The Worst Pro-Choice Argument Ever

A couple of weeks ago I was watching “The Cycle” on MSNBC when co-host and qualifiied-to-talk-about-I-don’t-know-what co-host Toure launched into his “personal” take on the 40th anniversary of Roe v. Wade. By the time he was finished I wanted to jump through the TV screen and punch him right in the face.

Let’s deconstruct some of Toure’s argument.

1. Many years ago Toure was in a “committed relationship with a woman who I knew was just not the one”. The tone of his voice as he says this is so la-dee-da that my immediate instinct was to slap him. It’s an oxymoron. Committed means you’re planning to work at the relationship. From my perspective, this was just Toure’s way of saying “I got tired of f*cking her.”

2. “And then she got pregnant.” This reminds me of a battle I got into on another blog when a commenter said she “found herself pregnant”. What? She just woke up one day and there was a new life growing in her womb? So mysterious! How about “we had high risk sexual intercourse that resulted in my girlfriend getting pregnant”. Isn’t that what really happened? What’s this “she got” or “she found herself” business? Why the passive voice? Couples DO something to become pregnant. It doesn’t just happen.

3. “We got an abortion.” No Toure, sorry dude, she got an abortion. And aren’t you lucky she did, as we move onto point 4:

4. Toure says he “would only have contributed to making a mess of three lives” had the abortion not happened. So the better alternative was to make a mess of one life by denying it the right to proceed to natural birth. No Toure, the truth is that putting aside all the melodrama, one of two things would have happened. Either you would have placed the child for adoption or you would have grown a pair and lived up to your responsibility to help raise the baby you helped create. This sanctimonious excuse for making one of the most devastating decisions a couple can make, made me want to puke. Is “making a mess” a nice euphemism for an inconvenience?

5. Just so we know Toure has a conscience, he shares with us that the sonogram of the baby he felt deserved life, made him reflect on abortion. How DEEP of him!

6. Toure then quotes Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg: “a woman’s autonomy to determine her life’s course.” Why does that autonomy kick in only after she gets knocked up? How about the autonomy involved in using contraception that with the benefits of today’s science has a 99% pregnancy prevention rate? What happened to that autonomy? What happened to that sense of responsibility?

7. “”I want abortion to be legal safe and rare”. So says Toure. I guess his inability to keep his pecker in his pants unless he has protection falls in that “rare” category.

8.  “”We are hurting our nation by making family planning harder.” Let’s get something straight. Abstinence is family planning. Birth control is family planning. You see, planning involves preparing for the future. That’s the definition of planning. Abortion is “cleanup in aisle five”. It’s NOT planning. It is the consequence of NOT planning.

9. “Abortion kept me on a path to building the strong family i have now”. What a smug bastard. Preventing a life from coming to fruition made it possible for Toure to get on with his. Bravo for Toure!

Gang, Toure’s little “personal journey” is exactly what gets the blood boiling in pro-life folks. The problem we have in talking about abortion is we sugar coat what is going on. We act like pregnancy happened to us. We act like we’re doing the kid a favor (when we’re really only doing ourselves a favor). And on top of it all, the only thing more sickening than a man lecturing about how a woman MUST go to term, is a man arguing against her doing so. Call me old fashioned but the man’s contribution to the situation is often selfish at best. The pregnancy is often the result of his carelessly getting his rocks off. He is the last person on Earth to be weighing in on any of this.

So, after hearing Toure’s self indulgent piece of garbage, I think I need to change the label I apply to myself. I am no longer “pro-choice”. I am “anti-legislation”. The t that I still cannot cross and the i that I still cannot dot, is the government choosing sides between a woman’s body and the body growing inside her. It isn’t about the woman’s “autonomy”. It is simply a matter of personal boundaries and I think a government that crosses the very personal boundary of a woman’s body has gone too far. I’m comfortable with the current approach of judging the situation by how far along the pregnancy is.

But let us be clear. I have a dilemma with the intersection of morality and legality on this issue.  However Toure made it crystal clear for me what abortion should and should not be about. Abortion should save the life of the mother and perhaps allow her to terminate a pregnancy that was forced upon her (i.e. rape). In every other case, grown people should take responsibility for having sexual intercourse. That means either placement of the child or pointing your own life in a different direction to take care of the precious life you have created. I’ve got zero tolerance for the story of a grown-ass man opting for abortion so that he can wait until he is ready to “build a strong family”.

If I were Toure’s child, I’d tell him “damn Daddy, I sure am glad I was conceived at a time when it was convenient for you to be my father.”

What a damn fool.



133 thoughts on “The Worst Pro-Choice Argument Ever

  1. R, still waiting on your and Lurker to step up to the Obama phone conversation. Premature and ignorant celebrating at my expense comes with a price.

    When I take a stand, it is because I believe certain things to be true. I back that up with evidence and I come to conclusions based on that evidence. If I am to be moral and truthful, I need to be consistent in my beliefs and stick to them even when it does not benefit me, and especially when it is detrimental to me. I should also be willing to honestly examine those beliefs when inconsistencies pop up challenging my reasons for the stated belief.

    I don’t claim I have everything figured out. I don’t claim that there is only one right answer. But at least be consistent in the things you claim to cherish and uphold.

    This is where I feel Liberals fail and fail often, and is by far the biggest reason I have boarder line hate for most of them.

    If you care about children and life, then care about all children and all life. I happen to believe everyone has rights that deserves consideration. Even though I am pro life, I have to remain consistent in my stated belief and take the mothers rights into consideration, even if it is to make a choice I would never do.

    My problem with pro choice people is they are the same people who want to protect the children from all the evil in the world, yet refuse to give any rights at all to an unborn child. I can accept that according to your values you place no value on unborn children. I cannot accept you being selective in your enforcement of those beliefs.

  2. I agree, Rutherford.

    I am pro- choice, but only when extenuating circumstances dictate the equivalent to someones’ shooting a person who is a threat. My wife and I once considered an abortion when times were bad, but it was a false alarm. Even when there is no choice,, the deed should not be taken lightly. The extinguished life should be memorialized or at least remembered for the person who waited for eternity to live and who lost the chance.

    My wife woke me early one morning and said “We have to get to the hospital NOW!. Pro- choice people are fond of rationalizing murder by convincing themselves the mother carries a fetus, something not entirely human. It is just tissue.

    It was a baby with a face, arms and legs, and it probably felt pain at the end. We got a class action settlement and years later another unexcpected small payment which only accacerbated our anguish , We still sometimes mark time. What would the kid have been doing now? We don’t dwell on it, and we have not told our other children.

    I do hate liberals as a class,because of their cavaleir attitude toward abortion and for other reasons, but it is not socially acceptable to express it. We have to get along.

    “Cause that’s that, I can scream, I can shout
    I can cry my eyes out, but she’s not coming back
    And that’s that. I can hope, I can pray
    But she’s still gone away
    And she’s not coming back and that’s that.”

    Michael Johnson

  3. I did not watch the clip. I’ll just respond from your statements. I think I get the gist. I think it has broader application.

    Justification. We apply multitudes of words and effort to cover our crimes against other life forms. The Bible calls it sin, which is an archery term meaning missing the mark. Humans. It is more important for us to be right than it is to do the right thing.

  4. James, my best to your daughter and son-in-law, here is to hoping the results of the next test are better and give them much joy.

  5. Thanks Newt. As you can guess our past history makes us nervous until we actually see the baby. Now, our daughter has the same disease which afflicted Hillary. She spewed all over the office but she finished counseling her clients before she went home.

    She was so sick yesterday morning that her boss delivered 7-up and some food . My wife spent the night with her because our son-in law was working. He has his own health problems right now. Our daughter should have stayed home from work, today, but she is as stubborn as her parents.

  6. I’m confused. We’re told that the only thing more sickening than a man lecturing about how a woman MUST go to term, is a man arguing against her doing so. Yet, Rutherford goes on to lecture 95 percent of all women who chose abortion.

    Of course, Rutherford claims its his…cough…libertarian streak…that can’t get him to call for legislation to stop the slaughter.

    He wants government to regulate every aspect of your life except for abortion…the one area he very well knows is done for the most superficial reasons 95 times out of 100.

    Can’t open up a pub that alows smoking. Can’t elect not to be insured. Can’t own a rifle with an extended clip. But dice up a baby with little dimples and finger nails. Sigh…..for the sake of freedom….go ahead.

    Mr. Toure’s story sums up pro choice to the tee. I say this with undeniable facts. Sick fucks.

    Mean while… entire gender is going extinct in China and India.

    So fucking wrong, man.

  7. Yes, DR nailed it. .In my opinion, Feminists who campaigned for abortion rights were a Democratic constituent group the party favored. Smokers, gun owners, and others are less equal than the favored few.

    As Chris Rock said Obama is our father, and we must do as he says.

  8. Rutherford – As you are fond of saying, you are a complex man.

    DR noted: “He wants government to regulate every aspect of your life except for abortion…the one area he very well knows is done for the most superficial reasons 95 times out of 100.”

    Saying it is true does not make it true. I have NEVER found that the case, although I’m sure it is, sometimes. Every woman with whom I have interacted has a)never undertaken the decision lightly or b)later expressed that it was the wrong decision. Regret? Yes, that they foolishly let themselves get pregnant when they couldn’t deal with the consequences, but never regret about the decision to abort.

    case in point: My cousin got his girlfriend preggers in the ‘eighties. She was from a fundie Baptist family, he from a no-nonsense Scottish clan (mine) that was very unforgiving of poor choices. They were nearly hysterical. I was a resident physician at the time; I helped them arrange an abortion and let them stay at my apartment over the weekend.

    That was over thirty years ago. They now have two children, 23 and 18, and are very happy with their choice. No matter how much you want to mischaracterize people who choose abortion, it is just not true. Most are just like you and me and they made a mistake. You ever make a mistake?

    What I don’t understand is why we can’t let them make their own choice, instead of shouting and moralizing at them. If it’s “murder” then it’s on them, not me.

  9. It sucks that those Fiore video imbeds don’t play anymore. I guess I’ll have to refrain from posting them. Damn.

    Obama is not my dad, I don’t care what Chris Rock says. The dude is a sellout. He joins a long list of celebrity sellouts. It is sad to watch and listen to these mouthpieces fawn all over him and ignore his crimes against the constitution and humanity. Pathetic, really. Symptomatic of a falling empire. Like the latest Lee Camp proclaims. I think his imbeds still play.

  10. Doug Ross@Journal: “And we are going to have to make decisions about health care, doc pay for health care that has no demonstrated medical benefits.

    So the snarky version…which I shouldn’t even say because it will get me into trouble is death panels and sales taxes is how we do this.” Paul Krugman.

    Steven Rattner former Obama czar has also said Obama care will require death panels to ration care as the population ages.

    Sarah Palin was right, and her critics were wrong. Mom and Dad, especially Mom decides when an unborn life must be terminated. Father Obama is also now pro- choice as he through government agencies will decide when a life must end.

    Maybe economics may dictate no other option, but my point to the Sarah detractors is she was right and Obama was wrong.

  11. Fuck yes I make mistakes. I don’t hate people who accidently get pregnant.

    Pfessor tells me not to “moralize” what I believe to be murder. So, why does he moralize me for moralizing? If it is an invasion of privacy on my part, its on me. No?

    Pfessor helped his cousin get an abortion becuase……mommy and daddy would be mad if they found out. Oh the horror. Kill the baby becuase Daddy will be pissed. Holy shit….they could have ended up being grounded or not welcome at Thanksgiving.

    Having an abortion because its awkward to explain to your parents that you fucked raw dog is some cowardly shit. I told my old man to fuck off at the age of 17 and left. I get along now, but have never been back.

    Adoption, Pfessor. Adoption.

  12. How’s this for an addition?

    Planned Parenthood began as part of a eugenics movement to get rid if black children and other “inferior” additions to our gene pool. “Shiftless’ white southerners were also a target. Their attitude now is not a surprise.

    The press keeps quiet as they do about the former police officer who is killing people. He is an Obama supporter and even likes Michele’s new hair do. He also supports gun control. Woe to the Tea Party if the shooter was a gun-loving conservative fan of Rush.

  13. I told you Bengazi was giving me flash backs to a similar experience and the Capt. Masey you never heard of. I told you Obama should be impeached, not to remove him, but to learn the truth from people forced to speak under oath.

    But NOOOO, just wait a while, the facts will come out You are over reacting. It takes time to sort out confusing events. Besides, Obama has an election to win.

    .NIce Deb “Ice water in his veins: while Doherty and Woods were fighting for their lives”,Implications of Leon Panetta’s testimony show that Obama was sleeping soundly” Barry and Hillary were AWOL and lied about it.

    Based on their lack of involvement as our men died, why should we believe Obama was personally involved in the murder of Ossama? I think it was a filthy lie.

    I have no major to shake my fist at this time, so I only rant .If it were possible to travel back in time, I would perform several abortions, beginning with the press. I am not seriously considering fleeing the country to escape a disintegrating society, but I entertain the thought because I am ashamed to occupy the same country as some of those people,

    Now, I feel better, but the men are still dead.

  14. My rant continues. Pundit and Pundet has the transcript of Peneta’s testimony.

    Michelle Malkin: The Blame Righty mob falls silent”

    None of you can honestly defend those people for these specific incidents.

  15. I was actually shocked it turns out Obama wasn’t even on the watch during Benghazi and I’m not being sarcastic. It’s starting to make sense why they spun such b.s. now. The truth actually might have damaged him in the polls after all. A temporary “patch” was in order, if you look at from the perspective of a campaign. For the life of me, I couldn’t understand why the campaign was so paranoid about the truth. Now I know. Total dropped ball.

  16. Obama and Biden were actually on a phone call to Bibi during the Benghazi attack. Both of them were unavailable. The chain of command was severed and lesser knowns were in charge.

  17. Can you guys believe the silence from the left over drone murder? How pathetic. If you haven’t eaten in a while and you are in no danger of barfing….you guys have got to travel back in time and read Rutherford’s pompous blogs (don’t forget the comment section) on water boarding and Gitmo. Hilarious. And sickening. None of it and I mean none of it really mattered to Rutherford and his buddies. To think they would be silent over the murder of Americans yet beside themselves with outrage over water-boarding KSM seals the deal for me. Liberals are the most disingenuous pieces of garbage on earth.

    Rutherford….dude…I took another trip down memory lane. Shut this fucking blog down and start over, fraud.

  18. Another Obama success story…
    The Drakes Bay Oyster Co. has been in business for 100 years.
    Then came Barack Obama.
    In November, the Obama Administration shut down the oyster farm. They said it was for environmental reasons.

  19. DR opined:

    “Pfessor tells me not to “moralize” what I believe to be murder. So, why does he moralize me for moralizing?”

    Nobody is moralizing; I just think that, since most of America disagrees with you, you should mind your own business and let people make their own decisions.

    ‘A May 2012 Gallup poll with a margin of error of plus or minus 4 percent found that 77 percent of Americans thought abortion should be always legal or sometimes legal. Twenty percent said abortion should be illegal in all circumstances. Notably, this 20 percent was much smaller than the number of people who declared themselves “pro-life” (50 percent), suggesting that people who identify with that label do not always reject abortion in every circumstance.’

    (These numbers have hardly budged in the past forty years, despite all the gyrations of the fetus people.)

    In this country, the minority, (that would be YOU) no matter how vehement in their opinions, do NOT rule. 100 percent agree that murder is murder; only a minority feel the same about abortion. Let everyone decide for themselves and put your energy into things that matter, like for example, saving your country from the socialists.


  20. “Can you guys believe the silence from the left over drone murder?”

    Same with the guy who has now admitted he shot up the Family Research Council and was going to smear Chick-Fil-A on the faces of his victims because the Southern Poverty Law Center labelled it as a hate group.

    And the cop killing asshole that is being labelled a modern day Django, whose “manifesto” is being edited by the media to remove its many instances of lefty love.

  21. That ex cop is a maniac. So they are hiding his manifesto, uh. Classic. Haven’t even heard the chicken sandwich nut job yet.

  22. I’ll try to pop in Saturday. Got a meet in the morning. Then on Sunday I go live after two weeks of training. It’s insane for a grown-ass man to be so nervous about a new job. But there it is.

  23. “That ex cop is a maniac. So they are hiding his manifesto, uh. Classic.”

    Yeah, it’s like 20+ pages, but the media is only showing about half of it. Here’s some of what the media is scrubbing…

    “Who in there right mind needs a fucking silencer!!! who needs a freaking SBR AR15? No one. No more Virginia Tech, Columbine HS, Wisconsin temple, Aurora theatre, Portland malls, Tucson rally, Newtown Sandy Hook. Whether by executive order or thru a bi-partisan congress an assault weapons ban needs to be re-instituted. Period!!!”

    “You disrespect the office of the POTUS/Presidency and Commander in Chief. You call him Kenyan, mongroid, halfrican, muslim, and FBHO when in essence you are to address him as simply, President. The same as you did to President George W. Bush and all those in the highest ranking position of our land before him. Just as I always have. You question his birth certificate, his educational and professional accomplishments, and his judeo-christian beliefs. You make disparaging remarks about his dead parents. You never questioned the fact that his former opponent, the honorable Senator John McCain, was not born in the CONUS or that Bush had a C average in his undergrad. Electoral Candidates children (Romney) state they want to punch the president in the face during debates with no formal repercussions. No one even questioned the fact that the son just made a criminal threat toward the President. You call his wife a Wookie. Off the record, I love your new bangs, Mrs. Obama.”

    “Chris Matthews, Joe Scarborough, Pat Harvey, Brian Williams, Soledad Obrien, Wolf Blitzer, Meredith Viera, Tavis Smiley, and Anderson Cooper, keep up the great work and follow Cronkite’s lead.”

    “Too bad Trayvon didn’t smash your skull completely open, Zim. ”


    “Haven’t even heard the chicken sandwich nut job yet. ”

    There’s a reason for that….

    “On Feb. 6., Floyd Lee Corkins II pleaded guilty to charges, including “committing an act of terrorism with the intent to kill,” for a shooting last summer at the conservative Family Research Center headquarters in Washington’ D.C., that wounded one unarmed security guard. Corkins confessed he targeted FRC after discovering the organizationvia the SPLC’s “Hate Map.””

  24. “Nobody is moralizing; I just think that, since most of America disagrees with you, you should mind your own business and let people make their own decisions.”

    A minor point but not really. Cultural relativism isn’t true, never has been in my book. Just because the majority want it doesn’t necessarily make it right.

    As I have said before, everyone deserves rights, protections, and consideration. I have yet to here a valid reason, not by anyone here or anywhere else for that matter, why we should not give rights to babies, or in the vernacular you prefer, a fetus.

  25. A new study from the widely respected National Bureau of Economic Research released this week has confirmed beyond question that the left’s race-baiting attacks on the housing market (the Community Reinvestment Act–enacted under Carter, made shockingly more aggressive under Clinton) is directly responsible for imploding the housing market and destroying the economy.

    The study painstakingly sorted through failed home loans that caused the housing market collapse and identified an overwhelming connection between them and CRA mortgages.

  26. To put the last nail in the coffin….

    Listen to tricky Dicky Clinton at the end. Dems fucked us, period, and made a boat load of money doing it.

  27. Stanley Kurtz reported the racial black mail which contributed to the housing bubble before the 2008 election. He also showed how Obama was connected through his legal aid and instructions to ACORN workers. Our banker told me government men went through the books of our county banks to pressure them to add low income risky loans to their portfolios. One man refused to open his books, and they took him to Omaha for further discussions.

    I’ve mentioned this before, including written proof that Obama worked with and probably joined the Illinois socialist New Party. It’s nice that (32) another study confirms what others told us years ago.

    It is also nice that the media and entertainment business has revealed its hypocroacy and willingness to make points with the blood of slain victims. Once again, they ignore the Sandy storm victims languishing months after Obama promised help while many said New Orleans was suffering because Bush didn’t like blacks. Perhaps Obama doesn’t like whites. If Sarah Palin owed an appology to victims of the shooting which nearly killed Gabby Giffords, so do the President and his media allies for later shootings.

    Good luck with the job, Rutherford. I’m sure you will do well. Being nervous is healthy. It should give you an edge. When you return, we will take great delight in telling you” WE TOLD YOU SO!”, and you will have no honest response. I have hope you might yet change your opinion about some of these people without altering your basic beliefs. You don’t have to suddenly turn conservative while recognizing those people have been playing us.

  28. “Nobody is moralizing; I just think that, since most of America disagrees with you, you should mind your own business and let people make their own decisions.” -Pfessor

    Why would I ever mind my own damn business because my opinion is in the minority? Never mind your poll numbers are debatable as all hell as most agree that the the country is leaning pro life more every day, who the holy hell are you to tell me to mind my own business?

  29. Man….that ex cop is literally a liberal terrorist. Pathetic they hide that fact. I dont get it. Its not like we would do the same thing Rutherford does, blame the left. They guy is nuts and needs a bullet in his dome.

  30. “Never mind your poll numbers are debatable as all hell as most agree that the the country is leaning pro life more every day, who the holy hell are you to tell me to mind my own business?”

    I am The PFesser, but don’t need to be. I could be any of the 70 percent, nearly all of whom would like to tell you:

    Mind your own business.

  31. And, if you don’t like abortions, I can suggest two options for you: 1) don’t have one, and 2)stop promoting policies that invariably lead to abortion – i.e. “abstinence” education.

    Other countries don’t worry about abortion; their abortion rates are fractions of ours because they don’t have a bunch of fundies running around screaming, “Don’t tell them about sex! They’ll DO it!”

    Right you are.

  32. “Mind your own business.” -PFessor

    Sorry, shemp. America don’t work that way.

    Besides, you’ve felt the need to come on here and journal your own abortion chronicles numerous times. This latest one is a little different then one you told us about when you went behind your own brother’s back. (your niece). I suppose that one falls under the subject header of “man code violation” and can be a discussion for another day.

    But, mind my own business? By doing so, you would be forcing me to accept your premise that there is no victim in abortion. What are you, some kind of tyrant?

    Disagree with me all you want. That’s fine. But, demanding my voice go silent? Blow me.

    As for your poll numbers…’s up for debate. Am I not allowed to post poll numbers? Or does that count as not minding my business?
    Are Gallup numbers only yours to cherry pick?

    In the last ten years, I’ve noticed a drastic swing by young people to the pro life camp. Drastic. Admittedly anecdotal evidence, but it is drastic.

    You boomers really think you are all “seal of the prophets”, don’t you? You know, you should take a gander. You might find it kind of hot. There are all kinds of women out who aren’t menopausal veterans of the cultural revolution with a voice, too, old man. They shave their arm pits too.

  33. DR – it ain’t that hard. No matter how you prance and dance, most Americans want abortion available. A large majority.

    Yes, the fetus people – like yourself – are highly convinced that THEY are so right that they should be able to force their opinions on everybody, but the unfortunate fact is that they are STILL a gross minority. (History is replete with that kind of fanaticism, by the way, and it always leads to bad things.)

    Nobody is forcing you to have an abortion. You can make your own choice. (That’s called being “pro choice.”) Others would like the same consideration. In order for them to do that, all YOU have to do is Mind Your Own Business.

  34. There are those of us that believe no group, no matter how you classify them by race, sex, whatever, should be without any rights PF. The fact pro choice people cannot give an unborn child any rights at any time is something I have a problem with.

  35. Noah – once again, you can’t just believe what you want to believe. Roe v Wade is very specific on the “rights” question. IANAL, but general consensus is that the best layman-level description is as follows:

    first trimester – you can abort for any reason
    second trimester – you can abort for SOME reasons
    third trimester – abortion for almost NO reason

    I think that is a good compromise, but some don’t WANT to compromise; they want what they want. That’s too f’in bad, because it ain’t going to happen.

    As I have said before, the problem is that one side believes that an entity which starts out as one cell and ends as a baby should all the rights of citizenship throughout its building process. The other side does not.

    Until everybody who claims an opinion on abortion really, really takes the time to study – and learn – the process from one end to the other, there will be no solution. When they do, their differences will end and they will sit down together. Until that time, the conflict goes on, and we will continue to waste our precious time and resources fighting each other. As we waste that time on abortion, more important issues, like getting this country on a sound fiscal basis, remain unaddressed, and will continue to carry us right down the path to national oblivion.

  36. Today is our wedding anniversary

    .We were married on a Saturday two hours after the rehearsal and dinner. My best man had gotten a new car, and we took it out for a spin. We were late to the dinner, and everyone teased my wife about being stood up.

    My best man paniced when he realized he had forgotten the ring. We used his wedding ring and no one but the minister and we knew. My wife had to be teaching on Monday, and I at the base hospital. Our car stalled thirty miles east of Rapid City, and the temperature was 9 degrees. No one stopped for us from Midnight until 2 AM when a salesman took us to town.

    “Welcome you who has been expected for lonesome years.”
    the dearest, the dearest with blue eyes.”

    Don Andersson Jag Ventar.

  37. Rutherford, it would be insane for a grown ass man NOT to be nervous about the first day of work.

    The farther down the totem pole, the more stressful and intimidating the first day is. A new CEO of a fortune 500 company eats scrimps and gets his dick sucked on the first day. The grease covered motherfucker at A&W restaurant burns his arms deep frying taters.

    Welcome to the blue collar world, brother. The cool thing is, if you survive the first week, you can dominate the profession. Quite the opposite for Mr. CEO. His anxiety is a slow burn.

    Good luck.

  38. Thanks everyone. We were married in 1968.We are still fit and don’t have much wrong with us.

    We plan to watch “Lincoln” on a free ticket-popcorn ticket, then eat out after noon and see what trouble we can get into later.

    Good luck Rutherford.

  39. Worth your 27 minutes to listen to this. This is the first time I have heard another human being articulate my beliefs and values so perfectly. What a wise man. Very presidential?

  40. Pfessor,

    Just curious why my Gallop Poll is “prancing and dancing” and YOUR Gallop pull is evidence. Thanks.

    Roe vs Wade revolves around viability outside of the womb. When I apply a little Plato (notice I’m not even evoking God), viability has nothing to do with what makes something human.

    You are still a human being if you depend on your mother for life, whether inside the womb or out.

  41. DR – by that logic, then, your finger is a human, since it cannot exist without its life-support system. (I would agree that it “is human,” just not “A human.”)

    The, “when is it a human?” argument is doomed to failure, and is a red herring – the argument always turns to he-said/she-said, and you go nowhere.

    The real argument is – and has always been – “When does a fetus have the right to protection under the law?” and “How do you balance the fetus’ rights with the woman’s rights at every stage of pregnancy?” To my eye – having taken two embryology courses and stared for hours at early pregnancies through the microscope – the very early pregnancy should have NO rights; the newborn should have them all. Roe v Wade has already addressed this, and I believe in a solomonic fashion.

    BTW, don’t get me wrong; I well understand that religion has been pondering the great questions forever, and I have no problem with that. I just don’t give any weight to – or dismiss – such ponderings just because “God” said it. If it makes sense, it makes sense, if not, they take it up the keister, just like everybody else.

    Happy anniversary, James. My only wish as a young man was to grow old and die with the same woman. Unfortunately, for me it won’t happen. Good for you. You are a lucky man.

  42. Again. Just wondering why you dismissed my Gallop poll. Your entire angle at first was the will of the people. I think you owe me an explanation why mine means so little. No? Prancing and dancing?

    By your logic Stephen Hawking is NOT a human being. The man quite simply is not viable without complete and utter dependency on something outside of his own body.

    Your finger analogy is the classic example of bad logic. I think you need to bust out your old Venn Diagrams again.

    You atheists crack me up. Nothing but God talk out of you guys. Notice I haven’t brought Him up once.

    Apply Plato’s forms to the fetus at 11 weeks. It’s got almost everything a human being does except viability. Yet, many human beings aren’t viable without massive support from machines or other people.

    You can’t shut me up, guy. In fact, my prancing and dancing might one day change the law of the land.

  43. man…come to find out the radical left has the numbers when it comes to pro violence mania. Unbelievable.

    As for the cop killer….dude loves Obama and hates the NRA. Can you imagine if it was reversed?

  44. Another ignored story. Hispanic gangs terrorizing black people in Compton. I’m talking Ku Klux Klan shit. Ahh…..predictable liberals…..use the black man and then screw him. I guess this story doesn’t fit well with the national goals of liberals.

  45. “Another ignored story. Hispanic gangs terrorizing black people in Compton.”

    I haven’t heard a thing about this.

    Did you read it or see it somewhere? I would like to get more info on this.

  46. Thanks DR. Very enlightening, including this portion:

    “Compton, with a population of about 97,000, was predominantly black for many years. It is now 65% Latino and 33% black, according to the 2010 U.S. census.”

    I wouldn’t have guessed that.

    This one I might have guessed…

    “Leaders of the Azusa 13 gang were sentenced to lengthy prison terms earlier this month for leading a policy of attacking African American residents and expelling them from the town.”

    I lived in and next door to Azusa for many years. Lots of areas I wouldn’t want to get lost in or even walk after dark. I am as white as white can be, but I guess I am not shocked that the bangers in that area are going after black people, too.

  47. Huck, nothing is down played more then hispanic-black tension. It’s horrible in correctional facilities. Can’t mix um up, often times. It was a pain in the ass when i worked hard core juvenile prisons. I can’t imagine west coast real deal prisons.

  48. Is Azusa the street version of the La eMe?

    Yeah dude..if so….not to be fucked with.

    I was the security threat group coordinator when I worked the juvenile prisons. I took many classes on gangs.

    Been out of it 8 years. Which means I’m completely out of it.

    I dealt with MS 13 quite a bit. Little bit of 18th street, but not much West Coast stuff other then Crip and Blood sets.

  49. “Is Azusa the street version of the La eMe?”

    It’s been 23 years since I have lived in that area, but I suspect it has only gotten worse. My first 2 apartments after getting married were on “safe streets,” but in the case of the 2nd one, literally the next street over was a no-go zone.

    I worked construction with a few Mexican bangers, and we were cool. But I used to hear a lot of stories about their night life and I had no reason to not believe them. Back then it seemed to be more Mexican on Mexican violence.

    I knew tensions between the 2 were bad in prisons here, but didn’t imagine the situation in Compton. That used to be a notorious black area.

  50. Actually, any 13 gang techincally is controled by MM. In Detroit its like the dark ages. Outside of a few, the gangs amount to little crews, sometimes representing a few blocks.

    Something about the Hispanic gangs always raised the hair on the back of my neck.

  51. Rabbit thanks for the encouragement. What really kills me is the low pay for the high stress. Damn this country is ass backwards in their value system. I’m taking calls from folks scared to death on a highway while the CEOs are playing office politics. Damn! ;-(

  52. From Huck, “another ignored story, Hispanics terrorizing black people in Compton…”The animosity must be old. Cheech and Chong, Born in East LA music video has a brief scene of an angry black gang, I think.

    A WW11 veteran told me that as the Army Rangers trained for Omaha Beach many of them dated British women. Blacks were so popular that native young men protested that black sailors were getting all of the women. The command reacted by banning shore leave for all blacks. They were understandably angry and mutinied. They took over a ship. Many people died or were injured before the mutiny was quelled.

  53. We had a good anniversary and enjoyed the movie “Lincoln.” I did have a bonus.

    A vertically stacked low with a central pressure below 2920 moved very close to us and dropped up to 10 inches of snow from western Nebraska northeast the the western Great Lakes. We should have gotten more than light rain, but we were dry slotted.

    Then, just before we left for the movie, a small vortcity max rotated around the low and created a line of convective showers along the wind shift. It began to rain.

    As we prepared to see the movie, a 40 to 50 MPH west wind began as the rain changed to snow and sleet. A friend who was shopping in Sioux City called to ask the sudden heavy snow would cause driving problems. I told her “no” and envied her the big snow flakes.

    We left the movie theater after the movie as the snow reduced the visibility to a half mile as the ground began to get white. Such snow fell all the way home.

    Our friend called again with another weather report. I told her it was icing on the cake. She said “anything to give you a good anniversary.” The snow stopped of course and left .3 inch of frozen slush.

    Telling my wife “I told you so” is risky. After new information confirmed that Obama and Hillary were AWOL the night of the Bengazi attack, my wife said our niece “could have been there.” “you had better find a movie to play, if you don’t want to sleep on the couch. That man’s voice won’t be in our house!” for the State of the Union address.

    Nice deb reports that Marines i “Forced to Dismantlel their Empty Parade Rifles for Obama’s Second Inauguration Parade.” That will be our little secret.

  54. “By your logic Stephen Hawking is NOT a human being.”

    Wrong. I was showing that just being dependent on the mother ship – as you had suggested – is not sufficient to make you a human. Your finger is dependent on the mother ship, but nobody would say it is human. So is the fetus, from the moment of conception. Why does that make it human, and the finger not? Simple: That’s NOT what defines humanity.

    Hawking is dependent on human-invented technology to stay alive – not another human; that does not make him human or non-human. I think you are all twisted up here.

    “Just wondering why you dismissed my Gallop poll.”

    What poll is that? That “more people are pro-life every day?” Was that it? If so – and it’s true – good for you. That still does not make you a majority, or mean you should be able to force your minority opinion – strongly held, I’ll grant you, but still a minority opinion – on everybody else.

    You can’t shut me up, guy.”

    Not trying. You have the right to express your opinion the same as anyone else. You do NOT, however, have the right to force it on others. That’s called “Minding Your Own Business.”

    “In fact, my prancing and dancing might one day change the law of the land.”

    No it won’t.

    You know where the “prance and dance” comes from, don’t you? I figured you’d pick it up immediately. It’s something on every grade school “boy’s bathroom” wall since time began:

    No matter how you prance and dance, the last few drops go in your pants.

  55. A finger and a baby in the womb share nothing in common. The finger is a part of the person. The baby IS a person. Half the DNA isn’t Mom. He’ll….it could even be a boy.

    Damn doc.. fall asleep in DNA class.

    Hawking is dependent on a mother ship.

    Man…your thumb argument is weak.

    But what is even worse is that you didn’t even give me the courtesy of clicking my link.

    Click my fucking link! It’s a Gallop Poll. Remember? You started off talking about polls and the will of the majority? What does this poll say? Does it show a “gross majority” of pro choices?

    Sure. I don’t know the how valid it is. But it certainly makes your opening salvo pretty fucking lame.

  56. So, we’re going to go from a tax cheat as Treasury Sec. to a guy who shelters money in offshore accounts as Treasury Sec.

    Kinda funny, when considering how Mitt Romney was wrongfully accused of cheating on his taxes and vilified for legally sheltering his money.

  57. PF
    By your logic, that it is not a human being because it is dependent upon the “mother ship” I wonder then. If a man goes up and shoots a pregnant woman, I would bet then you would not be for him being charged for a double murder?

  58. Did a quick search on “Pope” and “Benedict” in the comments here and see nothing. C’mon Poolman, tell us why he is really resigning. First dude in over 400 years to quit.

  59. Yet another unintended cost of Oblama care? Running so low on money we do this to the best of us?

    “I am currently in Paktika Province and we do not have breakfast or midnight meal. We are down to 2 hot meals a day ( lunch and dinner) or guys who run missions at night and work night shift only get one hot meal a day. The Battle Space owner out here instructed the Contractor who is in charge if the chow halls out here to cancel the meals. What they did not consider is that there a lot of units that are still out here and will be here for quite some time to come (my unit). I don’t know why the DOD is not owning up to the facts. It appears to me they are trying to cover up the fact that we are not being fed.”

  60. Le Roy Carhart, who piloted the plane which mistakenly landed us on an Italian air base and a night of detention became a doctor and moved to Omaha.

    One of his specialties was late term abortions. He established a practice in Omaha and abortions became a profitable business. Over the years, we visited and relived old times a couple of times, and I knew he was skating close to the edge.

    He tried to move his practice to Council Bluffs because the trail of dead babies was making his operation more difficult.Iowa passed an anti- late term abortion law specifically to keep him out of the state. He operated a Wichita friend’s abortion practice for a while after a pro-life man shot the doctor.

    (American Power)He moved to Maryland where Maryland gave him license to perform such abortions.Jennifer McKenna Morellie and her husband badly wanted a baby, and they had even named their unborn progeny. Two weeks ago “Jennifer learned her daughter suffered from fetal anomalies”, and the doctor went to work as he had done many times during his long career. The baby was about six weeks from birth.

    Jennifer was in trouble, and according to Operation Rescue, says the family and hospital staff couldn’t reach Carhart as Jennifer’s medical condition worsened.

    “This is a case not only of shoddy practices, but patient abandonment that we believe raises to the level of criminal conduct.” It was only one mother and baby, while Obama’s “shoddy practices” contributed to four deaths, but the media behaved in similar fashion. They covered up the story so it would die like Jennifer. (American Spectator:Major news media ignore woman’s reported botched abortion death).

    This bothers me in addition to the deaths, because I know the man and what he has done. Moreover our future grand daughter has been declared at risk. I also remember our unborn child,

    “Now and then I think of when we were together
    You didn’t have to cut me up
    You didn’t have to stoop so low
    Make it like it never happened
    and I was nothing
    Now you’re just somebody that I used to know.”


  61. DR – Yes, I see the poll. And, of course, we both know that poll responses depend entirely on how you ask the question, don’t we?

    But having said that, look at your own poll. The percentage of ALL folks who believe abortion should be legal under “some” circumstances has held steady at around 50% for the past forty years. Those, like yourself, who want to make it illegal under “all” circumstances has, also, held steady at under 20%. People want abortion available, even if they never use it themselves. (And everybody I have counseled about getting aborted have said the same words: “I never thought it would happen to me.”)

    Some of those people are in your family; you, being as you are, don’t know who they are, and never will. They won’t talk to you, but take it from me; they’re there. They are your aunts and nieces, your daughters, and – yes – your wife, possibly. But you will never know; only people like me will, and we will keep their secrets and they will be grateful. And you will be none the wiser.

    “If a man goes up and shoots a pregnant woman, I would bet then you would not be for him being charged for a double murder?”

    No I would not – not because there cannot be a case made for it, but because it makes the law complicated. (If the fetus is 2 months, is that murder? How about seven months? 7.5 months? 8.2?

    There are lawyers who post here occasionally; I would ask them: to my understanding, traditionally the murder of a pregnant woman has been treated as a single crime, no? Why?

  62. “By your logic, that it is not a human being because it is dependent upon the “mother ship”

    No, go back and read it again. It neither makes, nor unmakes. It is irrelevant.

  63. According to NCSL, 38 states have fetal protection laws. 23 states have laws applying to the earliest stages of pregnancy. Most of the laws focus on harm done to the pregnant woman and the subsequent loss of the fetus but not on the rights of the fetus.

  64. I am not saying this to try and silence anyone or to discourage discourse on the subject….

    But the sad fact is that, regardless of what polls say or don’t say, the abortion debate is costing Republicans elections.

    If it is a debate that is going to continue, the GOP needs a new strategy in how it engages in it.

  65. “Those, like yourself, who want to make it illegal under “all” circumstances has, also”

    I’ve never said that. Ever.

    And, viability, or the “mother ship” is the crux of Roe vs Wade. So, it’s very relevant.

    Lol….my wife. She’s the one that converted me to being pro life.

    I know who in my family has gotten abortions or paid for them. Why I’m even responding to this drivel is beyond me.

    Face it, you were full of shit about where Americans stand on abortion.

    As for Huck…I don’t think it’s losing elections for the GOP, but its possible. I’d like to see some political science behind that claim.

  66. “As for Huck…I don’t think it’s losing elections for the GOP, but its possible. I’d like to see some political science behind that claim.”

    It’s my personal opinion. Since this isn’t an academic forum, I am perfectly comfortable giving it without scientific support. You can choose to heed it or not.

    I just hope those Gallup polls are enough to console you when we keep loosing elections, in part because more women are voting Democrat instead of Republican.

  67. Based on your answer PF, there is no common ground to be had. One side has to conclusively defeat the other.

    When someone steals intellectual property, they can sue for potential earnings lost. Based upon your answer, you do not place any value on human life because of geography. I am of course assuming the nanosecond the baby is born, you are willing to call it life and murder if anyone were to cause the death of the baby from that point on. But while it is inside, it has no value, no rights.

    I would charge with a double murder. Potential of enough. That it has the ability to become that which we would protect once it reaches a geographical location of your approval is enough for me to say it warrants our protection from conception to the end of its life.

    btw I am not being snarky or sarcastic…I just think if you have the impossible task of having to define where life begins. If you say at one point, it has no rights, but at another it does, then in my mind you are required to pinpoint that exact moment when those rights begin, a task I think is impossible. If I am correct, and it is not possible, then we have always error on the side of caution in this country on the side of protecting the innocent.

  68. “It’s my personal opinion. Since this isn’t an academic forum, I am perfectly comfortable giving it without scientific support.”-Hucking

    Of course you do. Because you are talking total shit. Just like Pfessor was when he was talking about his mighty 70% and the will of the people. Complete bunk.

    But even if you are correct, go blow your GOP. I can’t stand half the hair helmet liars anyways. Ultimately, my “prancing and dancing” is bigger then the latest Republican douche bag you feel I should abandon my values over. Not only are people becoming less pro-choice, people are getting less abortions. That means less babies in the womb killed for cowardly reasons like “it will make Daddy mad” or “interfere with school.”

  69. “I just hope those Gallup polls are enough to console you when we keep loosing elections,”

    How rude of me. I forgot to answer. Yes, they do console me. Thanks.

  70. Huck
    I have always considered the Conservative party to be a morals based party. I think we are doing ourselves a disservice when we start making our choices based on polls or winning elections rather than fighting for whats right.

  71. “And everybody I have counseled about getting aborted have said the same words: “I never thought it would happen to me.”) ”

    I’m sorry PF but your grammatical slip here cracked me up. I picture you having a rap session with a fetus prior to its getting whacked. Indeed, the fetus WOULD say “never thought it would happen to me.” 🙂

  72. I see no one wants to comment on the legacy of Pope Benny the pedo protector.

    I need to correct my prior comment. It’s been 600 years since the last Papal resignation, not 400 as I said earlier.

  73. I wasnt going to watch but I stated in a little late watched the state of the union anyway. Just as I suspected, nice bit of fiction, political theater. I don’t buy any of it. His goal, to placate the masses a little while longer while he continues on, business as usual. Where were all your grand plans 4 years ago Mr. President?

  74. “Noah there is no Conservative party. There is the Republican Party. There is the conservative movement to which most Republicans belong.”

    I respectfully disagree. Still waiting on you to man up.

  75. “I see it as a freedom based party. No freedom in being chopped to pieces in the womb.”

    I agree but I also see it as both. As I wrote on another blog, it is ignorant, uninformed people that think the only solution to a problem is to limit another freedom. Liberals are the do as I say, or else, party. Do as I say, or I’ll make a law and you will do as I say, or I’ll put you in prison until you do as I say. In other countries they call them dictators.

  76. “Ultimately, my “prancing and dancing” is bigger then the latest Republican douche bag you feel I should abandon my values over.”

    “I have always considered the Conservative party to be a morals based party. I think we are doing ourselves a disservice when we start making our choices based on polls or winning elections rather than fighting for whats right.”

    Let’s review what I said.

    “If it is a debate that is going to continue, the GOP needs a new strategy in how it engages in it.”

    Please point out where I even hinted that anyone should abandon their values.

    I didn’t suggest anyone give up their fight. I suggested a change in the tactics of how it is fought.

    A lot of good it would do to cite political science when people around here aren’t even reading simple sentences with a basic level of comprehension.

    The GOP that you had no problems voting for last November is getting its ass kicked in messaging. And one of those messages is the ridiculous “war on women” meme, which has been largely driven by the abortion debate. You can talk about Gallup and Plato and Steven Hawking all you want. Meanwhile, Barack Obama delivers another State of the Union address. I hope you enjoyed it.

  77. Oh the finger wagging that would be coming from you, Rutherford, had this guy’s politics been the opposite. Instead, we get a matter of fact comment on his death buried in the comment section. Watch this turn into the radical left’s Waco.

  78. “I just hope those Gallup polls are enough to console you when we keep loosing elections, in part because more women are voting Democrat instead of Republican.”-Hucking

    Yeah. Here’s your hint.

    Was my tactic of calling out Pfessor’s total bull shit unsavory to you?

    What tatic is there? Hiding being pro life. Just start shoe gazing when the subject is brought up? Politicians have tried that.

    Fuck tactics. Call it like you see it. Lose elections if need be. You do realize, that at the end of the day, the only politician capable of saving us, will have to take on that role for a myriad of reasons.

  79. “Please point out where I even hinted that anyone should abandon their values.”

    “I just hope those Gallup polls are enough to console you when we keep loosing elections, in part because more women are voting Democrat instead of Republican.”

    I think this falls under the category of a hint…at the very least suggestive.

    “A lot of good it would do to cite political science when people around here aren’t even reading simple sentences with a basic level of comprehension.”

    Help us with our ignorance anyway. I may be beneath you educationally, but do me the charity of presenting a substantive argument despite my shortcomings.

    “The GOP that you had no problems voting for last November is getting its ass kicked in messaging. And one of those messages is the ridiculous “war on women” meme, which has been largely driven by the abortion debate.”

    This is the conversation Liberals are having with other Liberals. They say something, then one of their own backs it up, then yet another Liberal uses it as a cited reference and it suddenly becomes fact.

  80. Lastly, I have showed evidence that the pro life’s tactics have, in fact, worked. I can show you more.

    Your response….is well….you don’t have one. It’s not an academic blog.

  81. I answered your point, bottom line that for me. Was I correct on the suggestive nature of your comment? I dont care if I am right, I care you feel it was an unwarranted to take that from what you said.

  82. Point 2, separate from above, This link, or more to the point, your reasons for showing it, are again suggestive, at least to me. Even Oblama admitted we have failing morals in this country. So do we look to these polls, and decide to support by what is popular, or do we support what we know to be right?

  83. “Lastly, I have showed evidence that the pro life’s tactics have, in fact, worked.”

    What you’ve shown doesn’t refute what I said. The 2 aren’t mutually exclusive.

    And why do you care, anyway. Since you are now some post-political white knight galluping (see what I did there?) around on your high horse, what do you care about whether or not I suggest the GOP change tactics on its anti-abortion messaging? It obviously doesn’t apply to you.

  84. “I haven’t shown shit where it matters.”

    I don’t even get that. I’ve only really made two claims. Pfessor’s mighty 70 percent was garbage. And you haven’t remotely correlated abortion to the election.

    That’s it.

    If this stresses you out or angers you, by all means, just disengage, dude. No need having your health issues kick in again.

  85. “Was I correct on the suggestive nature of your comment?”

    No. You weren’t. I haven’t made that more than clear?

    “Correlate it to abortion.”

    Correlate your poll to elections.

    Oh that’s right…you suddenly don’t care about elections.


  86. “If this stresses you out or angers you, by all means, just disengage, dude.”

    Pretty funny coming from the guy who suddenly doesn’t care about politics.

  87. Well, I never agreed with your premise. However, I did say that even if true, I wouldn’t care.

    I rather a Republican lose the election if he’s too much of a pusy to call it likes he sees it when it comes to babies in the womb. Hell, I’d rather vote for a pro choice candidate then some one who goes against their own conscious on such a existential matter…human life.

  88. Remember, I’m the one here who said Romney should have uttered the words “War on babies.” I’m the one that said he should have asked Obama if the answer to when life begins is above the president’s pay grade. That is changing tactics.

    If you want to go with the morons who walk around saying a uterus shuts down during a rape, be my guest, man. At least he’s calling it like he sees it, right?

  89. “Women and Abortion. There are only modest gender differences in opinions about legal abortion. But women are much more likely than men to favor the Democrats and Obama on this issue. Women voters also place greater importance on this issue than do men.

    Narrow majorities of both women (55%) and men (51%) say that abortions should be legal in all or most cases.

    However, women voters favor the Democrats on abortion by 52% to 32%. And Obama’s lead over Romney is about as large on social issues like abortion and gay rights (53% to 32%). Men side with the Democrats and Obama by 10 points and six points, respectively.

    Women also are more likely than men to view abortion as a top voting issue. In April, 44% of women said that the issue of abortion would be very important in their decision about who to vote for. Only about a third of men (34%) said that abortion would be very important to their vote.”

    But I guess we’ve already established that it really doesn’t matter if I am right.

    The guy who cries about the debt Democrats are putting on his kids suddenly doesn’t care if they win elections because elections aren’t important anymore.

    What a joke.

  90. If you cannot admit there was an obvious point to your comment, intentional or unintentional, when 2 different people make the same point, then I cannot help you. I can admit the possibility exists that it was not your intention to suggest that. But then again I have no comprehension skills so…

  91. “The guy who cries about the debt Democrats are putting on his kids suddenly doesn’t care if they win elections because elections aren’t important anymore.

    What a joke.”

    Again, the build up for an argument to compromise our morality. If we don’t concede on abortion, we by default don’t care about debt. Sorry, not buying it.

  92. Fuck the party. One should always hold to their own moral convictions, given they have them. Otherwise, what is the point? There are areas of no compromise, which is normal for most everyone excepting politicians. Their no compromise only comes in play when discussing their own needs. Psychopaths – like they are for the most part – do not empathize or follow any moral code.

    National elections don’t seem to alter the course we’re on. Things changed after 9/11 and they (politicians/legislators) are scrambling to create a framework to legalize their past and ongoing sins against us and the Constitution. That one event has proven the tipping point.

    Rutherford, I have no idea why the Pope is stepping down. I disassociated myself from the Catholic hierarchy long, long ago. I’ll see if Brother Nathaniel has a clue and get back with you.

  93. alfie – this morning I understand your WOW re the Catholic Church. Of course they are against abortion I understand their reason. I was referring to their recent aggressive stand on the birth control issue. They need to update because few Catholics agree with it or practice it in the US. But I do have a problem when they allow a mother to die when the fetus that has no chance of survival but is killing the mother. Taking the fetus would have saved the mother and allowed her to go home to her other children. When you have the ability to save one of those lives is should be allowed rather than to lose both, IMO.

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