It’s Beginning to Look A Lot Like Nixon

To paraphrase the old Christmas chestnut, it’s beginning to look a lot like Nixon, at least if you watch Fox News, read the conservative press or pay attention to Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President of the National Rifle Association (NRA).

The furor is over Barack Obama’s decision to declare Executive Privilege and not release documents requested in a congressional probe of the botched drug war operation Fast and Furious. Because the botched operation touches upon one of conservative’s hottest of hot buttons, gun control, speculation has spun out of control and we now seem to have a Watergate in the making, except instead of a failed two-bit break-in we’ve got a lot of dead bodies including one US border patrol agent name Brian Terry.

As with so many Washington “scandals” it is hard to separate fact from fiction. I’ve watched a good number of talking heads and read columns including The National Journal’s Major Garrett and The Washington Post’s Eugene Robinson. These are the facts I can piece together:

  • Dating back as far as 2005, we have run operations out of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) under the Justice Department, to track illegal gun sales and attempt to trace them back to the big players at the receiving end, typically drug cartel warlords in Mexico. The approach is to allow the gun sale and then see where the guns go.
  • The first such attempt was called Operation Gun Runner.
  • The second attempt was called Operation Wide Receiver. These first two operations were conducted during the Bush administration. The inventory of guns allowed to slip through the cracks was limited, carefully tracked, and coordinated with the Mexican government.
  • The third attempt initiated under the Obama administration was called Fast and Furious. What made this attempt stand out was the lack of control over the inventory and the higher volume of inventory allowed to be illegally sold. Damning the program to utter failure were the fatalities traced back to F&F weapons.
  • Depending on which source you read, border patrol officer Brian Terry was killed by one of the guns in F&F. Alternative reports indicate that no F&F weapon was definitively tied to Terry’s death by any ballistic test.

The operation was shut down by the Justice Department, and folks were fired or reprimanded. Despite that, the botched operation attracted the attention of a congressional oversight committee led by California Representative Darrell Issa (R) and a year’s worth of investigation has resulted in the recommendation of a contempt citation against Attorney General Eric Holder.

While Holder’s department did what it was supposed to do in shutting the program down and punishing those negligent, Holder made life difficult for himself by telling the oversight committee that he had no knowledge of F&F when documents later surfaced that contradicted that assertion. So are conservatives simply in an uproar over an Attorney General who might have lied to save face? No, it runs deeper than that. Deep enough that we get into very paranoid territory. On her MSNBC show, Rachel Maddow spells out the origin of the F&F controversy and one of the main players who sparked concern about the operation, a crackpot named Michael Vanderboegh who in 2010 advocated vandalizing Democratic headquarters across the nation to protest “Obamacare”.

So the story goes that the Obama administration deliberately fed an out of control gun sale in the hopes that enough folks would get killed to turn American opinion in favor of greater gun control. As shown in the Maddow piece, the attitude of conservatives toward the Obama administration vis-a-vis gun control is outright irrational. In a “woman on the street” interview, an Alaskan woman tells Maddow “I don’t have all the facts but I know that [Holder is] anti-gun.” Of course this flies in the face of the fact that the gun control advocacy group The Brady Campaign gave Obama an “F” on gun control. But don’t let his poor record fool you. Wayne LaPierre declares that Obama has done nothing on gun control in order to lull the American people into a comfort zone so that he can steal their guns in his second term. Sadly, a number of otherwise intelligent Americans are buying this paranoid nonsense wholesale.

If we come back to reality for a moment, the current American statistics are sober enough that no intentional out of control gun running scheme is necessary to convince America of the need for gun control. According to Demos Fellow Bob Herbert (in a subsequent interview by Maddow) three people will die from gun violence in the next hour. That comes to about 30,000 gun fatalities a year. Folks who misread the second amendment do not care about these statistics and no increase in dead Mexicans or a dead US border patrol agent will change their mind. Instead it’s easier to simply say Obama and Holder killed Brian Terry so we all can willingly give up our second amendment rights. Absurd.

So where does this leave us with the Executive Privilege claim by Obama? Even Darrell Issa said today that he has no proof of a concerted effort by the White House to mislead Congress on Fast and Furious. Yet Executive Privilege claims smell fishy more often than not. My guess is that Obama did this as a power play to spit in the face of what he views as an overzealous prosecution by Congress. My personal recommendation, as if Obama listens to me, would be to withdraw the Executive Privilege claim and supply all requested documents. That way you don’t look like you have something to hide and you don’t feed the loonies and their conspiracy theories.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

Photo mashup originally appeared on The Drudge Report.

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455 thoughts on “It’s Beginning to Look A Lot Like Nixon

  1. A better liberal spin with a view not unlike that of your own non Maddow blurbs via Robinson @ WaPo
    Please source the firings…I am not aware of any.
    Also Although you and more so Robinson may have a point regards Issa I think you fail to see this in full context of the leak,cover up,under the bus triad Obama has embraced.
    In my rage and disappointment I can muster that I agree with two of your themes.
    1) Obama should’ve let Holder hang thus distancing himself. I know that’s not your view exactly but it is what would’ve happened without EP.
    2) People do blame Obama for much that outliers are actually guilty of,even if said outliers are Cabinet close. Holder is ANTI-GUN as noted in your Maddow praising blubbering:

    “I don’t have all the facts but I know that [Holder is] anti-gun.” Of course this flies in the face of the fact that the gun control advocacy group The Brady Campaign gave Obama an “F” on gun control.

    (nice touch finding an Alaskan too)
    However there once was a (D) @1600 with a desk sign that read “The Buck Stops Here”. Unfortunately Truman is not one of the former POTUS that BHO has chosen to embrace,sully or invoke.

  2. Boy, this one really is full of lies and lib innuendo….

    Rachel Maddow and Eugene Racist Robinson as source? Well that’s surely credible. 😆

    Wasn’t Bill Maher available? Holder’s been busted at least three times now for lying.

    By the way, Rutherford. I know facts and truth don’t much interest you anymore in your lame defense of dismal failure, but you of all people since you live there should know that Chicago has some of the toughest gun control laws in the United States. So far this year, more men (and virtually all black Eugene and Chaz as you make excuse) have lost their lives in Chicago from gunshots than American soldiers in Afghanistan. Want to explain that?

    So I’ll repeat this again since you so conveniently skipped over my post from the last thread. I’ve noticed you do that when there’s no answer.

    ————-

    That’s okay, “R”. The NRA gave Obama an ‘F’ too. First President in history to be hated by both sides, Brother “R”. How’s it feel to have attached your personal worth to such a pile of shit?

    It should be obvious Mr. Rutherford why your liar-in-chief has had to back off his initial promises of more gun control. One, it doesn’t work as Chicago aptly demonstrates. But more importantly to lackeys like you, gun control is bad politics. So Obama, since he’s such a slimy bastard does it back door.

    Obama strongly supports the UN Arms Trade Treaty; he nominates gun control advocate Andrew Traver, someone who supports gun bans, as the head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives; then he gives us the hag Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan, who pushed for Clinton’s push for gun control.

  3. Ha. Fucking anti aircraft gun even walked. Hundreds shot dead with thousands of weapons sold to the drug cartels of Mexico behind Mexico’s back and the only thing our so called liberal blogger seems to care about is what his boyfriend POTUS does or doesn’t do to look like a peach. Alice and Wonderland shit. Gun control libs now attempt to down play a scheme where the United States purposly releases guns to bad guys. The irony would be funny if so many didn’t die.

  4. So let me get this straight, because Madcow told you there was nothing to this, you’re assuming that this is hyperbole?

    OK, you keep thinking that man. I hope it works out for you…

  5. R, you’ve got the MSNBC shit down. Maybe you’ll focus on the real issues in the comments section. Holder and your Greek God Obama haven’t done the right things here by any stretch.

  6. OT –

    As of 12 noon today, I’m a free man. It feels goooooooooood. Fuck the Evil Empire. I will injure them some day. Just not today. In honor of this fine day, I give you Mike Pinder:

    One life could hold the pleasure I’ve had listening to the Moody Blues since my roomie introduced me to them in 1972. I saw them in DC two Aprils ago and ten years before that in Charleston, WV. Timeless, timeless music. Now I can finally enjoy their music in “perfect peace.”

  7. Alfie @ 3, The acting head of the ATF and the US Atty General for AZ have been fired over this. Also this guy Michael Vanderboegh is quite an interesting character. He’s the one that told Grassley if he didn’t investigate he would accuse him of a cover up. He also helped originate this site:

    http://cleanupatf.org/

    Vanderboegh is not exactly the kind of guy the neocons generally embrace, but I guess they’ll hitch on any ride going their way.

    Fiery rhetoric about resistance and revolution isn’t new for Vanderboegh, though the origins of his activism may seem a bit incongruous. “I used to be a communist,” he says. Vanderboegh, who is in his late 50s, claims he joined the anti-war movement in 1967, first with Students for a Democratic Society, then the Socialist Workers Party, and eventually the Maoist Progressive Labor Party.

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/12/fast-and-furious-scandal-mike-vanderboegh

  8. Congrats Pfessor.

    Pure euphoria for you right now.

    I can remotely identify from getting summers off and getting out of the military.

    If your anything like the Rabbit, you will realize you always return to the same equilibrium of happiness, no matter what the circumstances. In this regard, the Hindus are correct. Within you, without you, as the Beatles song goes.

  9. Poolman, many thanks for the added research regarding firings and Vanderbeogh. It should also be noted that the NRA threatened any GOPher who did not vote for contempt against Holder that their NRA rating would be negatively impacted.

    The great irony here is that contrary to some cockamamie scheme to increase gun control in the US, what we have here is a crackpot/NRA scheme to maintain the status quo on gun control or make it more lax.

    I hope those criticizing the Maddow piece actually watched it.

    Understand … the only way we know that Obama is “clean” on this is for him to act clean. After what I’ve read and heard I don’t believe the executive privilege claim helps him. I think Holder had a completely messed up operation on his hands. He killed it, probably too late. That’s really the bottom line to this. Issa went a bit soft on this today on Fox because he probably knows in an election year this just ain’t gonna fly. The average American wants a job. He doesn’t care about dead Mexicans or quite frankly about Brian Terry — apologies to the Terry family.

  10. The NRA have the moral high ground to exert any political pressure they see fit. Dude, the government was arming criminals while complaining American gun owners are the reason so many said criminals are armed. Fuck yeah the NRA went on the offensive on this one. For fucks sake, turn the tv off and just write a blog for once.

  11. The great irony here is that gun control libs like yourself put quotations next to the word scandal when its about unleashing THOUSANDS OF GUNS TO INSANE MEXICAN KILLERS

  12. I don’t see how any objective observer could deny that Operation F&F is a scandal (not a “scandal” – implying that it is NOT) of the first order. For God’s sake, Rutherford – this was an illegal gun-running operation, conceived of, funded and administered by a sovereign government and carried out on the soil of ANOTHER sovereign country – without its consent or knowledge – and resulting in the death of at least 200 of its citizens. If that ain’t a scandal – if not an outright act of war – I don’t know what is.

    And if that isn’t enough, this operation was carried out with the express purpose of generating bogus “facts” (Quotes are apropos there!) to ultimately use in depriving American citizens of rights guaranteed by their Constitution. This is a crime in my mind that rises to the level of treason – and I do not use that word lightly.

    The Lamestream Press’ comparing a botched burglary – which brought down a Presidency – to this incomparable outrage is the height of disingenuousness and incompetence.

    And they wonder why people are getting their news from the blogs…

  13. Congratulations Pfessor. The Moody Blues is a good choice. The morning the Air Force sent me out of the US, my wife was already at work teaching school. I left a tape of We Five’s “You were on my Mind,” and the Moody Blues “Nights in White Satin” under my wife’s pillow.

    Rutherford, you are still obfuscating. What matters are why did Eric Holder withhold documents the committee requested, and why did Obama keep them secret with executive privilege? What are they hiding?

    LIberals accused people like Rush and Sarah of causing the Arizona shootings and the Tea Party of racism. They set the rules, and if we use their prospective, circumstantial evidence shows that someone intended to use Fast and Furious to subvert the Second Amendment. Review what we wrote on the last thread and try to refute our musings.

    Otherwise, they were so inept that they couldn’t trace guns as the Bush plan did. Malice or ineptitude killed hundreds of people. Both deserve punishment.

    You can’t can’t disprove us, because Obama is hiding the documents which might prove us wrong. You have trapped yourself in liberal dogma, and I don’t think you can extracate yourself.

    If you set the rules by citing and trusting Racheal Maddow, Your decision will let me cite Conservapedia or Rush with no criticism from you.

    Fast and Furious was a major operation which killed at least 300 innocent people. Do you really believe the few sacrificial lambs already fired or disciplined were the people who conceived and implemented the plan? You are blind if you do.

  14. You are as wrong as NOP was on the other blog, when she wrote that our flood was a little hangnail unworthy of Obama’s attention. Each day the wind blows large clouds of sand create ground blizzards and in some cases cut corn plants to ribbons.

    Hamburg, iowa is stating a flash mob today to raise $1.5 million to pay for a damaged dike. NOP assured me that the government would pay all of our bills. You assured us that the “scandal” is unworthy of our time. The liberal-progressive theology has so corrupted your minds, I would ask the same question of you both.

    “What color is the sky in your world?”

  15. The Attorney resigned and the acting head was reassigned,still on the govt rolls. Some will call it semantics but nobody was fired and no great shakeup occurred.
    As for the deflection of perceived roots of the aggressive investigations from Congress…..irrelevant. It would be one thing if a string of shit bags got Congress to act on nothing. This whole show is far from nothing.

  16. Actually Rutherford #15… the average American embraces every little nugget he/she comes across to eventually exert the final effort to experience political orgasm. Many did that in 2008 and in 2012 it is what will be the fundamental thing that defeats Obama.

  17. And just for the record HOW DARE anyone who drinks as much activist/reactionist alternate theory Kool Aid as you pool man call out anybody on anything….just saying

  18. FACT- every jurisdiction that has introduced concealed carry has seen violent crime go down.

    FACT- Chicago has the toughest gun laws in the country, and the highest violent crime rate.

    FACT- criminals do not buy their guns in gun stores.

    FACT- for F&F, the gun dealers- under instruction FROM the ATF- IGNORED existing guns laws, which would have prevented the straw purchaser sales.

    R, criminals do not target people that they think will fight back. They go for the weak and unprotected. We’ve had a gun discussion before, and you didn’t do so well then either…

  19. Well, if you guys would like the real story and background, and not some lame defense of two known liars (Holder = Marc Rich), then read Teresa in Ft. Worth’s work on her blog.

    It’s a hell of a lot better than this POS. Much better.

    Nice job Teresa.

  20. What an odd place to be put — to be anti-gun, yet having to defend the illegal sale of weapons to some of the most violent criminals in the world. What an odd juxtaposition to be put in. How much cognitive dissonance does it take to resolve this in one’s mind?

    If any group should be “up in arms” over this, it should be the Left! The reality was that we knowingly allowed a mind-boggling number of straw-sales to take place (an act that would land an average citizen in jail) to find out where they were going? And we allowed this to happen unfettered? You can’t defend Obama on this and not defend what was done. The Left should be demanding answers louder than the Right.

    And please, no gun-control dogma. Compare Florida to Chicago or DC. In almost all cases, the areas in the U.S. with the fewest gun control laws and also the highest gun ownership rates also have the lowest crime levels. If guns are the problem, then why is it that those areas with the most guns have the lowest crime levels?

    This is especially true of the states that have enacted concealed carry laws. Even though gun control advocates say that conceal carry laws will lead to higher crime, “blood on our streets”, and “wild west shootouts”, just the opposite has occurred. Those states that have done so have seen their crime rates immediately fall and continue to do so at rates in most cases faster than the national average. One of the best examples is here in Florida. Prior to the enactment of concealed carry laws in the late 80s, the crime rate in Florida was higher than the national average. However, following the enactment of the concealed carry law, the crime rate immediately began to drop and has continued to do so to this day. In fact, today the crime levels in Florida are lower than the national average. Not to mention, that the state with the lowest crime rate, Vermont, also happens to be the state with the fewest gun control laws. The fact is that those areas in the U.S. with the fewest gun restrictions and highest gun ownership rates also have the lowest crime rates.

  21. Another thing, Hamburg, Iowa must raise so much money for the dike because the federal government says it must meet regulations bureaucrats have set.

    Otherwise, they could manage without a fund -raiser. One more example of our government’s over -reach is its forbidding Tombstone, Arizona from rebuilding the part of their water system damaged by floods.

    Fast and Furious is just another face of the government’s descent into autocracy. People suffer the consequences of bureaucrat’s actions, but the instigators remain faceless. That is what this investigation is about.

    The gun statistics are interesting. “Newsroom” star Emily Mortimer said Obama is in trouble because Americans are uninformed. Her home country of Britain has a better news service. She also called the Tea Party a lunitic fringe.

    By her standards, I submit to you that one difference between Montana and Chicago is not gun laws but culture. Montanians still adhere to traditional attitudes and values while big city shooters believe something else.

    Sarah Palin was reviled when she said in West Virginia, I think, that it felt good to be among real Americans. Again, using the template of progressives like Emily Mortimer, Palin was right. That also applies to the architects of Fast and Furious.

  22. What an odd place to be put — to be anti-gun, yet having to defend the illegal sale of weapons to some of the most violent criminals in the world.

    Ken, to quote Richard Nixon, if the President does it, it’s not illegal. 😉

    Seriously, who defended Fast and Furious here? I think it’s an operation fraught with risk but if you’re gonna do it, you need to do it the Bush way and keep proper track of what you’re doing.

    I’m anti-gun (in the wrong hands) and I’m also anti-F&F. The program was stopped, folks were disciplined and now the only question that remains is why the appearance of cover-up? That’s the problem with the executive privilege move.

  23. “[T]he only question that remains is why the appearance of cover-up? That’s the problem with the executive privilege move”.

    To explain away?????

    I love your naivete. It’s cute. In a really, really homosexual way.

  24. And just for the record HOW DARE anyone who drinks as much activist/reactionist alternate theory Kool Aid as you pool man call out anybody on anything….just saying

    This from one who claims to support the FOIA, yet denies the truths they reveal. This from one who doesn’t watch videos. Pffftt!!!

    Don’t get too riled, you might dislodge your intravenous Uncle Sam drip.

  25. Noah, regarding 950 from the prior thread, I never said his rating as a liberal Senator was a lie. But when Whittle trots this out without ALSO saying that his rating on gun control was abysmal, then Whittle is manipulating info to suit his conclusion.

  26. Tex,

    The Muslim Brotherhood has been exposed as a concoction of our government to stealthily control the region. Uncle Sam has once again duped the masses!

  27. I don’t see how any objective observer could deny that Operation F&F is a scandal (not a “scandal” – implying that it is NOT) of the first order. … etc etc

    There is so much over the top in this comment PF that I’m surprised it’s coming from you.

    I haven’t done sufficient research to know where the Mexican government stands on this. I doubt they see it as an act of war … even the most liberal media wouldn’t be able to keep that under wraps.

    To you and Rabbit (I have lots of comments yet to read) I would say if you are upset with the execution, I am with you 100%. If you are upset with the concept then I call you a hypocrite because the concept did not begin with Obama. So sale of guns to crooks is either wrong for Obama AND Bush or it’s not.

    And I’ve already addressed just how bored you must be to have to conjure up some back door method of greater gun control by losing control of guns across the border. It is one of the nuttiest conspiracy theories to come along in a while and how you can sign up for it is beyond me.

  28. “It is one of the nuttiest conspiracy theories to come along in a while and how you can sign up for it is beyond me.”

    Yeah. . . except for the memos and executive privilege (the legitimate scope of which you don’t seem to have bothered contemplating).

    We’re all nuts R! So were the media outlets raining questions over a year ago.

    Back to the Obama Purity Station for an objective look at the issues. . . 🙄

  29. I am with you 100%. If you are upset with the concept then I call you a hypocrite because the concept did not begin with Obama. So sale of guns to crooks is either wrong for Obama AND Bush or it’s not.

    If you don’t discern the difference between Wide Receiver vis-a-vis Fast & Furious as several of us have documented clearly here, then you’re flat out, brainwashed stupid – you’re one of the fawning, free gas and food fools. There is no other answer.

    As profoundly stupid as believing the Muslim Brotherhood was concocted by our government.

  30. Yeah. Same thing. One working with the Mexican government, one simply arming enemy factions with thousands of guns. Same thing.

    Read up on what the Mexicans think about. You liberals like to toss around the word “imperialism”. Well, here you go.

    I bet Obama is hiding the truth because this was such a brazen act of war towards Mexico.

    As for the conspiracy, I have no proof and its inmaterial if you are pro 2nd amendment. The government was blaming American citizens for losing guns in Mexico. The opposite was true. The only conspiracy is if Holder or Obama planned it all.

  31. poolman I do support FOIA. Just because I don’t find the items often revealed, especially those taken hyper out of context as great aha moments like you and the nutters doesn’t mean anything.Almost any of the great moments you find so important (Northwoods for ex.) are pathetic examples of only gobbling up headline goo and not being interested in the full truth. Now you and yours level that charge against me and mine but that is your way. The truth doesn’t live confined to some loser in his moms basement with a fucking tin foil hat on who’s perception of truth is so narrow its laughable.
    As for not watching video embeds its all about what I deem worth my time. A video from you is not worth my time.

  32. Rutherford you shouldn’t discount ATF and greater law enforcements disdain for gun ownership. It is upon that peg I hang F&F’s domestic hat.

  33. This is classic Rutherford. Dude sold his soul to a man. Can you imagine how hard it will be for Rutherford to ever write a blog about things that are core values to him? He even sold out on being a liberal. Plain and simple. Rutherford sucks cock. Did you ever think you would see the day when a gun control liberal would down play releasing thousands of guns to people who threaten to kill the kids in elementary schools if the teacher doesn’t pay tribute? People who decapitate teen agers by the dozens, even rolling one of the heads out on a dance floor to terrorize the locals.

    Ha. Your wrongheadedness used to evoke frustration amd anger out of me. Now, you make me laugh because respecting you has become impossible. Hell, its starting to mutate into pity. How ironic, your blogging life morphing into the one thing you always detested in real life…pity.

  34. Why I do this I’ll never know. I see where pool man buys into info wars and Seymour Hersh fantasia links about the US supporting MB in a grand scheme to unsettle Iran.
    This kind of shit is what happens when people think a web page or a released document here or there combined with a shitbag wordsmith like Hersh is groundbreaking news.
    People that look at the Middle East in this way are just as bad as the Robert Spencer view folks.
    So let me get this straight. The USA first hated Egyptian militant nationalism,then supported the military regimes for decades specifically so said regimes would put a leash on Islamists such as MB only so some day we could then support MB secretly so as to benefit from the near mythical Sunni-Shiite divide.
    I can’t be the only guy that sees so many trailer size holes in that.

  35. @ dead rabbit 49 that is a heavy comment but speaks to something I’ve been wondering about Rutherford and to a lesser degree the Right regards their views on Obama.
    I don’t know how folks on the right can continue to see Obama as a liberal socialist tyrant. I see clearly where they can view him as incompetent and dangerous.
    For Rutherford & Co. I wonder how they see him. Seriously you can’t truly believe “it was Bush’s fault” and “he was obstructed by indignant GOP’ers in Congress” covers his deeds,misdeeds and overall record.

  36. SCOTUS rules on AZ immigration law….
    I don’t think it helps either POTUS candidate but it surely helps states who are anti-illegals
    Supposedly Thursday is ObamaCares big day….
    Now that could prove to be a shot heard round the world moment.

  37. Rutherford is doing as well as anyone could under the circumstances. His case is too weak to pursue.

    And Poolman to believe the Muslim Brotherhood is a government plot comes straight from the Twilight Zone. Obama was duped by his liberal vision and his imagionary ability to control events through the force of his personality and eliquence.

  38. “If you are upset with the concept then I call you a hypocrite because the concept did not begin with Obama.”

    What does this have to do with anything Rutherford? Why does the concept have to be original to Obama and for that matter what doesn’t it matter? This statement like so many others is meaningless and besides the point. You are like a drowning man grasping at anything to excuse your Messiah.

    Few questions for you…my man…

    Could you explain post 26 to me and prove how it is wrong?

    “According to Demos Fellow Bob Herbert (in a subsequent interview by Maddow) three people will die from gun violence in the next hour. That comes to about 30,000 gun fatalities a year.”

    I do like a cup of hypocrisy with my toast in the morning. I seem to recall one of your defense of the OWS folks was whenever you get that many people together, statistically speaking, bad things are bound to happen. Why is the same not true for guns and gun owners? Is it your opinion we should punish people who use it properly because of those that abuse it? If your answer is the right and logical one, it should hold true in other situations yes? Should we then ban food because of obese people over eat? Explain to me this little bit of logic.

    “I can’t take a man seriously when he looks me in the eye and lies to me. Whittle is a liar and manipulator. I don’t know why I bother to watch the vids you guys post of him.”

    “I never said his rating as a liberal Senator was a lie. But when Whittle trots this out without ALSO saying that his rating on gun control was abysmal, then Whittle is manipulating info to suit his conclusion.”

    Get on the video and give me the start of the lie to the end of the lie on the second counter of the video. I hear you are a fan of preciseness. Be precise, I want to know the exact lie word for word. I would also like to note that once again, it seems you found a single word you took issue with, and ignored the substance of the post. Go borrow 2 cups of integrity from your neighbor and give it a shot again. You may find the experience rewarding.

    Your entire post on this thread reads like an excuse. Not one of your comments can stand on its own. Everything is predicated based on your opinion of something the Republicans did or believed. Strip away all of your Leftist Republican rhetoric and your post is something out of a middle school debate club. There are so many irrelevant points in your article again you come off as being desperate.

    Lets bottom line this.
    1. Did a botched operation occur in your eyes?
    2. Was there incompetence in execution that could/should have been avoided?
    3. If 2 is yes, should those in leadership be held accountable?
    4. Was there lies told when the investigation took place. (Lie being defined as not giving accurate information)
    5. By claiming executive privileged rather than invoking the 5th amendment, Obama has, by default, implicated himself in this situation. Do you feel then we need an independent probe into what really happened? If no then why?

    I will let you chew on this some and continue on in another post as this one is getting long.

  39. It seems to me the Supreme Court got the Arizona ruling perfect. Fuck no should the cops be able to willy nilly pull you over if you “look” illeagal. Fuck yes should the cops require proof of citizenship if they pull you over for something else.

  40. Legitinate point, Tigre. Always remember Jon Stewart & Stephen Corncob.

    Akin to the Unholy Trinity: (1) MSNBC, (2) Jon Stewart, (3) Bill Maher.

    Should be a matter of days now before we’re using the NYTimes, Wapo, and Hollywood Gossip column as deep digging fact.

  41. Thanks for article, Raji. One of the best I’ve seen.

    But don’t expect Foolman™ or Rutherford to pay much heed.

    Rutherford’s eyes glaze over when he doesn’t see the words worship, respect or love attached to the name Obama.

    And Foolman™ is simply glazed, probably chanting Allahu Akbar, Ūršalaym in the dungeon.

  42. dead rabbit, I agree with you about the Supreme Court decision.
    Yes, that article Ragi linked should be posted on refrigerator doors. it is a good one.

    I think Obama fell into the same trap Bush did when he encouraged the Egyptians and West Bank to be more democratic. The result was the wrong people took power in Palastine, and the Muslim Brotherhood gained some political influence in Egypt.

    I think the administration should have had a little chat with Mubarick and told him he had been a good friend, but it was time to leave. Threats and bribes should have convinced him to exit. His departure combined with some concessions and new faces less connected with oppression than the existing ones would have eased the tensions enough to keep the lid from blowing. The people would still have been angry but not in a revolutionary mood, especially if they had a little more freedom..

    Such a ploy may have failed, but it’s success might have preserved more of our influence and kept Egypt from becoming as extremist as it appears now.

    I believe Obama thought the Arab Spring was a Jeffersonian movement which would create a relatively liberal society. It would enhance his credentials of wonderfulness as the revolution evolved into a secular society. Obama didn’t understand groups like the Muslim Brotherhood had the organization and skill to usurp the revolution as the Bolshevics did in Russia..

  43. I think Egypt was destined to go the way it did and that in some ways it is good it happened sooner than later.
    I think there was no way anything even remotely connected to Mubarak and the military was destined to succeed. This is Egypts enema moment and as I said it is coming at a good time.In all the symbolism that is the treatment we indeed will see some _ _ _ _

    Putin was in Israel which I think has some legs in many sectors including Syria,Egypt and Iran. It also speaks to how badly positioned the USA and Hillary’s State Dept. is. You need another reason to defeat O in Nov? BOOM there it is.

  44. @Rutherford (40) “The program was stopped, folks were disciplined and now the only question that remains is why the appearance of cover-up? That’s the problem with the executive privilege move.”

    Wait… so, the burglar stopped robbing me when he got caught? That’s hardly a defensible position to take. But my 5-yr-old uses it all of the time. “Son, you cannot watch TV, because you haven’t been listening all day.” “But I *am* listening!” “No, son, your opportunity to listen has passed, you already didn’t listen.”

    Stopping what you’re doing when you get caught is not “the right thing to do”. The right thing to do, would have been to not do it in the first place.

    Holder lied and he should have been strung out to dry. I hardly believe this didn’t go all the way up to Holder and based on Obama’s response, he made himself appear to be in the mix. Alternatively, the “Administration” knows (post facto) that Holder has implicated himself and they don’t want this to fully unfurl leading into November.

    So either he was involved from the start or he’s covering up for the sake of reelection.

    Remember: guns don’t kill people, crazed Mexican cartels do!

    @everyone else – Deep breaths. Slow, deep, breaths. 😉

  45. The Muslim Brotherhood has been exposed as a concoction of our government to stealthily control the region. Uncle Sam has once again duped the masses!” – Piss Pot

    You are a COMPLETE FUCKING MORON.

    Really, Hassan al-Bana was a secret US agent? You’ve been exposed as a fucking clown…

  46. Well, this isn’t looking good… for the Administration anyway. For humanity, things are looking great!

    Sixty-one percent of independents said they disapproved of the president’s actions, and just 25 percent approved. Among Republicans, opposition to the president’s use of executive privilege was more entrenched at 78 percent.

    Even 28 percent of Democrats, and 30 percent of self-identified liberals disapproved of Obama’s position.

    The margins were slimmer, but still significant, when voters were asked whether they believed Obama had, in general, used executive power appropriately or inappropriately.

    Fifty-two percent said Obama had used his executive authority inappropriately, while 43 percent backed the president.

  47. But as R points out, Chaz Maddow says there’s nothing there but some incompetence and right wing paranoia. So the documents and information that would prove or disprove that being declared a “privileged” was just a poor political calculation, not a necessary one.

    Gawd. 🙄

    I know, I know, breathe. . . breathe. . .

  48. Wait… so, the burglar stopped robbing me when he got caught? That’s hardly a defensible position to take. But my 5-yr-old uses it all of the time. “Son, you cannot watch TV, because you haven’t been listening all day.” “But I *am* listening!” “No, son, your opportunity to listen has passed, you already didn’t listen.”

    Ouch! That was good kin – excellent point.

    Nixon could have used the same excuse – if we find out Obama is covering up, at the very least Obama should show the same “class” as Nixon and step aside for the ‘good of the country.’ 😈

    Or if justice were to really prevail, we could try Obama for accessory to murder. I actually would prefer this charge, to watch Obama perp walked into the the pen for 30, hard time.

  49. The Leftist facade is beginning to crack. Smoke is pouring through the holes. They’re going nuts now.

    If Obama should lose, we might either have a real riot or mass suicide, Heaven’s Gate style. I’m guessing the latter, because these clowns would be like fish in a barrel and they’ve got to know that. It would be like unleashing the Rabbit on a defenseless Rutherford with brass knucks in the Rabbit’s hands. 😈

    Have you heard this Randi Rhodes and Cher conversation on the radio?

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/06/25/Cher-Calls-For-A-Revolution-Because-Of-Racist-Republicans

    Maxine Waters ready to “get it on” with the Tea Party? MSNBC faces turning red with fury? 😆 😆 Even Brotha “R” appears to be under considerable strain, and he’s one of the few sane ones.

    Gawd, this is going to be beautiful if Obama loses. Thank the Lord and pass the ammunition. We might get a legal shot of self defense against a bunch of this loons and do a little shop cleaning while we’re at it. Eliminate at least 60% of the mooches standing in Food Stamp lines.

    A twofer win! Triple play if they can march Obama out of the White House before November for a little ride in the paddy wagon with his wife running after the wagon yelling, “Bama? Bama? We love you Bama!”

  50. IS THERE ANY JOURNALIST GOING BETTER THAN THIS GUY?

    Usually liberal reporters convince themselves into thinking they publish leaks as a way of speaking “truth to power,” not as near accomplices in promoting a partisan agenda. Usually leaks happen after events, not in the middle of an ongoing war against terrorists. How odd that the Obama administration has done more harm to the country than did Wikileaks. Why would the president not release subpoenaed documents to the U.S. Congress while he leaked national security secrets to the world?

    Appointments? Where does one find the like of an Anita Dunn (her hero was Mao), the truther Van Jones, or Al “Crucify” Armendariz? Do we remember guests to the Bush White House being photographed flipping off portraits of Bill Clinton? Usually Treasury secretaries are models of tax probity, not tax violators themselves. Why is the secretary of Labor issuing videos inviting illegal aliens to contact her office when lodging complaints against employers? Even John Mitchell did not violate so many ethical standards as has Eric Holder, who sees nothing wrong in appointing an Obama appointee and Obama campaign donor to investigate possible Obama administration legal violations. Why was grilling Alberto Gonzalez not racism, but doing the same to Eric Holder supposedly is? From where did “Shut the f— up” National Security Advisor Thomas Donilon appear? Fannie Mae and K Street? Do Commerce secretaries usually drive Lexuses as they promote U.S. industry?

    http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/is-the-country-unraveling/

  51. You may be right about Egypt, Alfie, but I think buying time was worth a try. The Soviets, Chinese and North Vietnamese are three examples of governments which obtained and maintained power through selective murder and imprisonment. Iran stopped its Green Revolution, and I think Egypt had a chance to do the same during the early days of its revolt. Stopping a revolution is like killing a disease. It must be done early and fast.

    I agree this is another reason to vote against Obama.

    That is a good article, Tex. However, our liberal news media let those people get away with it. If they were Cuban reporters, allies of Castro would be shouting “to the wall!”

    One good thing to come from this is that media’s protestations of impartiality has become a joke.

    “What’s the frequency Ken?”

  52. Whatever the President should or should not have done regarding Egypt, at this point I’d be grateful if I knew what he even thought.

  53. I love this guy…

    via twitter:

    Fred Thompson ‏@fredthompson
    Carney: Fast & Furious hearings “a political fishing expedition.” And from what we’ve heard so far… we’re gonna need a bigger boat. #tcot

  54. So I take my toddler to the local metro park where they have a petting zoo. We meandered down from the farm to a little picnic area next to a lake. Real pristine amd secluded. As I’m showing off my rock skipping skills I noticed this message freshly scrawled on the sand; “I will get you” followed by the sign of the zodiac. Would you get the fuck out of dodge? Ignore it as the prank I’m sure it is? I got the fuck out of there.

  55. Lol. You know Tigre, that thought didn’t cross my mind. I could tell my boy was thinking what the hell we just got here and Dad is all business about moving fuck on. He didn’t even protest. Would you have stayed?

  56. I’ve never been more mortified then when I read the book that inspired the movie on the zodiac killer. Gouls, ghosts, zombies, Count Chocula. None of that shit scares me. But anything related to the zodiac or serial killers? I’m like a wide eyed African-American actor in an Abbot and Costello episode.

  57. I’d have a hard time taking a warning drawn with a stick in the sand seriously. Imagine how long you’d have to sit around and wait for your victim, only to see that you scared them off by warning them.

    I gotta think even a zodiac killer might wait until after the murder before scrawling out the cryptic warnings. It just ain’t creepy enough without the body as proof that you’re serious.

  58. Holy shit. What an asshole Elmo. I felt bad for that little kid who ran up to him that had to 180 back to his freaked out mom.

  59. I caught Hand Mouth and Feet disease from my brother. Apperently there is an outbreak here. My fever spiked to 103 on Saturday. Gone by Sunday. I can only count maybe two times I’ve actually had a fever as a grown man. This was one was some Jim Morrison Lizard King shit. My wife left me alone in the house and my fever continued to go up. I swear it could have hit 104. I was shaking uncontrollably. When my wife returned I was already coming down and still was at 102.8. Never experienced anything like this outside of dropping acid. Now I have sores on my feet and mouth. I feel fine. Worried about the kids getting it. If this shit rips through America I could see it killing millions. Just found out my brother’s wife has it now.

  60. As bad as the fever was, I’d still rather have hoof and mouth disease (or whatever it’s called) then the flu. It truely is fast and furiois. I’ll take 12 hours of hell instead of a week of flu like symptoms. The fever feels really unique, too. They should take pictures of my brother for Wikipedia. Text book. He actually went to the hospital like a triangle.

  61. “I think this is the least involved I have seen Rutherford in his blog since I first came here.”

    Today has been sociology reading day. I expect to comment more tonight and tomorrow.

  62. Rabbit the only reason I would not have gotten the hell out of there is that I wouldn’t have noticed the scrawl in the first place. I have got to be the least observant mofo you’ve ever met. I used to jokingly refer to myself as Mr. Magoo.

  63. Today has been sociology reading day. I expect to comment more tonight and tomorrow.

    Oh no. 😦 Not more sociology. You take a “free” philosophy class, and it really will be hell around here.

    I used to jokingly refer to myself as Mr. Magoo

    Most of us still do.

  64. Muffy, “I’d be grateful if he even knew what he thought.” So would the President.

    dead rabbit, our daughter had hand and mouth disease when she was summer interning at college. She was as sick as you were, only she had a mother who told her old Egbert stories.

    I would have stayed in spite of the zodiac figure. But then again, a hooded apparition might have been waiting for me at my front door.

    Rutherford, has your professor given you a long reading list?

    The Olympic swimming trials are being held in Omaha tonight and the College World Series continues. It is a good time for Omaha.

  65. Philosophy at least has the potential to make one gain some respect for Western Civilization. Because I have no understanding of Calculus, Zeno’s arrow still keeps me up at night. Plato, Kierkegaard, Descartes…worth learning. I remember I went through a phase when I tried to learn philosophy. I found 90% falls in two camps.

    Camp 1. That’s all there is to it??
    Camp 2. Incomprehensible gloobty glock.

    Sociology is garbage. I even rank it below Psycology.

  66. I have a great admiration for Philosophy. The whole examining your web of beliefs and learning to judge if what you believe is valid and true to me would be one of the best ways to defeat liberalism and leftist ways of thinking. They cannot stand up to close scrutiny.

  67. One of my favorite is Gert. In particular Gert’s rules. Basically the 10 commandments minus religion. Quine if memory serves wrote the book “Web of Belief.” Both are still alive as far as I know so not famous yet.

    Web of Belief basically states that all beliefs are built upon one another and if you start to examine those beliefs (which the book strongly encourages you do) and you find some that are false it can have a cascade effect on the things you believed to be true. It states that there is nothing more dangerous than false beliefs and that we should endeavor to rid ourselves of these false beliefs at every opportunity.

    For me this was life changing as until I took my Philosophy class I had never been asked to considering the things I held to be true to see if I had good reason believing in them. I was our colleges co-founder and first president of our philosophy club and for 2 years enjoyed taking every topic you could imagine (nothing was off limits) and exploring if what we and or society generally accepted as true was valid. I very much enjoyed conversations about topics like the all PKG God (All powerful, all knowing, all good) as it pertained to unnecessary evil/suffering in the world. Cultural relativism was also another favorite( what is right or wrong is what society says is right or wrong.)

  68. Per my response in 98…In a class like this you don’t get to believe in something just because that is what your parents always told you was true. You had to take a critical look in what you believed in and justify that belief. I don’t know too many Leftists that would survive such an experience.

  69. I think I set the bar too high. I thought the secrets of life were to ne found somewhere in philosophy. I either couldn’t comprehend what the fuck I was reading or all ready thought about it on my own before.

    What was even lamer for me was my 5 or 6 days I was a “Buddhist” when I was around 22 years old.

    The absolute cake? The time I volunteered to answer phones for NPR. How fucking weird.

    The first year I got out of the service was an awkward one for me.

  70. I will give this much credit to Noah … the dude can zone in on pointed questions without too much ideological ramble. I’m five minutes from going to bed but I’ll give a quick response to these:

    1. Did a botched operation occur in your eyes? Yes
    2. Was there incompetence in execution that could/should have been avoided? Yes
    3. If 2 is yes, should those in leadership be held accountable? Yes. Did those in leadership do anything to put a stop to it? The answer is yes.
    4. Was there lies told when the investigation took place. (Lie being defined as not giving accurate information) Holder gave inaccurate information about when he knew what he knew. I hesitate to say “lie” only because there is the remote possibility that Holder made this statement without reviewing old documentation.
    5. By claiming executive privileged rather than invoking the 5th amendment, Obama has, by default, implicated himself in this situation. Do you feel then we need an independent probe into what really happened? If no then why? I’m not sure why you bring up the fifth amendment. This is a congressional investigation, not a trial in a court of law. That said, yes, Obama has involved himself in the situation by declaring EP. In what way has Issa’s investigation not been independent? Why are we going to waste money on an independent investigation when we already know what happened? All that remains is to determine if any further “punishment” is in order.

    Now let me ask you a question. Would Holder’s resignation satisfy you or are you out for more blood than that?

  71. “If Obama should lose, we might either have a real riot or mass suicide, Heaven’s Gate style.”

    You know they just discovered more bodies at the Heaven’s Gate house, right? They hadn’t done a complete search before and found the rest of the bodies in the kitchen…
    .
    .
    .
    .
    …..under the sink…
    .
    .
    .
    .
    ….behind the Comet.

    (rimshot)

  72. Sorry – I don’t normally do this, but it’s yarmulke, not yamaka.

    I just howled with laughter a couple of days ago when, in Southern VA, I passed “Mohel Road.” Nobody in the car had any inkling but that I had lost my mind. I just did a little ceremonial spit out the window, chortled to myself, and let them wallow in their ignorance.

    My wife showed me stats a couple of days ago which asserted that the current generation born between 1940 and 1955 is the best-educated that the world has ever seen. Boy, from what I see from my nineteen year-old, it’s the damned truth. He and his compadres have no more idea about the world around them than a hog knows when Sunday comes.

  73. re: my man Zeno. It is one of those thought experiments that led to something cool. Basically, Zeno said that if you were going to walk from where you were to a wall, you would have to go half-way first at some point. Agreed, right? Well, then you would have to walk half the remaining distance. And half of that. And half of that. Since you would always have to repeat that process, you would never reach the wall. Zeno’s paradox: the conclusion of which is that motion is impossible.

    This is the whole basis of calculus. If you want to see how fast you are going, how do you do it? You measure how far you traveled and divide it by how long it took. Well, what if you wanted to know your average speed over a very short period of time? No problem; just do the same thing. What if you wanted to know your speed at any instant in time? Uh-oh….an instant is zero seconds, and you will have traveled zero feet….0/0 = ????.

    Turns out that as you make the time shorter and shorter that ratio of distance/time does not go to zero, but approaches a number, and that is your instantaneous speed. Your speed is the limit of the ratio as time becomes infinitesimally close to – but does not BECOME – zero.

    Sounds like a lot of mental masturbation, but the consequences of this little problem are profound, like the implications my Boy Einstein saw when he realized that the speed of light is constant and went on from there. Without “The Calculus,” all our space travel, aeroplanes – anything that requires motion – would all be designed by guesswork, instead of mathematics. Space travel would likely be impossible.

    Pedantic BS over. Sorry. Loves me math.

  74. PF, for the record, the Yiddish word yamaka comes from the Aramaic, “yira malka”, which literally means “awe of the King.” The word kippah in Hebrew actually means dome. Kippah is more widely used to designate the skullcap worn by Jewish men.

    (actually I knew it was spelled with an “r” but couldn’t get my variation past spell check which kept going back to “yamaka.”. So because of my laziness, you got the idiot’s spelling: http://www.ehow.com/about_6169763_definition-yamaka.html).

  75. Holder’s and responsible deputies’ resignations would have satisfied me, but now I’m not sure. Obama’s invoking executive privilege raises more questions. Are they hiding criminality? Darrel Issa said that they have e mails discussing using Fast and Furious to alter public opinion to support gun control legislation.

    He said no one knows if they were discussing a preconcieved plan or were finding an opportunistic way to capitalize on a botched operation. Issa also said court decisions only allow the president to use executive privilege if he is directly involved.

    People died. This raises the standard high. If negligence cost lives, a resignation is not enough. At the very least, survivors ought to be able to sue for damages.

    Thanks for the interesting explanation of Zeno’s trip, Pfessor. It reminded me of radiation half life.

  76. If you want to see how fast you are going, how do you do it? You measure how far you traveled and divide it by how long it took

    Sorry. I don’t normally do this. That would not be correct by the physical definition of velocity…

    Velocity requires both magnitude and direction to define it, as velocity a vector quality.

    For instance, you could fly around in circles at the ‘speed’ of light. But if you pilot back at the same point you started, your velocity is zero.

    Pedantic is the word of the day, from somebody that loves math too. I clearly am being a turd and I know exactly what you were defining in speed which is scalar – and since you’re retired, you now need people to pull your chain to be motivated – hence, this blog.

    Welcome to the world of sloth. 😀

  77. Rutherford, is this Lee Camp the one that appeared on Fox News? The comedian that called Fox News a stream of propaganda?

    If so…

    …Can we call in and mock Camp’s abject stupidity like Gorilla does Sandi? 😛

    I’ll bet this guy has never had a question and answer session where he doesn’t perform like a trained monkey and has to do some rational thinking quickly, instead of repeating an act? Can we take a stab at how quick the man is on his feet?

  78. Rutherford.
    Per 3. We have over 300 deaths as a result from these weapons. I would hope you would agree that putting a stop to it doesn’t even begin to cover it?

    To answer your question. Probably not before he invoked EP. Now that he has, absolutely not. Either Obama wasn’t involved and he used EP as a political ploy to get this past the election, or he was involved and he needs to be held accountable. Even the President isn’t above the law. 300+ deaths must be accounted for.

    End of the day this type of mission was done properly twice before Obama. To do it so completely wrong is, in my mind, not a matter of incompetence, but rather purposeful intent. We should have reasonable expectations at this level in the game that our people are trained professionals and would know better than to perform an operation this way. So if they knew better, and had two examples to draw on from prior missions, to me says this was an intentional action. That said, this needs to go all the way to the top, and Obama invoking EP now makes it mandatory IMO.

    Now a question for you. 300+ lives have been lost on Obama’s watch. The nature of EP now means we KNOW Obama was involved. Holder has been engaged in a cover up, really is not much doubt in this considering the chain of events. Could you explain to me, considering the probability of what we have here, how you still cast a vote for this man?

  79. “Issa also said court decisions only allow the president to use executive privilege if he is directly involved.”

    That’s right.

    I thought that was known around here, especially by Rutherford who said he’s read up on it and seems to find nothing in the invocation other than a poor political choice.

    How he reached that determination is a mystery. Well not really. Obama’s propaganda channel MSNBC told him there was nothing to this.

    Anyone here have thoughts on Obama’s reaction to the AZ ruling? Like Krauthammer, I find it astonishing in both content and tone. Not enforcing immigration laws to punish the State of AZ? Wow.

  80. If the documents had the potential to enrage Mexico and embaress us on the world stage, couldn’t Obama evoke EP?

  81. Obama is special. He will change the United States and maybe the world into an image of his creation. His wife described the vision thoughly after he was elected.

    Our president hosts , an inner autocrat who will lash out at anyone who dares thwart him.He is a power unto himself. If he loses the election watch for more of the same. Thus, I am startled, but not astonished.

  82. I’m no lawyer, but I don’t think Obama could evoke EP unless he personally was involved. The best course would be to aggressively find the truth appologise profusely and stage a show trial or two.

    As far as anger and embarrassment, the cat is out of the bag. Any new information would only be a matter of degree.

    Someone can probably tell me I’m wrong.

  83. In the Nixon case, the SCOTUS said, “The Supreme Court stated: “To read the Article II powers of the President as providing an absolute privilege as against a subpoena essential to enforcement of criminal statutes on no more than a generalized claim of the public interest in confidentiality of nonmilitary and nondiplomatic discussions would upset the constitutional balance of ‘a workable government’ and gravely impair the role of the courts under Article III.”

    Obama;s direct involvement, personally or through his senior advisers is required.

    As a corollary, I cant just say that something is subject to the attorney-client privilege (or work product doctrine) without establishing the existence that the privilege actually exists, e.g. relationship, communication, subject matter etc. Legal privileges are narrowly tailored and need to be substantiated. Obama just said “you can’t have a category of information” that Holder testified was non-existent and the President told the public he had no knowledge of.

    Simply put, EP is not designed to protect lyin’, cheatin’ and stealin’ by our public officials, regardless of how embarrassing.

  84. Anyone here have thoughts on Obama’s reaction to the AZ ruling? Like Krauthammer, I find it astonishing in both content and tone. Not enforcing immigration laws to punish the State of AZ? Wow.

    I’ve been saying for quite some time that people are mischaracterizing Barack Obama. Obama at his core is pure fascist and Chicago thug. And yesterday once again proved it.

    I was fooled for about 18 months, as I misread him as Euro style socialist. I have since realized I underestimated Obama’s motives and overestimated his intellect. I’ve come to understand Obama is of average intelligence with a monumental ego and a gift of racial and class division politic. That gift will always keep Obama at a 42-43% approval rating and 50% likability factor. Obama preys on the uneducated, the myopic, the stupid, the amoral, the gullible, and the weak.

    Obama neither understands or has any intention of following the Constitution. The fact Obama is called a Constitutional Lawyer is a joke – and he frequently subverts it when necessary.

    America shucked its most fundamental duty in 2008 and got caught up in empty platitudes – the duty to be a responsible citizen and the platitudes clearly a ruse, a tragedy of which we are now paying dearly for short selling for glamor and glitz.

    It would not surprise me for Obama and his entitled wife to refuse to leave the Whitehouse should Obama be defeated in November. And don’t fool yourself – Obama would have the backing of millions in doing so.

  85. Zeno’s Paradox is way cool. PF’s comment prompted me to wiki it and PF it goes even further. Not only can you never reach the wall, but in truth you can’t even get started because it is impossible to define a first distance to walk toward the wall because any such distance could be divided in two, which then becomes the first distance that you walk, which in turn could be divided by two, and so on and so on so you never actually start moving at all.

    The conclusion to all this is that motion is an illusion. Cooool maaaaaaan!

  86. The other option is motion is constant and stability is an illusion.

    I like Lee Camp. His latest video is right up my alley.

  87. People died. This raises the standard high. If negligence cost lives, a resignation is not enough. At the very least, survivors ought to be able to sue for damages.

    So I guess that would apply to Bush and the Iraq war.

  88. For instance, you could fly around in circles at the ‘speed’ of light. But if you pilot back at the same point you started, your velocity is zero.

    Tex, I don’t get this. Just because you’re going in circles, why does that not constitute “direction”?

  89. Generally I just read the comment here, I read an article this morning by Jonathan Capehart in the Washington Post this morning titled, Zimmerman Caught on Tape: Travon’s Hands, I wonder if anyone here feels that is a game changer.

  90. You can call into today’s show all you like … only one problem. I’m not taking calls during Lee’s interview. We’ve got limited time and I’m not risking it getting eaten up by hecklers. I’ll take calls once he’s off the air. 🙂

  91. I read the deaths associated with Fast and Furious was 200, not 300. Not that 200 hundred isn’t bad. How do they figure that number anyway?

    What happen to the argument, “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”? Does that only apply to specific circumstances?

    Or is it part of the consistently inconsistent rhetoric of the party?

    Bush has been tried and convicted for war crimes internationally. He does not freely travel about the world. The US was too pussy to pursue enforcing the laws that are on the books. Wouldn’t be prudent. 😉

  92. If the documents had the potential to enrage Mexico and embaress us on the world stage, couldn’t Obama evoke EP?

    Good question and thank you for asking. EP does NOT necessarily mean Presidential involvement. It can be invoked to protect matters of national security. Whether it can be used to protect national reputation is another story.

  93. We gave them the guns to use, so that when they were they could supposedly be linked.

    We did not track the guns to see who received them then arrest before use.

    Poolman, what happened to “gun control” saves lives. That’s “this” administration’s’ policy. “This” administration authorized F&F.

  94. No. That was done with Congress’ approval (joint resolution).

    Approval granted based on proven lies and cooked intel. That should have been added to the charges.

  95. “Approval granted based on proven lies and cooked intel. That should have been added to the charges.”

    Go ahead and add them. Then file your lawsuit. Let us know the outcome.

  96. on no more than a generalized claim of the public interest in confidentiality of nonmilitary and nondiplomatic discussions

    You just proved Obama CAN invoke EP without being directly involved. This is NOT “nondiplomatic”. You guys claim it’s an act of war against Mexico 🙄 so clearly there are diplomatic implications.

  97. “You just proved Obama CAN invoke EP without being directly involved.”

    🙄

    What discussions/communications between Holder and (????) are diplomatic?

  98. It would not surprise me for Obama and his entitled wife to refuse to leave the Whitehouse should Obama be defeated in November. And don’t fool yourself – Obama would have the backing of millions in doing so.

    Is there a psychiatrist in the house? There’s some wildly delusional perceptions that need attention STAT!

  99. Fast and Furious was cooked up here in Arizona during the “changing of the guard” in the administration. Obama’s ATF appointee was not in charge, and as Alfie pointed out the ATF was basically a rogue organization with no head for several years.

    They have a reputation of corruption and secrecy, and the insiders were still inside.

    Because the POTUS is the ‘head” of government, he does have a responsibility to make sure the others under him are falling in line and is ultimately responsible for their collective actions. It is a huge task and requires him putting his people following his agenda in to control the organization.

    Whether he was aware of the operation or not is immaterial. The operation was initiated by insiders within the organization and even though botched, was not unlike other operations that were performed in the past and deemed successful by some’s standards. The past operations were not made public. We really don’t know if people died as a result.

    The cover up is the real crime here. But then cover up is SOP for government and its appendages.

    Still, the point is guns DO kill people or not. You want it both ways.

  100. No. That was done with Congress’ approval (joint resolution).

    Ahhh I see. I guess I better bone up on my constitution. I missed the part where it said a crime approved by Congress was not a crime. Is that a variation on the Nixon comment … “If Congress approves it, it must be legal.” 🙂

  101. Tex, I don’t get this. Just because you’re going in circles, why does that not constitute “direction”?

    I was just giving old, retired Pfesser a hard time. He’ll understand and probably gig me in return.

    ————

    My math major has forgotten vector mathematics. There is a difference between velocity and speed. Velocity requires a vector component.

    Velocity = change in distance divided by change in time

    Because in my example, the object returned to the original position, the motion would never result in a change in position. Since velocity is defined as the rate at which the position changes, the velocity would be zero.

    Think of velocity as speed with a direction.

  102. Tigre, senior advisers and diplomats are not the POTUS himself. So again you proved my point. Second, any communication between Holder and anyone else could, based on its content, have diplomatic implications with Mexico.

    Again, my gut tells me there is no there, there. This is just Obama spitting in the face of Issa. I don’t endorse the approach.

  103. No Rutherford, it would not apply to Bush and the Iraqi war. I opposed it at first because I thought we should keep our attention on Afghanistan. However, the war was a matter of public policy supported by both parties. One reason for its justification was that Iraq was violating some UN resolutions and of course the Weapons of mass destruction which Hussein convinced the world he still had.

    Most of the world’s intelligence agencies believed the WMD existed so they were not a lie. Obama’s son in-law left Iraq for a while, and he said the weapons were dismantled and ready for re use later. There, they still existed. No more lies preceeded Iraq than before any other war.

    Iraq is different from a secret botched operation which our government is trying to hide.

    Bush’s alleged war crimes are a political joke. If he is really guilty, most of the world’s leaders, including Obama are too.

    Darrel Issa said Obama can NOT invoke executive privilege unless he is directly involved. I believe Issa because he would be in a lot of trouble if he was wrong. A man under such pressure would not say such a thing if he didn’t believe it was true.

    Act of war against Mexico is hyperbole. It was a failed (assuming the motives were as stated) gun tracing operation.

    133 should be wrong if it isn’t. By those standards, Presidents can stretch meanings to protect themselves and their staffs as Nixon tried to do. Allowing fsuch interpretations invites damage to separation of powers.

    Obama erred by invoking executive privilege or he calculated its use was less politically costly than the unknown truth.

  104. Since velocity is defined as the rate at which the position changes, the velocity would be zero.

    Think of velocity as speed with a direction.

    OK, your first sentence made sense, your second did not. Going in circles does not imply lack of direction. BUT I do understand your point about a change in position.

    So are you saying that the early space missions that circumnavigated the Earth had no velocity because they wound up where they started? Or as the Earth orbits the sun, it does so with no velocity because it ends up where it started?

    You’ve got me at a disadvantage because I have indeed forgotten anything I might have learned about vector mathematics.

    There are a number of terms easily confused: speed, acceleration and velocity. My rock of a head thinks of speed as how fast you’re going. Acceleration the rate of change of speed (i.e. from 30 MPH to 40MPH). I associate the notion of “force” with velocity.

  105. Going in circles does not imply lack of direction.

    Only in a Leftist world would going in circles apply a sense of direction. I’m beginning to understand your confusion about a great many things. 😛

  106. Since velocity is defined as the rate at which the position changes, the velocity would be zero.

    Would it be more accurate to say the end velocity was zero or is that redundant?

  107. Rutherford, the president’s senior advisers are people who discuss policies with him. Unless they are engaging in operations kept secret from the president as allegedly happened during Iran _Contra, they would have had discussions with the president. It would make him directly involved per Issa’s definition of appropriate executive privilege.

    The POTUS has to be involved, Otherwise the spectre of advisers in open revolt of the president and the government would need a serious investigation, not EP. Diplomatic damage would be the least of our worries.

    I agree with the last part.

  108. Your question is once again referring to speed, not velocity. The speed of the earth around the sun is about 68,000 mph – give or take a few miles. And that was from memory in physics; so don’t quote me. I remember it because I was so fascinated we could be moving at almost four times the speed of the space shuttle. Gravity is a good thing….

    The average velocity of the earth around the sun in one year would be zero, because now we are talking centripetal force. You’re not ready to go there yet. 😉

  109. What about a stationary hurricane or tornado? Velocity is speed with direction, but a rotating parcel of air ends up in the same spot with regularity. However from its viewpoint, it is racing along a straight line. Right?

    If the storm is moving, the forward speed would not be the rotating air of 100 MPH but the 30 MPH speed of the thunderstorm. Right?

    Help!

  110. Still, the point is guns DO kill people or not. You want it both ways.” – Piss Pot

    No, drug cartels kill people and giving them a couple thousand full auto AK-47s just makes it easier.

    Good question and thank you for asking. EP does NOT necessarily mean Presidential involvement. It can be invoked to protect matters of national security. ” – R

    …involving the President. Based on this logic, you had no business knowing about Iran Contra. There is well established Legislative claim to this investigation, which is within the purview of Congress’s enumerated role for oversight.

    You guys went apeshit about Cheney meeting with oil executives (VP receiving confidential counsel), claiming for years some secret cabal to get at Iraq’s oil (which again proved to be total bunk), yet there’s nothing to see here with thousands of guns- acquired illegally and under government supervision- going into a foreign country to drug cartels killing hundreds and flooding our country with thousands of tons of illegal substances.

    If it wasn’t for double standards, the left would have no standards at all…

  111. Darrel Issa said Obama can NOT invoke executive privilege unless he is directly involved.

    Issa also said he has no evidence the White House was involved in F&F.

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/rep-darrell-issa-admits-there-is-no-evidence-connecting-white-house-to-fast-furious-scandal/

    But then he writes an accusatory letter to the POTUS.
    http://thehill.com/homenews/house/234721-issa-raises-charges-against-obama-in-fast-and-furious-probe

    Issa can’t seem to make up his mind.

  112. “Ahhh I see. I guess I better bone up on my constitution. I missed the part where it said a crime approved by Congress was not a crime.”

    I suggest you do that.

  113. “Again, my gut tells me there is no there, there. This is just Obama spitting in the face of Issa. I don’t endorse the approach.”

    Yeah, you’re discerning when it comes to defending Obama. 🙄

  114. The average velocity of the earth around the sun in one year would be zero, because now we are talking centripetal force. You’re not ready to go there yet. 😉

    LOL … damn do I need a refresher!

  115. “So again you proved my point. Second, any communication between Holder and anyone else could, based on its content, have diplomatic implications with Mexico.”

    So could eating a burrito.

    What legitimate diplomatic implications would be embodied in the communications he said didn’t exist, Senor?

  116. I can understand your confusion in 160 Rutherford. Leftists aside, the rest of the world, as evidence unfolds contrary to what we thought to be true, often changes one’s mind and opinion on subjects.

  117. So could eating a burrito.

    That cracked me up.

    Perhaps there were communications that explicitly discussed the Mexican’s government’s lack of involvement in the operation?

  118. So you wonder why we get fired up on illegal immigration. 10 to 1 Anna Gonzalez qualified for Obama’s other-cheek policy, but she shouldn’t have been here in the first place.

    But hey, as long as she votes Dem, all is forgiven… for some…

    GREENVILLE, S.C. — A drunken driver killed an Upstate women’s son last year, and if the grief wasn’t enough, she’s had to deal with bills associated with the wreck, even for the cost of cleaning up her son’s blood.

    A coroner called Loretta Robinson last June and told her that her oldest son, Justin Walker, died when his car was struck by a drunken driver on White Horse Road. “I never would have imagined getting that call,” she said. “Never in one million years expected that.”

    Robinson looked Anna Gonzalez, the accused driver, in the eye in court Tuesday as Gonzalez pleaded guilty.

    The grieving mother then showed the judge the many bills she’s had to pay, even though her son was not at fault.

    Robinson said she paid to have the wrecked car stored for months, in case there was a trial.

    “I had to pay to have the vehicle towed,” she said. “I had to pay for the vehicle removed and to clean up the street from Justin’s blood on the ground.”

    Robinson said that was the bill that stung the most — paying $50 to have the street cleaned…

    …Robinson said she doesn’t expect she’ll get a cent from Gonzalez.

    Although Gonzalez was an illegal immigrant that had lived here for 12 years, she never got a South Carolina driver’s license. She has been sentenced to 17 years in prison.

  119. Noah, Issa must have learned quite a lot within two days to so suddenly change his approach.

    A better explanation is that Issa is saying he has no evidence of White House involvement yet but he’s looking for it … and he suspects it.

  120. “fyi I will be listening to your broadcast for the fist time today.”

    Be forewarned, you will not enjoy it. 🙂 Also be forewarned that I’ve been told I sound like a cross between Demi Moore and Harvey Fierstein.

  121. “Perhaps there were communications that explicitly discussed the Mexican’s government’s lack of involvement in the operation?”

    Those portions could be redacted and still identify who was involved and the subject of communications that Holder testified didn’t exist and Obama told the American people he was unaware of.

    Your comment about Issa having it both ways is a non sequitur.

  122. No, drug cartels kill people and giving them a couple thousand full auto AK-47s just makes it easier.

    Then tell your overlords to quit propping up the cartels and the drug trade and profiting off of the conflict and contraband. Admit Afghanistan’s drug crop is protected and controlled by us like Tillman did.

    My gut tells me as soon as there was a ‘problem’ it was discussed up the chain of command and the order was to limit the damage, in other words, cover it up. That is SOP in all aspects of government, including the military.

    Say it isn’t so, Magilla.

  123. R, it really is amazing to me what you are willing to tolerate when it comes to executive overreach. It really must suck to be so invested in this figure you have created. It’s impossible to have a thoughtful exchange about anything you perceive as an attack on the guy regardless of its implications.

  124. Zimmerman’s guilty. Capehart proved it Matlock-style. . .

    Except he fails to mention what the neighbor who supposedly assisted saw, or what the first cops on the seen did or didn’t (e.g. check to see if he was alive or not).

    This is some thorough investigating going here by Capehart. One of the ones that declared Zimmerman guilty of racially motivated killing on MSNBC without any of the facts.

    I have a question for Capehart. Why aren’t you trying to test the veracity of the prosecutor’s case with the same level of skepticism?

  125. Then we got Syria. The drum beats…

    The fact that the United States government, and notably a Democratic administration, is waging war against another government through surrogates is a really, really big deal. Yet our media—almost all of it, Left, Right and Other—walks in lockstep with a shared dubious narrative of an essentially spontaneous uprising being crushed by a ruthless government and of a West helping “the people” purely for humanitarian purposes.

    It turns out that the US government really did learn a lesson from Vietnam. Win those hearts and minds. But not in foreign jungles or deserts. The real battle is right here at home.

    http://whowhatwhy.com/2012/06/25/the-hijacking-arab-spring-medias-complicity/

    Propaganda wars produce real time bloodshed.

  126. Rutherford, Ken Melson, acting director of the Bureau of Firearms, Alchohol and Tobacco told senator Grassly about an e mail which proves DOJ officials knew about Fast and Furious months before they sent Congress a letter denying the operation’s existence. The e mail contributes to Issa’s suspicions.

    Such speculation will continue until the requested documents are released. My speculation is that this guessing is less damaging to the administration than the hidden facts.

  127. Poolman, the Vietnamese themselves said they won the war on the streets of America and Europe. We don’t have a draft because technology allows us to fight with smaller armies, and the people who join the armed forces are more likely to be carerists than draftees. Lack of a draft also minimized anti-war protests.

    Propaganda plays an important role in wars. Ben Franklin’s and others’ efforts in Europe, especially France probably contributed as much to our freedom as Washington’s armies.

  128. Admit Afghanistan’s drug crop is protected and controlled by us like Tillman did.” – Piss Pot

    Yep, all those defoliant flights- by the U.S. no less- over poppy fields never really happened.

    Afghanistan, specifically the Taliban, tries to protect poppies because it is the only source of income for the country. A bushel of corn doesn’t stand a chance against a bushel of poppy.

    YOUR president sent guns to the cartels, so tell YOUR president to stop.

    You regularly delude yourself with all these conspiracies. Here’s a hint: we landed on the moon, the Mothman isn’t real, and you warrant professional mental help.

  129. I guess the new soundbite should be:

    Gun’s don’t kill people, they make it easier for people to kill people.

    If, we were concerned with truth in advertising.

    In an armed world it makes sense to be armed, especially with the threat level constantly elevated. The world is a battlefield.

  130. Afghanistan, specifically the Taliban, tries to protect poppies because it is the only source of income for the country.

    Karzai and his brother is not Afghanistan. Those are our puppets.

    The Taliban do not support the opium crop, just the opposite. Before we arrived they had it almost wiped out. Now, business is booming. We’re pushing it into Russia to piss on Putin.

  131. I keep picturing documents from POTUS to Holder detailing what measures POTUS will take to make the Mexicans government happy.

  132. Gorilla, who ever said that everyone that is covered under Obama’s “other cheek” policy (clever nickname, that) is a saint? If Gonzales hadn’t killed her son, it might as well have been any other drunk driver. You really have no point here. The woman’s immigration status was in no way connected with her being a drunk driver.

  133. Your comment about Issa having it both ways is a non sequitur.

    Perhaps at first blush. That comment actually evolved. I went looking for Issa’s quote to Chris Wallace and along the way found his comments to the contrary. I thought it only fair to present both.

  134. I have a question for Capehart. Why aren’t you trying to test the veracity of the prosecutor’s case with the same level of skepticism?

    Very valid point. As I told “Newt”, Capehart is playing Sherlock Holmes … how that rates as a valid column in a reputable newspaper baffles me a bit.

  135. You regularly delude yourself with all these conspiracies.

    Sorry … as loopy as my friend Poolman can be, I can’t let this one go. Anyone who thinks we deliberately flooded Mexico with guns to trigger anti-gun sentiment here is as nutty as a fruit cake.

    If you guys wanna go ape-sh*t over the “wrongness” of the operation, I’m cool with that. The minute you go into Vanderboegh territory you’re just playing the same game as The Poolman.

  136. But Poolman you just don’t understand …. Ronnie knew NOTHING about Iran-Contra but Obama knew everything about F&F. You only get to claim ignorance if you’re a Republican and then you better pray like hell there are no tape recorders running — “I am not a crook.” — Richard Nixon.

  137. Hey dip shit pool man, quit looking for oysters in your wife’s hairy cists and check your watch. Its the year 2012. Who gives a shit about Iran Contra or for that matter the U.S. Maine. I was in 9th grade during Iran Contra. Doesn’t mean a thing to me when it comes to this.

    Treasonous snake. I shall be in Phoenix soon visiting my brother. Just let me know if you want to hang out.

  138. They were deliberately flooding Mexico with guns WHILE they were blaming Americans. Were they not, R?

  139. “no tape recorders running.”

    EP didn’t work for Nixon, so he exercised executive privilege by deleting 7 minutes or so himself.

    Anyway, your point has no point. If it wasn’t right then, it isn’t right now. Deal with it. We already know you suck Obama’s dick and believe he can do no wrong.

    But we also know that Hillary was pointing to the very guns we supplied to the Mexican drug cartels as proof that we need stricter gun control. If we knew better, why wouldn’t you have a problem with it? Or am I correct: to a liberal the ends always justify the means?

    The best part is that there is clearly a problem with what actually occurred, not the fact that there’s congressional investigation, and you don’t give a shit. Your Messiah’s word is his bond.

    My question to Capehart has some application here too Rutherford.

  140. Karzai and his brother is not Afghanistan. Those are our puppets.
    The Taliban do not support the opium crop, just the opposite. Before we arrived they had it almost wiped out. Now, business is booming. We’re pushing it into Russia to piss on Putin.
    ” – Piss Pot

    Monumental ignorance. You truly know nothing of the situation in Afghanistan.

  141. Know, you just don’t know anything. IF you had been there, IF you knew the parties involved, IF you understood the political dynamics, THEN you wouldn’t make half the stupid fucking comments you do.

    You’re the poster child for ignorant commentary.

  142. Ok Rutherford having listened to your show I can understand why you are as you are. You live in little Leftist bubble bringing on cheerleaders who regurgitate your point of view back to you. Its an intellectual circle jerk. I would suggest one day you venture out and listen to opposing points of view. I have spent 6 years listening to Liberal and overseas radio. I desire to get more than one point of view to decide for myself the real story.

    Kudos to you for putting on a show. That said I think this lack of knowledge from anything not Leftist makes you VERY one dimensional. If we were to take away Liberal talking points we would have 30 minutes of silence.

    Your arguments were so fallacy ridden I scarcely know where to begin. I find your revisionist re-accounts of what happened in our nations past on a variety of political subjects insulting.

    Your biggest weakness seems to me other than ignorance, is your inability to accurately articulate the Conservative point of view. As it stands now you mischaracterize what a Republican believes by stating it as a Leftist person would think it is after they spin it, then base your argument on this faulty premise.

    I laughed and laughed at the part where you said Republicans make everything about Obama. Care to take count of how many topics you have talked about where even today, the name Bush comes up? Do you have any idea how ridiculous his made you two sound?

    On your ongoing ramblings of talking about the F&F being about gun control. If that does or does not pan out it is barely a secondary concern over the 300+ people who were murdered because of your Messiah’s incompetence. For anyone with any kind of human soul, that is what “we” care about. Your claims are to try and downplay why this is being brought up, nothing more. A shameful argument both in content and intent.

    As to you asking the question…what more do people want…people have been fired. Hello…people died. Do you really rate a firing proper punishment for mass murder?

  143. Well, al-Qaida is worse than polio too. And no, the Taliban do not give a fuck about the people. How many beheadings, girl school poisonings, and various other Taliban atrocities must I point out to prove that point.

    You know why polio vaccinations are being targeted? Because we got bin Laden that way, and it tugs at the poor heart strings. An honest person would say, really, you’re going to allow hundreds to thousands of people get this debilitating disease just to save your own ass? Never mind the fact that you have no idea how many shots are NOT taken because of concern for civilian casualties.

    Ignorance extraordinaire…

  144. They were deliberately flooding Mexico with guns WHILE they were blaming Americans.

    I get the first part of your sentence about the flooding …. you lost me on the second half.

  145. “Care to take count of how many topics you have talked about where even today, the name Bush comes up? Do you have any idea how ridiculous his made you two sound?”

    😆 😆

    Introspection ain’t a part of their routine.

    R, what don’t you get about DR’s comment. The premise has been set out 100 times in this thread. Please don’t make this another one of your avoidance tactics where you play dumb about the meaning. Please?

  146. G, you really need to get your radio show going. The sound of Bubbles Berhns trying to play contemplative expert at a constant loss for words is puke worthy. Yet, I am drawn to it like moth to flame. It’s like watching the first run episodes of American Idol where the complete lack of self-awareness of the contestants makes you feel both embarrassed for them and superior.

  147. Zimmerman passed a lie detector test.

    Didn’t PF post a Penn and Teller Bullsh*t episode about lie detector tests? 🙂

    Oh btw, Trayvon couldn’t pass one … he’s dead.

  148. That’s what happens when you bring fisticuffs to a gun fight… So far, every element of evidence supports Zimmermans case. All of it. You blame Zimmerman for getting out of his car, well, Trayvon should have just kept walking…

  149. Noah, I truly appreciate your sticking with most if not all of the hour. In the three years I’ve been doing the show I’ve only done two interviews, the one today and one with an unknown Pennsylvania politician a couple of years ago. Since I believe Lee Camp is about to break out as a known comedian, I was pretty nervous about today’s interview.

    Maybe it’s short term memory loss but how many times did I mention Bush on today’s show?

    Since you mentioned my proclivity for citing Bush, I’ll oblige. People died in Katrina too and Bush gave his FEMA guy a very public pat on the back. I think firing folks comes closer to the right response.

  150. I think it would be very hard as a liberal for me to represent the conservative viewpoint without some skew. BUT I submit exposure to you guys has broadened my viewpoints. Unlike bloggers (like M&H) who thrive on the circle jerk, I get barraged with the opposing opinion and if you don’t think I don’t take it seriously, you’re wrong.

    Sometimes I worry the hell out of my wife on those rare occasions when I find myself agreeing with you guys. 🙂

  151. Trayvon should have just kept walking…

    I actually agree with that. Of course Trayvon wouldn’t have brought fisticuffs to a gun fight had there been no gun.

  152. Regarding 115 — “The nature of EP now means we KNOW Obama was involved.” I reject the premise.

    I’m so disgusted with how trivial politics has become when we have major problems facing this nation, that I may just stay home this year. If I vote for Obama it will be for what I view as the lesser of two evils. Romney might have some good intuition regarding our domestic financial woes but I don’t trust his foreign policy. I think he will surround himself with hawks and we’ll be fighting everybody and their brother for the next four years.

  153. A lesson in irony…

    The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is actually proud of the fact it is distributing the greatest amount of free meals and food stamps ever!

    Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us to “Please Do Not Feed the Animals.” Their stated reason for the policy is because the animals will grow dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves.

    This ends today’s lesson!

  154. I think he will surround himself with hawks and we’ll be fighting everybody and their brother for the next four years.” – R

    Because Obama’s Nobel Dove strategy has been so prevalent. R, do you think about the things you say before saying them?

  155. You missed this.

    “End of the day this type of mission was done properly twice before Obama. To do it so completely wrong is, in my mind, not a matter of incompetence, but rather purposeful intent. We should have reasonable expectations at this level in the game that our people are trained professionals and would know better than to perform an operation this way. So if they knew better, and had two examples to draw on from prior missions, to me says this was an intentional action. That said, this needs to go all the way to the top, and Obama invoking EP now makes it mandatory IMO.”

    Also could you explain how over 300 dead people and the notion of lesser of 2 evils. What does Romney have in his past that you feel is more evil than this mass murder?

    Also, could you expand on how you think 300 deaths are paid for by a firing alone?

  156. Noah, are you ready to lock up every gun dealer who deals a gun that is used in a murder? The ATF didn’t kill anybody. They did their job poorly and some lost their jobs as a result. That’s as it should be.

  157. Regarding 115 — “The nature of EP now means we KNOW Obama was involved.” I reject the premise.-R

    And if he wasn’t involved, then all the more scary that operations such as F&F are in operation unknown to our POTUS. Also scary to invoke EP to CYA as a result of ignorance. What else isn’t Obama being told???

    Gorilla @212. Love that one. It’s making the rounds of Facebook. Rutherford, it does make a “point”. Frankly I think community food banks work just as well in a lot of cases. Oh and jobs work better than food stamps.

  158. Red herring and you know it. Again, you guys push to the lowest common denominator. If you can’t be special, then no one is special, or is it everyone is special, which means no one is really special? Doesn’t matter, you live and thrive politically on dependency.

  159. Question: Doesn’t Arizona require proof of citizenship to obtain a driver’s license like many of the other states do now? If so anyone stopped for other than an “illegal profile” would have a valid proof of citizenship so the law is moot.
    When is the last time any of you had to apply for a driver’s license? I applied for a new one about 7 years ago and had to provide passport or birth certificate even though I had a valid license from another state.

  160. @ Tigre, well now that’s just asking to be deported since the law could consider that an overload of weight and a reason to stop said truck 😆

  161. Sandi “OWS was never embraced by Dems” Behrns

    A bigger lie has never been told. Pelosi went on and on about the virtues of Occupy and how they represented the best in America. Of course, she was extolling their virtues while they were shitting on cop cars and the American flag.

    For what its worth R, I can’t understand why the average Joe can’t embrace OWS either. I mean, its not like they’re offensive or anything…

  162. I got a valid Arizona license by taking a written and eye test. I used my Texas DL and SSN as id. Obviously, I was/am a citizen. Back then (94) many of the AZ DLs issued were the same number as one’s SSN, which proved problematic and has since changed.

    The state requires we renew them when information changes, we move, or they expire. It can be done online to be ‘legal’, but one must go in to the MVD to obtain the new one. And it is MVD here, instead of the DMV it was in Texas.

    The state was issuing passport style DLs here (would double as a passport) for a while. It was highly promoted for a time, but I have not heard if that is still ongoing.

    The main complaint was racial profiling where vehicles were being stopped for no apparent reason except to check citizenship status. We have plenty of Mexican citizens that drive here with Mexican licenses. That is legal and should not cause consternation. Plenty have California and New York licenses too.

    But like the video Tigre posted, we’ve had numerous stops where vans were packed full with illegals. Quite a few vans had wrecked sometimes due to a police chase and bodies were often strewn about. It seemed commonplace news for a while. But much of that was before the economic crash five years ago.

  163. Any liberal supporting Obama should read and re read Ragi’s comment 221 “What else isn’t he being told?”

    Rutherford, you understand Obama is a danger to our country. We risk more of the same low employment and sluggish business activity.. You believe Romney might be the lessor of two evils, and yet you are afraid of his possible foreign policy.

    You might be right. I don’t know. But I will know before the election, and you should too. You owe it to yourself and all of us to do some research and learn Romney’s background and who his advisers are. It can be done. I learned enough about Obama and Sarah Palin to understand how they would behave. I knew more about Obama than some news people did–for example, the “Gazabo to Nowhere.”

    . You can do the same about Romney. Without the research, you are relying on your biases and conjecture to decide our next ;president. This time it is unacceptable.

  164. Yet, I am drawn to it like moth to flame. It’s like watching the first run episodes of American Idol where the complete lack of self-awareness of the contestants makes you feel both embarrassed for them and superior.

    😆 😆 Beautifully put. I think that is why I’m about the only one here anymore besides Rutherford seeking company that hasn’t grown completely weary of Poolman. It’s as close to a train wreck as anything I’ve ever witnessed. Morbid curiosity – it’s always been my weakness.

    Poolman, sometime, someplace, you’re going to mouth off in one of those American hating, anti-Semitic rants one too many times to a Rabbit or a Gorilla in real time, accidentally doing it public and their presence, to someone perfectly capable of laying you to waste. And you are going to wish like hell you hadn’t been born.

    And on that day when you find your ugly mug laying in a pool of your own body fluids by a better man, justice will have prevailed.

  165. 207, Rutherford, I think it would be fun for you to represent the other side an argument. My father-in law enjoyed politics, and when we got bored, we switched sides.

    We all know how you consider Michele Malkin to be almost like a sister to you. She is now a refugee from the Colorado fire. I know you’d like to know.

  166. Someone mentioned food banks. They do work. Ours is still functioning with a pretty big clientele for our underpopulated county. It covers over a 50 mile territory.

    Last year, during our flood, Pfessor and delurkergurl of the other blog’s kitchen donated money to our food bank. Thanks again.

  167. Rutherford, if a gun dealer knowingly sells guns to an outlaw organized crime outfit, one more brutal then even the fucking Taliban, one at war with Mexico, guns including anti aircraft, he goes to jail for life. Dumb fuck Obamaist. Your not even a liberal. Tie and arm band on you mindless follower.

  168. After Obama rides into the sun set, what do you have left? You don’t have anything that remotely resembles manhood when it comes to a belief system. Was it worth humiliating yourself to temporarily be on the team? You think I will follow Romney off a cliff? Did I sell my soul to Bush? They way I see it, you can only latch on to another demigod. You are a jail house bitch, now. That sucks!

  169. Not for nothing the Taliban fully accepted narcotics traffic. It is that avenue that offered some irony given other events. Iran was willing to share the intel they had gathered from years of fighting Afghan narcotics trafficking. Religiously speaking Iran has far more of a problem with drugs than the Taliban ever did.
    And to clarify something pool man linked me to. Obamas appointment was never seated BUT Holders selections have been in charge at ATF. Up until the foolish EP move I just wanted Holder out and ATF straightened out. That’s just me perhaps.

  170. Poolman, In my state if your license expires you have to go through the whole routine of providing a birth certificate or passport unless you have one on file. I was just curious if other states had mandated that process. Once you have that on file you can renew online. If you don’t have it on file you have to go into the DMV to renew.

  171. I don’t agree with your comment regarding the Taliban and opium production, Alfie. I think I’ve read too many sources that claim it has flourished since we invaded. This from the encyclopedia of drugs:

    Although opium is not used as readily in its pure form anymore, its production has not decreased. The fall of the Taliban government in Afghanistan in 2001 enabled farmers in that rugged country to begin cultivating poppy plants again. Under the Taliban, opium production was strictly controlled; some farmers were severely punished for not following the Taliban’s rules. The Taliban were forced from power when U.S. and coalition forces invaded Afghanistan after terrorists attacked the United States on September 11, 2001. Terrorists had been allowed to train in Afghanistan.

    Once the Taliban fell, opium crops began to thrive again. Increased poppy production throughout Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Southeast Asia in an area known as the Golden Triangle has led to lower prices, higher quality, and larger quantities of heroin in Russia, Europe, and the United States.

    http://www.enotes.com/opium-reference/opium

    Not that there isn’t corruption in the Taliban as well as the various tribes, local and central government. But Taliban had it about eradicated in what we call Afghanistan, in terms of world-wide supply production. Now it produces over 90 percent of the world’s supply.

  172. Raji,

    I imagine since the Patriot Act they ramped up requirements. I’m certain it would be a hassle to apply in any other state, but they have a driving record of everyone in the system. I couldn’t imagine getting away with fake docs in this day and age, but I’m certain it profits some to make that happen and so it will.

    Soon we’ll just be branded at birth and be done with all this PC herding techniques. 😀

  173. Noah, are you ready to lock up every gun dealer who deals a gun that is used in a murder? The ATF didn’t kill anybody. They did their job poorly and some lost their jobs as a result. That’s as it should be.

    Lets just cut to the chance here since nothing short of that gets a straight answer.

    1. For the crime of over 300 deaths, is it your opinion that the firings constitutes sufficient consequences for those involved?

    2. We know 2 previous operations in the same country involving guns happened where guns were not lost, where tracking devices were put on the weapons to keep track, and when the possibility that the guns could be out of their control, the operations were immediately shut down. Having had 2 previous successful operations suggest this administration had no excuse for running the F & F operation this way. This is gross negligence that resulted in hundreds of deaths and just firing doesn’t cover the tab owed. Knowing this, how can you make any excuses for these actions? I would call for any Presidents resignation were he involved in this type of negligence. Why do you give them a pass? (Asked with the understanding if you answered yes to 1. that a firing makes up for 300 deaths, that this question is moot)

    3. If a CEO of a company made choices that resulted in the death of hundreds of people, would his dismissal alone be a suitable punishment?

  174. @ pool man since we’re engaged civilly…
    The Taliban accepted narco-trade. From the 1990’s up to 2001 the Taliban were in charge of the poppy trade.1994 was a bumper crop. The action in 2001 was a ruse. 1) the Taliban govt. were given millions to initiate an anti-drug program. 2) Opium was now suddenly ruled “un-islamic” by the leadership. 3) many viewed this cynically as a win win deal for the drug dealers,cash to the govt and increase in prices. 4) I fully agree with you that given the Talibans “awakened” period meeting its demise later in ’01 has indeed allowed the Afghanis return to the only crop the world seems to enjoy from them.
    My 240 was all about pre-2001 and the history that provided for potential cooperation with Iran. Now we have a failed narco-state,Iran still being Iran and a continuing decrease in American influence and credibility in the region.
    For the record I don’t believe any Iranian cooperation would have been grand,but real. I also believe it would undoubtedly required quid pro quo regards the Kurdish elements that hound Iran,(M something it escapes me now)

  175. Oh, come on Claire! You were one of Rutherford’s favorites once upon a time. That is, until he discovered what most of us already knew – that you were a rank hypocrite, liar and thief.

    If the Dimocratic Party is really the big ship party, it might as well be the Titanic driven into the massive iceberg of progressivism by Captain Bomba. Because you are going down with it, Claire.

    Missouri Dem. Senator May Skip Party’s Convention (Update: McCaskill Confirms She Will Skip Convention)

    Gutless hag.

  176. Watch this new, feckless tool of MSNBC get torched by a 23 year old “kid” who schools this Chaz, Je$$e protege’. The guy is a total, pompous ass right from the start, obviously full of himself as some sword of light – but ends up as another useful idiot of the Rutherford Lawson station.

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2012/06/26/college-republican-totally-schools-msnbcs-tour-why-young-people-arent

    Who the hell is Toure Neblett, Rutherford? Sounds like some effete, bankrupt magazine. Where do you buffoons dredge these stooges up?

  177. I see foolman doesn’t understand that the Taliban blackmailed the world until they were paid massive tribute to temporarily cease. Could you imagine being a POW with poolman? He’d snitch on everyone by day 3 as he eats steak from outside the cell, translating anti American propaganda for the enemy.

  178. Rabbit it will be interesting to see how you balance your conviction that Romney will save us from Obama with the fact that under Romney things won’t change. I almost want Romney to win just to see how the conversations on this blog change next year. 😉

  179. If a CEO of a company made choices that resulted in the death of hundreds of people, would his dismissal alone be a suitable punishment?

    Ask the head of BP. No, hundreds did not die, only about a dozen but environmental damage was extensive and economies were badly hurt. Who went to prison in that case?

    How many bankers have gone to prison for ruining our economy?

  180. While I can’t jump on Poolman’s bandwagon regarding the Taliban and opium I don’t want one thing he said to get lost in the mix. We ARE propping up a President whose brother is a known drug dealer. THAT ain’t cool.

  181. Well you knew if I waited long enough my man Jon Stewart would come up with a knockout. His suggestion tonight is just the red meat you conspiracy theorists need.

    F&F was a secret plot by Obama to flood Mexico with enough guns so they could attack America and retake Texas. 😆

  182. Conviction Romney will save us? I’m hoping he will. But conviction? Sadly. Not. Obama has failed worse then I ever imagined. Stimulus bankrupted us, failure by their own standards. Obamacare stinks. The world is more unstable. God knows what colossal failures we will see round 2. Who the hell wouldn’t give Romney a chance, at least he has successfully ran shit before. Been an executive.

  183. I don’t think Fast and Furious was created to attack the 2nd Amendment. It just kind of worked out that way for a bit. Motherfucers were lecturing us, free American citizens, responsible gun owners, for guns ending up in Mexico while THEY KNOWINGLY WERE ARMING MEXICAN NARCO TERRORISTS WITH THOUSANDS OF GUNS. That alone should enrage any decent person. Then, it turns out that President Transparent is so involved he hides everything from us. Poolman’s conspiracies are about shit that never happens. We’re not talking about controled explosions or Simpson cartoons that predict the future. Were only suggesting motive to a series of events and comments everyone mutually agrees took place. A fairly rational thing to do, if only speculation because your President hid everything.

  184. If a CEO of a company made choices that resulted in the death of hundreds of people, would his dismissal alone be a suitable punishment?

    Ask the head of BP. No, hundreds did not die, only about a dozen but environmental damage was extensive and economies were badly hurt. Who went to prison in that case?

    How many bankers have gone to prison for ruining our economy?

    As you again decided to cherry pick….I wonder..my man…why you have a double standard? Why would you not let off the CEO but claim it is enough for the people involved with F & F?

  185. If the CEO of BP was personally grossly negligent in the explosion, cuff the fucker. As for the bankers, your president’s buddies, fuck yeah, lock the deserving up. What’s your point?

  186. ‘For instance, you could fly around in circles at the ‘speed’ of light. But if you pilot back at the same point you started, your velocity is zero.’

    “Tex, I don’t get this. Just because you’re going in circles, why does that not constitute “direction”?”

    It does. Your *net* displacement in a cartesian coordinate system (x,y) is zero, but your velocity is not and your total displacement is not. For circular motion it is customary to use a polar coordinate (radius, angle) system and speed is in radians/sec, denoting that you HAVE circular motion. Multiply that by the radius (ft/radius, m/radius, etc) to get the actual ft/sec, m/sec, etc.

  187. James@158

    No, you are right. Circular flow is still flow.

    The vector thing is technically correct. You and I speak of speed and velocity as interchangeable, but the physicist would say that speed is a “scalar” – just a number, and velocity is actually a two-part number: speed (scalar) and direction (vector).

    Let me give you an example: Let’s say you are going east, which is direction “i” at 20 mph. Your vector would be 20i.

    For a storm you want location, as well as direction of travel and velocity. If you want to talk about storm location you typically use cartesian coordinates (x, y) – basically gps coordinates. “Tornado on the ground at Joplin,” etc.

    To show direction and speed (velocity), you use use polar coordinates (magnitude, direction). “traveling east-northeast (angle or direction) at 20mph” (magnitude). Note this is a vector quantity now. Think of velocity as an arrow pointing at a certain angle, with the length of the arrow representing the speed part.

    To delineate rotation, you use a vector in polar coordinates: (direction of rotation, speed). That system is just for convenience; you could use any coordinate system you wanted, including cartesian ((change in)x, (change in)y)/time, but you can see it would be very cumbersome, so they use the polar.

    Sorry, didn’t mean to get things so OT.

  188. 250 I knew you’d do the right thing, Rutherford. Chuckle. You’re a swell guy. Michele’s blog’s lead story reports on the fire and her family’s ordeal. It has been a bad year for her. A cousin, I think, has been missing for close to a year.

    252. No one went to prison that I remember, but BP spent a lot of money on penance. Some of the bankers are Obama’s allies and past Obama contributors.They get a free pass. European culture has a long tradition of retribution paid with goods and services. In that respect BP was punished

    I agree with 262 and 260. However, liberals set the rules when they blamed Sarah Palin and other conservatives on the Arizona shootings, accused the Tea Party of being violent racists, etc.By their rules, I can legitimately say Obama and his advisers used Fast and Furious to subvert the Second Amendment. Its fine to make baseless conjectures. .What’s good for the goose…

    Thanks Pfessor. My most advanced math class was college algebra. I need all of the math help I can get.

  189. I am proof that anyone can enter the system with a bogus birth certificate. I needed one for my summer job and for college when I was 18. The clerk couldn’t find my birth certificate in the public records, so she made one for me.

    I used a copy for Social Security, the Air Force, my wedding etc. Two years ago, I asked for a copy to apply for a passport. The county clerk couldn’t find any proof that I had been born. We looked through the book, and I found my birth certificate.

    I was born in a midwife’s home, and our old country doctor arrived just in time for my new mother to joke “what’s up doc?” He waited three years to register my birth, and he got all of the information wrong.

    It was difficult to prove to Iowa that I was who I said I was, since my information was based on an unregistered birth certificate which conflicted with the one on record..I may still be legally two people.

    Iowa Rep Steve King is suing Obama over the freed illegals edict. He is suing not because he disagrees with amnesty but because Obama intruded on the separation of powers provisions of the Constitution. He won a similar case against our previous governor. He said that so far, liberals are not attacking him as one might expect. They know he is right and hope the issue goes away.

    We will watch the Olympic swim trials with our daughter and son-in law on Saturday. it is a big deal for us.

  190. Your *net* displacement in a cartesian coordinate system (x,y) is zero, but your velocity is not and your total displacement is not. For circular motion it is customary to use a polar coordinate (radius, angle) system and speed is in radians/sec, denoting that you HAVE circular motion. Multiply that by the radius (ft/radius, m/radius, etc) to get the actual ft/sec, m/sec, etc.

    Rutherford Lawson’s eyes crossed, his hair straightened, his ears smoked, and his head explodes! It’s a home run!

  191. I was recently introduced to how easy it is to get fake SS and Passports for immigration purposes. There’s a whole underground trade set up with customer service in mind. I saw how it was used for a criminal to flee the country as well as an illegal to gain entry.

  192. I marvel at Obama;s decision to participate in a constitutional democracy, then attack the limitations it places on his authority. He meant it when he said “fundamental transformation” of the country.

    R what does your utopia look like? I am aware of no successful blueprints, yet the left insists on modeling its vision on failed models in order to fix our “broken” country. Though I know you won’t entertain it, this is a serious question.

  193. Don’t worry, James. Looking back, when all was said and done, I would rate my math classes as most applicable to my job, therefore most important as: (1) College Algebra; (2) Calculus; (3) Linear Algebra; (4) Trigonometry. College Algebra is a must for computer programming and understanding rates of return; calculus a must for physics and chemistry (IMO).

    What I liked about calculus and physics, is both changed the way I think about the world. I started out in business, so I took a business calculus class that did a nice job of prepping me for the 5 hour calc. What most “smart” people did in high school. 😡 Pisses me off at myself and my parents for being so out of touch and doing a poor job of preparing their kids to be prepared. They were kids raising kids.

    If I could choose my career again, knowing what I know now, I probably would have picked something like chemical engineering. I discovered I liked math and chemistry fascinated me.

    Alas, I was too much of a screw up when I was young and spent two years of college prepping me for what I should have been doing in high school.

  194. I see foolman doesn’t understand that the Taliban blackmailed the world until they were paid massive tribute to temporarily cease.

    Times have changed. We’ve been funding both sides of the conflict. A win/win for warmongers, a lose/lose for the rest of us.

    The Taliban offered up OBL to us right after 9/11, and we refused. All they wanted was proof he was involved. Seems fair enough. An ‘innocent until proven guilty’ meme. Sounds like something we should honor. But NOoooooo. Not profitable. Not on the agenda.

    Since Iran-Contra was before your time and therefore insignificant 🙄 I’m certain you forget Reagan praised these same guys and even compared them to our founding fathers, while entertaining them at the White House. He also dedicated a flight of the Space Shuttle Columbia to them in 1982. He even made March 21, 1983 officially Afghanistan day:

    Under Reagan, U.S. support for the mujahideen evolved into an official U.S. foreign policy, known as the Reagan Doctrine, which included U.S. support for anti-Soviet movements in Afghanistan, Angola, Nicaragua, and elsewhere. Ronald Reagan praised the mujahideen as “freedom fighters”. The United States Congress, by Senate Joint Resolution 65, even designated March 21, 1983 as “Afghanistan Day” and requested the President issue a proclamation in observance of that day. Reagan did just that.

    Let that be a lesson to all peoples. If you’re praised and honored and ‘a friendly’ in the USA today, you’ll likely end up on the receiving end of a bombing campaign in the next decade or so.

  195. Times Change….Is there anybody that finds that an epiphany?
    I know I don’t and I fully recognize that the history of many nations including the USA are littered with examples. This is Real Politik. This is reality. This is human nature. This is the nature of the beast. This is life at the grown up table.
    Never trust anyone that promises you forever….it can’t be done.

  196. Tex, compared to you science people I am a simpleton. I was trained to farm and to be an historian. I also picked up some good business skills through instinct and practice. Our son followed a path similar to yours, with more concentration on computers. He is now an analyst in San Jose.

    His eyes were tired one Christmas vacation, so I read his text book lessons to him. I found an epiphany like Alfie’s. Everything I read was what I was already doing. I learned without a college course.

    I goofed off too, but I knew where the line was. My parents and teachers were depressed and angry at me, but it was my choice, and I made it anyway. It sounds like you did too, and you probably have some happy memories.

    Kids raising kids sounds right.

    A mystery empire controlled much of the Silk road and later invaded much of India and Afghanistan. They adopted Bhudism and built temples and monuments to their religion, though they were tolerant of other religions. . The Taliban destroyed as many of the old artifacts as they could. Bad Taliban.

  197. Foolman is still outraged the Peloponnesian War took place after the Persian War.

    My favorite part by the treasonous fuck was him buying into Taliban propaganda. Yeah. The Taliban were seeking proof. If I was a POW with poolman I’d shank him in the neck until it got too slippery to hold.

  198. I’d post this on my own site but was really interested in the potential diversity of views on offer here.
    China is setting up shop in Latin America in a sizable way. A real quick read back grounder can be seen at BBC.
    Anyway my question is to what degree should this bother us (USA) and to what degree should we get hemispheric and address it?

  199. oh yeah, in fairness to the overall sprit of #278 it is actually post related since no matter your party… at a min. Fast and Furious has to be seen as a foreign policy/Gringo f@#$ up to the max.

  200. My answer to your question Alfie is that we treat China reciprocally. For every move they make in South America, we should reciprocate in their proximity in Asia.

    We’ve dropped the ball recently with respect to China IMO. Their cozy relationship with Hugo, Fidel and what’s his name in Brazil leaves me feeling a little threatened on my flank.

  201. Tex you’ve hit a large nail square on the hand. The nail Panda Apologists own. I dare say the US Pacific pivot is a concern of China. Sadly they fail to see that their interpretation of Chines waters is a bigger cause of it. China hates on India and we’re trying and recently we’ve expanded relations with Vietnam of all places up to USN visits and potential base.
    China has recently entered into nuclear trade deal with Pakistan.
    I’m with you. We should continue to reach out to folks in Asia. (Japan,Korea,Vietnam and India especially) but I’m kind of thinking we should dust of Monroe while also modernizing and making right our relations in this sphere.
    The sad thing for the latin American folks is that they don’t see how China looks loooonnggg range and will absolutely pawn them down the road. Build highways and dock? Sure now cough up the minerals and buy our cheap shit.

  202. in2somequickies:
    Toure is a punk and it seems to be a resume line item that he goes out of his way to be wrong. Piers Morgan of all folks punked him once.
    One name folks bother me too.
    follow up on my #63…I wasn’t aware of this little factoid. Russia’s Gazprom is under contract to work with Israel on the letters newly tapped gas supplies. This plays well that Russia will look to play a larger role in the region up to and including supporting Israel politically,specifically against Iran and Hezbollah. Did fall asleep and wake up in an alternate universe??????

  203. As you again decided to cherry pick….I wonder..my man…why you have a double standard? Why would you not let off the CEO but claim it is enough for the people involved with F & F?

    I’m probing the possibility that you have selective outrage. I still don’t know what you propose to do. Charge the head of ATF with murder? Charge Holder with murder? The President? Or are you looking for resignations, which you’ve already said are inadequate … if resignations were adequate the ATF firings that have already occurred should have satisfied you.

    Would you like a plan put forth by Holder that implements safeguards to prevent this from happening again? That is something I could sign up for.

  204. What’s your point?

    My point Rabbit is two-fold. First I suspect Noah and a few others of you of selective outrage. Second, sh*t happens. We obviously live in a world where some folks go unpunished based on power and position. When some of our soldiers acted like a$$holes at Abu Graihb, how many higher ups got punished? Damn few if any I suspect.

    When the folks in the field f*ck up, they’re the ones who pay. The guys at the top seldom do and I’m at a point where I’m grateful that ANY sort of justice occurs in these situations.

    I ask you the same thing I asked Noah. What is your definition of justice here? Resignation of Holder? Criminal prosecution of Holder? What are you looking for?

  205. Holder should resign – for mismanagement, lying to Congress, injustice of application of law, and gross incompetence.

    And if you have any scruples left, you would demand it too.

  206. Anyone here have a copy of what R was writing about when the Valarie Plame affair was going on?

    R, hard to take your comments seriously after Giffords’ shooting.

  207. Rutherford Lawson’s eyes crossed, his hair straightened, his ears smoked, and his head explodes! It’s a home run!

    Very funny. No, I actually grasped PF’s point. The polar description is more intuitive for circular motion than a simple Cartesian description.

    You never did answer my question about “end velocity” or whether that is redundant.

    Now that you and PF have my neurons firing, I’m gonna get a quick refresher from wiki just to satisfy myself. I’m thinking vector mathematics somehow ties back to algebra but again my brain is rusty on these things.

    This sociology course is boring me to pieces now that they are discussing research methods. Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!

    Aside to James — I think in this thread or last you asked about the reading. This class has much less reading than a “real” college course. In a real course we would have been assigned entire books to read. So far the assignments have been 1 to 40 pages. But I read slow so some of the reading assignments are sheer torture.

  208. Turn off the damn T.V. Rutherford!

    You’ll have to pry the remote from my cold dead hand!!!!

    And while I’m paraphrasing Heston:

    DAMN YOU!!!!! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    P.S. SOYLENT GREEN — IT’S PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  209. Tigre, at least in the mood I’m in today, discussing one’s utopia is for pot smoking college kids pulling an all-nighter for the exam tomorrow.

    I believe in a society where one’s destiny is not determined at birth. Where a sense of community means we look out for each other. Where superficial differences are treated as just that, superficial.

    From my limited experience I think a democracy based on a properly running capitalist model is the best way to achieve those ends.

  210. I really dont know how to be more clear. I am asking for an explanation as to why you have a double standard on this issue. Why is a firing enough when it is your Messiah, but not for a CEO of a company?

  211. R, hard to take your comments seriously after Giffords’ shooting.

    You boys have got to be the most unforgiving lot on the face of the Earth. I admitted pretty early in the game that I got carried away on Twitter in the heat of the moment. I also maintained, correctly, that Palin got very poor advice on how to handle the attacks against her. I stand by that.

    I think the Plame affair preceded my blog. In any case, I never delved into it and still don’t know enough about it to get my undies in a knot.

  212. Ruthrford, you wrote you might consider voting for Romney, but that you worry about his potentially war mongering foreign policy.

    Minn Governor Tim Pawlentry, a potential vice presidential nominee, criticized Obama’s decision to announce a deadline for withdrawal from Afghanistan. He also dinged Romney for agreeing with Obama.

    Romney countered by saying the deadline must be based on ground conditions, and he backtracked on publically announcing a deadline.

  213. R, why don’t you start by demanding that your so-called transparent Messiah withdraw the privilege so we can see who was involved?

    In how many languages do I have to say that I think the EP move was not the right one?

    Creo que el PE no fue la correcta.

    Does that help?

  214. China was becoming the dominate world power until it turned inward around 1453. Europe filled the power vacume. Russia wants to reclaim its lost grandure.

    Both countries want to replace the United States as a world power, and they want to corner the market on oil and other resources. I agree with Tex and others. We must counter their aggression without causing blatent hostilities. The three countries need each other.

    Thanks Rutherford. I wondered about the reading. “Its People!!” is one of my favorite movie lines.

  215. Let me maybe alleviate a point that seems to keep confounding you on my motivations. I am more concerned with consistent thinking across the board. I don’t care who or what you support, as long as you have a reasoned opinion behind it, and then hold yourself accountable enough that you apply that reasoning without faltering. You cannot tell me out of one side of your mouth you believe something, then out of the other side say you don’t when it suits your needs. The “truth” is more important than these notions of Left, Right, Liberal, Conservative.

    I have watched you apply selective ethics/reasoning and move your point of view all over the spectrum depending on what the issue is. This suggests to me you don’t give a dam about the truth, only that your side wins and you look good doing it. For as long as you tolerate me on this blog, I will ask that you offer up what you believe in, but more importantly that you qualify that belief and justify why you feel your position is right. If I then catch you altering that opinion to suit your need to and refuse to admit your hypocrisy, I will continue to hold you accountable.

  216. “Does that help?”

    No. It’s for the wrong reasons– poor political move.

    R, do you see that you hold Obama and his entire administration to virtually nos standards at all? Everything is excusable, justified or just a miscalculation. Shit. Your only defenses are (1) it doesn’t matter, or (2) here’s an example of a conservative that did the wrong thing. Always.

    Maybe you should go smoke some pot and expand your mind a little. Engage man! Just keep walking if you see a White Hispanic following you.

  217. “Foolman is still outraged the Peloponnesian War took place after the Persian War.” – Rabbit

    Damn, you’re funny. Really funny.

    Arizona in the summer? Death wish? Why don’t you just stick your head in the oven?

  218. Pf, How do those coordinates work when you pilot in space? At some point, referring to points on the Earth’s surface would be irrelevant. The entire planet would become one point of reference. And then when you take into account that that point is moving through space as well as orbiting the Sun and the Sun and the solar system are themselves moving in a spinning galaxy that itself is moving across space … no wonder they use computers. 😉

  219. “We know 2 previous operations in the same country involving guns happened where guns were not lost, where tracking devices were put on the weapons to keep track, and when the possibility that the guns could be out of their control, the operations were immediately shut down.” – N

    Really? Better read this. And feel free to apply the “Nagic Axiom” of shedding unsubstantiated beliefs.

    Seriously dude, all snark aside, if you want to be considered an honest broker here, you should admit the ATF screwed this thing up under both administrations.

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/the-guns-that-got-away-11172011.html

    In March 2006 he signed a contract making him a confidential informant, with the promise that he would be paid unspecified rewards for helping to shut down a weapons pipeline to Mexico. “I thought I was doing something good,” says Detty, 52, a tall man who favors a basic firing-range wardrobe: solid-colored shirt, khaki trousers, and tan, high-laced combat boots. Beyond any rewards, he would also make a profit—in the form of his take from the undercover sales.

    Over the next 19 months, Detty sold a series of suspected traffickers some 450 rifles and handguns—AR-15s, knockoff AK-47s, Colt .38s—all under the aegis of the ATF investigation. Hundreds of hours of conversations were taped. The guns were tracked, court filings show, and U.S. agents had fleeting contacts with Mexican police. But the investigation did not achieve its ambitious goals. The vast majority of the guns were never recovered by U.S. authorities. No kingpins were apprehended, no cartel taken down. Mexico’s drug war raged on.

    Detty now accuses the ATF of misleading him about whether the guns he sold would be recovered. He also complains that the government shortchanged him on reward money. The Justice Dept. has admitted in federal court filings in Tucson that at least two of its prosecutors in Arizona had in 2007 and 2008 questioned the wisdom of ATF’s work with Detty, which was part of an investigation called Operation Wide Receiver. But no one tried to stop it.

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/the-guns-that-got-away-11172011.html

  220. Just keep walking if you see a White Hispanic following you.

    Especially in Florida or Texas where he might have a gun.

    My objection to Obama’s use of EP goes beyond political, though that’s a major consideration. If he did it for the reasons I suspect (to spit in Issa’s face and say enough is enough) then he’s misused EP. EP should be reserved for matters of national security or other areas where disclosure could be damaging (another example might be info that could endanger one of our allies).

    Spite isn’t a valid motive for invoking executive privilege.

  221. “Spite isn’t a valid motive for invoking executive privilege.”

    Neither is covering Holder’s ass or lies concerning Obama’s involvement.

    And you wonder why anyone here would raise the question of impeachment for abuse of authority. 🙄

    Let me guess. It’s trifling and doesn’t matter.

  222. LOL Tex despite several years of Spanish I had to run that one through the translator. cãlulas didn’t translate at all. What I got was:

    Poolman is a fool head stool, stupid, cãlulas washing hair balls.

    LOL

  223. “you’re spelling?”

    We’re even.

    DOH!!

    Ehhh Tigre I see you’re willing to defend Noah without a moment’s thought. The evidence that Thor provided is in direct response to Noah’s assertion that Wide Receiver was properly executed and that F&F failed to follow their excellent example.

  224. And you wonder why anyone here would raise the question of impeachment for abuse of authority.

    Hate to let you in on this but abuse of authority is not ipso facto a crime. Impeachment is reserved for criminal action on the part of the President.

  225. Oh, it’s worse than that Tigre. What these stooges fail to address is the simple point that Bush’s operation, no matter the success or failure, was done with the cooperation, planning and facilitation of the Mexican government.

    Just to demonstrate how bias Bloomberg and Thor, consider this statement:

    Detty speculates that the ATF purposely let semiautomatic rifles walk across the border as part of an Obama Administration plan to justify reinstatement of the assault weapons ban. One problem with this theory, which has many adherents among gun rights advocates, is that the gun walking began during the Bush Administration.

    Notice the second part? Detty never said that – Bloomberg’s lackeys did – the tacit complicity. Hey, Bush did it! And therein lies the key and the difference – plus nobody in the Bush Administration has lied about anything. And this is Thor’s game. Never admit error – justify your error by finding some other historical error.

    That and the fact the Bush Adm. hasn’t lied about Wide Receiver to Congress.

    But hey? What’s a few bald faced lies to Congress? These Dim shills like Thor felt like Bill Clinton should have been awarded medals for perjuring himself in front of a grand jury while most likely excusing a serial rapist and most certainly a predator.

    Jail time is for little people and Republicans.

  226. LOL! Rutherford, that’s not quite what I thought I said, but then the only Spanish I know is slang, thanks, you’re welcome, hi, hello, please, and some simple object words.

    Yo quiero Taco Bueno. Taco Bell los tacos son terribles.

  227. Seriously dude, all snark aside, if you want to be considered an honest broker here, you should admit the ATF screwed this thing up under both administrations.

    Serious question here thor. Who asked me that ” I ” have anything to admit too? I am having a conversation with Rutherford on his inconsistencies and contradictions. I do not recall you or Rutherford asking me my opinion on the ATF. What have I been dishonest about that I would be in fear of not being considered honest?

  228. R, it’s a a felony, treason, or a high crime. Define those for me big boy.

    As for following Noah’s lead, you obviously haven’t bothered with my prior comments. But given the antagonism between you two, I’m afraid to tell you that after stripping away the inflammatory rhetoric he’s got you nailed down pretty well.

    Don’t worry. Numbnutz will there to massage you inner thigh. 😆

  229. Regarding 295, you’ve put words in my mouth Noah. Let’s go back and follow the logic.

    You claimed firing wasn’t enough when so many died.
    I countered that CEO’s don’t go to jail even when folks die. Where’s your outrage there?

    Truth be told, CEO’s often don’t get fired for massive screw ups.

    So never did I say that CEO’s ought to go to jail but Presidents shouldn’t. I simply questioned when and where you hold these standards of punishment.

  230. What have I been dishonest about that I would be in fear of not being considered honest?

    You stated as fact a record of competence under Bush that Thor has successfully challenged.

  231. Numbnutz will there to massage you inner thigh.

    Thanks for that image.

    Actually, regarding antagonism, I thought Noah and I were being pretty civil to each other today.

    And felony, treason and high crime are all CRIME. Abuse of authority as I said earlier is not ipso facto a crime.

  232. Non sequitur, Rutherford. Nobody here is questioning the competency of the ATF in any administration. Waco was enough to convince me the ATF is the EPA with high powered weaponry.

    That’s not a reflection on Bush, because we aren’t talking about the ATF competency. We’re talking about Holder lying to Congress and Bomba invoking executive privilege to protect Holder.

  233. Rutherford. Nice way to dodge the question. Did you notice you walked all the way around it and didn’t answer. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you refuse to answer direct pointed questions. It would take an act of your Messiah (as I am sure God wouldn’t be good enough) to word a question to your satisfaction just to get an answer out of you. Don’t expect my kind nature to continue as long as you make it this hard to get you to respond honestly. Game on…my man.

  234. And fyi…get thor’s dick out of whatever orifice you currently find it in. Stop relying on him and carry your own nut sack for a change.

  235. Here is what I have found after doing a bit of reading, rather than listening to AM radio.

    At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded. As of October 4, 2011, nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms.[19] As of November, charges against one defendant had been dropped; five of them had pled guilty, and one had been sentenced to one year and one day in prison. Two of them remained fugitives.

    I agree with what was done here. People went to jail for incompetence and negligence.

    Here is more on what I found about F & F

    The tactic of letting guns walk, rather than interdicting them and arresting the buyers, led to controversy within the ATF.

    By June 2010, suspects had purchased 1,608 firearms at a cost of over US$1 million at Phoenix-area gun shops. At that time, the ATF was also aware of 179 of those weapons being found at crime scenes in Mexico, and 130 in the United States.[8] As guns traced to Fast and Furious began turning up at violent crime scenes in Mexico, ATF agents stationed there also voiced opposition.

    After hearing of the incident, Dodson reached out to ATF headquarters, ATF’s chief counsel, the ATF ethics section and the Justice Department’s Office of the Inspector General, none of whom immediately responded. He and other agents then contacted Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa (R–IA), ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, who would become a major figure in the investigation of “gunwalking”.

    On January 25, 2011, Burke announced the first details of the case to become officially public, marking the end of Operation Fast and Furious. At a news conference in Phoenix, he reported a 53-count indictment of 20 suspects for buying hundreds of guns intended for illegal export between September 2009 and December 2010. Newell, who was at the conference, called Fast and Furious a “phenomenal case,” while denying that guns had been deliberately allowed to walk into Mexico.

    Altogether, 2,020 firearms were bought by straw purchasers during Fast and Furious.[3] These included AK-47 variants, Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles, .38 caliber revolvers, and FN Five-sevens.[34] As of October 20, 2011, 389 had been recovered in the US and 276 had been recovered in Mexico. The rest remained on the streets, unaccounted for.

    Since the end of Operation Fast and Furious, related firearms have continued to be discovered in criminal hands. As reported in September 2011, the Mexican government stated that an undisclosed number of guns found at about 170 crime scenes were linked to Fast and Furious.[35] U.S. Representative Darrell Issa (R–CA–49) estimated that more than 200 Mexicans were killed by guns linked to the operation.[36] Reflecting on the operation, Attorney General Eric Holder said that the United States government is “…losing the battle to stop the flow of illegal guns to Mexico,”[37] and that the effects of Operation Fast and Furious will most likely to continue to be felt for years, as more walked guns appear at Mexican crime scenes.

    So that is the story…but here is where the problems escalated.

    Reports on Operation Wide Receiver surfaced in March.[55] On March 23, President Barack Obama appeared on Univision and spoke about the “gunwalking” controversy. He said that neither he nor Attorney General Holder authorized Fast and Furious. He also stated, “There may be a situation here in which a serious mistake was made, and if that’s the case then we’ll find out and we’ll hold somebody accountable.”[56]

    On May 3, Attorney General Holder testified to the House Judiciary Committee that he did not know who approved Fast and Furious, but that it was being investigated. He also stated that he “probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks,” a claim which would later be questioned.

    In June, ATF Agent Vince Cefalu, who helped to publicize Fast and Furious, was served with termination papers, in a move by the agency he described as politically motivated retaliation. He had been at odds with ATF management since he filed a complaint over tactics in an unrelated case in 2005.

    On June 14, 2011, a preliminary joint staff report was released by Representative Issa and Senator Grassley.[11] Among the findings: agents were told to stand down rather than interdict weapons, they complained about the strategy and were ignored, and Fast and Furious led to increased violence and death in Mexico.[60] Agents were panicked, certain that “someone was going to die.”[61]

    Representative Issa continued to hold hearings in June and July where ATF officials based in Phoenix and Mexico, and at headquarters in Washington, testified before the committee.[62] ATF agent John Dodson stated that he and other agents were ordered to observe the activities of gun smugglers but not to intervene. He testified:

    —“Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more. Knowing all the while, just days after these purchases, the guns that we saw these individuals buy would begin turning up at crime scenes in the United States and Mexico, we still did nothing. …
    I cannot begin to think of how the risk of letting guns fall into the hands of known criminals could possibly advance any legitimate law enforcement interest.”—

    In October, documents showing that Attorney General Holder’s office had been sent briefings on Fast and Furious as early as July 2010, prompted questions about his May statement that he wasn’t sure of the exact date, but had known about it for only a few weeks.

    On November 8, Holder stated for the first time in Congressional testimony that “gunwalking” was used in Fast and Furious. He remarked that the tactic is unacceptable, and that the operation was “flawed in its concept and flawed in its execution.” He further stated that his office had inaccurately described the program in previous letters sent to Congress, but that this was unintentional.

    **In December, documents showed that some ATF agents discussed using Fast and Furious to provide anecdotal cases to support controversial new rules about gun sales. The regulation, called Demand Letter 3, would require 8,500 firearms dealers in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas that “have a significant number of crime guns traced back to them from Mexico” to report multiple rifle sales.**

    On June 7, 2012, under the threat of being held in contempt of Congress, Attorney General Holder appeared at his seventh Congressional hearing, where he continued to deny knowledge of “gunwalking” by high-level officials. By then, the Justice Department had turned over about 7,000 pages of documents.[74] On June 20, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee voted along party lines to recommend that Holder be held in contempt. At issue were 1,300 pages of documents that had not been turned over to Congress by the DOJ. Earlier that day, President Obama had invoked executive privilege over those documents, marking the first time the privilege has been asserted during his presidency.

    These are the facts as I understand them.

  236. Good summary, James. The Attorney General is the chief lawyer of the U.S. government. The bottom line is Eric Holder has lied – numerous times to Congress.

    To have a known and pathological liar, a thief, and clear black militant as Attorney General, is a disgrace to America and a clear indicator of just how grossly incompetent, profoundly stupid, and willingly corrupt Barack Obama and his entire staff of flunkies really are.

    I am tired of Dimocrats flipping their nose at our laws, governing by judicial fiat, never being held accountable for their insidious failures, buying votes to win elections. Today, a city the size of Stockton, CA, filed bankruptcy on account of this inglorious progressive philosophy. We are running out of time and these assholes are lying to our faces about it, duping the rubes of Fat Granny mind, even if men like Rutherford and Thor are either too blind, too indulged in their immorality and partisanship, or too ignorant to understand these facts.

    If our legal system will not force this criminal out of his office, then I think the honest people of America should declare war on our government, grab the pitchforks and tar, refuse to pay any federal tax whatsoever, force executives to abide the rules of the shareholder and pay nothing, and physically remove men like Eric Holder putting his worthless ass in the hardest time that prison offers.

    When in the hell are millions of Americans going to grab a set and say enough is enough and restore America before it is too late?

  237. “And felony, treason and high crime.”

    Read up before you get Numbnutz worked into a lather.

    BTW, is obstruction of a congressional investigation a crime?

  238. from the bloomberg piece there is this:

    “Beyond identifying where errors occurred and ensuring that they never occur again, we must be careful not to lose sight of the critical problem that [Fast and Furious] has highlighted,” Holder said. “We are losing the battle to stop the flow of illegal guns to Mexico.”

  239. Guys, everything you think you know about the Fast and Furious scandal, might be a oops, never mind. Heads up, before you continue your discussion, you might want to Google.

  240. I think Obama loses no matter what the SCOTUS says tomorrow. Obamacare is a piece of shit. If it’s upheld, Obama’s stuck with a piece of shit nobody wants with a political solution in another administration. If it’s struck, in whole or in part, he’s piece of shit for putting us through the exercise.

  241. I agree, Tigre. Obamacare is toast one way or another. And to make things worse for idiot progressives, I understand Muslim Congressman Keith Ellison is going to push for single payer, “what Americans” always wanted. 😆 😆 These folks are certifiable, but I’m rooting for them. If we can have a repeat of Nov. 2010, all the power to Imam Keith. And they are bragging about Nancy Pelosi being on MSNBC tomorrow! Whoopee! Rachel is going on about how it’s the biggest deal since the SCOTUS “handed” the Presidency to George Bush. 😈

    Medicare for ALL! Only problem is, Medicare is going broke as is and everyone knows it. I can’t wait for these dumbasses to push their crap once again if Obama loses. You talk about stroking the flames.

    But if the SCOTUS upholds Obamacare, even better. Then we will have a repeat of Nov. 2010.

  242. Regarding Thor, barring all the sexual imagery Noah, I plead guilty as charged. Every now and then a left leaning fellow like Thor comes along who can quickly get his hand on good “evidence” before I can. Chalk it up primarily to my laziness. When it happens, I applaud it and I applaud it LOUDLY.

  243. then I think the honest people of America should declare war on our government, grab the pitchforks and tar, refuse to pay any federal tax whatsoever, force executives to abide the rules of the shareholder and pay nothing, and physically remove men like Eric Holder putting his worthless ass in the hardest time that prison offers.

    You’re funny Tex. You want the honest people of America to opt out of the system BUT throw Holder in jail … something that can only be done from within the system.

    But I’m beginning to agree with you, my friend. I think it’s time all of us political enemies parted ways. A peaceable agreement to sever the country in two. The nation is so polarized with each believing the other lives in a fantasy land, that I don’t see the solution. Quite frankly, a true uniter, which Obama is not, will get assassinated … history proves it. So we can’t hope for some POTUS to come along and bring us together.

    The only question that remains is how do we divide the land?

    After delivering multiple accusations of melodrama, I’m sure I will regret saying the above tomorrow.

  244. By the way, after reading Alfie’s quote from Bloomberg, it IS worth reminding everyone that we don’t need F&F to prove that lots of illegal guns go to Mexico … and what’s worse as odd as this sounds, it’s done legally. I just heard today that you an buy a gun (I believe) in Arizona and legally sell that gun to anyone you damn well please. And the second buyer can take the gun(s) to Mexico with no problem. We have nothing in place in some of these states to track gun sales at all.

    We restrict who can buy cigarettes. We restrict where they can be smoked. But guns … it’s a free for all. And you NRA fanatics don’t see any problem with it.

  245. Rutherford, you have an incredibly difficult time discerning good “evidence.” And that is your problem now and it was your problem during that parody of Giffords where you made an admitted ass of yourself.

    When you listen every night to mouthpiece shills like Rachel Maddow, you eventually get burned because they market in malodorous horseshit. I’m listening to her now talk about how F&F scandal has now been rendered moot by some “investigative journalist” from Fortune magazine. Now it’s the NRA’s fault. 😆 The rules are too lax. Uh huh.

    What you are very good at is taking someone’s propaganda like Thor, and don’t kid yourself Thor is as rank a propagandist as that shit you frequently mouth from Rachel, quickly determine that MSNBC/NYTimes/Wapo/HuffPO message = truth, and then run with it as established fact.

    P.S. – Tonight, on that “highly biased and untruthful” news source FOX, Juan Williams, uber, inbred lefty, hosted the O’Reilly factor with several progressive guests. So when is Rachel Maddow going to get a uber righty to host her show since you claim MSNBC holds righteous standards?

    Unlike Thor, you’re not a complete moral relativist who bends the truth when necessary. But you’re every bit as bad at selective outrage.

  246. The Fortune article which is next on my agenda to read is, I believe, what “Newt” was referring to earlier in the thread. I got a preview of it on Tingles Matthews show this evening and apparently it puts F&F in a different light. Its biggest revelation from what I understand is that the guns that walked, walked by accident … there was never a deliberate program to let these guns get into the wrong hands.

    Don’t hold me to this as I got it second hand. I’m going to go searching for the Fortune article now. (I love how you mock Fortune when if it came out of NYT, WAPO or HuffPo you would also have totally dismissed it. Like Fox and PJMedia would ever have run with such a story even if they knew it was true.)

  247. Well Rutherford you picked from what I wrote and answered the parts you were capable of answering. If you want to act like a spoiled child and play these little games I am more than happy to dumb this down and ask you only the questions I feel that fall within your capabilities.

  248. But I’m beginning to agree with you, my friend. I think it’s time all of us political enemies parted ways. A peaceable agreement to sever the country in two.

    Good. We can finally find common ground – and I say that with somebody I generally enjoy trading barbs. I do consider you a friend of sorts, a talented writer, and I certainly appreciate the use of your blog. I’ve met some really good guys here, and some really loathsome folk too. This blog has helped me reach my conclusions that it is the only way – to separate ourselves, start new. I just think the current Dimocratic party is an anathema to the basic foundations of this country, liberty, even freedom. It is so corrupt, the only solution is to utterly destroy it or be free from its bonds.

    I don’t wish you ill will, Rutherford. I hope everything turns around for you. Truthfully, I like you, respect some aspects of your personality, and give you kudos for your tolerance. I would have said the same thing of Jim Dougan. In that way, you two were very different than say a Graychin or Fake type.

    I’ve gotten to the point if I never heard from that ilk again, it would be too soon. I know that’s harsh, even unChristian like – and yes, that does me a hypocrite of sorts. It’s a fault and a weakness contrary to the rest of my message. But I can’t run away from your philosophy, or shake the dust from me feet.

    I want all leftist politics completely out of any sphere of influence that affects me and my family. Leftists have caused far more cost, liability, risk, endangerment, disruption, even anger and danger to my family than any radical terrorist. In fact, I think your philosophy aids and abets America’s enemies, creates traitorous loons like Poolman,and is more often than not partner to sheer evil.

    Does that mean I immediately hold somebody in higher regard because they are Republican and Conservative? No, it does not. Example that you and I share – a lot of these Corporate Execs are awful. Many of them are self-absorbed, self-serving skunks too. But I can more fight fairly against them. I can’t fight loaded courts, corrupt justices, rank propagandists, lying Attorney Generals.

    When the curtain is drawn, you and I have irreconcilable differences – core differences. You know it and I know it. Perhaps others feel that way too – I don’t know. But you and I willl never ever see eye to eye on anything except perhaps importance of family.

    I fully admit a hypothetical solution like that above is dire. It would create complete chaos. But it’s going to come to something like that and hopefully it stops there without blood shed, because millions of us are fed up with supporting dependency that millions of Dimocrats use to buy votes, cheat, steal, lie, and run the whole damn country into the ground. This is not the party of Kennedy and LBJ. And I have no intent of going down with you if I can help it. I think the Dimocratic party is so morally bankrupt, there is little or nothing of value to salvage.

    I know I would be better off without Leftists. I would miss our conversations. But I would trade that for you having no influence of anything to do with my own life. Sorry if that offends. It is not meant to.

  249. F*cking irrelevant?

    In a world of amorality, where politics is king and Obama your greatest hope, perhaps. A party that apparently is incapable of introspection. But I suppose you didn’t notice that your philosophy and your adopted party lends itself to Islamic preference – the same Islam where its radicals recently decimated 3,000 of your countrymen.

    That may not put you in the same capacity as some tool like Poolman, who claims we did it. He’s beyond reprehensible or mentally ill. Of that I’m sure. But I’m not sure I couldn’t say the same of most leftists.

    However, it does put you living on the next block over. And this is just another in a long list of indicators to me that eventually I can no longer tolerate all these differences in aggregate. If you can’t recognize good from evil, light from dark, sweet from bitter, eventually I’m forced to conclude I’d be better with some distance – a place that your decisions have little influence in my life.

    When you define me as adversary but have welcome arms for any sharia Muslim as long as they’ll vote straight ‘D’ and call themselves moderate, then I am forced to come to some really dark conclusions.

  250. R, I agree. I think Newt is referring to the Fortune article. I read it this morning. An entirely different take coming from Dodson’s boss, Voth. Issa might not be thrilled to hear his side of the story, but I bet the Inspector General is listening.

  251. Nagic,

    From your Blaze article:

    “In no way does that excuse the Bush administration from allowing a poorly-planned operation to proceed.”

    I guess even that steaming pile knows wide receiver was a stupid idea.

  252. “Pf, How do those coordinates work when you pilot in space? At some point, referring to points on the Earth’s surface would be irrelevant. The entire planet would become one point of reference.”

    Amazing, very intuitive question! It is a problem, isn’t it??

    We only touched very briefly on this in a calculus class I had in the ‘seventies, so I may not remember it perfectly, but as I recall, the system simply relies on itself. Where you WERE in space is just set as a zero point and everything is calculated on an ongoing basis from your last known position. My recollection is that we only discussed the concept in passing and did not do any problems.

    My best friend from high school ended up going to med school after a long meandering; he and I have discussed at least fifty times how inadequate our educations were – especially in math. When I started taking engineering classes in the ‘nineties, he told me he was SO jealous, especially because I was learning about vectors, which always baffled us both.

    I am collaborating with a London-born Pakistani friend on some medical device development; he and his wife have home-schooled their children. The FIFTEEN YEAR-OLD girl wants to go into space; she is doing calculus these days on her kitchen table and starting community college in the fall to get a further leg up. She and my nineteen year-old will be driving together. It is such an embarrassment to see the two of them together; she is far, far ahead of him (except in video-game skills, of course). This family lives and breathes academics. We are SO in trouble in this country.

  253. Not for nothing but if the Fortune writer uncovered great truths available to Holder I don’t see why Holder is hiding.
    All the journalists,journwhorealists and everyone else can write all the pages they want…The only pages that matter are the 1300+ Holder is holding.
    Stop the spin and accept that there is something afoot here beyond partisan politics. Future Congresses will undoubtedly request nay demand papers. In any other time (non election year) the lefties here would be all Rah Rah!! about the congress critters getting their vetting on. Stop it!

  254. Pfesser, your kids were in public schools, weren’t they? I remember you telling me the story of the public school board, but I wasn’t sure which kid that represented, or if represented all of them.

    Neither of my children ever went to a public school. It cost us a small fortune, but looking back and now measuring the college careers, it was worth it. Undoubtedly, the schools did a very good job of college preparatory. I insisted my oldest take calculus in college even though she had “CLEPed” out by scoring a ‘5’ on the advanced placement tests in high school. I was worried that score was no indicator of real difficulty.

    The high school instructor was so good (she was 75 years old), that 97% of the children in the class scored either a ‘4’ or ‘5’, ‘5’ being the highest score possible – and the instructor called every child after the scores were posted to congratulate them – not the parents; the child. Those are bygone days of quality education I’m afraid.

    Daughter #1 told after me cake walking through the college Calculus course, that her high school class was more difficult. She breezed through differential equations too. If I were in a public school system, I would insist my children take those AP classes they offer if they were capable.

    Tulsa public high schools have gotten so rotten, 14% of the students don’t have to take some remedial college preparation after acceptance.

    We have failed our kids big time. And yes, our country is in trouble big time. One of my reasons for wanting to so separate from leftists is to restore public education to its rightful place of excellence.

  255. Alfie, I have one question myself for all the ‘liberals’ on this board. One that has escaped asking to the best of my knowledge.

    Exactly what was the purpose of Fast & Furious if not to nefariously extract tougher gun laws?

    They didn’t trace the guns. They captured no criminals (how could they?). Operation Wide Receiver was stopped two years before Obama took office because of a lack of success of grabbing any of the big shots.

    So exactly what purpose was F & F to serve?

  256. I agree with 353 110%. We have the leftist dream in Europe crashing down right before their eyes. We have Liberal cities across the nation going bankrupt one after another, and these idiots are drinking the “we are doing fine” cool-aid. This kind of stupid cannot be fixed. Not 1 Leftist on this blog can or will tell us how we can pay for all of these social programs and survive this debt. They are like little kids when you tell them they cant have something because we cannot afford it, and they are holding out their grubby little hands stomping their feet saying “BUT I WANT IT.” <—– That right there is entire Leftist thought process. They cannot grasp basic economics nor do they care too. They want it, and like a child, believe that somehow it will all just magically work out.

  257. I couldn’t agree more PF on education, we are in trouble. We do an hour or two, as her patients permits, of flash cards each day with our 1 year old. I have nephews 4, 7, 8, 14, 16, 19 years of age. What I see coming out of our schools through them, I expect only 50% of my child’s education will be coming from that source and we will be doing the rest. I am fortunate that I have a wife that does math problems for entertainment.

  258. Anyone notice how thor just cannot make a comment without insulting someone?

    What do you expect? The leftist meme and another grammatically correct parrot. Probably a journalist or English major. 😈 Treat him as such.

    Remember Nagic, these are the people that consider Barack Obama an intellect like no other. Cinco de Cuatro, spoken in Austrian by President Corpse Man makes them stand up and bark and piss themselves.

    Rutherford scolds me and the wallflowers of the Right get all bent at me for “being mean”. But if you get tired of the pedanticism, I highly recommend a jaunt to Thor’s abortion of a blog. There’s a virtual cornucopia of material to choose from to use as daisy cutter. And the “fiction” is sublime. 😉

  259. Tex, did you send your kids to a religious school?

    We did. Basically, the same schools my wife attended. And my wife is one of the smartest folks I know. They’ve been doing right it for a long time.

    Wanted parents of like mind too. Away from the failure and stench of the Left.

    There, if they don’t follow the rules or get apoplectic about the name of Jesus, you’re out – and there’s a waiting list of parents just dying to get in.

  260. I am more than happy to dumb this down and ask you only the questions I feel that fall within your capabilities.

    I’m grateful for your compassion. 🙄

  261. We are looking to do the same with ours. We are putting a little aside in an education fund twice a month and hopefully will have enough saved by then to stay a year or two ahead of tuition by the time they start.

    What I really don’t get about thor and his kind are how they cannot see the impossibility of their demands on our country. If they were to take their plans to their final conclusion (thanks Europe for showing us what we will look like 10 yrs down the road), they would see we are headed for an ugly place that they are ill equipped to deal with. Can you imagine any of these Leftist trying to survive if we had a major falling out in our economy and the social system broke down? Mother Nature is a cruel mistress. She doesn’t give out food stamps when you are hungry. She doesn’t care if you cannot afford to heat your home. In the game of survival of the fittest, I have to imagine theirs will be a most unpleasant end, and deservedly so I imagine.

  262. The article “The Truth About Fast and Furious”, implies facts the author does not know because they are hidden in the DOJ documents Lower echelon employees know little except what they face. In that respect, it is a lie designed to help Eric Holder and President Obama.

    Jay Carney said the contempt dispute is political theater. Most Americans don’t care about separation of powers. By the rules set by leftists, I maintain that a poorly educated population benefits the Democrats, because they play the emotions of ignorant people with slogans and sound bytes. Therefore, a bad educational system benefits Democrats. Why would they want to change it?

    I’ve noticed liberals wish death or misfortune upon their opponents more often than conservatives do. For that reason, i have no problem with Tex’s being mean. If there were no Tex, we would have had to invent him.

  263. I was positive the court would screw Obama over. I’m very happy to be wrong.

    And I’m also so happy that Republicans can rejoice that THEIR idea got supported by the Supremes.

    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

  264. Your celebration is at the detriment of your children Rutherford. I hope you enjoy your pampered life while they work their entire lives paying your debt. Not sure how you can live with yourself.

  265. My celebration may be premature. I’m now hearing that states can opt out which could mess up the whole thing. Perhaps the victory is only symbolic … in practicality, the court may very well have killed the thing. It revolves around medicare funding. I’ll need to hear more to know what’s going on.

  266. Tex Obama admin hopefully learned a lesson from this and will move into heavy PR mode. “We protect your health while Romney sends your jobs to India.” THAT is the message.

  267. No Rutherford. The real message is:

    Since it now has been classified as a Tax, we ca now have Tax Reform as a leg to stand on in court.

    See you in November. 😉

    I could be wrong, but I think your smarmy arrogance is going to be very short lived. And of course, I will be here to remind you of it.

  268. Romney is a business man who accomplished more in his career than your entire tainted gene pool has done in its entirety Rutherford. Ditch the talking points and put out something of merit.

  269. An update from what I understand …. the law originally said if states didn’t expand their medicaid coverage, they’d lose all their medicaid funding. That was ruled unconstitutional. States can opt out of medicaid expansion. States cannot opt out of the mandate. That’s what I understand at this point.

  270. Lol. Rutherford was positive the courts would screw Obama over. It’s always about the man.

    Well, I guess it really was a tax this whole time like we said.

  271. I wasn’t as positive about the decision as you were Rutherford. I thought it might turn out this way because of a radio interview last week or so.KFAB, an Omaha radio station interviewed a guest, Sean McGuire, who predicted this decision. He said there would never have been a Supreme Court challenge had the Democrats not lied about the mandate’s being called a tax. Chief Justice Roberts said as much.

    The guest is now on the air, and he is gloating because he was right. He does believe this is a bad law, and we will pay a lot of money though taxes, employer penalties, insurance and health care costs. Entitlements drive most federal spending, and we now have a new middle class entitlement.

    I hadn’t heard states could opt out. That would make it interesting. Someone made that point on this blog. “Why would Obamacare be unconstitional when Romneycare was?” My point was that Obama care was a federal mandate, and Romney care applied to only one state. If I stumbled onto something valid, it makes me happy.

  272. If Holder had any chance of avoiding a contempt vote in the House today, I predict that hope is gone. The House GOP having just lost the health care debate will take it out on Holder. They will want at least one win today and it will be at Holder’s expense.

  273. From what I understand CNN, Fox (no surprise) and Drudge (no surprise) reported that the law got struck down … cos they didn’t read beyond the “but”. LOL Some real crack journalism there!

  274. There are now no limits to federal power under the commerce clause conceptually confused with the power to tax.

    Rutherford, you really should go for a walk before you make an ass of yourself again with the rejoicing. Your only concern is validation not implications or rationale. It is a pathetic display on your part, particularly since you haven’t got a clue as to the substance of the arguments of the the scope of the Court’s holding.

  275. May God have mercy on our souls.

    So, does this hurt or help Romney?

    (R, Drudge reported the individual mandate struck down immediately after the opinion was released. I was looking at it. What were you looking at Mr. MSNBC)

  276. You gotta love headlines. While I’m watching coverage, I see the following headline scroll across the bottom of the screen:

    “Man shot while chewing another man’s face.”

    WTF????

  277. “Man shot while chewing another man’s face.”

    WTF????

    Just another hungry black man looking for his next meal. This time it turned out to be a homeless happy meal.

  278. Drudge reported the individual mandate struck down

    You’re nitpicking. If the mandate went down, so would the rest of it in practicality. So yes … Drudge CNN and Fox got it wrong. The source was my wife who read about it on the net.

    As long as Romney keeps his mouth shut about health care, I don’t think it will hurt him that much. Health care was NEVER his sweet spot because of what he did in MA. This development just ensures that he keeps his mouth shut about it … after he makes his obligatory statement this morning.

    Apparently Poolman’s fav Ron Paul said that just cos the SCOTUS says something is constitutional, doesn’t make it so. LOL

  279. “The House GOP having just lost the health care debate will take it out on Holder.”

    Yeah. Like they hadn’t formulated their opinions.

    What about the dems that vote to hold him in contempt?

  280. Both sides got what they wanted from the Court today, liberals got healthcare and conservatives received another fringe political issue. Conservatives will vote for candidates who run against the Court decision and we will all get to see if Romney can keep his balance with both of his feet behind his head. Will Romney ultimately fall towards the left or will he fall towards the right? Place your bets. $10,000?

  281. “You’re nitpicking. If the mandate went down, so would the rest of it in practicality.”

    You are such a tool.

    It was going up real time. They didn’t report anywhere that the act was struck down, literally or politically. I am reading the opinion and what was reported was accurate. Clear enough for you?

    Duh.

    Go back to your MSNBC. You’ll have to defend this piece of shit bill through November and pay for it on a scale you are incapable of comprehending.

  282. Newt, he’s already staked his claim.

    I’ll put $10k on ginning up the republican and independents. Nobody other than the desperate-for-affirmation MSNBCers want this stinking pile of shit.

    I think Obama cult’s euphoria will be short lived.

  283. I am reading the opinion and what was reported was accurate.

    Wrong buffalo breath. It was not accurate. The mandate was not struck down and Drudge, CNN and Fox initially reported it was … cos they didn’t read past the “but” … i.e. mandate not constitutional via commerce clause BUT constitutional via taxing authority.

  284. Isnt it funny that Obama fed us the lie that he would not raise taxes to pay for Obamacare…and then has it rules that this is a tax? Obama has now given the middle class a massive tax raise..its official.

  285. “mandate not constitutional via commerce clause BUT constitutional via taxing authority.”

    What the fuck are you talking about? NOT struck down means NOT struck down. Fuck. You’re doing that stupid juvenile word game shit again. Grow up.

  286. Semantics wont save your kids as you live off their future Rutherford. You are no different than a child molester. You just fck your kids in a different way. I really mean that.

  287. Tigre have you lost your mind? Maybe we’re misunderstanding each other. Are you saying CNN,. Fox and/or Drudge initially reported that the mandate was NOT struck down? If that is what you’re saying, then from my understanding, you’re wrong. They DID report initially that it WAS struck down.

    Damn this is basic English. Are we just talking past each other or is there some misunderstanding?

  288. Alfie … it was constitutional on a state level in Massachusetts. Of all the folks on this board, with all due respect, I think you’re in the most precarious position to criticize this ruling.

  289. A repeal vote is a symbolic gesture unless the House votes to end funding for the law. That would be an interesting summer diversion.

    Romney just finished his speech. He said we must get rid of Obama.

    How many people know this law takes a half billion dollars from Medicare? Medicare Advantage will become more expensive or watered down. You might need Medicare some day.

  290. Noah perhaps I did misunderstand Tigre …. I’m waiting for him to tell me if he said what I thought he said. In the meantime, counselor, why don’t you represent your client and tell me the root of my misunderstanding?

  291. I dont speak for other people…especially Tigre because he can carry his own jock. But more to the point I doubt I would find he exact 5 words you would use to get you to admit to any point I could make. No point spending my time with my nose buried in a thesaurus trying to find a word you can live with.

  292. @421.
    First it was a state level item perhaps after rereads the fucking Constitution you can take a gander.
    Second I don’t support mandates because quite frankly I support the “Society can tell you to die” plan. If you choose not to have insurance good for you. Nobody else pays. Now I get to pay even more,thanks.
    Third it was conceptualized and put into place at a time of good economic times and by tapping Medicaid surpluses. Both those things are gone and costs have skyrocketed. What till you see that on the national level. This is going to kill America! That isn’t drama that’s a fact because just like Obama-Lite Axelrod protege Gov. Deval Patrick has learned you can’t have this system without eventually looking into price controls.
    Lastly the MA plan only went after 2-4% of the population again at the state level. Doesn’t compare to the nation and that is with the Medicaid expansion penalty thing being canned which is the only thing Roberts did get right.

  293. @422 two avenues and a question there.
    The question is: Who do you think AARP just decided to endorse?
    The Aves. First Medicare was never gonna be an option for me just like SS.
    Anyone really want government healthcare the only way to do it is eliminate ALL government programs and adopt a single payer price controlled care rationed plan.

  294. Santorum was right, from a health care perspective alone, Romney is the worst possible GOP candidate. Fortunately for Romney, health care is not the issue of the day …. jobs are. If he’s smart, his remarks today will be his last on the subject and he’ll get back to jobs.

  295. Sometimes it seems things happen for a reason. While my wife and I were on our morning walk, I told her that sometimes you need a little push to get yourself out of a familiar but miserable life, to force you to take a chance on the life you want. The takeover of my hospital by the Evil Empire, forcing me out of a boring and supremely unsatisfying situation just when doctors are enduring the Final Fascist Takeover of Medicine seems to be providential.

    Now I see that Obamacare has been upheld; any lingering doubts about ever returning to hospital-based medicine are gone. It’s always an emergency backup plan, but ‘way, ‘way down the list of desperation. Time for me to live thin, play with my granddaughter, take classes again, and maybe – just maybe – invent something useful for my unfortunate former colleagues, the doctors. I hope they can read their own X-rays, for the patients’ sakes.

    Congratulations, Hussein; you just fucked yourself out of $300,000 in corporate taxes every year. Nice going, Schmuck.

  296. Actually Romney has just been handed the red meat banner he needed. Repeal & Replace. He can have a variety of streamers flying from the pole too which in a 5 month run will be to his advantage.
    Not to be a sorehead or anything but seriously even for a reelected Obama the 2014 kick-ins of his spawn were going to be an issue.

    5 months of a non recovering economy.
    An aggressive FP tour from China and Russia
    People still dying in Afghanistan with July marking a major departure of foreign forces.

  297. Tigre, let’s bury the hatchet on the Drudge debate ….. I have a question for you regarding your legal philosophy.

    Roberts said the SCOTUS should find a way to uphold laws and not look for ways to defeat them. Or in other words, if a constitutional justification for a law can be found, it must be used.

    Your thoughts?

  298. Alfie regarding 431, no doubt Obama has more than enough problems between now and November that this ruling ultimately is a fly on an elephant’s ass. I agree with my favorite pundits that the importance of this ruling is at least the GOPhers can’t say “Obama violated the Constitution”. So it’s one less arrow in their quiver.

    I may not be reading you right Alfie but I agree that the 2014 kick-in does not help matters. Folks want relief now. We are a very impatient people.

  299. Newt, the announced plan to vote on repeal in July proves the GOP is incapable of moving on. Personally, I think this announcement on the day of SCOTUS decision makes them look incredibly petty.

  300. The Dred Scott decision settled the issue of slavery until it didn’t. This is not yet settled because of a Supreme Court decision. It is now the legislature’s job to alter or kill the bill if they feel it is harmful to the country. The other side has the duty to save the law.

    Neither side should move on until the battle ends. “…the GOP is incapable of moving on…” I pray they remain so.If the situation were reversed the Democrats would not move on.

  301. Obama care is the largest tax in the world, and is going to be paid by the uninsured. The very people Obama is supposed to be looking out for. Add to this to what the immigration issue does to the unemployed legal residence in this country and you have a guy he has put the screws to the poor more than anyone in recent memory.

  302. I agree Rutherford, the GOP is trying any and all means to be relevant to the national debate. It will work for the base, but with Independents not so much. I see it being used as a real fundraiser in places like the South and Midwest, but the law stood and it would be a waste of time for the GOP to attempt to repeal it.

  303. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general **Welfare** of the United States.

    Can someone tell Obama in this article that this did not mean healthcare and food-stamps?

  304. Newt, could you articulate for me how spending money that is not yours is the right thing to do? There is not enough money to pay for the social programs we had before Messiah-care. There certainly is not enough money to pay for it now. That means you are spending future generations money. How do you justify this immoral act.

  305. “Roberts said the SCOTUS should find a way to uphold laws and not look for ways to defeat them. Or in other words, if a constitutional justification for a law can be found, it must be used.

    Your thoughts?”

    That’s doctrine. I don’t get your question.

    One thing labor from when it comes jurisprudence is taking a kernel and presuming it an ear. I don’t mean that to be offensive. Obviously that doctrine yields to others.

    For example, the immigration ruling. There was the “facially unconstitutional test” and the yet to be seen “as applied” test controlling the exact same statutory provisions. Which is it? (that’s rhetorical).

    To a related point, look at your conflation of the MA and federal health care models in your attack on Romney. Alfie has restated for you for the 100th time (hyperbole alert) the critical distinctions and you always come back to the same point. I know I have traveled there, and probably Tex and others. But you won’t give it any reasoned consideration becuase to it’s the same no matter what anybody says. It’s like hearing Numbnutz say for the millionth time (that’s hyperbole R, calm down), “do we want to go back to losing 700k jobs a month. . . ” In order to have a dialogue, you’ll have to care to understand — the ultimate source of all of my frustrations when it comes to legal issues.

    At this stage, enjoy your celebration along with your deep thinking MSNBC friends (sarcasm). it will be short lived and you will be choking on it when the reality sets in.

    ___________________________

    Alfie, I agree, I think this is going to become a hot issue for Romney.

  306. “Newt, the announced plan to vote on repeal in July proves the GOP is incapable of moving on. Personally, I think this announcement on the day of SCOTUS decision makes them look incredibly petty.”

    Your observation and opinion is petty.

    These are serious, serious issues that don’t all turn your need to validate Obama.

  307. Who would have thought that Obamacare would be the secondary concern of this ruling. Who would have thought that today government would just receive a massive boost in power as they can now tax ANYTHING.

    The government doesn’t like what you do, they can now tax you into insolvency to force you to comply with how they want you to act and behave. The United Communist States of America was born this day.

  308. @435…you think??? Seeing as both Congress and the Solicitor General purposefully avoided deeming the Acts penalties as a tax yeah I have to say Roberts did something other than his job.

    @444 mmmm Yeah see my 417. @ Rutherford just for the record. My ire isn’t about ObamaCare. My furor is all about government power as I’ve sloppily muttered in my latest with a better explanation in the comments to Raji.

    As an aside to Rutherford. I thought I said it before. I’d be willing to have a dual payer system. The masses can pay into Medicare. There will be price controls and rationing and regional trusts. For those that want to they can buy into the dual side via private insurance and providers. They can also do “upgrades” within the trust. All you have to do is eliminate ALL government healthcare, SCHIP, Medicaid, politicians, fed/state employees,even VA.

  309. Alfie and others, your right, this is ALL about government power. I’m sick to stomach at the scope of this ruling, particularly in the hands of Obama supporters and other populists.

  310. Your humble Rabbit minored in the soft sciences. Specifically, I minored in political science. In the PS department the students and professors circle jerk to Machiavelli and Lennon. They stroke off to Themsticles lying to the Athenians, in effect, saving them by convincing them to build a fleet to face Persia, a threat that didn’t concern the people at the time. Nanny knew best and lying was good. If anyone here thinks Obama and the zombies that suck him off give a shit that he lied to the people about the
    mandate not being a tax you got it wrong. They think its awesome. High five material.

  311. The past century has been all about taxing. Printing fiat is a tax on us. Try not paying in. Unless you’re diving through loopholes, they get can get real persuasive.

    This all started when you wanted a king, then relief from that tyrant, succeeding in spreading the tyranny around. Now you just want somebody to throw tomatoes (or shoes) at, while nothing gets fixed.

    I can’t believe we’re worrying about sinking this ship from a healthcare mandate when we’re blowing buku bucks with our big ass MIC while terrorizing the world with drones. We could have awesome and inclusive health for everyone IF people were the priority. They aren’t. Matter of fact, they’d like to dump the bottom few layers and make more room for the producers. It’s a farm, baby.

    This country has ZERO sense of priority for its citizens. Empire is king. Not even national. A global entity. God save the queen.

    Romney is Goldman Sachs’ man puppet. He will be happy to do their bidding. Groomed for the chance. It doesn’t take him long to step and fetch. Just give him his cue. I say we travel him cross country on a luggage rack. Really give him a sense of the land. 😎

  312. Anyone notice how thor just cannot make a comment without insulting someone? – Nagic

    This is laughable coming from the person with the highest insult to font ratio on this blog. Or did you mean it as a compliment when you accused me of sucking R’s Dick Cheney or you accused Alfie of being a commie or you dissed R’s entire gene pool?

  313. “This family lives and breathes academics. We are SO in trouble in this country.” – PF

    I have great hope for this country. But I do agree, education starts with the family.

  314. @453…Thor throw me a bone here. What do you hang your hope hat upon? Serious question. I’m not seeing rays of optimism anywhere I look. Share.

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