A Day for Optimism

Back in 2008 while listening to the radio, I heard Casting Crowns’ version of “I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day“. I found the melody incredibly moving and when I examined the lyrics I saw a compelling message. I posted the video to my blog and then a year later one of my readers asked me to re-post it. And so it has become a sort of Rutherford Lawson Blog tradition.

I am not religious but the almost strident optimism in the song (based on a poem by Longfellow) cannot help but move the spirit. It reminds me, on a lighter note, of an old humorous story:

Two brothers were driving their father crazy. One brother was an eternal optimist and the other a pessimist. In the hope of showing his sons “the other side of the coin”, the father took the pessimist to a room piled high with toys. The boy began to cry. “Why are you crying,” asked the father, “look at all these toys!” The boy replied “yes so many toys that might break if I played with them.” Failing at that experiment, the father tried again with his optimistic son. He brought the boy to a barn piled high with horse manure. The boy joyfully jumped on top of the pile and started shoveling with his hands. “What in the world are you doing? Why are you so excited and happy?” asked the father. To which the gleeful boy replied:

With all this manure, there must be a pony in here somewhere!

And so we have a choice between optimism and pessimism. In the old Christmas song, the singer evolves from:

In despair I bowed my head
There is no peace on earth I said
For hate is strong and mocks the song
Of peace on Earth, good will to men

to

The wrong shall fail, the right prevail.
With peace on Earth, good will to men.

The sound of the bells and their resemblance to the sound of children’s voices (children, being our future)  inspired the singer. He trusted that God (or in my case perhaps hope) had not abandoned the world. I do believe that in the long run, the right prevails.

I wish happy holidays to my readers. In the spirit of self-fulfilling prophecy, let us all take this season to declare that tomorrow will be better than today.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

Image: chrisroll / FreeDigitalPhotos.net

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249 thoughts on “A Day for Optimism

  1. Plastic.

    For some reason today, I can’t let our blog host get away from his denial. For three years, he has mocked and ridiculed the reason for the Holiday. As recently as today, he did as much again. He will gain no favor, receive no thanks or promises of peace and brotherhood from me today.

    Happy New Year Rutherford – and joyous Ground Hog Day.

    The salad days of Obama’s election victory and promises of Christmas 2008 being peace on earth and good will toward men, hey? What hopes, what aspirations, what dreams! 🙂 ‘Yes We Can!’ The seas would calm, the earth would heal. Ah, to be a tool of Obama in those days of wine and roses. Epic.

    The man who would be king. The king who would be god.

    Feh…

    Without original thought, their secular songs plagiarized from the King James Version of Luke 2. The transparency so thin, even a child would see the deception. A song that not even bother to mention by name the one it was written for, to touch the heart? The very thought of their hypocrisy nauseating from the stench of their heresy. I won’t grant them the courtesy of a joyful celebration in the name they deny.

    Peace on earth and goodwill to men? For the secular scoffer? There will never be a day that you live to see it.

    ===============================

    Behold. I give you a message of lasting value. 🙂 The real reason for the celebration of Christmas.

    Before 1948, the oldest complete Hebrew manuscript dated to 900 A.D. The Dead Sea discoveries brought shocking news. A complete scroll of Isaiah was found, documenting there had been no change in manuscript for a 1,000 years, the copper scroll carbon dated to about 100 B.C. With one stroke, the world leaped 1000 years further into its past.

    And in the book of Isaiah, the following verses were found unchanged, one of a multitude from the Old Testament documenting prophetically the birth Jesus Christ; time, event and place. Herod the Great believed. So did the Magi. Eventually, so did the World.

    The real meaning of Christmas, written by Israel’s greatest prophet, 700 years before Christ was born.

    Isaiah 9:6-7
    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    Of the greatness of his government and peace
    there will be no end.
    He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom,
    establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.

  2. Better to be a truthful asshole than a phony hypocrite of the highest order like you and Rutherford is my creed. 😉

    Aren’t you going to try and dispute real history, and not the crap you’re spoon fed at Dhimmi U from professors with bad teeth and hair at that steps of martyrdom?

    Perhaps you can research it. Hmmm? 😆

    What chapter and verse of the Qur’an will you be memorizing on XMAS, Heyzeus?

  3. Huck,

    Why would it bother you so that I make fun of the absolute pretentiousness of Rutherford wishing someone Merry Christmas and parroting a phrase of Peace of Earth and Good Will To Men?

    It would be like me announcing to the room PROPHETS OF ALLAH, may peace be upon you. We don’t remember the Good Samaritan because his intentions were good. 😆

    Are you so clueless to not be aware of how demonstratively fatuous this makes you both look?

    I thought you were the one always critical of vacuous chatter and hypocrisy here? The trouble with you, Huck, is that your spine does not reach your brain.

  4. Tex, seriously, I owe you an apology and I give it publicly. I picked the absolute worst time of the year to get into any type of religious debate with you. It was insensitive at the very least.

    But one comment you made deserves correction unless I misunderstood you:

    Without original thought, their secular songs plagiarized from the King James Version of Luke 2. The transparency so thin, even a child would see the deception. A song that not even bother to mention by name the one it was written for, to touch the heart?

    What are you referring to when you say “their secular songs”? If by “they” you mean Casting Crowns, they sing contemporary Christian music. They are not the least bit secular. And the lines I left out of my excerpt of the lyrics go:

    Then rang the bells more loud and deep
    God is not dead, nor does He sleep

    So they do indeed mention God. Are you upset they don’t mention Jesus? Neither does the Longfellow poem upon which the song is based unless you count a reference to “Christendom”.

    Enjoy your Christmas day with your family Tex.

  5. I picked the absolute worst time of the year to get into any type of religious debate with you. It was insensitive at the very least.

    Spare me Rutherford – you owe no apology.

    Why should Christmas Eve be any different about sensitivity? If you don’t believe it, you don’t believe it. The day changes nothing. Either mock it freely every day, or don’t do it all. I feel sure in saying that Jesus would see your attitude today as no different than the other 364 days.

    But let’s correct the record. You don’t debate ‘religion’ – you mock Christianity.

    Everything else would fall within your grounds of ‘multi-culturalism’ or ‘diversity’ or ‘tolerance’, besides maybe the support of Zionist Israel – and then only because it beloved by your political enemy, Evangelical Christians. Like your support of the Park 51 mosque 500ft from the former towers that fell. Had that been Christians that had proposed building a steeple under the guise of sharing our faith and peace, after carrying out the deaths of 3,000 innocents screaming “Jesus Christ is Lord” as the planes hit the building – my Lord, you and yours would have blown up like toads. And rightly so. Your support of the Muslims isn’t due to “freedom” or “tolerance” — no, you’re not fooling me. It was based on they vote right and support your choice of candidate.

    You’re free to mock Rutherford. The Constitution is intended to be a secular document created by mostly Protestant Christians of some form, understanding that free will a right granted by God, not King George. We Christians are confident enough in our faith, and we are whether you choose to believe it or not, that we won’t cut your head off, burn your eyes out. You can burn the Bible and we look at it as paper. You can destroy nativity scenes and we understand it’s ceramic. It’s tactless and vulgar, but so are most agnostics and atheists I know. We’ve come to expect it, especially this time of the year.

    You personally have a glaring double standard in treatment and respect of individuals who believe in Jesus as Savior. Worse, you freely take the freedoms afforded by Christianity, and yes we are a nation of Christians, and use your freedoms to make sport of the very faith that protects your freedoms in the vilest of ways; the very faith of our Founding Fathers; the very faith of those who discovered the new land, developed the new land. It is us who keeps the peace, and be glad. Frankly, many of you atheists and agnostics stupid men who tempt fate. Don’t mistake meekness for weakness, and don’t believe Christ’s message of peace can always stem the rage of people just as fallible and just as human as you. We Christians are sinful and as far from perfect as you are – we have tempers and urges, some like me more sinner than saint.

    So let’s knock off the hypocrisy of the message of peace and brotherhood of man for one day. You can’t mock 364 days of the year, and then turn on a dime and extend the olive branch in a holiday you don’t even believe. Personally, I find that more vulgar that the normal platitudes your feed us. It’s so distasteful and phony, that it is nauseating. There’s nothing holy in the significance of this day to you. I don’t know why you celebrate it honestly – at least in the name of Christ, I don’t.

    Hope your daughter enjoyed her presents today.

  6. I was going to leave poor Rutherford and the rest of the heathens alone, but I came back to give each of you an idea next year for a gift – and not an expensive one. This might be a perfect idea for those where money is tight.

    Rutherford, your wife would melt, and as technically adept as you are, this would be an easy trick for you.

    Perhaps the best gift I have ever witnessed for the person who is hard to buy for (like my wife). If you are already aware of this, ignore me. But really is too cool and reasonably inexpensive.

    ————

    We took two vacations last year – a first in 24 years of marriage. I generally don’t get to go on family vacations because of a bad boarding experience with dogs. I tell you this so you can understand what my daughter did.

    Last Father’s Day, my oldest daughter had made a book that you can buy through Apple documenting our vacation to Hawaii. The book is then shipped back to you. It was one of the best gifts I have ever received, as daughter uploaded the best of hundreds of digital pictures and used Apple’s tools to construct a very professional looking coffee table type book. I would guess for the poor college student, it must not have cost more than $40.00.

    ———

    But oldest daughter topped herself this time. We also took a vacation to the Florida Panhandle last year and rented a house with three other groups of family, including great nieces and nephews. My wife and her large family are very close. I think there were 25 of us in this beach house, from 60 to 6 months. Each family took turns making meals every night. Lot of fun – pretty cheap when divided between all the families.

    Anyway, my daughter took the best of those pictures, uploaded them to whatever tools Apple provides, and made a 2012 calendar, complete with anniversaries, birthdays, special days – all decorated with the pictures we had taken from the trip.

    Whatever Apple is marketing, the end result is as good as anything you can buy at a store and it is personalized. Daughter told me it costs $29.00 so that I could tell you guys and gals.

    And mom was left with tears in her eyes at the joy of looking through all these pictures, holding them close to the heart. And since mom is the heart of this family, everybody was left with tears in their eyes.

    In case you didn’t know, hopefully this provides a nice idea. You especially Rutherford. You have been on my mind this morning; perhaps guilt, more so concern. I hope those I have done battle with through 2011 have a blessed year. That, I mean from the heart.

  7. Merry Christmas All!! Yes, this IS the day we celebrate my Lord’s birth, though likely He was born in warmer times, some say April and others September.

    Symbolically it really doesn’t matter.

    They can make this a huge marketing event and secularize its message, to me it makes no real difference. God will have His way, no matter. People will find God IF they are seeking Him. He is not far from each of us.

    Look at all the effort the “wise men” went through to find Him before they actually did. When they did, they bowed to worship Him, at that time a mere child. Yet they knew the significance of that child, more so than most of the “people of faith” did, most of them only six miles away in Jerusalem.

    And today, even many “people of faith” are not fully aware of the significance of that event over 2000 years ago. It changed everything going forward.

    In our country where Jesus is no stranger and Christmas is a major annual event – if not THE major annual event – we often take for granted the message and the gift. The gift is eternal and the message is of hope and love, two things we desperately need in today’s plastic world. The best part is it is a truly free gift, the price of which has already been taken care of.

    So enjoy this day in whatever way you choose. You do not have to be a believer to love others or seek peace on earth. These things are universal and don’t require extensive preparation. The challenge is to take the same approach into every new day. It is true you cannot spell good without God, from whom all goodness is derived.

  8. Tex, I’ve seen them. They’re really cool. They llook and FEEL so cool. Great suggestion.

    Something I ‘ve grown to LOVE. Watching the Knuckleheads enjoy the anticipation ( and sometimes disappointment) I had as a kid. Simple this year. Yeah. . .better than the fat years!

    Really.

  9. Tigre,

    I had a great giggle this morning. One of our water alarms went off under the sink at 5:00 AM, explaining my early morning riff to El Rutherfordo. I didn’t even fix the leak – I just cussed and put a glass cooking pan underneath. I’ll fix it tomorrow. I was up two hours before dawn and couldn’t go back to sleep.

    So I took The Mick out for a walk about 7:15 AM after reading the lib paper trying to put the secular happy face on Christmas Day. Cold as ice (literally).

    We walk around the block and I hear what sounds like screaming or a birthday party of little kids. The pup and I walk down the block and there is three little kids, not more 3-4 years old, all bundled up like ticks; one little white kid driving; one little girl in the backseat, along with one little back kid with this huge grin on his face riding shotgun – looked like something out of Little Rascals.

    All are seated in one of those battery powered jeeps straining to pull all three, going forward, then in reverse, the forward again, trying to turn around before running into the chain link fence, not an adult in site (they were behind the fence).

    Pup and I sat there and watched them for a couple of minutes, me giggling and pup’s tail wagging furiously before the little girl notices us. She waves her hand like “go away!” 😆

    We complied. But it got me thinking about grand kids. Man, it has gone fast.

    Good way to start Christmas morning.

  10. Glad everyone is having a good day.

    Hope your daughter enjoyed her presents today.

    Well that all depends on WHEN the question is asked. After she very quickly got over not having a dozen gifts under the tree (five this year including the ones from Granddad and Auntie) she got real psyched about the Wii disk we bought her … that is until she started playing and it turned out more difficult than expected. Rejecting her Dad’s advice to take the f*cking tutorial, she got into a huge snit and I left the next hour of Xmas morning to kid and Mommy — I’m too old for this sh*t. Let the females sort it out between them. My wife is ten times more patient with my daughter than I am … and I consider myself a patient man.

    Cries of “this is the worst Christmas ever” turned to “I love this Wii game, this is the best gift I’ve ever gotten” within an hour of my wife coaching her. I asked my wife, “is the drama over?” Then I rejoined the family. 🙂

    Tex, I’ve seen those personalized calendars advertised and they do look cool. Good suggestion. This year the Mrs. gave me R.E.M.’s final album, a compilation with three new songs and great liner notes. I gave her the Kindle edition of Stephen King’s latest book on what might have happened had Kennedy not been killed (it’s called 11/22/63).

  11. “Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night”

    “With peace on earth, goodwill to men”

    I believe the first line is attributed to Santa Claus and the second line attributed to Longfellow, a writer of myths and legends adapted from Luke, a writer of biblical folklore.
    . “Glory to God in the Highest, and on Earth peace, good will toward men” (Luke 2:14).

    The above quotes are heard round the world at this time of year.

    Christmas Day symbolizes the birth of Jesus Christ, the son of God.

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son”

    The words that stand out for me in the above quotes is Love, Peace and the Joy of Giving to all mankind. These words are the spirit of the Christmas season.

    Give me ten atheists who live their lives according to the ten commandments over one devout Christian who can not even live according to the Golden Rule.

    “Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.”

    Merry Christmas, Rutherford.

  12. Many thanks Raji and as always, well put.

    If celebration of the birth of Christ triggers conversations about peace, love and sacrifice then so much the better, regardless of religious conviction. Pope Benedict XVI said today that he was concerned about the commercialization of Christmas and I understand his point. There is no reason why, even among atheists, agnostics and nullifideans like me, that the day can’t inspire reflection on hope. I’d be curious to know which the Pope finds more offensive, the Christian who views today only as a day to give and receive gifts or the atheist, with religion thrust in his face on a day like today, who uses the day to think about life, love and death and maybe use the day as an excuse to tell people he cares about that he does indeed care about them.

    Let’s face it, life is hectic and it goes by fast. We often don’t take the time to tell people how much we care.

  13. Give me ten atheists who live their lives according to the ten commandments over one devout Christian who can not even live according to the Golden Rule.

    Show me ten atheists who can live by the Ten Commandments, and I’ll show you ten reasons Christ never required – that “folklore” someone speaks. Unfortunately, you’ll never find even one – sinner or saint.

    Show me ten atheists and I’ll show you the antithesis ten times of John 3:16.

    Show me one who speaks of the golden rule, and I’ll show you somebody whose biblical knowledge is not of the Bible. There is no golden rule – a man made concept based on moral escapism.

    But if I could be so bold to speak truth of which the law is based: “Do to others as you would have them do to you.” Speaking truth is the sincerest form of true friendship. And the highest law is to love your God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your mind. Therefore by definition, atheists do not follow the ‘golden rule’ either.

    “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven. “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ~ Matthew 10:32-34

    Live long and prosper…

    ———-

    Glad you had a nice Christmas “R”. Your daughter is at the perfect age for Christmas.

    You want to know how sweet my wife is?

    Ah forget it – but she it is both sweet and comical too. A Proverbs 31 woman, no doubt. Some critic would find fault or malice, never noticing the log in their own eye. 😉

  14. “Let’s face it, life is hectic and it goes by fast. We often don’t take the time to tell people how much we care.”

    Words, Rutherford, said in the true spirit of Christmas

    Tex, I am not sure the God I believe in is the same God of your faith which is why I do not follow organized religion. Jesus said you who are without sin caste the first stone. Just saying 😉

  15. Tex –

    I think it is perfectly fine for Rutherford to use whatever he wishes to express his desire for “peace on earth.” I of course don’t believe that a single word of biblical history or recounts of magic happenings are true. That however does NOT mean its sentiments of peace, harmony, respect for one’s fellow man, humility are incorrect or bad ideas or that someone who admires them is a hypocrite. On the contrary, I think it is a demonstration of honesty and even-handedness.

  16. “Worse, you freely take the freedoms afforded by Christianity, ”

    What!? Did you really say that? I thought they were afforded by Constitution – anity. We’ve seen “Christian” governments and Muslim governments and the freedom they afforded. I’ll pass on that, thankyouverymuch…

    “It is us who keeps the peace,”

    What are you suggesting – that there is a “holy” police force in America? Nonsense. Policing in this country is entirely secular.

    “Frankly, many of you atheists and agnostics stupid men who tempt fate.”

    A little threat there, perhaps? Thanks for that; every so often religious folks do slip up a little – just like that – and reveal what they REALLY want: the power to force OTHERS to conform to THEIR beliefs. But make no mistake about it: there will always be people around just like me, who will make sure they never get it.

    “Don’t mistake meekness for weakness, ”

    And don’t YOU mistake your weakness for meekness. Religion has the power to persuade but it has NO power to compel – and never will – at least not in THIS country. Want to get violent? Is that what you are suggesting? Fine – go ahead. We have a fine set of secular laws that can deal with exactly that kind of behavior, too.

  17. re: Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

    I actually got that from Clement Moore’s “Twas the Night Before Christmas,” which I learned in its entirety for a Christmas play in our little Presbyterian church when I was small.

    The real quote is, “Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night.” It’s the last line of the poem.

  18. Classic polock Christmas for me.

    Took me all night to assemble some piece of shit train set. Pulled an all nighter on it, actually.

    Spent the day stuffing myself with Krakowska sausage and occasionally taking pulls of the hard stuff as we sat back and made the women work like slaves in the kitchen and tend to the numerous toddlers running wild..

    In other words, an awesome Christmas by all!

  19. Pfesser,

    I’m not going to argue with you anymore concerning religion. You’re an interesting man, with an interesting history and a good read on occasion, but frankly you’re on the losing end of no win proposition. Your time is about up. Your own tacit threats pose no danger to anyone but yourself, and in fact make me snicker. My threat was not of a personal nature to Rutherford, and I have known Rutherford far longer than you have. He did not take it that way, and neither should you. I may not like you and have little respect for you and your ilk, but I have no enmity with you either. Put down the toddy. You’ve clearly had enough.

    My point to Rutherford is that of the millions in this country who call themselves Christian, there are bound to be a few loose cannons with a few loose screws. You can only step on so many toes in your militancy before you are bound to meet one that doesn’t take lightly to being stepped on. And it takes only one to start a mob.

    Atheism is slowly dying across most of the globe. I would be more than happy to prove that empirically if you wish to take the bet. Perhaps not here in America or Europe, and you can look to Europe to see America’s future which is bleak, in large part because of men like you. But in the rest of the world atheism it is going the way of the dodo. Where white missionaries were once preaching to black men of tribes, the 21st century I predict will have black men and Asian men and Hispanic men preaching the gospel to white tribes sometime later this century. I don’t expect you to understand that, because that will come to pass about the same time you pass to whatever realm the unbeliever passes.

    I’m reading an interesting book titled “What’s so Great about Christianity” that describes you perfectly. Not in a denigrating manner. But it lays out so perfectly the weaknesses of your argument, that I couldn’t help but think of you as I read the text. Perhaps some day, I will use the text of this book to shoot huge holes in your ignorance. Maybe that should be next on your morning reading list so you can be better prepared.

    As a courtesy of the peace on earth you seek without answer, I will answer your question concerning what grants our freedom.

    The Constitution as I said early in this thread is a secular document, guaranteeing amongst other things no imposed religion by government. It does so purposely, as one of the basic tenets of America’s independence was based on the fact that the Church of England, more specifically King George, had so perverted the act of worship by imposing government into all facets of free will, that members of the Protestant Churches (and some people of like mind without religion) said enough. That is a historical fact.

    My point to Rutherford and now you is that it also a historical fact that a majority of our Founding Fathers were Protestant Christians, a large majority who even held theological degrees, that penned our secular Constitution as a ruling law of our land. There is no quibble between us, other than I believe poor students of real history like you attempt to minimize Christian influence of our founding because you must. It’s the last gasps of a dead argument and while some may be fooled, I am not. You don’t debate this point – you rant.

    And don’t YOU mistake your weakness for meekness. Religion has the power to persuade but it has NO power to compel – and never will – at least not in THIS country.

    Quite the contrary, religion has the power to compel corrupted men to fly planes into buildings, killing thousands. Religion has the power to compel men to walk into churches and shoot butchers in the face in Wichita churches, under the illusion they are doing God’s work. Religion has the power to compel twisted Gentile history to “take back” Israel, killing thousands of Jews in the process. But the real history of Christianity is that for the most part, it has compelled more men to risk life and limb for law, freedom, liberty and justice. It has compelled more men to sacrifice their life for a brother. It has compelled more men to compose and pen our most beautiful music and art. It has compelled men to provide our foundations of law.

    Religion is anything but weak, Pfesser. When twisted to unjust and unholy means, it has the bloodiest history of compelling men to do evil on an unspeakable scale – even here in America. But when pure, the Christian religion is the cornerstone of all of Western civilization. And you are a direct benefactor.

    You’re far more effective and more interesting when seeking answers or discussion than playing both bigshot and blowhard.

  20. On a lighter note, I think my parents come full circle. Perhaps I am getting too difficult to buy for. Perhaps they have forgotten where I live and are under the illusion we’ve moved to Hollywood, or am party to the Godfather, or hit it big somewhere along the line.

    Anyway, I am starting to receive some really strange gifts with the best of intent from my technodolt parents, whose ‘VCR’ still blinks 12:00. How about something simple? Like a gift certificate?

    As example….

    My wife, kids, and I went to Grandma’s house tonight to share gifts. I had far fewer gifts to open than anybody else, and what little I did open were mostly gag items. My mother is funny, so everyone was getting a hoot at my expense. I suspected something “grand” was up. I had a note to go to the garage with two small wattage lights in a box stuffed with cotton in small tubes, wrapped exquisitely. I went out to the garage to find….

    …this huge, metal fountain, complete with underwater lighting and flowing water through three levels with a tube at the top. Something like you would see in the entry way of a mansion, or at the entrance of very fine neighborhood, or mausoleum. It’s very pretty – and very big. I’m sure it was very expensive and more than a bum for son deserved.

    But I have no idea what I am going to do with it.

    It took me, my wife and one daughter to empty my shed and carry it in, all the time in the dark. The dog was having a great time. There are no instructions, and no offer of return was offered from the giver. Mom did tell me where I could talk to the nice man who sold it to her about instructions.

    I live in a modest house in a modest neighborhood. Tonight, I feel like Jed Clampett before he moved to Hollywood – holding a two hundred pound crystal chandelier for the shack.

    And I never heard the end of it some years back when my mother bought me a dozen Malibu lines to line the “driveway.” It would have taken my daughters approximately 30 minutes to run half of them over backing up.

    A year later, the two boxes still sat on my back patio. Every time mom would come over, I would hear, “Tex, do you not like those lights I bought you? Why haven’t you plugged them in?”

    It was a lot of headache to install the necessary electrical outdoor circuitry to have twelve 12 watt bulbs come on for two hours a day – most of which are now practically covered by bushes – a royal pain in the ass actually, as I had to tie into the light pole in the middle of the yard, dig a damn ditch to garden, drill holes in the mortar to install a GFI outlet, and buy 50 ft of copper wiring at exorbitant prices so that I could “plug” the lights in. Six months later the timer went out and I had to buy one of those blasted things too.

    I love my mom. She’s almost as sweet as my wife. But she is absolutely clueless as to what it takes to make some of these “fine innovations” work at the shack.

  21. Overall, not what I was anticipating for Christmas comments. However, the beautiful thing about being an atheist (and an avowed protector of the First Amendment) is that no religious-motivated comment against you can hurt you and religious-motivated comments meant in earnest only avow the nature of humanity. It’s the best of all worlds.

    Happy Holidays and Happy New Year.

  22. Tex, that is hilarious. 😆 Sorry, I guess the giggles are somewhat at your expense, but since you shared…

    It will need a water source in addition to an electric one. 😀 You lucky devil, you. If it has a float, there will be a water line going to it. You could Jed Clampett it and run a hose and extension cord to it.

    I suggest you call someone in to install it, as I’m sure mom will bug you until it’s functioning. And you thought the Malibu lights were a useless pain. It could cost you a pretty penny…

    I wonder what mom has planned for your next unique gift experience? Mine sends money, as gifts are hard to get me and money is a one-size-fits-all kind of gift. My MIL only gives us her excess Publisher’s Clearinghouse “gifts” that keep the Chinese children productive.

    You would be better off having mom donate to Heifer International or some other charity in your name. That way your gifts don’t come around and bite you in the ass. 😉

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Gypsy,

    I always wonder what atheists ponder about in certain situations. Every since I can remember, I have considered various traumatic circumstances that would put me at odds with the natural world and I try to imagine the outcome or how I would fare during them.

    Falling out of an airplane, as example. There is a long time before the ground and I often wondered what kind of conversation an atheist would have with him/herself during those moments. There have been some people that have survived such falls and I can only see that as with some form of spiritual intervention.

    Maybe I’m different by considering such things. I have had many dreams of flying and when I was a kid I truly believed I could. These are always without external means, ie: no plane or jetpack attached..

  23. It will need a water source in addition to an electric one. 😀 You lucky devil, you. If it has a float, there will be a water line going to it. You could Jed Clampett it and run a hose and extension cord to it.

    😆 Oh, this present deserves a laugh at my expense (in more ways than one). I’m hoping for a lot of rain, Poolman. 🙂 I would take your good advice about the extension cord and hose being the white trash I am, but the dog would chew through it in no time flat and we’d find Fido fried and welded to this lovely fountain. I would have preferred the Clearinghouse gifts you received – a set of chopsticks, or a match set, perhaps a deck of cards with Mack Trucks on them.

    If I drag this monstrosity out and find out it does indeed need a constant water source, I can guarantee you this gift is staying in the shed to collect dust – maybe I’ll put it out in that corner of the yard no one sees, where the birds can roost. I don’t care how much mom rags on me. I figured you filled it up like a wading pool. Lawd, I hope you’re wrong Poolman. 😆

    And being I haven’t taken a good look at it, because it was in the dark garage, I’m almost scared to go look now.

  24. Tex, just go all out with the fountain. Get two bad ass concrete gargoyles delivered and have them flank the fountain, standing guard. Turn that moderate house in the Gothic wonder of Tulsa.

  25. Rutherford, I wonder from time to time what joy a non-believer in Christ the Savior finds in Christmas, or at Christmastime. I think of it this way – one like you giving yourself over to looking and finding some definition of peace that is merely a semblance to me. While one like me gives myself over to reflecting and rekindling the connection to a peace which remains unknown to you. In short, I appreciated your article to the degree that I can fellowship with you. I wish you Peace, and I hope this next year is a windfall of good things for you and yours.

    Music is a powerful way to ignite a warm and reflective state of mind. I’ve spent in excess of 3 hours a day in the car every day for the past week and I can testify to that.

    Tex, as long as we’re all reviewing your comments as well, I found them to be not the usual fare for the holly, jolly Christmas party – but fair nonetheless. And your stories of everyday life, with the holiday theme added, are as funny and readable as any you’ve ever written here. For me, you write in such a way that I can see the people and situations you write about. You too (along with Rutherford) are gifted in that regard.

    ***

    Mom is doing well. I’ll spare you all the details, and pass this along instead. It’s amazing and humbling to me how one person’s love can be such a light to others that it can take on the properties of life itself. So much so that when she isn’t around, it can be hard to find your way. Very like Christ is she, to me.

    Peace to all. And more peace.

    (PS…Thank you Thor and poolman and anyone else I have not thanked for their well-wishes. I saw them all.)

  26. “I wonder from time to time what joy a non-believer in Christ the Savior finds in Christmas, or at Christmastime.”

    The music still resonates, even if we don’t agree on the nature of the instrument.

    One doesn’t need to believe in a supernatural being in order to wish for peace on Earth and goodwill towards men (and women).

  27. One doesn’t need to believe in a supernatural being in order to wish for peace on Earth and goodwill towards men (and women).

    Actually, that’s a pretty inconsistent message for an atheist who believes in neo-Darwinian methods, Huck. Since there is no transcendent purpose, why would you care if there was peace on earth or goodwill towards men? This isn’t to mock you but to demonstrate an inconsistency in your rationale.

    Not meaning to hassle you, but for a man who apparently prides himself thinking critically, your conclusions are contrary to your assertions, as are Pfesser’s, as are Kat’s, as our Rutherford’s.

    In fact, in a battle of the fittest of glorified apes and for purely economic reasons to enrich yourself, is should follow that you would pursue just the opposite to stay on message. That is after all, the nature of the beast – the law of the jungle. A system of biochemical and electrical impulses by some genetic inheritance explaining everything, produced by 3.5 billion years of random mutation out of a primordial soup, leading to a biochemical requirement to reproduce and pass on your genes – never explaining exactly why the urge to pass on those genes. If you say love, then it will be necessary to explain genetically to us what is love?

    Which leads me to another point. Why isn’t it you atheists that have composed your own music that resonates with what, the lack of a soul? You don’t seem to be able to motivate others in great compassion or servitude. In fact, one of the real shortcomings I have found amongst atheists contrary to Kat’s statement above,is that atheists carry a message that apparently doesn’t resonate in any fashion, other than the psychological exercise of one skeptical thought or another. Contrary to what Kat would like us to believe, the message of atheism is simply an intellectual exercise eventually leading to nothingness for self, living within a small moment in time between two eternities. The message of atheism certainly brings no hope, or joy, or heart felt call to worship, no reason to glorify outside the boundary of self-satisfaction. The message of atheism is completely contrary to brotherly love. No atheistic nation carries the banner of peace and goodwill toward men.

    Does your critical thinking ever lead you to ponder that fact?

    I tell you this Huck. Within you, is the ability to discern with real reason. You would do well to search for the truth, not in a classroom, or a blog, or amongst even friends, but in the stillness of your own thoughts and an open heart.

    What you call harsh, I call speaking truth.

  28. Thank you, Muffy. I hope your mother rests comfortably and that her body mends quickly. I also hope you find something that supports you, but more importantly something that brings you a great deal of satisfaction in your new job. I consider that far more lasting and motivating than the pursuit of money and things.

    I could never find that and consider that not only a personal weakness, but a character flaw. Nothing could ever grant me a degree of satisfaction. I bore easily and my attention span is practically none existent. 😡 Drives my sweet wife nuts.

    Besides Pfesser, I don’t believe there is an atheist on this board with a nasty streak. And because of that, I do take the occasional advantage, this time to my pal Rutherford as he was trying to pay proper homage to peace on earth, to pull his strings out of sheer orneriness. I can’t help but believe once the rage of wanting to strangle me passes, Rutherford does enjoy the give and take, just sure one day the zinger will hit my hull sinking me into the abyss. 🙂

    I shouldn’t give this away, as I have a reputation to keep. Sometimes, I do have a purpose in being a pompous ass. This was such an occasion.

    And thank you for the compliment of storytelling.

    After once reading the book Marley and Me, I realized I might have been able to tell those same stories with a different twist, being I had a male lab with some of the same horror stories as the writer; a black lab, not yellow as the book. 100+lbs. of crazy dog, so happy and pleased with himself for ripping off the TV cable attached to the house, he dragged it around to his master and friend, chewed in half to show him his accomplishment. 🙂 My wife couldn’t help but laugh as I seethed.

    And that’s okay – I got her back later, when she looked out the kitchen window to see his sister dog dragging my wife’s new planted dogwood across the backyard. What goes around, comes around. There’s a movie there, someplace. Such is the joy of our life.

    How did Maximus from the movie Gladiator put it?

    “Death smiles at us all. All a man can do is smile back.”

  29. This atheist simply does not feel the need to fill in the knowledge gaps with made-up stories, however beautiful those made-up stories can be. I do not claim there is no hereafter, nor do I claim there is. I have no proof of one or the other. And I’m not particularly bothered by it. I can’t know what an atheist ponders as they fall from an airplane, I’ve never fallen from an airplane. One doesn’t have to believe in an afterlife to celebrate and glorify the life that does exist here and now.

    As for Tex’s assertion that there is no reason–for an atheist–to glorify outside the boundary of self-satisfaction, that couldn’t be more wrong. Once you define self-satisfaction as encompassing all the satisfying, joyful, and hopeful people and experiences that make up being self-satisfaction. I myself cannot be satisfied or happy without the world around me.

  30. Tex, just go all out with the fountain. Get two bad ass concrete gargoyles delivered and have them flank the fountain, standing guard. Turn that moderate house in the Gothic wonder of Tulsa.

    😆

    You may be on to something. It might be worth using the remainder of my meager worth to put on a real display in the front yard with the fountain as the center piece, just to see my mother’s reaction.

    How about encircling those gargoyles with some of those fine garden gnomes and Lilliputians sitting on a banana yellow circle – like you find at paraphernalia stores?

    Kind of a montage of Ghostbusters, the Wizard of Oz and Rocky Horror Picture all in one for the elderly neighbors.

    Remind me later to tell you the story of my buddy’s neighbor with the yard art. He was so ashamed to be in proximity, he sold his house at a big loss before the real estate bubble just to move away. But the final straw was when the “neighbor” decided to change the pitch of his roof. Tower of Babel type stuff….

  31. “I wonder from time to time what joy a non-believer in Christ the Savior finds in Christmas, or at Christmastime.”

    Since community/family celebrations and gift-giving and sharing at mid-Winter existed long before Christianity; and since many of the themes and symbols that are celebrated at this time of year not only predate Christianity but were adopted by Christians, I wonder how you can ask that?

    For the record, I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong in Christianity adopting some of the symbols and traditions that existed. But it did happen. Another notch for Campbell’s theory of the collective unconscious?

  32. I think atheists more so reject the god that religion has presented, rather than rejecting a notion of a cohesive force keeping everything evolving. They all seem to believe in forces beyond what can be physically quantified. Things like emotions and a conscience come standard with human beings, except for a few deemed abnormal and psychopathic.

    I think they cannot fathom a personal god that would not force himself into their life and show himself in all his power. In some cases make all that is wrong right and not allow pain and suffering.

    But we are born out of pain. We are modeled through suffering. We are much fuller beings after we have lived this struggle of life. We honor those who have suffered the greatest for the rest of us and respect their wisdom. But do we learn from our history? I say no.

    We use human reasoning to fathom the unreasonable.

    Since we are everyone unique, we have only one true interface with our creator force. Though others may be close, none are identical, so our all-in-one and one-for-all concepts don’t fit any of us comfortably altogether. But we do need good guides and others can help us there.

    A child has a better connection with its source. Have you ever stared into a baby’s eyes? Awesome. They don’t have long attention spans, but that inside glow is captivating. It’s mind-blowing. You cannot do that without sensing that indescribable connection, especially if the child is your own.

    These babies come “batteries included” and with an existing “onboard” intelligence and OS, though recharging and programming is required. That is where the real parenting and responsibility comes into play, vastly determining outcome. The potential is great. And this should be our noblest act. Often we are too busy.

    I like the slowdown this time of year provides. It would be nice if it continued into the new year. This will be an interesting year to live.

  33. Another notch for Campbell’s theory of the collective unconscious?

    Kind of like the universal Borg, hey? A dramatic plot from say the TNG days of Star Trek is what we loosely call atheism’s collective consciousness? And exactly what physical constructs explain the ‘universal collective’, Kat? Is there like a universal collective DNA fragment? What part of the humane genome would explain this collective? Is it physics? Chemistry? Biology? A little bit of primordial amino acid thrown in for good measure? I assume animals have it, being it universal?

    ———-

    Actually, the season is called Christianity for a reason that doesn’t predate Christianity, and is fact created and named for its founder and the reason for the U.S. federal holiday which was celebrated here on these shores well before the inception of Independence. Since we don’t know the exact date or year of Christ’s birth, estimated between 6-2 B.C., probably 4-3 B.C, that would be Before Christ to you atheists, everything else is extraneous niceties – and for a time, Christmas wasn’t even celebrated by Christians, and still isn’t by some. Best estimates I’ve seen place Christ’s birth in what the Gregorian calendar would call April of 4 B.C., putting Christ’s death probably in September, 30 A.D. – Anno Domini, that would be the Year of Our Lord to you atheists. I suppose that would put the joke on you. Surprise, surprise. Feel free to use the more politically correct and atheistic palatable Common Era if you wish. Just don’t miss the dividing line of the Common Era. 😉

    There actually is a reason for adopting some of the pagan practices and dates. In the 4th century Anno Domini, Christianity imported the Roman Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians – sort of Roman Mardi Gras. Perhaps tacky, but that does help to explain the adaptation of the dates, ending on December 25th.

    But Christmas predated by pagan ritual?. Not hardly. Off by at least 14 billion years, give or take a billion best our little minds can comprehend of such numbers.

    See Kat, the Gospel of John tells us clearly Jesus was there from the beginning. Even Christ’s coming arrival is recorded in both the 1st and 3rd chapters of Genesis, that’s the first book of the Bible to you atheists, which would still predate any pagan ritual for Christmas that you hedonists atheists can dream up as excuse to minimize the real meaning of Christmas.

    Happy Kwanzaa, Kat. Power to the People! 😉

  34. “I wonder how you can ask that?” GypsyKat

    It’s been so long since I first believed that I can’t remember what it was like not to.

    Hi, by the way. From your latest post, Kat, I would think you an agnostic. Do you reject the notion of God?

  35. “…why would you care if there was peace on earth or goodwill towards men?”

    Because this is the world we all live in and we all only have 1 chance to live in it. Wouldn’t it be better to take your 1 ride in peace?

    There doesn’t need to be any transcendental quid pro quo, where we do good things in this life so that we can reap some reward in the afterlife.

    Living life of goodness and peace is its own reward. Wishing the same for others goes back to that Golden Rule you reject in theory and practice.

  36. “It’s been so long since I first believed that I can’t remember what it was like not to.
    Hi, by the way. From your latest post, Kat, I would think you an agnostic. Do you reject the notion of God?”

    It’s been so long that I realized faith was just made-up stories to fill that which we can’t yet explain that I can’t remember what it was like to have it.

    I do reject all defined iterations of God or a creator that have existed to date. What I don’t do is try to fill in the gaps with either definitive statements about what happens–or doesn’t happen–after death or make up stories about what can’t yet be explained. I choose the word atheist to mean anti-theism.

    Is there like a universal collective DNA fragment? What part of the humane genome would explain this collective? Is it physics? Chemistry? Biology? A little bit of primordial amino acid thrown in for good measure? I assume animals have it, being it universal?

    I don’t know Tex. If it exists (which hasn’t been proven) then there is surely an explanation for it. I find Joseph Campbell’s studies very interesting and was merely referencing the most commonly known aspect of Campbell’s studies when linking together winter communal celebrations through cultures.

    the reason for the U.S. federal holiday which was celebrated here on these shores well before the inception of Independence

    Except for when the Puritans tried to ban it.

  37. I don’t know Tex. If it exists (which hasn’t been proven) then there is surely an explanation for it. I find Joseph Campbell’s studies very interesting and was merely referencing the most commonly known aspect of Campbell’s studies when linking together winter communal celebrations through cultures.

    😆 Sorry Kat. You seem a nice enough gal. But you’re obviously one of these new age types. They always amuse me. Have you ever slept in a tree for weeks at a time to save it from the loggers? 🙂

    the reason for the U.S. federal holiday which was celebrated here on these shores well before the inception of Independence

    Except for when the Puritans tried to ban it.

    I know. That’s what I said above, though I wasn’t specific as to people, place or date. But Puritans didn’t ban the idea of Christmas, as that every day in the heart, and my point I have been trying to make throughout this thread. Puritans banned the celebrations adopted from Roman ritual, including the December 25th date. It’s not like you new agers are telling us something 80% of Christians already don’t know.

  38. “But you’re obviously one of these new age types. They always amuse me. Have you ever slept in a tree for weeks at a time to save it from the loggers?”

    Not new age, whatever that means. And never spent a night in a tree. I did protest the closing of a nude beach once. But normally, when I want to save or prevent something I vote with my ballot and my dollars. I’m far too urban to actually spend any time in the woods without copious amounts of REI gear.

    I was actually two credits shy of getting a second bachelor’s in religious studies. But Campbell is interesting. Mythology is a powerful force in humanity and comparative religion was a fascinating study at the time I undertook it.

  39. There doesn’t need to be any transcendental quid pro quo, where we do good things in this life so that we can reap some reward in the afterlife.

    I can’t pay my parents back for what they did. Am I taking care of my parents to reap some reward? Or am I doing it to honor them?

    Living life of goodness and peace is its own reward. Wishing the same for others goes back to that Golden Rule you reject in theory and practice.

    I don’t reject the Golden Rule in theory – you do. In fact Huck, you reject half of the Golden Rule that you subscribe in its entirety self admittedly. And that is what you are challenging me with here – and probably don’t realize it.

    The golden rule is two fold.

    The second part of the Golden Rule, the part you familiar, is dated around 1,400 BC saying, “Love thy neighbor as thyself” (Leviticus 19:18).

    But the common Golden Rule, the one you know, is prefaced by:

    Matthew 22:36-40
    36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

    37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Now Huck, fortunately for me you’re not worthy to be my judge concerning the Golden Rule in principle and application. You’re more than welcome to your opinion, and if you feel I reject “the Golden Rule”, so be it. But you should understand this. I find your your conclusions about life so deplorable and so empty, completely without hope, I would be shocked if we weren’t on opposite sides of the fence with respect to anything of real importance. I reject your idea of an empty Golden Rule in its entirety. Proudly so.

    Let me conclude by saying this. There is a national rage in Japan at this time of year, especially this year after the tsunami. It’s Beethoven Symphony 9, Ode to Joy. They are conducting the symphony all around the country as a practice of national healing and love. Think Michael Jackson, circa 1984 and the Thriller Album. Perhaps the Beatles in Shea Stadium. Young and old alike.

    Japan is a pagan country, for the most part.

    Huck, do you have any idea about the meaning of Beethoven’s Ode to Joy? It concludes with this: Do you fall in worship, you millions? World, do you know your creator? Seek Him in the heavens; Above the stars must he dwell.

    Even the pagans sing his praises…

    And like you, they don’t even know it. 😉

  40. Overall, not what I was anticipating for Christmas comments.

    As I sit here listening to my new R.E.M. album full of classic old songs (“The One I Love” presently), I’m reflecting on this thread. While it was triggered by some snark from me in the prior thread I think it also mirrors what an exhausting year it has been for many of us and our country in general. Our defenses our down and our propensity to fly off the handle even on Christmas day itself is greatly multiplied.

    When you look at what went down in 2011, it seems more hectic and crazed than usual. From Gabby Giffords getting shot, to the death of bin Laden to the pullout from Iraq, the year never took a breather. When a country has this much upheaval, it takes a toll on its citizens. The other day I heard someone say that the average American watching the White House and Congress is like a kid watching his parents fight. No one wants to see Mommy and Daddy fighting. It makes us insecure, even as adults.

    Personally the year was no better on a micro scale. From the first half of the year full of financial anxiety, to having to sell my beloved home in June (which was to me like a death in the family) to pretty poor health through most of Autumn, it has been a hard hard year.

    Quite honestly, good riddance to 2011. I usually hope for a better year coming but this year I don’t even think hope is needed. 2012 has GOT to be an improvement.

    Besides, “2012” has a nice ring to it. 🙂

  41. Tex your gift story is hilarious. I have to ask you the obvious … has your mother ever actually VISITED your home? You’d think she’d wonder “where might Tex put such a fountain? Maybe not a good idea.”

    I guess sometimes folks are overcome with the desire to please and it blocks out logical thought. 🙂

  42. So much so that when she isn’t around, it can be hard to find your way.

    Muffy, exactly how I felt and feel about my mother. To say she was a “presence” is to put it mildly. A true force of nature. As I commented earlier, 2011 has been one of my tougher years and even though she died seven years ago, I’ve often felt bereaved anew because she hasn’t been around to talk things through with. My wife and I “found our way” without her but damn it was so hard.

  43. Oh Muffy, another thing … about music. There are songs that put me right back to where I was when I first heard them. R.E.M.’s Automatic for the People came out around the time my grandmother died and I always associate that album (which oddly has contemplations about death) with her.

    I can’t even listen to Sarah McLachlan because her songs take me back to a bad relationship in the late 90’s. 😐

    On the bright side, the music of “A Charlie Brown Christmas” takes me right back to being a kid. 🙂

  44. I love the theme song to Peanuts. It’s actually kind of hard to play too. I used to play piano.

    I don’t think Mozart had much to worry about.

    Yes Rutherford – in fact, mom only lives maybe four miles away and I may see her six times a year. “The gift” is actually plugged in to the wall and working, and it is quite pretty. I’m not done – just making sure it worked.

    I took Poolman’s advice and took a good look even jacked it up to peek underneath. Fortunately, this is one you fill.

    Being you and I are approximately the same age, see if this doesn’t bring a smile to your face.

  45. The Theological discussion going on is quite enlightening. However I feel something is missing here.

    Taking into account the spirit of Christmas, did you call your elderly neighbor and check if she had family visiting for the day? Did you check if your neighbor with small children were able to provide stocking gifts? Did you give to your favorite charity in lieu of gifts to family and friends? Did you help out at the homeless shelter or soup kitchen?

    I did! Save the philosophy for another time. Although I am learning you guys have your own code of ethics here and I do admire the camaraderie you have.

    A Charlie Brown Christmas has really bad memories as after a horrendous house fire, the only Christmas tree we had that year was a “Charlie Brown” tree.

  46. Taking into account the spirit of Christmas, did you call your elderly neighbor and check if she had family visiting for the day? Did you check if your neighbor with small children were able to provide stocking gifts? Did you give to your favorite charity in lieu of gifts to family and friends? Did you help out at the homeless shelter or soup kitchen? I did! Save the philosophy for another time.

    Is there any reason you had to wait for Christmas to do as much? Like serving lunch at Thanksgiving as we pat ourselves on the newscast? Congratulations.

    Not to be difficult, I try to be charitable throughout the year…I’m not impressed with the piety shown of those at holidays.

    Thank you Lord, I Raji am not like those heathens…. 🙄

    Spare us the sanctimony. And nobody does charity better than Christians – at any time.

  47. A fill only fountain, you say? I guess you lucked out. Does it make nice water sounds? I hope so. You need to crank it on and listen to its bubbling wisdom. Maybe mom’s trying to soften your crabby ass. 😛

  48. It does make nice bubbling sounds.

    About how I imagine myself listening to you trying to communicate in public and at business. Blub, blub, blub, blah, blah, blah, drip, drip, drip.

    Mickey stops and gets himself a little drink from the trinkle about every time he walks by. Funny as all get out.

    Now I’ve got to do the electrical work, get out the conduit, grab the shovel, change the box. That will make my ass crabby, no doubt. Better look out tomorrow and walk softly. 😀

  49. I have a comment on atheism but it will have to wait till tomorrow. I finally got an appointment with a family doctor (after seeing a slew of specialists for various things) and I have to be there at 9 in the friggin morning when I should be on vacation. 👿

    No worries, I’m getting a flu shot, a handicapped parking permit signed (that damn gov’t interfering in our lives with those nasty ADA regulations), and I’ll bore her with an account of my various maladies. Fun stuff! Good times!

    See ya tomorrow.

  50. “Spare us the sanctimony.”

    But Tex, it’s too much fun to pull your chain 😆

    I know that deep down under that hard crabby veneer, there is a soft side or why else would Rutherford put up with you 😉

  51. But Raji, at least so far you’re not really capable of pulling my chain. I respond in return because it is sport to make fun what you must find some form of insightful, constructive criticism. I think you’re still dangling there sister.

    And sometimes it’s just fun to rattle the cage to see which ‘progressive’ chimp gets most upset.

    You see Raji, you take Poolman over there. He’s the beta male of the group, so you can throw a rock at him, and he just stares back picking bugs from his hair. Every once in a while, a pebble connects with his head, and he jumps around in circles for a spell. You know the show is about over when he drops a sermon into the mix. Then you have to wait a couple of days to wind him back up.

    That’s one thing you sycophants, toadies and rejects from the Fat Granny Dear Leader Crusade still haven’t figured out.

    Rats in a maze.

  52. Gay? He IS a character. Eccentric, yes. Gay? Not so much. He was raised an Orthodox Jew and converted to Orthodox Christianity after he went to college.

  53. Poolman, there is something you really need to understand that I haven’t been clear about, or you have misunderstood. Perhaps you’re not intelligent enough, or that you incapable of segmenting or differentiating somebody calling themselves Jew…the situation is far more dynamic and fluid that some Veteran’s Today article who feels it necessary to categorize everything as static.

    There are a multitude of secular Jews – who IMHO aren’t Jews at all being secular Jew is a contradiction of terms….

    …from the ACLU, Hollywood, Congress, ADL and a multitude of other leftist, progressive groups who I absolutely loathe and consider mortal enemies. They are every bit as nasty acting as any Muslim. And there is no doubt much of the anti-Semitism in the world today in large part attributable to ill behaving Jews, who misuse their position of politics and power. Don’t have to look any further than my own city to find that. I have no doubt in large part explains why Jews continue to find trouble throughout the world. I understand all that, even personally experienced some of it.

    And I still support Jews right to exist without threat. I still believe Israel is the Jews rightful, sovereign homeland.

    Your strange looking ‘holy’ man there I could find no fault. Does that surprise you? But those criticisms aren’t limited to just Jews and that is my point.

    Christmas day in Nigeria, radical Islamists blew up three Christian Churches for the sole reason they were Christian. There was no American Imperialism or western interference there Poolman. You and Huck, Rutherford and the other Muslim appeasers have been strangely silent about that episode. And that is happening all over the world. Jews are not bombing Christian buildings and killing women and children that I’m aware.

    Where is your condemnation of that? Why have you and Huck been so strangely silent about that episode if Christians are such a concern for you both (cough cough).

  54. Jews are not bombing Christian buildings and killing women and children that I’m aware.

    The key phrase in that statement is “…that I’m aware.” Because Huck has shown where Jews are doing just that. And regarding that, you choose not to be “aware”.

    Regarding the recent Nigeria church bombings. These are only the latest and the practice is not new as it has gone on for several years, only now the effort has been intensified. There is a full out effort to get us involved militarily in Africa and Nigeria is just one battlefield.

    The west has to be led to believe Christianity is under attack, despite the Muslims protecting the Christian people and churches. The Boko Haram, a group with proven links to the CIA and Mossad, was able to get through to several of these churches.

    Someday maybe you will be able to see the biggest threat to Christianity from any other “faith” has been Judaism. Always, and since Christianity’s inception, as it radically places Judaism’s tenets on their head. 😎

  55. “Christmas day in Nigeria, radical Islamists blew up three Christian Churches for the sole reason they were Christian”

    It was terrible. Nobody should die because of their religion. I have said as much on multiple occasions in the past.

    “Jews are not bombing Christian buildings and killing women and children that I’m aware.”

    Not yet anyway…

    Or maybe I should say, not for lack of trying.

    I have shown you several examples of violence, persecution, and general harassment against Arab Muslims and Christians by your beloved Jews. You discount it all. You will sell out your own kind to protect the image of Israel.

    And you don’t even get 6 pieces of silver out of it.

  56. No, you have done nothing of the sort showing Jews killing Christians. In fact, talk to Christian missionaries and scholars residing in the Bethlehem, and they will tell you specifically it is radical Islam that is killing Christians. We’ve got proof on video of this. More so, they will tell you it is rank propaganda that Jews are doing anything of the sort.

    You and that idiot Poolman appease evil, Huck. And you are evil. Don’t give me any of your bullshit about the golden rule – people like you are an anathema to the ‘golden rule.’

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/12/a-month-of-christian-persecution.php

  57. Tex, I think Poolman has presented you with an interesting person to evaluate. Monk Kapner (ok Poolman, NOT gay), is what to you Tex? Is he a self-hating Jew? Or a legit Christian? Were his parents right, born a Jew, die a Jew? Is he an antisemite?

    Your strange looking ‘holy’ man there I could find no fault.

    Really?

  58. Regarding the situation in Nigeria, my understanding is a note such as the one below was received by Christian elders who ignored it at their own peril:

    Dear Sir, my brother Obatu is being persecuted and his fortunes are at risk. We wish to transfer $3.5 million to your bank account to save this money from being confiscated by his persecutors. To show our gratefulness we will be most honored for you to keep $1 million for yourself. My brother Obatu needs you. To help please provide the following information:

    1) Your full name.
    2) Phone, fax and mobile #.
    3) company name if any, position and address.
    4)profession, age and marital status.
    5) Copy of int’l passport,drivers linsense,or any valid ID card. for
    proper identification before the payment. this is to aviod any wrong
    payment.

    or simply your bank routing number and account number.

    Oh and by the way, if we do not hear back from you within 30 days, we will bomb your church.

    😆 😉

  59. I said Monk Kapner was correct in the one video. There is indeed a war on Christmas – and really it’s on God. And much of that war by the ACLU, ADL, Hollywood types. Many, if not most, secular Jews, or JINOs as I call them who pack the courts because they are few in number, but obviously not in power. They are corrupt to the core.

    Is this strange looking man a self hating Jew? I didn’t watch the other videos so I can’t answer, because I find what Poolman posts generally either strange or trash so I mostly ignore it.

    There are tens of thousands messianic Jews, one whom I consider a friend, that I wouldn’t call a self-hating Jew and is certainly a Christian. We’re his parents wrong? No, they were half right. That makes them one-half more right than you. 🙂

    I believe I have made it abundantly clear that I think Poolman is not only not a Christian, but a fraud that works to appease Christianity’s enemies. I consider Poolman an enemy of pure Christianity. He practices a replacement theology – the same theology that blames Jews for the worlds ills, the conspiracies of Judaism, even the death of Jesus. It’s the same as the crusaders of hundreds of years ago, who didn’t distinguish between Jew and Muslim.

    I pretty much thought the same of your pal Winkle that you so admired. I thought he was pretty much a farce too – a milquetoast, smarter version of Poolman, and a troubled man; the latter I knew for a fact after a few conversations.

  60. Kat,

    Do you also “hate” the radicalized atheists with no faith that killed hundreds of millions throughout the 20th century?

    People with no faith have killed far more of their fellow human beings than people of any faith, and certainly in recent history.

    What these conversations have shown me is that not only is there a great deal of ignorance about my Christians faith, but also that all men, Christian or not, are inherently capable of great harm and require something much more than themselves.

    And I know one and only one that fits that description 🙂

  61. 😆 Tex’s “faith” SO much more resembles the character of Jesus. 😆

    One of my favorites. Surely doesn’t provoke any emotion. Enjoy.

  62. And now a brief comment on atheism.

    You don’t seem to be able to motivate others in great compassion or servitude. In fact, one of the real shortcomings I have found amongst atheists contrary to Kat’s statement above,is that atheists carry a message that apparently doesn’t resonate in any fashion, other than the psychological exercise of one skeptical thought or another.

    I can’t say I disagree with this Tex. From my perspective, the raison d’être of atheism is to deny the existence of God, not to promote anything but perhaps a reliance on science.

    One of you guys, I don’t recall who and I don’t want to guess for fear of offending someone, pointed me to some “bill of rights” of humanists. Now, I do think humanists try to offer a “god-less” variation on religious “rules of order”. In other words, they try to define a good way to live one’s life without worship of anything supernatural. I’m not a humanist because I don’t know enough about them to “sign up”. I’m a nullifidean, simply a person having no faith or religious belief. I’m not an atheist since I do not claim any definitive knowledge that there is no God and I consider anyone who does as arrogant as those who say with 100% certainty that there is.

    Since there is no transcendent purpose, why would you care if there was peace on earth or goodwill towards men?

    Huck answered this well but I’d like to add to it a bit. The “transcendent purpose” is not only to make the present day more inhabitable for us in the short time we are alive but to build a foundation for peace that can be enjoyed by our children and their children and on and on through the future.

    I’ll give you an example that may be hard for you to grok Tex (no insult intended). Shortly before my mother died (I think she knew she was sicker than she let anyone else know) she told my father that she was happy with the life she had lived and had done the things she “needed to do”. Primarily that meant knowing that my sister and I had made decent (morally) and successful (self sufficient financially) lives for ourselves. Her “mission” was getting her kids to the point where they could do well for themselves. Believing that she had done this was her salvation. My mother died with very few “loose ends”. She was content. I’m sure she wanted to live a longer life (dead at 67) but she was content.

    And my greatest preoccupation is staying alive long enough to see my daughter make a good life for herself. If she does that, I too will feel I’ve fulfilled my duty and purpose.

    That’s the transcendence that non-believers achieve IMHO.

  63. Damn, I just read that last comment back to myself and especially the last part sounded like Linus in “A Charlie Brown Christmas”:

    “That’s the meaning of secular Christmas, Charlie Brown.”

  64. Patti really knows how to sing her butt off.

    Hey Tex, DO watch the second video Poolman posted of the good monk. I guarantee you will disown him after watching that. Having a pretty good sense of your barometer, I am 99% sure you will find him a “Jew-hater”.

  65. Tex, interesting that Wickle has not posted in almost two years as Wickle. YOU happen to be the next to last person to comment on his last blog post.

    I vaguely remember his abandoning that blog and starting a new blog under his own name devoted purely to faith and no politics. Unfortunately I don’t remember the address of that blog, nor his real name so I don’t know what he’s up to presently. 😦

  66. Rutherford said:

    “I’m a nullifidean, simply a person having no faith or religious belief. I’m not an atheist since I do not claim any definitive knowledge that there is no God and I consider anyone who does as arrogant as those who say with 100% certainty that there is. ”

    That’s actually being an agnostic – not an atheist (or alternatively, a “pussy”). Agnostics are just atheists without the strength of their convictions.

    Of course, you can’t ever prove a negative, and everybody understands that. That’s why people don’t pussyfoot around about whether there is a teapot circling Mars – one that controls our destinies. You just say, “No, there isn’t one.” That’s because that, at some point of improbability you have to quit wasting time and just say, no there isn’t, and go on about your business – understanding all the time that there is an infinitesimal chance you are wrong.

    None of the atheists I know of talk of 100% certainty – about ANYTHING. They just say, in the words of Bertrand Russell: Not enough evidence, God Not enough evidence.

    Certainly not enough to worry about.

  67. I think peace is the main message, regardless of belief. If you can live at peace with your fellow humans, their particular beliefs are irrelevant.

    Radicals and extremists come from all sects and are usually stirred to violence by MANipulators™ to gain control of others.

    The only reason to force anything on another is to control them. Unless you are screwing things up, there should be no reason to control you.

    Guidance and teaching should be from those who are responsible for our existence, ultimately both parents. It is when they fail by whatever reason that we look elsewhere. Their responsibility has been given away to government and society, as marketing trends have promoted, and the results reflect that shift.

    Intrusions into our lives by way of marketing are all designed with a purpose and shape our perspectives.

    We are the first generation in existence with a lifetime of marketing invested in shaping us to be who we are. It is wise to research the intent of those who brought us here, IMO.

  68. PF maybe I’m splitting hairs but I reject agnostic for the very reason you say …. “pussy”. I’m pretty damn sure if there is a “God” He ain’t doing a thing for me. So an “interactive God” is one I just don’t believe in. But atheist bothers me too. Atheists insist the beginning of the universe is based in science and can (some day) be understood. That’s where I am capable of getting metaphysical on your ass.

    I believe some questions (like the origin of life) are unanswerable. We will never have the answer. It’s a mystery. And I’m content with that. One of the underlying reasons for wanting to know our origin, is to find a way to cheat death. I also don’t think that will ever happen. Even as life spans grow longer, folks are ALWAYS going to die.

    I like nullifidean for a couple of reasons. First, my Dad found the word one night after dinner when he was randomly reciting words from a dictionary (my Dad’s an English grammar nerd). So the term has some sentimental value. Second, almost no one has ever heard of it so I enjoy throwing people off. Third, it doesn’t carry with it the militancy that atheism seems to.

    Don’t get me wrong, I love watching a good snarky atheist practice his trade but I’d rather be more brotherly in my approach (even if Tex thinks I’m still a punk).

  69. Rutherford, I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but I don’t see any difference between denying the existence of any of a million things for which there is no evidence and denying the existence of an invisible wizard for which there is also no evidence. There are an infinite number of imaginings – why make any difference among any of them? It’s just a waste of time.

    You’re not a punk. If anything, you’re too damned nice.

  70. “Agnostics are just atheists without the strength of their convictions.” -PF

    The way I understand it is that agnostics don’t know and do not believe it can be known.

    Athiests deny the existence of God.

    Your dad sounds cute, Rutherford, and your mom – with her lasting effect on you – supports the case that we learn from the ones that we love.

    Raji, what I got from your earlier post was that the discourse on faith here was lacking any discussion of works. If so, then true enough.

  71. I think it obvious what Christ said was true. And I find it more than ironic that Poolman believes he’s a fine example of Christ Jesus, being Poolman hates practicing Jews who believe in the authenticity of the historical Old Testament, that Jerusalem will be city on the hill upon Christ’s return if you call yourself Christian, and Jesus and all of the Bible’s authors were Jewish but Luke (but then I consider the source).

    I know Pfesser is not an ignorant man. He’s as educated as anybody on this board, including if I understand, a degree in electrical engineering, including the M.D.. That’s a very impressive resume – as impressive as any I have read. I myself hold a degree in both biology and chemistry, a degree in Operations Research and an MBA, all with honors. So both Pfesser and I are more educated that the average Joe concerning sheer scholastics. I question the value of academia sometimes, but for the moment, hold that thought because I want to use it as an example.

    As a whole, when it comes to finances, economics, public schools, for the most part domestic and foreign policy, Pfesser and I are pretty close to holding similar beliefs, though we often favor different political candidates.

    However, now consider our diverging beliefs the two of us hold in God. Where Pfesser sees no evidence of God, I can’t get away from seeing about everything under the umbrella of God, even more so after I completed my science degrees. Physics, math, biology, chemistry, even philosophy, in everything do I see God’s hand clearly at work. I frankly have little faith in our science to explain most things, even less so with the respect to the practice of medicine.

    So there is obviously something very basic the separates how Pfesser and I perceive the world. It’s such a division of believer and unbeliever to me, there is no natural, humanist explanation for the divide.

    Beyond that, God tells us, Jesus tells us – that He doesn’t believe in atheists in Romans 1:19-20.

    Romans 1:19-20
    For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

    So this canard “that not enough evidence” just doesn’t ring true to me. In fact, I believe atheists are so duped, that I think their conclusions about our origins and the nature of the universe border on lunacy.

    But agnostics? I have a little more sympathy and a little more understanding. To me it’s not even a question if there is a Creator. I am 100% certain. And 98% of that is based on sheer observation, with the other 2% following Jewish history supporting how I arrived at my conclusions of exactly who is this God.

    Now to argue the nature of who that Creator is, in my opinion, a fair argument for debate.

  72. Poolman, your Cleese video led me to this other one. He says that Sarah Palin was funnier than Michael Palin of Monty Python. He also says her entire nomination could have been a Python sketch.

    Boys … just watch the Katie thing again and then explain to me why you defended Sarah so vociferously back in the day. From the mannerisms to the way Katie coaxes answers out of her like a five-year-old, I just don’t get what her appeal was. Truly an American Embarrassment. And Cleese is giving you an idea of what the world saw. Yikes!

  73. Your dad sounds cute, Rutherford

    Most folks like my Dad. He is a gentle man as well as a gentleman. 🙂 Underneath the mildness is real courage. I couldn’t have done better in the “parent lottery”.

  74. To me it’s not even a question if there is a Creator.

    Tex, if you accept the mathematical concept of infinity then why must “we” have a beginning and an ending? Why do we need a creator in an infinite universe?

  75. The way I understand it is that agnostics don’t know and do not believe it can be known.

    Mmmmm that does come close to me but not an exact fit. Plus I didn’t think agnostics had the “do not believe it can be known” part going for them.

    I agree with Muffy’s definition of atheist.

  76. Tex, if you accept the mathematical concept of infinity then why must “we” have a beginning and an ending? Why do we need a creator in an infinite universe?

    I accept that there are things beyond my comprehension, like no beginning and no end. Mass from no mass. Life from death. Physical from the spiritual. The formations of cell signaling, biological enzymes and cell cycles. Why there is so much injustice allowed, and why must the children suffer? Why Israel is the only M.E. country without huge pools of oil. 🙂

    But our universe is clearly finite, Rutherford. Not only that, it’s so beautifully tuned, it appears to defy the very laws of science that we believe define it. Perhaps God does that so He can laugh at arrogant know nothings like Hawkings and Dawkins to demonstrate their foolishness at the end of days. But you know that the universe finite.

    So what are you asking exactly?

    You know who you remind me of Rutherford? Thomas – the doubting one. Sometimes hundreds of years passed between God appearing to His people. The Jews in captivity of Egyptians for 400 years must have asked the same questions you did. Hundreds of years passed during the rule of Rome without so much as a peep. Thomas walked with Christ for 3 1/2 years, witnessing all kinds of supernatural miracles and still doubted until provided physical proof.

    Faith is a difficult concept for most. You still apparently believe my faith based on nothing but happy thoughts and wishful thinking. I believe what I read and believe what I see. 😉 I believe it’s all setting up beautifully as we “speak.”

  77. Maybe I’m some kind of Sufi weirdo. I bet I’m a heretic. I think I feel God more then I can make an argument for him.

    Lately, I’ve been feeling God call out to me.

    The arguments for why this makes me silly, bore me. Heard them all,. Hell, made them myself. Who cares. It’s time the Dead Rabbit becomes elitist around here. All your “there is no God” midnight yammering should have been exhausted in your dorm room. Move on. Attacking something based on faith and, at least when it comes to me, emotion, using rational thinking is pusy shit, if you ask me. It’s FAITH!!!!

    Hell, at least make it more interesting. Stick with the philosophy of Materialism. Your Epicureanism can’t explain away the mind, no matter how hard you try. And if you can’t explain away the mind, you can’t the soul.

    Besides. I got a good dose of what your “rationalism” can do today.

    I’m having another boy. Everything is healthy. It was a long ultrasound, and I asked many questions. By 6 weeks, the baby in the womb has all of it’s organs. Kidneys, Heart, Fingers. 6 weeks.

    And some of you sick fucks, err, I mean staunch rationalists, are ok with murdering these babies, the most innocent of humans.

    Save the Pontius Pilate bull shit about how “its not cool but you respect a woman’s right to murder a human because she carries that human.”

    If we’re going to rehash shit all the time, lets make it about abortion.

    We have doctors right on this blog blatantly braking the Hippocratic Oath. In your face theologians like Poolman tipping his hat to the most egregious of sins. We have millions of murdered babies. We have Santa Clause murdering the family while opening presents. Fucking suicide bombs ripping torsos in half, splattering guts everywhere. We have the New York Yankess and Justin Bieber. And, despite it all, I have been feeling God, motherfuckers.

  78. “In your face theologians”, eh? Funny. BTW, I don’t wear a hat. 🙂

    This was a good video. Not a professional production, but packed full of information presented real easy to understand. It’s from a Catholic perspective, so there are some things I have issue with, but for the most part it is information I have seen before. There is much info here about saints that is new to me. It’s a 55 minute long video.

    Scientific proof of God and supernatural miracles.

  79. But you know that the universe finite.

    I know no such thing. How do you know such a thing? Let’s bring this back to religion for a moment. You find the notion of a “void” upon death to be preposterous. You think there MUST be an afterlife. So what, Tex, is beyond the “edge” of the universe? A void? Perhaps both of us are being inconsistent?

    I used to “accuse” my non-believer mother of actually being religious because she would make the following pronouncement: “Man has always been here and will always be here.” It was her answer to evolution which she thought was pure hokum. So she believed not only in an infinite universe but an infinite history of mankind.

    All of our belief systems (even mine) satisfy some personal need. And the satisfaction of that need defies logic or consistency.

  80. Rabbit, arguing with you about what you “feel” is a waste of time. Your perception is real to you and there’s no need to try to talk you out of it. You think God is working through you. You think Jesus brought you to that funeral (I don’t say this mockingly). I think YOU brought you to that funeral out of a sense of duty and decency. But I’m not in your head dude, so f*ck what I think. Go with God if that is what is real to you.

    Congrats on having another boy … I know you were wondering how you were gonna handle a daughter. Unfortunately I lost my virtual bet with you. I swore you had a daughter on the way.

    Why don’t you name him Barack just to f*ck with Tex, BiW, Tigre etal. ? 😆

  81. I know no such thing. How do you know such a thing? Let’s bring this back to religion for a moment. You find the notion of a “void” upon death to be preposterous. You think there MUST be an afterlife. So what, Tex, is beyond the “edge” of the universe? A void? Perhaps both of us are being inconsistent?

    Rutherford, you’re so comically inconsistent and convenient while accusing all of us as being inconsistent and convenient in our arguments, I don’t even know if I would call it hypocrisy anymore. Hypocrisy has a dash of awareness of truth at least. I’ve never seen a man twist himself in a pretzel so much to escape the reality of the most obvious in the here and now. And you do it all the time.

    Look Sparky. It doesn’t matter that much to me, if you don’t believe in a heaven or a hell – really, it doesn’t. If you don’t choose to believe, you don’t choose to believe. I’m not going to try and convince you, other than to point out when and where you’re wrong. But at least have the courtesy when you believe all there is can be discovered by man’s science and demand we all respect that science, to abide by what the scientists have discovered. And that is that our universe is finite, with an origin and starting point.

    I will never understand the atheist mind. Clearly, clearly, clearly there is a design in this entire universe, from the subatomic, to the atom, to the human body, to the heating mechanisms of our universe. If there weren’t, the universe would have long been dead billions of years ago.

    Isn’t about time you grew up and started to think like an adult, Rutherford?

  82. Rabbit, ignore Rutherford.

    He’s one of those types who can’t believe it the most obvious, has to contort himself each day to justify his irreverent positions, but with all his heart believed in the ‘profundity’ of hope and change. How twisted is that logic? 😈

    Don’t you remember when we first arrived, the weekly glee of posting the fireside chats, as if anyone wanted to listen to a sham in love with his own voice, believing himself the reincarnation of Abraham Lincoln? 😆 I knew then, what I know now. Rutherford should have stuck with believing in Santa. He would have gotten further and looked less foolish in the long run.

    How gullible and empty does one have to be in believing in the magic of Obama, the greatness of Anthony Weiner, the idea that a community activist would stop the seas rising, but deny the Most High? Pitiful, isn’t it? Snicker….

    Congrats on the new boy, Brother Rabbit. Developmental anatomy was one of those medical school classes where I walked out thinking, “Wow!” The mind blowing amazement of procreation. Now you can see why the Prophet Jeremiah called it “Wonderfully made.”

    I’m glad I didn’t know what I know now while my wife was pregnant. I would have been a nervous wreck and felt even more helpless.

  83. Thanks! I watched the baby in the womb play for an hour. He was breached and then completely turned around and was playing with his feet. He was a real pain in the ass for the doc.

    I’m collecting money today from all the people who wanted me to have a girl so much that they bet on the gender.

    All I really cared about was healthy.

  84. I don’t think the universe is finite, Tex. I don’t know where that notion came from. Is that part of the “all matter already exists” theory? I don’t find that accurate, and certainly not biblical. Making stuff from nothing seems to be God’s MO. Our universe is still expanding.

    God has no beginning or end, but the universe has a beginning. It is so well designed that I can’t understand how folks can perceive it all happenstance. I see order and repetition from the smallest to the biggest components and it speaks intelligent design to me.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Name it Rutherford if you want to fuck with us.

    😆 That’s rich! Rutherford Rabbit or Lil Rut. Has a nice ring to it. 😀

    I guess Brer rabbit isn’t too good looking since statistics show attractive couples tend to produce girls. My wife just told me that and made me google the study.

    I know they are much different to raise. My grandkids, both boys, are two-and-a-half years apart. My one brother is 22 months younger than me. My girls were a little more than two years apart. There is a certain bond that develops that lasts a lifetime. I have another brother nine years younger that I love dearly, but we share a different relationship.

    I think it is easier to raise two, though that is all I know, and truly my wife did most of it. An only child, like Rutherford and his wife have, tend to be harder to raise and have a tougher time adjusting when they are grown. Once again, that is according to the dreaded statistics.

  85. Poolman, were you addressing that last comment to agree with me, or disagree? 🙂

    I don’t think the universe is finite, Tex. I don’t know where that notion came from.

    followed by….

    God has no beginning or end, but the universe has a beginning.

  86. I see where Obama has cost another Dim his seat. One Mr. Ben Nelson used to be a popular Dimocratic governor in a very red state. Obamacare, Cornhusker kick back, and slam, bam, thank you mam – the career is down the toilet. Lie down with the dogs, and get bit by the fleas. Old Ben knew what was coming down the pike.

    The Obama Fecal touch has turned everything to shit once again.

    The sham man’s touch is utterly amazing.

  87. Poolman, were you addressing that last comment to agree with me, or disagree?

    To disagree. You think those are conflicting statements?

    I think the universe was created from nothing, the way Genesis describes. Because it has a beginning doesn’t make it finite.

    Finite limits it, whereas real science has proven it is continuing to expand.

  88. Um Poolman, if you forgot the ‘in’ to precede finite, there isn’t a question if your statements conflict. They are conflicting statements. I know your purpose is to find some fault with everything I write and be a contrarian to everything I say, but here your statements taking in conjunction don’t make sense – mathematically, or by definition.

    The word finite means limited bounds. Existing, persisting, or enduring for a limited time only. If the universe created as I believe you believe and physicists believe, then by definition, the universe had an origin and is FINITE – not infinite, no matter how long it continues to expand.

    Something that has a beginning is FINITE. Rutherford believes in science, therefore science says the universe by mathematical extrapolation from the center of the known universe, and the opinion is almost universal amongst cosmological physicists, is between 13.0 to 14.7 billion years old. Though an incredibly long period of time, the universe would still be considered finite, even if it expands 10 gazillion gazillion more years as the universe is slowly cooling – a process known as heat death defined as no free energy. It’s a principle of basic chemistry.

    Anyway, I’m getting away from my original point, but Rutherford believes the science, and this is what science believes is true. My point was, if Rutherford is to continually use science as his arguments either for or against a creator, then it should be consistent with what science has proposed as factual.

    Make sense?

  89. Um Poolman, if you forgot the ‘in’ to precede finite, there isn’t a question if your statements conflict. They are conflicting statements. I know your purpose is to find some fault with everything I write and be a contrarian to everything I say, but here your statements taking in conjunction don’t make sense – mathematically, or by definition.

    I still do not agree. Numbers are infinite. You can always add one more. But they start at zero. Negative numbers are only conceptual.

    So “mathematically, or by definition”, having a beginning does not disqualify something from being infinite.

    Make sense?

  90. And that is that our universe is finite, with an origin and starting point.

    Huh? Is it not called the big bang theory? We don’t know how the universe began and therefore we don’t know that it DID begin. Nor do we know that it will end. It’s all theoretical. Just like evolution, about which you love to scoff.

    On this you and I should be in complete agreement. Science is just another version of faith in some cases. Have you not said so yourself?

    With stronger microscopes don’t we find more distant heavenly bodies every few years? And as we’ve noted in prior threads, those bodies are eons away in the past. The further out we find a star, the further back we have to date the “beginning” of the universe.

  91. the greatness of Anthony Weiner

    I call BS. No one watching Wiener pre-scandal could have said “I bet that guy’s gonna tweet his package around the internet.” It was a total shock and a terrible disappointment. The man had fire and real balls. I just wish he hadn’t taken a picture of them.

    And I might note, because you guys think I’m some slave to the Dem party, I ALWAYS differentiated between Wiener who could argue his case and Alan Grayson who was an empty blowhard. Wiener was the real deal. Sadly he had issues.

  92. You keep spelling your hero’s name wrong. Weiner….he had real balls alright. I don’t remember them being on fire, but it wouldn’t surprise me when his pregnant wife got through with him.

    Rutherford, you should be married to Tool ™ – great minds think alike. Two giants of science.

  93. Rabbit, ignore Rutherford Tex.

    Always be weary of someone who hears you confess a bit of faith and then jumps on top of you to attend his next church service. As soon as you shared your funeral story, Tex jumped on it like a honey badger on a snake. (H/T to Tigre for introducing me to the honey badger!!) You brought out the evangelical in him. Don’t get me wrong, his motives are pure and wholesome.

    But believe it or not, so are mine. I’ve read a lot of your stuff on this board over the past few years and playing armchair psychologist I think you’re scared to death of being really smart and really a stand-up guy. The trash-talking docks worker is the model you want to emulate. Heaven forbid you might actually be deep down an intellectual who with different circumstances might have ended up as big a nerd as any on this board.

    Call it condescending, call it mamby-pamby, call it pollyannish, I just don’t want you running away from your better self. If Jesus brings you comfort, more power to you but I submit if you accept your better self, you’d do fine without Him too.

  94. An only child, like Rutherford and his wife have, tend to be harder to raise and have a tougher time adjusting when they are grown.

    I think that depends greatly on how the kid is raised. My sister and I were essentially “only children” because we were 11 years apart. I think if an only child is more or less ignored by his parents, there will be adjustment problems. My vocabulary grew at a much faster rate than my peers because my adult parents included me in conversations and I went everywhere with them.

    Our daughter is becoming more of a conversationalist lately and we’re amazed by how much she understands.

    It’s been said before on this board but I’ll say it again … how folks turn out is 95% the by product of parenting.

  95. Regarding Ben Nelson he has no one to blame but himself. If you’re a blue dog like he was then bark like a blue dog. Mofo was against Obamacare before he was for it before he was against it. A man without principle. Good riddance.

  96. I don’t necessarily use science to disbelieve a creator Tex. I disbelieve a creator on the face of it. I don’t need alternatives.

    As for infinity, Tex you’re giving Poolman an unnecessarily hard time. He’s talking spacial infinity and you’re talking temporal infinity. The universe CAN be spatially infinite but have been “created” in one fell swoop at “the beginning”. Ergo, you and Poolman can both be right.

    Then again 😳 if the universe is spatially infinite that means as we “see” parts of the universe further and further away, that means they also existed longer and longer ago. If distance wise we never reach an end, that implies time-wise we never reach a beginning.

    This is blowing my mind maaaaaaaaan.

  97. Two giants of science.

    Tex, word to the wise. Anyone who believes in miracles including a virgin birth should be extra-careful to criticize others’ scientific bona fides.

    Just sayin’. 😐

  98. “Clearly, clearly, clearly there is a design in this entire universe, from the subatomic, to the atom, to the human body, to the heating mechanisms of our universe.”

    Who designed the designer? And when?

    “If there weren’t, the universe would have long been dead billions of years ago.”

    But it isn’t dead, is it?

    Think about it a minute. Any path to a particular end is very, very unlikely. Your path to this moment is one in a hundred trillion, isn’t it? One Tex sperm out of hundreds of millions. Millions of decisions that you personally made, that could have gone one, two, or twenty ways, but you chose THESE and they brought you here. Why, it’s so unlikely that it can’t be true, isn’t it? But there had to be SOME path and the fact you took the one you did is what brings you here to indulge yourself in pondering its unlikelihood.

    My head hurts.

  99. “Huh? Is it not called the big bang theory? We don’t know how the universe began and therefore we don’t know that it DID begin. Nor do we know that it will end. It’s all theoretical. Just like evolution, about which you love to scoff.”

    Rutherford, bless your heart, but sometimes you are SO frustrating. These things are theories in the same way “electron theory” is a theory. In science, the word “theory” does not mean a guess. It means the best understanding we have of a given phenomenon. All such theories are by definition incomplete, but are given great weight because they are arrived at by the Scientific Method, which is pretty airtight.

    Because we don’t understand at least 99% of the universe – and I’m sure that is an underestimation – doesn’t mean those things we don’t understand are magic and came into being by an invisible wizard’s spoken word. (How would that work, anyway? The syllables run around and gather molecules and assemble them into volcanoes, oceans, people and polecats?)

    “On this you and I should be in complete agreement. Science is just another version of faith in some cases. Have you not said so yourself?”

    No matter who said it, it is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. If it is faith it can NOT be science, no matter who says it is. Faith is belief without evidence, and if there is no evidence it is not science, so the two are forever and everywhere mutually exclusive.

  100. Rutherford, anybody that challenges me to answer what is outside the edge of the universe shouldn’t mention the word bona fides. 😆 😆 You understand the word universe like Tool ™ understands the word finite.

    One of the dumber statements of “fact” among many you’ve made.

    Guess it never dawned on you that most people in this country do believe in the virgin birth, as did most of our Founders, as did most of our most famous scientists, as did most who created the formations of Western civilization.

    Contrast that with your roots and your thinking, where most people believe in the witch doctors, black magic, REM, the Power of the Stones, Gaia, and voodoo. Yeah…Where is the atheistic version of Sistine Chapel? Hmmm? What agnostic music equivalent of Handel, Mozart, Beethoven? What’s the Last Supper equivalent in your camp? A blank slate?

    Want to mock their bona fides, Rutherford? Guess I’m in pretty good company. Your company is Richard Dawkins, bad haircut and all. And exactly the reason I think your selective good in this thread phony and plastic as hell – no pun intended. 😉

    I’ll still don’t understand why you’re so chicken to call Jesus and His entire story a fraud. Get hot or cold, man. Quit being a wimp and go for it.

  101. But it isn’t dead, is it?

    No, but it will be without intervention, though it should have been dead long ago. That isn’t a theory – that’s a law of thermodynamics.

    The more you doubt, the more you mock, the more God defies your limitations and blinds the senses. Did you answer for me the biological evolutionary concept that might bother to explain the error checking mechanism of DNA replication? I’ve got a billion questions for the Sam Harris God is dead guys. And not a one of them even makes the attempt to reconcile the problem. Amazing stuff these atheists – how they can suspend disbelief.

    You got to admit Pfesser. Even for 3.6 billion years, that’s some kind of evolutionary trick of random mutation. Kind of OH SHIT it won’t work evolutionary mechanism. 🙂

    Rule #1 of the seven things God hates.

  102. I love how some people think that group-think is an indication of correct thought.

    What makes it really comical is the disgust for our popularly-elected president.

    I guess group-think is only an indicator of correct thought when one is a member of the group.

  103. Oh, I get it. Because Tex mentioned the millions of people who are Christian.

    The reason Tex brings up the numbers is not theological.

    I think he’s responding to comments like Rutherford made in 114.

    What Rutherford really is saying that one is confined if one is a believer. He’s practically giving me a pep speech, fearful the Rabbit will be a square.

    Tex is saying fuck that. The Western World was built on Christianity. And its the most creative, dynamic culture in world history. It created the Sistine Chapel and the Constitution.

  104. Rutherford, I don’t get why you always bust my balls with this closet intellectual shit.

    I love learning about stuff. I’m probably got more hobbies then anyone I know. The world and the people in it fascinate me to no end.

    I’m also a douche bag who still brags about his bench press well into his 30’s.

    I’m kind of anxiety ridden worry wort, too.

    Secretly want to fuck slightly fat black chicks.

    Tried to read Jean-Paul Sartre and didn’t understand a word of it. Loved Edward Gibbon’s The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

    My favorite book Joseph Heller’s Catch 22.

    I’m a Scorpio. I really do like long walks on the beach.

    But enough about me.

  105. Rabbit, if Huck is referring to my comment about “group think” of Christians, that group think has been passed on for about 1,950 years now and has a record of success that simply can’t be measured by any other known entity. Government, medicine, science, art, music, linguistics, hell – even sports – all unsurpassed by any measure of history. Easily and empirically proven.

    Now if you want a classic textbook example of inane group think, look to liberal arts schools and the people that teach them. Walk on to a college campus and throw a rock. You can’t miss a Muslim appeaser and Dhimmi. Bleating sheep, puppets with the atheistic hand up their arse, aiding and abetting sheer evil, and shams on par with Obama.

  106. I love learning about stuff. I’m probably got more hobbies then anyone I know. …

    Hey Rabbit, do you realize that comment taken in its entirety sounded like it was posted to an Internet dating site? 😆

    Damn, if I were a chick I might have clicked on your “ad”. (Especially that part about long walks on the beach.)

  107. No, but it will be without intervention, though it should have been dead long ago.

    Ahhhh Tex, you’re FINALLY worried about global warming. 😀

    Ok Tex, time for me to show my theological ignorance again. Do you think there’s any chance we (mankind) can totally f*ck this thing up (let’s say via nuclear war) before Jesus has a chance to come back and save the believers?

    I’m guessing such a human f*ckup has already been prophesied in the Bible thus making my question moot.

  108. Tex, not for a second do I think I’m going to change your mind or influence your thinking, but Christian groupthink being responsible for all the successes of culture over the last two thousand years is hardly as simplistic as you make it out to be. Galileo as a perfect example of knowledge in defiance of the church. And do not forget atrocities committed in the name of the church, both large and small. Political structures designed and funded to further the power of the church. Literacy suppressed for centuries to empower the church officials over the people. Yes, without doubt, many great advances were made by people of faith and I do not take that away from them. But to whitewash two thousand years of complex history by attributing it all to Christianity is ludicrous. I will concede that a shared philosophy and framework were essential for the creation of any advanced society–for a time, but some of the greatest advances were done in defiance of the faith, as well as some attributed to the faith. The commonality is that all were human.

    You also seem to ignore the cultural foundation that Christianity built on, from Babylonia, the Library of Alexandra, Egypt, the list goes on. What we have is not a celebration of a faith, but a celebration of humanity built century over century.

    You celebrate your god. I celebrate people.

  109. “Did you answer for me the biological evolutionary concept that might bother to explain the error checking mechanism of DNA replication? ”

    That, of course, is the oldest trick in the book: attack a discipline whose stock-in-trade is investigating the unknown by saying that there are things it doesn’t know.

    Of course there are things we don’t know! That’s the whole point of science, isn’t it? When we can explain everything, science will cease to exist.

    I think the greatest difficulty modern humans have is understanding what big numbers really mean. Trillions of organisms operating over billions of years, each adapting and modifying its offspring in response to environmental conditions, is just not something we can wrap our brains around, hence we say “It just can’t happen that way; it had to be magic.”

    We spent literally over a million dollars at my hospital on security for the nursery, so that nobody can steal a baby. We even have periodic drills.

    What a waste. There has never been a baby stolen at my hospital since it opened in 1924, nor in my county – ever, nor in any of the surrounding counties. Why did we spend such money? Because, 1) the govt paid for it (you paid for it) and 2) people have irrational fears of massively unlikely things, because they don’t understand the numbers. Ditto evolution.

  110. “The Western World was built on Christianity.”

    Uh, no. It was built WHILE Christianity was extant, not ON it.

    “And its the most creative, dynamic culture in world history.”

    I think so too.

    “It created the Sistine Chapel and the Constitution.”

    No, people created those things. Religion was the inspiration for the Sistine Chapel, I’ll certainly give you that, but of course there is the opportunity cost thing; we should discuss that I think.

    What kinds of other things could have been built with the money and labor that went into making these large church buildings that produce nothing? How many granaries could have been built? How many ships could have been built to carry out international commerce? How many tons of iron ore or copper could have been mined and turned into iron, steel or bronze machinery to till the earth?

    Unthinkable numbers I would submit, but instead the labor went into shrines to superstition, oppression and priestly debauchery. What a waste.

  111. re: opportunity cost.

    Very interesting…the Chartres Cathedral was built mostly in the 1100’s – about 900 years ago – and would cost about 300 million dollars to build today. Suppose you started today with 300 million bucks and compounded it at, oh, five percent or so. What would its value be in 900 years?

    Well, using an online calculator, $3 would compound to about 1 X10^20 dollars, which is many times more money than is currently in the world; I think it probably cost more than three bucks to build, even back in 1100AD. 300 million? Too big for the calculator to even consider.

    So that gives you some idea of what churches like Chartres really cost humanity.

  112. DR, congrats on the baby! I have two boys as well and there’s nothing like it.

    I’ve had a hard time with organized religion for a long time. Too many deaths in the name ‘God’. But I don’t shun religion or denigrate peoples faith in it. I also don’t forget that this is a Christion nation. Recent polling showed 78% had a strong religious faith, 98% of which were Christians. I’m frankly tired of the extreme minority- militant aetheists- denying fact, history and rights to the overwhelming majority in this nation. I think there is a lot of room for God in our society, regardless of what package he/she comes in.

    Happy New Year everyone!

  113. “I also don’t forget that this is a Christion nation. Recent polling showed 78% had a strong religious faith, 98% of which were Christians.”

    Allow me to do a little substitution there. I think these numbers are pretty close:

    72% of Americans are white, so this is a white nation.

    Do you agree with that? If not, then what criteria must be fulfilled for it to be a “white” nation? A “Christian” nation? A majority? What? How can you tell whether a country is a “white nation” or a “Christian nation?”

  114. No Pfesser, I’m just showing the lunacy of denying the grand design.

    Not attacking evolution in the least, except to easily demonstrate that left to its own accord, evolution can’t begin to explain the how and the why. There is no discovery awaiting you, other than how the mechanism works. Your scientific methods will be left empty because you will neither observe it nor repeat it. There are no natural explanations of life, the formation our our universe. It is simply there – something which you try to deny.

    Evolution may or may not have been the mechanism for certain facets of species and that a worthy debate, but you would be left cold to explain the forces and the intricacies of even a single cell under the admission, “We have not discovered it yet..” Yes, I know. You haven’t discovered a great many things yet, not all limited to scientific finding.

    Being you like to bluff the logical fallacy rule, let me now demonstrate one of you ‘red herrings.’ Your opportunity cost test could be applied to any form of building, art or entertainment. Two years ago, people spent over $700 million on the U2 tour. Think of how many deaths that could have prevented in Africa or Haiti. How many air conditioning units it could have purchased for the poor. How many could have been fed with a budget greater than many countries. If I applied a formulation of future worth 1,000 years from now, the number would require exponential notation. But then it would require exponential notation if I took one penny and doubled it for a month too.

  115. 72% of Americans are white, so this is a white nation.

    Ask a member of the black caucus if they consider this a ‘white nation’; or Al Sharpton; or Jeremiah Wright. All wail about OUR WHITE NATION.

  116. Kat, unlike Pfesser, your rebuttals are easily rebutted. They require no science and rudimentary history to dismiss. And no, I need not travel any further than this blog to determine who I find edifying and who I don’t, so you are correct that you will carry zero influence in changing me, mainly because I find people like you so unedifying. I’ll be friendly, but you are not somebody that I would not care to associate outside a virtual debate. Don’t feel singled out. There are others here, including the blog owner I could say the same.

    Galileo as a perfect example of knowledge in defiance of the church.

    Galileo never once denied God or even the Catholic Church, anymore than Martin Luther denied God or the Church. You won’t for a second catch me not admitting the church, more specifically the Catholic Church has a history of both atrocity or corruption. Churches are made up of fallible people.

    That still does not change the fact for over a 1,000 years of Western culture, the church influence is immeasurable to western culture. If you don’t believe, I once again challenge you to show me your Handel, your Mozart, your Beethoven. Show me your Da Vinci, your Newton, your Copernicus, your Mendel, even your Galileo. I could name thousands more.

    Literacy suppressed for centuries to empower the church officials over the people.

    Perhaps. But your now demonstrating either bad history, incomplete knowledge, or perhaps godless propaganda. Consider the printing press. And what was it designed exactly for? The mass production of the Johann Guttenberg’s Bible was published becoming the first book to be published in volume. You can not get away from the influences Kat, no matter how you spin.

    Yes, without doubt, many great advances were made by people of faith and I do not take that away from them. But to whitewash two thousand years of complex history by attributing it all to Christianity is ludicrous.

    I’m not limiting advances to Christianity, because not all inventions were the creation of Western Culture. There are obvious cultural influences of both Greek, Jew and Rome. But since the year approximately 300 A.D. (that’s Anno Domini for you atheists), to deny the Christian Church’s formation of western culture is what is ludicrous. The very tormentors of the church became the cornerstone of the church.

    Try to find me a lasting parallel history Kat. You won’t find one.

  117. ” I’ll be friendly, but you are not somebody that I would not care to associate outside a virtual debate.”

    You and me both darlin’.

    “And no, I need not travel any further than this blog to determine who I find edifying and who I don’t,”

    I think you highlighted a key difference between us. I travel far afield of this blog, as much as I’m liking it. And it’s obvious who else does as well. I also am not so simplistic and shallow to believe I know anyone on this blog based on comments on this blog.

    And in my comment, I never denied the influence of Christianity. I described as ludicrous your simplicity.

  118. “except to easily demonstrate that left to its own accord, evolution can’t begin to explain the how and the why.”

    Sure it can, and it does – the “how,” anyway. The “why” is a philosophy question and science is silent on that.

    “There is no discovery awaiting you, other than how the mechanism works.”

    Fine. That’s all I’m interested in.

    “Your scientific methods will be left empty because you will neither observe it nor repeat it.”

    I don’t know what that means. Sorry. If you mean evolution, that’s not so; we observe evolution – in bacteria or cancer, for example – every day.

    “There are no natural explanations of life, the formation our our universe.”

    Says you. I disagree. Just because we don’t know what the explanation is does not mean it doesn’t exist. But we will know. We will. You want to talk faith? That I have faith in, but it is not a faith born of credulity; it is born of experience in man’s boundless and insatiable curiosity.

    “It is simply there – something which you try to deny.”

    I deny nothing. I really don’t CARE how it happened. I just want to KNOW how it happened. I’m not married to any particular explanation – I just want to know what that explanation is. If gods are the answer, so be it – but I won’t believe that until I see the evidence that it is so. To do otherwise would be foolish.

  119. Huck, since I don’t find you terribly bright, how so?

    I think you have to work really hard at even twisting to even stay in the conversation most of the time. By all means, document for me why that humorous, because not only do I find your knowledge lacking, I have found your history even in the academic sense horrid.

    Here’s your moment to shine. 😉

  120. Tex, you have your work cut out for you. That GypsyKat is a tough cookie!

    GypsyKat, have you any other blogs you recommend? You had mentioned that you travel far afield. I’m always up for something new.

  121. It is crazy the amount of money we spend on entertainment, concerts being one very small part. The U2 example given as only one in hundreds, though they have done plenty of good with the wealth and publicity they have garnered. But yes, much is spent on frills that otherwise are not benefiting the human cause. A waste of money, maybe, but no one was forced to pay for it or taxed unjustly.

    Unlike our sports facilities and venues, which are the modern cathedrals where we worship in America. We Americans promote and support athletics, generally giving it top priority in our education system and provide it prime time media coverage. In many cases, it gets top slot in our priorities list.

    That is moreso where our “faith” has landed, “Christian” nation or not. We do more to promote human achievement than we do to provide humane accoutrements.

    Then there is the whole war machine and our dedications there.

    The religion we each practice is where we choose to place our faith and income. We all have religion, though not all these practices and rites are dedicated to our Creator. We have the free will to make those decisions, and like time, we will be accountable for what goes through our persons.

  122. Pfesser, just so you’ll know, you are carrying on a debate with somebody other than Tex at Rutherford’s sister blog. I haven’t been there in weeks until this morning, where naturally I had to change my IP to answer your facetious charges toward me. Do you not have any shame bad mouthing poor, innocent Tex when Margaret gets her feelings hurt and she attempts to shoo me away naked and all alone? 😉

    Sure it can, and it does – the “how,” anyway. The “why” is a philosophy question and science is silent on that.

    Then answer my question of how or the why evolution explains the construction of the error checking routine of DNA replication. Or explain the need for a cell cycle. Or explain how cell signaling came about. Or explain how RNA derived from DNA, but lost it’s own error checking routine in the process. Should be a simple task to at least hypothesis for the evolutionary scientist. Venture a guess….

    So let’s see. Binary fission is mitosis, and the ability to development immunity in the one in a million chance represents the origin of everything? Actually and mathematically, that’s a pretty weak example you just made, because you are telling me you are not interested in the how. And if I introduce the next antigen, the chances mathematically overwhelming your one evolutionary immune bacteria will die, and you’ll be back to square one working with the base model. As example, you can mutate a fruit fly with four wings, but that’s an evolutionary dead end. You can’t get a breeding four winged fruit fly.

    For a supposed rational skeptic and one grounded in the sciences, that’s quite a stretch even for the atheistic unbeliever, being you just skipped from point ‘A’ to point ‘ZZZ’ without so much as explaining one letter between.

    I’ve seen the “incomparable” Stephen Hawking spend an entire lifetime trying to explain away the physical construct of that gazillion trillion degree white light. He’s no closer now than he was 40 years ago, but just as stubborn in the denial. And since he couldn’t even venture a guess, he’s switched over to a new hypothesis – the universal number of universes. 😆

    So Pfesser, where did all the mass of the universe derive from in that single hot subatomic?

    Don’t bother. Your insipid answer always a different flavor of the same “one day we will….”. I feel very confident in announcing to the world, by the time you think you’ve got it figured out, we won’t need to worry about the when, the how, or the why.

  123. And in my comment, I never denied the influence of Christianity. I described as ludicrous your simplicity.

    I prefer to keep things simple. In reading that blog of yours, I would simply describe you as ‘simpleton’. 😀

    But for someone who prides herself on being astute, this comment deserves special accommodation for sheer inanity of thought:

    I think you highlighted a key difference between us. I travel far afield of this blog, as much as I’m liking it. And it’s obvious who else does as well.

    Do you think that entitles you to some uniqueness? Some special quality? That you travel afar on the internet? 😈

    I also am not so simplistic and shallow to believe I know anyone on this blog based on comments on this blog.

    Strange. Because with virtually everybody on this blog that has stuck for an degree of time, even those who have no blog, I can tell you almost to a person how many children they have, their likes and dislikes, most definitely their politics, their religious affiliation or lack thereof, the extended family members and friends and what they are like, their like and dislike of humor. Perhaps one remains an enigma.

    The other, without having a clue to what they look like besides the blog owner, I could ask a series of no more than 3-4 questions and pick them out of an anonymous lineup on a bet. Perhaps you’re not very perceptive – surely not as perceptive as you would like to think.

  124. “Do you think that entitles you to some uniqueness? Some special quality? That you travel afar on the internet?”

    You assume I limit myself to the Internet? Hmmm.

    “I prefer to keep things simple.”

    That’s painfully obvious. I prefer things to be what they are. Not oversimplified or made overly complex. To reduce everything to simplicity (particularly when doing so misrepresents reality) is really the mark of a simpleton.

    PFesser, for blogs, I mostly follow my local stuff. Love the Stranger’s Slog, and I don’t think it’s only interesting to Seattle folks (and it’s the home of Dan Savage). Slashdot is great if you’re into the heavy tech/geek community. I’m actually an inconsistent blogger/commentor (as my own attests). I’m trying to get myself in better consistent practice. Hence one of the reasons for my presence here. Though I cannot keep up with you guys! Damn J-O-B and unplugged parts of life ;-).

  125. You assume I limit myself to the Internet? Hmmm.

    I have to keep it simple with you. My gawd, when you told me of your educational background, that pretty much limits the conversation to sounds and colors – primitive dialogue. Exactly what are you versed in, no matter the source? Where’s this depth? Lay one on me.

    So far, I’ve gathered:

    You’re an Obama rube, steeped in AGW which we had great fun at your expense when you went down that road. You left that subject with skid marks. Your own blog is an abortion, a large part of it without comment about Sarah Palin derangement – and her wardrobe.

    Hell, I saw today where Michelle Antoinette Obama had on a $2,000 sun dress. Aren’t you going to make a blog entry on that excess, Minnie? Talk about putting a pig on lipstick. Like dressing Cheetah in purple royal garb. (Cue in yodeling Carol Burnett Tarzan Yell)

    Tell me you work at NARAL or NOW just to complete the vision, and you’re one of those pit hair ‘Hairy Women of Seattle’ advertised I saw up plastered on mailboxes while in Washington? 😈

  126. “With stronger microscopes don’t we find more distant heavenly bodies every few years?” – R

    Really R? I’m pulling for you, really I am. I don’t agree with you but I’m pulling for you. But with statements like this it’s like rooting for the Cubs. 😉

  127. “If it is faith it can NOT be science, no matter who says it is.” Pf

    Two words. Placebo effect.

    I think you and Tex are nibbling on two ends of the same hotdog. Careful when you meet in the middle, Ten Gallon has never been one to hold his tongue. 😉

  128. Oh Thor, I wish I had caught that.

    I get so exasperated with Rutherford when it comes to science and religious debates, I don’t even read his responses anymore. I catch two words to get the content and rant right back at him out of bad habit. I readily admit as much. 😆

    Now it is too late to ridicule with that little tidbit. Damn. 😡

    Ah, it probably doesn’t matter anyway.

    I’ve decided Rutherford is practically impossible to embarrass. It’s like Poolman. You can knock them down, stomp on them, dogpile them, bite, hit, kick and leave them for dead, even scooping the dirt right up to their chin. You’re just sure they will bleed out and desiccate.

    And the next day, there they are again preaching maddening ignorance. I don’t know how many lives my two pals have, but it’s a bunch.

  129. Tex you are hilarious. I totally defended Sarah Palin’s wardrobe. I was simply appalled at myself that I couldn’t even virtually run up a six figure bill at Bergdorf’s or Neiman’s even allowing for what I (seriously) considered a necessary wardrobe for a female’s vice presidential run.

    I was a Hillary supporter who settled for Obama.

    What did I tell you about my education background except that I almost qualified for two–instead of just one–bachelor degrees?

    I don’t care what Michelle Obama, or any woman, spends her own money on. Though I would prefer to put that kind of money towards Alexander McQueen shoes, each to her own.

    As for where I work, I’ve already stated I work in tech.

    But, have fun forming the picture you like.

  130. I have a worn keyboard that for some reason many of the keys are beginning to stick

    Stay off the porn sites dude. Or better, stop wacking off to Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin. 😉

  131. With stronger microscopes …

    OH BLOODY HELL!!!! ROTFLMAO

    Thor you were the first to catch that (or at least the first to call me on it).

    I meant TELESCOPES

    Really, I’m not THAT stupid.

    P.S. If you take issue with my observation even with the needed word substitution then I’ll need more help from you.

  132. I catch two words to get the content and rant right back at him out of bad habit.

    That would explain why your counterarguments are so weak. 😉

    Personally, I think it’s a combo of exasperation and a touch of laziness.

  133. When you learn to see God in all people, the distinction evaporates.

    Thor this reminds me of my Christian roommate in college who asked me if I believed in love. When I said yes, he said ‘then you believe in God.”

    At least he was trying to be inclusive. He ended up marrying a gay minister thereby disqualifying him from true Christianity in Tex’s eyes. 😉

  134. “Or better, stop wacking off to Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin.”

    Yeah, you’re going to hell. Might as well develop a taste for Napolitano, Hillary, “ol Onion Booty, Kagan, Sotomayor, Rosie, Pelosi. . . Chaz Maddow. . . most any female liberal commentator. It’s going to be bad down there.

  135. I don’t care what Michelle Obama, or any woman, spends her own money on.

    Oh but Kat, haven’t you heard? Michelle is spending YOUR money on her nice things. The fact that Obama is a millionaire based on book sales alone is irrelevant. They don’t touch that money. They have all their vacations and fun off the taxpayers back.

    Right, Gorilla and Tex? 😕

  136. Rutherford’s sister blog.

    I really do resent that. I hold no claim nor any fondness for M&H. 😦

    Eww! I agree Rutherford, that was a low blow!

  137. Tex my friend your brain is so pretzel twisted it almost hurts to read your comments anymore. You say evolution has some merit but then in the next breath dismiss it for not being a complete answer. You imply there are no complete answers in the “natural world” but then scoff at me when I say some things will never be answered ….

    AND I don’t need to venture outside the natural world to try to answer them.

    Ask a member of the black caucus if they consider this a ‘white nation’; or Al Sharpton; or Jeremiah Wright. All wail about OUR WHITE NATION.

    Pure unadulterated bullsh*t. I believe members of the black caucus would say that certain whites don’t understand that this is NOT a white nation. Sadly, many of you either forgot your American history or have signed up for the alternative (false) version being promoted nowadays, and truly believe this is a Christian nation.

    Hate to break it to you Sparky but this is a secular nation. Granted we have some idiosyncrasies that have allowed God to appear on our money and prayer to make its way into Congress but that is for lack of courageous Americans who should tell folks to cut that sh*t out.

    God belongs in your church and in your home. Not in my public school nor in my taxpayer financed buildings and institutions.

    If I’m wrong, then I call for a name change:

    The Christian Republic of America

  138. So are the stories of the expense and perceptions wrong?

    I have only one thing to say at this point. One of the folks around here going batsh*t crazy over Michelle “Antoinette” Obama is Gorilla. You know who G’s favorite candidate is? Gingrich.

    Gingrich, who ran up a half million dollar tab at Tiffany’s.
    Gingrich who went on a Greek cruise when he should have been campaigning.
    Gingrich, whose wife Calista has expensive tastes and does not take no for an answer.

    The next time one of you MDS (Michelle Derangement Syndrome) sufferers sings the glory of Gingrich, I will just sit back and laugh at your hypocrisy.

    P.S. This observation posted to G’s blog has gone unanswered. Interesting. 😉

  139. Alex Wagner is a hottie. I’ve got a mute button on my remote. She might have gained a new audience member.

    Now prove she’s not really a conservative. 😆

  140. Gingrich isn’t in office preaching class-warfare and claiming austerity is important given the debt and difficult times. But you don’t need Gorilla to tell you that he’d hold Newt to the same standards if he occupied the WH.

    Sorry R. It matters. Leadership matters.

  141. I don’t care what Michelle Obama, or any woman, spends her own money on. Though I would prefer to put that kind of money towards Alexander McQueen shoes, each to her own.

    As for where I work, I’ve already stated I work in tech.

    No, you work with tech. You’re some graphic artist, or something claiming you work in tech. I doubt you would know how to add a comment to real line of code.

    Undoubtedly, you don’t care if Shelley takes a $4MM dollar vacation on you either. Two Air Force Ones had to make the 5,000 mile trip at the price of $185,000 per hour because the large onion booty couldn’t wait for lame ass husband to finish picking his sphincter watching the world go around and posing as the “ordinary man” for a clearly organized pose. What a couple of tactless phonies these Obamas are.

    The Obamas make the Clintons look classy and honest.

    And people like you and Rutherford are incredibly generous with other people’s money. Government welfare is the lib’s idea of charitable works – as long as “the rich” pay for it.

  142. Sigh, I realize you all are primarily men here, so educating you about designers and fashion will have to fall to me.

    I searched for the supposedly $2000 sundress. It’s by designer Sophie Theallet. Who retails at Saks Fifth Ave. for ~$300 for similar dresses. So, not quite reaching $2K. The $2K price likely came from the couture version shown on the runway which no one buys. Most of the people who wear the couture runway versions are given the clothes as they are in some position to then market the brand (not quite expecting that this audience will have seen The Devil Wears Prada but it’s remarkably true to form on how the fashion industry works). Now giving away couture dresses wouldn’t happen with a political figure (that isn’t Carla Bruni) but still likely deeply discounted since anything Michelle Obama wears will instantly boost the sales of said designer.

    Also the article I did find about the supposedly offensive dress also cited a later day outfit by Comme des Garcons. Which sells at J Crew.

  143. “When you learn to see God in all people, the distinction evaporates.”

    I don’t take credit away from people by ascribing their actions to some god/goddess or devil.

  144. Pure unadulterated bullsh*t. I believe members of the black caucus would say that certain whites don’t understand that this is NOT a white nation. Sadly, many of you either forgot your American history or have signed up for the alternative (false) version being promoted nowadays, and truly believe this is a Christian nation.

    Gawd. 😆 What a clearly lying bastard trying to cover for a bunch of race pimps and ‘pinky’ haters. All of them – to a ‘T’.

    You’re always throwing out there “what’s the matter with Kansas?” I can make a much better historical case, what’s the hell is the matter with blacks – voting for their modern day slave owners? Want to talk about bad history? George McGovern and Bull Connor ring any bells? Both Dimocrats.

    And those you would defend are all chanting something about pinky done stole our ancestor’s identity. Gawd Damn America!!! Theyz white devils been spredding thats HIV in our homes and our childens.

    About 90% of the “black” caucus are crooks and thugs, always with the defense of victim and racism. Alan West is about the only one not under indictment, or investigation, or heading to jail, or hiding public funds in their freezers, when Guam didn’t flip over and Maxine trying to tribalize the oil companies. 😈

    You can kiss my lily white Xtian ass, you little lying sack of shit. 😀

  145. No, you work with tech. You’re some graphic artist, or something claiming you work in tech. I doubt you would know how to add a comment to real line of code.

    Not a coder. Never claimed to be. But yes, I can comment code, read an API, and define designs to business requirements. It’s called Program Management. I’ve already stated what I do. And some pretty cool companies like what I do. Can’t work Photoshop to save my life though. Couldn’t graphic design my way out of a paper bag.

    I don’t care about any President using Air Force One to go on their vacations. Didn’t care when Bush did. Clinton. The first Bush. Reagan. Nor the Obamas. Perk of the job no matter which state you hale from.

    And people like you and Rutherford are incredibly generous with other people’s money. Government welfare is the lib’s idea of charitable works – as long as “the rich” pay for it.

    Yup, I’m pretty generous with my money.

  146. Gingrich isn’t in office preaching class-warfare and claiming austerity is important given the debt and difficult times.

    Yeah, he’s just running on that. To do that.

  147. class-warfare?

    It goes both ways Tigre. Demonizing the rich, demonizing the poor. It’s all class warfare. Just because Newt does the former (poor children should clean the shit of their betters in school?), doesn’t make it any less class warfare. Pitting the classes against each other, that’s class warfare.

    Maybe there should be a little more class warfare in our culture. There’s a minority of people gaming the system from the bottom (with some, but minimal, effect on the society at large) and a minority that’s really gaming the system from the top (that tanked almost everyone’s wealth and prospects). But boy how does the latter keep us at each other’s throats in the meantime.

    But whichever way you slice it, Newt and company are every bit as much waging class warfare as any liberal you claim it of.

  148. Rabbit can’t argue with Gypsy Camp in 180. Makes sense to me.

    I will say this though, Michelle has utterly failed to connect with the middle and working class. She comes off as a complete bitch to most regular joes. I’m not sure she can help it. Some people are just unlikable.

  149. “There’s a minority of people gaming the system from the bottom “(with some, but minimal, effect on the society at large)

    And there we have what I can’t stand about liberals. Black culture completely transforms right in front of our eyes since Johnson and its “minimal”.

    How many black kids were shot tonight?

    How millions of Vicodins were on the street today? All of them paid for by your tax dollar. The ghetto is flooded with government opiates. It’s not being reported in the news, but the opiate problem in this country is beyond fucked up. Crooked docs all over the place. Get 60 “vikes” a month and sell them for $240. Or trade half for other drugs.

  150. GK, you lost me. What are you referring to specifically and why are his or his wife’s spending habits problematic?

    Tigre, which comment of mine are you referring to?

  151. And there we have what I can’t stand about liberals. Black culture completely transforms right in front of our eyes since Johnson and its “minimal”.

    Rabbit, when I said there was a minority of people gaming the system from the bottom, with minimal effect, I was referring to specifically those people who actively game the system and become the demons (i.e. Reagan’s virtually nonexistent Cadillac welfare queens and the children Newt want to clean up the piss of their schoolmates). That there are major systemic issues as a result of poverty? Of course. I was not referring to them. Though I’m not sure why you jumped to “black culture.”

  152. Michelle has utterly failed to connect with the middle and working class. She comes off as a complete bitch to most regular joes.

    And why isn’t that itself a comment on “regular joes?” Healthy eating? Organic gardens? Wearing something not bought in a KMart? Then I’m with Michelle.

  153. All I can say is GypsyKat where have you been all my blogging life? 🙂

    Tigre you’re being deliberately thick. The candidate’s behavior prior to election is the best indicator of his behavior in the Oval Office.

    Gingrich brags about how he makes his money and he does whatever Calista wants. The Greek cruise was not postponed because Calista refused to have it postponed.

    You can be coy with Kat but not with me.

  154. The drug war is a war against us as a society. Some folks are weaker when it comes to certain things and those weaknesses have been well-exploited by the very same people that are declaring war on drugs. Really, its war on drug users and they promote drug use. That’s gaming from the top.

    The government is behind all the drugs we get. No not ALL the government, but there is a global network. It is keeping up the war and we are the casualties. Our neighborhoods and communities are falling apart and plenty of our lower class are imprisoned for drug-related crimes. This costs big bucks and overloads our prisons and bogs our justice system.

    This is well known and documented, but not taught in the public schools. Thank God for the FOIA. Check it out when you can. The MSM won’t get you there, though occasionally they do deal an honest hand. Rare and refreshing, yet almost surreal when they do.

    No not the ENTIRE government. It isn’t all-knowing and cohesive. But it has been made a harness by some evil-assed sons of bitches. We definitely know two things this government can do very well as a whole is spend money and foment war.

  155. All I can say is GypsyKat where have you been all my blogging life?

    Aw … I’m here now aren’t I? 😉

    Tigre you’re being deliberately thick … Gingrich brags about how he makes his money and he does whatever Calista wants.

    Ah, now I think I get Tigre’s reference, but I still don’t understand his question to me (GK, you lost me. What are you referring to specifically and why are his or his wife’s spending habits problematic?. I myself never made a reference to Callista’s spending habits as I don’t think they are relevant. Though I do make sure to pay my Tiffany debts. It’s just a matter of personal integrity and certainly nothing I expect others to emulate. Of course, I don’t have children that I then expect to clean the shit and piss off school floors, so maybe I’m misunderstanding the overall Gingrich Tiffany debt payoff plan.

  156. Well he certainly has the “pass the blame” part down. 🙂

    Algona, Iowa (CNN) – Newt Gingrich cited fraud Wednesday as the reason he didn’t get on the Virginia primary ballot.

    Last week his campaign acknowledged they used paid volunteers to scramble to get the required 10,000 signatures but fell short after the former House speaker and Virginia resident boasted his campaign was submitting as many as 12,000-14,000 signatures.

    On a campaign stop at an Algona chocolate store, the former House speaker said the “mistake” occurred because one of their workers committed fraud.

    “We hired somebody who turned in false signatures. We turned in 11,100 – we needed 10,000 – 1,500 of them were by one guy who frankly committed fraud.”

    The campaign called the Virginia ballot qualification process a “failed system” after they learned that former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney and Texas Rep. Ron Paul were the only candidates that were successful.

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/28/gingrich-campaign-workers-signature-fraud-cost-slot-on-virginia-ballot/?hpt=hp_t2

  157. “Though I’m not sure why you jumped to “black culture.”

    Of course you are not. And that’s exactly what bugs me. Liberal policy, particularly welfare, decimated black culture. But you feign to be baffled on why I would bring up black people. Either that or your using innuendo “to kind of-sort of” imply I’m being racist.

    You know how many times our blog host as ever written about the true plight of the black man? Zilch. And he’s sort of black!

    And I’m not talking about the debate over giving black people special treatment on tests or what not. Many of the “major systemic issues” you associate with poverty, I associate with the welfare state, most importantly, the destruction of the black family structure.

    Do the horrors of your welfare state transcend race? Of course they do. But talk about a case study. Even slavery couldn’t destroy the black family! You did!

    As for “gaming the system”, you do realize that millions are so entitled and ignorant, they don’t even know they are gaming the system. They literally don’t even think about where their hand outs come from.

    And its generational. Passed down from Mom (and usually only Mom) to son, daughter, son, son, daughter and son.

    The reason your urban reservation is a crime against humanity isn’t because of what happened. Your hearts were in the right place.

    Its because you guys are afraid to ask some serious questions to yourselves.

    Thus, the 17 year old gunned down today, slinging crack for minimal wage, fatherless. He won’t enter the discussion tomorrow. Sweep it under the rug and call it poverty. Just poor people shit. They’ve been doing that forever. Keep the Planned Parenthood hamburger machine running. That should be enough.

  158. Rabbit, I’m going to take a guess that you are ranting about something that has previously enjoyed some discussion? Remember, I am new to this forum so if there is back story here I don’t know it in this conversation.

    Even slavery couldn’t destroy the black family!

    Except where it did. Breaking them up. Selling them. Splintering them. What the hell are you talking about? Some glorified version of the American cohesive slave family? And what do you mean by “sort of black” in reference to our host?

    Either that or your using innuendo “to kind of-sort of” imply I’m being racist.

    No, no innuendo. No idea what you were talking about specifically. I tend to focus on the poverty issue. The socioeconomic aspect of poverty that while disproportionately affects minorities transcends race in that all people in poverty experience similar results. I don’t want to sweep it under the rug.

    And what Planned Parenthood hamburger machine are you referring to?

  159. “Except where it did. Breaking them up. Selling them. Splintering them. What the hell are you talking about?”

    Very true.

    But, I’m talking about the survival of the black family structure after slavery. It also survived urbanization. It was welfare that destroyed it. And I hold progressive policy accountable for it.

    My rant like reference to PP was about the disproportionate amount of black babies murdered in the womb. An acceptable fact for many liberals because they are so damn poor anyways. .Or something.

    Rutherford is a light skinned, Caribbean black man. He wasn’t brought up in an African American context. Plus, people probably force fed him into the handicapped box before they did the black box. I’m sure if I’m wrong he lambaste me.

  160. My rant like reference to PP was about the disproportionate amount of black babies murdered in the womb. An acceptable fact for many liberals because they are so damn poor anyways. .Or something.

    I’m an unapologetic pro-choice libertarian. Has nothing to do with being liberal and wanting people to have abortions. But I will support a woman’s reproductive rights. Period. Let the onslaught commence if you will.

  161. I myself never made a reference to Callista’s spending habits as I don’t think they are relevant.

    It’s the double standard I’m trying to destroy, Kat. The Michelle-haters on this blog talk about her living high on the hog on the government payroll. I submit therefore that they should stay far away from Gingrich as a candidate because all indicators are that Calista will make Michelle look downright frugal.

    I agree with you on the basic premise. Folks who spend time worrying about the First Lady’s spending habits clearly aren’t paying attention to things that really matter … like our economy or which Muslim country we’re going to invade next.

  162. Thus, the 17 year old gunned down today, slinging crack for minimal wage

    Now Rabbit I’m no expert on the drug trade but I think you missed the boat there. He’s slinging crack for good money … money he can’t make at McDonalds even if McDonalds was willing to hire him.

  163. Plus, people probably force fed him into the handicapped box before they did the black box.

    LOL, no lambasting on that one Rabbit although I found force fed kinda funny.

    To clarify to Kat, I am way more obviously disabled than I am black. That’s what Rabbit is getting at. And indeed when I encounter people they focus on disability when it comes to making assumptions (particularly negative ones) and are surprised to find out I’m black.

  164. Kat the hardest thing about being pro-choice is folks thinking we LIKE abortions.

    You may have already noticed in this thread a reference to the M&H blog (also known as Fat Grannies among its critics). I got into big trouble over at that blog because I challenged a pro-choice commenter who said she “found herself pregnant”. I am pro-choice myself. But I don’t like excuses and BS language. Folks don’t find themselves pregnant. They get pregnant. To be clear, the woman in question was not raped. When I challenged her verbiage I got cut to pieces. Therefore there is no love loss between me and the M&H crowd.

    I am pro-choice and I understand others being pro-choice but I don’t like it discussed casually. Terminating a pregnancy is one of gravest decisions anyone has to make. I believe pro-choice people should go out of their way to make it clear that they don’t believe they’re just tossing away “tissue” not unlike some scab on their arm.

    Sorry … undeserved lecture over.

  165. ” He’s slinging crack for good money … money he can’t make at McDonalds even if McDonalds was willing to hire him.”

    You can’t be more wrong. The gangs are set up like any other franchise. The dudes selling on the street don’t make shit. Long hours, dangerous working conditions.

  166. “I’m an unapologetic pro-choice….Let the onslaught commence if you will.” Gypsy

    And I find you to be a vile human being. I’m not trying to flame you or be disrespectful. I truly believe that. You support the murder of innocent human beings. I have found that yelling and screaming online with people like you is akin to trying debate a Nazi. Pointless. You probably feel the same way about the pro-choice crowd. The difference is one of us is accused of genocide, and the other isn’t.

    Out of curiosity, have you ever truly researched the subject?

  167. Rutherford, your take on abortion cracks me up.

    Your Pro-choice, you just want everyone to know its murder when they do it. It almost makes you worse then Gypsy.

    You think you can have your moral cake and eat it to. But, you just can’t on this issue, dude.

  168. re:gypsy

    You probably feel the same way about the pro-life crowd. Not pro-choice. Typo on my part.

    For someone so rabidly anti-abortion I will never understand why I switch pro-choice for pro-life so easily. Maybe it’s the positive tone of the word “choice”. Very sneaky….those baby killers. “Choice” for the word “murder”.

  169. Out of curiosity, have you ever truly researched the subject?

    Researched which aspect? The procedure? The reasons for having one? What is it you want me to research?

    My stance is simple and again, libertarian. It’s none of my business. I can’t know all the reasons a woman would choose this. I support legal safe reproductive choices for women.

    And I find you to be a vile human being …You probably feel the same way about the pro-[life] crowd.

    No, I don’t feel that way about you. I understand where your sentiments are coming from, but also understand that what you are trying to accomplish will not happen. Abortion has existed throughout history, legal or illegal. You are not going to stop it. You are not going to stop women doing it illegally and you have a better opportunity to stop it while it is legal through birth control and sex education. It’s your choice whether you want to actually circumscribe it, or just make it illegal which will do nothing to stop it. But the more people like you try to restrict it, the more people like me will ensure that women get to determine their own destinies. Wouldn’t it make more sense to work together to reduce it?

  170. Rutherford, … a pregnancy is one of gravest decisions anyone has to make.

    Absolutely true, and still none of my business as I cannot know all the situations and reasons that go into terminating or having a child.

  171. “Tigre, which comment of mine are you referring to?”

    No. 188.

    “Demonizing the rich, demonizing the poor. It’s all class warfare. Just because Newt does the former (poor children should clean the shit of their betters in school?), doesn’t make it any less class warfare. Pitting the classes against each other, that’s class warfare.”

    R, never answers the question despite accusing me of being coy. In fact, he merely repeats the premise.

    Again, what class-warfare and whose money?

    If the cost of Gingrich’s spending is born by them and Newt attacks the poor (according to you), where’s the inconsistency?

    R of course doesn’t get the difference in the office, positions and foots the bill. He’s playing coy.

  172. “I myself never made a reference to Callista’s spending habits as I don’t think they are relevant.”

    Since that was the topic, I thought you were addressing it.

  173. “I’m an unapologetic pro-choice….Let the onslaught commence if you will.” Gypsy

    ‘And I find you to be a vile human being. I’m not trying to flame you or be disrespectful. I truly believe that. You support the murder of innocent human beings. I have found that yelling and screaming online with people like you is akin to trying debate a Nazi. Pointless. You probably feel the same way about the pro-choice crowd. The difference is one of us is accused of genocide, and the other isn’t.’

    Thank you so much. You have perfectly illustrated the rigid, knee-jerk, unthinking, hyper-simplistic FetusPeople mindset that makes any kind of discussion with them pointless. That rigidity is why the Supreme Court had to settle this issue.

    ‘Out of curiosity, have you ever truly researched the subject?’

    From the perspective of someone who has had two five-hour embryology classes and has participated in dozens of therapeutic abortions, if you have an irony allergy, you’re a dead man. Your simplistic, ignorant one-liners about “murder(ing) of innocent human beings” remind me of an old man I once knew who said someone had “explained computers” to him. We bow to your superior knowledge, O Great Researcher. Carry on.

  174. Tex –

    “Then answer my question of how or the why evolution explains the construction of the error checking routine of DNA replication. Or explain the need for a cell cycle. Or explain how cell signaling came about. Or explain how RNA derived from DNA, but lost it’s own error checking routine in the process. Should be a simple task to at least hypothesis for the evolutionary scientist. Venture a guess….” ad infinitum…

    Science doesn’t guess.

    Every time we go the same round; I straighten you out and you go back to exactly the same arguments as if nobody said a thing, just ignoring what you don’t want to hear. One more time:

    Science sits on a giant bedrock of the unknown, chipping away at it one piece at a time, which means there are always and forever things it cannot explain. But it continues to chip away, making sure that each chip is carefully examined and filed away, so that science can build on that knowledge in the future. It is very easy for Luddites to point a some arcane data point and say, “See, they don’t know THAT! Gotcha!

    Actually, no, you don’t. You just pointed out the central process of science – investigation of the unknown. Thanks. Appreciate it.

    Religion OTOH, simply says, “Well, we don’t know how that works, so it’s … it’s…it’s…WELL, IT’S MAGIC! THAT’S WHAT IT IS, MAGIC! If it’s all the same to you, I’ll pass on that explanation, thankyouverymuch.

    ************

    re: the cost of the Chartres cathedral, versus cost of a U2 concert. Apples and oranges. Chartres would translate to about $300M in today’s currency, about $35,000/person. I know U2 provides a lot of entertainment, but 35K/ticket seems a bit steep to me.

    Opportunity cost? Well, at a very conservative 5%, in thirty years your 35k would turn into about 1.5 million bucks. At 11% (historical average for US stock market) — about 9.5 mil. You keep your church; I’ll keep my money. (HT to my old HP12C)

  175. “Your simplistic, ignorant one-liners about “murder(ing) of innocent human beings”

    Lets start with Gianna Jessen and take it backwards. Is she a simplistic one liner?

    Cut and paste by the Rabbit:

    18 Weeks after Fertilization :

    The portion of the brain responsible for functions such as reasoning and memory (the cerebral cortex) has the same number of nerve cells as a full-grown adult.

    12 Weeks after Fertilization :

    Electrical signals from the nervous system are measurable. After an abortion, efforts to suckle will sometimes be observed

    7 Weeks after Fertilization:

    Muscles and nerves begin working together. When the upper lip is tickled, the arms move backwards. The portion of the brain associated with consciousness (the cerebrum) has divided into hemispheres.

    So yeah, I expect pfessor to first appeal to his own authority. He will then point a few things out in which a baby in the womb is different from a baby out of the womb at different times during the pregnancy. And then he will either appeal to his own authority again or remind us all how much of a bad ass coal miner he is. Maybe he will brag about going behind his own brothers back and making abortion his own business. Wash and repeat.

  176. “Lets start with Gianna Jessen and take it backwards. Is she a simplistic one liner? ”

    Why start with a failed 2nd term abortion example when the overwhelming number of abortions are in the 1st term?

  177. Because if we can first agree abortion is an abomination in at least at one given point in a pregnancy we can drop the whole “its none of my business” stuff. And if we agree its wrong at one currently legal point in time, we must give the baby in the womb the benefit of the doubt in others, don’t you think? Doesn’t it also bring a cloud of suspicion over abortion as a whole? Motherfuckers are surviving abortions and running marathons?

    We’re having a debate about who is a human being. Seems to me the burden of proof resides with those who choose death.

  178. You are using development as a basis for your argument, and then using an example that maximizes that development, even though I don’t think there is a single person here who has spoken in favor of 2nd and 3rd term (AKA late-term) abortions.

    You are also using failed abortions as a basis for your argument, but your example uses a method that is pretty much obsolete…for all we know because it was prone to failure.

    We are getting 2 straw men for the price of 1.

  179. No, I’m creating a starting point. Most people do have a line in the sand, the very thing pfessor lambasted me for. Its just a matter of degree.

    In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.

    I want to know why. That’s more then could fit in the Big House when the buckeyes come into town.

    Considering there were probably around a million and a half abortions that year, that doesn’t concern you?

    Where’s your line in the sand, hucking? I simply used Gianna Jessen to point out we all at least need one.

    When people blatantly address the issue as “none of my business” maybe strawmen are needed?

  180. Maaan. I just bailed from this bus to nowhere in a cul-de-sac over at fat grannies. This is not an open debate. Fix the fucking shit you can and leave other people’s lives alone.

    God damn the pusher man!

    There must be a cosmic cloud of chaos. Dust, dust, dust…

    The banksters are taking your eyes off their con. Sealing the deal while we fight among ourselves. They are laughing all the way to the bank Valhalla.

  181. Poolman, you buying silver? Take your tin foil hat off and make it silver.

    Fight the Keynesian assholes with PM’s. Big government actually does a pretty nice job with Greco-Roman art. Much better then being God of the economy. It looks so fucking pristine in .999 silver and gold.

    I just bought more 40 maple leafs at 27 spot with a one buck premium. I’m hoping it goes down to 15 this year.

    I also bought a roll of ’58 Franklin’s (although I think I paid a lttle too much for them). Also snagged a Singapore Tiger 1/10th gold.

    Just don’t make Gollum like noises at your bi-monthly visits to your safety deposit box.

  182. Sorry I didn’t pipe in today. Busy day.

    Rabbit, I know I frustrate you with my abortion stance. I just have the damnedest time getting past the fact that mother and child share the same damn physical space for nine months and to tell one of them that they do not have sovereignty over their own body is a step too far for me. Yet, late term abortions disgust me.

    You say I’m worse than Kat. Hey, I’m conflicted. I’ve always said so. I truly wish I COULD have your clarity on the subject. It would make things easier. And understand, I come to my conclusions (i.e. leaving this up to the woman, her family, her doctor and her spiritual advisers) knowing full well that babies who looked the way I looked on day one are prime targets for abortion.

    I’m sorry dude … it’s complicated sh*t.

    P.S. I know NOTHING about gang bangers so I’ll gladly bow to your testimony on the wage earning potential of the average dealer.

  183. “12 Weeks after Fertilization :

    Electrical signals from the nervous system are measurable. After an abortion, efforts to suckle will sometimes be observed” – DR

    For anyone with a heart, that is affecting.

  184. “When you learn to see God in all people, the distinction evaporates.”

    I don’t take credit away from people by ascribing their actions to some god/goddess or devil. -Kat

    There is no cosmic balance sheet of deeds. Where you see causation, I see inspiration. IMO, we are God’s voice, not His toolbelt.

  185. Raji, that’s funny. Just like Groundhog Day!

    I don’t hold out a lot of hope for a revival of that community. The hosts don’t post often enough to keep the idiots at bay and a few squatters give it that old dreaded grade school cafeteria experience.

    It’s showcased some interesting characters and plenty of aliases for Tex. Like “Moonbattery on Display” and “Abortion Rocks!!!” 😆

  186. Happy New Year all! Stay safe.

    I’m happy to let this year end and embrace a new one that promises to be veeerry interesting and potentially prophetic. 😎

  187. “I just have the damnedest time getting past the fact that mother and child share the same damn physical space for nine months and to tell one of them that they do not have sovereignty over their own body is a step too far for me. “-R

    Rutherford, I don’t believe you. I can’t prove it. But you sound more academic and dry every time you defend abortion. I think you just can’t leave the team on this issue. You can’t do it because politics defines you so much.

    Life isn’t fair. I don’t dismiss the sacrifice women make. I watched my wife in agony for 40 hours of labor. Women are the unsung heroes of history, the true warriors. Hell, in a weird way, its too bad the cults of fertility have disappeared from the monotheistic world. Women shouldn’t be worshiped for what they go through, but damn close.

  188. Tigre,

    Dude. I want to hear more about your prediction. Have you snatched a few shares of this?

    http://www.proshares.com/funds/zsl.html?gclid=CJ3Nucn9rK0CFUHRKgodI025mQ

    A few Put contracts?

    Give us a time frame and go on a limb for funzies and declare a bottom.

    You can’t just call a shot and then leave us with Nostradamus ambiguity!

    I’ve liquidated my Etrade account. I need to build it up again but I’ve found that my 2011 bravado is missing. I’m not a trapped rabid rabbit in the corner anymore, I guess. I’m going to try to build a more conservative, dividend paying portfolio this year.

    I have a pussy little 3% returning annuity that I regret. Tax deferred, yes, but if you think about it, the entire fund could go under easier then say a solid electric company or McDonald’s.

    Do your predictions have anything to with the Silver ETF?

  189. But you sound more academic and dry every time you defend abortion.

    I’m not sure a “defense” of abortion can be made without being academic and dry. The alternative winds up using asinine phrases like “I found myself pregnant” or disgusting turns of speech like calling the aborted fetus a “bastard” that wasn’t wanted in the family as one of our board mates put it several months ago to my absolute horror.

    You can call it political but I’ve seen too many women argue about the inherent condescension involved in MEN legislating the womb for me to totally ignore the argument.

    The best “solution” I can think of is viability. First trimester abortions which comprise the majority involve few viability issues. After that, it seems reasonable for prohibitions to be in place except in the case of the mother’s health (i.e. possible death). That’s about the best I can do at this point and even that flies in the face of the sovereignty argument I made earlier.

  190. LOL I just took a dip into the archives and found in the same post:

    Dead Rabbit posting as Rodent Bastard
    Tex agreeing with Obama
    and 100’s of comments by Elric 😦

    Ahhhh the good old days!

  191. Rabbit, my rationale is simple really.

    The Chinese real estate bubble will burst soon, arm in arm with Europe’s shit-tanker. Chinese exports will go down depressing demand for industrial metals. China will not be in a position to reinflate the bubble. The US dollar will stabalize.

    So, no it’s not the funds or paper silver investment.

    Time frame and bottom? Let me think on it. But for a dart, $20 in 3 months.

  192. Just ran across this and thought I would share

    Neil Gaiman’s Journal: My New Year Wish

    “I hope that in this year to come, you make mistakes.

    Because if you are making mistakes, then you are making new things, trying new things, learning, living, pushing yourself, changing yourself, changing your world. You’re doing things you’ve never done before, and more importantly, you’re Doing Something.

    So that’s my wish for you, and all of us, and my wish for myself. Make New Mistakes. Make glorious, amazing mistakes. Make mistakes nobody’s ever made before. Don’t freeze, don’t stop, don’t worry that it isn’t good enough, or it isn’t perfect, whatever it is: art, or love, or work or family or life.

    Whatever it is you’re scared of doing, Do it.

    Make your mistakes, next year and forever.”

    http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2011/12/my-new-year-wish.html

  193. Tigre, when that bubble busts I will imagine all kinds of commodities are going to take a nice hit. I bet silver hits 15.

    What I wonder is if it would cause some sort national banking crisis for the Chinks, forcing them to throw US debt onto the market, causing interests rates to ……oh my God….it would be the Apocalypse! 🙂

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