I Think Therefore I am Not

I’ve noticed an odd trend in conservative circles revolving around self-identification. Some folks at the conservative end of the spectrum seem to have a clear idea of what they are NOT. Unfortunately, this self perception is delusional. Two cases in point:

I spent the better part of last week confined to a hospital suffering from flu-induced pneumonia. To the hospital’s credit, they had a cable line up that could rival that of the finest hotel. Unfortunately, my liberal leanings were short circuited by the absence of MSNBC. I knew if I watched too much CNN I would only extend my hospital stay. So I did what any other political junkie in my position would have done …. I watched Fox News Channel. Whether I watched “The Five” or Neil Cavuto or Hannity, one consistent meme I heard repeated was their derogatory references to “the main stream media”. The more I heard this, the funnier it seemed. Fox News Channel consistently beats CNN and MSNBC in ratings. While I hate to admit it, they are the kings of 24 hour news coverage. More folks watch them than their competitors. So could someone please tell me how FNC is not the mainstream media? These are the outsiders? These are the underdogs? Give me a break. Of course, claiming not to be mainstream pumps up their aggrieved victim status and clearly if conservative politics has become anything of late it has become the politics of aggrievement. Still I found this self-delusion of being outside the mainstream pretty amusing.

The other example involves the GOP Presidential contenders themselves. If you left your brain in your bottom desk drawer, you would believe that these are four brave Washington outsiders. These are men who rail at big government. They are the ones who will change everything. Yet even a cursory examination reveals that three of the four are Washington institutions. Newt Gingrich, the infamous Speaker of the House from the 1990’s has since his ouster profited from Washington connections for the past 20 years. Ron Paul has been a House Representative since 1976 with about a 12 year hiatus in the late 80’s/early 90’s. For all his rhetoric and a good 30 years of Washington experience, he hasn’t moved the needle one inch toward a less intrusive Washington.

And then there is former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum. Santorum has been a Washington fixture since 1991 and qualifies as an outsider now only because he lost his Senate seat in 2006. Unlike veteran Ron Paul, Santorum doesn’t even try to hide his “Washington disease”. He speaks in legislative mumbo jumbo. He talks about the bills he has championed. He talks about having to vote against conscience “to take one for the team.” He sounds like anything but a Washington outsider.

Yet each of these men would have you believe they oppose the very government that has employed them for decades. Are they fooling themselves or just trying to pull something over on the rest of us?

When you dig under the outsider rhetoric of Fox News Channel and the GOP contenders, you come to a disheartening conclusion. They’re all playing for the same team as those currently in power and real meaningful change is highly unlikely in the near future.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

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482 thoughts on “I Think Therefore I am Not

  1. Poolman, I hope you didn’t put that one together because the audio alone made it pretty sub-par.

    Ron Paul will never be POTUS. The question is what exactly does he hope to gain by collecting some delegates between now and Tampa? Is he paving the way for Rand?

    All I can say is he is lots of fun to watch in the debates. His calling Santorum a fake in the last one was priceless TV.

  2. R, when they refer to the MSM, they’re talking about the entirety of it. Broadcast news, cable news, newspapers, magazines- when you look at the MSM as a whole, Fox is on the outside…

  3. The real problem, I believe, is that there isn’t an inch of difference between the Dimocrats and the ReBiblicans. They define the acceptable as a little right of where we are alllllllllll……..lllll the way over to a little left of where we are. Where we are is in the toilet, so an inch either way won’t help the stink very much.

    When the Congress can pass a bill making it “legal” for the military to be used against US citizens, who can then be detained without charge in places unknown and it is a “criminal” offense to even talk about them, we are in a world of hurt. What I can’t believe is that the citizenry just sits there like dumb brutes and does nothing.

  4. “Tigre, you’d make a lousy author of Cliff Notes.”

    Okay. Thanks for starting a new thread to shorten the load time.

    MSM is more than than daytime broadcast. And it is unquestionably liberal.

    The government being railed against is the Obama administration and the former democratically controlled congress. You don’t see that?

    As for what the GOP “is not,” ever watch Morning Joe? Oh yeah. You live by it. Nonetheless, can’t seem to find anything on Obama’s performance or solutions anywhere. Just GOP bashing drawn from the primaries. Wonder why that is. . .

    I think that about covers it. I wish you had returned home to see you MSNBC disconnected too. It would make for more interesting observations.

    You’re welcome. 😉

  5. Poolman has an ally in Kelly Clarkson. She also likes Ron Paul, and when she first said so, sales of her new record quadrupled.

    Most of the networks are so biased for liberals, their reporters often actively campaign for their side. Media Matters was exposed as a conduit for Democratic and press talking points to further their agenda. The White House is also involved.

    Then, we have Journallist where reporters coordinated their efforts to discredit Sarah Palin and other Republicans. Fox is equal time.

    We live in the sticks and don’t have cable. Except for sporting events, and history, we aren’t missing much.

    Pfessor, one group did did not sit by like dumb brutes before the least election. The Tea Party changed the political dynamic, but their own adopted party steamrolled them.

    The Republican candidates are pretty bad, but at their worst, they are better than Obama and his supporters.

    His party, used the “Slow Bleed” to discredit Bush because they considered beating him more important than dead soldiers and Iraqi civilians. That is the difference between Republicans and Democrats.

    How was the food Rutherford? When I was in the hospital after my accident, I bragged about the food so often, the astonished nurses brought me extra deserts.

  6. The Obama administration suggested that military retirees should pay more for their health insurance while unionised defense workers pensions remain the same because they have a contract.

    Some theorize that this is to force military retirees into Obamacare insurance exchanges.

    I believe Obama and many old time liberals still dislike the military as they did during the Vietnam War. They mostly stay quiet about it because hating our soldiers is politically incorrect.

    That is another difference between Obama and the Republican candidates.

  7. The government being railed against is the Obama administration and the former democratically controlled congress. You don’t see that?

    First let’s dispense with this notion of the democratically controlled congress. When you combine the filibuster rule with the presence of Blue Dog democrats, the GOP was never at any great disadvantage in the Senate..

    Second, with the exception of Romney, all these boys are Washington “players”. They’ve been part of the problem.

    It’s one reason why a Romney presidency wouldn’t make me want to run for the Canadian border. Even though he has desperately WANTED to be a player (Senate run against Teddy, seven years running for POTUS) he is still basically a corporate guy. Having a businessman in the White House might be a good thing. It would at least be a change. I assure you, swap Obama with any of the other three and it’s “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”.

  8. His party, used the “Slow Bleed” to discredit Bush because they considered beating him more important than dead soldiers and Iraqi civilians. That is the difference between Republicans and Democrats.

    You lost me on that one James. Republicans murdered thousands of our young men and women on a bogus war that never needed to be fought. They’re now itching for us to go into Iran. If any party has blood on their hands it is the GOP.

    I believe Obama and many old time liberals still dislike the military as they did during the Vietnam War.

    This is belied by the facts. Obama has been Bush squared when it comes to the military. Many more drone attacks. Many more top tier terrorists taken out (most conspicuously Osama bin Laden). A surge in Afghanistan. You can say a lot of things about Obama but one thing you can’t say is that he hasn’t been a bad-ass Commander-in-Chief.

    I didn’t give the hospital food much of a chance. The chicken broth was like drinking salt water.

  9. Nonetheless, can’t seem to find anything on Obama’s performance or solutions anywhere.

    Ah Tigre I know that you pray nightly for Obama’s failure but his ability to spin is getting much better:

    healthy DOW
    strong auto industry
    decreased unemployment

    Now you can poke holes in these all you want, and even I will admit the unemployment figures have some disturbing reasons behind the scenes (i.e. folks stop looking for work) but getting reelected is a spin game and in the spin department Obama is looking up.

    If I’m not mistaken, Romney told Laura Ingraham that the economy is improving. Dumbfounded, she asked him how he was going to run on that theme. He had no good answer.

  10. He’s alraedy failed. There’s no praying. But Obama doesn’t need to spin so long as the focus remains on the GOP. And that is all your critique stands for.

    So and Numbnutz can keep telling us how great Obama is, but it’ll be a lot more fun for us us when you “Bad Ass” is actually put to task. That’ll occur outside of MSNBC by the way.

    Your belief that Obama’s a shoe-in R from your view of the primaries is deluded. Nobody in their right mind thinks Obama a success on the economy — including Obama himself.

  11. “First let’s dispense with this notion of the democratically controlled congress. When you combine the filibuster rule with the presence of Blue Dog democrats, the GOP was never at any great disadvantage in the Senate..”

    So am I wrong or do you want to argue the merits of their message R? Make a choice.

  12. Your belief that Obama’s a shoe-in

    Wow are you taking reading comprehension lessons from our beloved Tex Taylor?

    When have I ever said Obama is a shoe-in? On the contrary, I fully expect November to be a nail-biter. But, as I said before, the facts on the ground are making it easier and easier for Obama to spin positive. I think a recent poll had his job approval cracking 50%.

    And the GOP makes matters even harder for themselves when they say stupid sh*t like “Obama wants to make our children in his own image. Obama wants all kids to go to college … what a snob!”

    It’s like something from an SNL skit. Trouble is, these idiots are serious. If you want to win in November you better come with something better than “college is bad”. 😆

  13. On the prior thread, Thor asked a key question of our man in Michigan.

    Rabbit old buddy old pal, who are you pulling the trigger for today? If I were a betting man, I’d say you’re voting for Romney.

    And …

    Poolman, aren’t you Arizona? Obviously you’re voting for Ron Paul.

  14. “When have I ever said Obama is a shoe-in? ”

    Then you better get busy trying to sell him. Follow me here. What’s the value of mocking the right with nothing of substance about Obama’s pretend “accomplishments” unless he’s a shoe-in? See if you can follow my point. It ain’t much since I am only trying to respond to your unilluminating post and you challenge my Cliff Notes.

    In answer to your question, if Romney loses Michigan, it’s a problem for the GOP because it means a protracted primary process when the main event should be Obama selling his failures as success. In the end, it’s Romney. But Obama better be better than you and Numbnutz at selling his so-called “accomplishments”. You guys suck at it, especially since you seems to consist exclusively in critiquing the right Bush or the current GOP candidates primary performances. 😆

  15. In 2006-7 our mission in Iraq was in disarray. The nightly news carried stories about our dying and wounded troops and as an after thought, they mentioned the even larger numbers of Iraqis killed. The war had turned into a bloody stalemate with hints it was becoming a multifacited civil war.

    Some of my relatives and children’s classmates were over there at the time.

    General Paetrius and others suggested a new strategy, the surge. The sudden infusion of troops would overwhelm the enemy and drive al Sadr’s pro -Iranian forces out of their strongholds.

    The Democrats opposed the strategy, not because they thought it would succeed but because they feared it might succeed. They wanted to use the war with its casualty rate as an issue to use against Bush in the next election. They and their anti-war allies wanted us out of the region, and some wanted the Democrats to pull the financial plug as they did to end the Vietnam War.

    The Democrats had another idea. If they suddenly stopped war funding they would look bad. Their enemies could cite the old stereotype that Democrats were feckless managers during war time, and that they were willing to abandon our troops.

    As John Bresahan wrote for Politico on Feb 13, 2007, “Top House Democrats, working in concert with anti-war groups, have decided against using congressional power to force a quick end to US involvement in Iraq (as they did at the end of the Vietnam War), and instead will pursue a slow-bleed strategy designed to gradually limit the administration’s options.”

    They didn’t want to reduce funding. They wanted to limit the number of troops the government could send to Iraq when our soldiers were already outnumbered.

    The honorable course would have been to stop funding the war. Democrats might have let the surge begin with a plan to stop the funding if it didn’t work after a time limit. Instead, they preferred the status quo and its rate of deaths. Hence the slow bleed.

    The Democratic decision was immoral and evil.

    Obama’s using more drones and our forces killing more terrorists is a good thing, but it tells us nothing about his feelings for the military. He has held military pay hostage at least twice by my recollection.

    Obama was forced into approving the surge in Afghanistan by his generals. Remember he agonized a long time before approving it, and even then, he sent fewer troops than the generals wanted to.

    Anti- military sentiments pre -date Obama. Members of Clinton’s administration expressed their disdain for soldiers. Gore’s lawyers tried to negate military abscentee ballots because most were for Bush.

    To be fair to Obama, the treatment I and other returning troops received when we came home prejudices my view. I also find it easy to imagine that several people of a certain age on another blog would have cheerfully thrown tomatoes at my brother and cousin when they came home.

    Chicken broth like salt water? Yuck! Did they give you crackers to kill the taste?

  16. Poolman, aren’t you Arizona? Obviously you’re voting for Ron Paul.

    It’s a closed primary to registered republicans only. I did consider switching and then switching back. Plenty people do. My wife was trying to get me psyched to go with her and do that, but alas, too late.

    He has a lot of support here, but plenty are registered independents.

  17. James, yeah I had crackers. Helped a bit.

    I didn’t know you’re a Nam vet. Let me say in no uncertain terms, soldiers should NEVER be blamed for the wars they are sent into. I was too young when Nam vets came home to know much about what they went through. The fact they suffered abuse upon return is reprehensible.

    Call me naive but I believe many Democrats honestly felt the surge would not work. In a certain way, they were wrong. But ultimately, Iraq is still a clusterf*ck of massive proportions. It was almost a decade wasted.

  18. DAMN!! Poolman I am in shock. You did not do anything possible to make sure your boy won AZ? You realize you’ve blown your only chance to vote for him since he won’t be on the GOP ballot in November.

    I’ll be watching for Ron’s speech tonight:

    I stand for liberty! And thanks a lot Poolman for nuthin’!

  19. News Flash: Ron Paul loses Arizona by one vote. Apparently a fervent supporter named Poolman neglected to change party affiliation to vote for him. Details at 11!

    😆

  20. Thanks Rutherford. I appreciate your thoughts. You are a good man.

    I am a Vietnam Era veteran. I served overseas for two of my four years, but not in Vietnam. I was a medic. However, my brother, cousin and some high school friends did serve in country.

    I wrote a letter to the editor which was printed in the Omaha World Herald. The president of the Omaha metro area chapter of Vietnam Veterans of America called and asked me to join. He discovered I never got my Good Conduct Medal, and though I don’t need it, he is trying to get it for me.

    I earned a MA plus nine hours toward a PHD after my return, in an experimental accelerated degree program at the University of Iowa.
    A job counselor told a Navy friend he should hide his veteran status and say he had been on the road for four years. I checked too, and when someone told me the same thing, I dropped out at the end of the semester and promised myself that I would never put myself at the mercy of others again.

    My wife and I farmed and raised two kids. When I want to cross country ski, I walk to the edge of the back yard, put on my skis and go up to a mile in one direction and a quarter mile in the other. True freedom.

    Had more people and the press enjoyed some military time or had majored in history as I did, they would have recognized how the surge could work. I knew immediately. Jack Murtha who discussed the plan with Daily Kos didn’t say he thought the surge would fail. He said the Slow Bleed was a way to hem in the administration. A better way than the status quo was to stop funding the war. The status quo was the worst possible choice. Men like Murtha believed the Slow Bleed was a clever way of making the war lose lose for Bush. its one reason I hope he suffered a little before he died. Not very Christian of me is it?

    I agree, Iraq was a mistake at the time, but that is another issue from what I mentioned.

    You would have loved K Rations after your hospital food. We ate them in the field and ours were left over from the Korean War. They had canned ham, roast beef, vegetables, fruit, and candy. Men with different tastes traded around. I loved the canned peaches.

    One vote? You let your side down, Poolman. Ha! Paul and Romney seem to be fairly cordial to each other. Do you think if Romney wins the election he might appoint Paul to an office like Secretary of Treasury?

  21. I just got home. I had to run a program after school and I did not get off of work in time to vote. Even us union government stooges have to work a long one every now and then, as shocking as that may sound.

    Election day, primaries etc. should be on Saturday’s by the way. Either that or go old school and let the cider wagon pull into town while everyone takes the day off and gets hammered while arguing politics.

    Honestly, I would have held my nose and voted for Romney, staring at the Ron Paul option for several minutes.

    I am disgusted that Obama is fucking with military veterans while fighting for union pensions. I don’t know how anyone couldn’t be.

    Shameful.

  22. By the way, Tigre.

    Since you said “Silver is going to take a dump and it’s going to do it fast”, silver has gone up 36%!!!!!!!!!!!

    It’s time.

    Kiss the ring of the Silver Prince. My hand is stretched out. Don’t worry, it’s 90% sterling, that’s why it looks so poop like. Just tarnish. I promise.

    http://charts.kitco.com/KitcoCharts/index.jsp?Symbol=SILVER&Currency=USD&multiCurrency=true&langId=EN&period=5180400000

    In all seriousness, I’m being priced out of the market. I’m hoping it tanks. We need to shake out the paper ETF guys again. We could easily see a replay of last year. 20 to 50, 50 to 30.

    I was going to buy 40 ounces this Saturday. I’m thinking of buying a half ounce of gold instead.

    i don’t like these moon shots.

    Fuck Obama, you have no idea the “spinning” and “politicking” I have to do with a pregnant wife addicted to Chinese fodder, the breadwinner no less, to save money.

  23. Yup. It’s a good thing those Islamists are relegated to the lower house, because who knows what would happen if they controlled BOTH chambers.

    Hmmmmmm, imagine how bad it would be if the MB guy won the Presidency too, but that could NEVER happen…. Right?

    Islamist voted speaker of Egypt’s upper house

    CAIRO (AP) — Egypt’s newly elected upper house of parliament picked an Islamist as its speaker on Tuesday, consolidating control by the Muslim Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party over the two legislative chambers.

    The election of pharmacology professor Ahmed Fahmy as speaker of the Shura Council came during the chamber’s inaugural session. Saad el-Katatni, like Fahmy a member of the Freedom and Justice Party, was elected speaker of the more powerful lower house, or People’s Assembly, on Jan. 23.

    The Muslim Brotherhood is Egypt’s oldest and most powerful Islamic organization. Its Freedom and Justice Party members hold just under half of all seats in the 508-seat lower house and 106 of the Shura Council’s 180 elected seats. An additional 90 lawmakers are due to be appointed by the ruling generals who took over power when Egypt’s longtime authoritarian president Hosni Mubarak was ousted after a popular uprising a year ago.

  24. Rutherford @ 12

    It truly baffles me how intelligent people can to such a degree lose sight of what this Grand Experiment is about. “Just a little *pinch* of religion is exactly what this country needs in its government – you know, like spice, to get us back on track.”

    Pinch and on track my ass. Just pick up a history book. That’s how it works; just a little pinch here, a little pinch there and pretty soon they run the whole show. The ReBiblican party is a pretty good demonstration for those who want to see where it eventually leads.

    Those bastards who get their mail in Washington are attacking the Sacred Document from every direction – with smashing success; we don’t need another attack from religion. If there ever were a monument to the damage done to our country by our pitiful excuses for public schools, it’s their alumni fools who make our laws.

    *******

    Along those lines, I finally got a day off and yesterday I took my fifty-year-old Cessna, a flight instructor and we attacked that myriad of conflicting bullshit called the “DC SFRA” – DC Special Flight Rules Area. What a mess. Layer after layer of restricted airspace, not only in two dimensions, but three. Poke your nose one foot over the wrong line any ANY direction and you will see two fighter planes by your side, forcing you to land, where you will be handcuffed, placed face-down on the pavement and thoroughly roughed up – and then lose your pilot’s license.

    What did the fellow say…when the government fears the people you have liberty; when the people fear their government you have tyranny? Welcome to tyranny, boys. Believe me, we have a lot more to worry about than abortion.

  25. There will be no big difference in policy if Romney wins or if Obama gets a second term. Romney’s a billionaire trying to pass himself off as a mere millionaire. He has flipped and flopped on all the issues depending on his audience. The presidency is just a trophy, another feather in his cap.

    The entire banking and financial industry are supporting him in this campaign. They were supporting Obama 4 years ago. Look at Obama’s handlers and the people he surrounds himself with. Shuffle a few chairs around and you have Romney’s White House.

    http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contrib.php?cycle=2012&id=N00000286

    Insanity, people. Just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

    Stop the world, I want to get off.

  26. Gorilla, I’m sorry dude, you can yell till you’re blue in the face. It is better to err on the side of letting a fraudulent vote go through rather than restrict the ability to vote.

    The only kind of voter fraud that deserves serious investigation is the deliberate “loss” or destruction of ballots. Voter fraud and election tampering are two different things. The former goes on to such a miniscule degree that it only serves to feed the sour grapes loser of the election. The latter is far more dangerous.

    Also whether or not you want to admit it, the prosecution of this non-existent problem only serves to block the votes of the already disenfranchised.

    Find another cause dude.

  27. No, I prefer someone real, whether rich by the world’s standards or not.

    I think we have had enough lawyers and businessmen and it’s time for a physician. We desperately need to restore our health.

  28. I think we have had enough lawyers and businessmen and it’s time for a physician.

    I say we nominate Dr. Drew Pinsky. Hell, I think at some time or another we all qualify for Celebrity Rehab. 🙂

  29. I can get forms and register inanimate objects to vote everyday of the week. It’s when you actually vote that you have to prove who you are. Here we have to sign the voter roll and show picture ID at the poll, being in the correct district as registered. They require my legal residential street address, and I have the option to receive ballots in the mail to vote by mail, which I do.

    They claim to not count most votes in mail in ballots unless the outcome is questioned. On certain elections I think it’s best to go in. I have been able to run the mail in ballot through the machine and get it counted at the polls. It gives one a greater sensation of democratic participation. Plus they give you a “I voted” sticker. 😀

    I wonder if homeless Americans get to vote? I think most voting requires a residence or property or tax information. Anyone know?

  30. Romney’s main contributors (link in 36) were banks with Goldman Sachs in the lead at $521,180. Compare to Ron Paul’s top contributors…

    US Army $81,423
    US Air Force $60,739
    US Navy $58,267
    Google Inc $34,191
    Microsoft Corp $24,698
    US Dept of Defense $22,821
    IBM Corp $21,898
    Boeing Co $20,986
    Liberty PAC (Ron Paul) $20,000
    Corriente Advisors $20,000
    Northrop Grumman $17,804
    US Marine Corps $16,490
    US Government $16,128
    Intel Corp $16,091
    Lockheed Martin $15,766
    Mason Capital Management $14,000
    Verizon Communications $13,636
    US Coast Guard $12,868
    Cisco Systems $12,762
    Chevron Corp $12,701

  31. Tigre,

    You KNOW diet coke is bad for you. Even consumed as intended, it IS bad shit.

    You like to kick back at reality, don’t you?

    As for the RP donations, they put their money where their heart is.

  32. Holy shit. Tigre, check out what PM’s did today.

    As soon as you capitulated that you were wrong your prophecy came true.

    Gold is down 96 dollars an ounce!

    We might see a free fall.

    Fascinating shit.

    I wish I was fluent in Bernankese. I never understand his innuendo.

    You guys should see the silver and gold bug forums.

    Every time PM’s go up its because of healthy demand. Every time it goes down its a conspiracy and engineered by “they”.

  33. Yeeeow! What’d I do?

    Or more importantly, what would you like to happen next? It seems I can control the markets by capitulating.

    Did I mention Obama is a shoe-in and everything Rutherford said was right?

  34. There WILL be a difference if Obama wins again. Consider his budgets and his attempts to circumvent Congress and the Constitution. Appointees like Eric Holder are bad for the country.

    More importantly, Obama would be a four year lame duck without the constraints he has now. Romney’s record is less liberal than Obama’s and I don’t think he would appoint so many leftists. He would also be looking at the next election.

    Both may take us over the cliff. Obama would do it faster.

    Thanks R for the video. I liked Davy Jones too. It is a hard day for his wife and four daughters.

    I think Detroit is a wasteland. I don’t know if micro-loans would help or not, but they have done some good in undeveloped countries. Maybe they would help Detroit.

  35. “uh….my son chose to leave that x. I wasn’t xxx ing you.”

    Feeew. And here I thought the “kiss the ring” thing had taken on a whole new dimension. . . 😆

  36. Yeah….what Tigre said.

    The cool thing about Detroit is the wild animals. Deer, coyote, falcons. (I’ve seen them all).

    Trust me R…..the Detroit “Renaissance” has been going on since I was born.

    That being said, the “micro” loan idea is pretty cool. However, there is just not enough middle class people in Detroit to make it work.

    There are some new businesses that do ok among the ruins. The odd thing is that they are strangely hip because of the ruins. It’s hard to describe. It would be best to experience a Belgian ale at Slow’s Barbeque to get what I’m saying.

    R, you should visit Detroit this summer. I will fly you out. What do you say? Roll the old dice with the internet Dead Rabbit and hope I don’t serve you with fava beans?

    It could be like a blogging assignment.

  37. Rabbit you’re killing me. The Muppet Guy from MSNBC says the gM bailout was a success. No real analysis. $24 billion before chapter 11, all debts not only wiped-out, applied losses for tax reporting, and subsidizing a loser — the Volt. Detroit must be dancing! Obama saved the American auto industry. . . duh.

    Fuck these people are dumb. Well, at least Detroit is a panacea thanks to Obama.

    I want my mommy. . .

  38. Rabbit, those photos look like something out of a bad sci-fi movie. Looks downright post-apocalyptic.

    Is it a lack of pride, motivation or what that allows people to tolerate such squalor? Makes me want to punch the councilwoman in that MSNBC clip square in the face. (I had a feeling she was full of sh*t during the entire interview and that Bob Herbert was closer to the sad truth,)

  39. Tigre, I doubt the comeback of the auto industry is a complete myth. Obama got quite the warm welcome at a UAW meeting yesterday. If things weren’t looking up, they would have had no reason to cheer him on.

    I’ve also read about line workers getting pretty decent bonuses again. You might not like how we got here but I think the evidence is pretty irrefutable that the American auto industry is back.

  40. Three words best describes Paul:

    Piece Of Shit

    Ron Paul, who has consistently engaged in anti-Semitic nonsense over the course of the past few decades, has largely attempted to hide his anti-Semitism throughout his campaign. No longer. Ron Paul has issued this Arabic-language flyer outside the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn, Michigan.

    The flyer actually has two sides. The English side promotes Paul’s “Plan to Restore America” and touts his deficit cutting prowess and dislike of the Federal Reserve. The Arabic side, however – the side shown above – is far less subtle. It says that Paul will cut foreign aid, and specifically mentions only foreign aid to Israel as the target of cutting.

    Racist anti-Semites unite. Sieg Heil pisspot, Sieg heil…

  41. Michele Malkin wrote an article titled “The Autoworkers Obama Left Behind.” The bailout was scheduled politically. The UAW did well, but bondholders were short- changed. Dealers and suppliers lost or profited based on political connections. The White House schemed with labor unions to preserve their pension funds by “shafting their nonunion counterparts.”

    Those workers who worked for Dephi/GM auto parts company lost their health and life insurance benefits. Their lawsuit has exposed some of the negotiations which saved the auto companies. GM has still not repaid all of the bail out money, though we don’t hear much about that.

    Obama and his allies in the press have given us a positive picture and covered up the seamy side of political calculation. I don’t blame the administration as much as I do the press.

  42. “Tigre, I doubt the comeback of the auto industry is a complete myth. Obama got quite the warm welcome at a UAW meeting yesterday.”

    No shit. The UAW likes Obama. Bonuses.

    Is this a joke?

  43. Oh please. The MSM reports that GM is posting record profits to help re-elect Obama.

    The truth is the auto companies could have emerged from their problems faster and at no government expense had they gone through the standard bankruptcy process.

    GM to unladed nearly $40 billion in obligations to become “debt-free.”

    Ford on the other hand didn’t have a bailout and is still paying off $23 billion it borrowed to survive.

    GM will pay almost no federal corporate taxes for many years because it is allowed to report the losses it suffered prior to the bailout. That is a HUGE chunk of change R.No mention of it in MSM.

    Before you kneel before Obama’s unzipped fly, ask your self this:

    If the company is doing so well, why is the stock still way below where it would have to be for the government to sell it and break even? Real investors aren’t anxious to buy i for a reason.

    If GM shed $40 billion dollars of debt, what happened to the creditors? Stiffing the investors perhaps? Maybe that explains the stock price.

    If GM does not have to pay almost any federal corporate taxes now, or for years to come, how much money is the company relieved of paying on the taxpayers’ dime? You got it: billions.

    Do you really think that if GM were expected to run like any other company ( i.e. responsible for its debt, and responsible for paying the same corporate taxes killing other companies) would it be showing a profit? Would it be hiring? Fuck no!

    That so-called profit and UNION agrandizement is becuase it’s our damn money R.

  44. Thanks for asking G.

    She’s still in a lot of pain. The incision was quite large, but makes for an interesting “tramp-stamp.” It’ll just be a matter of time.The objectives of the surgery seem to have been met. Watching her use a walker I found amusing. I shouldn’t have let her know that. I now know to never denigrate a middle-aged woman’s vanity.

    I’m getting mighty worn down trying to take care of three (Mrs. Tigre and 2 kids) and maintain a regular work schedule which is anything but regular to many. But hey. It’ll give me an unassailable excuse to go out with the fellas after she recovers.

  45. Yeah, but I have a wager Poolman. The liberal media will go after and report all kinds of choice comments about him without fear of retribution. As we all know though, you better not say anything negative about Whitney Houston or a liberal pundit or you’ll be looking for a job.

  46. Yeah, I know. The old double standard. Liberals have mastered it. 🙄

    They say razzing middle-aged women, smoking expensive cigars, and drinking diet coke did him in. 😀

  47. Liberalism at its best. They’ve already started.

    Economics and philosophy expert Matthew Yglesias reacted with glee Thursday morning at the news that conservative journalist Andrew Breitbart had died.

    “Conventions around dead people are ridiculous,” the Slate correspondent wrote on Twitter this morning. “The world outlook is slightly improved with @AndrewBrietbart [sic] dead.”

    “If you think @AndrewBrietbart’s [sic] opponents shouldn’t be glad he’s dead, you’re not taking his life’s work seriously,” Yglesias added.

  48. I’ve heard Yglesias’ name but know little about him. So I can’t be surprised one way or another that he would be such a prick.

    Breitbart got a lot of libs very very angry but there is a time and a place. The man wasn’t Osama bin Laden, Kim Jong Il or Gadaffi. Folks ought to be able to hold off 24 hours before dancing in the streets. 😦

  49. On a related note, am I the only one a bit spooked by the prevalence of sudden heart attacks lately? Tim Russert drops dead suddenly of a heart attack. Isaac Hayes same thing. This week, just two days apart, Davy Jones and Andrew Breitbart. A couple of years ago I lost two Internet acquaintances (one of them our dearly departed HippieProfessor) to sudden heart attacks.

    WTF is going on? Believe me, I don’t discount the suffering of cancer patients but all you ever hear about is cancer while folks are dropping like flies from heart attacks.

    It’s freaking me out.

  50. I guess we really don’t want democracy in Syria…

    ♪♫♪ Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose…

  51. On a related note, am I the only one a bit spooked by the prevalence of sudden heart attacks lately?

    I don’t think it as a new event. The condition of one’s heart has always been very critical. For all we know and have studied, there is plenty we still don’t understand. So many of these perceived “simple” things are really often quite complex. Heartbeats are one.

    My dad died from a heart attack before he reached his 42nd birthday. His older brother was 39 when he died of a heart attack.

    With my dad, they claimed from the autopsy that very high cholesterol and the resulting plaque in his arteries was the culprit. At that time (1975) no one was really looking seriously at diet as a key factor. Now it’s one of the primary areas of focus regarding heart health.

    Rutherford, live each day like it could be your very last. No regrets. That’s my take. Nobody has the guaranty of any longevity.

  52. Tigre, give me a break. You want 48 hours instead of 24? Folks whose fallibility has been blatant don’t get a white washed review when they die. I’ll be the first to say folks should hold their tongue for at least a bit out of respect of the deceased’s loved ones. But eventually folks critics DO get to weigh in.

    I don’t know what coverage you’ve been watching but I’ve seen MANY references to how Whitney Houston let things get out of control. Her death has been used as an object lesson. So let’s not jump on the double standard bus so damn fast.

    P.S. This is a comment I found on Breitbart’s web site:

    The day Ted Kennedy died, Breitbart called him a “fXcker”, a “villain,” a “big ass motherfXcker,” a “duplicitous bastard”, a “special pile of human excrement”, and a “prick”. It’s taking an incredible amount of self-restraint to extend Breitbart a courtesy that he clearly felt no desire to extend to anyone else.

  53. BTW, if you want a good example of a typical liberal prick, try this comment from Shirley Sherrod, whose life was turned upside down by Breitbart’s shenanigans:

    “The news of Mr. Breitbart’s death came as a surprise to me when I was informed of it this morning. My prayers go out to Mr. Breitbart’s family as they cope through this very difficult time.”

    A classy woman who could just as easily said “no comment”. Libs are not the enemy folks.

  54. Rutherford, those sudden deaths don’t spook me.We’re all going to die, and suddenly dropping dead is better than some alternatives.

    Back in the service I “Knew” I would not live to see 26. Several other mishaps led me to believe my life span was limited to a minute or so. In 1992, my doctor told me to wind up my affairs.
    Yet, here I am, and you are here too.

    Every day is a gift we should appreciate.

    Poolman is right.

  55. Best wishes to your wife El Tigre… and to you and the rest of the family.

    It is unseemly to gloat over the death of someone before the body has cooled. Shirley Sherrod showed a lot of class. The cheering jerks could learn something from her example.

  56. I did not know the man. Most of those who condemn or praise him probably knew nothing of him as well. RIP.

    R, as for the heart attacks, I should think it would be clear, like everything else … it’s Obama’s fault. 😉

    Detroit isn’t the only city with an auto plant. Are they all dying? I think as a whole, the “Naval Jelly” belt is on the rebound, and that’s good for all Americans, no matter what your voting preference.

    Speaking of voting, WTF Rabbit? What happened to all that passion expressed by “Manny” not so long ago? 🙂

    And don’t throw Poolman back at me, I mean, who didn’t expect that?

    Later, see you guys tonight.

  57. R, give ME a break. I don’t give a crap how long anybody waits or what they say in private or on the airwaves. The “too soon” business came from you. Folks on the airwaves can say what they want. It’s the double standard I disdain. For example:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-207_162-57379873/la-radio-hosts-suspended-for-houston-comments/

    I find the left far more vicious, remorseless, and infrequently held accountable under their own standards. Just watch. It’s already started with Breitbart.

    Hell, I remember some of what was said of Reagan immediately after his death, but you better watch it if you speak ill of Ted Kennedy. . . 🙄

    You don’t need to wait 24 hours to speak up against the liberal media you consume when it comes to double standards. But based on what I saw of your commentary concerning inflammatory political rhetoric you found so dangerous following the Giffords shooting, I won’t hold my breath.

  58. “I think as a whole, the “Naval Jelly” belt is on the rebound, and that’s good for all Americans, no matter what your voting preference.”

    Not when it comes at other industries and hard-working Americans’ expense.

  59. Thor, why didn’t I think of that …. of course it’s Obama’s fault! 🙂

    It took BiW only a few hours to post his simultaneous tribute to Breitbart the fighter and slam of Breitbart’s critics. It’s fascinating that no one keeps their powder dry at times like this. The right IMMEDIATELY calls out nasty hateful libs and libs express their knee-jerk disgust of Breitbart without taking the time to let tempers calm a bit.

    Funny that a man who in the total scheme of things was pretty insignificant is still a symbol of a divided and very angry nation.

    Believe it or not, I took a lesson from my reaction to Gabby Giffords’ shooting. We all have anger simmering under the surface and we need to be careful not to let events make that anger blow. That was my mistake with Giffords.

  60. Tigre you ignore that without government help, GM and Chrysler would have found no money anywhere. They would have declared bankruptcy and disappeared.

    You think we’d be better off without an auto industry?

    I say what I’ve always said. I don’t like bailouts. I believe failing companies should fail. But I think the auto crisis occurring right along side the banking crisis was just too much to stick by free market principles.

  61. GM did go through bankruptcy.

    And had it not squandred the first 24 billion or so, I believe it and we would’ve been better off.

    In any event, who said the auto industry would’ve died. GM might have had to sell off some its divisions and restructure its finances with its emerging markets (remember, it was GM North America that was the loser) but not necessarily killed the “auto industry.”

    Isn’t Chrysler now owned by Fiat?

    I do love your “blame it in Obama” comments when you’ll give him credit (or a Nobel Prize) for anything. Poor Obama. Always picked on. Boo-fucking-hoo. . .

  62. “I believe failing companies should fail. But I think the auto crisis occurring right along side the banking crisis was just too much to stick by free market principles.”

    Incidentally, I agreed with the bailout at the time, although I was mighty conflicted. But the real point here is Obama taking credit for something that didn’t actually occur. Some say we “made money” on the deal because they don’t understand how it shook out (that’s you Numbnutz).

    GM was permitted to survive at others’ expense. Now go buy you one of those heavily-subsidized Volts and impose even more ridiculous CAFE standards to protect your investment. 🙄

    Next up, Obama’s whopping success with the solar panel industry.

  63. “Believe it or not, I took a lesson from my reaction to Gabby Giffords’ shooting.”

    Yeah, I’ve noticed that you’re a real watchdog when it comes to threatening rhetoric from the left. Or was your “lesson” to ignore it since your anger subsided for Palin’s hand in the shooting?

  64. With exceptions, I agree with Tigre that the left tends to be more vicious than the right in these matters. The Giffords shooting is one example. Ted Kennedy’s death is another. I remember the fire storm I created when I told another forum that Ted Kennedy was not the saint they thought he was.

    I wouldn’t have paid much attention, but some folks gave me a good personal education and I won’t forget.

    I also agree with El Tigre’s comments about the bail out, though I wouldn’t call you “Numbnutz.”

  65. Paul has no ability will not attain the ability to finance a fight against Obama. You can rule him out. He’s done.

    Thanks, Tigre. I like what your predictions did for the silver market. 😉 He is the one person in history who has raised the most financial support ever in one day. Ever. 😎

  66. James, for the record, Thor said something to the effect that he found “Numbnutz” more endearing than his first nickname here, Thorazine (and various other iterations of “Thor”). He is the Meathead to my Archie Bunker. . .

  67. Oh really? I thought you said it was going to drop to below 25 dollars an ounce within two weeks of rabbit buying it for around 29. Looks like it just “tumbled” to a little over 34.

    I really need to write this stuff down. 😆

  68. Tigre, this is not my specialty but I was under the impression that GM would have gone through chapter 7 under one scenario and chapter 11 under another. In one case, I don’t know which one, without anyone willing to loan them money, they would not have survived the process and would have died.

    I believe Romney’s claim is they should have declared bankruptcy first and then gotten a government bailout rather than in reverse.

    I’ll be honest. I don’t go trumpeting the auto comeback because I’ve heard just too much blowback about it. But, even if it is off the backs of taxpayers, there are folks employed by GM right now who wouldn’t be otherwise. Their vote for Obama is completely understandable.

  69. And you might want to stay tuned for where silver ultimately rests.

    Now, my prediction was based on China. So far I haven’t seen the imminent bubble burst affecting the price.

    So, I suggest you saves as much money as possible NOT giving it to the Paul campaign!

  70. “In one case, I don’t know which one, without anyone willing to loan them money, they would not have survived the process and would have died.”

    It very well may have. That’s not my point.

  71. p.s. I don’t know what Romney’s position is on GM — well other than he’s not patting Obama on the back for a non-accomplishment.

    When you eliminate all debt, pump in billions of dollars, subsidize product lines, remove tax liability for years, and by necessity commit the government to put in any additional capital required to keep from allowing the business to go belly up, you will remain in business.

  72. And you might want to stay tuned for where silver ultimately rests.

    Oh, I AM most assuredly staying tuned. Silver and gold prices are a better barometer of economic trend to me. What other currency has stood that test of time?

  73. re: “untimely but accurate” Here’s how THAT goes:

    The psychiatrist knows nothing and does nothing.
    The neurologist knows everything but does nothing.
    The surgeon knows nothing but does everything.

    The pathologist knows everything and does everything.
    .
    .
    .
    One day too late.

  74. I’m going to educate you goobers if it kills me.

    You need to read two books that are out now. I just finished “Stocks for the Long Run” by Jeremy Siegel. It will put to rest this nonsense about silver.

    The second is “American Gridlock – Why the Left and Right are Both Wrong” by Woody Brock. This guy is a polymath who is a real economist, with the education and background to back it up. He goes through the variations of negotiation theory and game theory that apply to our giveaways to the extremely mercantilist Chinese that have sent so many jobs overseas. He also has a very interesting take on the ideas of “to each according to his contribution” and “to each according to his need.” That’s not a typo – it is “to” in both cases. Not for the faint of heart or impatient. It is a hard slog at the end, but worth it. He also believes we should have a Constitutional amendment to restrain our Congress from mortgaging our kids’ futures. Hear, hear!

  75. Yeah, I’ve noticed that you’re a real watchdog when it comes to threatening rhetoric from the left.

    No, my lesson was to watch what I say and let the emotions die down a bit before weighing in.

    What threatening rhetoric from the left? 😉

  76. “Rutherford, those sudden deaths don’t spook me.We’re all going to die, and suddenly dropping dead is better than some alternatives.”-James

    Fuck that, I’m the guy sobbing “I don’t want to die”.

    Not until I raise my kids into adulthood or at least teenagers.

    I’m guessing your old enough to have seen your kids grow into young men or women.

    While its easy for me to say now, I can’t help but declare I would rather battle a tortuous disease in which I cling on for even a few months instead of just suddenly dying out of nowhere.

    Nothing spooks the rabbit more then seeing people just drop like flies.

    I’m not afraid of dying. I’m afraid of the people I would leave behind at this stage in my life.

  77. “What threatening rhetoric from the left?”

    🙄 🙄

    Says the guy who cheers the entitled OWS morons.

    Here’s a recent one you and MSNBC vociferously denounced:

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2011/03/01/wisconsin-dem-assemblyman-tells-gop-assemblywoman-you-are-f-king-dead

    This:

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/02/stunner-moveon-pro-union-protests-scream-f-you-attack-tea-partiers-shove-a-petite-older-woman-video

    Ah yes:

    http://www.verumserum.com/?p=22009#rssowlmlink

    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/89667-dnc-will-give-cantor-threat-suspects-donations-to-charity

    CNN published a column by Roland Martin on February 11 with the headline, Time for Obama to go ‘gangsta’ on GOP.

    Martin concluded the article with a plea for Obama to emulate the violent tactics of the Prohibition-era Chicago mob boss Al Capone.

    “Obama’s critics keep blasting him for Chicago-style politics. So, fine. Channel your inner Al Capone and go gangsta against your foes. Let ‘em know that if they aren’t with you, they are against you, and will pay the price.”

    The Huffington Post followed-up with their own call for gangland violence against Republicans with the publication on February 14 of a column by David Bourgeois with the title,”Obama Better Start Breaking Kneecaps.”

    “You’ve given it your best shot, you’ve tried numerous times to talk with the Republicans, to negotiate, to meet them halfway on every single matter before the American people. But they hate you for many reasons. It’s time you break kneecaps (bold in original). It’s time to destroy the Republican Party. They don’t deserve a seat at the table when all they want to do is score political points by being the Party of No.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/291178/maxine-waters-boehnor-and-cantor-are-demons-noah-glyn

    Shall I go on?

    Thank God you and your friends at MSNBC meant what you said about civility and wasn’t whipping up pretend outrage for those accustomed to playing fearful victim. 🙄

  78. There is an article in the Economist about how Argentina is blatantly cooking the books when it comes to inflation data. There are reports that independent economists have even been threatened.

    I already know Obama cheerleaders like Thor think everything is on a peachy road to recovery thanks to the One. The national debt will fade by incredible growth and more taxes. (Talk about an ugly Dancing with the Stars episode: taxes and growth doing an awkward two step to Barbara Streisand music from fill-in-the-blank liberal campaign trail)

    And, I already know Assad backers like Poolman think everything is an Illuminati lie. Of course, the Fed’s best friends are the moon bats like Poolman. (By the way poolman, you must be thrilled to hear the good news out of Syria. The Zionist agitators are being cleansed to a man. Looks like Assad is going to crush the Jew rebellion!)

    So I ask my much more grounded conservative brethren.

    Do you believe the Fed’s inflation numbers? Do you believe Obama’s unemployment numbers?

    I think we may be reaching a point where the government is lying to us Soviet style. I feel pinched at the store. Pinched when I buy food. Pinched when I buy silver. Pinched when I buy gas. Pinched when I buy gold. Pinched when I buy stocks. Not so pinched when I buy clothing, but the Chinese shit shrinks.

    Only the housing market is cheap . As it should be if…..unemployment is really at 15% and the market is saturated with foreclosures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    To me its a slow train wreck in front of my face.

    I might be financially invested in this meme, but, believe it or not, I’m not emotional about it at all. (I’m talking my PM bets…not the national debt itself)

    When and if I’m wrong, I’ll pour a shot, dedicate it to Poolman or Alex Jones and laugh about how I found myself betting my money on the crack pots who believe in Simpson cartoons predicting the future and America attacking America on 9/11.

    What else could I do but laugh?

    http://www.economist.com/node/21548229

  79. So, the Greek CDS, on a 75 percent slash, don’t have to pay.

    Try that one with your mortgage. Pay 25 percent of your bill and see if that is a default or not.

  80. Rabbit, regarding suddenly dropping dead, I hear you loud and clear. Six years ago when I was given the choice of closing up the hole in my throat or keeping a trach tube in it, I asked the doctors “which choice gives me the best chance of seeing my kid grow up?” That’s why I have a friggin’ Frankenstein monster tube sticking out of my neck as we speak.

    And make no mistake …. it’s purely selfish. I know perfectly well if I croak, the kid will recover and do just fine. I don’t want to miss the show. I want to know how the story develops. I want to see her go through all the milestones. If I missed any of that, I’d feel cheated. Well f*ck, I guess I wouldn’t feel anything … I’d be dead. 😐

  81. I’ve watched some horrible deaths and quick ones. I want to live to be a hundred, and if I do, I want to see 110 next. Our family is long lived, so I do have a chance. For example, my father was still driving a tractor, disking and field cultivating when he was 92.

    However, I have “known” i was going to die several times in several ways since my twenties. It was terrible in the service because I thought of what I would never see or do. I felt so sorry for myself, I made a list.

    After I left the service, I started checking off the list. By the time my doctor told me to wind up my affairs twenty years ago, my list was almost filled. Since then, I have made another list.

    I really don’t want to die, but when I do, I hope it is quick. I have lived a lifetime I never thought I would have, so how can I complain if I drop dead after breakfast?

  82. I agree with dead rabbit. I don’t trust our government figures or the bi coastal news media either.

    The American Spectator has an article titled “Why LIberals Cheer When Conservatives Die.” The author was writing about pundits, but as we know it also applies to a percentage of every day people.

    I think one reason for the difference is that conservatives know if they cheer a death or threaten violence, the news media will dump on them. LIberals get a free pass. People are people and I don’t think conservatives are any more averse to being vindictive than liberals. They just know they can’t get away with it as often.

    Of course, a percentage of liberals and conservative are decent people and they know such stuff is wrong.

  83. Since we are thinking about death, here are two songs I like. Forever Young Laura Branigan. Unfortunately, she is forever middle aged.

    Evanescence-My Immortal “I’ve so tired being here…
    If you had to leave
    I wish you would just leave
    Your face it haunts
    my once pleasant dreams
    These wounds won’t seem to heal
    There is just too much
    that time cannot erase
    I’ve tried so hard to tell myself
    that you’re gone
    Though you’re still with me
    I’ve been alone all along.”

    I believe Amy Lee was singing to her dead sister. The group recorded the song when she was about 22.

  84. Poolman, it seems Breitbart was murdered to prevent the release of video footage showing Obama and Ayers arm in arm in his college days.

    You are going to follow this conspiracy like the others aren’t you? Or do you avoid the ones that play poorly for Obama — like birth certificate issue?

  85. Our own county’s Sheriff Joe is on that birth certificate fraud thing. He is gearing up for his sixth term and energizing his base. The blockheads down here love him. He’s one very popular bigot in these parts.

    Of course many of us think he is just trying to divert attention from his ongoing fed investigation into his vast history of corruption.

    If Breitbart had pictures of Obama arm-in-arm with Ayers, he would have already broadcast it far and wide. Or maybe they just came out of photoshop. It wasn’t like he had any hint of subtlety or patience about him – at least not reflected in his public persona.

    I’ll research the “murder” and get back to you. 😉

  86. I think one reason for the difference is that conservatives know if they cheer a death or threaten violence, the news media will dump on them. LIberals get a free pass.

    I can’t argue the general premise (although I disagree with it) but certainly this week’s example does not support the comment.

    Upon Ted Kennedy’s death, Andrew Breitbart tweeted some of the most vile things imaginable. His fans cheered him on while other GOPhers remained silent.

    Sadly the disrespect Andrew is receiving in death in some circles is tit-for-tat. It’s also an example of how the level of discourse in this country has taken a nose dive.

  87. If any of you guys can channel Rush or Santorum, will you please ask them to shut up before they cost every goddamned Republican running for office in America the election?

    Jesus. What the hell is wrong with these people? Half of America already thinks Republicans are knuckle-dragging throwbacks straight out of the 1950s anyway; why make the point for them?

  88. Wow Tigre, that Breitbart article serves as such a great reminder of what a wackjob the old man could be.

    BTW, what “birth certificate issue”? Short form released, long form released (thanks Donald). Case closed.

    I assume you were just teasing Poolman. Being a birther is really unbecoming for you.

  89. Yeah PF, Rush has hit a new low if that is possible saying that women who use birth control are sluts. His logic goes thusly:

    We pay for their birth control via insurance.
    We pay for them to have sex.
    They are therefore prostitutes.

    Pfesser I have a funny feeling you’re staying home this November. Unless you are a supreme hypocrite there is no way you could pull the lever for any of the clowns who might oppose Obama.

  90. Oh, video. Well THAT seals it. There is NO WAY to alter video footage. And you’re right, if there is a conspiracy, Alex Jones will sniff it out and bring it to the surface. There are others looking at this as a “hit”.

    Interesting information from that prison planet article. I was not aware Breitbart was at a bar and then walked home making it just after midnight when he was seen to collapse and subsequently pronounced dead. Also, he apparently did have heart issues and was probably taking drugs for it.

    “Wait to see what happens March 1st” IS pretty prophetic. Somehow I don’t think THAT is exactly what he had planned.

    Surely he did not simply mix alcohol with heart medication. I think that’s probably a no-no.

  91. “In any event, who said the auto industry would’ve died. GM might have had to sell off some its divisions and restructure its finances with its emerging markets (remember, it was GM North America that was the loser) but not necessarily killed the “auto industry.”” – ET

    Mitt Romney did. Oh yeah, he said they would die if they DID get a bailout. Another genius f*cking businessman.

    “IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye.” – Mitt Romney, Nov. 18 2008.

    Notice the date ET? Does that explain your initial support? Bush administration. But you guys insisted on beating Obama over the head with it for three years. He owns that issue now, thanks to the messaging of your own party and morons like Rancid Phallus. That single issue could hand him the “Naval Jelly” belt and with it the election. Chalk another one up for Republican’t idiocy.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=1

  92. “Rush Limbaugh: I’ll Buy Georgetown Women ‘As Much Aspirin To Put Between Their Knees As They Want’”

    I wonder if the deal will go down in a Denny’s?

  93. “Pfesser I have a funny feeling you’re staying home this November. Unless you are a supreme hypocrite there is no way you could pull the lever for any of the clowns who might oppose Obama.”

    You are mistaken, my friend. I will be there. I may be reduced to voting for the lesser of two evils, but I will be there. I would die before I let these cowfuckers keep me at home.

    I hate to beat the drum, but R you have to read Woody Brock’s “American Gridlock.” He talks a lot about why the Right and Left are both wrong, and how to fix it. If these pant-loads that get their mail in DC would read this book – along with a lot of the zealots on both sides, we would get our red, white and blue asses back on the track to greatness. It’s still in there somewhere, but we have to club these fucking nutcases on both sides to be able to bring that greatness back out into the open sunshine again.

    Me? I’m looking for a short stick of firewood; it will be a footrace as to whether I whack a right-winger or a leftie idealogue first. They are BY GOD KILLING US.

  94. What amazes me is if I were a betting man I’d have wagered that Breitbart would outlive Limbaugh. Every time I see Rush, he reminds me of Jabba the Hutt. Then again I don’t think the dude ever has to actually go anywhere. I think he broadcasts out of a home studio.

    Now that, my friends is my fantasy .. to have a home radio studio where I get paid big bucks to just mouth off for 3 hours a day. Oh well, maybe in the next life.

  95. Oh, now Poolman is skeptical? Just when the proof is irrefutable. 😆

    R, look at Poolman’s Sherrif Joe link for the birther thing. You’re not keeping up.

    Numbnutz, my brother is a GM exec. Our discussions of the bailout and potential effect predates your and post-dates you lame timeline that you think discredits what I’ve said ( he was in on the discussions BTW). The rest of what you said makes no sense addresses the point no better either. We all know you can repeat Daily Kos talking points. Dig deeper. I had a series of questions and observations. Since you fancy yourself a writer, try your hand at them. We already know you love Obama and believe he can do no wrong. In fact, not fucking it up gets labeled an achievement from what I can tell.

  96. Rutherford, apparently she is a classy lady but also a budding lawyer!

    UPDATE: 4:15 p.m. — Sandra Fluke responded to Limbaugh’s comments in a statement on Thursday.

    “I thank the thousands of women and men, including members of Congress, Georgetown University students and faculty, and total strangers of all political stripes across the country who have offered kind words and support following recent egregious personal attacks,” she said. “We are fortunate to live in a democracy where everyone is entitled to their own opinions regarding legitimate policy differences. Unfortunately, numerous commentators have gone far beyond the acceptable bounds of civil discourse. No woman deserves to be disrespected in this manner. This language is an attack on all women, and has been used throughout history to silence our voices. The millions of American women who have and will continue to speak out in support of women’s health care and access to contraception prove that we will not be silenced.”

  97. James. sounds like you have a bucket list. Good for you that you got through all of it and had to create a new one. Even better that you apparently beat the medical odds and are still with us today.

    I have what I call a controlled respect for the medical profession. I don’t think they are gods. I know they make mistakes. I get particularly pissed off when some of them take the glass-half-empty approach and tell their patients to just give up. But I do admire them when they get things right and bring relief to their patients.

  98. And of course Rush has to dig a deeper hole (for those of you who didn’t read the whole article)

    Limbaugh concluded his sexist rant by insisting that if women want their contraception covered, they should post pornographic videos of themselves online. “So Miss Fluke and the rest of you feminazis, here’s the deal,” he said. “If we are going to pay for your contraceptives and thus pay for you to have sex, we want something. We want you to post the videos online so we can all watch.”

  99. I think Rush needed something new to elevate him back in the spotlight. It works well for his opponents, too. Rallying cries. This is news, America. Never mind what else is going on in the world, this is news. 🙄

  100. “Numbnutz, my brother is a GM exec. Our discussions of the bailout and potential effect predates your and post-dates you lame timeline that you think discredits what I’ve said ( he was in on the discussions BTW).” – ET

    Don’t get your diapers in a wad. It wasn’t rook-to-king’s-night-three. I was just making an observation.

    “We all know you can repeat Daily Kos talking points.” – ET

    ?????????

    Since you fancy yourself a writer, try your hand at them. – ET

    Oh my. Slightly personal and somewhat Tex-like. I must have struck a nerve. Feel it slipping away? If not, this might do it.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/2012_elections_electoral_college_map.html

  101. Now it’s MY truther movement? Okay, I’ll play.

    It’s grounded in real evidence, with more experts signing on all the time. The movement is growing with now over 1,600 architects and engineers, along with thousands of other professionals signing on, despite the media blackout.

    And now supported with plenty of official information obtained primarily through.. ready for it… lawsuits, citing the FOIA that allows public access to documents formerly classified that have been obtained and are being meticulously analyzed.

    http://www.ae911truth.org/

  102. Sheriff Joe has some of that there “real evidence” too. Why don’t you believe him? There’s computer experts that say the long form is manufactured, you know?

    Personally, I think the Zionists lynched Breitbart. 😆

  103. Lawsuits and everything?

    There was a lawsuit to keep Obama off the ballot in Georgia because he couldn’t qualify. Obama defaulted because h didn’t show. . .

    Come on Poolman. What gives with the selective conspiracies? You just ignore the evidence that doesn’t fit your anti-American, anti-Semite views.

    So, did Cheney intentionally shoot Whittington? Somebody here thought so. Was it you?

  104. I DO think Cheney intentionally shot Whittington. I DID say that before. I think EVERYTHING Cheney does is done intentionally. From his, “Of course the order still stands! Have you heard anything to the contrary?” regarding the stand down of the fighter jets on the morning the Pentagon was hit, to his “I don’t care what the public thinks.” or close to that in his statement to the press. Or how about his claim the VP is not part of the executive branch and isn’t subject to the same public review or record.

    I don’t give Obama a pass. Last year’s OBL kill was staged and Obama was at the helm then.

    Has nothing to do with political, national, or racial affiliation.

    The jury is still out on Breitbart. He did make a lot of enemies.

  105. Oh why couldn’t they have whacked Michael Moore, Olberdouche or the ass-clown O’Donnell instead? Why, oh why, oh why. . . ???

    It’s the video Poolman.

    And I think the picture of Obama trying to stay awake and Hillary covering her yawn proves it was OBL. . . and R’s attempt to pimp it out as proof of his success at “foreign policy” proves Obama killed him with his bare hands.

    Breitbart ruled!

  106. If Sheriff Joe had REAL evidence, he might be better received. His volunteer posse of experts “suspect” the document is a forgery, but don’t have the real document to examine. They also claim there is a “person of interest” involved in the alleged forgery.

    If the sheriff did not have such a long documented history of publicity stunts, some of us MIGHT take him more seriously.

    He IS in deep do-do based on the ongoing federal investigation into his operation here, including misuse of public funds, racial profiling, and turning a blind eye to sex crimes and trafficking.

  107. R, what do you think Poolman’s truther movement is grounded in?

    Good question Tigre. I can’t say for sure but I’ve got some candidates:

    1) Irrational Bush-hate
    2) Disbelief that a country like ours could be brought to its knees by 19 thugs.
    3) Irrational belief in America-the-evil

    I’m sure there are other possibilities.

  108. It’s the video Poolman.

    Well let’s see it, then! I understand it they will still be released in a week to ten days. They are supposedly videos from Obama’s days at Harvard showing him with Ayers.

  109. Look for the evidence Poolman. The REAL evidence.

    p.s. speculation, conjecture, hearsay from persons of interest are all “types” of evidence. . .

    Damn, Joe’s evidence sounds stronger than the Global Warmists’.

  110. Poolman’s has offered us one grain of hope against this evil government that attacks its own people, a government so powerful that it programs Americans by way of Simpson cartoons.

    Ron Paul.

    Despite this massive evil conspiracy poolman brings to light on a daily basis, can you believe he was not compelled to do the simple paper work that would have allowed him to vote for Ron Paul in the primary?

    I am so shocked.

    If you think about it, the complacency is amazing.

  111. “We pay for their birth control via insurance.”-R

    Why shouldn’t the government be responsible for ensuring we all have sun block lotion? That sun is hot! We would probably save a ton of money when it comes to skin cancer 5 years from now.

  112. 😆 Rabbit.

    Apparently you know little about Arizona politics or don’t have a problem with wasting time, whether it’s yours or mine. I despise having to wade through the mire of politics, especially here. If only it just was a matter of “simple paper work”…

    Arizona’s GOP primary is a “presidential preference election” and a “winner take all” contest. We are also being penalized this year for holding it before the first Tuesday in March, so we only get 29 delegates as opposed to our normal 58.

    Not only that, but it was called for Romney well in advance of that “election”, supposedly based on polling and the vast amount of mail-in ballots received over a week in advance.

    It is suspect and curious, but that is what we got. With the general elections, they claim not to count the mail in ballots unless the outcome is contested. Here, it seems to have had a predetermined outcome. As in other past similar cases, the GOP would never actually investigate itself. Not out here in the west. In these parts, they pretty much do their own thing.

    Now if it was a democratic primary, different rules apply. Those contests have been subject to investigation in the past.

  113. Rabbit,
    In all seriousness, should insurance companies be the deciding factor in what prescription drugs they will or will not pay for? I think this is the pertinent issue over insurance companies paying for contraceptive drugs regardless of religion or any other factor.
    If you have prescription drug coverage in your insurance policy then it should cover any and all drugs that your health provider deems necessary.

    A lot of people think Medicare part D was a free ride for seniors paid for by the government. Not so! What Medicare part D did was remove prescription drugs from part A&B and make seniors pay an additional premium for drug coverage. Medicare is not a free ride as most people think.

    For those of you not yet on Medicare, your insurance premiums still cover drugs.

    As long as sun block is OTC insurance will not pay 😉

  114. “In all seriousness, should insurance companies be the deciding factor in what prescription drugs they will or will not pay for?”

    Of course they should be, it supposed to be a free country.

    Hell…..get life insurance, insurance for severe illness and just pay for medicine as you need it, the old fashioned way.

    I went without insurance for a long time. During that period, I had to go to the ER or doctors several times, including a near death ambulance ride. I just paid for the shit. Expensive? Sometimes it was. But so is getting your trans or engine fixed.

    Is it even “insurance” or is it some middle man a good part of this country doesn’t need?

    Exactly when was it that Americans decided they needed to pay some insurance company to hold on to their money for them so that they then can go through hell getting said money back (at a loss) so that they can get their sniffles taken care of?

    The whole culture is goofy, if you ask me.

  115. You know who presided over a very civil discussion of Breitbart last night? None other than Lawrence O’Donnell. Crazy Larry maintained that Breitbart, the man was not Breitbart the political operative. It was a very balanced and decent discussion of the man and his tactics.

  116. Rabbit, unfortunately you are making the argument for single payer. Insurance companies are a middle man who add little value to the health care system.

    I think Raji is right that if a doctor sees fit to prescribe a drug, the insurance company should cover that prescription. Insurance companies should have ZERO influence over treatment options.

  117. Poolman, I have to side with Rabbit on this one. For all the drum beating you did for Paul, to not do whatever was necessary to make sure you could vote for him puzzles the crap out of me.

    As I said before, you missed your only chance to influence matters in his favor. He won’t be on the national ballot in November.

    Your answer to Rabbit implies that “the fix was in” and Paul didn’t stand a chance in AZ. So why continue to support him? Is it symbolic? Seems more like you’re beating your head against the wall.

    Come November you’re gonna have to choose between MittRickJeb and Obama. It will be very interesting to see what hits the fan in the voting booth.

  118. This is exactly my point. Insurance companies aren’t supposed to exist to add value to the health system.

    Insurance is supposed to give you piece of mind. They’re supposed to calculate the odds on people like race horses.

  119. Insurance is supposed to give you piece of mind. They’re supposed to calculate the odds on people like race horses. – Rabbit

    I am in full agreement, Rabbit, but somewhere down the line health insurance veered off and developed into what it is today unlike homeowners and auto insurance.

    The health insurance system is so rigged now that it makes it almost impossible not to be a part of the system. The uninsured pay more for health care than the insured. Also when a family of four is plunking down close to a thousand bucks per month for coverage, you want that policy to cover everything.

    Health Insurance is now Health Care Coverage.

  120. “When Your Only Tool Is Selective Moral Outrage…”

    Rutherford, I am shaking my head on this one. Someone should inform Rush he has a defender. Just sign up for those videos next to the pharmacy counter.

  121. Regarding 175, I guess it’s okay to use deception then if I’m to “do whatever is necessary” to vote for Ron Paul?

    Well, I’ve never been big on politics and still I am not convinced voting makes a hill of beans in America, especially here in McCaintown.

    For the first time in my life I have spent money to support a candidate, wear “the gear”, and even put a political sign in my front yard. I still refuse to put a bumper sticker on my vehicle, despite my wife’s continual requests. If it comes down to it, THAT would be a serious move for me.

    I guess I have a long way to go to be a sellout for a political candidate. What have you guys done for your man, or have you even picked the one yet?

  122. Raji, I was quite disappointed in BiW. He is a very smart man and to see him defend RushBo was such a let down. I haven’t read his response to my comment yet.

    I am, as usual, in the minority on his blog. If you’re shaking your head as much as I was, tell him so over there, at the risk of getting skewered by his readers (among them, the departed Tex Taylor).

  123. R – I took a little swipe at KoTex Piss Ant over at Biw’s blog, but never went back to see his rapier-like response (I’m sure).

    These people are in my opinion just as dangerous as the far-leftists, probably moreso, because they OPENLY advocate violence. When I see what the party of Lincoln and Goldwater has devolved into, it makes me want to vomit. Complete unthinking, knee-jerk reactionary DANGEROUS people who – just like those leftists they claim to oppose – think they have the right to force you to cleave to their particular beliefs.

    I’m looking for a Russian AK. The Chinese copies, like all their intellectual theft copies – are pure shit. I have never been one of those survivalist types, but I swear things are going to go south. The Tea Party and the OWS people are just the beginning.

    Read that book, R. Read it now. We are heading for a world of shit and this guy is no reactionary nutcase; he knows whereof he speaks.

    Remember: get the Russian model. LOL

  124. I got accused of “following” Tex when I last commented at BiW’s site, though my comments weren’t initially addressed to him. I enjoy the back and forth with BiW and his “conservative” friends, but the more I read him, the less I find myself agreeing with his opinions. A few of the posts I read there were so totally skewed that I didn’t want to even attempt a comment, civil or otherwise. He lost some intellectual credibility with me over the NDAA discussion a while back.

    I’m not one to intentionally crap in somebody’s living room, even if the floor is tile. It’s the old adage, “if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all” in application.

    Tex, it seems, is all-the-more hateful and is now a lewd Don Quixote-like character. The concept of compassion and forgiveness only appears to apply to canines. Whether I am there or not, my “name” comes up often enough in his diatribes, making some lame inane comparison with Rutherford or everything wrong with America.

    I guess I should be somewhat flattered that I have made such an impression. 😀

  125. Nice to see some of the big advertisers pulling out of Rush’s show (double entendre sort of intended). I looked over at BiW’s post and was simply aghast at the amount of misinformed and seemingly purposefully mangled information that was spewing out of there.

  126. Well I read the latest post, and determined it better NOT to jump in the fray. I see fault on both sides. That this has become a national issue in today’s messed up world really strikes me as insane. The divide just keeps deepening, the gap widening.

    Some days I feel like a parent or babysitter just trying to keep the kids from hurting each other. 😐

  127. That is how it should be, Gypsy. Hit him in the wallet, since the conscience is nonfunctional or ineffectual. Free speech is one thing, but when broadcast over the airwaves it becomes a whole ‘nother issue altogether. When it takes over the national spotlight and becomes news fodder, what does that say about us as a society? Sponsors are usually extremely sensitive to image. Yet this is typical Rush. Why is anyone shocked?

    I don’t think this will hurt him. The publicity alone assures him of continued ratings. Controversy like this even helps galvanize much of his fan base. The way Romney and Santorum addressed it publicly was pretty lame, too. They can’t afford to distance any conservobots at this juncture in their quest for the ring.

  128. Regarding 175, I guess it’s okay to use deception then if I’m to “do whatever is necessary” to vote for Ron Paul?

    I guess I don’t understand what deception you’re referring to. Putting your time and money behind a candidate is obviously of worth. But in the end, only the votes count.

    Let’s look at Virginia on Tuesday. Only Romney and Paul are on the ballot. If VA is proportional, let’s see if Paul can get some delegates.

  129. GypsyKat good to see you back. I was afraid you’d abandoned us. I didn’t want to fight BiW on the “facts” since I didn’t have the research at hand to contradict him. I find it hard to believe women can obtain birth control without insurance for only $9.00 per month which is what I believe is BiW’s claim. Be that as it may, even if one concedes that item, his defense of Limbaugh boggles the mind.

    Yet this is typical Rush. Why is anyone shocked?

    I don’t think this will hurt him. — Poolman

    Poolman is 100% right. There is a contingent in this country who actively dislike and demean women and Rush gives them a sugar rush (pardon the pun). They eat up every word Limbaugh spews.

  130. I guess I don’t understand what deception you’re referring to.

    Pretending to be a republican and going through the process of re-registering and then switching back to independent after the “presidential preference selection” took place. I’m sure it happens all the time and is not too difficult to accomplish – it can even be done on line. They keep a record of every election I have participated in.

    To me, that is somewhat deceptive since it was closed to registered republicans only. My wife and I discussed doing that while there was time to accomplish it, but decided against it. The main reason we did not was we decided it would be a wasted effort.

    It was already a given that Romney would win here, unless he did something really stupid in the meanwhile. And I mean REALLY stupid, cos some stupid is a requirement in the GOP here. Romney has a lot of support here and spent plenty on advertising. We are the state with the second largest Mormon population, plus, to top it off, he got John McCain’s endorsement.

    More recently he received Jan Brewer’s endorsement.

    This batch of republicans here loves their McCain and Brewer.

  131. More recently he received Jan Brewer’s endorsement.

    First thanks for the clarification on the “deception” I get it now.

    As for Jan Brewer, I watched Meet the Press that morning and Brewer came on right after Rick Santorum praised her and hoped for her endorsement. Then she came on and endorsed Romney. All I could say was “ouch.”

  132. “Tex, it seems, is all-the-more hateful and is now a lewd Don Quixote-like character. The concept of compassion and forgiveness only appears to apply to canines. Whether I am there or not, my “name” comes up often enough ”

    Trifle thou not with losers; people may not be able to tell the difference.

  133. “Poolman is 100% right. There is a contingent in this country who actively dislike and demean women and Rush gives them a sugar rush (pardon the pun). They eat up every word Limbaugh spews.”

    No question those people exist, but I think the larger contingent is just very frustrated with the way the country is going and not smart enough to see when they are being used by people like Limbaugh. I spent 1600 hours building an airplane in my basement/garage and most of the time I had talk radio on in the background. This was in the early ‘nineties and Rush made a lot of sense back then, but he eventually got old as he kept beating on the same old drums.

    A lot of guys are frustrated/confused by the militant feminist movement, which is IMHO composed to a large extent of man-haters with no other agenda. I don’t like some of them either, but anybody who has watched the men destroy this country in the past few years should think about giving the women a shot at running things. They couldn’t do any worse.

  134. I guess I had a Bucket List before it had a name.

    The far right is just as dangerous as the far left. Leftists have also advocated or practiced violence, so they are the same in that respect too.

    I looked it up. Target charges $9.00 a month for generic birth control according to RADIOVICEONL Another blogger wrote that Wal Mart charges less for generics than for name brands, but more than other stores do. She thought they were ripping off their customers even with relatively low prices.

    Planned Parenthood charges less than Ms Lunt allegedly paid, but several women wrote they didn’t like the caviler attitude in their offices.

    Some women use birth control for medical reasons other than sex.

    Rush blundered. Not only was he crass and insulting, but he unwittingly helped the Democrats change the subject from First Amendment guarantees of religions rights to contraception.

    The blogger wrote “Ms. Fluke, you’re being played by Pelosi. ..She used you and pulled you into this mess. i really do hope you come to realize you’re being used by the political left. ” She reminds me of Cindy Sheehan and Joe the Plumber.

  135. Raji, do you think RushBo’s mea culpa of sorts was prompted by threatened legal action from Ms. Fluke?

    No, Rutherford, it was all about money. Sponsors were screaming.

  136. “A lot of guys are frustrated/confused by the militant feminist movement, which is IMHO composed to a large extent of man-haters with no other agenda”

    In the 90’s, maybe. I don’t think any guys are afraid anymore. We kind of sit back and laugh. The feminist movement eats its own.

    At work, the women can’t get along. I’ve never shared a work space with women when they aren’t their own worst enemies. (Admittedly, I’ve only shared one work space with women…education. However, I hear the same stuff from many people)

    Feminazi propaganda taught them they were supposed to be competitive. And that’s cool. They are. They just can’t figure out the right time and place for it: Drawing lines in the sand with one another over meaningless details. Even many very talented women end up very miserable at work.

    The funny thing is that they all sneak over to where the dudes hang out and admit they hate working with fellow chicks.

    Feminazi propaganda taught that the career was everything. I guess they forgot the biological urge women have to take care of their babies. So, off to work they go, crying every morning. Their baby left in the hands of strangers. The prices of everything simply raising to this new two income family model.

    I’m not saying the Mad Men era was kosher. I’m saying women still can’t figure out how to pull it off.

    They often seem incapable of forming any kind of meaningful bonds at work, too.

    The dudes at my job show up in the gym at 5:30 in the morning and play basketball to such a competitive point that we have taken major cheap shots. On more then one occasion, we’re breaking up possible fista-cuffs. By lunch were all cracking up about it. Women can’t do this kind of stuff. When they master this art of being a meat head, they will find much more happiness at work.

  137. “First thanks for the clarification on the “deception” I get it now.”

    Taking part in the Republican party primary because you want a GOP politician to ultimately run for president were you then plan on voting for said politician, is NOT being deceptive.

    For this election, you ARE a Republican. You have a stake in the primary and, with success, would be supporting the Republican ticket.

  138. DR –

    I have to say, Dude, you have some balls to go THERE!

    When I was in radiology residency, I slayed the pussy, and thought to myself, “This is GREAT! The future is bright! Most of the x-ray techs are young females and don’t stay in the field very long, quitting to have families, etc. That means I will be constantly surrounded by young, desirable females.”

    Boy did that turn out to be wrong! The HELL in any x-ray dept is directly proportional to the percentage of women. An all-female department is in turmoil 100% of the time. And the thing they hate the worst is working for another woman. If I am ever in a department with an all-female staff, working for a female supervisor, I stay in my office and NEVER come out! LOL.

  139. My experience resembles Dead Rabbit’s and the PFessor’s. Our daughter complains about it too.

    Maybe women are sports cars and men are Fords.

  140. “Women can’t do this kind of stuff. When they master this art of being a meat head, they will find much more happiness at work.”

    😆 Rabbit. So true, so true!!! Watch out for that “bless your heart” stuff as that’s the prelude to a dagger in your back.

  141. Well, not to beat a dead horse but I have had similar experience with women in the workplace. They tend to dislike each other. I may be paranoid but they also seem to dislike “sensitive” men. I got the distinct impression from my corporate days that they like working with neanderthals much more than liberal male feminists.

    I also found that many women felt the only way to power was to emulate the worst qualities of their male counterparts. Of course these are all generalizations but when a bunch of us come to the same conclusion it make me think there is something there.

  142. James, if you’re getting your $9.00 birth control figures from a blogger then I’m still skeptical.

    Does anyone on the board have any actual experience purchasing the pill and what costs are really involved? (Don’t worry, if you volunteer the info we won’t call you a slut. 🙂 )

    Or at least I won’t. 😉

  143. For this election, you ARE a Republican

    “Sticks and stones…

    Really, I will never be a republican OR a democrat again. I may have to vote for people that consider themselves in one camp or the other, but I don’t accept that label and won’t wear it.

    We should all be on the same team and this governing business should NOT be a competition. We have made it about winners and losers. This just places a “chip” on our shoulder and keeps us fighting among ourselves.

    A major waste of money and time. Entertainment never cost us so much.

  144. Hi Rutherford, no, didn’t abandon. Had some heavy business travel and then you were on hiatus (glad you’re feeling better!) and I hate coming in on threads with 400 comments.

    I’ll take this on:

    ” I find it hard to believe women can obtain birth control without insurance for only $9.00 per month which is what I believe is BiW’s claim. ”

    “Does anyone on the board have any actual experience purchasing the pill and what costs are really involved?”

    If there is a woman out there who can take that $9 pill and not get atrocious hormonal side effects, she’s one lucky woman.

    It’s not about the pill, it’s about contraceptives. The whole lot of them. For many many women, the pill works great, but finding the right pill (there are many varietals) takes a lot of trial and error. That’s doctor’s visits, that’s copays, that’s taking time off work. And being on a pill that doesn’t work for you has all kinds of side effects. Hormonal rages/depressions, weight gain, etc. The pill is a great equalizer for women, but it’s not a slam dunk. And the varieties of pills range in cost from a $15 copay per month to up to $70 per month if a woman needs it for reasons other than pure pregnancy prevention. There are a host of non-life-threatening but life debilitating conditions that the pill alone can help address. Extreme menstrual cycles (which can contribute to or cause anemia); intense pain (I remember my teenage years missing days of school per month because I could not get out bed due to the pain) and that’s before you even get to the ovarian cysts or endomytriosis conditions. All these–plus pregnancy prevention–can be addressed by the pill.

    And that’s if you can take the pill. My friends begged me to stop taking it in my twenties. I was such a raging bitch when I started taking it again and no different varietal I tried was any different. So here I am a young twenty/thirty-something who wants to live a normal life without pain–and yes, wants to have a healthy sex life–without being a colossal bitch. Or fat. Or pregnant.

    Thank god for the IUD. But that up front cost (if the insurance companies in my state hadn’t been mandated to cover it) starts at $1K. I actually went down that path two months before the law passed in my state (luckily the law was retroactive for 90 days so I got reimbursed). But then, I’m fairly wealthy so there’s no real barrier to me. The $1K for the IUD is far more cost effective over the 5 or 10 years, but that’s assuming you can cough up the grand to start with.

    There are other methods that I am less familiar with since I started with the IUD 11 years ago. Those too have different health benefits and upfront costs that shouldn’t be prohibitive barriers to a woman (or the men that want to have sex with them).

    Sex is not separate from a woman’s health and the freak out over sex is disgusting. Religiously affiliated businesses pay taxes that go towards all kinds of things that they are morally opposed to, but it’s only when sex is on the table does the right-wing-male freak out happen.

    I don’t give a rat’s ass if anyone calls me a slut. I was a responsible single woman who didn’t want to get pregnant and my health insurance should reflect my sexual and reproductive health. Now I’m a responsible married woman who doesn’t want to get pregnant and my health insurance should reflect my health there as well.

  145. R- this article appears to be fairly accurate. Since I’m way past the point of needing such medicines, I figured I could weigh in 😉

    http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/04/14/contraception-cost-birth-control-pills-craigslist/

    The problem with birth control is one size doesn’t fit all. The dangers of actually taking the “pill” for some women leaves them no option except to use IUD’s or the shot or rely on condoms. Actually one brand of “pill” may be okay while another is not. This is why the drug is a prescription rather than OTC.

    I certainly wouldn’t take my chances on buying it through craigslist or Ebay.

  146. @ the females on the thread.
    Would you find it acceptable to have to disclose birth control use and technically be under contract with your insurance provider?
    What I’m getting at is your insurance will cover birth control but if you get pregnant without their permission you’re financially on your own.
    Is this acceptable to anyone??

  147. Gypsy actually pointed out the real expense of contraception, the cost of the doctor’s visit. A doctor may give you a refill prescription for 6 months but that adds two visits a year in addition to the cost of the pill. If Insurance companies are not paying for oral contraception then more than likely they are not paying for those doctor visits.

  148. Alfie, That situation would never be an issue because most insurance companies require a “pregnancy rider” to cover pregnancy. If a woman doesn’t take out the extra coverage, they don’t pay and so yes, you would be financially on your own.

  149. @ Raji I’ve never experienced that. I have experienced how employee and spouse category during open enrollment has a serious jump in cost secondary to the actuarial realities that a female offers.

  150. Rutherford, like you, I don’t know if the cheap figures are true, They were just what Google showed me. My wife and I have no actual experience purchasing birth control pills.

    We waited over eleven years and planned the children for July so my wife could return to teaching school in the fall. Both were born two years apart with their birthdays two days apart. I was primary care- giver during winter between harvest and planting.

    I looked at a Wal Mart web site a few minutes ago. They have a long list of prescription medications selling for $4.00 per 30 days. I don’t know if any birth control pills are in the list or not. Someone with more knowledge or interest than I can peruse the list.

    I found two contraceptives listed in another search area of the site. Wal Mart sells foam on line for $6.94, and two others for $9.96 and $12.00 with free shipping for orders over $45.00.

    I understand your point that contraceptives are not all good, Gypseykat. Eight years into our marriage, the Dalcon Shield killed our first born and nearly took my wife. We got a settlement, but you never get over something like that.

  151. As one married to the same gal – legally now for near 35 years – we have had various experiences with different birth control methods over the years.

    When we first started going out, she was on the pill. Back then, AIDS was unheard of. The various sexually transmitted diseases were serious, but I never concerned myself with them. I never thought twice about birth control since she always took care of it.

    There were issues and symptoms with each prescription it seemed, so different prescriptions were tried, attempting to alleviate the adverse effects. Neither of us had insurance then, she paid for the prescriptions and doctor visits.

    After several years “the pill” was causing undesirable symptoms and wasn’t regulating her menstrual cycle like it should have, so her doctor told her she needed to get off the pill and try other forms of birth control. This made sex less convenient for me, and depending on what method we were using at the time, often less satisfying and sometimes even painful.

    We had health insurance by then, provided through my employer. I was not too knowledgeable of what it covered and don’t recall ever using it, though I carried the ID card in my wallet. I assumed if there was a need, we would be covered. The few times she needed to go see the doctor, it covered all the expenses. I think a certain number of annual doctor visits were free with the plan.

    While using an IUD, she got pregnant with my first daughter. That is when we found out pregnancy was NOT a part of the insurance plan we held. It seems silly now that we would NOT have that coverage. Why wouldn’t ALL young married couples have it? It should have been brought up. I think they said they would cover an abortion or “at risk” pregnancies or even if complications arose from a normal pregnancy. THAT was a shock, and ended up costing us a good chunk of change.

    Soon after my eldest was born, my wife was diagnosed with displaysia (sp?), or what they determined was the early stages of cervical cancer. That WAS covered by the insurance and she underwent cryosurgery. She was told that there was little-to-no chance of her getting pregnant again, though she did not inform me of that. We determined to use condoms as protection, as they seemed the least intrusive.

    My second daughter was conceived while using that method of birth control. The pregnancy was difficult and doctors did not think she would go to term. She did go almost to term and delivered. It was a difficult delivery with fetal stress. Having been with her during labor for both, I have to say neither was fun. Both labors she was administered pitosin(sp?) to speed the contractions. The fetal monitors and constant interruptions by nurses and doctors made the labor extra intense. What joy!

    Over the years, she had developed ovarian cysts and her monthly cycles were sporadic and very painful, often with very heavy flows. Eventually she was put back on the pill to regulate much of that. 12 years ago she had a hysterectomy, something she says was the most painful thing she has ever gone through.

    I just remember her in bed for weeks on pain meds. Thank God I’m a man! I don’t think I could have withstood all that hell. 😐 I think in many ways, women are tougher than men.

    Anyway, a long post later, I know things are much more women-friendly in the baby delivery department. My eldest daughter had very different experiences when she was due. In that way, things are much better. No longer is pregnancy treated like a disease and birth left to unnatural means, focusing on the doctor’s comfort rather than the mother’s.

    Do I think health insurance should cover contraception? Yes. I really am against insurance as an industry and in the way it is administered, but it should cover all things relating to health. If someone wants to opt out of certain coverage, then they should be able to and receive a discount.

    For me, I’ll continue to pay as I need health care. I don’t think my federal government should force me to buy anything. Since government anymore is a tool of industry, expect more “requirements” like these.

  152. I’m going to get slammed for this but whats wrong with condoms? Pop it off and offer up a protein shake.

    Seriously, the odds of getting pregnant while using condoms and being responsible are tiny.

    We really need the other groups or the government to make sure we don’t make a baby when we fuck?

  153. Poolman, I agree with much of what you wrote, especially the part about the hard lives women sometimes live.

    I have still been learning more about the northern indigenous Europeans. Finnish related people tend to have a bone structure closest to Cro- magnon people than other Europeans. About a third in some areas are still pagans and many more incorporate old beliefs with Christianity.

    Here are the words to an old Finnish song which also discusses the status of women years ago. :

    “My beautiful sisters
    Young neighborhood maidens
    Are we so easily fooled?
    Before my mother would let me
    My father gave me permission to go out
    And we believed the men, waited for escorts
    I had a mind to get a man
    To go looking for a proposal…
    I was clever at pleasing the men
    Anticipating their whims
    Did my best all day…
    Stupid girls,
    Don’t do like I did
    Go to a strange place
    to work for an old crone (mother in law)
    Don’t be stupid like me.”

  154. Condoms aren’t the best….but damn…..getting laid is getting laid. Back when I was single, I can never recall being pissed off that the night ended with me having to use a condom, if you know what I mean.

    “So this current pregnancy was planned then rabbit?”

    Well, not in the traditional sense. We had all kinds of fertility issues (thanks to the pill, according to my wife). So, we didn’t even think it was possible to have a kid without medical help.

    But, this time around, she got pregnant el Natural.

    The first one was a 5 year process in which they ended up telling us we would need to spend 25 grand to have a chance. She kept having miscarriages. I was in the process of securing the loan when she got pregnant and it stuck.

    I had to give her monthly shots in the stomach back then.

    This time all it took was 4 minutes of inadequate sex on my part. 🙂

  155. 4 minutes of inadequate sex

    I’m not sure if I know what that means or if I WANT to know, but apparently it WAS adequate in one very real sense. 😆

  156. Condoms do not provide the prevention of the pill. Besides, a woman who relies on condoms gives up her autonomy. Why force your partner to wear a condom when you can take matters into your own hands?

  157. I had a mortgage and a credit card with BofA. I sold the house and cancelled the credit card. BofA is officially out of my life and I have no regrets.

  158. Friends of ours decided to stop after four children and the wife had her tubes tied. One night, they visited us very angry. The husband said doctors “fixed” his wife, and yet she was pregnant again. They were furious and muttered about lawsuits. I don’t think they ever did sue, though.

    They raised their unplanned daughter, she grew up went to college, got a job teaching where my wife taught and is raising a family.

    When I was in school, a brother and sister told us all how they found their parents’ condoms. They poked tiny holes in them. In less than a year, the kids had a baby brother who also grew up and farmed. He was banned from Belize because of his drug trading.

    A teacher’s daughter was pregnant and weighed her options. She claimed a boy friend was the father because she judged him to be a potentially better provider than her other boy friend. They are still happily married, but the oldest son looks like a clone of the real father now that he is a teenager. He looks the Scandinavian he is. The neighbors have noticed, but the mother hasn’t.

    A young man showed up at my cousins’ door and said “I think I’m your son.” Again, he looked like a clone of my cousin, so now we have a new cousin and wife at family gatherings.

    A pro- life group ran ads with a young woman who began with “I was an abortion.” Yet, she survived.

    Nothing except abstenance is 100% fool proof. As in Jurasic Park, nature will find a way.

  159. dead rabbit’s comments about the whites banned from the FYPD training session illustrate the same forces which got us to discuss birth control on this site.

    The left changed the discussion from religious freedom to birth control because it is a more successful issue for them. The emotionality can win them votes. Their allies in the press fan the flames and let the discussion thrive when the real issue withers.

    Rush LImbaugh stupidly overplayed his hand and gave the liberals an even better chance to change the subject and maybe injure or quiet a large irritant.

    The Gifford shootings, Bill Clinton’s bimbo attacks, OWS/Tea Parties, and Brietbart’s death have demonstrated the left’s hyprocracy and willingness to do anything dispicable to hurt the other side, and they have done it again with this issue. Bill Mahre called Sarah Palin a dumb T, and later a C, but where was the outrage? A leading Democrat who has condemned Limbaugh said little or nothing about Bill.

    Carbinite who canceled Rush has supposedly kept their contacts with Ed Shulz who also said something vile about Michelle Bachman, I believe. They are supporters of moveon.org.

    Had the banned people from the training session been black or HIspanic, we would have heard about it on the evening news. Obama has a blacks for Obama group of supporters, Let Romney try a whites or Mormons for Romney and see what happens.

    As Rutherford and others noted, some leftists spoke with class, but as leftists often do, I am painting the entire group the same color as the majority. They and their allies in the press are masters of group think.

    I don’t think conservatives are better people than leftists. Most conservatives are smart enough to understand the rules and play accordingly.

  160. “I understand your point that contraceptives are not all good, Gypseykat. Eight years into our marriage, the Dalcon Shield killed our first born and nearly took my wife. We got a settlement, but you never get over something like that.”

    God – the Dalkon Shield. That damned thing. It looked like a trilobite and had a strong predilection to eroder through the uterus and into the body cavity.

    It was also very, very hard to see on x-ray. I had a colleague who missed one; the court asked me to see if I could find it; my partner and I looked for ten minutes and never sat the damned thing. When the attorney pointed it out I nearly shat my pants. There it was. This was before we used CT to search for such stuff.

    Glad they got that monstrosity off the market.

  161. “Nothing except abstenance is 100% fool proof” – James

    There’s always a vasectomy 😉

    Can any of you gentlemen tell me if that birth control procedure is covered by insurance?

  162. Rabbit, condoms are great for preventing STD’s and should be used. But they break frequently and have about a 15% failure rate in preventing pregnancy. And as to Rutherford’s point, that puts control in the hands of the guy, not the woman. Plus, it offers none of the additional health benefits women get with other forms of birth control.

    I cannot believe the level of misinformation from the men “debating” this issue. And stop focusing on the pill. It is the most widely used, but a lot of women would opt for one of the other forms (IUD, shots, implants, etc.) if they could get past the upfront costs.

    “The left changed the discussion from religious freedom to birth control because it is a more successful issue for them.”

    Uh, no, the conversation started about contraception and health care, the Catholics made it about religious freedom (even though they haven’t said peep about their lack of religious freedom in the 28 states where this coverage is already mandated; nor do they squawk about religious freedom of these institutions’ tax dollars going towards other issues that supposedly go deeply against their grains). Then the band wagon started because it’s so easy to demonize women when it comes to sex. Just call us sluts and tell us to keep our legs together.

  163. “And as to Rutherford’s point, that puts control in the hands of the guy, not the woman.”

    I don’t get the point. Isn’t the reverse true as well?

  164. Tigre, I’m tempted to lecture but instead let me just ask you. What about a woman controlling her reproductive choices evades you? She can’t do that with a condom (unless its the female condom and I don’t know how well that works).

  165. “What about a woman controlling her reproductive choices evades you?”

    Huh?

    Go ahead. Lecture me. I’d like to hear. Does a man not have an interest in preventing unwanted pregnancy for some reason?

  166. James, I have to say GypsyKat is exactly right on this one. No one flipped the script. This was ALWAYS a conflict between women getting financial assistance for their health care vs the Catholic church’s religious objections.

    Even though I feel the “Obama compromise” was really no compromise at all, it was symbolically an olive branch that the Catholic church and the GOP should have happily taken and then STFU. Instead everyone decided to double down.

    The truth is, this whole debate has been an opportunity for the right to take us back to days of old when there were good girls and bad girls. Boys could f*ck anything breathing but girls … oh no … if they engaged in sex, they were whores and sluts. That’s 1950’s bullsh*t. But hey, the GOP is dead set on returning us to the 1950’s. Just look at the voter registration regulations going into effect. We’re so f*cked up that we are actually reverting to preventing folks (mostly black folks) from voting Democrat.

  167. “This was ALWAYS a conflict between women getting financial assistance for their health care vs the Catholic church’s religious objections.”

    Religious exemption is the issue, then you go on to write that drivel he = bad, she= good crapola?

    This is a discussion you’re incapable of having.

  168. “Even though I feel the “Obama compromise” was really no compromise at all, it was symbolically an olive branch that the Catholic church and the GOP should have happily taken and then STFU.”

    And it appears you typed that without pausing. . . 😆

    Back to simulated outrage.

  169. Tigre I appreciate the fact that you live in a world where all men are responsible and unicorns sh*t skittles. However in the real world, a good number of men walk away. A woman can’t walk away. She cannot escape the consequences of pregnancy.

    When it comes to decent men, you are absolutely right. They have a huge interest in preventing an unwanted pregnancy. And they’d probably encourage their partner to use birth control because they know a condom has too great a failure rate.

    Also, this is not about man=bad, woman=good. Some women are promiscuous. It doesn’t change the fact that the consequences of sex are far different for women than they are for men.

  170. The discussion was not about contraception, GypseyKat. It was about a provision in Obamacare which would force religious institutions to pay for insurance that provided contraceptive services against the churches’ beliefs and principles. Mostly Catholics claimed that being forced to buy such services violated their religious beliefs and thus the Second Amendment. Other examples of mandated coverage, including some Romney may have approved, were irrelevant. This was dispute was about a blanket mandate applying to the entire country–a big difference.

    No one was being denied those services, because they could chose to buy insurance elsewhere or spend their own money if they could afford it. They could also chose to work or study in non- religious institutions.

    If business wants to attract quality workers, it will provide what it must to retain good employees. It is not the government’s duty to dictate such policies to businesses.

    I repeat this was not about contraceptives. It was about government intrusion into the rights of religious organizations and by extension our rights. Insurance companies were told to provide the contraceptives for free, I think. If so we will all pay the bill somewhere else.

    The Democrats and press manipulated this into a women’s health issue for emotional impact. They couldn’t win on the real premise, ” did the President act extraconsitutionally to mandate practices which were contrary to religious belief”?

    Sandra Flute, a thirty year old student and activist replaced Barry Lind who was origionally chosen. He was removed and Issa’s committee denied her a chance to testify before the first House hearing because the discussion was not about contraceptives as such but about the issue I mentioned. Her testimony was also mostly hearsay. Nancy Pelosi manipulated it into a woman’s issue when Flute testified before her Senate group. Flute like Rush was her tool.

    Rush helped turn this into an allegedly anti- woman issue. The left knows it can use fake outrage as an emotional weapon against Republicans during the next election the way they would have used the Slow Bleed had the Iraqi surge failed. The Democrats out maneuvered Republicans because they are focused and have a plan.

    While we are on the subject of contraceptives and price. I don’t believe any woman who actually needs them for birth control or as a medical palitave cannot find an affordable source or can’t cut back somewhere to pay the bill.

    If women have the right to insurance policies which pay all of the freight, what about my brother-in law who nearly died in an accident last year or a friend who recently discovered he has pancreatic cancer? Shouldn’t they also have a moral right to nearly free care? And who pays the bills? We all do.

    Misogyny is still rampant, and it is a bad thing, but it is also irrevelant to the issue. It is a Democratic red herring.

    I repeat, “The left changed the discussion from religious freedom to birth control because it is a more successful issue for them” still stands. You did not support your point well enough to prove me wrong.

  171. R, that does not address what I said. We also live in a world where some women try to get pregnant knowing it is not the man’s choice. Your lame insult is more proof why you can’t reasonably engage the subject. You’re too busy trying to score MSNBC points Mr. Donahue.

  172. Reread the Finnish folk song I quoted in 286 Rutherford. It is about choices and consequences. A certain percentage of men and women are prediators and it is our duty to teach our children how to spot them.

    It is also our duty to protect ourselves from people who would exploit us. That means we ought not place ourselves in compromising positions with permanent consequences. As you wrote, women are especially vulnerable.

    When I was dating, It was my role to go as far as I could go, and my date’s duty to stop me.

    “Cruel baby baby baby why you want to treat me this way
    you know I’m still your lover boy I still feel the same way
    that’s when she told me a story ’bout free milk and a cow
    and she said no hugging no kissing until I get a wedding vow
    my honey my baby don’t put your love upon no shelf
    she said don’t hand me no lines and keep your hands to yourself”

    Georgia Satellites

    We’re seeing lots simulated outrage and Poolman is right about the simulated sex.

  173. El Tigre, I never thought about “blacks not being allowed to vote Democrat.” We’ll have to work that in somehow. Ha!

  174. “Why force your partner to wear a condom when you can take matters into your own hands?” – R

    Interesting choice of words. 😉

    FWIW, our coverage covered my snips, but paid only a token amount toward pills. Guess who got awarded the “purple balls”.

    AOL just dropped Rush.

  175. Occasionally they offer free spay and neuter clinics out here in the west. Maybe we should consider the same for humans? With some of the animals, it takes away the “urge”. Others are banging on without consequence.

    Sex in humans takes on a more intricate role. It is an integral part of our consciences and affects most decisions we make.

    When I lived in Texas, my business partner was on his second wife and had fathered seven kids. One of my pool clients was a retiring physician and offered him a free vasectomy. My partner took him up on it. Your “purple balls” statement Thor reminded me of that. 😆

  176. The whole Fluke issue was meant to derail the collective train of thought, I’m certain. I’m certain those that thought it up are patting themselves on the back. The point well missed however, is that Ms Fluke was not talking about HER needs, but the needs of others. So if she is to be classified in a sexually demeaning manner, it should have been as pimp or madam.

  177. Ms Fluke was not talking about HER needs, but the needs of others.

    One of those “others” lost an ovary if I’m not mistaken because she couldn’t get coverage for birth control that would have helped save the ovary.

  178. When I was dating, It was my role to go as far as I could go, and my date’s duty to stop me.

    Holy cow! Who are you, Foster Friess? “Back in my day women put an aspirin between their legs … a lot cheaper than a birth control pill.”

    So back in your day, your role was to be rapist and her role was to fight you off? You have gotta be kidding me!

  179. We also live in a world where some women try to get pregnant knowing it is not the man’s choice.

    What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? We’re talking about women who DON’T want to get pregnant.

  180. This lady comes up with some left-leaning funny shit.

    There is a Tower in Pisa that leans left. Fat Grannies doesn’t lean. It is firmly entrenched on the left bank.

  181. “So back in your day, your role was to be rapist and her role was to fight you off? You have gotta be kidding me!”

    No, he’s not kidding. Your job was to get in her pants without marrying her and hers was to make you marry her first.

    Don’t you remember the good old days? Men were men, women were scarce and sheep were afraid.

  182. “What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? We’re talking about women who DON’T want to get pregnant”

    WTF?

    Talk about wasted effort with you . . .

    We are talking about who “controls” reproductive decisions, remember?

    Fuck it. I think you’ve reinforced the point made by James. You can’t justify someone going to a Jesuit college and expecting to force it to pay for contraception and birth control, so you scream about injustices that only exist in the minds of a liberal.

  183. sheep were afraid.

    Classic … I’ll be chuckling on that one the rest of the day. 😆

    I guess I am being a bit unfair to James. The typical scenario is for guys to get as much as they can for free. It speaks to how poorly we raise our boys vs our girls.

  184. Frankly, Fluke should have have earned the ire of the liberal media and feminists for portraying women as helpless wards of the state who have no choice but to submit to men.

  185. You can’t justify someone going to a Jesuit college and expecting to force it to pay for contraception and birth control

    You need to read Tex’s rant about Georgetown University. Their curriculum and programs do not reflect a school that would have a problem with birth control.

    This from Tex: At Georgetown law, she is the former president of Law Students for Reproductive Justice, an editor for the Journal of Gender and the Law, and vice president of the Women’s Legal Alliance.

    Doesn’t sound to me like an institution that would be hung up on contraceptives so what gives?

  186. “Doesn’t sound to me like an institution that would be hung up on contraceptives so what gives?”

    Um. . .how about they don’t want to pay for them or they would? Still looking for you victim and oppressor I see.

    Oh, “the faces of the women affected by this lack of contraception coverage” who have “suffered financially, emotionally, medically.” What is the picture of Georgetown you have conjured in your head from this absolute bullshit R? Fluke recounts the rare incidences of women needing birth control for medical reasons, as if that’s the norm, then twists into a justification for why religious institutions should subsidize contraception for her sexual activities?

    R, if you believe what you’re saying (and I doubt it), you get played so easily by the left spin machine I’m embarrassed for you. The issue is precisely what James says it is, and his point still obtains.

  187. There is a Tower in Pisa that leans left. Fat Grannies doesn’t lean. It is firmly entrenched on the left bank.

    LOL. Maybe. But if you go on the other side of that tower or head upstream, what was extreme left is now extreme right.

    Just a matter of perspective. 😉

  188. Thanks El Tigre.

    Poolman left me an opening I will take. I have stood beside the leaning Tower of Pizza, and right or left, it is still leaning toward its doom if engineers don’t permanently stop the tilt.

    I haven’t seen the other blog since about late January, and I have no plans to check on them any time soon. Thus, it may have changed. Its wrong to criticize people who can’t defend themselves, and I won’t.

    In the old days, they were nasty and became to me surigates for an old battle I fought in the Air Force. I warned them in some detail and made no secret of how I planned their change. As surely as men who tried to hurt or kill me were eliminated, some of the posters would be gone. And they were, thanks to folks like Pfessor and several others. We made them so mad they didn’t want to associate with us.

    They tried to vote me off the site and they incidently included Pfessor and someone else. They had no power to do it of course, and the administrator noted that in moderated sites, they, not I would have been the trolls who risked suspension. It was fun to watch them sputter.

    Here is my opening. Poolman never personally attacked me as far as I can remember, though we disagreed politically. That puts him along with Rutherford near the top of my list of good non-conservative guys I have met on the internet. Take a bow, Poolman.

    I think men and women look at dates and reproduction differently because our genes have different goals. Before I left for college my mother warned me to beware of certain types of girls. I found one, and she was so aggressive it was almost like a role reversal. I stood at the gate of teenaged heaven, but I listened to my mother that time, and stayed away from the promised land until I met my future wife.

    And the sheep were nervous. Ha Ha!!

  189. Thanks James. I know we have argued often in the past, but I don’t think it ever came down to personal insults.

    This is rich…

    A news release from the Paul campaign boasts of having the support of Ty Romney, Travis Romney, Chad Romney, Jared Romney and Troy Romney. Three of the Romneys — who live in Idaho — will speak on Paul’s behalf during the state’s caucuses on Tuesday.

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/05/ron-paul-gets-endorsement-from-five-members-of-romneys-family/

  190. James, I had the good fortune of an educator for a father who had the summers off. Every summer of my childhood we either went to Europe or cross-country here in the States. I don’t remember much of Europe because I was very young during those trips but I do remember Pisa. It was amazing to see that crooked tower.

    From what I understand, engineers have stabilized the tower such that it has finally stopped moving. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_tower_of_pisa)

    P.S. It’s funny what stands out for a child. The one thing I remember most vividly from the Roman Coliseum is the smell of urine. From what I recall, vagrants would use the place as a urinal.

  191. “Frankly, Fluke should have have earned the ire of the liberal media and feminists for portraying women as helpless wards of the state who have no choice but to submit to men.” – Tigre

    Tigre, about the only thing that women should get their ire up about is that Fluke will probably achieve a White House Internship as a result of this episode and they didn’t.

    Smart like a fox, now everyone knows her name!

  192. So did Monica. 😆

    She wasn’t all that smart though. It was handed to er by Limbaugh and Obama who seized as another opportunity to avoid taking honestly about the agenda and much, much larger issues that he would prefer not having to discuss.

  193. That is rich, Poolman. it would be fun to be a guest at the next family reunion.

    I know engineers were working on the Tower of Pizza. It would be a shame to see it crash. I’m glad you remember something of Italy. I love the place and its people. Do you remember seeing any beggers? They were numerous in Naples and north to Rome.

    Monica Lewinski is just a poor girl who still loves Bill, at least that’s what she said a few years ago.

    Yes, Fluke is smart like a fox. She has been around longer than advertised and if she becomes an intern, it won’t be for long.She has plans.

    If anyone is interested in seeing Cro- magnon people performing on stage look at Liet International 2010 Jousnen Jarved on YouTube. These northern indigenous people have the skeletal structure most similar to Cro- Magnon people of any folks living today. Someone described them as magic people and white American Indians. The group started singing in part to help save their language. Only five thousand still speak it.

  194. “Fluke recounts the rare incidences of women needing birth control for medical reasons, as if that’s the norm, then twists into a justification for why religious institutions should subsidize contraception for her sexual activities?”

    Rare instances? Oh god. You really don’t know anything about contraception do you? Health isn’t just about illnesses, it’s also about wellness. Ovarian cysts can–and do–cause hysterectomies, many forms of birth control dramatically reduce the onset of cysts. Anemia as a result of common heavy menstrual cycles is not uncommon, particularly in younger women; pill and one of the IUDs takes care of that. Mittelschmerz during ovulation is dramatically reduced when a woman doesn’t ovulate. Endometriosis symptoms can be most easily treated by the pill or contraceptive shots (instead of expensive surgery). Reduction or elimination of monthly cramping is heaven-sent all on its own. And that’s just the list without googling. And we get all that, a bag of chips, and prevention of unwanted pregnancy while enjoying a healthy adult sex life (monogamously or not).

    I personally don’t know a single woman who voluntarily gives up her health, wellness, and well being even when she isn’t active sexually.

    Contraception may be a religious issue for a bunch of men who don’t have sex (or at least aren’t supposed to), but it’s a health/wellness issue for women. And if a business wants to operate in the marketplace (schools, hospitals, insurance companies) they need to comply with the same regulations as every other business.

  195. I repeat, “The left changed the discussion from religious freedom to birth control because it is a more successful issue for them” still stands. You did not support your point well enough to prove me wrong.

    I just wanted to repeat it again.

    The victim class need to hear it over and over again.

    As for G-cat’s stats on condemns. They 98% of the time with correct use. Come on.

  196. All right lets cut the shit!!!! Who on the the thread thinks birth control thats BIRTH CONTROL should be one of the few meds covered 100%?!?

  197. “Rare” should probably be prefaced with “relatively”.

    This is more than a religious issue for a bunch of men who don’t have sex. It is an issue for millions of Catholics who have shared these beliefs for two thousand years. It isn’t just an issue for Catholics. Muslims are a sixth of the world’s population, and most in the Middle East eschew abortion and contraception. Muslims are migrating to the US, so it is their issue too.

    That many members don’t strictly follow the rules doesn’t mean our government has the right to countermand religious principles.

    Our founding fathers had first-hand experience of religious persecution. Maybe that is why religious freedom ranks so high on the Bill of Rights.

    I agree about businesses, but church operations are not secular businesses. They follow different rules. If one needs a certain type of insurance coverage which goes against religious doctrine, he/she can go to school or find work elsewhere. I know people who don’t like their jobs but who stay there because of the insurance.

    Maybe women could negotiate non-birth control medical uses for contraceptives and stay within church doctrine. I don’t know. At least it would be a compromise.

    I do know the Constitution is the law of the land and it will take more than a law to change it.

    I hope you keep posting regularly.

  198. Alfie, your question needs some clarification. One of the FEW meds? By “meds”, are you referring to prescription only and/or over the counter products? Covered 100% by insurance companies, employers, OR government mandate?

    I still stand hold the same opinion:

    1.) Government should NOT mandate insurance or regulate what it should or should not cover.

    2.) Employers should be able to choose to offer insurance or not, their CHOICE. Whether they cover all expenses or share the cost of the premium with the employee should strictly be the employer’s decision.

    3.) Insurance companies should be able to package coverage anyway they want, but must make it known in PLAIN LANGUAGE what is or is not covered.

    Now, to be honest, I really like HR676 single-payer. But with a corrupt government, there is NO WAY that would work. Medicare suffers from the corruption of its handlers. Health is more than just medical procedures and pharmaceuticals. It really is a lifestyle, one that goes against the established institutions in this society. As a skeptic or “conspiracy theorist”, I have noted that it IS the master plan to make us all UNhealthy and dumb – successful so far, I might add.

  199. Thanks dead rabbit.

    I think 100% of the people who need birth control should be able to buy it. Insurance companies as private businesses should be able to decide what they cover and what they charge.

    Good night.

  200. Join the military. That’s the only public option available besides medicare, if that survives the next few years.

  201. It is an issue for millions of Catholics who have shared these beliefs for two thousand years.

    Sorry …. that’s propaganda bullsh*t. If I’m not mistaken the Catholic church took no formal position on birth control until the 1960’s in a papal declaration (whatever they’re called) by the Pope at the time.

  202. The Catholic Church and their declarations have changed over those two thousand years. It is an earthly institution based on the divine order and characters of creation. Like other religions, it calls itself the true church and considers non Catholics pagans. Marrying outside the faith excommunicates you.

    (That means they pull your membership card.)

    They have a hierarchy, similar to all governing bodies, with rules and provisions designed to control the message and the administration of duties, flowing from the top down, military-style.

    The ornate symbolism and elaborate ritual is still a big part, though different parishes are allowed freedom to “loosen a tie and undo a few buttons” so to speak, to “modernize” the mass. Jazz it up, make it more hip.

    The people themselves were beholden to the church, which held the power of governing and proclaiming the moral standard. It also held ownership of the lands and acquired great wealth, most of which was transferred to main headquarters in Rome. The Vatican holds plenty of priceless artifacts and great knowledge of the ages and massive wealth and ginormous power. It has kept its people fairly subdued and obedient.

    Pregnancy and birth have always been a big deal in Catholic tradition. Babies are a blessing from God, given of His divine providence. Life from life.

    The rhythm method was practiced and the women had it down to a science. Women of the communities congregated and saw to each other’s needs, whether it was methods to improve the chances for getting pregnant, or help in child raising.

    Men had “more important” matters to attend.

    The most godly girls dedicated themselves to remaining virgins and became nuns. They practiced celibacy, preferring to remain pure in devotion to God.

    Now fast-forward to the 21st century where communities are fractured and lives are constantly bombarded with sexual and secular diversions and plenty HAS changed.

    Catholics, like Jews and Muslims and plenty of others, don’t always stand out from the crowd. They are in every career and income bracket in this nation. Some are true believers. To others, it’s just their brand. But few follow the strict rule of the faith, which, like the law itself, was only given so we could see how messed up we are.

    Obey Rome or obey God? The Bible states you should submit to the authority of your leaders and obey the laws of the land. So it boils back down to the individual and his or her faith on everything.

    Does your conscience say it’s okay? Hello? Jesus, are you there?

  203. Rutherford et al –

    Popes issue encyclicals. Since they are technically pontiffs, I call it pontificating.

    re: birth control. I guess I have been in the medical business too long. It is truly puzzling to me why birth control medication is any different from any other medication for the regulation of a normal human function, and in particular I think it is a distraction to say that it is often used for other non-reproductive purposes. Preventing pregnancy is enough, even if it had no other uses. I have to tell you; I find the Right’s fascination with women’s baby-generating apparatus to be frankly bordering on the unhealthy. A lib female friend says it’s because they don’t get much of it and by god they mean to bring those twats under control! Maybe truer than she knows…

    re: poolman and James’ mutual respect. KUDOS. Woody Brock has a great little story about WF Buckley, Jr and a liberal friend who debated over Scotches to the end of the day, but then had dinner together and called each other “friend.” I’m telling you, Boys, standing back and shouting at (past) each other is a complete waste of time. KoTexPissAnt the perfect example of such ineffectuality, bless his heart.

    Tower of Pisa. Which way it leans depends on which side you stand, doesn’t it? Maybe there’s a lesson in there somewhere. BTW, the eng-a-neers moved a long time ago to stop the lean with a type of “mud jacking” – very difficult in that type of soil. My wife was there a few years ago and it had cables (how inelegant!) on one side and you couldn’t go inside any more.

  204. Thanks for the good words Pfessor and Poolman for your comments about the Catholic Church. One of my hobbies is paleontology, and after I learned more about the Scandinavian part of my heritage the research became a major part of my spare computer time.

    For one thing, the northern indigenous people were so isolated there was little mixing with southerners. The more I learn, the more I understand that watching some of those people is akin to looking at a wooley mammoth revived through genetic engineering. Some of the northerners have basically the same skeletal structure as ice age Cro- magnons did. And their long surviving culture and religion may be similar to the cave painters’. Your are bored, but I am fascinated.

    Most, like us, are not especially religious, but some remain pagans with the old religion. Others combine Christianity with shamanism. Thanks to the new hybridism YouTube had an interview with a psychotherapist who is also a shaman. Her clients think it is an advantage. Another site showed a pagan festival. Earlier on, the Russians tried such drastic measures as blowing up the sacred mountain to stop the worship service.

    A Sami group, “The Girls of Angeli” (Angelin tytot “Giddat”) recorded a joik, a sometimes religious song designed to communicate with the spirits and ancestors. Such music was once banned, and people were burned to death for playing the sacred drums.

    Some of the comments included

    :”How could this be considered a sin? Stupid missionaries who thought their culture was greater than others’.”

    “You are so right. This was no sin. The sin was in trying to destroy it. Missionaries are famous for doing that sort of thing. It is cultural genocide at best and just pure bigotry. What they did to first nation peoples in America and Canada was criminal and monstrous to say the least and certainly no reflection of Christ or his message. ”

    “At least Saami believed in the forces of nature and formed stories which helped them understand the world around them. Christianity is a religion from the Middle East and has very little to do with traditions and nature of the North. It is an import product and brought by foreign empires with force and violence.”

    Religion is more than a set of beliefs. It is a culture which provides a framework for living. Our founding fathers recognized this and they knew the dangers of unrestrained religious aggression similar to what I cited. People who worship with snakes,worship the sun, and people who don’t believe in contraception, or cars are guaranteed the right to practice their beliefs thanks to the Second Amendment.

  205. Our guide told us how they planned to save the Tower of Pizza when we were there. I’m glad it worked.

    I shouldn’t do this for fear that Rutherford will get a big head, but Tex wrote Rutherford was one of the few liberals he respected, and he thought/hoped the respect was mutual.

    He was right about another thing. He believed non- liberals and liberals, at least on line, cannot have a more than superficial relationship with each other. I knew he was wrong, and I tried from 2003 on to prove it to myself. Many liberals and conservatives can be friends, but for the rest, I was wrong and Tex was right. The majority of liberals and conservatives I have met are like “Oklahoma’s” farmers and cattlemen. They believe with a religious fervor and cannot mix.

    Tex probably bores you as much as the Samis do, but I wonder what made him who he is.

    As you know, we carry many of our own pagan traditions, and one is Santa Claus. Though he has Christian elements, he and his flying reindeer with his red and white suit may be the result of a ritualistic drug high.

  206. “As for G-cat’s stats on condemns. They 98% of the time with correct use. Come on.”

    The overall failure rate is ~15%. In my single days, condoms were just for back up pregnancy prevention and primary STD prevention. Never the primary pregnancy prevention. And none of the ongoing health benefits of the other forms of contraception.

  207. Sorry about that Gypsykat.

    I told you folks about the condom failure when two classmates poked holes in their parents’ supply and gave them a surprise baby brother. Surely that has happened before.

    Boredom and a restless mind can be a bad combination.

  208. I shouldn’t do this for fear that Rutherford will get a big head, but Tex wrote Rutherford was one of the few liberals he respected, and he thought/hoped the respect was mutual.

    That opinion changes with the wind. Right now, if you read my reviews on BiW’s blog or Alfie’s, Tex considers me a vile propagandist and a rube among other things. Tex is an emotional roller coaster ride. I take his extremes with a grain of salt. I wait for him to come back to Earth and then I can appreciate him again.

    I would submit most relationships online regardless of political persuasion tend to be superficial. Still I must admit that I think I “know” some of the folks on this blog despite having never met them. And I do know that I mourned the loss of HippieProfessor more than I could ever have anticipated.

    Cyberspace is an odd thing.

  209. Hate to get all sentimental but we’re talking boredom, a restless mind and loneliness. Tex and his wife live apart by necessity (not by animosity) and Tex, I suspect, spends a good amount of time alone. I’m not saying anything here Tex hasn’t said. When he lost his dog a year or two ago he was devastated, partly because of the way the dog died but more so because it was his only constant companion.

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but I got married because I wanted a friend whom I could see every day and share my life with. I don’t think I could handle an arrangement where I only saw my wife once a week or worse, once a month.

    I’ve urged him more than once to consolidate households and to this day I don’t fully understand why he can’t even though he has explained it. And of course, ultimately it’s none of my damn business. Despite all the heated rhetoric, which will continue, I wish him well.

  210. Poolman –

    You would be proud of me. A ran out at lunch and pulled the lever for our man Paul. It probably won’t make any difference, but it earns me the right to bitch.

  211. Rutherford, maybe Tex will come to his senses. You know him better than I.

    Yes, cyberspace is an odd thing.

    My early experiences spoiled me. In 2003 I was bored as I waited for a lung infection to heal and rain to stop so I could plant our crops. Some events after my return to the US made me hate liberals though I agreed with many of their views. As self- therapy I decided to mix with and get to know liberals on the first message board of my life.

    We became so friendly we visited each other when distance permitted, and we exchanged phone calls. We sent each other gifts.
    That never happened again on any other site.

  212. As I had mentioned earlier, my youngest daughter was conceived while we were using condoms for birth control.

    When we discovered we were pregnant, she told me the doctors said she was not likely to go to term. Of course, we beat all odds. I couldn’t imagine how my life would be without my youngest daughter being part of it. Kids add so much depth and color and flavor and volume and meaning to life. Really it makes it worth all the heartache and toil – even the occasional shit smearing. 😀

    I am so happy I still see mine regularly. I know so many families where the kids are estranged and past hurts combined with pride keep space between them. Life is short and people are stubborn often leading to their own detriment. Nourish those relationships. Love covers a multitude of sins.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~

    Rutherford, these cyber relationships are pretty diverse, much like our “real” relationships. It takes more effort to discern sincerity. Looking at the person you are communicating while reading their body language and hearing verbal inflections “tells” us plenty that we are not able to pick up on in a purely written form. This format operates more like pen pals interacting with faster responses.

    We have different personalities for our various relationships and interaction with others. We also act differently behind our steering wheels than we do without that buffer. When we can “speak” from an anonymous “face”, we often say and do things that, under “normal” circumstances we would not. It can be freeing. Even assholes get to have their say. 😀

  213. Good for you, PFesser!

    I hope more Virginians have that courage. I actually have done more to promote him than I ever have any other candidate. I really have a difficult time getting on board any political campaign. It seems all we ever do is campaign. I prefer construction where the result of my efforts are more tangible.

  214. Hey PF … since Santorum and Gingrich were incompetent boobs and missed getting on your ballot, is that what drove you to Paul? Had the other two been on the ballot would you have voted differently? Of course I know full well you’d sooner hang by your balls then vote for Santorum. 🙂

  215. James, the closest I’ve come to actually “knowing” folks on this board are the few folks with whom I’ve connected on Facebook.

    Poolman, the net is the perfect breeding ground for trolls. When you can take any anonymous name you like and hide behind it, just about anything can spill from your lips. I know for a fact there are at least a couple of folks on this board who would be mortified if their spouses, friends or relatives saw some of the stuff they write.

    Maybe it’s therapeutic?

  216. True that, Rutherford. I gave up all my “secret” personalities long ago. My wife often reads my comments, sometimes shaking her head or muttering “asshole” when reading some of the comments. It leads to interesting discussion.

    I have determined to be as real as I can in all circumstances. It takes courage and I often offend, but it beats trying to remember what game I am in at what time.

    Like my wife often says, “fuck ’em if they can’t handle the truth”.

    She’s not always the most diplomatic… 🙂

  217. “I know for a fact there are at least a couple of folks on this board who would be mortified if their spouses, friends or relatives saw some of the stuff they write.”

    Really? Who? I doubt it.

    And if you’re talking ’bout me, you’re dead wrong.

  218. The left, caught once again, manufacturing “facts” and exposed accordingly. So, not only is she a slut AND a media whore, but she’s an idiot. Have fun defunding this…

    Although Georgetown Law student Sandra Fluke testified to the House Democratic Steering and Policy Committee last month that contraception can cost a law student $3,000 over three years and that some of her fellow students could not afford it, a Target store only 3 miles from the law school currently sells a month’s supply of birth control pills for only $9 to people who do not have insurance plans covering contraceptives.

    That would make the total cost for birth control pills for a student who decided to use them for all three years of law school just $324.

    Fluke was the sole witness who appeared on Feb. 23 before an all-Democratic panel chaired by House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.).

  219. Helloooo??? That’s generic G. She has a right to have someone, including those with religious objections, pay for name brand. What would people think of a Georgetown law student taking generic.

    R, why did you challenge the cost of birth control pills on BiC’s blog? A quick Google search show that what he said was accurate.

  220. Tigre, actually I was not referring to you. I find it hard to believe Tex would proudly show some of his worst sh*t to his wife. And Dead Rabbit has expressed concern about some of his acquaintances ever seeing some of the stuff he’s written. Those were the two I had in mind.

    Poolman, but for the VERY rare comment, and coming on the board to inform you guys of my hospitalization, my wife NEVER reads the comments thread. She gets my articles by RSS and reads them when she gets a chance. But since we talk politics a lot, my articles never surprise her. While she appreciates that this blog would be a very different place without you guys, she has trouble swallowing some of the comments so she keeps her blood pressure in check and stays away for the most part.

    Gorilla, GypsyKat has already addressed the $9.00 birth control. First, one pill does not fit all. Side effects have to weighed etc. Second, you’ve got to pay for the doctor’s visit to get the scrip and any follow up visits to monitor progress.

  221. An Obituary printed in the London Times…..Absolutely Brilliant!!!

    Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:
    – Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
    – Why the early bird gets the worm;
    – Life isn’t always fair;
    – and maybe it was my fault.

    Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don’t spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).

    His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

    Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.

    It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

    Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

    Common Sense took a beating when you couldn’t defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.

    Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

    Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son, Reason.

    He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;
    I Know My Rights
    I Want It Now
    Someone Else Is To Blame
    I’m A Victim

  222. Rutherford –

    re: Paul. I have followed him for a long time. He stands for everything I believe in except for his stand on abortion. You can’t have it all, I guess. He has predicted exactly the path our unconstitutional policies would lead us and has been right every time. The problem is that nobody lives long enough to remember how the country used to be run and this slow drift to a socialist totalitarian state seems to them the norm. And the thing that drives me crazy is that the Left and the Right are doing exactly the same thing, but they just stand there shouting that the OTHER one is the villain. Pot, meet kettle; kettle, meet pot. In terms of taking our liberties, it’s a goddamned footrace between them. The zealots – best typified by those here (right) and Fat Grannies (left) are completely blind to the fact that there’s not an ounce of difference between them.

    I read incessantly and have slowly come to realize that Paul is the only guy that gets it. I am very much alarmed by how our Sate keeps coming AT us, in complete violation of everything we stand for as a country AND, I might add, in violation of the Great Document itself. Hardly anybody knows any history nowadays and they just do not see this slide into totalitarianism, fueled by incessant wars and the “necessity” to “protect us” from the evil foreigners. This formula is time-tested and it works if you want to take the people’s liberties.

    Unfortunately, it’s like Brandeis said: The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal. The thing that frightens me the most is that the current “leaders” have become so bold that they don’t even pretend to defend the Constitution, let alone be governed by it.

    That is, except Ron Paul.

  223. I imagine if 90% of insurance CEO’s and legislators were women, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. Rush might have a hard time getting his dick cement paid for, though.

    BTW, if you look at the Pisa tower straight on, it doesn’t appear to be leaning either way. Surprised none of you “reasonable” centrists mentioned that. 😉

  224. Paulbots define “zeal”. The man is a hypocrit. He loads pork into bills he knows will pass, and then votes ‘no’ symbolically, knowing he got what he wanted. He’s a fraud man…

  225. “Second, you’ve got to pay for the doctor’s visit to get the scrip and any follow up visits to monitor progress.”

    But that would be covered as I understand it.

  226. “if you look at the Pisa tower straight on, it doesn’t appear to be leaning either way.”

    And if you look at a marching Nazi head on it looks like he’s waving at you.

  227. “Looking at the person you are communicating while reading their body language and hearing verbal inflections “tells” us plenty that we are not able to pick up on in a purely written form.” – P

    I agree, Poolman. We learn so much more with a smile or a tear. Without human contact, this medium is reduced to bathroom graffiti … some wit, some wisdom but mostly just hand job solicitations. (purely mental, rhetorical ones of course.) 😉

  228. Screaming liberal I tell you:

    “It is a permissible reading of the [free exercise clause]…to say that if prohibiting the exercise of religion is not the object of the [law] but merely the incidental effect of a generally applicable and otherwise valid provision, the First Amendment has not been offended….To make an individual’s obligation to obey such a law contingent upon the law’s coincidence with his religious beliefs, except where the State’s interest is ‘compelling’ – permitting him, by virtue of his beliefs, ‘to become a law unto himself,’ contradicts both constitutional tradition and common sense.’ To adopt a true ‘compelling interest’ requirement for laws that affect religious practice would lead towards anarchy.”

    The full list of services required to be covered by an individual’s/employer’s insurance policy without additional copay (i.e., not free but without additional copay and not taxpayer dollars): http://www.healthcare.gov/news/factsheets/2010/07/preventive-services-list.html

  229. Rutherford, I don’t do facebook, though our daughter thinks I should.

    Unfortunately, with the exception of my emphasis on politics here and a few hobby subjects which bore everyone, I am basically the same in real life.

    I like the Common Sense obituary.

    Ms. Fluke has already been shown as a manufactured distraction. So is the outrage against Rush. Moreover she is not the engenue she was advertised to be. Her latest missive is her advocating for mandated transgender surgery. I think such insurance coverage should be available as long as the government doesn’t order insurance companies to pay for the operations etc.

    We know about Bill Mahre’s, Ed Shultz’s and others gross insults. Now, Mike Malloy has said the tornado victims’ god keeps smashing them into little grease spots.

    Thanks to him, my wife and I contacted the sponsors who bailed on Rush and told them we would not buy their products because we were making a point about the double standard.

    Meanwhile the real issue is ignored now. Happy Democrats.

  230. And if you look at a marching Nazi head on it looks like he’s waving at you.

    And if the Nazi is marching toward the leaning tower, it looks like he is holding it up all by himself.

    And when Romney looks at a corporation in just the “right” light, it looks like a person. 🙂

  231. In my opinion, contraception and pro -life attitudes are major expressions of at least one religion. Since coverage is available throughout the country via non -Catholic sources, it is unnecessary to force Catholic organizations to provide services which are anathema to their religious beliefs. Thus, a law forcing Catholics to pay for such services does violate the First Amendment.

    An individual is under no obligation to follow the Catholic interpretation of the moral issue and is therefore free to find financing elsewhere. Compelling Catholics to violate their moral principles is unnecessary and against the Constitution.

    On the other hand, the government has forced some denominations to force families to permit medical treatments like blood transfusions when a life is at stake. Another subversion of freedom of religion is banning polygamy. I don’t know if these two concepts are explicitely spelled out by religious leaders or if they are cultural practices. Honor killings may also be cultural and not religious practices.

  232. “Meanwhile the real issue is ignored now. Happy Democrats”.

    The real issue was already settled. Catholic organizations don’t have to pay for the pill, insurance companies can’t deny coverage due to the religious views of an employer (if they wish to be part of the exchange). No one is forcing anyone to do anything. If the Catholic Church doesn’t like the rules, they can just go back to being a church. Of course, where’s the fun in that.

    The Blunt amendment was voted down, but not before Romney threw his full weight behind the Church of Scientology denying their employees coverage for anti-depressants.

  233. “If the Catholic Church doesn’t like the rules, they can just go back to being a church. Of course, where’s the fun in that.”

    Goddammit, thor. That is a real pearl. May I steal it and spread it around liberally?

  234. The fabricated outrage is beyond the pale and you should be ashamed of the false-victimization.

    I’m not sure I’m outraged so much as amused that a bunch of middle aged men so long for a return to the 1950’s that they think birth control is really debatable.

    One thing I haven’t stated yet that deserves notice. I pay a portion of the cost for two types of eye drops for glaucoma and a breathing treatment. There is no reason on God’s green Earth why contraception should be covered 100% by insurance companies. There SHOULD be a copay.

  235. but mostly just hand job solicitations.

    LOL there is no doubt that blog threads overwhelmed by a particular perspective (liberal or conservative) resemble virtual circle jerks. 😀

  236. “I’m not sure I’m outraged so much as amused that a bunch of middle aged men so long for a return to the 1950′s that they think birth control is really debatable.”

    The government contemplated forced purchase of birth control in the 1950s? Who knew.

    Ah yes. the halcyon days of the 50s. . . 🙄 My wife is pissed no one told her she was a middle-aged man longing for the 50s.

  237. Well I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again … we are ALL missing the real point. Health insurance should NOT be tied to employment in any way shape or form. We need an independent source of insurance (public option, single payer, whatever) such that your health insurance does not depend on the whim of your employer.

    It would actually help the economy in that the workforce would freely move from job to job until they found what they liked doing. Now many people work for a company because they can’t afford to lose the health insurance.

  238. The government contemplated forced purchase of birth control in the 1950s? Who knew.

    You know that is not what I’m saying. The 1950’s when sex was in the closet and no one discussed birth control openly. Folks like Santorum want to take us back to a very puritanical time sexually. You might like that. I don’t.

    Ah yes. the halcyon days of the 50s. . . 🙄 My wife is pissed no one told her she was a middle-aged man longing for the 50s.

    Rutherford: Young lady, to whom are you married?
    Lady: I am married to El Tigre.
    Rutherford: Judge, the lady need not be on the jury as her judgment is clearly impaired.

    🙂

  239. “And Dead Rabbit has expressed concern about some of his acquaintances ever seeing some of the stuff he’s written.”-R

    I’d be fired. So, yeah.

    But my wife? I wouldn’t care if she read this blog. In fact, she has.

    My marriage is far from perfect. For example, our white trash fights always end up on the front lawn. One time she hit me over the head with a cactus.

    But, I’m an honest guy. I hide none of dealings. Even when I walk the line of shady.

    Although i can’t really prove it, for better or worse, and I suspect worse, this is the real me.

  240. ” The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal.”

    pfessor, you talk a big game about liberty. But, as soon as an organization you feel silly claims to be trampled on, you’re no where to be found.

    The Catholic Church doesn’t want to pay for shit it finds to be a direct violation of its 1st amendment rights.

    Where does Pfessor cast his rock?

    In the bucket of apathy.

    You think the church is silly, so, in this case, you go with a “if I can’t beat the government, I’ll join them” meme. Notice you don’t approach this particular controversy through the lens of the constitution that you claim to always carry in your front pocket.

    Nope, in this case, the church should shut up because the church is stupid and stuff.

    You’re a very selective libertarian.

    Get off your high horse dude.

  241. “The overall failure rate is ~15%” G-cat

    From what I read, the over all failure rate of 15% is only because of improper use.

    They are 98% effective if used correctly.

  242. Rutherford, I don’t get your pipe dream. If everybody gets insurance and there are no pre-existing conditions, can you tell me why its called “insurance”?

    Isn’t it nothing more then a government mandated lay-away plan that ultimately falls short, requiring deficit spending while resources become more scarce for everyone?

  243. Nice try, thor. The real issue is still freedom of religion as it has been from the begining. The Catholic organizations don’t have to pay the premiums, but they are forced to use insurance carriers who provide contraceptive aid. That is still against church doctrine. They may not be paying the bills, but they are forced to give something against their doctrine.

    As you wrote, if the Catholic Church doesn’t like the rules, they can just go back to being a church. So what happens to their charities?

    The Catholic and other churches run schools and charitable organizations which are often better than what the government provides. Several church leaders have said if the law goes into effect, they will close the hospitals. etc.Some religious organizations are self insured. Will those companies be forced to offer contraceptive coverage?

    Yes, churches are a big business, and if they retreat to only holding services, the government will have to spend more money to pick up the slack. That is an issue separate from the first. Of course, they could be bluffing.

    I agree, R about the co -pay and you have a good point about uniform insurance coverage, as long as it doesn’t conflict with church doctrine. I have glaucoma in one eye. Are you taking the clear drops which cost $7.00 a drop?

    I remember the fifties. Those were the good old days when girls in school who got in trouble vanished for a long time. Jim Crow still ruled the South. We were on vacation in Little Rock after the National Guard enforced integration and my mother wanted a movie of Central High School. Bad move, I didn’t know the bushes could hide so many armed men who could run so fast. They didn’t like us Yankees.

  244. Deadrabbit, Obamacare will eventually take us to that. It is the plan. Senator Tom Harkin’s office told me the original law is like an unfinished house. Single payer for everyone is the ultimate goal.

    Maybe by then, Europe can bail US out.

  245. “fuck ‘em if they can’t handle the truth”.-poolman

    Poolman, do you have a PO Box? I want to send you and your wife a gift certificate for Olive Garden. You two need to tangle your arms and drink house wine as your toast Assad’s victory.

  246. “Rutherford: Judge, the lady need not be on the jury as her judgment is clearly impaired.”

    Touche’. 😆 😆

    As I’ve said, if it weren’t for alcohol, low self esteem and bad judgment, I would still be a virgin — and that wouldn’t have cost anyone a dime.

    (please don’t tell Mrs. Tigre)

  247. I wasn’t around in the 50s.

    So R, am I to understand that men talked about how good it would be if they had to have recreational sex without birth control? 😆

    Sorry Donohue, the dumb applause lines offered by you and Numbnutz are meaningless. No matter how you huff and puff, who should have to pay for contraceptives is the issue. Period.

  248. “As you wrote, if the Catholic Church doesn’t like the rules, they can just go back to being a church.”

    I can’t believe the Church gets grilled by these liberals for their charity works.
    **************************************************************
    How dare the church run nonprofit hospitals!

    Their schools give people an options, many within urban post apocalyptic landscapes.

    Rehab centers.

    Soup kitchens.

    Outreach programs for Hispanic immigrants.

    Programs to stop gang violence.

    They need to bow down to Xerxes because of this outreach into the community.

    Yup. We need to hold this against them.

    Church and their silly doctrine screwing everything up.

    It would be one thing if they concentrated only on the transubstantiation of the holy communion. But noooooo. These big jerks help people in the community. Thus, we should ignore their 1st amendment rights. They have lost way too much street cred helping people, after all.

  249. Applause, deadrabbit. I like your answer as much as a flash mob of 2000 French people dancing to Lady Gaga’s “Born this way.”

    Coming from me, that is a high complement.

  250. GK, there’s little doubt that the rational applied in DHR v. Smith is germane. However, its holding (and obiter dicta) are distinguishable and (from my quick read) not necessarily controlling when it comes to the contraceptive debate here, and in many respects inapposite

    Remember, the denial of benefits in Smith did not require them to betray there religious practice (peyote use) which the SCOTUS already determined was an exception to the general laws applied to the non-religious users.

    The fact peyote use is beyond criminal sanction at all based on religious grounds speaks to the limits of the Court’s applications of Constitutional religious liberties in the context of specific exemptions from general laws like in this debate.

    It also held redress could properly be applied to the legislature, (as opposed to the courts, principally out practicality). The exemption urged here is therefore not misplaced (at this point) under the Scalia’s rational since it is directed the legislature (and executive).

    Smith (and its progeny), while reigning in the breadth of the “compelling state interest” analysis, still holds that neutral laws of general applicability do not violate the Free Exercise clause of the First Amendment, as long as the government applies them in the “least restrictive way.”

    The mandate is not neutral, applied generally, or implemented in the “least restrictive way.” As you know, Obama has been highly selective in granting thousands of exemptions to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act to various groups, including its large corporate friends for reasons that at best qualify as commercial convenience (payback really).

    Hell, there were exemptions from the plan in its entirety on religious grounds for Amish and Muslims (who they say equate insurance with gambling). How do you reconcile that with the limited contraceptive exemption?

    That’s on my first read. However, I am appalled that the so-called right to free contraception over the religious objections of the foundation are so recklessly invoked. If it’s such a burden to pay for contraception, work in a non-religious institution.

    Simply put, no one saying you can’t use contraception. In fact, I’m all in favor of it when it comes to liberals whose demands for tolerance apply only to themselves.

  251. And what the hell is it with Olive Garden? We have got to find you a good ‘ol fashioned mom & pop place with wood paneling, checkered table cloth, and cheap ass Chianti served by the bucket — like God intended!

  252. “Well at least Jesus is happy.”

    That it’s not someone like Obama and his spirtual leader Rev. Wright?

    Man you can be a such a douchebag with your religious intolerance.

    At least Muhammed is happy with your choice. Now go back to your MSNBC.

  253. Tigre thanks for not sidestepping Scalia’s opinion. That said, it’ll take me at least an hour to sort through your legaleze.

    To my laymen’s eye Scalia’s opinion puts the HHS regulation in perfect perspective. The reg was not targeted at the church. Its impact on the church was in Scalia’s words “incidental” and therefore does not violate the first amendment.

  254. I’ve wondered R, how do hold an affinity with two other religious types like MLK or for that matter Al Sharpton?

    MLK in particular claimed and aspired to walk in Christ’s path, often failed miserably, and viewed faith as an important component of social justice. He also never supported a political candidate for office.

  255. “Tigre thanks for not sidestepping Scalia’s opinion. That said, it’ll take me at least an hour to sort through your legaleze.”

    There’s nothing to sidestep. And I don’t believe that it puts the HHS issue in any different perspective than has already been debated.

    Moreover, I don’t belive there’s any real “legaleze” in what I said. The only concepts I articulated should make sense if you read the very short Smith opinion carefully first.

    The real problem for laypersons is one of perspective when it comes to the doctrine applied and a case’s progeny. But, R, you more than anyone I know stand to benefit from actually reading the text of the laws and cases because you so often ignore the intellectual complexities of difficult cases. I am glad you dare to venture into it at times.

  256. “Man you can be a such a douchebag with your religious intolerance.”

    Its embarrassing, isn’t? I’m always shocked Rutherford is 50 years old when I read stuff like that.

  257. Alright, looking back, maybe what I said as more “legaleze” than I let on. I was typing quickly — as shown by the typos and bad grammar.

    Sometimes the best way to approach these things is to argue the against the position you support.

    In this instance, having contraceptives paid for is not a fundamental “right” whereas the free exercise of religion is. Why it can’t it be accommodated through an exemption is the issue. I guess the tortured appeals to gender inequality, racism, “old fashioned thinking from “males” in the 50s (like they didn’t fuck for fun or something) doesn’t address it.

  258. Tigre, do you watch Bill Mahr on HBO?

    When R is being “edgy rutherford” he mimics the shit he hears on that show word for word.

    I hate to bring condoms into it again, but R is a Bill Mahr receptacle.

  259. “The reg was not targeted at the church. Its impact on the church was in Scalia’s words “incidental” and therefore does not violate the first amendment.”

    Obamacare doesn’t target Muslims or Amish either. Moreover, the reg doesn’t have to impact Catholic institutions at all if exemptions were applied with the same sensibilities as others — so I your premise is not necessarily correct. Inequitable application counts too.

  260. Damn. My pool work is starting to get in the way of my blog surfing.

    Rabbit, I LOVE Olive Garden! Always get the same thing, though. I’m stuck on lasagna and salad. I’m not crazy about the breadsticks. I used to finish with the chocolate gelato, but now I just order a second Fat tire. My wife is a ranch fanatic, so we usually get that on the salad. Good eatin’. No PO tho 😉

  261. BTW rabbit, regarding 338, you come off as real. So either way, you’re doing a good job. Keep it up, but try to keep it in the house.

  262. Man Tigre, you forgot to take off the tie when you got to typing some of that shit. I hate reading slow. Damn.

  263. The Jesus comment was a JOKE. Get over yourselves.

    The man’s name is Bill Maher. I’m on my iPhone but once I get back to my PC I’ll cut and paste the comment I made about Maher over at BiW’s place. I’m not as enamored of him as you seem to think.

    Tigre I think I may have missed a detail. Are you saying Amish and Muslims got specific exemptions where Catholics did not? From what I gather Amish and Muslims don’t like insurance at all so exemption is easy vs cherry picking what Catholics don’t like.

    It is frightening to see that Santorum is a force to be reckoned with. If he beats Obama I can’t get to Canada fast enough.

  264. As promised … my comment about Bill Maher that I made over at BiW’s place:

    FWIW, I am growing increasingly tired of Bill Maher. He is a comedian who somewhere along the line got the idea he was politically savvy and should be taken seriously as a pundit. Friday night he mocked American’s knowledge of history and in the very next breath made a reference to our electing Millard Fillmore President. As any fifth grader knows, Fillmore was never elected POTUS, He ascended to the Presidency upon the death of Zachary Taylor.

    This is typical Maher … an arrogant prick with an inconsistent value system (smokes dope but whines about preservatives in our food). I watch his show primarily now for the panel discussions which I enjoy.

  265. When R is being “edgy rutherford” he mimics the shit he hears on that show word for word.

    I’m not sure why it gives you guys so much comfort to believe I don’t have a mind or a voice of my own. If thinking I’m a himbo helps you reconcile what I have to say, well more power to you.

    Now if only you guys would go the extra mile and spread the word that I’m built like a himbo too! 🙂

  266. “I’m not sure why it gives you guys so much comfort to believe I don’t have a mind or a voice of my own. If thinking I’m a himbo helps you reconcile what I have to say, well more power to you.”

    You answered your own question, didn’t you?

    It’s the same everywhere, whether liberal or conservative blogs. If folks can attack you personally and characterize you as a tool or a dupe or a himbo – er, bimbo – then that gives them the excuse to be intellectually lazy and not deal with what you said. Laziness, pure and simple.

    When the ad hominem comes out, my finger automatically presses the scroll arrow, because what comes after that first word is irrelevant.

  267. “When the ad hominem comes out, my finger automatically presses the scroll arrow, because what comes after that first word is irrelevant.”

    Says the guy that never hesitates to unleash it. 🙄

  268. “I’m not sure why it gives you guys so much comfort to believe I don’t have a mind or a voice of my own. If thinking I’m a himbo helps you reconcile what I have to say, well more power to you.”

    Oh. I didn’t realize MSNBC was just repeating what you said. 😆

    R, when you’re at your shallowest, it is always a verbatim repeat of what I saw on MSNBC or the portion of the Daily Show played on MSNBC. Not similar. Verbatim.

  269. Poolman, the Absurdity of Stonekettle station don’t mean nothing, and I will tell you why.

    We already know about Bill Mahre’s vile comments and Obmana’s saying nothing about the million dollars Bill is contributing to the campaign. A Democrat rep who appeared on Mahre’s show said nothing of his insults but she ripped into Rush. A labor leader insulted the Tea Party with vulgar language while suggesting violence, and Obama stood by smiling.

    Alec Baldwin said Rep Henry Hyde should be stoned. He was also banned from the Philipines as an undesirable alien after he joked he wanted to buy a Fillipino wife.

    He also tweeted “C’mon!!! Let’s all go Town Hall on that supreme thinker @michellemalkin. A world class, crypto fascist hater!”

    Obama refused to visit our flood area twice when he was already in Iowa. I don’t think he has called any representatives of the tornado victims yet. He has not called any of the conservative women who were insulted. However, he called Fluke.

    “And that, right there, says everything you need to know.”

  270. “GypsyKat that was one helluva quote. You neglected to point out it was written by Justice Antonin Scalia.”

    I didn’t neglect, I simply assumed rabid conservatives would know Scalia’s writings verbatim. 😉

    Rabbit, regarding condoms and improper use, you prove my point exactly as to why I won’t entrust the entirety of my pregnancy prevention to a man.

    Rutherford, if you look at the list of health services HHS says should be covered without copay, contraception fits in with regards to breadth of applicability in preventative health and wellness. It may be fair to argue nothing should be covered without copay (then give us the public option that will!), but in the vein of what HHS categorizes as being broadly applicable to the categories of men, women, and children, contraception shouldn’t be singled out for “controversy.”

  271. “Rabbit, regarding condoms and improper use, you prove my point exactly as to why I won’t entrust the entirety of my pregnancy prevention to a man.”

    Good. Problem solved. If you decide to work at a Catholic institution, you can pay for it yourself. You’ll be dependent on no one. And you can rely on the “belt and suspenders” approach to assuage the man’s concerns about disease and the risk that you might “forget” seek to get pregnant when he’s only looking for a good time and not a lifetime personal or financial commitment to you or your child, right? Of course he can pay for his own condoms too if he works at a Catholic institution.

    A solution that has existed all along newly discovered.

  272. Tigre, nope, I work in a business providing the same services as other secular businesses I expect the same insurance coverage I get elsewhere for the same price. Or give me a public option offering the same coverage at a comparable price freeing me from employer coverage entirely.

    “And you can rely on the “belt and suspenders” approach to assuage the man’s concerns about disease and the risk that you might “forget” seek to get pregnant when he’s only looking for a good time and not a lifetime personal or financial commitment to you or your child, right? ”

    I think I’m too young to get the belt and suspenders phrase. But in my heyday, it was condoms for disease prevention and medical contraception for pregnancy prevention. And in my married life, we can dispense with the condoms and I have my IUD. As for paying for it myself, I was a rich doctor’s daughter then and a well-paid corporate whore now. I’ve never had to worry about healthcare in any regard my whole life.

  273. “I think I’m too young to get the belt and suspenders phrase.”

    It’s not an age-specific metaphor. The point is that they both serve the same purpose.

    So no one is denying you any reproductive choices by failing to pay for them, and you are not requiring anyone to abandon their religious stances. What a country! (Yakov Smirnoff in case you need to visit Wikipedia for that one).

  274. “From what I gather Amish and Muslims don’t like insurance at all so exemption is easy vs cherry picking what Catholics don’t like.”

    This distinction makes a difference how exactly? Or are you saying that Catholics should be entitled to an exemption from the OIbamacare mandates altogether? From what I understand, that would be acceptable them.

  275. R, when you’re at your shallowest, it is always a verbatim repeat of what I saw on MSNBC or the portion of the Daily Show played on MSNBC. Not similar. Verbatim.

    That only goes to show you don’t know what the word verbatim means. Believe me, this 50+ year old brain is no longer able to remember what I hear well enough to regurgitate it “verbatim”. And if you really think I have the time to search for show transcripts and then copy/paste them as my own thoughts, you’ve truly lost it.

    As I’ve pointed out repeatedly, folks who talk from a liberal perspective sound the same. That goes for conservatives also. That’s why you’re able to sound just like Fox news on your “best” days without ever having watched it.

  276. A world class, crypto fascist hater!

    That’s on a par with slut? I’m not entirely sure what “crypto fascist” is but it’s a lot more imaginative than “slut”. I happen to think Malkin is a hater. In fact, she makes my skin crawl. Her face is frozen in a permanent smirk.

    If your point is that the left has gotten away with some doozies you’ll get no argument from me. When the left craps its pants the outrage machine does not go into overdrive the way it does with the right. Still, Ed Schultz has been suspended on occasion for being nasty and he did apologize to Laura Ingraham for calling her a “slut”. So sometimes even the left is called out for their nastiness.

    Bottom line: the level of discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.

  277. “That’s why you’re able to sound just like Fox news on your “best” days without ever having watched it.”

    Point that out for me when you see it please. Personally, I don’t think you watch FOX for fear it would cause your to cut back on your allotted 14 hours per day of MSNBC. 😆

  278. Tigre, if Muslims and the Amish get an exemption from Obamacare then sure, give Catholics the exemption too. Solves the problem in one fell swoop.

    By the way, I heard something on the radio this morning that I haven’t verified but it is interesting. Georgetown U does insure its EMPLOYEES for birth control but does not provide that insurance for students. Mmmm makes the matter of conscience argument a lot weaker if you ask me.

  279. “Bottom line: the level of discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.”

    Sure has. Look at my list of threatening rhetoric from the left at 118 aftr Giffords’ shooting. That took upwards of 5 minutes to find, and link to.

    And not a peep from Old Rutherford after his MSNBC-fueled tantrum after Gabby Giffords’ shooting.

  280. GypsyKat, this is where I do understand SOME of what the right is saying. If we limit our discussion of contraception to pure birth control, not regulation of heavy periods, ovarian cyst treatment, etc.then contraception is not preventative because being pregnant is not a disease. Therefore, if a man has to pay full price for condoms, it seems only fair that women at least pay a co-pay for the pill.

    The notion that the pill is on the same level as a flu shot just doesn’t make sense to me when we’re talking pure birth control, non remedial usage.

  281. Personally, I don’t think you watch FOX for fear it would cause your to cut back on your allotted 14 hours per day of MSNBC.

    Damn straight Skippy. I only watch Fox when hospitalized. 🙂

    P.S. Actually I do watch Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace in bed every Sunday night. I usually fall asleep before the first segment is done. 😀

  282. “Georgetown U does insure its EMPLOYEES for birth control but does not provide that insurance for students. Mmmm makes the matter of conscience argument a lot weaker if you ask me.”

    I wouldn’t know and Georgetown’s honesty/consistency on the subject is besides the point. There are plenty of institutions that have a problem with it and have a right to.

    But go on with your attack of Catholicism and Catholics in general try to stick. . .

  283. “and try to make it stick. . .”

    I think you need to examine your understanding of religious freedom and your own (abject lack of ) tolerance (of Christians). After all, that is the debate — not whether you think Catholics are stupid or phony which is neither a deciding criterion nor something for you to decide.

  284. “If the Catholic Church doesn’t like the rules, they can just go back to being a church. Of course, where’s the fun in that.”
    Goddammit, thor. That is a real pearl. May I steal it and spread it around liberally? – PF

    Be my guest. But remember, with great power comes great responsibility. 😉

  285. “My marriage is far from perfect. For example, our white trash fights always end up on the front lawn. One time she hit me over the head with a cactus.” – Rabbit

    I kind of pictured you as Wahlberg in “Four Brothers” but, after this revelation, I’m picturing you more like Nicholas Cage in “Raising Arizona.” 🙂

  286. It is just stunning the sense of entitlement and privilege felt by these church organizations. They think it’s perfectly OK to enter into secular businesses (like insurance or medical care) – that have nothing whatsoever to do with saving souls or glorifying gods – but then somehow they are exempt from the same rules that govern everybody else.

    They could always go back to being a church, but what’s the fun in that? (HT to thor)

  287. Tigre this comes down to a very simple principle. Churches don’t exist in a vacuum. They exist in a society. Some societies have chosen to give churches the final say in everything (these are theocracies). Some societies have chosen to shut out religious considerations altogether (the USSR comes to mind). Then there is our grand experiment, the United States of America, where we try to strike a balance between religious tolerance and the rule of law.

    I don’t see a clear cut violation of the First Amendment when a church knowingly engages in a business sector that is subject to mandates that the church might not be comfortable with.

    It’s almost like if I had a huge problem with nudity but agreed to be the webmaster of a porn site. I can’t very well get into that business sector and then spend all my time yelling and screaming about how foul public nudity is.

    What I don’t understand is how you don’t see what a great nation we have that we haven’t just told the Catholic church to STFU and obey the law. The fact that this is even open to extended debate says something very positive about our country.

  288. Pfesser, the problem is you get an answer from folks like Tex that providing medical care is an extension of the church’s doing Christ’s work. The claim of the church is that you cannot separate engaging in the “business” from doing the work of Christ according to His principles.

    While I land on your side of the grey line, I do still see a grey line.

  289. Yes, Rutherford, I think Crypto fascist is as bad as slut. It means she is a hidden or secret fascist.

    Matt Taibbi wrote “Now when I read her stuff, I imagine her narrating her text, book-on-tape style with a big hairy….in her mouth. It vastly improves her prose.”

    That is one of the least objectionable comments she has gotten.

    Maybe she has reason to be angry.

    Yes, my point is the left has been treated differently than the right, and until we see parity, I will spare myself any more outrage over Rush. I also consider the left’s rants to be manufactured to get rid of a thorn in its side. Therefore, the blog linked by Poolman “don’t mean nothin.”

    Remember one of the founders of crass language was Teddy Kennedy, a liberal icon. Bork became a verb.

    I agree with what you wrote in 383.

  290. “The Catholic and other churches run schools and charitable organizations which are often better than what the government provides. Several church leaders have said if the law goes into effect, they will close the hospitals. etc.Some religious organizations are self insured. Will those companies be forced to offer contraceptive coverage?” – James

    This law is already on the books in 28 states, including Mass. where Mittens helped put it. Did you see Boston University close their doors?

  291. “The fact that this is even open to extended debate says something very positive about our country.”

    Huh? You’re the one saying it’s preposterous.

    Sorry R, repetition has not added weight to your argument.

    “I don’t see a clear cut violation of the First Amendment when a church knowingly engages in a business sector that is subject to mandates that the church might not be comfortable with.”

    They haven’t been enacted yet (and hopefully never will).

  292. Isn’t it nothing more then a government mandated lay-away plan that ultimately falls short, requiring deficit spending while resources become more scarce for everyone?

    Actually I love this idea provided we can stop all the negatives you cite from happening.

    My utopia is a world of controlled health care costs where we all could “lay away” some funds in a group pool that makes healthcare less expensive for everyone and the costs are covered without deficit spending.

  293. Are you taking the clear drops which cost $7.00 a drop?

    I take two types each of which run me about $20.00 a bottle. Azopt is one of them (a suspension that leaves flakes on your eyelashes) and Travatan-Z, a clear drop.

  294. “My utopia is a world of controlled health care costs where we all could “lay away” some funds in a group pool that makes healthcare less expensive for everyone and the costs are covered without deficit spending.”

    And that’s why Rutherford failed economics. 😆

    You should’ve picked your Utopia to be a world free from disease and poverty. . . and free ice cream for all!!

  295. These big jerks help people in the community. Thus, we should ignore their 1st amendment rights. They have lost way too much street cred helping people, after all.

    Rabbit, consider the following scenario:

    I set aside the entire east wing of my home to good works. I invite poor kids from the adjacent neighborhood over for free food. I contribute to their college educations. I give them a rec room where they can have fun and stay off the street.

    Every Friday night, I build a fire pit in my front lawn and I sacrifice a stray animal from the neighborhood in honor of my God. The police tell me to knock it off. I reply, “how can you persecute me when I do so many good things for the community?”

    The good works of the Church are irrelevant when it comes to obeying the laws of the land. No one is above the law.

    How did you feel about the Blunt amendment? It extended the First Amendment to cover not only religious objections but ANY matter of conscience objection to a law. That leads to everyone operating under their own moral code and there being no common law. That’s called anarchy.

  296. Rabbit @ 347,

    I applaud the charity of the Catholic Church. But when they open a soup kitchen, they must follow the rules of the Board of Health like any other food dispenser, charitable or otherwise. If they CHOOSE to enter the world of large employers providing health insurance, they have to follow the rules.

    IMO, the bending over backwards for one single religion that this exemption represents is exactly what the Founding Fathers were trying to guard against.

  297. “The good works of the Church are irrelevant when it comes to obeying the laws of the land. No one is above the law.”

    Like paying taxes unless you’re an entity that . . . oop!

  298. Tigre to answer a question you posed earlier …. I am very conflicted about MLK. The fact that he was boinking women other than his wife makes him a religious hypocrite in my opinion. However, I cannot take away from him that he inspired his followers to greatness. His message was positive and pacifist. On that basis he deserves some reverence.

    The only positive thing I can say about Sharpton is that he has made an effort to redeem himself from his hustler image of 30 years ago.

  299. “Pfesser, the problem is you get an answer from folks like Tex that providing medical care is an extension of the church’s doing Christ’s work. The claim of the church is that you cannot separate engaging in the “business” from doing the work of Christ according to His principles.”

    Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Take my friend Colin, for example. He runs a BDSM porn megasite and is rich as Croesus. He’s doing God’s work, you know – “be fruitful and multiply” is what the Bible says, isn’t it? Well, he’s just helping people get in the *mood* to be fruitful. See how that works? So he shouldn’t be subject to the rules that govern the rest of us. I think he’d like to start with the tax thing – which is to say he doesn’t want to pay any – you know, like the church.

    Of course he COULD go to *being* a church, but where’s the fun in that? (HT again to thor)

  300. That’s why I asked the question, thor. I don’t know the answer. The exceptions you mentioned were created by states, not the federal government, right?

    This mandate is federal with no escape across state borders.

    Several Catholic organizations have threatened to close their charitable and other organizations. If they aren’t bluffing. What will happen? Will they cease to exist? Will the government have to take over? Will others buy the businesses, and if so, how will it affect the customers and communities?

    I agree the Blunt Amendment’s allowing any matter of conscience objection to law is tandemount to anarchy. A soldier could refuse to fight in a certain war for example.

  301. Yep Rabbit, they’re going drive those Catholics out of business or violate their doctrine ’cause that’s what this country was founded on. . . 🙄

  302. Hey, turns out there’s religious exemptions from the ‘law of the land” when it comes to mandatory vaccination and school attendance too.

    I guess R has you by the tail Rabbit. . . still looking for the burn a goat in your residential front yard exception (I guess as opposed to a church or BBQ pit) . . .

  303. Still looking. . . but I also discovered that there are exceptions to “the law of the land” when it comes testing and performance requirements for certain minorities seeking government jobs too. . . .

  304. So R, are you saying that MLK would’ve been entitled to more reverence had he not been a “man of the cloth?”

    Mmmm, that’s an odd way of putting it. No, I don’t think I’m saying that at all. You can’t separate MLK from religion. It was part of his fiber. The problem with religion and with preaching in particular is it sets up standards that are very hard for humans to achieve. So MLK talks all righteous while he’s cheating on his wife. I have a problem with that.

    However, it was the tradition of the church that made King such a brilliant speaker. So no, I don’t think he would have been entitled to more reverence had he been totally secular.

  305. “Still looking. . . but I also discovered that there are exceptions to “the law of the land” when it comes testing and performance requirements for certain minorities seeking government jobs too. . . .”

    Yep, that’s what happens when you abandon your principles, isn’t it? You start treating people differently and pretty soon, down that old slippery slope you go. Before you know it, all sorts of paradoxes and inconsistencies crop up and you are forced to dance, bob and weave to explain why THIS is OK, but THAT is NOT.

    One day (I hope) Americans are going to take a long look at the last fifty years’ social engineering and just shake their heads: What The Hell Were They Thinking About?

  306. R, my comments about MLK are motivated by yours concerning Santorum and the religious right whom you often characterize as dangerous zealots (i.e. Bachman). Yet, when it comes to religion from the left suddenly you have no problem with it, even when it is ‘part of their fiber.”

    As I’ve told you, I’m not a religious man. But I still find your selective intolerance utterly shameless, bereft of meaning in the context of politics or social doctrine, and bigoted. Since you only take pride in your anti-religiousness when you think it acts to denigrate conservatives, I don’t find much intellectual honesty from you in debates like the one we’re having over the contraception issue.

  307. That’s awesome Obama footage! No teleprompter either. I really like that guy. Thanks, Magilla. I guess that’s part of Breitbart’s big bang? Figures you’d have it. Got more?

  308. I’d be the first to admit that I’m not sure what the big deal is. Probably because I don’t know the background on the race baiter being defended, but alas, here it is. Supposedly, Hannity is showing an unedited version of this later that will have a lot more. Who knows and I guess we’ll see tonight…

  309. Rutherford, I take Iatanoprost in the generic form now. It has been adapted to increase the growth of eyelashes. Doctors told me a side effect besides the eye lashes, my blue eye might turn brown. Nothing like that happened and my eye pressure has stayed normal while my other eye is still healthy.

  310. Ron Paul wants to eliminate income taxes eventually. I don’t know what all of you guys living off the government’s “business” are going to do if that ever happens. Dangerous, eh?

    A true church wouldn’t mix secular practices and spiritual worship. The money changers have been kicked out of the courts in the past, as I recall.

    Just as church and state shouldn’t mix, neither should church and business.

    We will always have poor among us, but it doesn’t say to be apathetic about it or cease with the charity.

    Too many middlemen spoil the pool.

  311. “A true church wouldn’t mix secular practices and spiritual worship. The money changers have been kicked out of the courts in the past, as I recall.”

    What dos this mean?

  312. MLK, like any other man of God, is HUMAN, with ALL the urges and desires of the flesh to beat down. That is why all the heroes of the Bible are flawed and the narrative exposes them for what they are. King David was guilty of adultery and murder and was told he was not worthy to build God’s earthly temple because he was a man of war. His son Solomon was given that privilege but his own great kingdom was brought down as he gave his worship to women and their idols.

    Humans are inherently flawed. Most are still operating in the beta version. There is an upgrade available. Common name is “born again”. It’s like a new OS running in conjunction with the old one. The goal is to eventually dump the old OS as one learns to function under the control of the perfected version. The problem is the human switch, common name “free will”.

    Only one perfect human existed on this planet, Rutherford. Jesus. Yeshua, as He is called in his native Hebrew, which actually means savior. It was a common name at the time since the Jews were all expecting a savior. His people considered Him a bastard and his mother an adulteress, but He learned His earthly father’s trade and practiced amazing carpentry skills. Unschooled, and at 12 years old He could quote the Holy Scriptures and reveal the meanings as He debated the scribes and pharisees that were learned.

    Most that knew Him could not accept Him as God in the flesh.

  313. What dos this mean?

    An institution is not a church. A church in its pure form is people joined together in unity of spirit. We have made it a building with administration and maintenance requirements.

    If business is being conducted, it’s an institution and should conform to society’s rules for businesses. If those societies determine to give them a “break” because they are providing free or charitable “works” or for whatever reason such societies decide, so be it. But don’t consider it all “holy work” unless it is strictly dedicated entirely to worship and charity.

    The money changers being kicked out was from the life of Christ.

  314. I agree Poolman. So far, society has determined that church charities, hospitals, and schools are charitable works and represent the church. “An institution is not a church.” It is a reflection of a church. You can’t get rid of the money changers. They make the world run.

    What do you mean about keeping the water balanced?

    I think before we ban income taxes we ought to have a guaranteed source of revenue to replace the tax money.

    According to the blog PilotCatholicNews.com the White House noted that the mandates are a “fait accompi’ and the rules have been published in the Federal Register “without change.” The White House told Cardinal Dolan, president of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops that the issue of religious freedom is off the table. “Questions remain as to how it affects religious workers who are self-employed.” The bishops were advised to “listen to the enlightened voices of accomodation” and stop complaining.

    They will continue to fight.

    You may say its “dead Jim” or “that’s all folks” However you put it, its done. Obama said so.

  315. Should government be engaged in business? That’s a damn good question. My gut reaction is government should not be engaged in for-profit business. The minute the government offers a service for which a fee is charged (such as the Post Office) they are engaged in business. Some of these services are essential to a well run society. So to ban government from conducting “business” is extreme. I just don’t want them making a profit. To my mind, profit is reserved for the free market.

  316. Should government be engaged in business?

    Only the business that is allowed for in its constitution.

    In the case of Israel that has no written constitution, I don’t know what to tell you. They are operating in breach of their agreed rules of establishment. t better way to make the rules up as you go?

  317. What do you mean about keeping the water balanced?

    Water is an amazing thing. We still can’t figure out why and what it is or does completely. It baffles and amazes the most brilliant scientists. Verbal commands, among other things can completely change its structure. Pure water alone can heal and disinfect, among other things, and it has been found to be quantum coherent, helping to explain how homeopathy works.

    Everything known in the universe has at minimum a single molecular water layer around it.

    And we humans are at least 70 percent water, some as much as 78 percent. Holy water has a distinct crystalline structure, as does spring water.

    One more amazing thing is that water naturally tries to balance itself if it is out of balance. It steals or deposits minerals from the vessel as it is able. Sort of a justice principle…

    Google the miracle of water if interested…

  318. I just don’t want them making a profit.” – R

    Well, considering you used the Post Office as your example, I think it safe to say, you don’t have to worry about profits…

  319. Thanks Poolman. Agreed gorilla and El Tigre.

    The Postal Service gave its workers too generous health and pension services, and they can’t afford the generous settlements. Their problem is similar to many state and local governments.

    The Europeans are ahead of us and trying to pull back while we plunge ahead toward perdition.

    A solar storm is approaching us, and it could make electricity and electronics fail. The Northern Lights may be visible as far south as southern Wisconsin and northern Iowa tonight and over Missouri tomorrow night. The almost full moon should hurt viewing, but it could be quite a show.

  320. Nice Deb discusses the video of young Obama, part of which we saw here. He was praising Derrick Bell, a radical professor tied to Rev Jeremiah Wright. He is one of the founders of the “Critical Race Theory.” Racial minorities are in a permanently oppressed state. Therefore equality before the law is unfair to blacks. Their moral claims are superior to those of whites.

    Bell has endorsed a journal called “Race Traitor” who’s motto is “Treason to the white race is loyalty to humanity.” The journal is dedicated to the “abolition of whiteness.” Oppressed racial groups have the right and duty to decide which laws are valid and are worth observing.

    This freedom of religion debate is only one example of Obama’s taking the law into his own hands. Maybe it explains Eric Holder, if it is true..

    The tape will be released on Hannity tonight. We don’t have cable, so someone else will have to watch.

  321. I’ll be looking for the Northern Lights tonight.

    I remember laying on my back looking at them one night in Iceland. I found the fact that this universe created sentient beings able to reflect on and contemplate its own beauty to be a mind blowing absurdity. Why not take a leap of faith when your own consciousness is just as implausible?

    .

  322. I agree.

    It is cloudy here, so we will have to wait for tomorrow night. I am looking forward to the show. The Aura’s beauty is inspiring, as you write. Imagine how our prehistoric ancestors must have reacted to the lights.

    My wife was briefly in Iceland. I’d like to visit.

  323. For you folks that don’t frequent M&H, I wanted to share this from Whirled Peas, one of the posters there. He says this is Rush’s apology without the EIB filter on…

  324. “An institution is not a church. A church in its pure form is people joined together in unity of spirit. We have made it a building with administration and maintenance requirements.
    If business is being conducted, it’s an institution and should conform to society’s rules for businesses. If those societies determine to give them a “break” because they are providing free or charitable “works” or for whatever reason such societies decide, so be it. But don’t consider it all “holy work” unless it is strictly dedicated entirely to worship and charity.”

    Pool-dude, for a believer you are remarkably sane.

  325. “Water is an amazing thing. We still can’t figure out why and what it is or does completely. It baffles and amazes the most brilliant scientists. Verbal commands, among other things can completely change its structure.”

    Then there are the other times…

  326. No disrespect is intended for you or Whirled Peas, Poolman, but I’m not interested in what H&M has to say. I watch most of your links, but I will pass on that one.

    We already know the fake, selective outrage against Rush is a weapon to get rid of him.

    We also know the religious liberty discussion is moot. Obama told the bishops it is settled, and they might as well fall in line and accomodate.

    Yes, water is amazing. it is almost alive sometimes. Thunderstorms, for example perform many of the functions of living things. They can reproduce, for example, and they will sometimes change course to better utilize a food source–warm humid air.

  327. James – I don’t think the outrage against Rush is any kind of plot. I think people are genuinely pissed, and as the father of three adult daughters I’m not very damned happy myself. I thought we had left this kind of crap behind thirty years ago. More like fifty, actually…

    Actually, the video IMHO probably summarizes Rush’s attitude pretty well. He really doesn’t give a hoot what people think and he’s just trying to keep his playhouse from being torn down by slinging the shit, just like the hippo. I think the analogy is positively inspired.

  328. Pfessor, some of the outrage against Rush is genuine, but most is emotional manipulation by people who have wanted to get rid of him and other conservative talk show hosts. They are also organizing to persuade sponsors to drop radio stations which carry conservative talk shows.

    One of the hosts of radio KFAB, Omaha said many of the hostile e mails and calls make all of the same points in different ways. He Media Matters and allies are coaching people on what to write.

    David Axelrod who had criticized Rush will be on Bill Mahre’s show.
    Maybe they will work a Two and a Half Men script where like Charly harper, Bill acts contrite.

    As the father of a daughter and husband of my wife, those comments don’t thrill me either, but until we see a fair standard, I will believe the core of this outrage is contrived by opportunists.

  329. Rush is a businessman selling a product. I don’t know if he is genuinely contrite or not. It doesn’t matter. He is no different than a meat company when a shipment of their product tests positive for samenala.

  330. until we see a fair standard, I will believe the core of this outrage is contrived by opportunists.

    I think you are seeing a “fair” standard, if by that you mean the same treatment from one as the other. Standing in the center of the spectrum, I see both sides doing essentially the same things. I think Pfesser would agree.

    It just SEEMS like the other side is doing all the slinging if you’ re on the opposite bank.

    If you were standing on the back of that hippo, it would appear to sling equally left and right, as opposed to straddling one side of his big rubbery ass or the other. 😀 That is generally how us indies view the public tail waggings.

  331. Pfesser,

    regarding 451, apparently you are unfamiliar with the work of Dr. Masaru Emoto, among others. Here’s a small sampling…

  332. I’m not referring to the tasteless right or left. I am referring to observers’ reactions. The left does not get the same treatment as the right, in part because the media doesn’t try to generate or organize righteous anger against liberals. Its true some like Ed Shultz have applogised, and I think he was suspended once, but no mobs tried to get him fired.

    Today, an OWS group is staging a sit- in at a Lincoln, Nebraska radio station over Rush.

    I understand why they do it. Conservatives are more successful talk show hosts than liberals, and liberals don’t like it for ideological and financial reasons. .

    Even Obama has said things which if a Republican had said the same would have caused trouble.

    Can you think of a liberal who has gotten the same treatment as Rush? I’m not being snarky. I just can’t think of any. Maybe you can.

  333. I think Keith Olberman got similar treatment for his rants and actually lost his show. And then if they are liberal and female and gay, they seem to have a continual attack by certain opponents in an attempt to discredit and shut down their voice. Ellen DeGeneres comes to mind.

    Obama has had more death threats than any other president in history. He is criticized AS MUCH as others have. Maybe more, given the many varying opportunities available today.

    Once again, I don’t think you can see it from a neutral perspective. I used to have the same discussion with Tex. He is so far right, everything looks left. I think you are more apt to try, but your default is not far off from his.

  334. I would also posit that conservatives have a thicker skin than liberals. When Schultz calls Ingraham a “slut”, I’m quite sure her immediate response is “what an assh*le”. When Allen West calls Debbie Wasserman-Schultz whatever nasty epithet he called her, it’s like a dagger to the heart for liberals.

    I actually think conservatives care much less what people think of them than liberals do.

  335. “I actually think conservatives care much less what people think of them than liberals do.”

    Agreed. Liberals are thin-skinned, egocentric pussies. 😆

    Amazing how vicious and crude they can be when it comes to dishing it out.

  336. “When Allen West calls Debbie Wasserman-Schultz whatever nasty epithet he called her, it’s like a dagger to the heart for liberals.”

    That’s what happens when your objective is to assume the role of victim at every opportunity.

    R, I consider liberals the insolent, yet vain and confused teenage girls of America’s social spectrum.

    Oh, and humorless too. 😆

  337. Money is pouring into Democratic coffers. The Republican’t candidates are getting less air time than a talk show host. Please Rush, don’t go anywhere. Fight, fight,fight. 😉

    BTW, Bill Maher is defending Rush. If that doesn’t prove this is working for Obama, I don’t know what could.

  338. ET @ 462
    Thanks for the link to the good news. I liked this part best.

    “The consensus forecast, however, is for no change in the government’s unemployment rate. February jobless claims were running at roughly 350,000 during the month, implying a relatively stable unemployment rate. Additionally, Wednesday’s ADP report suggesting that private-sector jobs increased by more than 200,000 in February is also somewhat supportive of a stable unemployment rate forecast.”

  339. I am definitely biased. My and others’ treatment when I came home made me hate liberals. In 2003, I joined liberal blogs and message boards because my dislike of them was unhealthy. I don’t hate them any more, but a species of hard core conservatives and liberals is not worth my time.

    Kieth Olberman did not get the same treatment as Rush or Glenn Beck. Some conservatives complained, but I think his problems were as much the result of job related discord as what he said. I also think he got into trouble for admitting he had contributed campaign money which was against the rules.

    Of course, Rush is the king, and he attracts more attention than the others, especially the liberal talkers. That makes him a perfect target.

    Ellen was victimized by a small niche group of people who didn’t have the numbers , and she is still successful.

    I agreed with Bill Mahr’s cowardice comment which got him fired. People misunderstood what he said, and he should have kept his job. He is one example of someone who was treated like Rush.

    The number of death threats against Obama is a different issue. I’m discussing what he has said and done. Obama said “when they bring a knife to a fight, bring a gun.” He also called the Tea Party, an obscenity. A Republican would have not been ignored. The press influences how many people react to these things.

    Liberals have learned the sensitivity of weenies because it works. The debate was about religious freedom, and now it is about contraception and the status of women.

    Thor nailed it.

  340. ET @ 413

    Thanks for doing my research again. I might have to put you on retainer as my grip or errand boy.

    “Massachusetts is on the roster of states with an exemption to the coverage mandate that Guttmacher labels as “broader” — meaning that most churches and schools don’t have to provide birth control coverage but universities and hospitals do.”

    So James, the answer to your question is, Yes, they are bluffing. Catholic universities in Massachusetts are required to provide birth control coverage and have done so without the least hiccup in the functioning of their cash cows … er, charitable organizations.

    Obama’s exemption actually lands somewhere in the middle on the spectrum of state exemptions. The only reason righties consider it “radical” is because, of course, it’s “Obama’s exemption”.

  341. “Numbnutz, this word, “unemployment rate,” I do not believe that it means what you think it means. . .” – ET

    I could google all day and not find a definition you agree with but it doesn’t matter what it means, it matters how it is used. If it starts to trend back up significantly, Obama is toast. If it continues to trend down, the Republican’ts better change the subject. Iran … birth control … gay marriage anyone?

  342. thor, you are probably right about the Catholics’ bluffing. However, writing that righties consider it radical only because it is Obama’s is unprovable opinion- a cheap shot.

    I think I know what ET means, and he can explain better than I.

    My view is that the seasonally adjusted unemployment rate is not comparable to several years past because the number of people in the work force has fallen. Thus, the unemployment rate is a percentage of a smaller total than in the past. It would be higher if compared to 2005 or so.

    Gallup estimates that without the seasonal adjustment, the unemployment rose to 9.9% from 8.6% in February. Under employment is much higher of course. Gallop believes part of the rise in the unemployment rate according to their calculations is due in part to the the larger labor force as more workers who gave up have started to look for jobs again.

    I agree, if the unemployment rate continues to trend down, Republicans need another issue. As you know, gay marriage and birth control are bad issues-another cheap shot. I am pro- choice and support gay marriage, so those issues wouldn’t energize me.

  343. Really? Conservative women are allowed to be violently and permanently mutalated, and there is nothing particularly offensive. Sure R, if it wasn’t for double standards, the left would have no standards…

  344. “I actually think conservatives care much less what people think of them than liberals do.” -Rutherford

    On the one hand, I think there’s a good deal of truth in this. On the other hand, the first paragraph of your comment #461 churned and burned me pretty good. My initial thought was, “Is he kidding?” Faced with the itchy react or reflect dilemma, I reckon I’m going to have a little bit of both. I’ve been wanting to say hello anyway.

    Rutherford, if you really believe what you wrote, then I don’t think you understand at all the nature of conservatives. And I admit, I don’t get you either. Your hypersensitivity to the slurs and insults hurled your way is contradicted by a lack of sensitivity for those hurled this way. Same here. So much for enlightenment.

    Anyway I’m glad you’re well. Hi’s to the boys. And the ladies.

    ~~~

    A cactus. :lol Vivid.

  345. violently and permanently mutalated

    Now isn’t that a bit over the top? Randi said she wanted the ladies ovaries repossessed. Kind of equivalent to saying she wanted their membership in the sisterhood revoked.

  346. Hey Muffy, I’ve actually been thinking of writing you to make sure everything is ok at your end. Glad you stopped by. You’ve been missed.

    As for 461, I just suspect that conservatives laugh off half the insults thrown their way by liberals. I don’t think conservatives take libs as seriously as libs take conservatives.

  347. “thor, you are probably right about the Catholics’ bluffing. However, writing that righties consider it radical only because it is Obama’s is unprovable opinion- a cheap shot.” – J

    Totally provable. Not a cheap shot at all (BTW, where’s that conservative toughness R keeps telling me about 😉 ). Little or nothing was made of this by right wing talkers while the process went on in 28 states, including Texas – not exactly the birthplace of the hammer and sickle – but the firestorm certainly began once it was proposed by Obama’s administration.

    “As you know, gay marriage and birth control are bad issues-another cheap shot. I am pro- choice and support gay marriage, so those issues wouldn’t energize me.” J

    This was not a cheap shot. Santorum is running on these issues. I was merely offering my opinion as to why.

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