The Case For/Against Barack Obama

When I heard that two self-described conservatives had weighed in on the merits of the Obama administration, I eagerly anticipated reading the articles and commenting here. Ultimately I was disappointed. First, let me explain “self-described conservatives”. If my conservative readers are any judge, neither Andrew Sullivan nor David Frum are true blue conservatives. Sullivan, a newly minted American citizen hailing from the United Kingdom, and gay, abandoned the Republican party quite conspicuously some years ago, while claiming his conservative bona fides were as strong as ever. Frum had the audacity to suggest that the GOP needed to be more inclusive and lose the crazy if it wanted to survive: blasphemy to the hard-core. For coloring outside the lines, both men have been called RINO’s by their critics. Still, since the two men took opposite sides on the Obama debate, I wanted to see what they had to say.

Sullivan: A Love Letter to Obama

In his Newsweek cover story, Andrew Sullivan comes out of the chute, risking any claim to objective analysis by declaring himself an unabashed fan of Barack Obama. We try to ignore that and look at the claims:

  • In 2010, we stopped shedding jobs and since then have gained 2.4 million more jobs, more than were added net in 8 years of Bush. The bleeding stopped concurrent with the stimulus. This is fine enough but Sullivan makes no effort to convince us of the cause-effect relationship of the stimulus to the job gains.
  • Government employment has declined 2.6% since 2009. So much for growth of government under Obama. No argument there.
  • The stimulus did not reduce unemployment to 8% in year 1 because the damage to the economy was underestimated. True though that may be, is it anything to campaign on? An integral part of solving a problem is properly defining the problem. That’s a failure no matter how you cut it.
  • Sullivan writes: “Under Bush, new policies on taxes and spending cost the taxpayer a total of $5.07 trillion. Under Obama’s budgets both past and projected, he will have added $1.4 trillion in two terms.” It’s hard to believe Sullivan is making reference to Obama’s budgets. It’s been over 900 days since we’ve had a budget.
  • The core of Obamacare is the mandate, originally modeled by the conservative Heritage Foundation. Far from a government system, it funnels customers right into the private health insurance industry. Plus, as Sullivan points out, what could be more conservative than not allowing uninsured people to get a free ride in the ER?

After reading Sullivan’s defense of Obama’s domestic record, it’s clear that it’s a mixed bag. The great irony is that the prime objective of his GOP opponents is “to kill Obamacare” which has its roots in Nixonian politics and is not even close to a leftist solution.

Sullivan then moves onto foreign policy. Here, Obama’s opponents have to really stretch to find fault.

  • Obama got bin Laden with a method contrary to the advice of the VP and Sec of State. Given the choice of just bombing the site or going in with the Seals, Obama chose the latter and could verify that we did indeed get bin Laden. The Republican spin of course is that Obama owes it all to Bush. While still disputed, let’s concede that information gathered during the Bush years eventually led to bin Laden’s capture. The fact remains that Bush openly admitted that he no longer gave bin Laden any thought. Finding and killing public enemy #1 was not a priority. Obama did it, and rightly said during the recent State of the Union that for the first time in 20 years we are no longer under the threat of Osama bin Laden.
  • Sullivan points out that the “lead from behind” strategy in Libya is an improvement on the cowboy reputation we had pre-Obama. He neglects to add it is the smarter way to do business in a tough economy. Sullivan also rightly points out the wisdom of our handling of the Iran uprising in 2009. Had we engaged in covert or overt action to overthrow Ahmadinejad, the revolt would have been tied to the United States and would not have been seen as a freedom movement sparked from within. Contrast that with the overthrows in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya which were clearly seen as revolts from within.
  • Sullivan closed with the observation that liberal dissatisfaction with Obama is unwarranted based on the fact that ” Politifact recently noted that of 508 specific promises, a third had been fulfilled and only two have not had some action taken on them.”

I found Sullivan’s defense somewhat soft overall. Even though his article cited hard facts, it was buoyed with some emotional flights of fancy including his main premise that Obama plays a long game and that we are too stupid to look beyond short gains.  That impressed me as little more than wishful thinking.

Sadly, David Frum’s rebuttal was even worse.

David Frum’s Response to Sullivan: A Non-response

About one week after Sullivan’s article, David Frum wrote a response. Frum opens thusly:

Andrew Sullivan had good sport last week shooting fish in a barrel, rebutting the most unfair, the most intemperate, and the most flat-out crazy of the criticisms of President Obama. Now let’s move to the real debate.

In other words, Frum basically says, “I agree with everything Sullivan wrote and I’m going to write about something else entirely.” That, my friends, is not a response to Sullivan’s article. Now that the whole reason for writing the piece has been abandoned, let’s get under the hood of Frum’s analysis.

  • Frum starts by bemoaning the rise in Social Security disability claims in the past three years. But he fails to tie this trend to Obama specifically, or to any particular Obama policy. In fact, he basically concedes it is a consequence of a deep recession. So why did he go there in the first place?
  • Pointing to government expansion, Frum says, “In fact, hiring is up across the federal government, by 15 percent since 2007.” When you include the last two years of the Bush administration, you don’t prove anything about the Obama administration. I prefer to believe Sullivan’s numbers.
  • Frum discusses the folly of public work projects which increase dependency on government for hiring. My confusion with this argument is that construction workers don’t work for the government. They work for whatever company won the bid to do the government work. Then Frum contradicts himself by criticizing the stimulus: “People argue over the size of the president’s fiscal stimulus, but the real problem was its shape. Only about one dollar in eight out of the nearly $800 billion stimulus was devoted to the most effective form of anti-recession spending: infrastructure.” But wait a minute, I thought infrastructure jobs increased dependence on the government as an employer? David, make up your mind.
  • Then Frum takes his foreign policy shot: “During the campaign of 2008, Obama vowed a much bigger commitment to Afghanistan. He kept his promise. And what does the U.S. have to show for its redoubled war there? Precious little, if anything at all.By contrast, in Iraq the administration does have something to show for its efforts, including more oil production than at any time in the past 20 years, with more to come in the months ahead. Here the policy of almost total U.S. withdrawal threatens to destabilize all that has been accomplished, admittedly at severe cost.” Frum neglects to point out that Obama was basically cornered into committing more troops to Afghanistan than he wanted. He also neglects to admit that the war there is going poorly not because of Obama but because of insurmountable cultural issues. On Iraq, he accidentally gives credence to the blood for oil motive for war that many Iraq war opponents have always suspected. Then he conveniently omits the fact that Obama is abiding by Bush’s timetable. And most sadly, Frum seems in denial that Iraq is a no-win situation. We put in place a corrupt government incapable of running the place this year, next year, or any time in the future. Is Frum calling for endless occupation?

It’s hard to understand why Frum wrote the article in the first place since he fails to address Andrew Sullivan’s points and then fails to convincingly tie Barack Obama to any of the deficiencies he outlines.

Interestingly, the better critique of Sullivan’s article on an anti-Obama note comes from Cenk Uygur of The Young Turks, a blazing liberal. Cenk cites the lack of boldness in Obamacare, the preservation of Bush-era civil liberties violations and Obama’s total failure to change the atmosphere of Washington, D.C. , specifically where campaign finance is concerned.

More than anything, I think the two articles on Obama by Sullivan and Frum demonstrate how difficult it is to pin down Obama as a huge success or an abject failure. Obama has the unenviable task in November of proving a negative … “without me, things would have been much worse.” How do you prove a thing like that? The result is that Obama will have to convince the American people that, with his Republican opponent, things will definitely be a lot worse.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

Photo credit: Pete Souza, The Obama-Biden Transition Project

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256 thoughts on “The Case For/Against Barack Obama

  1. An entertaining read, Rutherford. A few points.

    “…risking any claim to objective analysis…”

    Any claim to objectivity was thrown away on the cover of the magazine.

    “It’s been over 900 1000 days since we’ve had a budget.”

    “Sullivan points out that the “lead from behind” strategy in Libya is an improvement on the cowboy reputation we had pre-Obama.”

    Did Sullivan make any mention of congressional approval, like how the “cowboy” got it and Obama didn’t, in this point?

    Did he mention in whose eyes is it an improvement? Did he offer any support for his claim that they think it is an improvement?

    Or is it just something he “tossed out there” like he tends to do?

    “Frum neglects to point out that Obama was basically cornered into committing more troops to Afghanistan than he wanted.”

    He’s the fucking Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States of America. It says so in the Constitution Obama used to lecture on. What more needs to be pointed out?

    He sends people to bomb sovereign nations and doesn’t even bother to request permission from The People (AKA Congress). And you’re going to snivel over him being “cornered” into a decision?

    “Then he conveniently omits the fact that Obama is abiding by Bush’s timetable.”

    Which means he also omitted the fact that Obama requested a longer stay and was denied. But then, most do omit that part….

  2. I don’t care what any Republican says, getting the king of stink-beards was a big deal.

    And, we can’t bitch about how they deposed of the stink-beard’s carcass, as there really hasn’t been much conspiratorial “he’s alive” talk about OBL.

    Dude is dead and the whole world knows the Navy Seals did it.

    Going with the SEALs was ballsy and sent an awesome message to the Arab world.

    It might have been the right call not to release the pictures, too. What’s the point? Personally, I already know what a dead Arab looks like.

    Libya is another feather in his cap. While we can still argue about the long term ramifications of the Libyan revolution, its hard to argue with the way we went about doing it. Considering the objective, it was clean. Yeah, I know I questioned some of this stuff a few months ago. i was against it before I was for it…uhh… never mind.

    I don’t care if Qadaffy showed us what’s underneath his chicken coup. Motherfucker needed to be whacked the minute he was no longer an asset. A baseball bat in his ass was the frosting on the cake, as gross as that sounds.

    Another notch on Obama’s club. At least it appears to be at this point in time.

    Obama’s only successes are killing motherfuckers.

    Obama don’t give a fuck if you are having breakfast with family or an American citizen, he will unleash a drone on your ass.

    In hindsight, to think Obama and his zombie followers couldn’t shut up about giving enemy POWs Miranda rights is pretty funny. They were so passionate too, the phonies.

    The economy is in dismal shape. We are still teetering with Depression or hyperinflation. Nobody with a free thinking brain buys the unemployment numbers. People are starting to wake up to the debt bomb. The only time Obama should ever touch the economy is when he can get away with massive lies. The latest add was perfect.

    There is only one way for Obama, the man who will go down in history as pushing America over the bankrupt cliff of no return, can win in September.

    Prime-time saber-rattling Iran. Now that’s his meal ticket. 8 o’clock PM on a random Thursday. Surprise speech. Sprinkle in about 3 or 4 more throughout a campaign that is simultaneously unleashing patriotic and hawkish political adds. Osama bin Laden’s pelt will hang nicely in the form of a political add.

    Obama should not debate the GOP runner. After all, he’s too busy.

    There you go Obama. Free advice from the Rabbit, you money spending freak.

  3. “Considering the objective, it was clean.”

    As Hucking mentions, it was also illegal. But, liberals, being the fake zombies they are, didn’t care. Hardly anybody did, when it came down to it.

  4. Ate Ethiopian food tonight. One of my favorites. Healthy, spicy, filling.

    Some Ethiopian music.

    The world is a crazy as place. Haile Selassie, the King of Ethiopia visits Jamaica where he is believed by many to be the returned messiah. The dude just kind of rolls with it, causing this weird cultural link between the two nation’s people that exists today.

  5. “Prime-time saber-rattling Iran. Now that’s his meal ticket. 8 o’clock PM on a random Thursday”

    It will be funny to hear the guy who ridiculed McCain’s “Bomb, bomb, bomb..bomb, bomb Iran” start singing the same tune.

  6. Poolman –

    re: King Crimson

    There has never been – nor will ever be – a voice as pure and beautiful as that of the young Greg Lake – originally of King Crimson, later of Emerson, Lake and Palmer. On some of their earlier albums, he looks like a little boy – pretty enough to be a very fetching little girl, really. So much talent so young.

    I heard ELP the other day and they are just awful. They play like they just don’t care. Lake’s voice is gone, gone, gone. Keith Emerson’s knuckles look like Quasimodo’s, but he still bangs out a great tune. (I have never heard talent like his; if I believed in such things, I’d say he made a pact with the Devil. LOL.) Carl Palmer has stayed in great shape and could play for any modern band – except that it would be an insult to his talent.

  7. After the Bush tax cuts federal revenues increased while the employment rate improved. Sometime around 2005, the New York Times wrote an article discussing the government’s surprise windfall. Unfortunately, Congress spent even more money than entered the government made.

    Before the 2008 election Charlie Gibson asked Obama why he wanted to raise the capital gains tax when the record showed lowering it often brought in more money. Obama said that might be true, but it wasn’t fair. Obama’s comment was predictive of the future.

    I like both songs. Thanks for posting. However, to say there is not and never will be a voice as pure as the young Greg Lake is to invite debate. I agree, he was one of the best.

    However, Sophia Karlsson with Jeg Venter especially when she starts to joik ranks with Lake, in my opinion. So does Sofia Jannok, who has already been linked to this blog.

  8. Pfesser,

    I saw ELP in concert after they released Brain Salad Surgery. It still ranks as one of the best concerts I have attended. I haven’t paid attention to anything they have done in recent years.

    Often it is better to remember these fellows in their prime. A very few performers retain the same quality in later years. Some have transitioned well with the times, but much of the time these performances are pitiful in comparison.

    But then we are a nostalgic bunch…

    .

  9. Rutherford,
    Before I get too far into commenting on your post could you please iterate on the following comment you made:

    “In other words, I agree with everything Sullivan wrote and I’m going to write about something else entirely. That, my friends, is not a response to Sullivan’s article. Now that the whole reason for writing the piece has been abandoned, let’s get under the hood of Frum’s analysis.”

    So you do agree completely with Sullivan’s love letter? What are you writing about that is “something else entirely”? Are you quoting someone else? Is this not a compare vs contrast post?

    Help me out here as I’m a bit confused.

  10. Egypt’s ruling SCAF is raiding NGO offices and holding Americans with threats of imprisonment.

    But hey…let’s keep quiet about that and keep sniveling about the Muslim Brotherhood, instead….

  11. Help me out here as I’m a bit confused.

    Understandably. As I reread it in your question I see how I could have phrased it better.

    What I was saying was that FRUM himself has basically admitted at the outset of his article that he agrees with everything Sullivan has said, which then makes his entire effort to rebut Sullivan moot. Frum writes: “Now let’s move to the real debate.” In other words, Frum thinks there are matters not covered by Sullivan that need analysis. But again, that is not a rebuttal of Sullivan.

    That was my point, not that I agreed with everything Sullivan said but that basically Frum did.

    Did that help any? I should have put I agree with everything Sullivan wrote and I’m going to write about something else entirely. in quotes. In fact, after I finish writing this comment, I will do just that. Thanks!

  12. WTF is that about???

    The ladder lyrics always meant “get me out of here” or “help me climb out of here” to me. But I am used to ladders to climb up and out of places.

  13. Sullivan’s article reads like Obama’s resume and you know how resumes always look good on paper. Paper however doesn’t stand up to fire and water. The mortgage industry was based on nothing but paper.

    Frum’s reply didn’t go far enough as a rebuttal, more smoke than fire.

    “Obama’s foreign policy …. eschews short-term political hits for long-term strategic advantage” (Sullivan) Add domestic policy to that statement and you have the Obama presidency, all about re-election from the beginning.

    “But in rejecting the extremism of some critics, we shouldn’t race to the opposite and equally invalid extreme of denying all criticism” A good point made by Frum but I wish he had stated more facts.

    ” More than anything, I think the two articles on Obama by Sullivan and Frum demonstrate how difficult it is to pin down Obama as a huge success or an abject failure” (Rutherford). It is difficult to pin down Obama which is the problem. Maybe it’s that community organizer thingy!

  14. “Sullivan rightly points out” the wisdom of how we handled the iranian Green uprising of 2009. Had we helped, our covert aid would have tarnished the revolution and discredited it.

    A coalition openly provided material aid to the Libyan rebels similar home-grown movement, and they owe their victory to us. Both were apparently domestic revolts, and yet it was fine to help one and not the other.

    That logic doesn’t make sense to me, unless it is fine to say “I beat my dog except when it is wrong to do so.”

    The unemployment rate during Bush’s administration was as low as 4.5%. Obama would envy 6%. What did Bush do that Obama didn’t do? And don’t tell me it was because the economy was worse than we knew. Please give me something more creative.

    I agree with Ragi. about the community organizer thing.Obama was also hard to pin down in the Illinois State legislature.

  15. LOL R @ 12. I actually had the same thought, perhaps the worst lyric I have on vinyl. I was lucky enough to see ELP and Yes in their prime. We would debate who was the better keyboardist, Wakeman or Emerson. I pulled for Emerson. But the most imprssive was Palmer, his solo on Tank was uber human.

    I saw the Moody Blues years later on the “Senior Tour”. They held up pretty good.

  16. “What did Bush do that Obama didn’t do?”

    Bush was handed a surplus by Clinton, Bush handed Obama record deficits. Bush fought two wars off budget. Bush passed medicare part b without funding, blowing an even larger hole in the budget. Bush cut taxes for the richest Americans without paying for it. When Bush left office we were losing 780,000 jobs a month. We are currently adding jobs slowly but at least at a rate above 100,000 a month. The economy was in recession and still shrinking when Bush left. The economy is no longer receding and is now growing. And of course, there is the Dow. Under Bush it went from 10,600 down to 8100. Under Obama it has gone up from 8100 to 12,660.

    Under Bush we had eight years of tax cuts and deregulation that led to the worst financial disaster since the Great Depression. This is relevant because it’s the exact same platform of the ass clown parade participants currently looking under each other’s underwear in the Republican’t primary.

    If you enjoy a plummeting Dow and losing 780,000 jobs a month, by all means, vote Republican’t.

  17. What deregulation under Bush do you tie to the melt down?

    Considering the actions of the Federal Reserve and their Quantitative Easing scams, I can’t believe your main defense of Obama seems to be the Dow. That’s your thing. The Dow Jones.

    Have you seen the petty volume? The volatility?

    Just so I get you, last week was a feather in Obama’s cap? The Dow got frothy due to inflation fears. Gold and silver went nuts. The classic inflation play. Shit aint healthy, if you ask me.

    What would you do if the Dow crashes this year? Not vote for Obama?

    Don’t you see that we bought a good chunk of the bump in the Dow with the sweat and toil of our children?

    Are you cool with making little kids pay for all of our sins…literally?

  18. thor @ 22.

    I have seen the Moodys twice and they were phenomenal. The last time was in DC three springs ago. Graeme Edge had just turned 69. They had three original members of the band and several youngsters, including a young woman who shredded the violin, a keyboardist who was really, really good and a drummer who filled in the blank spots for the aging Edge. I was trying to “keep the faith” and just hoped they wouldn’t embarrass themselves. They did NOT.

    I always loved Edge’s name, Graeme, and named one of my sons Graeme.

    Wow. So long ago. Lotsa dope smoked in the little house my roomies and I rented – to the tune of “Nights in White Satin,” let me tell ya…

  19. Thor, the sun is shining. My foot is wet. You just told me its raining.

    I’m glad the Moody Blues are still good. Ten or fifteen years ago, a reporter asked them why they were still singing. One answered, “because we don’t know how to do anything else.'”

    Thanks to the service, my then future wife did not see me for nearly two years. Then, we were together, and we quickly got married. Two months later, I was sent away. The morning I left, while she was at work, I put a mushy taped love note and “Nights in White Satin” under her pillow. Then, I included “You Were on my Mind” by the We Five.

    “so long ago.’ Partying with you must have been fun.

  20. I’ve seen the Moody Blues more then ten times in concert. By far, more then any other band.

    My father-in-law is a massive fan. He has probably seen them more then 40 times.

    Well, my father-in-law is also a huge prick to everybody and suffers from Alzheimer’s disease, possibly from the decades of cocaine and drinking (he just turned 60).

    Apparently, I’m the only one he can get along with.

    He can’t really navigate a concert, find his seat, etc.

    So, I take him. It’s certainly better then golfing with him. That’s a nightmare.

    I find it amazing he’s even a fan. He’s not the kind of guy you would think could relate to any kind of artsy fartsy stuff. The Moody Blues are pretty deep, actually. He’s vile. Total bigot (although funny one). He was a union rail road man (a powerful one) and as crass as it gets. But he loves his Moody Blues.

    Personally, I like this album the most:

  21. Unbelievable Numbnutz.

    GDP growing? Not with Obozo’s debt and regulatory drogues.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57367498/gdp-report-austerity-is-stifling-the-recovery/

    http://econintersect.com/wordpress/?p=12503

    _____

    Bush fought two wars off budget and Obama didn’t? Do tell:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/07/28/us-afghanistan-idUSTRE66O1G220100728

    Maybe he should hock his Nobel Peace Prize and throw it in the kitty of unfunded expenditures.

    ____

    “Bush passed medicare part b without funding, blowing an even larger hole in the budget.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/new-study-shows-health-insurance-premium-spikes-in-every-state/2011/11/16/gIQAhBl7SN_story.html

    Is Obamacare “funded?” Obamacare takes $500 billion out of Medicare and funds Obamacare. To make it look like they didn’t increase the federal deficit the so-called “savings” from Medicare offset new spending resulting from the health care bill.

    So, what the hell are you talking about? Calling it a different name?

    ______

    Which policies resulted in job growth in the private sector (we know public since we paid for those ourselves)?

    DOW is your yardstick? Are you kidding?

    Get back in your petri dish.

  22. DR –

    I love that album too. My roomies and I listened to the Moodies pretty much every day for three years.

    Hayward later did “Forever Autumn” for Jeff Wayne’s “War of the Worlds.” The narrator is Richard Burton. I have the CD set and it just sets me free every time I listen to it.

    Here is a live performance. This is IMHO as good as it gets:

  23. Tigre, that one is a classic.

    I don’t know if this is true or not, but I read that the Avalanches might be one of the most influential modern bands of all time.

    Supposedly, they set some sort of legal precedent when it comes to using samples. That album literally is one massive collage of thousands of samples.

    The article sited two other albums that changed the legality of using samples.

    Beastie Boys’s Paul’s Boutique and Beck’s Odelay.

  24. Huck, the Avalanches ain’t exactly music, so I won’t feel so bad. It’s just creative sampling. But if you don’t find the Frontier Psychiatry amusing, then you can just go back to your Bruce Springsteen collection.

    Moody Blues? ELP? Got enough Halcion coursing through your veins? Back to the nursing home with ya Grandpa. The meandering modal shit is gonna help ease your descent into coma. 😆

  25. “Got enough Halcion coursing through your veins? Back to the nursing home with ya Grandpa.”

    Don’t need it, Whippersnapper. I have this:

    Remember, you can’t spell CRAP without RAP. And by the way, what “genre” – if you’ll excuse the term – was that other shit? Does that fall under the “Talking” umbrella?

  26. Man, I want to brag about how I hustled 400 bucks Friday. 10 minutes, 400 bucks. But, I just can’t do it online, although I broke no laws.

    Rutherford, in an emergency, it would be impossible to scrub the Dead Rabbit from cyber existence, wouldn’t it?

  27. I have found that a great way to discover great music is to go back to the 70s and 80s and look for music that was panned by the critics.

    “John Kelman of All About Jazz noted that an “overbearing sense of self-importance turned ELP from one of the 1970’s most exciting new groups into the definition of masturbatory excess and self-aggrandizement in only a few short years.”

  28. “Remember, you can’t spell CRAP without RAP. And by the way, what “genre” – if you’ll excuse the term – was that other shit? Does that fall under the “Talking” umbrella?”

    No way, man. I love older rap music. Even some of the new stuff. Grew up on it. There is incredible creativity in that.

    if you think about it, “sampling” other people’s music defines rock music.

    There really isn’t a genre of music I don’t like outside of show tunes and 80’s heavy metal. Although i love G’nR, does that count?

  29. “Remember, you can’t spell CRAP without RAP. And by the way, what “genre” – if you’ll excuse the term – was that other shit?”

    😆 No argument here.

    I don’t know what it’s called. Rabbit? It’s just sampling from what I can tell. That’s why I called it “creative sampling.”

    As R knows, I am a former jazz musician. Be bop. But when I was younger, I thought a lot of the fusion was fun. And it was good for getting chicks.

    Rock is all about energy. It doesn’t take a lot, but when it’s really driving it can be great.

    Never did get the GnR though. Still think it’s the most overrated shit around. Oh, and Slash is a seriously shitty guitar player.

  30. Thor when it comes to deregulation, wasn’t Glass Steagall undone on Bill Clinton’s watch? I think if any example of disastrous deregulation could be cited, that would be it.

  31. “John Kelman of All About Jazz noted that an “overbearing sense of self-importance turned ELP from one of the 1970′s most exciting new groups into the definition of masturbatory excess and self-aggrandizement in only a few short years.”

    Right. I see he really made HIS mark on music. How well-known are they, and how well-known is he?

    What was his name again?

  32. “No way, man. I love older rap music. Even some of the new stuff. Grew up on it. There is incredible creativity in that.”

    Creativity? Reallllllllyyyyy?

    Yep, there’s a name for rap. It’s called “talking.”

  33. Another 7 minutes of my life wasted. I’m good with minimalist art, but WTF? Was there a point to 52, Rutherford? “Performed” indeed. What college did you attend again?

    Reminds me of “The Emperor’s New Clothes”.

    At least I wasn’t the one stuck with the piano and hall rental. 😀

  34. Frank Zappa and Avalanches?

    Uh, not even kinda.

    Zappa was a compose and arranger. A real one at that. His death was a real loss.

    (incidentally, two off his grandchildren go to school with my kids)

  35. Hey but the stock market kicked ass.

    R, Thor says you should vote Obama in because of the Dow. How did your stocks work out for you the last 3 years? Or, did you have to cash out, like half the people I know.

    Thor, gold is up 100% since Obama took office. Out of curiosity, does that mean anything to you?

    Should we credit Obama with that too? And if so, what does that mean?

  36. “What deregulation under Bush do you tie to the melt down?” – DR

    I would say the 2004 SEC lowering of capitalization requirements along with allowing the biggest banks to determine their own net capital, effectively increasing some firms’ leverage positions as high as 30:1. Glass-Steagall (thank you Bill and Newt) unlocked the door. SEC actions in the early 2000’s blew the doors wide open.

    BTW, I put the Dow stuff in there just to rile these guys. They bite every time. 😉

    All that aside, is someone going to explain to me why losing 780,000 jobs a month reflects awesome economic stewardship while adding jobs 23 months in a row is a “disaster”?

  37. Rutherford needs to hurry and write another piece. This music sucks….

    LOL … Huck I guess my tastes are a bit more “liberal” than yours. I kinda like this stuff. But then, I’m a fan of Laurie Anderson’s “O Superman”

    “So hold me Mom in your long arms
    So hold me Mom in your long arms
    In your automatic arms
    Your electronic arms, in your arms
    So hold me Mom in your long arms
    Your petrochemical arms
    Your military arms
    In your electronic arms”

  38. Rutherford, in an emergency, it would be impossible to scrub the Dead Rabbit from cyber existence, wouldn’t it?

    Virtually impossible. I hope your Dad-in-law doesn’t know any hit-men. 🙂

  39. Never did get the GnR though.

    I still love it when GnR hit the “where do we go, where do we go now, where do we go?” section of Sweet Child o Mine. Damn that’s a great f*cking way to end a song!!!!

  40. Hey Tigre I didn’t remember your playing jazz but I do seem to recall your driving rock bands around for gigs. Didn’t you once tell me how the Cars really didn’t get along with each other that well?

    Hey, if we’re on jazz …. Oscar Peterson’s “You Look Good to Me” Sheeeeeut!!!!

  41. lol…..R…..was that real?

    Real as hell. When I was a senior in college taking a music survey class, the instructor came out and said she was going to play us a piece called 4’33” by John Cage. Then she sat down and did just about nothing for four minutes and 33 seconds. There was nervous laughter in the lecture hall. When she finally got up from the piano bench, we applauded wildly.

    The whole idea was that Cage wanted to force the audience to be in the moment and absorb their surroundings enhanced by silence.

    Wild stuff!

  42. Zappa was a compose and arranger. A real one at that. His death was a real loss.

    Hey no slight intended. I’m a Zappa fan. I just meant the avant-garde feel of the Avalanche clips that were posted reminded me of Zappa. He was inventive.

  43. How did your stocks work out for you the last 3 years? Or, did you have to cash out, like half the people I know.

    I cashed out a couple of months after I got laid off in 2007 and I stayed out of the market thereafter. Folks without a steady income have no business gambling in any form or fashion.

    Truth is, my heart was so invested in my trading and particularly in my longer term holdings that I literally cried as I clicked the “sell” button on each stock. My wife had to console me like I was a two-year old.

  44. All that aside, is someone going to explain to me why losing 780,000 jobs a month reflects awesome economic stewardship while adding jobs 23 months in a row is a “disaster”?

    Damn good question. That is the one economic graph that Obama-haters just love to ignore. It’s one of his strongest talking points IMHO.

  45. I have to take Rabbit’s side on old-school rap. The current stuff is pure manure. But some of the earlier stuff is pretty complicated and clever. It’s also interesting to see how non-rap groups take the genre and do fun stuff with it. Take Barenaked Ladies for example:

  46. “LOL … Huck I guess my tastes are a bit more “liberal” than yours. I kinda like this stuff. But then, I’m a fan of Laurie Anderson’s “O Superman””

    I was just being obnoxious. If you guys like it, that’s all that matters.

    Enjoy.

  47. “Ah. Thor got his playbook from DWS.” ET

    Yeah, like I waste my time watching fox news. She does owe me some royalties though. 😉 Now, back to the Republican’t math, errr -780,000 jobs good, + 150,000 jobs bad. Recession good, growth bad.

  48. “Now, back to the Republican’t math, errr -780,000 jobs good, + 150,000 jobs bad. Recession good, growth bad.”

    Now lets have some Democrat math.

    Spending $5,246,666 per job = good

    ($787,000,000,000 / 150,000 = 5246666)

    That’s one of the many economic graphs that Obama-lovers love to ignore.

  49. Like I said, 1979 all over again. Diminish the liberal secularists, form alliance with the military, take over the country.

    Do we really think the SCAF is the only problem? But wait a minute, how could this happen?! I thought the Brotherhood and the SCAF were bitter enemies! Why would they form a pragmatic alliance to secure power?

    Whew, at least we know they’d NEVER form an alliance with any other Islamist blocs to secure control of the government. Nah, that’ll never happen. Why? Because they said so….

    CAIRO (AP) – Muslim Brotherhood supporters and secular protesters hurled bottles and rocks at each other and got into fistfights in Cairo’s Tahrir Square on Friday as their political differences boiled over at a rally by tens of thousands marking an anniversary in the uprising that toppled Hosni Mubarak.

    The scuffles, in which there were no reports of injury, were the first time the two sides have come to blows over resentments that have been rising between them since they worked together during the 18 days of protests against Mubarak a year ago.

    Now they are locked in a competition to shape the transition. The differences do not focus on the Brotherhood’s religious agenda—though it worries many in the other camp. Instead, the divisions are over the military, which have ruled since Mubarak’s fall, and ultimately whether dramatic change will be brought to Egypt’s long autocratic system.

    The “revolutionaries,” the leftist and secular activists who launched the anti-Mubarak revolt, now demand the ruling generals quit power immediately and have vowed protests to force them out. The Brotherhood, meanwhile, has vaulted to political domination by winning the largest bloc in the new parliament and has been willing to let the military follow its own timetable for stepping down.

    The revolutionaries suspect the Brotherhood will strike a deal with the ruling generals—giving them a future say in politics to ensure the Brotherhood’s hold on authority and influence on the writing of a new constitution, effective shelving serious reform. They also bristle over what they see as the Brotherhood’s attempts to monopolize the political scene.

    Nevertheless, the two sides have been uneasily trying to share Tahrir Square this week since a giant rally Wednesday marking the Jan. 25 start of the anti-Mubarak protests. But on a new rally Friday, tempers broke.

    “Out, out, out!” revolutionaries chanted at the Brotherhood’s main stage in the square, holding their shoes in the air in a sign of contempt at a line of Brothers forming a human chain in front of the podium.

    “Dogs of the military council,” others chanted at the Brothers.

    The political differences have translated into a dispute over the very meaning of the anniversary. The Brotherhood has presented this week as a celebration of the revolution’s successes—particularly their own parliament victory. The secular groups say there is nothing to celebrate when so many demands of the revolution are left unachieved and killings of protesters have gone unpunished.

    The fights erupted over the Brotherhood’s giant stage in the square, bristling with loudspeakers. Some protesters complain the Brotherhood sought to drown out other protesters by blaring religious anthems, Quranic recitations and music.

    Others were angered a celebratory banner on the stage proclaiming, “Holiday of the Revolution.” Another note of triumphalism that irritated many was a song played repeatedly celebrating the military’s victories in the 1973 war with Israel and proclaiming “may the victory be bigger” in the revolution.

  50. “Damn good question. That is the one economic graph that Obama-haters just love to ignore. It’s one of his strongest talking points IMHO.”

    Riddle me this, Numbnutz.

    How did Obama when it comes to employment under his own standards?

    How many of those ore government, non-permanent, or underemployment?

    How much did these jobs “cost” us Numbnutz?

    God you can be thick.

    As Hoover used to say, “Prosperity is Just Around the Corner.” 😆

    (thaks for that one Tex).

  51. “Hey Tigre I didn’t remember your playing jazz but I do seem to recall your driving rock bands around for gigs.”

    Yeah. It was the least time you posted Oscar Peterson as a matter of fact.

    The Cars weren’t a happy a group. And they (Easton) were the shittiest tippers ever.

  52. re: personal habits of rock groups.

    My first instrument flight instructor was an old guy named Orrin …..xxxxxx. He had been a charter pilot for a group in the ‘seventies called the Ohio Players, who were fairly famous at that time, and complete druggies, by all reports.

    He was an older guy and, while he had no problem with people smoking dope, he didn’t want them doing it while they were flying in his airplane. He had no experience with pot, and in the tight confines of an aircraft was afraid he might be affected by the smoke and screw up his piloting skills.

    But all his cajoling was to no avail; they just ignored him.

    ************

    Fast forward. It was a dark and stormy night. He picked up the band after a concert and as soon as they got on board his plane, out came the doobies. He had decide that the next time would be IT, so he filed a flight plan for 18,000’ in his non-pressurized airplane and proceeded to climb, pulling the end off the nasal oxygen cannula and sticking the end of the hose in his mouth where they couldn’t see it.

    By the time he reached 17,000, thanks to the marijuana and the low ambient oxygen levels at that altitude, they were OUT. All of them. He flew on for another two hours. When he landed, they all revived and began writhing around, holding their heads and complaining about splitting headaches.

    He told them, “You sonsofbitches, that was the last flight – and by the way – no charge.” It was worth it.

  53. Yeah G, I saw a similar article about Paul over the weekend and almost posted it for Poolman’s benefit. Thanks for saving me the trouble. This is a case where I think the baby has to be thrown out with the bathwater.

  54. Yeah. It was the least time you posted Oscar Peterson as a matter of fact.

    The Cars weren’t a happy a group. And they (Easton) were the shittiest tippers ever.

    LOL this blog has a way of returning to old themes. Hell, Tex accused me of posting the Hannibal Lecter analogy at least half a dozen times and I plead guilty. 🙂

    Easton LOOKS like a crappy tipper. Dude seems to wear an attitude. I wonder with the 20 year hiatus if they got along any better putting together “Move Like This”, their album from last year.

    One of favs from that album:

  55. Riddle me this, Numbnutz.

    Now I don’t know whether this was directed at the original numbnutz (Thor) or the numbnutz who provided support (me) but I view this as a matter of perspective.

    Do you really think the dude who gets the job gives a flying fig how much it cost to create the job? That’s assuming your and Huck’s math doesn’t have a logical flaw …. which it does. Since when did the entire 787 billion go toward job creation? One of the criticisms of the stimulus was it wound up going into some pork barrel stuff.

  56. PF, Orrin’s stunt sounds pretty dangerous to me. BTW, any self respecting fan of 70’s music knows the Ohio Players. From their hit “Fire”

    “I’m gonna choke
    From the smoke
    When you tighten up my stroke”

    Kinda funny lyric when you consider that airplane story.

    This is a great one by them starring “Granny” — it’s called Funky Worm

  57. That’s assuming your and Huck’s math doesn’t have a logical flaw …. which it does. Since when did the entire 787 billion go toward job creation? One of the criticisms of the stimulus was it wound up going into some pork barrel stuff.” – R

    How does this help your argument?

  58. I remember the scream from Rollercoaster by the Ohio Players. Apparently that has been debunked, but still gives me that eerie chilly feeling whenever I hear it.

    Rumor was someone was murdered in the room next door and the screams were recorded during the song by accident.

    Listening again, I don’t know who’s telling the truth. It sure sounds real enough.

  59. “Do you really think the dude who gets the job gives a flying fig how much it cost to create the job?”

    No. And what difference does it make what the worker thinks, especially if he;s a government worker?

    Of course you guys think growing government is “job creation.” 🙄

    So, my question was: “how does Obama stack up against his own standards?” So far, no response. I think even he aid he would be a one-termer.

    I am amazed that you guys consider Obama’s alleged “job creation” a success. But you may keep chanting it — most people just aren’t that dumb — including Obama. Did you notice that Obama barely mentioned Obamacre or what you tout as his landmark success, the Stimulus bill, in his campaign speech. . . er. . . State of the Union address? That’s because those are losing topics for him.

    I love that you are so willing to drink his bath water you can’t wait to pass along the bullshit Obama himself won’t try.

    p.s. I meant the Numbnutz comment of course. . . by proxy. So please respond. Numbnutz usually runs after dropping a load (unsupportable assertions).

  60. R, how do you like the global cooling trend? I pointed it out before. Crickets. Still think Polar Bears are floating around on melting ice cubes? 😆 😆

    The unfortunate part is that it is you that is you and your MSNBC crowd that are “anti-science.” Not one shred of critical thinking or examination of the subject.

    What fascinates me the most is just why that is.

  61. Ohio Players were the shit!

    R, since you are a fan of the funk, I have to let you know that backstage after a funk show I spent a little time and had a few cocktails with Bootsy Collins. A real trip. I’ll never forget it. As far as I’m concerned, he’s the godfather of funk bass.

  62. Magilla and Rutherford,

    Sorry, I got no problem with Ron Paul’s 20 year old publications, whether he knew what was in them or not. I would think he knew. Anything that goes out in my name, I’m aware of the content.

    When this stuff was published, we were in a different climate politically and socially. Things that were acceptable then are not considered PC today. Many of my beliefs 20 years ago are not the same today. Hell, I was a radical in-your-face anti-abortion protester. Rabbit would have been proud. 😉

    Besides, in this “post-racial” society we live in, there seems to be MORE inert racial tension. Often we can’t debate a simple black and white issue (pun intended) without someone calling out racism – or reverse racism (which doesn’t even make sense). It is still a major political ploy, in the same way the abortion issue is.

    I prefer to call a spade a spade. (Which, btw, was not originally intended as a racist reference.)

  63. Stormfront speaks, and what does he say? Its OK.

    Bemoaning the racial card when he and his are throwing it right and left- classic. The epitome of Epic Fail.

    Piss Pot’s a racist, just as surely as the crack pot Ron Paul…

  64. Tigre, I don’t have the figures at hand but gov’t jobs have shrunk while private sector have grown. Sorry to burst your bubble.

    Gorilla, the pork barrel comment helps my argument mathematically. It means a smaller numerator. Does it help my argument in terms of government being broken? No.

  65. Tigre the reason the phrase “global warming” was abandoned in favor of “climate change” was to help neanderthals like the folks with whom you align.

    In the middle of frickin Winter, it’s gonna be 49 degrees here tomorrow. That’s f*cked up, In October, my old home town had a blizzard. I am telling you, Mother Nature has gone manic-depressive and while I can’t swear we (humans) pissed her off I think it is still worth investigation.

  66. Tigre, shame on me but I’ve only become aware of Bootsy within the past four or five years.

    My bigoted black parents didn’t let a lot of soul/funk music in the house. 🙂 (Seriously, James Brown was persona non grata growing up. I bought my James Brown boxed set in my 20’s after I moved out.)

    Yet oddly enough … they let me listen to “I Love the Dead” by Alice Cooper. Go figure.

  67. Gorilla, the pork barrel comment helps my argument mathematically. It means a smaller numerator. Does it help my argument in terms of government being broken? No.” – R

    No R, it doesn’t. It means that the cost per job is even higher than you thought because you can’t really differentiate between what the stimulus was spent on either. Just take the “green jobs” which seem to average about $5,000,000 per job. That’s a positive how?

  68. Poolman, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Some of that Paul newsletter stuff was wrong regardless of the times … besides we’re not talking the 1800’s here … I think we’re talking the late 1990’s.

    The only thin leverage you might have on this point is that some are willing to overlook Mitt Romney’s virtual 180 from views he expressed 15 years ago.

  69. Last week the MB was going to team up with the Salafists.

    This week the MB is going to team up with SCAF.

    Tune in next week to see what monsters the MB is going to team up with in order to bring evil rule to Egypt.

  70. “Do you really think the dude who gets the job gives a flying fig how much it cost to create the job? That’s assuming your and Huck’s math doesn’t have a logical flaw …. which it does. Since when did the entire 787 billion go toward job creation? One of the criticisms of the stimulus was it wound up going into some pork barrel stuff.”

    So what?

    What was the bill intended for?

    Who signed it?

    This excuse is shittier than DR’s kid after a long nap.

  71. “You guys are such morons. Half the stimulus was TAX CUTS. The EXACT remedy you guys tout. Too easy. OWS DC eviction in five minutes.”

    Great. So cut my figure by 50% and then defend the math.

    Talk about easy…..

  72. Poolman, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Some of that Paul newsletter stuff was wrong regardless of the times … besides we’re not talking the 1800′s here … I think we’re talking the late 1990′s.

    I think 92 was the timeframe… regardless. I don’t want to be held to my past after I have repented and made restitution. Ron Paul has apologized and acknowledged the wrongness of those publications. He obviously has appealed to plenty of folks looking for real change, even black folks..

  73. The Pizzlies are coming!

    “The near-record ice-melt followed higher-than-average summer temperatures, but without the unusual weather conditions that contributed to the extreme melt of 2007. “Atmospheric and oceanic conditions were not as conducive to ice loss this year, but the melt still neared 2007 levels,” said NSIDC scientist Walt Meier. “This probably reflects loss of multiyear ice in the Beaufort and Chukchi seas as well as other factors that are making the ice more vulnerable.”

    Joey Comiso, senior scientist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., said the continued low minimum sea ice levels fits into the large-scale decline pattern that scientists have watched unfold over the past three decades.

    “The sea ice is not only declining, the pace of the decline is becoming more drastic,” Comiso said. “The older, thicker ice is declining faster than the rest, making for a more vulnerable perennial ice cover.” – NASA (Newt’s favorite government agency, unless you count Freddie Mac as a government agency.)

    http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2011-ice-min.html

    Run? Never.

  74. I think we are going into a mini ice age. When I first came on this board, I acknowledged that and even linked to a scientific study. The earth goes through these trends and humans don’t matter.

  75. “Great. So cut my figure by 50% and then defend the math.” H

    Man, I was willing to let you off easy, but you asked for it. First of all, you divided the stimulus by the monthly average increase, not the total jobs added. You also did not calculate the future value of these jobs year to year nor the value of these dollars turned over multiple times in the economy, some of which actually returns to the Federal coffers as tax revenue.

    Republican’ts had complete control of the House, the Senate and the White House for six years. Barely a year after that reign of terror ended, with Bush still in the Oval Office, the house of cards began crumbling. You can continue to blame the man who was a junior Senator from Illinois at the time, but it just makes you look stupid.

    Now, explain why the economic model that produces a recession and an economy that sheds 780,000 jobs a month is superior to one that takes the economy out of recession and consistently adds jobs.

  76. Last week the MB was going to team up with the Salafists.

    This week the MB is going to team up with SCAF.

    Tune in next week to see what monsters the MB is going to team up with in order to bring evil rule to Egypt.” – Captain UN

    At what point do you recognize that you’ve been assed out wrong on this?

    Do you remember this?

    Comment #173 ”Yeah by SCAF-backed thugs. We know all about it and it has already pretty much been proven to be SCAF trying to start sectarian shit to justify why it needs to stay in power. Just like their boss did.” – Huck

    You said this immediately after and before defending the Brotherhood. Now I’ve shown something that conflicts with your narrative of Egypt, so you come up with another strawman. And by-the-by, who’s to say that these “SCAF-backed thugs” are not Brotherhood supporters? Doesn’t seem to be mutually exclusive considering that the Brotherhood since day 1 following Mubarak’s fall have interfered and mitigated the liberal sectarian efforts to politically capitalize on their revolution.

    I didn’t blame the SCAF, you did.

    I didn’t defend the Brotherhood, you did.

    I’m not the one accusing the Brotherhood of collaborating with the SCAF, the liberal sectarians who actually started the revolution in the first place are.

    You’ve been pretty much fucked up on every angle of this since the word GO. I believe all of them are fucked up, and I’ve said as much since the beginning. In fact, the only thing I’ve pushed for is US foreign policy interests- something you’ve conveniently abandoned Mr. Diplomat. Sometimes the Devil you know is better than the devil you don’t know, except that we knew exactly who the alternative was and to daydream that some other out comes was possible is quite frankly naive.

  77. You can continue to blame the man who was a junior Senator from Illinois at the time, but it just makes you look stupid.

    Now, explain why the economic model that produces a recession and an economy that sheds 780,000 jobs a month is superior to one that takes the economy out of recession and consistently adds jobs. – Thor

    Actually, we’ve been blaming the former senior Senator of Connecticut (Dodd) and the Representative from Massachusetts (Frank). The credit bubble started before Bush was ever in office- that honor goes to William ‘BJ’ Clinton. Underemployment is at an all time high. Now, you can ‘have fries with that’ all you want, but this Administration by every historical metric has been a complete and abject economic failure. Period. There is no debate to this because you cannot point to a single solitary economic metric in which this Administration has surpassed any other. Get Obama’s short & curly’s out of your teeth and focus on real economic data, not the mind-numbing meme that gets espoused on MSDNC.

  78. “Tigre the reason the phrase “global warming” was abandoned in favor of “climate change” was to help neanderthals like the folks with whom you align.”

    Bull-fuckin-shit. It was term to allow the dumbshits with whom you aligh to explain away the anomolies like. . . WE ARE IN A COOLING TREND!

    Gawd.

  79. “You guys are such morons. Half the stimulus was TAX CUTS. The EXACT remedy you guys tout. Too easy. OWS DC eviction in five minutes.”

    Are you a real person?

    Did you think before typing this?

    What is your position on tax increases Numbnutz?

    Are you now saying tax cuts create jobs?

  80. Poolman, you might be interested in the Mail on line’s article, “Forget global warming-it’s cycle 25 we need to worry about, (and if NASA scientists are right the Thames will be freezing over again.) The Climate Gate scientists worried that the weather wasn’t matching their models. It is why they believed they needed to “hide the decline.”

    The world has been warming for the past forty years ,but the rate of increase has stabilized for the past fifteen years. Many scientists are wed to human caused global warming because they based their incomes, careers and reputations on what they claim to be established fact. They can’t have their conclusions questioned.

  81. El Tigre –

    Agreed. There is something wholly un-scientific about all the scientific proof about global “warming.” We know the earth has heated and cooled many, many times – well before man made as much CO2 as a buffalo fart. (Can you say, “Ice Age” and “Mississippian Period?” The atmosphere is just a little blue sliver of gas on a really, really big sphere of molten rock with a little crust floating on the top. To suggest that that little blue sliver does much to control the temperature strains credulity, frankly.

    To my eye, the “scientists” have done what I criticise religion for doing: start with the answer and work backward. Take the (temporarily) increasing global air temperatures and then try to find a story that supports it – but it must be a story that implicates man’s greed in there somewhere, and supports the socialist agenda that academics take in with their mother’s milk. Christ on a bicycle…cut me a break.

  82. “I am telling you, Mother Nature has gone manic-depressive and while I can’t swear we (humans) pissed her off I think it is still worth investigation.”

    Agreed. Let’s investigate rather than castigate and implement ridiculous carbon regulations (C &T) that would destroy our economy.

    Care to join me in that, or are you going to continue claiming it’s settled science? Or better yet, “what’s wrong with reducing pollution?”

    Thor still thinks Polar Bears are dying becuase not enough people drive a Prius.

  83. “We’re well into the second decade of the pause,” said Benny Peiser, director of the Global Warming Policy Foundation. ‘If we don’t see convincing evidence of global warming by 2015, it will start to become clear whether the models are bunk. And if they are the implications for some scientists could be very serious.'”

  84. ctually, we’ve been blaming the former senior Senator of Connecticut (Dodd) and the Representative from Massachusetts (Frank). The credit bubble started before Bush was ever in office- that honor goes to William ‘BJ’ Clinton.

    So, the crash can be blamed on the administration before Bush but the slow recovery must be blamed on the President in office currently? Hmmm.

  85. Holy crap, I agree with PF at 115. Now if that ain’t proof there’s no God. . . 😆

    I would wager anyone that in a decade global warming will be viewed as the biggest and costliest hoax ever carried out.

  86. What is your position on tax increases Numbnutz?

    I think payroll tax cuts that go into the hands of low and middle income families get spent, not hoarded. I think tax cuts for the upper crust go into their pockets or the Cayman islands.

    I think the ten years of Bush tax cuts have shown that. Now, is it really better to lose 780,000 jobs a month or add jobs every month?

  87. I asked two questions at number twenty. They are simple questions with answers requiring nothing of stock markets or economic theft for the rich. Would someone please answer?

  88. I would wager anyone that in a decade global warming the Federal Reserve will be viewed as the biggest and costliest hoax ever carried out.

  89. “Now, is it really better to lose 780,000 jobs a month or add jobs every month?”

    I don’t get the question. What is the cost of these so-called jobs Numbnutz?

  90. “I think tax cuts for the upper crust go into their pockets or the Cayman islands.”

    Then why are capital gains versus individual income tax rates or corporate tax rates being called into question by the left?

  91. “I think payroll tax cuts that go into the hands of low and middle income families get spent, not hoarded. I think tax cuts for the upper crust go into their pockets or the Cayman islands.”

    I can only speak for myself. When the Reagan tax cuts went into effect in the early ‘eighties, I was right out of residency and making more money than I had ever seen. Of course, when you made $18,000 a year for the last four, anything seems like a windfall.

    I called the practice’s accountant and told her she had made a mistake; my paycheck was too big. She said no, that was the new Reagan tax cuts; that money was mine to keep.

    I invested every penny of the excess. I didn’t pocket it, and it didn’t go to the Caymans. I saved and invested it back in the market, where it went to support American companies.

    Of course NOW, all of Obama’s goddamned money-printing is doing exactly what it was designed to do; it is a hidden tax designed to punish savers and investors like me and confiscate what we have saved and earned – and reward people like my nieces and nephews who spend every penny they make and every penny they can borrow on necessities like fucking 95″ big-screen TVs.

    When Nixon took us the last step off the gold standard he destroyed the economy from then on out, by taking the fetters off the socialists like my Boy Barack. That, and his invention of the EPA, IMHO are his two biggest crimes. Watergate be damned.

  92. The unemployment rate during Bush’s administration was as low as 4.5%. Obama would envy 6%. What did Bush do that Obama didn’t do?

    OK James here is your question relative to the most recent comments.

    Why are we conflating unemployment with the national debt? If Bush is a culprit for anything it is that he and his congress blew a surplus.

    On the employment side, I think some of this was just bad timing. The bubble burst while poor old George was still at the wheel. I don’t think Thor’s comments regarding the change in jobs lost vs jobs gained is as much an indictment of Bush as it is an answer to “Obama is an abject failure.” Clearly with a positive trend in job growth (albeit insufficient to make a serious dent in the unemployment rate) Obama is not an abject failure.

  93. Tigre unless you’re hung up on macro, I don’t get this “cost of jobs” complaint.

    A company finds itself in trouble. It declares chapter 11. Lots of folks get fired. The company makes a rebound and years later everything is hunky dory. Do you dismiss the hunky-doryness just because the company had to go through hell to get there?

    What is wrong with investing in job growth, especially in a stagnant economy that might not stimulate job growth any other way?

    Bull-fuckin-shit.

    How did you know I like compound cuss words?

  94. The unemployment rate during Bush’s administration was as low as 4.5%. Obama would envy 6%. What did Bush do that Obama didn’t do? And don’t tell me it was because the economy was worse than we knew. Please give me something more creative.

    James, I found one question there. Think of it like surfing. We can ride a wave for only so long, then it crashes on the shore. The “crash on the shore” happened during the last part of Bush’s administration. The wave always grows before it “hits” the beach as the depths beneath it decrease.

    There has been no concern with balancing our budget. We really haven’t had a balanced one since 1957. W’s administration was good about passing legislation without accounting for the real costs. One can only operate on credit for so long. Then the bills come due. That’s where we are and have been since.

  95. Pfesser, you can’t be serious about the rock surrounded by thin layer of atmosphere stuff can you? What does the relative “thinness” have to do with anything? It is the composition of the atmosphere that matters. A different atmosphere and the sun would fry us all like a sunny-side egg.

    Be that as it may, to you and Tigre, I don’t consider climate change settled science. But it makes me real nervous when folks start using the equation science=hoax. The minute we start applying all sorts of political ulterior motives to scientists we’re headed down a slippery slope. Don’t forget my Hitchens tale of Muslims telling their followers that polio vaccine was a “hoax” designed to make them convert.

    Demand objectivity from your scientists but don’t dismiss them outright. You do so at your peril.

  96. Thanks folks for giving answers .

    Unfortunately, I have to call the dentist now. A drunk driver-caused accident nearly killed me years ago. I have full crowns which cover the teeth that hit the steering wheel. One has been loose since Saturday.

    While I was reading the comments, my crown fell out, and I nearly swallowed it. I’ll bet you didn’t know your writing was powerful enough to make folks swallow their teeth. Ha!

  97. re: thin-ness (Not Roy Thinness)

    I’m not a climatologist, but let me make an analogy and you see if it makes sense. Suppose you are out in space, say, like an astronaut – or the earth – where it is about 3 degrees Kelvin. (I think that’s pretty close.)

    Now, let’s say you have a very thick coat. The coat to a great degree controls your temperature and you don’t have to produce much heat to be toasty.

    Now let’s say you are wearing something that, relatively speaking, is the thickness of a layer of Spandex. Now if you want to keep warm, you need to either have a really good heater in your body or get heat from the sun or both, but your spandex does not to a great degree control how toasty you are.

    Make any sense? Half of the atmosphere is below 18,000 feet, or roughly three and a half miles, or about 0.043% of the earth’s 8000 miles diameter. It is miniscule – and a gas – compared to the hugely larger rock it sits on. See the analogy?

    The earth’s temperature is controlled by many factors; atmosphere is only one, and I believe not a big one. Like I said, I’m not a climatologist; I could be wrong.

  98. “I don’t get this “cost of jobs” complaint.”

    Numbnutz is attributing job growth to Obama. He ties it to the stimulus. I believe the best thing the government can do to stimulate the economy and create real job growth is to get out of the way. Reign unnecessary regulation, reduce the tax burden on employers etc. In other words, not pour TRILLIONS of dollars into pet projects, government expansion and temporary (shovel ready??) projects.

    You can’t stroke yourself over some jobs coming back without (10 a nexus to the policy that created them and (2) see what the costs were to create those jobs when it comes off of other’s backs f or generations to come.

    You’re giving Obama credit for creating mountains of debt for failed experiments with no real growth. And the Solyndras are just coming out of the woodwork. There’s plenty more. Watch the news, just be sure it isn’t MSNBC or whatever outlet NUmbnutz goes to for talking points. The waste is incredible.

    Obama is no success by any objective measure. Sorry you’re struggling with that so much, but wish-casting doesn’t change the horrible truth (thanks for the term BiW).

  99. “The earth’s temperature is controlled by many factors; atmosphere is only one, and I believe not a big one. Like I said, I’m not a climatologist; I could be wrong.”

    Yeah. Like solar flares.

  100. p.s. servicing our debt is now 100% of our GDP. What don’t you guys get? Tax the rich is no solution. Yet that’s all that’s been offered. I mean even Obama doesn’t dare try the arguments you guys are making. That should be telling you something.

  101. Sound money (gold or silver backed) and dump the Fed… or at least earn interest on the money the Fed is printing and loaning in our collective name.

    Crazy, I know. Good luck getting any politicos behind that.

  102. R, Bush had the DOT.com bubble burst on him coming into office, then he had 9/11- yet, he managed to keep unemployment fairly low. This clown in office would be jumping up and down about how it wasn’t his fault and blaming everything under the sun- to include the sun- for the problems he was experiencing, whereas I don’t seem to remember Bush blaming anything on anyone else.

    Explain that, why can’t the man-child take some responsibility?

  103. Here’s a perfect case in point of why its important to have real metrics when it comes to jobs- easier to remember facts than lies…

  104. I agree with Rutherford, “the minute we we start ascribing all sorts of political motives to scientists, we are in trouble.” It has already happened. The human caused global warming scientists have shown by their own words that they have turned this into a political issue. Their careers and reputations rest on the final answer.

    Other people are using the issue to redistribute power and money across the world. They care more about potential gain than the truth. Even if they are right and humans are causing all of the changes, few people will believe them until its too late because too many of our climate scientists have polluted what should be scientific inquiry with politics and personal ambition. So far, no one has a plan which will actually work.

    As el Tigre wrote, taxing the rich is no solution. The tax structure should be altered to help equalize incomes, but to what end? The rich don’t have enough money to reduce our deficit even if we expropriate all of their property. That is a fact. It feels good to wage class warfare against those filthy rich, though some rich are more equal than others. Some even claim to be spiritual members of the 99%, but it is all bunk. Economic practices have been as politicalised as climate research has been.

  105. I don’t have time to review the last posts, but I remember some one wrote that Republicans had control of both houses of Congress and the presidency when times were relatively good. A year after the Democrats took Congress, our situation deteriorated, and that person blamed the Republicans.

    However, Obama and the Democrats controlled most of the government for two years and our economy did not begin its slight recovery until after Republicans took the house and won strength in the Senate. Were the Democrats so incredibly unlucky that they stumbled into a morass through no fault of their own, or were they part of the problem? My argument is as simplistic as others which lay all of the blame on Republicans.

    Obama did not create 3 million jobs unless the hirelings were government workers. Our economy is like the time last year when Danica Patrick led a race. She floored the accelerator and seemed to be in a nice position to win. However she and the others knew that two drivers were moving faster than she was , and it was only a matter of time before they passed her.

    We are falling behind even with new jobs because our rising population requires that our economy creates even more jobs than before. Our 8.5% unemployment rate doesn’t mean much in context. Our total work force has declined, so 8.5% is part of a smaller total than it was when Bush was in power.

    Our leaders are playing politics for personal gain, and it includes our weather. Solyndra, the Keystone pipe line and other projects are connected to the political wing of climate change.

  106. The Forecast the Facts campaign led by 350.rg, the League of Conservation Voters and the Citizen Engagement Lab is cited in Michele Malkin’s blog. According to a poll cited by the Washington Post 63% of television weather forecasters believe global warming is a product of natural causes. That cannot stand.

    “Our goal is nothing short of changing how the entire profession of meteorology tacks the issue of climate change. We’ll employ everyday people to makes sure meteorologists understand that their viewers are counting on them to get the story right and that those who continue to shirk their professional responsibility will be held accountable.”

    So far, the organization has identified 55 “deniers.”

    Once again, Rutherford, I agree we are in trouble when we ascribe “all sorts of political motives to our scientists….” “Right here in River City” we have trouble.

  107. I was a big Ali G fan when he had a show on HBO. It’s interesting to see how different people react to him. Pat Buchanan got along with him swimmingly. Andy Rooney did not.

  108. Here’s a perfect case in point of why its important to have real metrics when it comes to jobs- easier to remember facts than lies…

    The dumbness continues. The POTUS transposed the numbers and corrected it immediately … simple slip of the lip.

    And your opening premise is wrong. As every good propaganda war has proven, it’s much easier to believe lies than the truth.

  109. 63% of television weather forecasters believe global warming is a product of natural causes.

    Well let’s not forget 63% of weathermen can’t accurately tell you if it’s gonna rain tomorrow. 🙂

  110. And your opening premise is wrong. As every good propaganda war has proven, it’s much easier to believe lies than the truth.” – R

    Then let me shine a little light…

    (The Hill) — The Congressional Budget Office on Tuesday predicted the budget deficit will rise to $1.08 trillion in 2012.

    CBO also projected the jobless rate would rise to 8.9 percent by the end of 2012, and to 9.2 percent in 2013.

    These are much dimmer forecasts than in CBO’s last report in August, when the office projected a $973 billion deficit. The report reflects weaker corporate tax revenue and the extension for two months of the payroll tax holiday.

    A rising deficit and unemployment rate would hamper President Obama’s reelection effort, which in recent weeks has seemed to be on stronger footing.

    If the CBO estimate is correct, it would mean that the United States recorded a deficit of more than $1 trillion for every year of Obama’s first term.

    The deficit was $1.4 trillion in 2009, $1.3 trillion in 2010 and $1.3 trillion in 2011. The largest deficit recorded before that was $458 billion in 2008.

    “With four straight years of trillion-dollar deficits, no credible plan to lift the crushing burden of debt, and a Senate majority that has failed to pass a budget for over 1,000 days, the president and his party’s leaders have fallen short in their duty to tackle our generation’s most pressing fiscal and economic challenges,” Ryan said in reaction to the CBO report.

  111. Assuming forecasters can’t tell you if its going to rain tomorrow supports the global warming doubters’ assumptions about the accuracy of long term climate change predictions.

    The blogger at Weather Forecasting for Traders, Investors, and Businesses wrote ” My inter forecast for Winter 2022-12 (like most others) was disasterously wrong.” So, the comment about tomorrow’s rain also applies to longer range forecasts.

    The blogger says you on the East Coast MIGHT get a doozy of a storm by this year’s standards around Feb 5 IF there is enough cold air to change the rain to ice and snow.

    Thanks for supporting my point.

    I like that Carl Sagan quote and the video. “Word up.”

  112. “I asked two questions at number twenty. They are simple questions with answers requiring nothing of stock markets or economic theft for the rich. Would someone please answer?” J

    I answered it in 24. You guys just don’t like the answer. In the following 100+ comments none of you have explained why economic policy that leads to a recession and a loss of 780,000 jobs a month is preferable to policy that grows the economy. Care to try?

  113. R, here’s another ray if light for you…

    (Bloomberg) — Confidence among U.S. consumers unexpectedly dropped in January as gasoline prices picked up and more Americans said jobs were hard to get.

    The Conference Board’s confidence index fell to 61.1 from a revised 64.8 reading in the prior month, figures from the New York-based private research group showed today. The median forecast of economists surveyed by Bloomberg News called for a rise to 68. The figure was lower than the most pessimistic projection.

    Job growth has fallen short of the pace required to drive bigger gains in wages, at the same time higher fuel costs threaten to strain household budgets and limit spending. The report showed fewer Americans expect their incomes to increase in the next six months, and they pared plans to purchase cars and homes.

    Sentiment data indicate “just how fragile households believe the economic expansion is,” Steven Wood, president of Insight Economics LLC in Danville, California, said before the report. It is “largely the result of ongoing weakness in the labor and housing markets as well as the political bickering in Washington and on the campaign trail.”

  114. Because genius, his policy isn’t creating jobs.

    Have you considered that the economy is trying to work INSPITE or Obama, rather than the Obamabot view of because of him.

    Point to the POLICY that created jobs. Don’t say the “Stimulus” because we all know that is crap. What Administration policy is creating jobs. Maybe you could say Solyndra, oh wait a minute…

  115. I can only speak for myself. When the Reagan tax cuts went into effect in the early ‘eighties, I was right out of residency and making more money than I had ever seen. Of course, when you made $18,000 a year for the last four, anything seems like a windfall.
    I called the practice’s accountant and told her she had made a mistake; my paycheck was too big. She said no, that was the new Reagan tax cuts; that money was mine to keep. – PF

    Doctors don’t pay payroll taxes? Reagan jacked payroll taxes at historical levels.

  116. What happens in the Cayman Islands when it comes to taxes Numbnutz? Do you even know?

    Money is put there and in Swiss banks to be protected from investigations, law suits and ex-wives. Any tax savings are just icing on the cake.

  117. “none of you have explained why economic policy that leads to a recession and a loss of 780,000 jobs a month is preferable to policy that grows the economy.”

    Who’s “policy” are you referring to that is being adopted? Congresses? Bush’s? I think the question of whether this administration’s policy has had any positive impact has been addressed ad nauseum.

    In other words Numbnutz, what “policy” is being advocated that caused job loss? We can all see that you parrot DWS, DNC, Bubbles Brezinski (yes, I saw it for the millionth time this morning), why don’t you say something substantive about it if you want meaningful response?

  118. “Money is put there and in Swiss banks to be protected from investigations, law suits and ex-wives. Any tax savings are just icing on the cake.”

    There are other reasons. Secrecy serves legitimate purposes in variety of situations, including blind trusts, and it is typically the settler that determines the situs, not the beneficiaries. And since Romney’s offshore assets were reported, what taxes weren’t paid (the original premise of your comment)?

    If you’re going to claim it was wrong, why can’t you be bothered to explain how so?

  119. I’m moving to Fairfax.

    “To protest a bill that would require women to undergo an ultrasound before having an abortion, Virginia State Sen. Janet Howell (D-Fairfax) on Monday attached an amendment that would require men to have a rectal exam and a cardiac stress test before obtaining a prescription for erectile dysfunction medication.

    “We need some gender equity here,” she told HuffPost. “The Virginia senate is about to pass a bill that will require a woman to have totally unnecessary medical procedure (ultrasound before abortion) at their cost and inconvenience. If we’re going to do that to women, why not do that to men?”

    I sent her an email. It simply said, “You’re my hero.”

  120. “Doctors don’t pay payroll taxes? Reagan jacked payroll taxes at historical levels.”

    What kind of taxes?

    And since it’s unlikely that PF was a W-2 employee, what are you referring to that Reagan did? Didn’t the Dems just pass a (breathtakingly stupid) interim extension of the payroll tax reduction?

  121. Point to the POLICY that created jobs. Don’t say the “Stimulus” because we all know that is crap. What Administration policy is creating jobs. Maybe you could say Solyndra, oh wait a minute…

    Stimulus … yes! CBO says it helped and you just quoted the CBO so deal with it. GM and Chrysler have added jobs. And, of course, he killed Bin Laden without creating a huge costly, unnecessary war. How much of those deficits are from the Bush tax cuts Obama was forced to extend to get unemployment extensions? C’mon job creators, put those marginal rate tax cuts to work.

    You guys shit on the kitchen floor and now you’re whining that Obama is paying too much for the disinfectant and gloves.

    BTW, Romney just told a Florida crowd last night he won’t go after SS or Medicare. But, he endorses the Ryan budget that ELIMINATES Medicare. That guy is your beacon of light?

    Corporations are people my friend.

  122. Numbnutz, you can’t because you don’t know. What you said is non responsive.

    So to follow your logic, the military downsizing would shrinking the employment base. So how did that “create” jobs?

    How many jobs did the Stimulus a spending kill since it increased debt and the tax burden on employers (i.e. reasons not to hire)?

    You really don’t understand economics at all, do you?

  123. If you’re going to claim it was wrong, why can’t you be bothered to explain how so? ET

    Because if you get tax breaks to be a job creator, then create jobs here, not in a building that houses forty other corporations.

    What kind of taxes? FICA, the kind us poor people pay. He said his taxes went down under Reagan. Mine didn’t.

    Who’s “policy” are you referring to that is being adopted? Congresses? Bush’s? I think the question of whether this administration’s policy has had any positive impact has been addressed ad nauseum. –

    Tax cuts for the rich and deregulation. Exactly what you and the ass-posse tout. Exactly what Bush did. We went into the ditch. If you don’t want this discussed anymore then stop telling me job growth is failure and job loss is success. Stop telling me economic growth is failure and recession is success.

  124. Twenty four was not an answer to my question. It was obfuscation and did not tell us what Bush did that Obama didn’t do. My high school English teacher would have given you a poor grade when we studied debate.

    The Congressional Budget Outlook for 2012-2022 says the real unemployment rate is now 10%. The report said what I wrote earlier that . the work force has shrunken. If the same number of jobs was available today as in 2007 the rate would be 1.25% higher than it officially is-close to 10%.

    Taxes will rise by 30% according to the report, and high spending will starve the private sector. Our economy is growing at a fantastic 2% or so. Obama predicted 5%, and China’s economy is growing at 9%.

    Obama is doing several things Bush didn’t do, and it shows.

  125. “Because if you get tax breaks to be a job creator, then create jobs here, not in a building that houses forty other corporations.”

    What does that or FICA have to do with accounts in the Caymans or Switzerland? What do you think capital investment consists of?

    Why would the FICA affect the employer when it is a tax on wage earning employees?

    “If you don’t want this discussed anymore then stop telling me job growth is failure and job loss is success. Stop telling me economic growth is failure and recession is success.”

    Huh? What tax cuts resulted in job losses? What regulation was eliminated by Bush (as opposed to the dem controlled congress) that resulted in job loss and is now being advocated?

    Do you have Turrets or something?

  126. “He said his taxes went down under Reagan. Mine didn’t.”

    Since he primarily pays cap[ital gains taxes, what the hell do you think that did to his rates under Clinton?

  127. “The heart stress test before a Viagra prescription makes sense to me but the rectal exam????”

    It’s invasive and medically unnecessary – just like the ultrasound exam, in performance of which they stick an ultrasound probe up the young lady’s vagina.

    Appealing, huh?

  128. They do scans both ways, but in pregnancy we now always do a transvaginal exam. Gets the probe closer to the action and gives much better resolution. We also have a little vibrator on the end for the lady’s enjoyment.

    That’s a joke.

    re: Viagra. No, there is no reason for the finger-wave. The idea was to make a point, not any medical reason – her entire point was that if you do a medically unnecessary and obnoxious exam on a woman, you need to do it to the men, too, and see if the men vote for THAT.

    Point made. She’s a good chess player.

  129. Well I definitely agree about the probing men being a tit-for-tat. That is among my few reasons for remaining on the pro-choice side of the equation. Men who never have and never will have a baby think they’re supposed to dictate to women about it. If every pro-life guy was willing to take care of the kid he created during that one night stand, I might be more willing to listen.

    Kevlar jacket on … let the bullets fly.

  130. “My wife said that if men got pregnant, you could buy abortions at the liquor store.”

    You are probably right. That is exactly what makes womanhood so awe inspiring.

    Out of curiosity, does honor mean anything to guy like you, Pfessor?

    Or is it merely a primordial emotional force, blinding one from rationality and a threat to self preservation?

  131. Justice Dept. takes on itself in probe of 2001 anthrax attacks

    Since it began a decade ago, the federal government’s massive investigation of the 2001 anthrax attacks has been plagued by missteps and complications.

    Investigators initially focused on the wrong man, then had to pay him a nearly $6 million settlement. In 2008, they accused another man, Bruce E. Ivins, who killed himself before he could go to trial.

    Now, in the latest twist, the government has argued against itself.

    In documents deep in the files of a recently settled Florida lawsuit, Justice Department civil attorneys contradicted their own department’s conclusion that Ivins was unquestionably the anthrax killer. The lawyers said the type of anthrax in Ivins’s lab was “radically different” from the deadly anthrax.

    Ruh-oh! 😯 Forgot about that craziness. Glad they’ve been diligent with justice. Got to trust ’em to do the right thing. Maybe we’ll get there. Just keep swimming…

  132. Answer at 24? No response whatsoever to my 29.
    Numbnutz, virtually every single one of your promises is dead wrong. Where are you getting this shit? – ET

    From you.

    “According to the advance report on GDP released Friday morning, economic growth for the fourth quarter of 2011 was 2.8 percent, a rate of growth near the average rate of GDP growth in recent decades of roughly 2.5 percent.”

    Where was GDP in Bush’s last quarter? Negative 6.8 %

  133. Twenty four was not an answer to my question. It was obfuscation and did not tell us what Bush did that Obama didn’t do. My high school English teacher would have given you a poor grade when we studied debate. -J

    It was a fine answer to your question. I gave you a whole list of things Bush did that Obama didn’t do. I wasn’t given grades, I earned them. Studied debate? No shit?

  134. Hey Thor, was this that policy success you were talking about?

    WASHINGTON – House Republicans are expanding their probe into the Obama administration’s energy programs, investigating $500 million in green job training grants that placed just 10% of trainees in jobs, according to a government report.

    The program’s goal was to train 124,893 people and put 79,854 in jobs. But 17 months later, 52,762 were trained and 8,035, or roughly 1 in 10, had jobs. Those numbers come from an audit by the Department of Labor’s inspector general, which recommended that the administration end the program and return unspent money.

  135. “Chuck, a lot of the counties in the Panhandle, in north Florida, the cracker counties, if you will . . . more resemble Georgia and Alabama than they do Florida.”Jonathon Martin, MSNBC

    Hey R, any word yet from MSDNC on how the nigger neighborhoods more resemble Detroit and DC than Florida?

    One word for MSNBC: PATHETIC.

    You fucking clowns on the left push this race based bullshit repeatedly, yet continuously demonstrate that it is you, not anyone else, who are the real racists. From Debbie Downer going on about the re-establishment of Jim Crow laws- laws passed by DEMOCRATS- to Pelosi and Clyburn mumbling about regressing the Voter Rights Act- an act most DEMOCRATS voted against.

    How a self respecting person, let alone a black man, can associate with, let alone vote for a Democrat is fucking beyond me.

    I trust you’ll hold MSNBC to task (cough, cough, chuckle, chuckle)…

  136. Out of curiosity, does honor mean anything to guy like you, Pfessor?” – DR

    Rabbit, the guy does porn, so really…

    I’m with Tigre on this, getting a hard on and terminating a life are not even in the same ball park. Its folks like PFessor who think it is a great idea for minors to have abortions without notifying the parents, because you know incest might be involved. Hmmmmm, maybe we should call the cops then, but NOOOOOOOOO, why would that be an important part of the dialogue.

    This whole thing is absurd. Why the pro-Abortion class is so cavalier about taking a life is beyond me. And yet most of these folks claim to be anti-war, anti-death penalty, etc. Absurd…

  137. It was a fine answer to your question. I gave you a whole list of things Bush did that Obama didn’t do. I wasn’t given grades, I earned them. Studied debate? No shit?” – Thor

    I’m not sure you ever studied debate, but if this exchange is any indicator, you didn’t get very high grades. Speaking of lists, here’s another one of things Bush did that Obama hasn’t done…

    U.S. ECONOMY OUTPERFORMS PEER GROUP FROM 2001 TO 2005

    The bursting of the stock market bubble in early 2000 caused the U.S. economy to slow down in late 2000. The terrorist attack on September 11, 2001, exacerbated this slowdown. Pro-growth polices have helped the U.S. economy recover from this slowdown and begin a vigorous expansion. Consequently, the U.S. economy has outperformed its peer group of large developed economies1 (Canada, the European Union,2 and Japan) on balance from 2001 to 2005 in terms of real GDP growth, investment, industrial production, employment, labor productivity, and price stability (see table on page 2).

  138. And here is another finger in Thor’s eye when it comes to income tax progressivity, which means that the rich paid a higher ratio of taxes and the poor paid a lower ratio of taxes under the Bush Tax cuts. I know, this runs counter to everything MSDNC told you, but that should not surprise anyone…

    The numbers above show that for all income groups above $200,000 in AGI, the ratio of tax share to income share increased. For all income groups below that, the ratio decreased. The 1.712 number for the $10 million-and-above group in 2000 means that for every percent share of the income this group earned, its tax share increased by 1.712 percentage points. In 2005, that number has risen to 1.772, implying an increase in progressivity over this time period. (Technically, in order to get a true measure of the progressivity/regressivity of the Bush tax cuts themselves, one would have to hold the income distribution constant and calculate tax burdens under pre-tax cut and post-tax cut law.)

  139. Rutherford –

    I know you are sometimes baffled by Southern boys, so I ran across this today, and I think it will help you:

    THE TOP THINGS THAT YOU WILL NEVER HEAR A SOUTHERN BOY SAY:

    1. When I retire, I’m movin’ North.

    2. Oh I just couldn’t, she’s only sixteen.

    3. I’ll take Shakespeare for 1000, Alex.

    4. Duct tape won’t fix that.

    5. Come to think of it, I’ll have a Heineken

    6. We don’t keep firearms in this house.

    7. You can’t feed that to the dog.

    8. No kids in the back of the pickup, it’s just not safe.

    9. Wrestling is fake.

    10. We’re vegetarians.

    11. Do you think my gut is too big?

    12. I’ll have grapefruit and grapes instead of biscuits and gravy.

    14. Honey, we don’t need another dog.

    15. Who gives a damn who won the Civil War?

    16. Give me the small bag of pork rinds.

    17. Too many deer heads detract from the decor.

    18. I just couldn’t find a thing at Wal-Mart today.

    19. Trim the fat off that steak.

    20. Cappuccino tastes better than espresso.

    21. The tires on that truck are too big.

    22. I’ve got it all on the C: DRIVE.

    23. Unsweetened tea tastes better.

    24. My fiancé, Bobbie Jo, is registered at Tiffany’s.

    25. I’ve got two cases of Zima for the Super Bowl.

    26. Checkmate

    27. She’s too young to be wearing a bikini.

    28. Hey, here’s an episode of “Hee Haw” that we haven’t seen.

    29. I don’t have a favorite college team.

    30. You Guys.

    31. Those shorts ought to be a little longer, Betty Mae.

    AND THE NUMBER ONE THING THAT YOU WILL NEVER HEAR A SOUTHERN BOY SAY:

    Nope, no more beer for me. I’m driving a whole bus load of us down to re-elect OBAMA!

  140. “I’m with Tigre on this, getting a hard on and terminating a life are not even in the same ball park.”

    I swear, sometimes you goobers are so dense…

    It’s not supposed to be in the same ball park and it’s not supposed to be equivalent or even close. She was making a point, and doing it very effectively.

    Here. I was hoping I could find this old Garfield cartoon. This sums it up perfectly.

    http://garfield.nfshost.com/1984/04/10/

    Enjoy your bone, boys.

  141. re: honor

    I think this Texas Gentleman summarized it – although about another mystical substance, as always, the principle is the thing:

    “If you mean whiskey, the devil’s brew, the poison scourge, the bloody monster that defiles innocence, dethrones reason, destroys the home, creates misery and poverty, yea, literally takes the bread from the mouths of little children; if you mean that evil drink that topples Christian men and women from the pinnacles of righteous and gracious living into the bottomless pit of degradation, shame, despair, helplessness, and hopelessness, then, my friend, I am opposed to it with every fiber of my being.

    However, if by whiskey you mean the oil of conversation, the philosophic wine, the elixir of life, the ale that is consumed when good fellows get together, that puts a song in their hearts and the warm glow of contentment in their eyes; if you mean Christmas cheer, the stimulating sip that puts a little spring in the step of an elderly gentleman on a frosty morning; if you mean that drink that enables man to magnify his joy, and to forget life’s great tragedies and heartbreaks and sorrow; if you mean that drink the sale of which pours into Texas treasuries untold millions of dollars each year, that provides tender care for our little crippled children, our blind, our deaf, our dumb, our pitifully aged and infirm, to build the finest highways, hospitals, universities, and community colleges in this nation, then my friend, I am absolutely, unequivocally in favor of it.

    This is my position, and as always, I refuse to compromise on matters of principle.”

  142. “It’s not supposed to be in the same ball park and it’s not supposed to be equivalent or even close. She was making a point, and doing it very effectively.”

    Must have got the same grades in debate Numbnutz did.

    Now read that slowly.

    Makes perfect sense. . . if you already accept the premise. In which case the “point she was making” is completely unnecessary.

    And look at Rutherford run with it. 🙄

  143. thor, on 20, I asked “what did Bush do that Obama didn’t do?” I made a pretty clear connection to a fairly low unemployment rate and more money flowing into the national treasury. My question was narrow and only concerned the time I described.

    You wrote in 24 that Bush turned the surplus into a deficit. He got Medicare part d passed. He cut taxes to “the rich.” The economy lost 780,000 jobs, and deregulation brought a crash.

    Here is why my English teacher would have given you a bad grade. Your writing that the economy lost 780,000 jobs contradicts the premise of my question,which concerned a time when the unemployment rate was pretty good.

    If you have answered my question, your answer implies that you believe Bush’s Medicare plan, deregulation, and cutting taxes to the rich brought more money to the government and created jobs. Could you tell me how they helped create jobs and created more taxable wealth? If that plan worked during the Bush era, why won’t it work now?

    Or maybe you still haven’t answered my question. I’m sure you earned your grades in school. In our school, your non -answer would have earned you a bad grade.

  144. I also asked why it was considered smart that we didn’t help the Iranian ” Green Revolution” because to do so would have besmirched the domestic uprising and it would have been discredited.

    However, we openly gave aid to another domestic revolution in Libya . In that case, our help didn’t seem to discredit the movement. Why was the former good strategy when the latter which contradicted the reasoning for the first also good strategy?

    No one has touched that question either.

  145. James, it’s a wasted effort. Numbnutz hides behind a broken record of worthless platitudes because he doesn’t really understand the policies he mentions. In other words, a quintessential Obama supporter. Although I am certain hes a nice enough guy, you won’t be hearing from him until some lame liberal media outlet gives him a quip or talking point to parrot — again without understanding it.

  146. Hey R, any word yet from MSDNC on how the nigger neighborhoods more resemble Detroit and DC than Florida?

    😯 Helllllo? The “nigger” neighborhoods? Really? 🙄 tsk, tsk.

  147. I trust you’ll hold MSNBC to task (cough, cough, chuckle, chuckle)…

    Funny you should mention it … there should be a post on a related topic today. Look for it. 😉

  148. And yet most of these folks claim to be anti-war, anti-death penalty, etc. Absurd…

    The absurdity works both ways my friend. Many pro-life folks are for the death penalty.

  149. Re: Ultrasound- abortions bills

    These bills show the ignorance of lay people. i.e congressmen. In today’s medical world no woman would ever be given an abortion by a competent medical provider having verified the pregnancy and stage of development without having performed an ultrasound. No one is going to rely on a pregnancy test or a woman’s word regarding term.

    Therefore, regardless of your belief regarding abortion, these bills are politically motivated.

    Re: Viagra. I don’t think this is a drug that should be paid for by Medicare. Medicare doesn’t pay for dental or eye exams, so why is a penis more important than one’s teeth or eyes? If given a choice, I think any rational senior would prefer chewing and seeing over screwing 😉

  150. “Many pro-life folks are for the death penalty.”

    False parallel.

    Unlike a fetus, a murderer (the only crime subject to the death penalty) is the killer.

    If we accepted your logic, an anti-abortionist couldn’t justify killing in self-defense, just as a pro-abortionist would be entitled to kill in self-defense in any circumstance, lethal or not. Obviously that’s absurd.

    Nice try though.

  151. James, regarding the Iranian green revolution, correct me if I’m wrong but Libya asked for help, the Iranian protesters did not. In fact, if I recall correctly, the word on the street was that our intervention (ahem, support) would have been UNWELCOME.

    Let us also remember that Gadaffi was on record saying he was going to kill a busload of folks if they didn’t fall in line. I don’t recall similar rhetoric from the Iranian regime. (Granted, actions speak louder than words and the Iranian actions were pretty nasty.)

  152. “The absurdity works both ways my friend. Many pro-life folks are for the death penalty.”

    Why do you see that as absurd? Their theory is that life begins at conception – and ends at birth. Anything is justified in order to prevent a doctor from performing a legal procedure, but kill the doctor and anyone else working at his clinic? That’s just fine, thankyouverymuch.

    As for the relative worth of penises, eyes and teeth – speak for yourself, you little whippersnapper! LOL

  153. Raji, I don’t understand your point about “politically motivated” on the ultrasound thing. Are you saying that because ultrasound is not necessary to verify the procedure is intended to send message rather than confirm the propriety of the abortion? Or are you saying that no competent doctors would perform an abortion without doing an ultrasound?

  154. Although I am certain hes a nice enough guy, you won’t be hearing from him until some lame liberal media outlet gives him a quip or talking point to parrot — again without understanding it.

    I’m curious … what do you drink in the morning to wash down all that condescension?

  155. If we accepted your logic, an anti-abortionist couldn’t justify killing in self-defense, just as a pro-abortionist would be entitled to kill in self-defense in any circumstance, lethal or not. Obviously that’s absurd.

    Wow you left me head scratching on that one. An anti-abortionist can’t justify killing in self defense so what are you talking about?

    The parallel is not the least bit flawed. Pro-life folks talk about the value of human life, not the value of “innocent” human life. On that scale a murderer and a fetus should have equal rights.

  156. Jeezus, guys…where’s that rubber bone?

    Ultrasound may or may not be used before abortion. There may have been previous ultrasounds, so dating the gestation is a matter of looking at the calendar. There are many, many other ways of dating a pregnancy that don’t require u/s, also. Or, if dates are in question, the doctor may want a u/s, but only he – not the legislature – has the expertise to make that decision.

    Her point as I see it is that THEIR law was political, not medical – so hers was too. Actually a pretty slick way to point out the emperor’s bare ass, I think.

    Where IS that rubber bone, dammit?!

  157. PFesser, you posted as PF, not Pfesser and WordPress said “who the hell are you?”

    Word to the wise: Three links or more will get you in moderation and so will accidentally putting in a different handle or a different email address.

  158. No one has touched that question either.

    The US has been involved in shaping both Iran and Libya over the years. To think we don’t have elements in Iran at work is somewhat naive. Remember the Shah? We helped him gain and hold power in Iran. The Iranians remember. Now the religious leaders run things, even though they have secular leaders too.

    But we are still involved, MANipulating™ things covertly. To imagine they see us as liberators or harbingers of democracy, well it doesn’t fit the reality there. Some do. They like most Americans just fine, it’s factions of our government they have issue with.

    American military involvement would unite the people with their government and religious leaders against us. They also see us as a tool of Israel, a nation bent on their destruction as it was with Iraq. At present there is a quiet revolution going on that does challenge the current rule.

    Libya was really an ally of Israel, even if the public stand was a popular “anti Israel” one. The people, for the most part, were pro American, government and all.

    The countries themselves are also very different. Then too, we have to consider where we are getting our information. As per usual, there is more disinformation than truth.

    To say we openly helped liberate the Libyans is also somewhat naive. There were political/economic motivations at work there. Remember, Qaddafi was promoting an African currency and got away from the dollar/oil standard. That was stopped cold.

    In that way, they resembled Iran. Iran’s oil is not tied to the dollar and their currency is their own – not a part of the global banking cartel’s.

    There are now sanctions put in place by the EU that make it illegal for them to import Iranian oil. Iran exports crude and imports gasoline. Now that’s been halted. Has that info been reported by the MSM? Maybe, but I haven’t seen it.

    These are measures designed to instigate a conflict. That is their only purpose. It’s a chess game and we still are moving game pieces around. We have a Naval presence in the area. But pay close attention, because the ships we have there are some of our older ones – eerily similar to Pearl Harbor where the newer vessels were out of harm’s way.

    Bottom line. These situations rarely appear on the surface as they truly are beneath. We, the people, don’t control the message and often the message we get is meant to mislead or deceive.

    Call me paranoid or a conspiracy theorist, or whatever… I don’t have a warm and fuzzy outlook on what we are told or involved in.

  159. “The parallel is not the least bit flawed. Pro-life folks talk about the value of human life, not the value of “innocent” human life. On that scale a murderer and a fetus should have equal rights.”

    That’s just not true R. Absolutely false. And that’s my entire point.

    So, for scratching your head, take what you just said and look at what I wrote. I was extending your logic. If it were only the value of life, there could never be a justification for killing, including self preservation. And since that’s obviously not the logic you parallel doesn’t obtain.

  160. Tigre, you’re hoisting yourself upon your own petard. Yes, to extend the logic to say it is wrong to kill in self defense PROVES that the entire statement of “all human life is precious” is itself absurd. Anyone who TRULY believed all human life was precious would take the bullet rather than fire first at the aggressor.

    So let’s stop the dumb “all human life is precious” meme, since obviously, it ain’t.

  161. Why do you see that as absurd? Their theory is that life begins at conception – and ends at birth. Anything is justified in order to prevent a doctor from performing a legal procedure, but kill the doctor and anyone else working at his clinic? That’s just fine, thankyouverymuch.” – PF

    Bullshit. Flag has been thrown.

    Linked quote where anyone has said that it is justified to kill an abortion doctor and his staff.

    The absurdity works both ways my friend. Many pro-life folks are for the death penalty.” – R

    As Tigre said, this is a false parallel.

    Our [my] opposition to abortion is that a truly innocent child is murdered. My [our] support of the death penalty is that a person, tried and convicted by his/her peers of pre-meditated 1st degree has made a choice and is suffering the consequences of that decision. There is no comparison.

    Pro-abortionists/anti-death penaltyists can’t logically stand on the position that the death penalty is inhumane yet still justify the murder of an innocent, defenseless human child. Period.

    Pro-life/pro-death penaltyists stand on the position of accountability. The convicted murderer made a choice, was found guilty and is suffering the consequences of their actions. An innocent child in the whomb has made NO choices, let alone poor ones.

  162. Or are you saying that no competent doctors would perform an abortion without doing an ultrasound?-Tigre

    Yes, that is what I meant so therefore the bill is redundant.

    Since your question is rhetorical, the answer is too: “speak for yourself!”- T

    I used the word “rational” 😆

  163. “Consequently, the U.S. economy has outperformed its peer group of large developed economies1 (Canada, the European Union,2 and Japan) on balance from 2001 to 2005 in terms of real GDP growth, investment, industrial production, employment, labor productivity, and price stability” -G

    So, Bush’s claim to the economy actually started before he was even President, but ended three years before he left? And right now you’re dumping all your money into Europe and Japan? Hmmmm.

  164. “People like Mr. [Allen] West, and Governor Brewer and so on, particularly Mr. West, is not only not representative of the African-American community or of the Republican Party, let alone of the American public. So what he says really is of little or no consequence, but it’s unfortunate,” Rep. Jim Moran (D-VA) said about Rep. Allen West telling liberal leaders to “get the hell” out of the country.

    Regardless of what one might think of West’s comments to liberals to get out of the country- a comment that has more support than you might think- who in the fuck is Jim Moran to tell anyone that Allen West- a BLACK MAN- that he doesn’t represent the BLACK COMMUNITY?

    Another case in point. If a white Republican had said the Jim Clyburn- a black Democrat- didn’t represent the black community, liberals and the media would fucking shit itself to condemn said white Republican for being a racist bigot. Yet, here we go with a white Democrat telling a black Republican exactly that.

    Holy Fucking Shit Batman, you hypocritical sacks of shit.

  165. So, Bush’s claim to the economy actually started before he was even President, but ended three years before he left? And right now you’re dumping all your money into Europe and Japan? Hmmmm.” – Thor

    What??????????????

  166. PF -Ultrasound may or may not be used before abortion. There may have been previous ultrasounds, so dating the gestation is a matter of looking at the calendar.

    I was referring to “competent” doctors which was the purpose of Roe vs Wade! No doctor worth his license is going to depend on a “calendar”. It’s his license on the line here and he wants to know there is a fetus in that uterus before he proceeds. A woman may not get an ultrasound right before an abortion but she has had one at some point prior. Maybe you can prove me wrong but I don’t think so.

    If the point of the bill is that a woman has to “look” at the ultrasound no one can force her to open her eyes. Generally the machine is in viewing distance anyway. Maybe Congress should require that she also listens to the “heartbeat”?

    I still contend the bill is politically motivated to make the state’s congressmen appear pro-life whether they are or not.

  167. You wrote in 24 that Bush turned the surplus into a deficit. He got Medicare part d passed. He cut taxes to “the rich.” The economy lost 780,000 jobs, and deregulation brought a crash.
    Here is why my English teacher would have given you a bad grade. Your writing that the economy lost 780,000 jobs contradicts the premise of my question,which concerned a time when the unemployment rate was pretty good. – J

    Unemployment is a lag indicator. The other points concerned the deficit. According to you guys, increasing the debt short term to stimulate the economy is a mortal sin, but blowing up the deficit on corporate welfare and tax cuts is all good.

  168. “Although I am certain hes a nice enough guy, you won’t be hearing from him until some lame liberal media outlet gives him a quip or talking point to parrot” ET

    I guess you didn’t notice 190 where I used YOUR LINK to refute your argument. Or do you now consider yourself a lame liberal outlet? And, BTW, I am incredibly fucking nice. 😉

  169. ” still justify the murder of an innocent, defenseless human child. Period.
    Pro-life/pro-death penaltyists stand on the position of accountability. The convicted murderer made a choice, was found guilty and is suffering the consequences of their actions. An innocent child in the whomb has made NO choices, let alone poor ones.”

    Nice – but transparent-as-a-windowpane – attempt to sneak in your own definition of fetus-as-innocent-child and then frame the whole argument around it.

    That definition is really the core of the whole argument, isn’t it? I think most folks understand that a pregnancy is a work-in-progress that, as it goes along, starts with a couple of strips of DNA and develops eventually into a child, and they are willing to strive diligently and honestly to find a workable solution.

    The fetus-people of course define all feti (like that word? made it up) as “children” and then go from there, and of course there is NO talking about it.

    As long as that is your definition then there will be no compromise. You will either steamroll or be steamrolled. So far the anti-abortionists are the sail-cats. Doesn’t seem very productive to me.

  170. But, like Shooter says, deficits don’t matter.

    From the leftist rag … Business Week.

    Since Ronald Reagan, a majority of Republican politicians have gradually come to conclude, as Vice-President Dick Cheney famously told former Treasury Secretary Paul H. O’Neill, that “deficits don’t matter.” What’s interesting and alarming, however, is that different Republican factions believe deficits don’t matter for opposite and incompatible reasons.

    Supply-siders believe deficits don’t matter because tax cuts so boost investment and productivity that the economy grows its way out of debt. The opposite, “starve the beast” faction, epitomized by tax tactician Grover Norquist, hope tax cuts will indeed create deep deficits that will then force spending cuts. But both things can’t be true.

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_52/b3914021_mz007.htm

  171. “I was referring to “competent” doctors which was the purpose of Roe vs Wade! No doctor worth his license is going to depend on a “calendar”.”

    Wrong.

    “It’s his license on the line here and he wants to know there is a fetus in that uterus before he proceeds. A woman may not get an ultrasound right before an abortion but she has had one at some point prior”

    I just said that.

    ” Maybe you can prove me wrong but I don’t think so.”

    Don’t need to. You just contradicted yourself. Read my post again. This time, carefully. The calendar comment referenced an earlier ultrasound, n’cest pas?

  172. “Yes, to extend the logic to say it is wrong to kill in self defense PROVES that the entire statement of “all human life is precious” is itself absurd. Anyone who TRULY believed all human life was precious would take the bullet rather than fire first at the aggressor.”

    Hellooooo? Do you not read what I wrote?

    Gawd. Again, does the value of the life of the murder victim have value to an anti-abortionist in your estimation?

    You can not add weight through repetition Rutherford.

    And just like the religious debates, I do not have the bent you ascribe to the anti-abortionists.

    How annoying.

  173. “I guess you didn’t notice 190 where I used YOUR LINK to refute your argument. ”

    Which argument did you refute? Forget it. You didn’t read it all the way through, did you?

    There’s some more good CBO reports out too about the drag on the economy and employment because of the debt taken on by Obama.

    And that’s the CBO whose numbers are taken as supplied.

  174. “If the point of the bill is that a woman has to “look” at the ultrasound no one can force her to open her eyes.”

    You may be rig. But if the point is to prevent abortions by incompetent doctors that care nothing of the stage if the fetus (like PF), then why is not the case that the ultrasound requirement is to protect “the fetus” — not the mother, not the doctor?

  175. Numbnutz paleeeeeze.

    Since Obama and the dems loves them a deficit, what are you complaining about? Have you had a change of heart?

    This is a species of the same stupid, “well, Obama my spend a lot, but look at how much Bush spent. . . ” sippy-cup-banging shit.

    So if it was a problem then, why would you double down?

  176. “that care nothing of the stage if the fetus”

    Nonsense. Straw man. Nobody ever said that; if so, cites, please…

  177. The convicted murderer made a choice, was found guilty and is suffering the consequences of their actions. An innocent child in the whomb has made NO choices, let alone poor ones.

    Or perhaps there is a whiff of “the mother made a choice and is suffering the consequences of her actions”?

    How many pro-life folks really care about the baby as opposed to being vindictive about the mother?

  178. We humans think we are pretty important. That is why we value fetuses, I think. We are all “one of a kind” unique. Obviously, none of us were aborted. But since real persons (unique individuals) were created – even in the case of an abortion – there must be a record.

    The first memories I have are faint and involve me as an infant in my mom’s arms while in a rocking chair. The rest of what I first recall was as a toddler.

    My eldest daughter recalls moments of her birth. I think with natural childbirths there are more early memories. My generation’s “modern” practices involved the mothers mostly drugged and the doctors “delivering” the babies. Control freaks, anyone?

    Nowadays there are plenty of options designed to ease the baby’s stress at birth. That almost seems silly, since birth is all about stress. Reactions at birth are recorded and the most enthusiastic get the highest rating. Shock value is vitally important.

    But I understand the desire for calm and positive environments. Early memories are often formed while children are in utero. Some parents play music and recite things to attempt to shape the mental/emotional development of the child. The mother’s heart is the biggest influence.

    Unfortunately, the real world is not calm and soothing. Maybe a “hit the ground running” birth would be better preparation for our fast-paced world. Of course that makes way for more pharma needy youth. Capitalists ought to get behind that. 😉

    At the end of our life we are all just memories and minerals. The minerals go back to the earth. The memories… well, still in debate.

    But since these are all we have, I think those memories that we are making should be positive and uplifting. Can’t change what has been, only what is happening now. Choose wisely.

  179. poolman –

    “At the end of our life we are all just memories and minerals. The minerals go back to the earth.”

    We are stardust; we are golden. We are billion year-old carbon. And we’ve got to get ourselves back to the garden. “Woodstock” – Joni Mitchell

    If you think about it, what you are is not your corporeal self or even your brain. Drilling deeper, it’s really not the chemicals in the brain, since we all have the same ones. It’s really just a pattern. A pattern of chemicals distributed in the nerve cells that hold the memories, experiences, thoughts and feelings. Just a pattern. A description of the distribution of chemicals, not even ANYTHING with a real physical being itself.

    Then the pattern goes to chaos. Just like the light from a bulb when it goes out. Where does the light go? Nowhere. It just ceases to exist.

    There is a great video by thunderf00t on YouTube where he describes why eternal life would be hell, and why the reality of our chemicals coming from some supernova somewhere and meeting in this time and place – for a brief while – is so much more elegant and beautiful than any made-up story could possibly be. Next time I run across it I’ll post the link.

  180. Poolman, you know I love you in a manly conspiratorial sort of way, but it stretches my imagination to believe that you recall being rocked by your mother while an infant … or for that matter that your daughter remembers her own birth.

    Where is Tex when I need him? Can someone with some medical knowledge (perhaps Pfesser or Raji) testify to whether the infant brain is capable of retaining long term memory?

  181. You are barking up the wrong tree, R. It isn’t common, but early memories are well known. I remember breastfeeding as an infant in the presence of two ladies whose faces I remembered and later discovered were my mother’s sisters-in-law. They fell out shortly after my birth and were never in each other’s presence until I was a teenager, so that dates it pretty early. I also remember a date that my mother could date absolutely as being shortly after I learned to walk at 10 months or so. Ditto several other memories. And I remember always having those memories. There are others but those two I can date pretty close.

  182. You need to mind your mitochondria. — Poolman

    I don’t doubt it. 🙂

    Pfesser, you’ll have to forgive me if I find it humorous that a lover of porn has vivid memories of being breast fed. 🙂

    OK, getting serious for a moment, surely there is some medical consensus on the earliest possible ability of the brain to retain a memory. Are you telling me the consensus is “at birth” or even slightly before?

  183. I’m not a lover of porn any more than anybody else. I have made some MONEY at porn and I definitely like THAT. It does get to be pretty boring after a while, like anything else, but I recommend it to anybody for short-term fun. (The thing I remember that really says it all was when two twenty-year old riggers fell asleep on the couch after a hard day’s work while a guy and two beautiful babes had intercourse on another couch twenty feet away for the camera.) LOL

    I don’t have any expertise in early childhood neurology, so I can’t comment about consensus. The brain is not fully myelinated for several years so the theory is that forms the basis for kids’ not remembering much before four or five, but I have heard multiple anecdotes from people personally that refute it. Don’t know what to think of my own experience; could be bogus, but seems pretty real to me. And the fact is that I always remember always remembering it, if that makes sense. I remember having these memories when I was six or eight and my parents later told me that these could only have happened “before x time.”

    I don’t know. Go figure.

  184. Rutherford, I don’t know if Iran’s Green Revolution had an official leader or not, but many people involved coordinated their activities with cell phones, text messages and other forms of communication.

    They also sent pictures and accounts to the world, and I read several messages explaining the protesters were doing so because they wanted help.

    If I remember correctly, Libya also had no coordinated protest leader at first. Poorly organized groups of people were operating and some were competing with each other.

    They may have made an official call for help when the Iranians did not, but my question remains. Why was it all right to ignore the Iranians’ plight because to do so would have discredited the movement, but when the Libyans asked for help our aid would not discredit their protest?

    The original statement didn’t mention one movements’ asking for help or not. It concerned the perception that our aid would tarnish a potential revolution and would not discredit another.

  185. Which argument did you refute? Forget it. You didn’t read it all the way through, did you? – ET

    Your argument that you think GDP isn’t growing. Your own article states that it is growing faster than the historical average. And yes, I did read it. I particularly liked the part where they indicate infrastructure spending (which Republican’ts are stifling) would be helpful for continued growth.

  186. “Since Obama and the dems loves them a deficit, what are you complaining about? Have you had a change of heart?”

    Clinton handed Bush a surplus. Bush handed Obama huge deficits. Obama is trying to get us back to a surplus by re-instating the Clinton tax rates. Who loves deficits?

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