ve accused us of trying to suppress votes – a lie as big as any other.

    Every Fat Grannies toad over there enabling the invasion of privacy is not condemning Obama but feigning outrage over Bush made it possible. It would be a waste of time to argue or even make public note with anyone from the Left, you included, if we were really trying to debate legitimacy around here.

    Why you ask?

    This is the way virtually all of you people calling yourself liberal, progressive, or whatever semantic today to enable the continuing epic failure and operate in damn near every facet of your life – most certainly your politics.

    You weren’t outraged when Barney Frank and Chris Dodd were not only soaking America for Fannie and Freddie, but benefiting personally. Then you cheered them when instead of being thrown in prison or publicly shamed, they penned that 2,000 page monstrosity Frank-Dodd of banking regulations – a complete sham.

    Bush water boarded three thugs for information and you screamed Gulag and the Hague. Obama has killed hundreds in drone strikes and he’s a middle of the road President.

    GITMO ruined America’s global reputation when Bush was President; now, we need to care for those starving jihadis at GITMO five years after Obama promised to close it.

    Bush’s economic policies brought us ruin, though 83 months into his Presidency, we were at full employment. Bush was called unpatriotic for raising the debt over $4 trillion. Bush’s tax cuts were for the “rich.”

    Obama’s economic policies saved us from a Depression, though our unemployment rate has never gone below 7.5% in two terms now – and middle class wages are 90% of what they were five years ago. Obama has already in less than five years accumulated more debt half again than Bush did in two full terms but he’s a Nobel winner. Obama’s tax cuts, those same Bush tax cuts five years earlier than sent us into the “worst recession”, had to be continued in 2011/2012, or we would once again enter recession and it would kill the middle class. Michelle Antoinette campaigns at $38,500 a plate campaign fund raisers that Obama is working for that “undefined” middle class.

    Hypocrisy? You’re rank propagandists defending a grossly incompetent thug who is Dimocratic – oh, and just happens to be “black”, though technically Obama is a lot more “white” and “Arab” than he is black. But because Obama is with the right party, it’s just “win baby.”

    Rutherford, it’s truly amazing how pious and observant you’ve suddenly become now that Obama has been elected a second time and can’t be reelected.

    Buddy, you’ve got no room to call anybody selective outraged, when for five years, you’ve been dealing the cards at the selectively outraged table.

  475. I see that the govt has begun its smear campaign against the NSA whistleblower. (“He has an overactive Mother Teresa gene!”) Of course the first process is to turn public sentiment against him. (Remember how Clinton began calling Monica Lewinsky a “predator” – that’s a laugh – until he found out she had certain “DNA” evidence?)

    Sometimes this “transparent” administration is really transparent as a windowpane, especially in revealing their baser instincts. I wonder if they will get him with a drone, before he is convicted of anything, since that’s now our official policy. I see that Michael Moore and Glenn Beck are BOTH raising hell. When two polar opposites like that join forces, or at least agree, it is possible – just possible – that we could repeal this crazy PATRIOT Act.

  476. “Well now PF you’re sounding like the folks who say “I did it cos the Bible told me so”. Sounds downright religious to me.”

    The Bible is a work of fiction; the Constitution is a work of man, codifying timeless principles of human rights. If you don’t think I worship it, you are sadly mistaken. You have not seen me kneel at Jefferson’s grave every year and ask him for help in its preservation.

    “Religious” devotion to that document doesn’t even begin to describe it.

  477. (CBS News) CBS News has uncovered documents that show the State Department may have covered up allegations of illegal and inappropriate behavior within their ranks.

    The Diplomatic Security Service, or the DSS, is the State Department’s security force, charged with protecting the secretary of state and U.S. ambassadors overseas and with investigating any cases of misconduct on the part of the 70,000 State Department employees worldwide.

    CBS News’ John Miller reports that according to an internal State Department Inspector General’s memo, several recent investigations were influenced, manipulated, or simply called off. The memo obtained by CBS News cited eight specific examples. Among them: allegations that a State Department security official in Beirut “engaged in sexual assaults” on foreign nationals hired as embassy guards and the charge and that members of former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s security detail “engaged prostitutes while on official trips in foreign countries” — a problem the report says was “endemic.”

    The memo also reveals details about an “underground drug ring” was operating near the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad and supplied State Department security contractors with drugs.

    Aurelia Fedenisn, a former investigator with the State Department’s internal watchdog agency, the Inspector General, told Miller, “We also uncovered several allegations of criminal wrongdoing in cases, some of which never became cases.”

    In such cases, DSS agents told the Inspector General’s investigators that senior State Department officials told them to back off, a charge that Fedenisn says is “very” upsetting.

    “We were very upset. We expect to see influence, but the degree to which that influence existed and how high up it went, was very disturbing,” she said.

    In one specific and striking cover-up, State Department agents told the Inspector General they were told to stop investigating the case of a U.S. Ambassador who held a sensitive diplomatic post and was suspected of patronizing prostitutes in a public park.

    The State Department Inspector General’s memo refers to the 2011 investigation into an ambassador who “routinely ditched … his protective security detai” and inspectors suspect this was in order to “solicit sexual favors from prostitutes.”

    Sources told CBS News that after the allegations surfaced, the ambassador was called to Washington, D.C. to meet with Undersecretary of State for Management Patrick Kennedy, but was permitted to return to his post.

    Fedenisn says “hostile intelligence services” allow such behavior to continue. “I would be very surprised if some of those entities were not aware of the activities,” she said. “So yes, it presents a serious risk to the United States government.”

    A draft of the Inspector General’s report on the performance of the DSS, obtained by CBS News, states, “Hindering such cases calls into question the integrity of the investigative process, can result in counterintelligence vulnerabilities and can allow criminal behavior to continue.”

    John Miller spoke with Mike Pohelitz, a retired Senior Agent at the DSS who was involved in one of the cases listed in the Inspector General’s memo. Pohelitz said he was told to stop investigating one of the cases and that the order likely came from the upper ranks of the DSS.

    “I got the information through my DS channel,” he told Miller. “But it had to come from somebody higher than DS, I’m sure.”

    According to Fedenisn, when a high-ranking State Department security officials was shown a draft of their findings that investigations were being interfered with by State Department higher-ups, he said, “This is going to kill us.” In the final report however, all references to specific cases had been removed.

    “I mean my heart really went out to the agents in that office, because they really want to do the right thing, they want to investigate the cases fully, correctly, accurately … and they can’t,” Fedenisn said.

    Fedenisn, a DSS agent for 26 years, was a part of the team that prepared the draft report and is now a whistleblower who has taken her concerns to Congress.

    Two hours after CBS News made inquiries to the State Department about these charges, investigators from the State Department’s Inspector General showed up at her door.

    In a statement provided to CBS News, the State Department said they will “not comment about specific allegations of misconduct, internal investigations or personnel matters. Not all allegations are substantiated. It goes without saying that the Department does not condone interference with investigations by any of its employees.”

  478. G @ 590, that’s the triple-truth, Ruth.

    R, I am truly non plussed by your take on the Constitution — a document you obviously have no familiarity with and have never bothered to comprehend. Earlier I asked “what gives” with the new era liberal statism. That was a serious question. Do you have the ability to answer it or reconcile it with your view of the obsolete document a/k/a/ The Constitution stands in the way of the proper role of government?

  479. Well PF, I see that homicidal racist sociopath that shot the angelic Trayvon Martin in the streets “like a dog” gets a second trial beginning today. After being convicted by the liberal press (the arbiter of true justice) this should be interesting. Thank God Rutherford’s hero Al Sharpton got down there in time to ensure a fair trial under the unimportant Constitutional standards now selectively applied by the powers that be.

  480. I had heard that experts determined the cries for help on the 911 recording were analyzed as being Trayvon’s and not Zimmerman’s. That kind of kiboshes the whole self defense defense me thinks.

  481. @593 Since the guy (Snowden) is “hiding” in Hong Kong I don’t think smearing him is the worse thing that may happen or the hardest to fathom.
    On one hand he is ripe for suspicion now regards dealing with Beijing. On another a little cough* cough* bird flu and he’s dead.
    I know if his case file hit my desk that would be two ways to play it.

  482. @ Rutherford I have to say I am by no means getting the vibe you really care about what’s going on or the system infrastructure as it were that will allow others,NOT A PROGRESSIVE AND ENLIGHTENED (D), do the same or even worse as the technology allows.
    Do you even care?

  483. I get how whistleblowers can be a real pain in the ass and often be far from credible,just grenade tossers as it were, but everything I’ve seen indicates that the most transparent Administration EVAH! has really been harshing the mellow.

  484. We need to find a way forward to make sure we can stop terrorists while protecting the privacy and liberty of innocent Americans.

    Noah once you’re in the hot seat you can then say, as Obama is saying now, that we ARE stopping terrorists while protecting privacy. I get your point about the apparent hypocrisy here but if there were ever a slippery slope this one is it. We can rationalize and define ourselves out of the moral dilemma.

    If your true credo is “9/11 — never again” then how far is too far to make good on that pledge?

  485. G, I assume your Ben Franklin quote supports my assertion and does not contradict it. It was under another of the founder’s admins, John Adams, that we had the Alien and Sedition Acts, supported by the Federalists and opposed by the Dem-Republicans. Parts of the act clearly restrict free speech.

    So I stand by my statement — we have struggled with liberty vs security from the very beginning.

  486. Tex, my verbiage was sub-par. When I said “should boil your shorts” I wasn’t suggesting your shorts weren’t boiling … I was simply agreeing that they should be boiling.

  487. Ahhhh if only I had been laid off eight years earlier and began this blog at the start of the Bush admin. Then I could accurately measure your disgust with the Patriot Act back then.

    We have two very distinct sets of hypocrites among us today ladies and gentlemen. The conservatives who dislike 4th Amendment violations when a Dem is in the WH and liberals who only dislike it when a Repub is in the WH.

    In answer to Alfie’s question, it isn’t that I don’t care. It’s that I don’t know what can be done about it. I do hope to devote a post to it, from a different angle, later today.