Bain: The Great Equalizer (and Other Thoughts)

Bain: The Great Equalizer

I just finished watching the thirty minute smear piece against Mitt Romney produced by Newt Gingrich’s SuperPAC. Don’t lecture me about how this isn’t Newt’s SuperPAC. We all know better and I’ll focus more on this “joke” later in the article. The glorified campaign ad “When Mitt Romney Came to Town” is fairly well destroyed by a fact check done by the Washington Post. Still, the film leaves me with two conclusions. First, Mitt Romney was a very successful leader of a company. Mitt Romney was hardly a job creator. So henceforth in the campaign instead of saying he created thousands of jobs, Mitt ought to simply say he ran a very successful enterprise and can bring that successful executive leadership to our country. Don’t mention any other companies like Staples which can be countered with examples like Ampad. Simply stick to Bain — “I ran Bain and we did damn well!”

The second conclusion I came to was that Bain, or perhaps capitalism itself, is the great equalizer. All but one of the “common folk” interviewed in the smear job was white. “When you’ve only got two gifts for your kids [at Christmas] that hurts,” says one woman who lost her job supposedly because of Bain. Mmm, how many blacks can identify with that? I’d guess a helluva lot. Another woman talked about her ten kids, two of whom are still minors who need financially stable parents. I’ve read too many conservatives tell black women in the same bind “keep your thighs together and maybe you wouldn’t have so many kids, welfare queen.” Depending on your perspective, the tragedy or the beauty of full-blown capitalism is it knows no racial or ethnic boundaries. All capitalism knows is winners and losers, the powerful and the powerless. The fact is, white or black, if you don’t sit in the corner office, you’re vulnerable. Survival of the company and share holder value is paramount. I can’t help but believe that some, not all, but some of the folks in “When Mitt Romney Came to Town” thought their whiteness insulated them and protected their comfy middle class existence. It made the rude awakening of their actual corporate insignificance all the more shocking.

Our pastors tell us we are all equal before the Lord. When it comes to capitalism run amok, we in the 99% are all equal too and none of us are safe. That’s the real lesson behind the “King of Bain” campaign film. Yet, in the words of Romney, I’ll bet you “a thousand bucks” that these folks, despite what they’ve been through, given the choice between Mitt and Barack will pull the lever for Romney. What’s the matter with Kansas indeed.

The Big SuperPAC Joke

Four years ago, comedian Stephen Colbert tried to get on the presidential ballot in South Carolina and failed. Well he’s at it again this year but an intervening event has added an extra sharpness to his stunt, namely the Citizens United Supreme Court decision. For the past few months, Colbert has been collecting money into his own SuperPAC. This Thursday night, before announcing an exploratory committee into running for “President of the United States of South Carolina”, Colbert brought on his attorney to discuss what to do with his PAC. Since the law states that you cannot fund a campaign out of your own PAC, Colbert had to find someone else to run his. He chose … Jon Stewart.  For the remainder of the sketch on The Colbert Report, Stephen and Jon discussed how they would not have any communication between them regarding the conduct of this PAC as law dictates.

Behind all the silliness was a great primer on the total BS of campaign funding rules as perverted by the Citizens United decision. We all know that the folks who launched the devastating ad campaign against Newt Gingrich in Iowa with no funding limits, were associates of Mitt Romney. Similarly we know that the folks who launched “When Mitt Romney Came to Town” are cronies of Gingrich. Both claim to be independent SuperPACS. We know it ‘s  a lie. If we don’t cut through the noise, weigh the facts carefully and vote our conscience in November; if we let these SuperPAC ad campaigns overly influence us, then the big SuperPAC joke will be on us.

Killing Scientists, Really?

This week an Iranian scientist was murdered on his way to work. He had been working on Iran’s nuclear program. He was the fourth scientist to be killed in recent times. The last time I looked, scientists were not soldiers. They are not terrorists. They are not criminals. They are gainfully employed working in what is purported to be a peaceful pursuit of nuclear energy capability. No one has claimed responsibility for this murder. The leading suspects are the United States’ CIA and Israel’s Mossad. Presidential candidate Newt Gingrich has gone on record advocating these murders. All I can say is I sincerely hope the United States has nothing to do with this.

If scientists need to be killed to stop nuclear proliferation, then I suppose Einstein and Oppenheimer should have been killed long ago.

Pissing on the Enemy

Apparently four United States Marines didn’t get the memo about Abu Ghraib. Four of them are seen in a video urinating on dead members of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta has condemned the behavior. But this gets me to thinking anew about why we need a draft. First, of course, with a draft the war in Afghanistan would be over by now because more parents of dead soldiers and soldiers at risk would be demanding an end to it. However I think it goes further than that. Three types of people volunteer to go to war:

  1. True patriots
  2. Folks who for whatever reason are not making it in American civilian society
  3. Sociopaths and thrill-seekers with blood-lust

I would hope the military is fairly good at screening out the third category but I’m not so sure. I’m damn sure they don’t spend much time screening out the second category. With a draft untainted by corruption the percent of folks in the military who should not be there should reflect the same types of folks in society in general. In other words, as a gross mathematical example, if 30% of Americans are true patriots then a fair draft will pull in about 30% patriots. With a volunteer army you don’t get that representative sampling that a draft encourages. I submit with a volunteer army you get more societal rejects and psychos.

Think about it. With Osama bin Laden dead, and the war in Afghanistan pretty much a waste of time and money, who would volunteer to go there now? You would either have to be blindly patriotic or have some less than ideal agenda. I know it is sacrilege to speak ill of our military, of our brave young men and women. But there is nothing brave about pissing on your enemy’s corpse. We should never forget the lessons of Abu Ghraib. War is dirty and a cross-section of the folks we are sending to fight it are not particularly clean either.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

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300 thoughts on “Bain: The Great Equalizer (and Other Thoughts)

  1. Quite the smorgasbord here, Rutherford.

    You know next to killing and destruction our greatest national talent is in getting around the rules. I think this generation has mastered that. I don’t think any other has had near the innovation or drive.

    Too bad we can’t buy morals like we can everything else under the sun.

  2. Holy shit.

    Hey Obama taint licker, do have any idea how stupid it sounds when you complain about CIA action that may or may not exist and then, the next sentence, bitch about what the 3rd place guy in the Republican Primaries says about it?

    It’s fascinating to see how such a lazy, cowardly and partisan mind works.

    Millions of young adults serve in a combat zone that would make you cry for your mommy.

    Despite this, their record is much better then the cake eating college kids, consistently rioting for rioting’s sake, despite the shared age demographic with the military.

    So, yeah, lets bash the troops over it.

    As for your whining about Capitalism…I….zzzzzzzzzzzz. shit. sorry.

    Where was I. It’s black people who feel insulated. It is tough to can a black dude. You must have been a total fuck up.

  3. Don’t worry though. Capitalism is pretty much dead.

    However, just as you ran like a cowardly cunt after Obama won the election, choosing to focus on Sara Palin instead, I doubt you will defend what you and your corrupt, entitled class of half men have replaced freedom with.

    Freedom takes balls. It’s something that you and poolman will never get.

    When you and your ilk (I’m going to start using that word now that Tex has grown bored with this place) have reduced this country to a giant pile of Crony Capitalist, bureaucratic poop, mark my words, it will be the Rabbit family that rises to the top.

    Make no mistake about it, your world of entitlements, be they corporate or lumpen proletariat, have ruined the country. It’s a mathematical reality that even mainstream Republicans refuse to acknowledge. Go suck a banker’s dick.

    Believe that, bitches!

  4. RE: the Citizens United decision.

    I am curious…would those who want to take corporate money out of politics be willing to give up union money in politics, too?

    I’m all for an even swap.

    RE: pissing on the enemy.

    While I obviously am against that behavior, I think your using it to justify the draft is…stupid.

    And since I know several very fine young men that have enlisted in the last few years, I think I will just not comment on the rest of that garbage piece that insults them by asserting that they might just be homicidal maniacs.

    RE: Iranian scientists.

    If it looks, smells, and tastes like fish, it’s probably fish.

    Chalk up another act of Israeli terrorism against civilians. Had the tables been turned, that is EXACTLY what it would be called.

  5. I am curious…would those who want to take corporate money out of politics be willing to give up union money in politics, too?

    I can’t speak for “those” but personally I would definitely take unlimited donations away from unions just like corporations.

    And since I know several very fine young men that have enlisted in the last few years,

    Those fine young men fall into category 1. Did I say that no one fell into category 1? It would be my hope that most fall into category 1 but I somehow doubt it. Category 2 enlistees have at least a good chance after training to be good decent soldiers. After all, just being a societal screw-up doesn’t make you immoral. Category 3 enlistees scare the crap out of me.

    On HBO tonight, Rob Reiner said that war creates the men that pissed on the Taliban corpses. I disagree. I bet dollars to donuts those four guys were sick thugs in civilian life before they ever hit the Marines.

    Regarding the Iranian civilian murders I hope you’re right Huck that it is just Israel, not that it makes it any better but I hate to think our hands are dirty on this one. Between this and the Strait of Hormuz brewing, you can just see the hawks in Washington gearing up for another war. 😦

  6. When you and your ilk (I’m going to start using that word now that Tex has grown bored with this place) have reduced this country to a giant pile of Crony Capitalist, bureaucratic poop, mark my words, it will be the Rabbit family that rises to the top.

    Make no mistake about it, your world of entitlements, be they corporate or lumpen proletariat, have ruined the country. It’s a mathematical reality that even mainstream Republicans refuse to acknowledge. Go suck a banker’s dick.

    Scientific experiment confirmed, When you borrow phrases from Tex you become as incoherent as he does. 😉

    Please tell me when crony capitalism and corp welfare became the exclusive domain of Democrats? You torpedo your own argument with your final comment about GOPhers refusing to acknowledge mathematical reality.

  7. Hey Obama taint licker, do have any idea how stupid it sounds when you complain about CIA action that may or may not exist and then, the next sentence, bitch about what the 3rd place guy in the Republican Primaries says about it?

    Only stupid if you come to this blog thinking “everything Rutherford writes he writes as a liberal”. The fact that I acknowledge that the CIA might be behind this means I don’t put it past Obama to engage in these covert exercises. I mention Gingrich to bolster the argument that there is American support for this kind of immoral activity.

  8. “You torpedo your own argument with your final comment about GOPhers refusing to acknowledge mathematical reality.”

    I was lumping you and your liberal friends in with many Republicans, not differentiating you from them. I didn’t torpedo shit.

  9. It’s systematic, but its worse on the left.

    The left isn’t even bashful about it. Screw the future and deficit spend. Bail everyone out with the my kid’s money. Dangerous.

  10. People need to get a life. I think it’s really cool that Romney built a special windshield and let the dog ride up top. My dog from a few years ago was a yellow lab, and he LOVED to ride in the back of my pickup truck – the faster and colder the better. I never tied him; he could have hunkered down behind the cab and stayed warm any time but he traipsed from side to side, sticking his snout out into the slipstream and watching the world go by. Could he have jumped out? Yep – at sixty miles an hour – but I trusted him. He was so cold-impervious that he would sleep in the snow rather than his doghouse, letting new snow cover him completely. If I yelled for him, there would be an explosion of snow and he’d come bounding to the house for breakfast.

    The Taliban is right: we have turned into a nation of pussies and busybodies. No wonder the rest of the world – hardworking and focused – are cleaning our plows for us. Christ on a crutch; I’m a helluva lot more worried about he handles trillions of dollars of taxpayers’ money than I am how he treats his dog.

  11. re: Tex as “bored” with the blog.

    Bored hell; he just can’t take what he dishes out. I had a brother like that: always concerned about HIS feelings, but completely unconcerned about those of others. Looks a little different from the other side, doesn’t it, Hotshot?

  12. “That was in response to what exactly?”

    ” All capitalism knows is winners and losers, the powerful and the powerless. The fact is, white or black, if you don’t sit in the corner office, you’re vulnerable. . . ” and your related utopian comments.

    Ah yes, the trappings of capitalism without having to participate in it.

    How’s the certainty of one’s lot in life under socialist/communist regimes (which by definition require force to confiscate and redistribute)?

    Childlike.

  13. Boy Rutherford, couldn’t you sleep last night. Your brain went all over the place 😉

    Re: Bain: The Great Equalizer
    I’m going to jump back to your comment #211

    “That’s the way we live with capitalism in this country and particularly capitalism on “the bleeding edge” (credit default swaps, etc, etc.). We park our conscience at the door in the name of preserving the ecosystem.”

    The fact is Life’s Not Fair, something every third grader needs to learn.

    My concern regarding Bain Capitol is that MSM has made this a focal point on Romney. The republicans running for nomination will continue to focus and if Romney wins the nomination then the Democrats will use Bain as a focus point.

    When do we get to learn about Mitt the Man? Question of the Day: Do you know Romney’s first name without looking it up? 30% polled thought it was Mitten.

    MSM gets on a subject like a dog with a bone. I guess they really do think Americans are stupid and can only handle one subject at a time such as Sanatorum = sanatorum. That’s what happens when one’s vocabulary consists of “tweets”.

  14. We are all forced to participate in capitalism in America, like it or not. It’s true whether we are producers and/or worker bees, or just consumers.

    Some communities are isolated from it and function more communistic in nature, but they still have to participate in capitalism when interacting with persons and businesses outside those communities.

    Of course, communism has gotten a bad name in the modern age, often associated with cruel and immoral dictators, world domination, forced atheism or leader worship. The red scare and other national propaganda campaigns here during the last century have shaped our image of what communism is. It isn’t that at all. Per the Book of Acts in the NT, the first Christians were communists.

    Here in the US we have the IRS confiscating and redistributing wealth. Plenty of states do it too. If you don’t think we have a system that confiscates and redistributes, try NOT paying federal taxes for a few years.

  15. I’ll say this R: if I bomb an enrichmnet facility, I’ve set back their program a few years. If I kill their scientists, I’ve set their program back decades, maybe generations.

    National security is more than the military. It is not the first time nuclear scientists have been targeted, nor will it be the last.

  16. “All capitalism knows is winners and losers, the powerful and the powerless. The fact is, white or black, if you don’t sit in the corner office, you’re vulnerable. .”-R

    Child like is right.

    I guess we need to use child like analogies with him.

    My brother, the pharmacist, makes way more money then me. I could sit back and jealously brood about it, like you would.

    Or, I could trade with him. Trade empowers me. He had 25 silver eagles. I kept telling him I’m going to make those mine.

    And they are, now.

    Why? Because I’m going to mow his lawn all summer. It aint always glamorous for the Rabbit. The work isn’t beneath me. And I have the time that he doesn’t.

    The free market liberated both of us. I end up with another 25 Eagles that were out of my budget, and he gets his lawn mowed.

    See how that works? We are all vulnerable, in different ways. Capitalism makes us less so. Fucking beautiful, man.

  17. Wow, R. Your brain really was working overtime on this one 🙂 First, What’s Wrong With Kansas, indeed, lol. I’m presently reading Frank’s “The Wrecking Crew”, but slowly. I have to keep taking breaks for the sake of my blood pressure. I’m going to have to disagree with you slightly on whether or not Romney was a “job creator” or not (and I must say, I hate that bogus term). When Bain infused Staples with cash, it grew from one store to 2000, employing thousands of people. You can argue that Staples management did it, not Bain or Romney, but I tend to think that’s splitting hairs. Staples would not be where it is today without Bain Capital, and without Bain’s decision to invest in them. Sure, they made a ton of money from it, but who really would argue about that? It was win-win. (I keep trying to tell people I’m pro-business. I’m just not pro liars who claim they are job creators, then sit on the money.)
    On the other hand, Bain invested in a steel company which failed anyway, even after they spent thousands if not millions modernizing the plant and its equipment. There were factors beyond Bain’s control.
    It would be nice if Romney’s leadership of Bain did not form some part ot the Democrats’ campaign against him, but it’s probably inevitable. Presently, the Republicans seem to be doing a fine job of trying to discredit him all by themselves. Like any of them have ever created a job, even theoretically 🙂 If I sound like a Romney fan, well, that would not be the case. But I object to distortion. Especially taking out of context his statement that he likes being able to fire people (in this case insurance companies) who are supposed to be providing services to him. Which his opponents have distorted and shortened into, he likes to fire people.
    I see some things haven’t changed about your blog in my abscence 🙂

  18. ”30% polled thought it was Mitten.” –Raji

    😆 Political bias, the allure of celebrity, and ratings have totally corrupted the media. Can’t blame people entirely for remaning uninformed with the choices being what they are. The internet isn’t much better. It’s a morass.

    ~~~

    Rutherford I’m still gathering my thoughts on this but I’ve been comparing – equating – racism and sexism lately. I’m mulling over the similarities of the origins of the two and the differences in the responses to them and the contrasting attitudes about the two.
    Personally I don’t trip too much on it when I encounter it myself. Historically I rarely bothered to pause long enough to bugle that I’ve hit up against some. I step over it.

    Have you noticed ageism since you became unemployed?

    ~~~

    The Santorum baby thing got me thinking that people make up for themselves what they believe is “natural.” I kept thinking about the situation in the animal world where the parent stays with the dead offspring long after the heart has stopped beating. Why, I wonder. Certainly not religion. Insanity? Wing-nuttery?

    ~~~

    FN2!

    “It would be nice if Romney’s leadership of Bain did not form some part ot the Democrats’ campaign against him, but it’s probably inevitable.”

    Oh yeah, for sure. Kind of made me wonder if Gingrich getting a jump on it is less of a false start or a foul than a win for Mitt. I’ve heard the Dems are a little disappointed and concerned. Could be gossip though.

    ~~~

    Don Imus cracked me up when he tried to get his wife and a female news correspondant to choose which one of the Republican candidates they would have sex with – and he forbid them from choosing Romney. 😆

  19. “Did I say that no one fell into category 1?”

    No. Nor did I say that you said that.

    Let’s review what I did say…

    “…by asserting that they might just be homicidal maniacs.”

    That you did that is undeniable.

    “Category 3 enlistees scare the crap out of me. ”

    Rutherford, there are those types of people in the world. If you have a demographic of people that is large enough, you’ll find plenty of them in the group.

    It isn’t a reflection of the demographic, or of the type of people it attracts.

    It’s a reflection of human beings.

    “Between this and the Strait of Hormuz brewing, you can just see the hawks in Washington gearing up for another war.”

    You all said the same thing when it was Bush’s watch. Didn’t happen then, either, did it?

    Ain’t gonna happen this time, either. This is just a very, very high stakes game of poker. And we’ve got better cards.

    “if Romney wins the nomination then the Democrats will use Bain as a focus point.”

    There are some nice Solyndra videos in the works for just such an occasion. They will go nice with yesterday’s document dump that shows the WH knew about the Solyndra layoffs before the employees did.

    “I guess they really do think Americans are stupid…”

    Have we given them any reason to think otherwise?

    “I’ll say this R: if I bomb an enrichmnet facility, I’ve set back their program a few years. If I kill their scientists, I’ve set their program back decades, maybe generations. ”

    You see how it works, Rutherford?

    Al Qaeda could have justified murdering 3000 people if it had only said it was doing so in order to set back our economy for decades/generations (which they have very arguably done).

    Oh wait….that is pretty much what they said….

  20. How’s the certainty of one’s lot in life under socialist/communist regimes (which by definition require force to confiscate and redistribute)?

    As I said in the prior thread, no economic system is ideal but among the bad ones, capitalism is the best. Just because it is the best doesn’t mean its flaws don’t deserve discussion.

    I heard an amusing observation on TV today. Perry and Gingrich are not only left of the GOP on this one … they’re left of the Democrats on this one.

    Before you get your bowels all worked up Tigre, understand that Gingrich and Perry have launched an unprecedented attack on capitalism. Only Bernie Sanders could have gone this far. 😉

  21. Do you know Romney’s first name without looking it up?

    Just for giggles, it’s Willard and no I didn’t need to look it up. 😉

    Some dope the other day on TV said it was Millard. He must have been thinking of Millard Fillmore. 😀

  22. National security is more than the military. It is not the first time nuclear scientists have been targeted, nor will it be the last.

    G, you’re right. As I said, four scientists have been killed in the past two years.

    I return to my original premise. Shouldn’t Oppenheimer have been killed in the first place so we wouldn’t be dealing with this?

    Sorry, there have to be rules of war. Civilians should be off limits unless they are clearly terrorists along the lines of the American dude in Yemen.

    If we want to set back Iran’s program. let’s just preemptively nuke them. Drop a nuke on Tehran and be done with it.

    There have to be limits.

  23. I could sit back and jealously brood about it, like you would.

    Ah I see the Rabbit has drunk the Romney “envy koolaid”.

    I don’t doubt some folks tumbling out of the middle class into the working poor are envious of the rich. But I think the vast majority of cries you hear right now have nothing to do with envy.

    It is not envy to say “you can have your $1 million/year job as long as I can have a living wage.” That’s all a lot of folks are saying.

  24. Muffy, Gingrich getting a jump on it so to speak, is less a win for Mitt than it is for the President. If the Democrats are smart, they will take this tactic: Mitt Romney is a great American who has a lot to contribute, and we hope he will join us in making America better. LOL. Like that will happen.

  25. Especially taking out of context his statement that he likes being able to fire people (in this case insurance companies) who are supposed to be providing services to him.

    I 100% agree with you on that one.

    Of course in Romney’s mind corporations are people, so maybe the misquote isn’t that bad. 😉

    But seriously, you’re right. Romney got screwed on that one.

    Did Bain give Stapes life sustaining funds? Sure. Did Bain execute a marketing plan or sales plan or any other business plan that enabled Staples to use that money and flourish? I don’t know. I doubt they did.

    This is why I say Romney is better off getting away from the “job creation” meme and focus on what a damn good executive he was at Bain. One of the biggest gripes about Obama is that he sucks as an executive. Romney can focus on that skill alone and still be persuasive.

  26. “Before you get your bowels all worked up Tigre, understand that Gingrich and Perry have launched an unprecedented attack on capitalism.”

    That’s the truth. Pandering, lame, unfounded attacks. It’s that you seem to have bought into aspects of them for unthinking reasons that bother me. Hence my reaction.

    At least I can remain regular.

  27. You know, it suddenly dawned on me that I am one of the only commenters, if not the only one making a living in the business world. There are a lot of amazing professionals here, but it makes me wonder if my perspective is different.

  28. Hey Rutherford.

    Serious question. Maybe off topic.

    Does it ever hit you in a kind of a holy shit moment that even the super committee failed to cut 1.5 trillion dollars OVER TEN YEARS.

    They can’t even cut 1.5 over ten years!!!!!!!!

    Every now and then it hits me and blows me away. I bet you don’t think about it much.

  29. “Sorry, there have to be rules of war. Civilians should be off limits unless they are clearly terrorists along the lines of the American dude in Yemen.

    If we want to set back Iran’s program. let’s just preemptively nuke them. Drop a nuke on Tehran and be done with it.

    There have to be limits.”

    Wow. You’re like the Evil Knievel of logical leaps with that one.

  30. The naivety is breathtaking.

    If someone had killed Oppenheimer, would it have stopped the bomb? No, because Germany was not far behind in attempting to do the exact same thing.Likewise, Oppenheimer was not the only US scientist working on the Manhatten project.

    This could have been dealt with a lot sooner by “diplomats” in the UNSC, but in typical “diplomatic” and UN fashion, they’ve done nothing. Comprehensive sanctions to include Iran’s oil would have likely stopped this. But we’ve been too timid and the Russia’s and China’s of the world would rather exploit the situation than address the threat. Hmmmmm, I wonder who’s failing at “diplomacy”, us or them?

    US Federal employees have to sign a worldwide availability document, which says that they can be sent anywhere the US government needs them, to include war zones. Does that make us civilians or agents of the state? Do you think a scientist working for the state is any different? Especially one working on a suspected nuclear weapons program? Didn’t think so…

    There are rules and Iran has been breaking them for years, yet our “diplomats” have been either ignoring this breach or have been too weak to do anything about it. Rules don’t mean anything if they are not enforced.

  31. Have you noticed ageism since you became unemployed?

    Abso-friggin-lutely and it’s compounded by disability. When I was a spanking new member of the unemployed, a disabled 22 year old Harvard graduate, I had the edge of “wow that young kid’s got spunk. He’s got a disability but he seems to handle it well. He’s got energy … bla bla bla”.

    A couple of years ago when I was actively seeking employment, age combined with a high salary at time of layoff definitely was a negative factor. On the rare instance that I got an interview, the disability (I think) worked against me because I no longer had that ‘young spunk” thing going for me. Frankly, I think some employers just saw a middle-aged health risk.

    That’s why I like self employment at this point because I call the shots. Sadly the income is negligible (prospects for 2012 actually look better than average) but I only have to impress my clients, not some boss.

    P.S. I had one potential employer tell me I was overqualified and one heart beat later told me they didn’t have the money to train me. WTF???

  32. Diplomacy is about winning. Getting the most out for the least put in. We ‘talk’ because it is cheaper than fighting.

    I’m starting to really change my mind on Romney. A Bain Capital foreign policy might not be so bad. God, it’ll beat our current crop of “diplomats”.

  33. I’ve heard the Dems are a little disappointed and concerned.

    The problem has been stated thusly:

    If Jeremiah Wright had emerged in October 2008 instead of much earlier,might Obama not have survived it?

    This Bain thing is getting so much heat so far in advance of November that the Dem’s may not be able to make much hay of it. It’ll be old news by then.

  34. “This is why I say Romney is better off getting away from the “job creation” meme and focus on what a damn good executive he was at Bain.”

    R, I really think you are about 5 degrees off of understanding how VC works. Saying that he saved or created jobs is not unfair when it comes to most VC arrangements. In most circumstances, VC are hatchet men that have to make the venture mean and lean to survive. VC is usually last resort as well. So when they do, unlike Obama, “saving or creating” is a fair claim.

    As for winning no matter what, as FN notes: “On the other hand, Bain invested in a steel company which failed anyway, even after they spent thousands if not millions modernizing the plant and its equipment. There were factors beyond Bain’s control.”

    Got that? Millions can be lost.

    Now, by contrast my Granpa worked on the floor at Studebaker. He was a union guy. If you have a cant understanding of the history of the company you’ll know why the union ensured that future generations would never drive a Studebaker.

    R, when you speak of the unfairness of capitalism and VC I hear the voice of my (unemployed) Grandfather.

  35. They can’t even cut 1.5 over ten years!!!!!!!!

    That is because they don’t want to give anything up. It is like defeat in the minds of capitalists. Going back to a balanced budget and living within our means equates to living in poverty to many. Fail. traversing backward.

    It is a flaw in our system. We don’t understand that in many instances, less is really more.

    At least Ron Paul is claiming he would cut a trillion out of the budget in a year’s time. Obamney won’t. A vote for Obamney is a vote for more of the same.

  36. “This Bain thing is getting so much heat so far in advance of November that the Dem’s may not be able to make much hay of it. It’ll be old news by then.”

    Bingo.

    It was a gift from Newt.

    (of course it’s so stupid. . . )

  37. Gorilla, “Debbie Downer” was on Bill Maher last night and was very uncomfortable because the reliably liberal Rob Reiner didn’t seem to have his nose too out of joint over the Marine piss incident. Looking at her facial and body language you could tell she was thinking “why did I ever agree to this gig?”

  38. If the Democrats are smart, they will take this tactic: Mitt Romney is a great American who has a lot to contribute

    I tweeted something like that a week or two ago. Basically, hey Mitt, since you created so many jobs in the private sector and government cannot create jobs, why don’t you do your patriotic duty and stay in the private sector. 🙂

  39. Ron Paul is a kook and a throwback to the Missing Link. Tigre, I don’t quite understand your “unlike Obama” reference. I think it’s pretty equivalent. Bad things happen. Bain Capital did its best, because success was in their best interests too. The difference is that Bain Capital had much more control. Presidents do not create jobs. I’m a big fan of capitalism. I’m just not a fan of capitalism run amok, nor of blaming the evil government for the excesses and stupidity of greedy, ignorant people in charge of some corporations. They are shooting themselves in the foot.

  40. Rabbit I never had any hopes for the Super Committee in the first place. We have hopeless gridlock and a bipartisan selfishness that prevents us from taking the bold ugly steps to prevent our economic demise.

  41. “How about that explanation on diplomacy?”

    I tend to have better things to do these days than read upward on comment strings that gather 100+ comments a day, so I missed whatever you are referring to.

    “Do you really think this is new?”

    No and I never alluded to such.

    Suicide bombers aren’t new, either. But that doesn’t make it right, does it?

    “Secondly, how was this terrorism?”

    Do I really need to explain to you why detonating explosives in the middle of public streets in order to kill specific civilians with gross disregard for any living thing around them is an act of terrorism?

    “Comprehensive sanctions to include Iran’s oil would have likely stopped this.”

    Yeah, because decades of sanctions have done so much to this point.

    You still don’t get it. Iran wants that bomb as a deterrent to invasion, just like it has done for N. Korea, and Pakistan, and India and literally every single nuclear power on the face of the earth.

    Diplomacy won’t stop it. Sanctions won’t stop it. And if Iran has done its homework…military actions won’t stop it.

    It is going to happen, and Iran is friendly enough with enough people to make sure that it happens.

    “God, it’ll beat our current crop of “diplomats”.”

    No argument from me, there. Arabs and Iranians are some of the most skilled diplomats in the world. US diplomacy has been for shit for many years. Obama only changed their posture…not their quality.

    “Diplomacy is about winning.”

    Diplomacy is about you winning while simultaneously convincing your adversary that he has also won…whether he has or not.

  42. Ron Paul is a kook and a throwback to the Missing Link.

    Well, you know what they say about opinions. If nothing else he is the only one with integrity that has been consistent for 30 years. He also wants to restore the Constitution as the rule of the land.

    He is even still married to the same woman and has been for 55 years.

    But hey, what’s reality have to do with it?

  43. Assassination is not terrorism.

    You did not describe diplomacy, you described an alliance. I don’t think it a stretch to say that you don’t subscribe to Morgenthou or Waltz. So who I wonder?

    I’m sure you don’t agree with Hunnington either, but you can’t explain Egypt or the ramifications of the arab “spring”.

    Our sanctions against Iran are neither comprehension or universal. If you don’t think sanctions work, then what do you propose? Shall we scuttle the NPT (of which Iran is a signatory member)? Not so bold prediction: if Iran gets a nuke, there will be a nuclear arms race in the Middle East, a region renound for geopolitical stability.

  44. FN2: it suddenly dawned on me that I am one of the only commenters, if not the only one making a living in the business world

    How do you define making a living in the business world? If I’m not making a living in the business world, then I don’t know what business I’m in.

  45. A couple of years ago when I was actively seeking employment, age combined with a high salary at time of layoff definitely was a negative factor. On the rare instance that I got an interview, the disability (I think) worked against me because I no longer had that ‘young spunk” thing going for me. Frankly, I think some employers just saw a middle-aged health risk.

    One of the primary reasons why I want employers out of the health insurance business. The other main reason I want them out of that involvement is that frees an employee to leave the company if the company treats them badly. Too many people reward bad companies by continuing to work for them solely to retain health insurance benefits.

  46. “You did not describe diplomacy, you described an alliance.”

    No I didn’t.

    An alliance would be both sides actually winning something. That is nowhere near what I said. Read it again.

    “I’m sure you don’t agree with Hunnington either”

    Assuming you mean Huntington, you are correct.

    “…but you can’t explain Egypt or the ramifications of the arab “spring”.”

    What exactly would you like me to explain about those things?

    “Shall we scuttle the NPT (of which Iran is a signatory member)?”

    You mean that treaty that your beloved Israel hasn’t signed?

    Why not? Russia and other countries still help Iran develop its program? That’s why sanctions have failed.

    “Not so bold prediction: if Iran gets a nuke, there will be a nuclear arms race in the Middle East…”

    That is already going on. Blame the Middle East country (Israel) that already has nukes before blaming one that doesn’t.

    “Assassination is not terrorism.”

    Like I said…all AQ would have to do to justify 9/11 is claim they were attacking..or “assassinating” people to hurt our economy.

    I hope I don’t need to remind you about the argument for domestic drilling that connects the US economy to national security…since it is, after all, a conservative argument.

    Hell, since we’re cool with everyone around an “assassination” target being killed, too, they could even say they were just going after 1 person, and all those other people were just collateral damage.

    I can play these word games all day long.

  47. “Rabbit I never had any hopes for the Super Committee in the first place.” -R

    What does that mean to you? Does it remain abstract?

    Isn’t the debt crisis the ultimate litmus test on progressive politics (no matter what party backs the latest entitlement)?

    A democratically elected government can’t be trusted if it secures said elections on Nanny promises.

    Liberal politics dish out an ultimate death blow to democracy.

    Entitlements are too addictive. They never go away. Always grow. They can’t be sustained by taxes. Synthetic interest rates are a necessity and create an oligarchic and perverse relationship between big banks and government. Disfranchisement of the future. A few elites desperately tinkering for our benefit. Reliance on China. What a nightmare.

    A fiat monetary policy is better then the gold standard only if we are responsible. We are not.

    Occupy Wall Street doesn’t have it right. We are not the 99%. We are the 99.99%. And the .01 are found in DC in greater numbers then Battery Park.

    Considering the epic/historic amount of money Obama squandered during his first 4 years, doesn’t your own phrase of “economic demise” give you pause?

    The funny thing is that 1.5 over ten years solves nothing.

    They are incapable of even passing good gestures. That’s how fucked we are.

    The Tea Party was our only hope.

    Was.

    Unfortunately, the Tea Party was high-jacked by the GOP.

    Its not that the Tea Party now espouses a platform I don’t agree with.

    Far from it.

    What happened to the pure, bipartisan fiscal conservatism that existed in the movement’s infancy?

    Rutherford, you very well may have been successful two years ago.

    Your vile and creatively diverse slander about the nature of the Tea Party may have caused the right to circle the wagons around the movement. It got sucked into the vortex of partisanship.

    Maybe that’s the kind of thing your proud of? A foot soldier for MSNBC. Who cares about your daughter’s future. Who cares if they have consistently made you look like a slave.

    The GOP was scared to death of the Tea Party. Perhaps you played your part in diluting the original message?

    Rutherford, your daughter and my son face great pain. Set your ego aside. Become a staunch fiscal conservative and even fire the Rabbit, if need be.

    Ron Paul is not fit for being president. The vacuum he would create overseas could lead to WW3.

    But Ron Paul is the most important voice in politics, right now.

    We need a reasonable Ron Paul and we needed him yesterday.

    Is Romney the answer?

    Hell no. But he could be an integral piece of the puzzle if we have a sea change in the way people like you think.

    If we had the fortitude to take the beach at point Omaha, surely guys like you can eat some crow and save the country.

    Obama came through with none of the liberal promises you so staunchly defended during the campaign. So WTF? Why bother?

    Seek your identity outside of politics. Become an independent. And shrink this fucking government.

  48. Ron Paul wants a strong defense, not an empire. That’s the difference. That is why the majority of the military wants him.

    The Neocons along with Israel are tipping the WWIII bowl of wrath. It gets them all giggly and hard. Ask Tex if you ever catch his whiff.

  49. “Ron Paul wants a strong defense, not an empire.”

    Empire my ass. If its an empire, lets start looting natural resources.

    Global security guards more like it. And, i agree. We need to draw down our forces, specifically in Europe. But, a power vacuum would be disastrous.

    Odd Empire we are…..we take over countries and pour our resources INTO them, not the other way around. Either that or we sell them coca-cola. Oh the horrors. We’re worse then the Belgians in Congo!

  50. “Tigre, I don’t quite understand your “unlike Obama” reference.”

    First, Obama is full of shit about “jobs saved or created.”

    With Bain there is a metric. With Obama he just says it and his followers repeat it.

    Obama’s design is government expansion. His policies adverse to business and job creation.

    Industry preference divorced from profitability financed on the backs of tax payers.

    etc., etc.

    I am surprised you missed the import of my statement or any distinctions.

  51. If its an empire, lets start looting natural resources.

    What do you think we’ve (the owners as Carlin calls them) been doing these past ten years, teaching them table manners?

  52. R, what do you mean “in business?”

    I am an employer. Isn’t that more pertinent?

    I represent businesses and shareholders.

    R, you’re good man. But you’re deluded.

    I rarely encounter someone that has so little knowledge of business, finance and economics as you. Really.

  53. My correction of Fakename was not meant as a statement of any expertise. I was simply saying I’ve never been in academia, the military or the public sector. I’ve always worked in the private sector either as a peon or a first line manager (almost a peon) or as a business owner. I never claimed to be Warren Buffet.

  54. Rutherford, agree on definition of working in business. And I’ve only worked in the private sector as well. I’m pretty multi-national technology and media companies count as working in business 😉

  55. It is worth repeating that Ron Paul is not an isolationist but a non-interventionist.

    Rabbit one key ingredient to putting our financial house in order is to stop policing the world. We can no longer afford it.

    I also think one of the most compelling ideas being pushed by the candidates is placing as many programs as possible down to the state and local level. Simplify the federal government.

  56. LOL Kat I would agree and you reminded me of something.

    24 years of my working life was with one of the biggest most successful multinational companies in the history of business. In such a huge bureacracy you’d be surprised just how isolated even department managers are from running the business (much less understanding it). In seven years in management I was never given control of a budget (nor were my peers).

  57. Other than my first two years attending college, I have always worked in the private sector. Part-time during school and fulltime during summers and since. I still own a pool construction business, though business is still very depressed. At one time I had several employees, but not any more.

    I thought the qualifier was “making a living in the business world.” I was profitable at it and hope to be again, but for now it just makes enough to sustain itself, essentially just keeping up with the reduced overhead, licensing, and insurance costs. My wife is actually “bringing home the bacon” right now.

    Seasons change and the best we can do is learn to adapt. The greatest obstacle is generally pride.

  58. “What do you think we’ve (the owners as Carlin calls them) been doing these past ten years, teaching them table manners?”-poolman

    Your ignorance does a disservice for those who truly lived under Imperialism.

    And yes, to a great extent, we ARE teaching them table manners. Pretty much sums up the neo-con take on foreign policy, actually.

  59. Hey, I apololgized…give me a break already 🙂 My comment was not intended to be some sort of superiority thing. I will amend it to say: except for R and GypsyKat…
    Non-interventionist is now the same thing as being isolationist. You simply cannot do that any more, if you ever could. Intervention, in the form of aid, is the best we can do. It is much better to build a school, or a bridge, and let people see that we are helping them. Instead of having their first impressions of us be that we are killing them. And Ron Paul would like to do away with that. Unbelievable.
    As for letting states decide. Should we, for example, let the state of Alabama decide whether or not it can discriminate on the basis of race? I’m for a stronger federal government. Not a weaker one.

  60. “Which drugs are those? We ARE the most drug addicted of all nations. Are we the healthiest?”

    By listing coca-cola with drugs, I thought you were referencing the things we export to other countries.

    You just bash America, without much thought.

    You rarely make much sense.

    Rutherford, whats the difference between an isolationist and a non-interventionist? Would you characterize the GOP in the 30’s as non-interventionist?

  61. R and Kat. My sister used to work for the same unnamed multinational company. I would just say that working for a small company, where you have to do budgets using other people’s money, is just as scary if not more so. One false move….
    Be careful what you wish for.

  62. “As for letting states decide. Should we, for example, let the state of Alabama decide whether or not it can discriminate on the basis of race? I’m for a stronger federal government. Not a weaker one.”

    That is a straw man.

    The Constitution is quite clear that state laws cannot go against federal law.

  63. “I’m for a stronger federal government”

    Heck yeah. Me too. Federal government makes everybody’s life better.

    Let’s grow it. Make it involved in everything.

    Solar panels, the local school, little league.

    Its so important to me to have a federal government involved in every aspect of my life I’m willing to bankrupt my kids future for it.

    I say get rid of states and break America into 200 uniform sectors.

    Congress and the President can help us all. Their track record is impeccable. They have proven time and time again they have what it takes.

  64. R and Kat. My sister used to work for the same unnamed multinational company.

    What same unnamed multinational? I’ve worked for three so far. The second was a spinoff that eventually went multinational.

  65. “I’m for a stronger federal government”
    Heck yeah. Me too. Federal government makes everybody’s life better.
    Let’s grow it. Make it involved in everything.

    There is a middle ground, you know. I want consistent federal government in terms of civil rights, education (ala Finland style, which I’m perfectly happy to letting states pioneer), and environmental standards. Corporate regulation (as virtually all corporations are interstate commerce) should also be done at the federal level. I’m also for block grants for things like welfare. The problem with arguments like the one I reference above is that it’s this extreme pendulum swing. Hate the federal government! States rights all the way! Vs. Overpowering federal government! Communism! Nonsensical and stupid straw men.

    A illustrative example where states rights harm others is Texas education. They want to dumb it down, remove Jefferson and evolution, promote intelligent design as science. And because they’re the biggest purchaser of text books, publishers go for the lowest common denominator and all states have to get the same stupid text books as Texas. Classic example of supposed states rights trumping other states. Then there’s pollution standards, where pollution doesn’t respect borders drawn on a map.

    Referencing the last R post, should things like age of consent laws really differ from state to state? Is a child in West Virginia really different from a child of the same age in California?

    I don’t have a hard and fast line, but states rights were established in a time period when there wasn’t a lot of travel between states, and done to appease states to ratifying the Constitution.

  66. You make a good point about consent laws.

    Your text book example, while also a fair point if true, doesn’t exist here in Michigan. I suspect that one is exaggerated. Besides, I’m betting the Texas books aren’t so watered down in the first place, compared to other books. Just absent the slant of some of your pet politics that have hitherto been the norm in school books.

    As for some of your other ideas, don’t you realize the more the Federal Government grows, the more faint your voice becomes? You really want power concentrated in the hands of quite possibly the most corrupt and just down right weirdest people in America?
    You want to give guys like John Boehner and Barney Frank more sway over your town, your county, your community?

    Want to know what’s not a straw man?

    The government is bankrupt.

    With your expansion of jurisdiction comes the expansion of a bureaucracy we can’t afford.

    You can pretend all you want. You might even get another decade of robbing the future. The end will come sooner or later.

    Give me an amendment to the Constitution that requires each year bought and paid for and I would be the most compromising motherfucker in the nation.

  67. “I don’t have a hard and fast line, but states rights were established in a time period when there wasn’t a lot of travel between states. . . ”

    Other way around GK.

    I am also confident that you’d feel differently if fed policy conflicted with your views.

  68. “I don’t have a hard and fast line, but states rights were established in a time period when there wasn’t a lot of travel between states, and done to appease states to ratifying the Constitution.”

    The country is called The United States of America for a reason.

    Whenever you’re ready for the next civil war, go ahead and try to amend the constitution to take away that “appeasement.”

  69. ““Diplomacy is about winning.”

    ‘Diplomacy is about you winning while simultaneously convincing your adversary that he has also won…whether he has or not.’

    Nonsense. Diplomacy is the art of saying, “Nice Doggy!” until you can find a rock. (HT to Will Rogers)

  70. “It is worth repeating that Ron Paul is not an isolationist but a non-interventionist.

    Rabbit one key ingredient to putting our financial house in order is to stop policing the world. We can no longer afford it. ”

    Yes, foreign adventuring – and debasement of the currency, of course, have led to 100% of the ultimate failures of nations, (but who’s counting?) As folks like to say, association is not causation…LOL

  71. “Referencing the last R post, should things like age of consent laws really differ from state to state? Is a child in West Virginia really different from a child of the same age in California?”

    Not really. In both cases, a virgin is a nine year-old girl who can outrun her father and all her brothers.

  72. The Iranian scientist, Mostafa Ahmadi Roshan, was likely killed by Jundallah, a terrorist group formed by Israeli agents posing as American CIA. And it is terrorism, no matter what some claim. That is how it has been received and addressed.

    A series of CIA memos describes how Israeli Mossad agents posed as American spies to recruit members of the terrorist organization Jundallah to fight their covert war against Iran.

    Buried deep in the archives of America’s intelligence services are a series of memos, written during the last years of President George W. Bush’s administration, that describe how Israeli Mossad officers recruited operatives belonging to the terrorist group Jundallah by passing themselves off as American agents. According to two U.S. intelligence officials, the Israelis, flush with American dollars and toting U.S. passports, posed as CIA officers in recruiting Jundallah operatives — what is commonly referred to as a “false flag” operation.

    The memos, as described by the sources, one of whom has read them and another who is intimately familiar with the case, investigated and debunked reports from 2007 and 2008 accusing the CIA, at the direction of the White House, of covertly supporting Jundallah — a Pakistan-based Sunni extremist organization. Jundallah, according to the U.S. government and published reports, is responsible for assassinating Iranian government officials and killing Iranian women and children.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/13/false_flag

  73. Remember the Iranian guy who got busted plotting to “assassinate” Saudi and other diplomats in the US?

    What has he been charged with?

    “…conspiracy to kill a foreign official, conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction and conspiracy to commit an act of international terrorism and other charges.”

    Looks like “assassinating” non-combatants is considered terrorism these days. US policy contractors really should get up to speed with these types of things…..

  74. Kat, let me clarify again. My sister worked for the same multinational company that I know R worked for. I don’t know about you. I assumed you’d worked for the same organization as R. Also, I forgot about Poolman, so I owe another apology.
    Since I’ve totally exhausted all I have to say about Bain Capital, let’s move on to Part 2 of the post: superPACS. You should live in Florida, which is the next primary after SC. Last week the ads started appearing. First, anti-Newt. Next, anti-Santorum. (Apparently,no one else is worth bothering about.) Both brought to you by the Romney superPAC Restore Our America. Santorum does not have to money to fight; Newt, rather, his superPAC (which he has nothing to do with) just got a $5 million infusion of cash from a single donor. Apparently he does not have the organization to hit the ground running, so to speak. By the time he gets to FL it will be too late. Not that I’m sorry to hear that. But don’t worry–whatever state you live in, your time is coming. You too will then get to hear the biggest lies and distortions we’ve ever seen in politics. All I can say is, what was SCOTUS thinking?
    On the other hand, it really does no good to bemoan the influence of big money on politics, Citizens United or no Citizens United, for this simple reason: it has always, always, been this way since the (“sacred”) founding of the country. The Citizens United decision just made it legit. It was already an open secret.

  75. A further word about my sister. She worked for an unnamed multinational company for some time after graduating from college, then switched to another. After more time, the new company (okay let’s just say it–IBM) sold it back to the first company she originally worked for (AT&T). Then after several years, AT&T sold it BACK

  76. Sorry…hit enter too quickly. The job never changed–only the “owner” of the job. During her last few years with both AT&T and IBM, her team “partnered” with their international “partners”, particularly in India, and I’m sure you can guess what’s coming. As soon as the Indian “partners” were sufficiently trained, every member of my sister’s team was fired. Or, I believe, the polite term is laid off. (Except, it’s permanent.) At that point, her longevity, experience,and income level were all factors that were not in her favor. After about a year, she got a job as a contractor with a private company that provides people to—AT&T. It’s all quite ironic. Her difficulties are compounded by the fact that her knowledge is very specialized. She’s a tech person, not a manager. I’ve concluded that the only way to have a safe job is to work in some capacity which requires a physical presence and therefore cannot be outsourced. Because everything that can be, will be. Unfortunately, that leaves a big market open for people cooking hamburgers at McDonald’s.

  77. Ah, FN2, got it. No, never worked for either of those companies, though I certainly know people that have and that have had the same experience as your sister.

    I used to live in Florida so I know what you’re talking about with the ads and the primary run up. Washington is not as much a swing state and Seattle not at all up for grabs so I personally don’t get bombarded during a Republican primary.

  78. Thanks, Kat, for understanding. I sort of envy you living in WA if you can escape the bombardment. I was thinking that one of the nice things about having an incumbent Democratic President who will not be challenged is that, as a registered Democrat, I get to escape the primary madness. (In FL, you can’t vote in the primary for the other party unless you switch your registration. Then you can change it back after the primary and before the election. I think this is…um, unethical.) The 2008 Democratic primary drove me fairly nuts with anxiety. I was literally conflicted until the very day I voted, between Obama and Clinton. (I voted for Obama.)

  79. Actually, the Dem primary caucus here in Washington in 2008 was kind of fun, first time I’d ever been to a caucus. Kerry had wrapped it up in 2004, there was no challenger to Gore in 2000 or Clinton in 1996 (when I arrived in Seattle). So it was actually still worth participating in 2008. I very much favored Hillary, but didn’t hate Obama. I still believe either of them would have been 10000 times better than McCain. My cynicism now doesn’t drive me towards the Republicans, but I’m less and less interested in which corporate-bought candidate wins, other than repeating the 6 years when Republicans had control over Congress and the White House scares the crap out of me.

  80. I hate to admit this, but I never knew WA has a caucus instead of a primary. It seems to me like a very civilized way to do it, not as impersonal. Unless it becomes uncivil…like some of the Town Hall meetings we were subjected to by the Tea Party. I wouldn’t know. the only state I ever lived in that had a caucus was Iowa, and I was there at the wrong time.

  81. “like some of the Town Hall meetings we were subjected to by the Tea Party.”

    I agree. Those town halls were so….I don’t know…uncivilized.

    Who did those people think they were?

    I heard some of them yelled and stuff. That was messed up. It must have been terrible for you especially, fakename. You disagreed with them and stuff. That’s bull shit. Nest time that happens you should call the police or the gestapo or something.

    They proved town hall meetings shouldn’t exist.

    I can’t believe we were “subjected” to that.

    You do know our blog owner came out with an amazing expose proving those Tea Party people caused Gabrielle Giffords to be shot in the head, right?

    Yup.

    They also hung a census worker. Bastards.

    One guy brought a fire arm, but he turned out to be black so it was really weird. We only showed his boots.

    It was a sobering wake up call for me. I don’t know about you, but when I disagree with policy, I will NOT do the irresponsible thing and exercise the 1st amendment and show up at Town Halls. And, any kind of emotion or passion should NOT be tolerated. Fakename is out there and shouldn’t have to put up with that. She takes out on her cats.

    They should have taken a much more sophisticated path that we saw on the left this year. You know. Shut down ports, fight cops, shoot up smack, abandon babies, masturbate in public, rape, steal, defecate….

    But, yell at a Congressman?

  82. Part 3 of the post: Pissing On The Enemy. R—this is the most sensitive of the issues you commented on, IMO. As you point out, it has become somehow sacreligious to criticize either the military or any of its members. But this part took me back…to Vietnam. Which remains a reference point, even if some people don’t get it
    Sometimes, you can understand a behavior without condoning it. The behavior is repulsive. Should they be court-martialed? Of course. It’s for one thing against the Geneva Convention. I hope no one tells me they are outdated. John McCain absolutely had this right: the reason we don’t do things like this is that it encourages others to do the same thing to us. Will they still do it anyway? Yes. Should we then do it too? And descend into savagery? And what about who we are supposed to be? What about that Shining City on a Hill?
    But that big picture stuff probably does not really apply much here. We don’t know what happened just prior to this incident. And by the way, who took the damn picture? Did these dead people kill one of their friends before dying? Good judgement and training flies out the window in the face of some situations. Plus a herd mentality takes over (think, My Lai.) These guys are in a lot of trouble, but I have sympathy for them. Somehow we expect average people to suddenly behave like saints when they join the military. Even though they are under stress that we can only imagine. They are never safe. Could die any minute. As in…die.

  83. Well said.

    The track record, when we consider how many people have served in Iraq/ Afghanistan, how many are young men and how unbelievable the stress is in theater, is actually amazing.

    I wonder how many college campus riots there were this year. Or how many girls were raped in dorms?

    You don’t see Rutherford breaking down college kids in psychological categories in which 1/3 decide to go to college for blood lust.

  84. Rabbit. Clearly I’m deluded. It must be a good idea to go scream like a maniac in public. Exercise your First Amendment rights and all. In my opinion, screaming should be confined to your own home, when a referee makes what you think is a bad call during a football game. And then, only when no one else is at home. If you are referring to Occupy Fill In The Blank, I don’t like them either. The difference between defecating on a police car and screaming at a Town Hall meeting is merely a matter of degree.
    For the record, it isn’t “cats”, it’s “cat”. One. And she never defecates on police cars nor makes a fool of herself in public.

  85. “The difference between defecating on a police car and screaming at a Town Hall meeting is merely a matter of degree.”

    Uh……yeah….well….outside of one being illegal and the other protected by the Constitution.

    As for you cat, live a little. Let your hair down and take that pussy out of the house for a little fun now and then.

    Hold up a second, my gold medallion necklace was tangled in my chest hair and my track suit zipper was stuck, it was distracting me from sexually harassing you.

  86. I think R got it right when he described the 3 categories of people who join the military. I differ that a draft would be different. Because it those are the 3 categories, then you would get the same percentage as with a draft. Plus when we did have a draft, people still volunteered. The difference with the draft is that you get a lot more people who don’t want to be there. I don’t know the answer.

  87. My nephew just joined the Air Force. He worked for a pizza place during HS and for some time after he graduated. Then he attended auto mechanic school and worked for a road contractor after graduation, keeping all the big equipment running. We thought he was good with that career, knowing that there was plenty of work in that field, and it pays well.

    He did that for awhile and got bored with it or tired of the folks he was working with. Either way, $30K worth of schooling didn’t seem to matter at that point. He turned down several opportunities in the same field that would have provided him good income and benefits.

    Then he got back into restaurants and waited tables for a bit.

    Several months ago he decided to join the service. His dad was AF and was laid off when they downsized sometime in the late 80’s early 90’s. His dad would still be in if he hadn’t been laid off. He had worked on F14’s, I believe, along with his ex-wife. They had met while stationed in Lakenheath, England.

    My nephew said his field was cyber blah blah blah. I don’t recall the rest of the technical name. He always was a computer nerd and big time gamer. He was always upgrading his system to stay up with the others he competed against in those computer games.

    I told him he would likely be spying on American citizens as they interact on the web or controlling drones doing the same, since there is a large contingent doing just that right now.

    He shrugged and said, yeah, unfortunately that was probably true.

    It certainly isn’t the same battlefield today.

  88. I met some fine young men yesterday who were on maneuvers. They were using our municipal airport and had been for several days; in gratitude they set up for the public a static display of their humvees, Strikers, several helicopter gunships and my personal favorite, the V22 Osprey. Geezus – that damned thing doesn’t fly; it beats the air into submission. Two engines, 12K BHP each.

    These fellows were just amazing – smart, polite, well motivated, well trained. Everything that kids coming out of our high schools are NOT. Goes to show you what motivated kids in real schools can accomplish. It was a real privilege to talk with each and every one of them and I told them so. Damned shame to put that kind of talent into learning how to kill people. Oh well, there’s no help for it; has to be done.

  89. Interesting comment from one of the Marine corporals. They had a 9mm Beretta on display; this fellow was clearly very knowledgeable about firearms and I asked him why in the hell the military had dumped the 1911 .45 for a f**ing 9mm toy.

    He never batted an eye. “Women, sir. Women.” The Colt is too big for their hands and the recoil is too heavy; they can’t hold onto it. The 9mm is smaller and has less recoil.”

    I said, “Yeah, I hear you; I’ve got one. It will just piss the enemy off if you shoot them with it.”

    “I know, sir; our special forces units use the .45.”

  90. That is possibly the most idiotic comment I’ve ever seen here among many. So let’s do a test. I’ll shoot you with a 9mm toy, which does in fact fit my hands better and has less recoil. Then let’s see if you can still shoot me back with your.45. How ignorant can you get.

  91. This beer I’m quaffing is for Martin Luther King.

    For starters, I got the day off.

    I’ve always been a big believer that humans move history just as much as economics or other macro stuff. Had there been no MLK, I’m not sure his shoes would have been filled by another person.

    The ramifications of this could have been horrible.

    The Black Panther or Elijah Muhammad types could have held much more sway. How we got out of the 1960’s without a militant black terrorist group blowing shit up amazing.

    In my eyes, black people had every right to go to war.

    Would you go to war if you were a second class citizen? I think I would. I know my brothers and friends would.

    Along with MLK, we can thank the influence of Christianity. They were two sides of the same coin.

    No need to set my alarm for Monday morning. I’m cracking another beer open. My fist is in the air, motherfuckers.

  92. I find Huntsman’s timing bizarre. He JUST appeared in the Huckabee Forum yesterday and got an endorsement from a powerful SC newspaper. Maybe coming in 4% behind Stephen Colbert’s 5% was just more humiliation than he could bear?

    And of course, he probably ran out of money and Daddy closed his wallet. Romney will probably help him pay off debts.

    Huck, I doubt Huntsman will be offered a VP slot. Pawlenty also endorsed Romney. Romney needs a fire cracker to ensure he beats Obama. Huntsman (and Pawlenty for that matter) ain’t it.

    Look for Rubio or Christie to get an offer. They make sense to me. But then what do I know … I’m a lib. 😐

  93. whats the difference between an isolationist and a non-interventionist?

    I’m way behind on comments and will answer more stuff on the holiday tomorrow (even though I will actually have some work to do so not a complete holiday for me).

    I believe an isolationist thinks we can be completely self-sustaining. Ron Paul believes in the global economy. He believes in economic interdependence (as far as I know). I’m sure he also believes in military intervention where America’s interests are clearly and directly at stake.

    The only military action we’ve taken in the past ten years that meets this litmus test is our initial invasion of Afghanistan which we then botched with the detour into Iraq. Now that Osama is dead and al Qaeda a shell of its former self, it’s time to come home.

  94. What same unnamed multinational?

    Kat, FN knows the company of which I speak because she and I are friends on Facebook.

    I prefer to call it Acme Anvils because my wife still works there and I don’t want negative things I’ve said about the place traced back to her.As Poolman mentioned earlier … she is the primary person “bringing home the bacon”. …. and the insurance coverage!!! 😦

  95. These guys are in a lot of trouble, but I have sympathy for them. Somehow we expect average people to suddenly behave like saints when they join the military. Even though they are under stress that we can only imagine. They are never safe. Could die any minute. As in…die.

    Yes … and no.

    Here’s my take. There were four guys. My guess is one guy was a sadistic bastard you wouldn’t let near any of your loved ones. Another one or two of them are your basic frat boys who might not have thought of the pissing stuff themselves but had fun joining in. The fourth guy was a “follower”, a weak coward who probably did all sorts of stupid crap in civilian life trying to fit in with the big boys. On his own, he would never have dreamed of pissing on a corpse but he’s so afraid of being uncool that he just has to join the other three.

    One of our friends who no longer comments here but writes me privately all the time shared that on his first day in Vietnam, a fellow soldier walked up to him and said “wanna buy some pictures of dead gooks?” Sure enough he had the photos in his hand. Our friend could not be sure if this guy was warped by war or enlisted as a sick mofo.

    I’m not a big believer in war turning angels into monsters. I do believe in war bringing out the dormant monsters in otherwise normal looking folks.

    I’m sure the vets on this board (Rabbit, G) would tell me I have no right to judge those who keep me safe. Sorry to disappoint you but the “pissers” are scum. I hope they get the (military) book thrown at them.

  96. OK I lied … as usual I have no self control and went through all the comments. Great discussions and it’s great to see everybody piping in including the return of Fakename2 who’s been gone for a while.

    Rabbit, I have to agree that while the “angry black man” in me favors the early Malcolm X, the sensible part of me feels that MLK had the right approach. Hell … even Malcolm eventually believed that MLK had the right approach … and he paid for it with his life …. as did MLK.

    And yes, I will fully acknowledge that MLK being rooted in Christianity was a plus, not a minus for him. However if I am not mistaken, it was Malcolm’s trip to Mecca that turned him from a violent Black Muslim to just a normal Muslim. Islam didn’t have the rep then that it does now.

  97. Regarding 128, oh well I wrote that before getting through the entire thread. Guess the cat’s out of the bag.

    Well, I’ll continue to call it Acme Anvils for the sake of those who never read this thread. 😉

    P.S. FWIW, I was there 24 years and the first 15 were absolutely sensational. Things went downhill in the last 9.

  98. “Sorry, R. I know you hate firearms. So do I, actually.”

    Sorry about your problem there. Firearms are actually a pretty good way to kill the enemy, which is, of course, the object of the exercise. I would prefer the girls stay home and not put everybody else’s lives at risk if they can’t handle the equipment.

  99. “I’m sure the vets on this board (Rabbit, G) would tell me I have no right to judge those who keep me safe. Sorry to disappoint you but the “pissers” are scum. I hope they get the (military) book thrown at them.”

    Rutherford – being dogmatic is generally the road to error, but having said that, I am very, very careful about judging the ordinary foot soldier during wartime. If there were ever a time to say, “You have no concept of what they do or right to criticise these people,” I would be tempted to say it about the combat soldier. Their officers are an entirely different matter.

    Personally, from the perspective of the dead man, I find it a little silly that, having taken from him everything he has and ever will have, that people focus on a ten-second piss.

  100. The ghost of Curator? How couragous…

    First off, they will have the book thrown at them and yes, you really don’t have a right to judge, but being a liberal we know that is what you guys do best- judge others.

    I don’t remember hearing an outcry from the left when the soldiers were dragged through the streets of Mogadesu, or when the soldiers in Iraq were beheaded and disembowled on video.In fact, the only time I ever hear the left get pissy about war is when our guys get acused of doing something- regardless of whether it actually happened or not (read Newsweek’s claim of flushing Qurans, which was untrue).

    Tell me R, have you ever read about the exploits of the Taliban? Should I recount the stories of then telling children that the suicide vest they are wearing won’t hurt them? How about the women and children killed from their enforcement of sharia?

    I don’t condone what the Marines did, nor do I excuse it, because we are better than that. But there is a part of me that recognizes that they probably deserved to be pissed on. We’re held to far higher standards than the Taliban, right or wrong, and unfortunately our mistakes get magnified a thousand times by none other than our own side.

  101. “Careful Rabbit, they’ll kick your ass out of the Olympics for that.”-T

    And destroy four years of my training for Rhythmic Gymnastics, the Rabbit being the first Olympian to break the gender barrier? Awww hell no!

  102. “That is possibly the most idiotic comment I’ve ever seen here among many. So let’s do a test. I’ll shoot you with a 9mm toy, which does in fact fit my hands better and has less recoil. Then let’s see if you can still shoot me back with your.45. How ignorant can you get.”

    The answer is contained in you comment. When it comes to ignorance, you’ve certainly tested the limits. 🙄

  103. If the marines have the book thrown at them, there are those who will open the book on others, Panetta being one. So it goes…

    Thank God for heroes with vision. Those that place the cause of justice above their very lives, whether in uniform or not.

  104. I don’t condone what the Marines did, nor do I excuse it, because we are better than that. But there is a part of me that recognizes that they probably deserved to be pissed on. We’re held to far higher standards than the Taliban, right or wrong, and unfortunately fortunately our mistakes get magnified a thousand times by none other than our own side.

    Well said G, but I offered a slight correction. The fact that we take these indiscretions seriously is what makes us the light of the world. Our public condemnation of this behavior followed up by proper punishment is what redeems us. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

    If I see a guy throw acid in a young girl’s face, a girl who just wants to go to school, I’d want to kill the guy, strip him, and hang him in the public square to be eaten by vultures. But controlling that understandable urge is what is called the high road.

    The cop who shoots the unarmed child rapist in the head instead of arresting him might have our understanding, but he can never have our support.

    Enough said. I mean no insult to the military at large. But every group is compromised by its weakest members.

  105. For the next ten minutes, I hereby bend down and give permission to anyone on this board to kick me in the ass. I just watched Huntsman endorse Mitt Romney. What a spineless dweeb. Less than a week ago, the dude said in New Hampshire that Romney’s way of thinking was “what is wrong in America right now” and today he endorses him.

    I can’t blame Huntsman for dropping out of the race. But immediately endorsing Romney? Talk about a flip-flopper with no core.

    Is politics just a joke boys and girls? Seriously … are we all just wasting a vast amount of time talking about this stuff?

    So for all my prior support of Huntsman, I hereby bend over.

    Take your best shot. 😦

  106. Is politics just a joke boys and girls? Seriously … are we all just wasting a vast amount of time talking about this stuff?

    Is Kabuki a waste of time? It serves the purpose it was designed for. It keeps us from looking behind the curtain.

  107. But every group is compromised by its weakest members. — Me

    By the way, that is the only reason why I am sometimes incredibly embarrassed to be black.

    When I was in high school I had this huge crush on a girl who was in my math and Spanish class. We were two of few kids sitting in the classroom one day when a black hip-swinging, jive-talking fool strutted into the classroom. I was mortified and so afraid that the girl would associate me with him. Poor fool had no idea he was not only demeaning himself but an entire group of people with his stupid behavior. It’s the same reason many folks of Italian heritage protested “Jersey Shore”.

    My guess is there are more than a few soldiers really pissed (pardon the pun) at those four Marines for making their jobs harder.

  108. Is politics just a joke boys and girls? Seriously … are we all just wasting a vast amount of time talking about this stuff?-R

    Huntsman led you to this conclusion? Not the guy who stood in front of the fake Greek pillars you made an ass of yourself for, pom poms and mini-skirt included?

    You are fake as Huntsman or what ever his name is.

    Its hilarious to see the things you were so passionate about 36 months ago, compared to now.

  109. “My guess is there are more than a few soldiers really pissed (pardon the pun) at those four Marines for making their jobs harder.”

    Then follow your own advice and stop going as far as breaking our troops down into a few psychological categories over the actions of a few.
    .

  110. “I’ve always been a big believer that humans move history just as much as economics or other macro stuff.”

    “Great Man” theory.

    I find it interesting to ponder, as well.

    “However if I am not mistaken, it was Malcolm’s trip to Mecca that turned him from a violent Black Muslim to just a normal Muslim.”

    You are not mistaken.

    “We’re held to far higher standards than the Taliban, right or wrong, and unfortunately our mistakes get magnified a thousand times by none other than our own side.”

    And that right there is EXACTLY why I reacted the way I did when those “bloopers” were posted. Because we ARE better than that.

    Allen West, however, can kiss my ass. I don’t respond to his shutuppery any more than when it comes from the left.

  111. There are idiots in every category that those of us with similar interests or backgrounds wish to distance ourselves from.

    Look at all the outspoken idiot “Christians” in the world. Yet I adhere to that ideology. And yes, the Italian in me would distance itself from the Jersey Shore crowd, though I really am not familiar with that show.

    How about all the idiot Americans that “speak” for us or represent us to the world? Or the liberals and conservatives that act out in public and supposedly “speak” for us. We all know how our own credibility is constantly attacked for those associations.

    I’m certain there have been many incidents of soldiers pissing on “the enemy”. After all, in our culture we have multiple images of Calvin pissing on all kinds of people and things that we display prominently in our vehicle rear windows. It is a way of debasing what we don’t like.

    But now we have a video that has gone viral. Physical evidence like this doesn’t just go away. We are forced to deal with it. However, if we just punish the “kids” in the video, we are only sending the message “don’t leave evidence and don’t get caught.” We have done nothing to address the core of the issue.

  112. “So for all my prior support of Huntsman, I hereby bend over.”

    Did I miss the ten-minute window?

    R, I know you repeat the MSNBC pot-stirrers, but you didn’t really support Huntsman did you? How could you? He was the one you and MSNBC held out as the truest conservative of the bunch.

  113. “And that right there is EXACTLY why I reacted the way I did when those “bloopers” were posted. Because we ARE better than that.”

    Huck, you are better than that. Diminishing your enemy in “bloopers” videos has no comparison whatsoever.

  114. but you didn’t really support Huntsman did you?

    This might not sound like a ringing endorsement but of all the folks in the clown car, I would’ve been least embarrassed to say my President was Huntsman. The man had a dignity and gentleness that I found refreshing. What always miffed me was how most of you took his politeness to mean he was a RINO, not understanding that a conservative doesn’t have to behave like an assh*le.

    But alas, some of you may have seen something I missed, namely that he lacked conviction, proven by his about-face on Romney.

  115. “What always miffed me was how most of you took his politeness to mean he was a RINO, not understanding that a conservative doesn’t have to behave like an assh*le.”

    I don’t recall anything to that effect being said here.

    Indeed, what you just said describes Reagan, a man most like what we wish we had in the race.

    But we certainly saw (or didn’t see) something different than you did.

    I think his “conviction” is not properly called into question by his support of Romney if his conviction was to defeat Obama (as it surely is).

    I suggest you figure out how to sell Obama’s record. Much of your confusion results from legerdemain, i.e. the liberal media’s use of the GOP nomination to avoid scrutiny of Obama’s pathetic record and immense shortcomings.

  116. the liberal media’s use of the GOP nomination to avoid scrutiny of Obama’s pathetic record and immense shortcomings.

    Do you realize how bizarre that comment is? The media, liberal or otherwise, covers stories that sell. The GOP nomination process has provided an abundance of entertainment … far more entertaining than Solyndra.

    It has nothing to do with avoiding scrutiny of Obama’s record. It has to do with selling air time and print.

  117. “It has nothing to do with avoiding scrutiny of Obama’s record. It has to do with selling air time and print.”

    Bullshit.

  118. “Now you’re comparing fact to fiction?”

    According to Huck dehumanizing is dehumanizing.

    Ever seen a WWII propaganda film?

  119. Seriously. The bloopers videos didn’t show “us” doing anything to the terrorist (pissing on their bodies). They killed themselves in their attempt to kill.

    Talk about false equivalency.

  120. Pfesser, I prefer to believe the commenter on the YouTube page:

    This is a LIE!: On November 22, an individual claiming to be a “brain surgeon” made several statements referencing neurosurgical care on a Mark Levin radio show segment. The American Association of Neurological Surgeons (AANS) and the Congress of Neurological Surgeons (CNS) are unaware of any federal government document directing that advanced neurosurgery for patients over 70 years of age will not be indicated and only supportive care treatment will be provided.

    The guy is full of sh*t. You’re the second person on this blog to post some guy calling into a right wing radio show, and then cite it as authoritative. You’re smarter than that Pfesser.

    Over a year ago, a very upset liberal called my “radio show” complaining about Obama. That upset liberal turned out to be …

    Dead Rabbit.

    😐

  121. I shall snope it. If I posted it in error, accept my apology. I generally don’t get caught up in hoaxes, but we shall see…we shall see..

  122. “Over a year ago, a very upset liberal called my “radio show” complaining about Obama. That upset liberal turned out to be …

    Dead Rabbit.”

    Too funny. Which show?

  123. Apology accepted PF.

    And for the rest of you guys and gals … in the future, please post crackpots calling into right wing radio when you want to give me a good hearty laugh. Please don’t do it to prove a point.

    P.S. I doubt that true neurosurgeons refer to themselves as “brain surgeons”. That should have been the first tip off that the guy was full of crap. It’s like a cardiologist dialing in and calling himself “a heart doctor”. 😐

    PF is smart enough to do some due diligence upon request. Mark Levin is a moron.

  124. Which show?

    Damn, I wish I could tell you offhand. I’d have to play a few episodes to find it cos it was back in the days when I wasn’t putting different titles on each episode.

    Hey Rabbit, do you recall approximately when it was? (I may also be able to find it by searching the blog cos it came up in the comments section as well.)

  125. So rabbit doesn’t drive a Prius? I wonder if that pothole to Hades got filled in. 😆 That was entertaining, liberal voice and all.

  126. “I don’t condone what the Marines did, nor do I excuse it, because we are better than that. But there is a part of me that recognizes that they probably deserved to be pissed on.”

    I’m just relieved they didn’t behead them and hang the heads on poles!

  127. Is politics just a joke boys and girls? Seriously … are we all just wasting a vast amount of time talking about this stuff?

    Rutherford, you have finally caught on. I think Kat did a good job stating clowns to the left/jokers to the right.

  128. “Then war movies (and hell, most action movies) must tear you up.”

    The ones that portray historical-based death and suffering do tear me up. I tear up when I watch the beach landing on Saving Private Ryan every damn time.

    “Seriously. The bloopers videos didn’t show “us” doing anything to the terrorist (pissing on their bodies). They killed themselves in their attempt to kill. ”

    You still don’t get it.

    My criticism was not of the videos. It was of your reaction to them. Laughing at the sight of a real human being getting blown to bits. Knowing that it was not a clip from the latest Arnold movie, but a real person dying there on your screen.

  129. As for #135, yes citizens including R, whether they have ever been in the military or not, do have the right to judge. If we don’t police ourselves,then who should we allow to do it? The Taliban? The EU? And you never saw any horror or criticism from “liberals” about Mogadishu or the beheadings by Al Queda? Really? You are in that case leading a very sheltered life.

  130. “My criticism was not of the videos. It was of your reaction to them. Laughing at the sight of a real human being getting blown to bits. Knowing that it was not a clip from the latest Arnold movie, but a real person dying there on your screen.”

    That’s a fair criticism, actually. However, I’m not sure that has always been your stance on this one.

    Let me ask you this, if it could be any way established that showing suicide bombers as bumbling bafoons, tripping into their paradise of 98 virgins like Chris Farley, stops a potential suicide bomber, should the videos not be released?

    Tigre’s videos are classic cases of propaganda, even if they are made by civilians.

    Should Tigre enjoy them?

    I’m not sure I can judge him on that one. They show instances where enemies of America are failing to kill the troops or even women and children. While I also try to avoid seeing violence, personally, i don’t give a damn how someone else processes it.

  131. Before this day is over, I just wanted to comment on the celebration of the birth of Martin Luther King, Jr. The “I’ve been to the mountaintop” speech never fails to move me, when he says, “I may not get there with you.” He gave that speech on April 3, 1968, and was assassinated the next day. I lived in Memphis then. It changed my life. It’s sobering to remember that he’s been dead longer than he was alive.

  132. “Laughing at the sight of a real human being getting blown to bits”

    Failing in their mission to blow real human beings to bits.

    Rabbit, those were Gorilla’s videos. I just responded to Huck’s sympathy for the terrorists, particularly the one ineptly prancing around with the gun in his training exercise (I think I called him Pajama bin Laden).

    Sorry dude. I feel no remorse for violent murderers for the same reason you do — they are “real human beings” failing in their attempts to kill real human beings. I am glad they failed whether I saw, read, or heard about it.

    Huck, mocking them is empowering. It’s also the same reason that you sympathize with them and lecture others for failing to do the same.

    The car ad is great. If only it were real.

  133. Pajama bin Laden…..

    I should start calling my wife that. She works from home, never getting out of her pajamas of late. 5 and half months pregnant….constantly threatening me.

    _____________________
    As I’ve mentioned before, my 2 year old keeps digging into his diaper and smearing shit all over the place when he is in bed.

    He’s done it like 6 times, now. The last time he did it, my wife literally cried. I’m not man enough to clean it up….plus, I take care of getting little man clean.

    The last poop bomb, I told my wife I think he is doing it for attention. He gets a warm bath and controls us.

    So, despite protests from my wife, I changed it up on little man.

    I gave him a cold ass shower. He was shaking cold and acted like I was water boarding him when I sprayed his head (he had poop all in his hair). I repeatedly told him that you don’t touch poop.

    This morning, I walk into the room and he tells me “No poop in the bed. Poop in the diaper. He turned around and bent over, showing me his packed diaper, untouched.

    So proud of the little guy. Plus, he proved me right!

    I changed his diaper and told him how proud I was of him and he gave me this look I’ve never seen before. He was clearly happy he made his old man proud.

  134. Dead rabbit, the child psychologist. Good show, maaan!

    As to the pajama wife…

    I call my wife “robe girl” cause she comes to bed with her robe anymore. Says she’s cold. I asked her what happened “naked girl”, the one I married and slept with all those years. She reminds me that she morphed into “nightie girl”, then “pajama girl”, and now, well robe girl. 😐

    Regarding certain things, it’s a bitch getting older. 😀

  135. Since R works from home, maybe. . . Pajama bin Blogging?

    LOL, oddly I’m the only one in the house who gets dressed first thing, before breakfast or anything else. Given the opportunity my daughter stays in her PJ’s as long as possible. My wife, who works from home as well, has been known to stay in jammies well into the morning.

  136. Rabbit, congrats on getting the kid to observe some proper personal hygiene for a 2 year old. And to think you used torture to do it!! Dubya and Cheney would be so proud! 😀

    As for your voice, and I’m not just currying favor, I think you have a fine voice for radio. But then what do I know? I sound like a cross between Demi Moore and a Jewish octogenarian. 😐

  137. I just read most of Willie Geist’s “American Freak Show” (I skimmed some of the chapters). I highly recommend it. It’s a hoot. Some sample chapter topics:

    Tiger Woods first day at a sexaholic rehab center
    Bernie Madoff getting a Dean Martin style roast in hell hosted by Pol Pot
    Correspondence between slick willy and Hillary during the 2008 race
    Recorded conversations of Rod Blago
    John Edwards trying to convince Saint Peter to let him into heaven

    Like I said, it’s trivial but a fun read if you want to have a chuckle.

    P.S. My public library lets me borrow Kindle versions of some books. I can’t tell you how friggin convenient it is. So far, I’ve borrowed a book on the 2011/2012 primary race, the book by Geist and I’m now reading Christopher Hitchens “God is Not Great” (aside to Pfesser, you’ve GOT to read this if you haven’t already).

  138. Even the far-Right Washington times is tired of Gingrich and Palin:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jan/15/curl-goodbye-newt-and-good-riddance/

    It’s about goddamned time some influential folks in the ReBiblican party catch up to where many of us former Republicans have been for ages. It’s like investing: you need to cut your losses, apply your resources to your winners, and for god’s sake, show some discipline. Showing a little principle wouldn’t hurt, either.

    Re: God is not Great. Way ahead of you, R. I pretty much burned through the Hitchens library last winter. He has a great bio on Jefferson and quite a collection of essays on Franklin – you know, those two devoutly religious Founding Fathers who wrote God into the Constitution…

  139. DR –

    re: wife threatening you. Buy a paddle. And use it a couple of times – just sort of kidding around, but not really; every time she threatens you, you tell her maybe she needs a little straightening out, since she is “acting immaturely”. She’s kidding, you’re kidding. heh…heh…It also might lead to some hot sex. Just a little advice from my friends in the adult industry. No charge.

    re: poo bombs. You already hit on the answer. I did the same when my kids got into the “tantrum” age. You just pick them up off the floor and put them in a cold shower – with their clothes on. Not a word said. Just turn on the cold water. Automatic, no passion or anger. It takes about twice and its over. And no, they won’t catch cold – that takes a virus.

  140. Well said G, but I offered a slight correction. The fact that we take these indiscretions seriously is what makes us the light of the world. Our public condemnation of this behavior followed up by proper punishment is what redeems us. I wouldn’t have it any other way.” – R

    No.

    The left doesn’t magnify these events to be altruistic. They do it to score political points and to bring down the image of the military so they can redirect funding towards their social issues. And I’m sorry, I don’t hear the public saying a damn thing about this, just Huffpo and the Dailykos.

    And that right there is EXACTLY why I reacted the way I did when those “bloopers” were posted. Because we ARE better than that.” – Huck

    Those “bloppers” are war. If they act like keystone cops and die in the process, I see nothing wrong with laughing at them while they do it. I didn’t make Ahmed accidentally push the button Pissing on a dead body and watching a haji cross the wrong wires are not the same, nor are they close.

    There are two issues here with the Marines. One is them failing to act like Marines and the second is the political exploitation from the left. The Marines were wrong and they will be punished accordingly, but the left will use this all day long to say we need to pull money from the military to fund cross walks for turtles or some such bullshit.

    As for “dehumanizing”, are you serious? Really? The self-appointed Great Muslim Defender is angry at dehumanization? Do you not listen to the Islamists and Salafists of the world, who are quite possibly, the greatest dehumanizers of all.

    You might want to re-examine your “victim”.

    I think pretty much every single person I work with- maybe an exception or two- sees the Taliban and al-Qaida as humans. We see them as some pretty evil motherfuckers, but yes, we recognize them as human. We don’t make them less so that we can feel better about ourselves, which is one of the prime reasons any demographic dehumanizes another. Low self-esteem affects peoples as much as it does teenagers, which is why the Palestinians- and Muslims in general- hate the Israelis. They haven’t measured up and to make themselves feel better, they dehumanize the Jews. I’ve watched hundreds and hundreds of Salafist and Islamist propaganda, and a very large proportion of it contains a message geared towards a population with serious issues of self-worth. They know they suck too, but instead of reflecting on why they suck, they’d rather find a goat so they can feel better about sucking. Trust me, this is not unique to the Arab world, we have our own demographics here that refuse to reflect on their failings and choose to blame others for imaginary transgressions.

    My criticism was not of the videos. It was of your reaction to them. Laughing at the sight of a real human being getting blown to bits. Knowing that it was not a clip from the latest Arnold movie, but a real person dying there on your screen.” – Huck

    You know what, when I hear a murder is executed, I smile then too. I think you would be better served recognizing who it is you are shedding tears for.

  141. I believe we were talking about humanization…

    Anyone else need to take a whizzzz?

    Afghan boy suicide bombers tell how they are brainwashed into believing they will survive
    The mission was as simple as touching two wires together, the little boy was promised. The resulting blast would obliterate the American infidels – but God would spare him from the flame and shrapnel. Abdul Samat would be unharmed and free to run back to the men who had fitted his bomb vest.
    Blindfolded and rigged with his explosive payload, the boy, who was about 13, was driven to his target in the Afghan city of Kandahar, after being plucked from the streets of Quetta in neighbouring Pakistan. Minutes before he was due to execute the attack, however, Abdul realised the lies of his recruiters seeking to turn him into a human bomb.
    “When I opened my eyes, I saw it was a very black thing they wanted me to do,” he later recalled.
    “I began to cry and shout. People came out of their houses and asked what was wrong. I showed them I had something in my vest. Then they were scared too and called the police who took the bombs off me.”
    Afghan security officials say that Abdul’s story is not unusual. In the past year, insurgents have used a wave of child suicide bombers, some as young as 10, on the ruthless assumption that small boys can pass through checkpoints and security cordons more easily than men.

  142. That’s right, G. The key to elevating the road we take is to merely decrease the elevation of the road others take.

    Because, as long as the wrongs of others are worse than our wrongs, our wrongs don’t need to be scrutinized.

  143. “As for your voice, and I’m not just currying favor, I think you have a fine voice for radio.” R

    I think “Manny” sounded like he already had his Romney clothes pin on his nose. 🙂 That was great. Thanks for sharing guys.

  144. That’s right, G. The key to elevating the road we take is to merely decrease the elevation of the road others take.

    Because, as long as the wrongs of others are worse than our wrongs, our wrongs don’t need to be scrutinized.” – Huck

    LOL. Yup, that’s what I said, even if I didn’t say that. You diplomat types are so darn smart! Always finding the meaning you want versus the meaning stated. It’s a gift really.

    I believe the proper word is CONTEXT. I know it is a hard concept, especially for those who’ve never been in an environment full of gray, but it is an important premise to understand.

  145. Thor, I should clarify. Manny’s voice would get old pretty damn quickly but the real Rabbit was pretty good.

    I remember that night like it was yesterday. Rabbit must know a decent number of libs because he had me completely fooled, especially with the liberal anger at Obama not being radical enough. It’s ironic that Rabbit was right … Obama was not radical. He is the most moderate lib imaginable, something most of you fail to grasp, including Rabbit.

    I confess I felt a bit “violated” by the prank but I found it amusing just the same. I can’t say the same for my co-host. I think she was clearly pissed off. It had only been her third or fourth week on the show and I’m sure she was thinking “God, what other jokers is Rutherford going to bring onto the show?” She didn’t know me at all at the time and probably secretly thought I was in on the joke and had invited Rabbit to do it.

    Rabbit never did take me up on my offer for an ongoing segment, “A Minute with The Rabbit”. 😦

  146. Pfesser, since Tex is not here, I’ll give you his answer to Ben Franklin’s religious beliefs … “Franklin was a promiscuous degenerate so what should we expect from him?”

    🙂

  147. R, you need to replace your co host with Manny. The Meandering, nervous laughter , and half-finished sentences because she starts speaking before she thinks makes it a chore to listen. She really needs to formulate her thoughts in advance of the show or quit trying to pretend she has answer for every question provided she has enough time to stall.

    Manny was all there man. So far left he’s gravitating towards the Tea Party. 😆

    Funny thing was, all of that discussion could just as easily occurred today, but you wouldn’t have had the “it’s only been one year” excuse for Obama’s lack of accomplishment.

  148. Pfesser, since Tex is not here, I’ll give you his answer to Ben Franklin’s religious beliefs … “Franklin was a promiscuous degenerate so what should we expect from him?”

    Yes, I know – always the two-trick pony. Either attack the messenger (Franklin) or throw up a straw man. Never, never argue the point.

    Reminds me of Paul Simon:

  149. Really, without Tex here we’re probably way behind on emoticons and liberal slurs. I’ll try to do my part to catch us up…

    😐 😕 😛 🙂 😀 😆 👿 😈

    Franklin was a fairly wicked man from what I have discovered.

  150. Well Poolman I certainly can’t let Tex take the full rap on emoticons as I’m quite fond of them myself. 😳

    Tigre, in Sandi’s defense, that episode was only her 2nd or third and she’d never done anything like that before. She has improved considerably.

    Emulation can be a good thing. I think, putting aside the compromised quality of my voice, that I’m pretty good at it because I grew up on talk shows. I’ve “studied the masters”, Merv, Tom Snyder, Donahue and Larry King. Love ’em or hate ’em, they know how to converse with their guests. As far as I’m concerned, Larry King Live was just a televised radio show (of course, he had a radio show too).

    On the few times on the show when I actually rant, I reach in deep for my inner Ed Schultz.

    I have only one real gripe with my co-host and that is once she gets on a roll, I can’t get a word in edgewise.

  151. “I’ve “studied the masters”, Merv, Tom Snyder, Donahue and Larry King.”

    Geeez. And I thought you were a big fan of Morton Downey, Jr.

  152. I was very impressed with the “Manny” voice! Perhaps Rabbit has a career in the theater in his future? I’m confused about the motivation for the call, but on the other hand, being confused about Rabbit’s motivation is not a new thing for me.

  153. Rabbit
    Your son has learned the lesson of “consequences”. I laughed so hard and had to send the story to my daughter to point out that even a two year old can learn consequences.

  154. “I have only one real gripe with my co-host and that is once she gets on a roll, I can’t get a word in edgewise.”

    😆 That’s a woman for you

  155. “He [Ahmadinejad] seems like a nice man when he speaks to the UN.”

    LOL

    That WAS funny.

    G, I think there was touch of Poolman in there too. 🙂

    It’s a funny vid but you do Huck a disservice. IMHO, Huck has properly framed diplomacy. It is designed to be win-win where everyone walks away thinking they got something they wanted. I’m surprised you challenge that.

    In any case, thanks for the vid … it was a kick. Especially when the right wing guy finally loses it and reads her the riot act.

  156. Any comments on the Wikipedia blackout? Is this just not another way for the government to regulate the internet if these two bills pass or is this just another case of Congress pissing in the wind? I fear the former.

    “Two bills before Congress, known as the Protect IP Act (PIPA) in the Senate and the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) in the House, would censor the Web and impose harmful regulations on American business. Millions of Internet users and entrepreneurs already oppose SOPA and PIPA.

    Both bills are designed to crack down on sales of pirated American products overseas, and they have the support of the film and music industry. Among the opponents are many Internet companies such as Google, Facebook, Yahoo, Twitter, eBay and AOL. They say the bills would hurt the industry and infringe on free-speech rights.

    Since Wikimedia depends on a small army of volunteers who create and update articles, it’s particularly concerned about a lack of exemptions in the bills for sites where users might contribute copyrighted content. Today, it has no obligation under U.S. law except removing that content if a copyright holder complains. But under the House version of the bill, it could be shut down unless it polices its own pages.

    The plans for the protest were moving forward even though the bill’s prospects appeared to be dimming. On Saturday, Rep. Darrell Issa, a California Republican, said the bill would not move to the House floor for a vote unless consensus is reached. However, Lamar Smith, a Texas Republican, said work on the bill would resume next month.”

  157. I challenge that because it is utopian and inaccurate. Diplomacy is the execution of US Foreign Policy without force. When diplomacy fails, we then decide on whether or not the cost-benefit of force justifies the foreign policy objective. Often times, it does not, but that does not mean that diplomacy is a win-win endeavor. It isn’t, it’s a cheaper way to achieve foreign policy objectives and if you can make it work for others, it’s a two-fer, but foreign policy, and international relations writ large, are selfish and self-interested endeavors.

  158. “but foreign policy, and international relations writ large, are selfish and self-interested endeavors.

    Yes, just like an open financial market.

    And it’s always advantageous to both parties to have both systems work without the use of force.

  159. I think rabbit needs to practice his brand of psychology on Magilla, since he is still smearing shit all over the crib.

    Second thought, it probably wouldn’t do any good as it’s inherent with primates. It seems they can be trained to make videos, though. 😀

  160. Regarding SOPA:

    A VERY interesting discussion on this Sunday morning on UP with Chris Hayes. The pro-SOPA dude was an attorney for none other than NBC/Universal (Chris Hayes’ boss) and the anti-SOPA dude was the CEO of Reddit.

    This was another of those cases where somebody is either misinformed or deliberately lying and I don’t know who to believe. The NBC lawyer says it’s a tempest in a teapot. The only sites liable to be blacked out are overseas sites dedicated to stealing copyrighted content. The Reddit CEO said that is just plain false. Chris Hayes is looking at the NBC lawyer incredulously basically asking him “if you’re right then where is all the protest coming from?” The lawyer didn’t have a good answer — he just stuck to his guns that NO American website would be blacked out under this legislation.

    I don’t know whether to be worried or not. Clearly we see precedence of Internet censorship in China and other countries so we’re real weary of any “control” over the Internet. On the other hand, copyrights need to be enforced.

    I haven’t read the SOPA bill yet so, as I said, I don’t know who to believe.

    Below is an article summarizing the discussion. For video of the discussion don’t watch the video in the article (they posted the wrong one) instead use the MSNBC link below.

    http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/01/nbc-lawyer-defends-sopa-msnbc/47448/

    http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/15/10161056-debating-sopa

  161. The internet is the greatest fear right now for the establishment. The information available is amazing. It is the greatest education and communication aid ever. Sure there are abuses. That is expected where there is freedom.

    Since truth threatens many existing institutions, they are doing all they can to throttle it. Copyright infringements are just the “excuse”. There are legitimate concerns, but like “terrorism”, those are blown out of proportion and are used as a means to control all activity.

    Expect a bill with the same intent to be presented under a different name, since the watchdogs have successfully outed these.

    There does not need to be any regulation imposed on this last free speech outlet. I curse all who are trying just that. As they attempt to shut down free speech, may their minds be full of confusion and fog, I pray.

  162. 😆 Don’t go whole hog. That’s not kosher.

    Remember the first debate we had at M&H’s regarding a quarter and boat? Fun times. 😀

  163. Yeah, good lesson there. Friends come and go, but enemies accumulate. Let your temper get the best of you and it’ll never be the same.

    Whatever happened to that Jsri guy? We sure seemed to bring out the worst in each other…LOL

  164. Poolman, just so we can put boundaries around the conversation, do you agree that what is illegal in print (such as illegal pornography) should also be censored on the Internet?

    I’m just curious where your first amendment limits are vis-a-vis the web.

  165. “Cotton insisted throughout the interview that SOPA will not effect any U.S. websites and companies”

    IMO he doth protest too much!

    I may be a bit slow in the legislative dept. but how can we pass a bill that will only effect NON-U.S. websites and companies. Does that mean SOPA will only effect Google China, etc. but eliminate Google USA??? Sorry that information does not compute with global companies and websites involved.

    There are already laws in place to protect copyright infringements. One just has to seek legal recourse in or outside the internet. Wikipedia has already said it eliminates copyright material when it is pointed out that it was used.

    SOPA is just another back door approach to regulating the internet.

  166. “Diplomacy is the execution of US Foreign Policy without force.”

    That might (and I stress “might) be what US diplomacy is. But let me evidently be the first to inform you that there are 192 other recognized countries on this earth. And I just don’t think their definition of diplomacy mirrors your US-centric example.

    “and international relations writ large, are selfish and self-interested endeavors.”

    They certainly can be. Especially when you have bad diplomats doing it, like John Bolton.

    But when it is done right, it gives the “perception” (and I can’t stress that word enough) of being mutually beneficial. Does that mean it isn’t cut-throat stuff?…hell no.

    If all you have is musclemen running around saying, “I am bigger, and badder and you’re going to do what I want or I am going to kick the shit out of you” it just doesn’t go over that well.

    Take a look at the Coalition of the Willing compared to the crap Bush II had to work with.

    That’s what diplomacy looks like when it’s done right. It hasn’t been done right for many years, now. And that is why we are a joke in the international community.

  167. Rutherford,

    I think there are already laws in place regarding what can and cannot be distributed regarding pornography. But like everything else, rules are not applied evenly.

    Remember the recent bust at the Pentagon? Under the rug?

  168. I apologize because I think I confused both Poolman and Raji. I was not suggesting SOPA was designed to stamp out kiddie porn. Nor was I suggesting there were not already laws in effect for that.

    I was simply testing Poolman’s philosophical bearings in that he seemed to make a sweeping statement about Internet censorship and I wanted to know what HIS limit is, not what the current law is.

  169. Raji, I haven’t read the bill but I am guessing that the NBC lawyer is claiming that if http://www.wevegotdailyshow.net residing on a server in Romania is offering clips of The Daily Show without permission, thereby violating Viacom’s copyright, then it is the American Google’s responsibility to block links to that site and furthermore the legal obligation of credit card companies not to accept transactions for that site.

    If this is true, then American web sites would not be effected. Now the question is would Google be expected to police all of the places to which it links or simply be expected to act upon notification of copyright infringement? Dunno.

    I think the kink with Reddit is that links to sites are posted by Reddit users making Reddit’s job to police links that much harder.

  170. Kim Kamando’s take is that it is “source” oriented censorship. Controlling links that lead to other links. If so, this would be extremely pervasive. Links ARE the internet. Where is BiC?

  171. Each country has its own laws about porn, etc, and each should police its own. The Web is international and nobody should have the right to (attempt to) police outside its own borders. The age of consent I believe in Japan is 14. Fine. That’s their business. View that stuff here and you are toast.

    They tried that business on secondary porn producers several years ago and it was struck down. It is up to the primary producer (the company with the camera) to ensure the model’s age is appropriate and to keep the records. If you on the other hand buy content from that provider, it is not your problem if his records are incorrect; it’s his. That seems fair to me.

  172. Rutherford,

    As adults, we should censor ourselves. I don’t think government should be the censor. In the case of media and distribution, we have had to establish rules and boundaries, since our youth has access to it.

    But ultimately, I default back to the home, where we SHOULD be learning morals and self-control.

    Unfortunately in many ways we are a nanny state, the state (Fed) is tasked with enforcing certain moral standards. But where there are rules, there are always those skilled at getting around them. It is the nature of the beast.

  173. I have not read the bill but according to what I did read from Wikipedia, the offending website could be shut down by the government for noncompliance to the law. The bill seemed to involve more than “censorship” since it pertains to copyright infringement.

    On the other hand it is easy to copyright information. So just for fun, let’s say the WH wants to copyright it’s press releases. No media can then use any information coming out of the WH without permission!!

    Kind of makes you think doesn’t it?

    Okay Tigre, now your two cents!

  174. I am trying to unravel it. I did ask because I was unclear.

    My initial question is, “why is government (as opposed to private rights of action) necessary to protect intellectual property rights?”

    My secondary question is, “how does this not have a chilling effect of free speech and commerce?”

    And my gut tells me, without having even read let alone digested, this is intended as a backdoor approach to regulating the Internet for extra- governmental reasons.

    So you all know, porn is generally judged/controlled by community standards. Possession/manufacture and Internet distribution are not analytically one in the same.

    Raji, copyright exists regardless of registration. Registering merely proves the existence and elements of the copyright.

    Once I learn more, I’ll give my two cents. From a distance it sounds like legislation born of ignorance at a minimum.

    In the meantime, I like lawyer jokes as much as anybody.

  175. re: SOPA/PIPA

    Dupe post at Fat Grannies:

    Go to any Wikipedia page and input your zipcode. You will receive direct phone numbers to your Senators and Congressman. They are manning the phones and I got in immediately. They are very interested to hear your opinion on these bills.

  176. BTW. Be sure to select the option to speak to a person. They will ask your address, to validate you as one of his/her constituents. I think this carries more weight than just leaving a voice mail.

  177. “Diplomacy is the execution of US Foreign Policy without force.” – Gorilla

    “That might (and I stress “might) be what US diplomacy is. But let me evidently be the first to inform you that there are 192 other recognized countries on this earth. And I just don’t think their definition of diplomacy mirrors your US-centric example.” – Huck

    Well, that explains everything. A US diplomat more concerned with what other countries want than what we want. Crystal clear now!

    Being of the US, of course I’ll have a US centric position, but I thought it was pretty clear what I meant. Substitute one of your beloved 192 for “US” and the sentence is 100% accurate. Thanks for demonstrating your petty lack of depth.

    “and international relations writ large, are selfish and self-interested endeavors.” – Gorilla

    “They certainly can be. Especially when you have bad diplomats doing it, like John Bolton.

    But when it is done right, it gives the “perception” (and I can’t stress that word enough) of being mutually beneficial. Does that mean it isn’t cut-throat stuff?…hell no.

    If all you have is musclemen running around saying, “I am bigger, and badder and you’re going to do what I want or I am going to kick the shit out of you” it just doesn’t go over that well.” – Huck

    Kumbayaahh, my lord Gia, kumbayaahhhhh…

    As I said, if it can be done where it pleases multiple parties, that’s great, but our diplomats are should be focused on our foreign policy objectives before we worry whether or not someone elses FP objectives have been met. This is pretty obvious…

    The rest of this says nothing. You need John Bolton diplomats. Your diplomats shouldn’t be all John Bolton diplomats, but you do need a couple.

    And I’m sorry, our diplomats are mostly pussies. We don’t go around with some “bigger and badder” meme. The US absorbs a tremendous amount of pain and ignores it because we’re the big kid on the block and its “expected”.

    Take a look at the Coalition of the Willing compared to the crap Bush II had to work with.
    That’s what diplomacy looks like when it’s done right. It hasn’t been done right for many years, now. And that is why we are a joke in the international community.

    Of course, that was before France, Germany, Russia, China, and about 50 other countries were violating international sanctions.

    Are you really working on a PhD?

  178. Okay R. You’ve asked too much of lawyer that knows little of how the internet works.

    Now, for those inclined, here is the actual text of the bill:

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.3261:

    Initial review? So vague and over-broad that it would be incapable of uniform application and in probability have the effect of ensnaring all but its intended target.

    The fact that it authorizes “in rem” jurisdiction of hosts means that the AG or private parties would have the right to obtain an order blocking a site without the presence of the site owner (ex parte).And that is precisely what would happen. The movant locates a site, says I can’t serve its owner (because I can’t find, they’re outside the territorial jurisdiction of the court etc), and after a one-sided hearing issues and order that the must be complied with. In other words, it permits the judge to issue an injunction (the cope of which I would think beyond the technical ken of any judge I’ve encountered) based only on the “he said” version of its operations.

    In order to lift the injunction, a site owner would need to lawyer-up, if it could, and challenge it. Imagine the expense and delay. In the meantime, an income producing site would be shut down. Imagine the consequences. Imagine too what a tool that could be to crush a competitor or unpopular online business.

    R, the Hayes clip is completely unilluminating. I had to shut it off. But it does highlight one thing. What is “primarily dedicated to pirating activities” even mean?

    The technical aspects of how one would be out of compliance with the draft bill are totally beyond me. But I think the chilling aspects of it, and potential abuse, are absolutely apparent.

    Looks like a totally unworkeable piece of shit to me. But I’ll read on. . .

  179. R, the Hayes clip is completely unilluminating.

    I kinda disagree because I think the discussion illustrates that, as one wise scholar put it,

    Looks like a totally unworkeable piece of shit to me.

  180. BTW, what I said above is another way too of saying that I don’t see how it passes Constitutional standards for enforceability. Vague and overbreadth mean that it captures legal conduct rather than illegal. Chilling means that it has the collateral effect of infringing on First Amendment rights. I don’t see how this attempt at governmental enforcement/protection of intellectual property rights stands. BiW I am certain has given consideration to it.

  181. “I kinda disagree because I think the discussion illustrates that, as one wise scholar put it. . . ”

    The give and take was incomprehensible because it was all based on platitudes.

    But thanks for the shout out.

    R, I would like to know how this could possibly work from a straight-up technical standpoint. I mean. Pirating sites could be blocked — but just set up a new domain, right? Legitimate sites are the ones that would lose out from what I can tell. And that’s why “but it’s only directed at sites that are dedicated to disseminating copyrighted work (or some such bs) makes no sense to me.

  182. Pirating sites could be blocked — but just set up a new domain, right?

    Well Tigre that is why I actually think the Chris Hayes discussion was worth something because the Reddit CEO basically said this.

    One way to judge the “validity” of the legislation is to figure out who wants it and what’s their motivation. For once, I can’t call this a conservative plot to control information because a prominent Republican (Darrell Issa) is opposing it. I think the “creators” e.g. NBC, Viacom, etc. are pushing it and the content aggregators e.g. Google, Reddit, Wikipedia, etc. are opposing it.

    What confuses me further is if I can watch The Daily Show for free on comedycentral.com then why the hell shouldn’t I be able to see a clip on YouTube?

    The whole area is rife with confusion.

    P.S. I’d love for BiW to take a break from his Obama admin bashing and write a piece on this. It would prove quite interesting. Then again, I don’t know if IP law is his specialty.

  183. Obama nixes the Keystone pipeline. He’s trying to win me back. It will take more than that, but it’s a start.

    Unfortunately, I think Ron Paul would approve it if he were in charge.

    There is no perfect platform for me.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Panetta’s speaking tough on Iran again. Obama is telling Netanyahu to hold off on starting anything. That whole situation is volatile. Why doesn’t MSM talk about the banking angle? Oh that’s right, they are owned.

    The fact that Iran has their own currency and not tied in with the global banking cartel or dollar standard for oil. That can’t stand.

    The others to defy the “standard” were Iraq and then Libya… Look at them now. The record is pretty clear. You don’t go up against the banksters and survive. History proves it.

    Lincoln, Garfield, JFK. Den of vipers, per Andrew Jackson. More dangerous than standing armies, per Thomas Jefferson.

  184. “And my gut tells me, without having even read let alone digested, this is intended as a backdoor approach to regulating the Internet for extra- governmental reasons”-Tigre

    “Initial review? So vague and over-broad that it would be incapable of uniform application and in probability have the effect of ensnaring all but its intended target”-Tigre

    I agree Tigre. I think this is a backdoor approach and intended to “ensnare”. Think of fishing nets that ensnare all species just so you can catch a tuna. Was the “tuna” the object or just the excuse?

    R, I think the whole purpose is to create confusion.

  185. Tigre
    Now you have me confused. How can material be considered to have a copyright if it has not been registered? How does that stand up in a court of law?

    I couldn’t access your link to the bill. It just came up blank.

  186. Raji, one need only prove that they created the work. The right to capitalize on it through reproduction belongs to the author — not who files first. Obviously one cannot plagiarize/duplicate someone else’s work and register thereby owning the IP rights. That belongs to the creator (or employer of the creator if it is a work-for-hire).

    Given the timing, think of the I Have A Dream Speech and who receives the royalties/licensing rights.Hint: MLK didn’t register it.

    “Standing up in court” is a matter of proof. Registering a copyright is such proof and created presumptions.

    Raji, I don’t think the bill was designed to create to confusion although it would. As with much proposed legislation, it is the product of ignorance and lack of foresight.

  187. What confuses me further is if I can watch The Daily Show for free on comedycentral.com then why the hell shouldn’t I be able to see a clip on YouTube?

    BEcause the commercial value of the work belongs to Comedy Central. It has the right to publish its own work and capture its value trough traffic to its site. That includes the right not to have the value diluted through publication of the same work elsewhere where the value of Internet traffic is captured by someone else.

    Like our discussion of Bain and capitalism, it ain’t all about you R. 😆

  188. “Well Tigre that is why I actually think the Chris Hayes discussion was worth something because the Reddit CEO basically said this.”

    The Hayes Muppet didn’t help. That’s an obvious question.

  189. “Then again, I don’t know if IP law is his specialty.”

    It doesn’t need to be. These are constitutional due process questions.

  190. Poolman you do come up with some great stuff.

    OK the JFK conspiracy stuff I think has some legs. I don’t think we will ever know the whole story there. But there is always the chance that we just cannot accept that a punk like Oswald was capable of killing the leader of the free world. Maybe we’re just in denial?

    I used to love Presidential history so if I recall:

    Jackson was attacked by a dude who I think referred to himself as Richard the Lion Hearted. Dude was a madman.

    Lincoln was killed by a disgruntled actor loyal to the defunct confederacy.

    Garfield was killed by a federal appointment seeker who got turned down and believed VP Chester Alan Arthur would be more sympathetic to the “hire your cronies” method of federal job giving that went on at that time. Ironically, the assassination prompted Arthur to spearhead the civil service system which, if I’m not mistaken got cemented into place by the man for whom I am the namesake, Rutherford B. Hayes.

    I didn’t finish the article yet so I haven’t seen whether the author pulls McKinley into his theories. McKinley of course, was killed by an anarchist. I would imagine anarchists have interesting opinions about banking policy so I’ll be surprised if McKinley doesn’t make an appearance in the theory.

    P.S. Oh, that business about John Hinckley wanting to impress Jodie Foster … nonsense. He was really looking out for banking interests when he shot Reagan. 😉

  191. Like our discussion of Bain and capitalism, it ain’t all about you R.

    Damn! When WILL it be all about me? I feel so neglected.

    Frankly Tigre, I’m impressed. You are right that web traffic is a currency of sorts and that indiscriminate posting of a vid on another site might steal that currency. However, one must then wonder why Comedy Central (Viacom) provides embed code for web developers to place the video on their site? I suppose the embed code has a tracking mechanism so that Viacom can still measure how many hits the video is getting. Which they wouldn’t be able to do with a “pirated” copy on YouTube.

  192. Tigre, you seriously need to get over your Chris Hayes hate-on. As MSNBC liberals go, he is probably one of the most conciliatory least combative of the bunch. He’s a smart guy, relatively young and driven by a certain idealism that shows through if you give him half a chance. Unlike bomb tossers like Ed Schultz and the now-ghostly Keith Olbermann (oh how the mighty have fallen), Chris really does try to raise the level of debate.

  193. Yeah, it’s an Arab spring. A bloody coil-spring, loaded and ready to unleash its energy on the West.

    Why the hell do we keep buying these people bullets to shoot us with? Forget trying to “do the right thing.” Let them kill each other; let’s step off to the side and out of their sights as they weaken themselves by hating each other and killing each other. Nothing like a new enemy to make crazies forget their former enemies. We have enough on our plate without trying to straighten out the damned world.

  194. Chris Hayes is a Chaz Maddow wannabe. I know the snark, sarcasm, straw man, nervous laughter adn assorted staged ticks are ones that libs equate with intellegent commentary, I don’t. Regardless of his education, I just don’t find him all that bright either.

  195. Philip Morris (PM) looks like a buy right now, after some profit-taking. They have increased their dividend twice recently. Anybody long PM?

  196. Tigre
    Okay I gave up by page 29 😉
    What I did learn is the reason congressmen/women/person hire large staffs. I doubt the names behind this bill have even read it or if they did, didn’t even try to understand it. I guess there is some “meat” somewhere but I couldn’t find it. Still kind of scary that this is an example of proposed legislation that could potentially become a bill.

    I’m assuming the family of MLK receives the royalties/licensiing rights and I would also assume members of the family are at war with each other as to whom really owns the rights.

    It really is all about the lawyers, isn’t it? 😉

  197. “Frankly Tigre, I’m impressed. You are right that web traffic is a currency of sorts and that indiscriminate posting of a vid on another site might steal that currency.”

    Don’t forget also that like all IP rights, the holder must take measures to keep it form becoming public domain to retain the monopoly on reproduction rights (hence the terms copy and right).

    All of this got me thinking too about the “fair use doctrine” and how it might be impacted by the proposed bill.

    R, have you got the fortitude to wade through the 77 pages of poorly constructed proposed legislation? Some of the talking heads I heard this morning were complaining that no one knew what they were talking about because (as usual) they hadn’t bothered to read or understand it.

  198. “It really is all about the lawyers, isn’t it?”

    I don’t understand the comment. These are legislators. Although I can certainly work through it with much greater ease than a lay person based on experience with statutory construction issues as a trial lawyer, much like that piece of crap Obamacare bill this is the the product of myopic legislators with an ignorant lack of concern for constitutional standards that might block their objectives.

    Of course, we could ask PF since he fancies himself a legal expert. 😆

    As for the King family, they are fighting over the money generated by the royalties and licensing. The battle over the copyright to King’s papers ended a long time ago.

  199. No offense meant! I was referring to the fact legislators need lawyers on their staffs to explain the bills they propose because as you said
    “product of myopic legislators….”

    But on the other hand maybe the legislators feel they don’t need legal help 😉

  200. Don’t worry, I wasn’t offended. I just marvel at these damn things sometimes, especially before drafting committees get a hold of them. Since I can only imagine how computer/Internet geeks scratch their heads at the inartful drafting too, it should go to show how a bill like Obamacare becomes an absolutely incomprensible train wreck that creates more problems than it solves.

    One of my partners spent a lot of time on the Hill. He has described the process. It gives him a headache to recount and he”s an Ivy League lawyer that had to contend with drafting issues.

  201. I know the snark, sarcasm, straw man, nervous laughter adn assorted staged ticks are ones that libs equate with intellegent commentary, I don’t. Regardless of his education, I just don’t find him all that bright either.

    Such anger issues my friend. The primary tick I’ve noticed with Hayes is he pushes his glasses up higher on his nose all the time. I don’t think it’s “staged”. I think he’s genuinely neurotic.

  202. I doubt the names behind this bill have even read it or if they did, didn’t even try to understand it.

    Jon Stewart did a great bit on this last night. The folks who are on these committees dealing with the Internet haven’t a clue and some of them openly admit it.

    Then of course there is the late great Ted Stevens who said the Internet was “a series of tubes”.

  203. R, have you got the fortitude to wade through the 77 pages of poorly constructed proposed legislation?

    The short answer is “probably not”. But this does prompt the question, why should something as simple as “deny access to offshore sites that pirate IP” take 77 pages to explain in the first place?

  204. So you look past the others? Big shocker. 😆

    Seriously R, there is a pattern to the mannerisms of the MSNBC propagandists.

    True though. I’m a “Hate-a” of that formulaic MSNBC crap. I honestly (and I mean honestly) don’t get why you haven’t grown tired of it. It’s so bad. And the fact that there’s almost never opposing viewpoints makes makes it little more than liberal masturbation rather than informative commentary. Which is a criticism I have for your “radio” program. You need a co-hos that tests your opinions and really disagrees with you. I mean, you and your co-host go to the same outlets for you info (opinions). Disagreement over meaningless nuance is not all that engaging — at least to righties. From what I can tell, libs have an aversion to conflict (which probably explains the MSNBC approach).

  205. it should go to show how a bill like Obamacare becomes an absolutely incomprensible train wreck that creates more problems than it solves.

    I think you accidentally identified the real problem with Obamacare. It’s not that universal coverage is a bad thing. It is that when all was said and done, the legislation was a clusterf*ck.

    The current crop of Republican robots could get a lot more traction with me if instead of saying “on my first day, I will repeal Obamacare” (which they can’t even do on their first day), they said “we have a law that no one completely understands. We are going to keep the good parts (like no ability to be turned down based on health) and simplify the complicated parts.”

  206. But this does prompt the question, why should something as simple as “deny access to offshore sites that pirate IP” take 77 pages to explain in the first place?

    I think you already answered that one with this…

    It really is all about the lawyers, isn’t it?

  207. “Hey Pfesser, I’m just curious … should we offset our “investment” in Philip Morris with a nice donation to the American Cancer Society? ;-)”

    Interesting, isn’t it? I did two months of training at Duke last year. Guess what? All built with tobacco money.

    All black or white arguments just don’t cut it in the real world, do they?

  208. The biggest problem I see is that the industries that are being regulated are the ones sending their lawyers in to write these laws. That is what happened with Obamacare after the Pharma and insurance industry provided their “expertise”.

    BiW had directed me to the “simple language” folks that are actively trying to simplify all this legalese, but I think the opposition is too great. If things remain convoluted there is always a need for legal interpretations and it leaves open avenues for abuse.

    I believe complicating simple things is a practiced art that those wishing to deceive promote.

    It reminds me a little of parenting. I remember quizzing my kids about certain things and instead of a simple yes or no to a “yes or no question”, I would get a diversionary answer or excuse. 😉 It was also the way they interpreted my instructions. I would say “straighten your room” and my daughter would later explain how that was not the same as “clean” the room. 🙂 Kids always find the loopholes.

  209. “I think you accidentally identified the real problem with Obamacare. It’s not that universal coverage is a bad thing. It is that when all was said and done, the legislation was a clusterf*ck.”

    Nice try. It’s conceptually a clusterfuck, unconstitutional, unwanted by the majority of Americans, unworkable regardless of it language, too expensive etc. etc.

    But other than that, how’d you like play Mrs. Lincoln?

  210. “But this does prompt the question, why should something as simple as “deny access to offshore sites that pirate IP” take 77 pages to explain in the first place?”

    Gawd, you’re a one trick pony.

    Has it occurred to you that precision above simplicity legislation is also necessary to ensure that it’s not overboard or vague? It’s not always some conspiracy because you don’t understand it Pool man.

  211. Sometimes laws are just bad Poolman.

    The simplicity (plain language movement you’re so enamored with) is not the “legalese” we are discussing with poorly drafted legislation.

  212. El Tigre –

    The problem I have is that the Constitution, which is written in unequivocal plain language, has served just fine for a very long time, yet every time someone suggests we do that with all the laws, he is met with one hundred reasons why that won’t work.

    Thoughts?

  213. I understand precision in language. The written text is always subject to interpretation. I understand “poorly drafted” is due often to an awkwardness in trying to convey real life inferences and circumstances into written account. I will agree there are numerous poorly written and tedious drafts that do little to shed light on intent.

    But when the precision of the language becomes a key only a few possess, the real intent is behind closed doors. We have been losing rather than gaining freedoms behind those closed door sessions. At least, “we, the people” have.

  214. “the real intent is behind closed doors.”

    Yes and no, but either way it is why the language often appears to have so much surplus.

    First, intent does not mean constitutional or lawful.

    Second, legislative history is considered in divining intent in statutory construction cases in most instances. Fed of course, and most states. My jurisdiction does not maintain legislative history of its General Assembly, and the courts are not permitted to look into it. Intent is not the only determinative factor though. The reason being that the intent itself is subject to interpretation conflict so the statute stands or falls within the four corners of the text. Importantly though, one must be reasonably apprised that their conduct is unlawful regardless of intent. So the keys are held by the drafters and not just the lawyers interpreting it. See how that comes full circle?

    Third, the legislative process (i.e. behind closed doors) is an entirely different subject from the clarity o f the law itself. The sessions are conducted by those whom “we the people” elect, so comments about closed doors do not follow your argument about lawyers rigging the game (so to speak).

    Finally, language is ways subject to interpretation. Your contention that freedoms are lost as a result of precise language that is only understood by a learned few is a meaningless platitude. Vagueness is argued and constitutional standard to strike a law.So what’s your real point?

  215. PF, I mean we still look to the federalist papers. The Constitution, like most legislation, is the product of compromise and differing interpretations and objectives by its own drafters

  216. IANAL, but when I look at the Constitution – a copy of which I keep on my person at all times, BTW – I see plain English that I can understand. Of course, like all other law, it has been subject to interpretation, as you say.

    I then look, for example, at my employment contract. It’s longer than the Constitution and an opaque labyrinth of verbiage that I cannot understand without the help of a lawyer.

    One document has been held up as a shining example of brevity and clarity, and has been emulated the world over. The other is of much significance, to quote Louden Wainright III, as a dead skunk in the middle of the road.

    So my question is: why do we EVER need language like that, if plain language has worked so well for us, and has the unsurmountable advantage of being understandable by every citizen with half a brain? (which would be most of them, by my estimation – but I digress)…

  217. PF, how many thousands of pages of US Supreme Court opinions have gone into interpreting and applying the Constitution to particular circumstances? (that’s rhetorical)

    It’s not that the Constitution lacks linguistic clarity. However, much is not said in the document that creates uncertainty that additional language could foreclose. And unlike statutory language,deliberately so.

    Now for example if the understandable portion of the constitution applies to the second amendment, why is there a question of its scope by many on the left?

    For fun, since you carry a copy, can you locate for me where a right to individual privacy exists? Yet there’s almost disagreement that such a right exists to some extent, right?Does it extend to abortion. How many pages of legal opinion in Roe v. Wade and its progeny is there?

    I am not defender of unnecessarily complex language, and there’s plenty of it in the law. But I think my rhetorical question answers yours.

  218. I love you Pfesser (in an atheistic manly sort of way) but there’s something about people who carry pocket Constitutions around with them that really creeps me out. 😯

    It’s like having a government fetish.

  219. However, much is not said in the document that creates uncertainty that additional language could foreclose.

    Not to mention the fact that the Framers could not have dreamt of the society in which we currently live. The Internet? Stem cell research? Blacks being intellectually equal to whites? 😯

    Like Bob Dylan said, there is one constant, “the times they are a-changin'”

  220. “Not to mention the fact that the Framers could not have dreamt of the society in which we currently live. The Internet? Stem cell research? Blacks being intellectually equal to whites?”

    So. They anticipated there would be much they didn’t know. The Constitution is just. It’s not intended to be the embodiment of all laws. It’s intended to create the framework and limit the power of government.

    Got that R? LIMIT. Not expand.

    (I tried to make that simpel since you’re intellectuallly inferior :lol:)

  221. This article appears to explain the two bills in question. I’ve highlighted a few paragraphs to perk your interest in reading it.

    SOPA and PROTECT-IP: A Line-By-Line Analysis of the Bills We Must Kill

    http://pjmedia.com/blog/sopa-and-protect-ip-a-line-by-line-analysis-of-the

    Title One is rounded out by some porky provisions against sites involved in misbranding or counterfeiting of prescription medication. What this is doing in a piracy bill eludes me. It’s clearly substantially different from copyright infringement, which is the major focus of the bill. If a site is distributing counterfeit prescription medication with a misappropriated brand name, I feel that only a government bureaucrat would focus on the latter aspect.

    Up through page 66 is another devolution into a discussion of counterfeit drugs. Not sure what lobby is responsible for this, or why. I’ll take this opportunity to restate something I repeat whenever I can: we must push for single-issue bills in the government. If the contents of a bill can’t stand without dealmaking on totally separate issues, they can’t stand at all. And we’ve had enough omnibus bills for one millennium.

    Like SOPA, PROTECT-IP closes out with a laundry list of government reports to be made. Right at the end, there is also a slightly concerning section on preventing import of “Counterfeit Products and Infringing Devices.” It’s troublesome insofar as the way it is worded could be used to prevent us from importing, say, DVD burners, but it’s hardly worth mentioning in comparison to everything else.

    One thing that’s interesting to me is the substantial similarities between SOPA and PROTECT-IP. My guess is that legislators are hoping that if one fails the other will get through.
    SOPA and PROTECT-IP could still go that route, potentially, since there are differences in the bills. More likely, I suspect that legislators will let one bill fail gracefully and then intentionally confuse the matter until the other bill can slip through under the radar. Legislators have the odd belief that once a bill is passed it disappears.

  222. “Tigre sometimes I think you argue with yourself. Must be the lawyer in you.”

    Perhaps. I assumed you were a “the constitun is outdated” liberal and that motivated your comments. I did read your exchanges with BiW you know. 😉

  223. “And thus its brilliance, copied but never equaled.”

    Numbnutz, weren’t you blathering about BiW’s “constitutional purity” or some such nonsense in one these threads?

    I know R talks about “strict constitutionalist” in response to discussion about limitations on government when it interferes with his bid government involvement arguments.

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