American Protest and Hypocrisy

Flashback to early 2009. Barack Obama had barely finished the Presidential oath of office before folks started gathering in the public square with teabags hanging from their hats. They were fed up and angry. Among their gripes: over-taxation, bailouts being given to banks and auto companies, and later, the “unauthorized takeover” of health care by the federal government. The Fed was becoming too powerful and these folks who embodied the fledgling Tea Party movement wanted to go back to the fundamentals of the Founding Fathers.

As liberals looked on, a few red flags arose. First, the movement seemed triggered by the election of Barack Obama. At least two major gripes of the movement (exploding deficit and TARP) occurred during the Bush administration but where were they then? Second, there seemed to be precious few people of color at the Tea Party rallies. Third, some of the signs carried at these rallies were outright offensive to anyone of even somewhat thick skin (a sign calling Obama a “lyin’ African”, another with Obama with a bone through his nose like a witch-doctor.) Fourth, for reasons never adequately explained some folks chose to bring their guns to the rallies. Those that didn’t, carried signs saying “We came unarmed …. this time.” Last but not least, before you could say “Patrick Henry”, several powerful players, from Fox News to Dick Armey’s FreedomWorks had attached themselves to the movement.

These factors led many liberals, including me, to declare the Tea Party destructive, dangerous and racist. Sometimes the shoe needs to be on the other foot to realize how wrong you are. I was wrong. Were all the factors I just listed manufactured? Absolutely not. Were they troubling? Damn right they were. But at the core of the Tea Party was something that every American should cherish: freedom of speech and the right of the citizenry to assemble and air their grievances. The great preponderance of Tea Party activists wanted to save a country clearly in trouble. The fact that powerful forces attempted to co-opt the movement was not the fault of the Tea Party members. In fact, when Michele Bachmann kick-started her Tea Party caucus in the House of Representatives, I distinctly remember some TPM members pushing back lest folks start to think Bachmann was “leading the cause”.

Fast forward to Autumn, 2011. A bunch of mostly young folks stage a sit-in of sorts. They camp out in downtown Manhattan and name their gathering “Occupy Wall Street”. Like the Tea Party protesters before them, they are angry that bankers got bailed out and then got huge bonuses, continuing the abuses that precipitated the bailouts. Unlike the Tea Party, they are presently more angry at the bankers who went unpunished, than at the government that bailed them out and let them off the hook. Even so, the OWS crowd recognizes that government has not helped.

Both the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street are fighting a class struggle. The Tea Party’s attitude, best enunciated in the now  famous rant by CNBC’s Rick Santelli, is that irresponsible Americans were looking for assistance at the hard-working middle class’s expense. OWS, on the other hand contends that it is inherently unfair that 1% of Americans control most of the country’s wealth while the remaining 99% struggle to keep their jobs and homes.

What do we see now from conservatives? We see the same reaction that I had back in 2009. The OWS crowd are unkempt, lazy communists and anarchists. They need to get a job. They only want to destroy. They have no focus. They are, according to Eric Cantor, a House Representative from Virginia, a mob. One of my fellow WordPress bloggers, Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere posted the most offensive photo he could find of an OWS protester getting ready to defecate on a police car. Reminded me of every liberal who posted pictures of every offensive Tea Party sign we could get our hands on.

As I read the conservative criticisms of Occupy Wall Street (which has spread to Occupy Boston, Occupy Atlanta, Occupy D.C.) I’m angered and ultimately saddened by the myopic view of the critics. But then I consider how I might have no one to blame but myself. It was much easier for me to impugn the motives of the Tea Party than to consider that some, if not most of them, were exercising the time-honored American tradition of protest to right perceived wrongs.

Perhaps I’m letting myself off the hook but I think I suffer from a disease common to most Americans. Those protesters whose message resonates with us are patriots and heroes. Those with whom we don’t empathize are traitors, bigots and criminals. We give lip service to freedom of speech and making our voices heard when our government ignores us. But as soon as a group of people actually exercise this prerogative in the public square, we condemn them if it looks like they’re going to upset our world order.

The simple truth is that the Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street crowd share a fundamental common complaint. They are both fed up with a society that ignores their voice and is headed in a direction that will only make matters worse for them. Those who insist that the OWS movement is a front to reelect Barack Obama just don’t get it. They’re not happy with Obama either. They’re not happy with our government. They choose to take their fight to the site that most symbolizes the problem, a corporate environment run amok and in control of our government. Just because they are occupying Wall Street doesn’t mean they don’t want governmental change. The notion that marching in front of the Federal Reserve building is a prerequisite to expressing their dissatisfaction is ridiculous.

The Tea Party’s voice eventually was heard as evidenced by the number of Congressmen and Senators carrying their torch (albeit somewhat disingenuously since they still have big business and big money in their pocket). The OWS movement is in its infancy. If it lasts and matures, it will not manifest itself in the overthrow of our government (as some on the right fear) but will result in legislators who carry their torch.

If we could get past the hypocrisy at the core of the American psyche, we would see that we all ultimately want the same thing. We want a government that promotes equal opportunity for all in an environment where folks are encouraged to play fair and not rewarded for taking advantage. One notable thing about the OWS movement has been its inclusiveness, almost to a fault. Yes, there are anarchists. There are socialists. There are also plain old vanilla liberals. No doubt a smattering of moderates. What I’d really like to see now is a couple of Tea Party Patriots join the crowd and see what they have in common.

We can’t change our lot if we don’t let others speak and we don’t listen to their concerns. The OWS movement should be a wake up call to every liberal who dismissed the Tea Party out of hand. In the words of Lincoln, a house divided against itself cannot stand. Now is the time for us to unite, raise our voices and be heard so that our country can change course and avoid what appears in our darkest days to be an inevitable decline.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

Photo credit: Photo via Wikipedia

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363 thoughts on “American Protest and Hypocrisy

  1. R, you suck. The hypocrisy you screamed about was directed at us who are not even tea party members. Now it’s you that was the hypocrite? Of course it was. Where did all of that original outrage come from? MSNBC? Is this a confessional?

    I think OWS is stupid. It’s just an anti-capitalism movement at best. I don’t have to agree with its objectives or their tactics. They should try petitioning the government.

    I have always marveled at what you hitch your horse to. You’ve not let me down this time.

    Protesting business for not giving up the goodies is mighty silly. Why won’t you discuss that aspect? All you’ve talked about are the images. I don’t see anything other than a bunch of whiny, unemployed bitches without a serious agenda. And it’s my right to respond to that without being labeled a racist, agreed?

  2. Very good Tigre. I love it.

    ———

    I think this comparison of the Tea Party vis-a-vis OWS is so disingenuous, that it is intellectually insulting asking me to believe they are mirror images. The only thing I can see that the two have in common, besides freedom of expression, is frustration with government and a shared disdain of bank bailouts.

    However, as even a liberal like Rutherford has proven time and again, the Tea Party had a very narrow and specific set of goals and complaints: (1) the trillion dollar stimulus; (2) the bank and manufacturing bailouts; (3) concern of the escalating national debt; (4) Obamacare; (5) Lowering taxes. You could have walked the crowd and gotten the same basic answers of why they were there. No doubt, it was accompanied by a dislike of Obama’s policies and all groups have their fringe elements. But the message of the end game was clear – more fiscal sanity and a push to elect candidates willing to push for massive spending cuts without raising taxes = smaller, less intrusive government.

    I have not been convinced that this OWS is much more than the mob demanding a bigger share of pie for themselves and absolutely no idea how to get there, besides asking government to play big brother and coerce. I believe it’s also based a lot more on the thrill of social networking – I am not teasing when I say OWS has become the end thing to do for thousands of purposeless underachievers, some of the problem beyond their control but much more self made, now being corralled by union goons, anarchists and professional protestors. They desperately want this to become this generation’s Woodstock.

    Tea Parties didn’t camp out in the parks, and crap in the grass and sidewalks, live in filth, or cause destruction. Whether you were for or against, they always left the place as clean as when they gathered and then went home. It was orderly and not physically violent. They weren’t blocking bridges or participating in mass arrests.

    If the OWS purpose is to position themselves as the alternative to the Tea Party demands, they have failed miserably. There is no clear or consistent message besides hate the rich and a demand for some nebulous, ill defined justice. And I predict somewhere down the line, this will turn ugly for the Dimocratic Party.

    Like Obama “R”, be careful what you wish for.

  3. R, needs to go on a field trip and see for himself what the OWS is about before trying to make a comparison. I have watched. It’s a belly-laugh. Hundreds of bearded, spit covered, sallow-faced anemic looking, group think, collectivist liberal pussies. Homogeneous zombies. You can’t tell one from the next.

    As someone said on TV this morning, the left has always been jealous of the tea party’s (in terms of its ability to form a base of support and ultimate political effectiveness). That’s sounds like a reasonable explanation for the Rutherfords.

    However, we all know this orchestrated. And as always, R will play along.

  4. Good find Gorilla on the video above. Like I said, it is insulting to try and masquerade as some grassroots gathering.

  5. D A B O O T Y! 😈

    “Well, I did a show with Michelle and I just loved being with her,” Deen told Yeas & Nays. “She probably ate more than any other guest I’ve ever had on the show —she kept eating even during commercials.” Deen taught Obama how to fry shrimp during a TV segment in September before the 2008 presidential election. [WTH? She doesn’t know how to fry shrimp? 😆 ] “You know what their favorite foods are — it’s hot wings, you know, those kinds of foods that are not necessarily top-of-the-list healthy foods, so she’s no different than the rest of us,” Deen said.

    http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/yeas-nays/2011/10/paula-dean-michelle-obama-likes-fried-food-too#ixzz1aUHCkV20

  6. It’s good that Hannity has a TV show so he can spend at least one hour per day with his head removed from his ass. After Fox’s near sponsorship of the Tea Party movement, Hannity has the nerve to criticize OWS.

    As for Ann Coulter …. she hates liberals so she is basically just entertainment. Nothing more.

  7. You can’t tell one from the next.

    Tigre, I thought the very same thing of the Tea Party folks.

    LOL this thread is going to be a laugh sensation as you boys continue your myopic bullsh*t.

    And the best meme you folks can repeat over and over is “conservatives clean up after themselves and liberals don’t”. LOL politics according to Felix Unger. 😆

  8. And the best meme you folks can repeat over and over is “conservatives clean up after themselves and liberals don’t”. LOL politics according to Felix Unger.

    See how easy Rutherford dismisses even the basics of human decency? The depravity of this mob and its cheer leaders like Rutherford is startling. They’re filthy, disgusting, and incoherent. And yet, Rutherford wants us to believe they are the party of (1) Mother Earth and ecology; (2) social justice; (3) goodness and light.

    Even animals don’t dirty their own dens. My dog has more sense than this grit. These are the imbeciles that shit their own bed and demand we sleep with them? 😆 Thanks, but no thanks. I want a million miles between us.

    I say retreat and let the Bubonic Plague begin right there on Wall Street. We’ll Wall St. them off and let nature take its due course.

  9. @ 1, Excellent Ratigan video Poolman. Did you watch the Strategy Session interview of Asher Edelman that popped up next? Kind of blasts the theory of the unwashed masses being floated on Tex TV. These guys are all capitalists, and though the guy in the booth is clearly irritated, his partner on the street seems surprised, even energized by the fact that the protesters seem intelligent and informed.
    FTR, I never ridiculed the Tea Baggers for protesting. I love making fun of their stupid name, their stupid candidates (I am not a witch), and their stupid arguments, (Get your gov’t hands off my medicare), but I’ve always supported their right to assemble. Some righties, mostly on the Supreme Court, think free speech means a sealed envelope under the chair at a fundraiser.The rest of us know free speech looks and sounds a lot like what’s going on in the streets of New York and elsewhere.

    Hey I wonder why Demint and his minions aren’t getting the Tea Party to set up camp across the street. Could it be that the more their group saw with its own eyes what’s really being protested, corporate government, they might just cross the street and join OWS. Job creators vs. Mob creators. Cantor is probably already pissing his pants. See Tex, even the Majority leader has something in common with OWS. 🙂

  10. Well then Thorazine, you won’t mind that I think as highly of he OWS crowd. No one here said they didn’t have right to assemble. We mock them because they are ass-clowns. R, calls that hypocrisy. I call it a right to have a thought.

    There is a difference though. The douchebags on the left that wanted to accuse tea partiers of racism and hate speech, a bandwagon R freely jumped on, in order to shut down the protests or quiet the speech.

    You really should see these “protests” in person. As one of my most liberal friends said, “wow — completely underwhelming — I can’t believe this getting any press.” Of course I can. It helps the MSNBC types feel relevant since their messiah proved himself a charlatan.

  11. “There is a difference though. The douchebags on the left that wanted to accuse tea partiers of racism and hate speech, a bandwagon R freely jumped on, in order to shut down the protests or quiet the speech.” – ET

    This all went down before I infected this forum, so I’ll stay out of that part. But I will say, If R’s intent was to shut them down, then he was clearly wrong. But if all he did was mock them, then he had every right.

    And I did see one of the demonstrations in Seattle. You might have missed it, but I spoke to it in a past thread. Which one did you attend? New York? I hear they are marching up West Central Park today. Handing out big bogus checks to some of the job creators. For some reason they aren’t stopping at Bloomberg’s place. I wonder if they’ll visit Woody Allen?

  12. Atlanta.

    Thorazine, what are they protesting. All I see is a variation on “the rich people shouldn’t be so rich, they should share it with me so.” R, talks of virtue when jealousy and class envy are at the heart of it.

    The real reason that these people are protesting evil corporations is because they are unwilling to blame the man they elected. Ironically, the man they elected to bring hope and change has made them feel totally hopeless. And yet they will vote for him again.

    Could you imagine what the protests would look like if Bush were still president?

    As one of my law partners said, “what’s the point? these look like the 2003 protests following our decision to invade Iraq. The protests ain’t gonna change a God damned thing because they can’t.”

    So the collectivists versus the individualists clash. Yawn.

  13. “If R’s intent was to shut them down, then he was clearly wrong. But if all he did was mock them, then he had every right.”

    Ummmm. Yes to both. It should make you wonder what the point of this post is and Rutherford’s vociferous accusations of hypocrisy were all about. .

  14. It’s good that Hannity has a TV show so he can spend at least one hour per day with his head removed from his ass. After Fox’s near sponsorship of the Tea Party movement, Hannity has the nerve to criticize OWS.

    You’re absolutely right.

    After all, he’s only actually spent hours talking to the paticipants in both groups. (Yes, he’s been interviewing OWS participants on his radio show for about three weeks now…undisciplined, unfocused, and only too willing to ignore the stupidity in demonstrating against Wall Street over things that the government did or facilitated. But I’m sure your window on the world, MNDNC is giving you all the information that you need to know.

  15. “Hannity has the nerve to criticize OWS.”

    R, helloooooo. . . . Why isn’t Hannity allowed to criticize the OWS?

  16. Like the Tea Party protesters before them, they are angry that bankers got bailed out and then got huge bonuses, continuing the abuses that precipitated the bailouts.

    You mean the banks who were FORCED to take the bailout money, despite being healthy and who paid it back as quickly as they could, or are you just talking about the ones who were in trouble. And while we’re at it, maybe you could prove that you aren’t just talking out of your ass and detail those “abuses” that the banks are still engaging in? In the very slim chance that you can actually name a few, go the extra mile and tell us who, if anyone could have put a stop to those abuses, and why the sippycup bangers aren’t protesting them.

    Unlike the Tea Party, they are presently more angry at the bankers who went unpunished, than at the government that bailed them out and let them off the hook. Even so, the OWS crowd recognizes that government has not helped.

    I don’t think they realize any such thing. But on the other hand, the cannon fodder portion of them don’t seem to be too terribly astute about much at all beyond chanting with marxists grannies, givng civil rights figures the finger, fucking in public, shitting on flags and cop cars, and telling the world about how much they hate corporations on their i-phones and macbooks. Then there are the professional malcontents, who have no problem circumventing the government, because as long as it exists, they will never convince a majority of Americans that their way is better.

  17. And I did see one of the demonstrations in Seattle. You might have missed it, but I spoke to it in a past thread.

    “Occupy Westlake”…sound and fury desperately seeking a clue.

    And some of the “Occupy Tacoma” people are real sweeties, making it clear that by “occupy” they mean “Fuck Them”.

  18. Oh, and to add to #31…for the ones who HAVE paid back the bailout money…with interest, what the hell business is it of yours if their executives got a bonus regardless of the size? Are you a shareholder? Because if you aren’t I think your right to denounce it as some unpardonable sin is …uh…wellllll…ZERO.

    And if the bonuses were pursuant to contract, are you seriously advocating that the banks AVOID those contracts? If you are, I’m going to suggest that you reconsider, because if contract law is no longer observed in this country, then arbitrary and caprecious will rule the roost, and you’re not much more than a bug to be squashed under someone else’s boot, my friend.

    BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

  19. “And if the bonuses were pursuant to contract, are you seriously advocating that the banks AVOID those contracts?”

    Ha ha. You would think somewhere in the bonus contract there would be a clause that says if you completely run the bank into the fucking ground to such a point that the very existence of said bank is contingent on rescue money from the tax payer, you don’t get a bonus. High expectations, I know.

    Or maybe they do deserve the bonuses. I can see the conversation right now. “Harry, you old dog! You called it my man. The government never did let us actually lose those bets we made on the immigrant strawberry picker’s million dollar loan. I guess it was Triple AAA! after all!!!!!!!!

    “Troubled Asset Relief Program” Errrr……..Cough!

    That law was just a piece of legislation nobody followed. The banks were just given money to make money with. The government never followed its own legislation and never bought the toxic poop they said they would as per their own damn law. The sky was falling! Rule of law? Fuck that! Troubled assets are complicated shit, after all.

    Yeah, the greedy plebs were guilty too. I’m not with OSW bleating like sheep for government hand outs. But damn, I get pretty sick of the “blame the greedy plebs argument”.

    Economic Reality #435

    Cut interest rates so low that the everybody and their brother has an incentive to take on debt (simply compare your rate to inflation), and many motherfuckers will take on debt!!!!!!!!

    Economic Reality #436

    If easy money can buy real life tangible brick and mortar shit, the price of real life tangible brick and mortar shit will go up. Since tangible brick and mortar shit is in limited supply, people will freak out about about being priced out of tangible brick and mortar shit. They will make a mad dash to the money store.

    Economic Reality #437

    Walk in the ghetto with money in your hands and loan it to people, you will get all kinds of pay back promises from the hood rats. I don’t care what decade of American history your in.

    So all of sudden, some time in the year 2002, all lending institutions miraculously lost any semblance of street smarts?

    You get rats out of your home. You don’t lecture the rats on why you find them un-fucking-sanitary.

    Conclusion: The moral hazard of picking and choosing winners was deplorable. The losers deserve to be pissed off. Really pissed off.

    Since TARP, there have many other creative, less transparent ways of protecting the oligarchs.

    Obama’s buddies, the bankers….they all drink at the same happy hour together. Literally.

    My friends and family are sitting in homes that have lost up to 75% of their value. They have lost their jobs as a direct result of the bankers’ insane scam. And TARP only propped these bankers up as their overlords, as it destroyed any real incentive to come to reasonable terms.

    Hell, even the Making Homes Affordable Act, in which tax money was specifically allocated to banks to lower payments was a complete and utter fraud. (Not that tax money should have gone to this program in the first damn place). I can’t wait until BAC loses the current class action lawsuit (one of many) on this one .

  20. ““Occupy Westlake”…sound and fury desperately seeking a clue.”

    That was the point of my comment on that thread. Someone had said they thought the protests were being organized by unions or something. I just pointed out what I saw and it didn’t appear to be organized by anyone.

  21. You would think somewhere in the bonus contract there would be a clause that says if you completely run the bank into the fucking ground to such a point that the very existence of said bank is contingent on rescue money from the tax payer, you don’t get a bonus. High expectations, I know.

    Or, it just might be that those banks were the ones FORCED to take the loans, and didn’t really need to…or maybe if they did need to, they still managed to turn things around and pay them back. In the real world, turning a failure around is generally considered a success…

    And in the case of Bank of America, it might be that the execs who cratered it are no longer there. But I realize that its just easier to hate them all than it is to actually educate yourself on who the bad guys really are, so maybe you should just keep hating them all.

  22. So all of sudden, some time in the year 2002, all lending institutions miraculously lost any semblance of street smarts?

    Or community organizations like ACORN step up their game in using the Community Reinvestment Act as a club, threatening big expensive lawsuits if the banks didn’t set aside money for home loans to people who were lousy lending risks…and in that climate, when Fannie and Freddie would back anything and slice and dice up the loans in the resale market, the risk to reward becomes easy math.

  23. That was the point of my comment on that thread. Someone had said they thought the protests were being organized by unions or something. I just pointed out what I saw and it didn’t appear to be organized by anyone.

    Yeah, but Seattle Hippies are different from other hippies. They don’t really do “rage” or “focus” very well. Its why we had all the guest malcontents in town for the WTO years ago.

  24. Dude, come on. ACORN made them do it?

    Lol. Why didn’t they short the bonds? They are investment bad asses.

    Let’s say I agree with you that ACORN was pushing around the Big Banks.

    Don’t you think they would have big smirks on their faces as they shorted the shit out of the market?

  25. “But I realize that its just easier to hate them all than it is to actually educate yourself on who the bad guys really are, so maybe you should just keep hating them all.”-BiC

    hey….lets play banker pong. You serve me a righteous big banker and I will serve you a bastard who crashed the market and got rewarded for it.

    Who’s serve?

  26. The most basic analysis could have shown how fucked up the tranches were.

    And yet Bwarney Fucking Fwanks sat there in the House, year in and year out, insisting as loudly as he could that there was no need for greater oversight, that Fannie and Freddie were as sound as could be, and that the taxpayers weren’t the ones ultimately on the hook if they were to fail, and that anyone who said otherwise was a damn liar.

    Seriously, focusing your rage on the banks for the shit that Congress bent over backwards to ignore is like blaming a five year old for chosing cookies for dinner.

  27. “hey….lets play banker pong. You serve me a righteous big banker and I will serve you a bastard who crashed the market and got rewarded for it.” DR

    It’s not just banks, HP just fired Apotheker after 11 months. They’ve been having a fire sale on subs and the stock has tanked 40% during his tenure. His punishment … $35 million. This after shareholders sued HP over the parachutes for their last two failed CEO’s. That’s the type of arrogance that’s driving people into the street.

  28. By the way, by all means, if you think I’m arguing that government intrusion isn’t a main catalyst of the housing melt down, you are chatting with the wrong bloke. Big time.

    That being said, there aint no excuse for throwing billions of dollars on the securitization of Community Reinvestment Act loans.

    Banks that did this were either so utterly stupid they should be fucking extinct or they knowingly did this under the presumption that the government will have their back while everyone else gets screwed 1929 style.

  29. “This after shareholders sued HP over the parachutes for their last two failed CEO’s”

    Shareholders should sell the fucking stock. The Free Market can handle that kind of shit.

  30. Yeah, but Seattle Hippies are different from other hippies.

    Yeah, they are accustomed to standing in the rain. They could be the last Occupy standing … them or Occupy Oahu. 🙂

  31. This after shareholders sued HP over the parachutes for their last two failed CEO’s.

    You mean the people who actually had a right to be pissed reacted? Quelle Horror! Don’t tell Rutherford.

    BTW, if the shareholder blocks can’t get their shit together and pitch those directors out on their ears, then Rabbit’s right. Sell the fucking stock and invest in a company not run by dumbasses.

  32. “Seriously, focusing your rage on the banks for the shit that Congress bent over backwards to ignore is like blaming a five year old for chosing cookies for dinner.”

    Who ever said I was focusing my rage?

    I have plenty of it to go around.

  33. seriously, I’m not even capable of discussing Barny Frank on the internet for fear I will say something that gets me in trouble.

    You mean like that guy who was one of Fannie and Freddie’s overseers when his boy toy worked for them?

    Bring it. He’s one of the people who truely deserves a good tar and feathering. 😈
    ——————————————————————-

    Yeah, they are accustomed to standing in the rain. They could be the last Occupy standing … them or Occupy Oahu.

    Ten years of living here, and I still am amazed at how people bitch about the weather.

    Everyone complaining about how story it has been. I want to tell them that this isn’t close to be a storm. Hell, all its done is make me nostalgic for Michigan and a really autumn storm.

  34. “Shareholders should sell the fucking stock. The Free Market can handle that kind of shit.”

    They are and it did. But that doesn’t help the people that can’t sell this stock. It also doesn’t help the employees getting sacked to cut costs. They had nothing to do with any of this. But they are the ones being punished.

  35. FTR, I never ridiculed the Tea Baggers for protesting. I love making fun of their stupid name, their stupid candidates (I am not a witch), and their stupid arguments, (Get your gov’t hands off my medicare), but I’ve always supported their right to assemble.

    That’s big of you Thorazine John. I have this gut feeling it’s not your profound leniency of right to assemble, but the fact we would steamroll your ass if you tried to intervene.

    Those Teabagger candidates won 113 of 129 races last November, putting you nutsucking Teabaggees to the curb in a historical rout in state houses, put 69 of your cock sucking Dhimmis to the curb in House and Senate, and tied Zero’s hands as President.

    Did you make fun of Michael Jordan on the basketball court too? You need to pick an opponent you can whip.

    ———-

    I thought Ann Coulter’s comment about Judaism not only tongue in cheek, but pretty funny. So did a couple of my Jewish coworkers – of course, they have a sense of humor; another trait Libs incapable of.

  36. They are and it did. But that doesn’t help the people that can’t sell this stock.

    ???

    Individual SHs can always sell stock unless they are employees with access to information not commonly available to others, and if you are talking about institutional investors, if their fund managers are doing that poorly, then they have recourse also.

  37. “Everyone complaining about how story it has been. I want to tell them that this isn’t close to be a storm.”

    That’s because they’re all from California. 🙂

  38. They are and it did. But that doesn’t help the people that can’t sell this stock.

    ???

    Individual SHs can always sell stock unless they are employees with access to information not commonly available to others.

    I was talking about 401k holders. Most corps match a percentage in their own stock, but it is held. The employee owns it but they can’t sell it.

  39. but the fact we would steamroll your ass if you tried to intervene.

    Ooooh. Big scary Tex. And before you tell me about your guns, be warned, I’m an expert in passive resistance. 🙂

    And BTW, you’re kind of a grouch when you wake up fom your nap.

  40. thought Ann Coulter’s comment about Judaism not only tongue in cheek, but pretty funny. So did a couple of my Jewish coworkers – of course, they have a sense of humor; another trait Libs incapable of. – Tex

    So they were down with finding out they needed to be perfected or that the world would be better off if everyone was a Christian? Hmm. I wonder what your LDS friends think of her. I’m sure she’ll say something stupid about them soon.

    BTW when and where is the joint press conference tonight and did you see that Senate Dems passed the AJA, strike that, got a majority but not enough for cloture

  41. Did you make fun of Michael Jordan on the basketball court too? You need to pick an opponent you can whip

    Michael Jordan had a 25% approval rating? He caused the S&P downgrade. Guess I need a subscription to the Washington Examiner. 🙂

  42. “Or community organizations like ACORN step up their game in using the Community Reinvestment Act as a club, threatening big expensive lawsuits if the banks didn’t set aside money for home loans to people who were lousy lending risks”

    CRA loans represented less than 10% of the sub-prime market and CRA loans had a lower rate of foreclosure than higher income non-CRA loans.

  43. Ooooh. Big scary Tex. And before you tell me about your guns, be warned, I’m an expert in passive resistance.

    I like passive resistance. Brings me even more joy to blast the shit out of a man with a passive smile on his face. You’ve got two butt cheeks and one swelled head. When I shoot you in the ass with rock salt for vagrancy and fecklessness, we’ll see how passive you remain. 😉 Doesn’t matter to me which end is in excruciating pain. 😈

    Look Thor – your party is falling apart and your philosophy has been an abysmal failure by any measure. You had your shot with a super majority and it sunk like a lead stone. Give it up while you’ve got one grain of dignity left. Don’t go out a loser. Obama is a loser and his wife is ugly and a bitch. Bet she smells like a man.

    You betting man? You want to bet some cash on next year’s elections right now, and the Tea Party’s 25% approval rating?

    Nobody has taken me up yet on my 100-1 odds that Obama can’t repeat Reagan’s election results. Hell, I’ll make it a 1000-1 odds. Last year, you numb nuts were telling me Obama’s approval rating comparable to Reagan’s. The year before you were telling me Conservatism was dead 🙂

    He’ll, I’ll bet you even up on the Presidential election this minute without even knowing the candidate – even the Tea Party ones. Your messiah against the field? You game for something besides running our mouths. Say a hundred bucks?

  44. Oh, and you can swing that S&P downgrade to somebody else all you want. Kind of like blaming the Republicans about Monica. Serial Raping Bill’s tombstone will have her picture in the corner.

    Blammo is the President, it happened on his watch, his legacy will be stained with it, and his approval rating continues to rim the toilet, each swirl one step closer to the hole. President Flusehd Turd in waiting. 🙂 I give the odds one in three he bails before the election.

    You keep telling yourself everything is great, and I’ll keep patiently waiting for the November 2012 elections.

  45. Ah, what a bummer! 😡

    The Dim Senate kills Zero’s jobs bill. Well, ain’t that a shame. This man is authority of real influence. 😆

    John, did you pee in your pants and faint during Obama’s 2008 campaign speeches like Rutherford did? Are you an Obama groupie?

  46. Thor reminds me more of old Graychin. I’m sure he finds the Post Office a model of liberal effectiveness too.

    By the way Tigre. Want to hear something funny? They are scheduled to close Graychin’s Post Office in Eucha. 😆 Heard the uproar on the news the other night.

  47. Got distracted tonight and have loads of comments to review … will have to wait until tomorrow cos I’ve got to get to bed and kick this damn cold I’ve had.

    One thought, unrelated to the post — I sadly must predict the end of Herman Cain. I think Santorum (of all people) killed the 9-9-9 plan in its baby stroller in tonight’s debate.

    See y’all tomorrow!

  48. OK I lied …. one comment. I don’t think it is fair to say my intent was to shut down the Tea Party because I disliked free expression. I found them profoundly offensive and border line dangerous.

    What this post does is try to set the record straight somewhat, that I was wrong to judge the movement only by its most vile members. Thor is right that there was much to mock in the movement but also some stuff worth listening to. Their method and their hangers-on (i.e, Armey) drowned out that message.

    I’m quite sure you folks think two guys sh*tting where they shouldn’t drowns out the OWS message. So be it.

  49. Why isn’t Hannity allowed to criticize the OWS?

    Who said anything about “allowed to”? He can say whatever he wants and I can call out his hypocrisy, which I did.

  50. Banks that did this were either so utterly stupid they should be fucking extinct or they knowingly did this under the presumption that the government will have their back while everyone else gets screwed 1929 style.” – DR

    What do you think Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are, if not foregone conclusions to federal guarantees? Come on DR, you know better than that. They were forced to do something they didn’t want to do, so they made the best out of it and others took advantage of it. Hedge Funds who leveraged the hell out of those securities and unqualified borrowers who had no business getting into the houses in the first place.

    And come on, I love you like the internet brother you are, but isn’t it a wee bit sanctimonious for you to be crying about the banks and bailouts after you walked away from a house and left the bank hanging on money they lent you? How do you think that affected their bottom line? We can argue whether or not they SHOULD have gotten a bail out, but at the end of the day, you contributed to their NEED for a bail out.

  51. What this post does is try to set the record straight somewhat, that I was wrong to judge the movement only by its most vile members. Thor is right that there was much to mock in the movement but also some stuff worth listening to. Their method and their hangers-on (i.e, Armey) drowned out that message.” – R

    Ahhh…ahhhhh…..ahhhhhh…..BULL SHIT!

    Come on R, we’re not that dumb and it’s a little too convenient that the DCCC and a whole host of leftist groups are trying to suddenly claim that the Tea Party and the OWS movement are two peas from the same pod. You’ve yet to address the rebuttals and their substance to your post. I’ve pointed out the ideological differences, the group participant differences and the behavior differences between the two. I even went as far to show the Dems political machinations to exploit the movement.

    You have refused to address those substantive points, instead focusing on attacking the messenger for criticizing the protests you so desperately need now.

    You’ll have to forgive me if your mea culpa comes across as a little disingenuous. It’s a little too convenient…

  52. By 2007, there was 62 TRILLION in outstanding CDS. Were they forced to do that too?

    You really think the world works that way.

    Dude. Your making yourself look silly.

    You think the banks were forced to give loans out and then forced to buy bonds made up of tranches of these loans and then forced to buy Credit Default Swaps on those bonds.

    Yeah.

    The banks were “forced” to do all of this. Who are these enforcers?

    And those damn hedge funds. They “leveraged”?. I don’t even know how to respond to that one.

  53. “Who said anything about “allowed to”? He can say whatever he wants and I can call out his hypocrisy, which I did.”

    🙄 🙄

    THE ONLY HYPOCRISY YOU’VE POINTED OUT IS YOUR OWN!

    For the love of God, R, quit with the circular reasoning and address the merits. It’s not the illness that prevents you from tackling the comments made here and and least two other blogs I check in on; it’s self-induced nausea. Your subconscious is telling you something. 😆

  54. DR,

    I think there was plenty of pressure to give the loans. I think when the derivitives mechanism was developed, it switched the tide and they wanted to give the loans because the risk was transferred. You have the banks approving a mortgage and selling the same mortgage within hours to… Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Why? Why sell to them? Mostly because they were the ones buying all the mortgages.

    Listen, I won’t begin to claim that I know all the details on this, but from everything I’ve read, a VERY large portion of blame rests on Fannie Mae as mortgage-backed securities were created when Fannie was created in 1968. The Clinton push on CRA only accelerated poor lending practices, which took a mechanism to alleviate backs of mortgage holdings and absolved them of financial obligation. When these securities made it into mainstream investing channels, it completely infected the market.

    http://useconomy.about.com/od/grossdomesticproduct/tp/Subprime_Mortgages_FNMA.htm

    To your point on Hedge Funds, I encourage you to read this:

    But it is not always easy to sell a package of these Mortgage-Backed Securities (MBS). The process of selling such a device demands that the credit quality is assessed – and because the underlying lender is marketing to sub-prime borrowers, the package of debt in the MBS is heavily composed of mortgages quite likely to go into default. So a credit ratings agency will give it a low credit score.

    This makes it difficult to sell, which is where a bunch of smart investment bankers join in.

    The investment bankers slice the MBS into several chunks or “tranches”. These are known as Collateralized Debt Obligations, or CDOs for short. The idea is to create some higher risk assets and some much safer ones, slicing up the MBS into what are called equity, mezzanine and investment-grade bonds.

    The equity takes the higher risk, and so it earns the higher return if things go well. But if things start to go wrong, the equity is lost first…and then the mezzanine. However, even if there’s quite a high rate of failure in the higher risk end, the investment-grade bonds still get fully paid out. This persuades the credit ratings agencies to give them a respectable stamp of approval, thereby creating out of low-quality mortgages a respectable amount of highly-rated bonds.

    In this way the bankers might, for example, convert a large package of MBS into perhaps 70% investment grade bonds, 15% mezzanine, and 15% equity. The original mortgage lender is in a hurry to get the whole MBS off its book, remember, selling the MBS into the financial markets. That way he replenishes his cash and can go out marketing more mortgages to more sub-prime borrowers.

    The investment bank is well motivated to slice up the MBS, and it had better be good at selling all this debt on. It won’t want to keep much – if any – of the newly created CDO tranches, since the bank earns its money primarily by distributing the MBS, rather than by taking risks with the chance of subprime mortgage borrowers not making their repayments on time.

    It is relatively easy to sell the high-grade investment bonds. Stamped with an investment-grade rating, these bonds are sold off to mostly respectable investment institutions. But the mezzanine, and particularly the equity, are less easy to dispose of.

    In effect the 30% of the mortgages in the original MBS which were deemed on a statistical basis to be likely to fail, are concentrated into what investment insiders call “Toxic Waste”. How can these bonds be sold off?

    Enter the hedge fund. Somehow, and possibly even using some its own money, a bank sets up a hedge fund whose objective is to trade in the high-risk CDO equity and mezzanine instruments. Let’s say the bank puts up the first $10 million. The hedge fund then buys the equity tranche of the CDO from the bank.

    With a bit of luck, and this is what happened over recent years, the housing market goes up. Now the equity is floating higher in the water, because there’s a cushion of higher house prices preventing those original sub-prime borrowers from defaulting. This rather obscure equity instrument, which is not traded anywhere and is not liquid, appears to be worth more than it was at issue. It gets marked up in value, and much faster than the underlying houses, because all the price volatility is concentrated in this thin slice of CDO equity.

    The hedge fund is now a performer! And that means it will be rewarded by further investment from outside. So what started as a vehicle with a little investment bank money can grow the funds it manages under its own steam – and that can make its managers very rich.

    Next, and this is what hedge funds are all about, it will leverage its risk, too. The hedge fund goes out to a lending bank, holding its high-performing but illiquid toxic waste in its hand, and it asks to borrow money using the waste as collateral. The bank has access, whether directly or indirectly, to cheap money from Japan – where interest rates remain at just 0.5% – and so it has the prospect of lending for spectacular profits…

  55. Comment #31
    .” And while we’re at it, maybe you could prove that you aren’t just talking out of your ass and detail those “abuses” that the banks are still engaging in”

    Comment #35
    “Hell, even the Making Homes Affordable Act, in which tax money was specifically allocated to banks to lower payments was a complete and utter fraud.”

    Just because you asked!

    Early Mortgage Payment Sets Off Foreclosure
    Bank of America admits to posting error

    by: Blair S. Walker | from: AARP Bulletin | October 1, 2011

    After making her mortgage payment a week early, Sharon Bullington, 70, was stunned when Bank of America began foreclosing on her home. Why? Because, she was told, she made the payment too soon.

    Here’s how it happened. Bullington and her husband, James, 78, had modified their mortgage, cutting payments on their one-story New Port Richey, Fla., home from $1,400 to $916. She mailed the first check on Dec. 23, 2010 — a mistake.
    .
    Sharon and James Bullington paid their mortgage early, prompting Bank of America to mistakenly foreclose on their home.

    In Bank of America’s eyes the check was due Jan. 1, and the early check invalidated the modification. “It’s like death to me,” an emotional Sharon Bullington told the St. Petersburg Times. “I just don’t understand why they’re doing this.”

    Desperate, she wrote to bank CEO and President Brian T. Moynihan and was told the foreclosure couldn’t be stopped. Bullington’s congressman, Rep. Gus Bilirakis, R-Fla., contacted the bank on her behalf. “It is extremely frustrating to hear about cases such as these,” he said. Bullington’s St. Petersburg attorney, Shawn Yesner, 38, said, “I’ve seen some crazy stuff, but this is a first.”

    In August, Bank of America issued a statement admitting it “made an error posting” one of the Bullingtons’ mortgage payments. It also offered the couple “a long-term affordable mortgage,” and agreed to reimburse the couple for $1,800 in legal fees and waived late fees. That should resolve the matter, Yesner says.

  56. I don’t get your point Raji.

    I assure you, bnaks don;t want property in foreclosure unless they have to take it. It’s a liability on their books. You’ve identified what appears to be a fuck up or bad judgement . Not systemic abuse to take property (which is ludicrous when most properties, especially residential, are depreciating).

    Rabbit, as for your gripes about the banks (generally) and foreclosure, I am having a hard time understanding your rage for the reasons pointed out by Gorilla. Assholes or not, how were you harmed in taking a mortgage you ultimately lost the ability to service?

  57. My main bitch with this OWS ruse is the blatant hypocrisy of their nebulous demands. It’s a sham to hide Obama’s miserable failure, and collect power for unions. Yes, big banks are inept, corrupt and connected. On that point, we can all agree. My neighbor is losing her house and you can’t believe how moronic Wells Fargo has been through the entire process. She sells her house to cover the balance in a short sale, but the bank tells her it won’t accept anything that low. ❓

    OWS are going to march on Murdoch’s home, but let Michael Bloomberg go unscathed. There’s always the evil Koch Brothers to vent, but they are silent on George Soros. They’re supported by punk rappers wearing thousands in bling, limousine liberals like Susan Sarandon, and multi-millionaire scum propagandists like Michael Moore – a leftist wet dream. Where’s their outrage over these millionaires and billionaires?

    They blame the banks for all their ills, but never make mention they signed the loans and walked from the debt, leaving the rest of us to pick up the bill.

    They demand free education and whine about student loan debt, but majored in French Literature (with a Master’s mind you) and have to work in the food industry. They must be oblivious to the fact that the cost of higher education has increased at twice the rate of healthcare. Where’s their demands on the colleges? They loved the bailout of GM but condemn the banks. The banks should unionize the white collar loons and they could join the mix.

    This selective outrage is so specious, OWS can’t be taken seriously about anything. Throw in they’ve partnered with professional whiners, race pimps, community activists, aging hippies, dopers, slackers, and the dregs, and they leave everything they touch festered with rot.

    You’re looking at the worst America has to offer. They can protest to their heart’s content, but its not going anywhere and in fact, is a stark reminder of why the Left is slowly ruining the country.

    Reoccupy Woodstock.

  58. “She sells her house to cover the balance in a short sale, but the bank tells her it won’t accept anything that low.”

    That doesn’t make sense.

    I’ll wager your neighbor isn;t telling you something. If they won’t release the deed, WF is set up for a sweet suit by your neighbor.

  59. Tex, I am still convinced it’s a proxy movement attended by the useful idiots.

    As I said, the real reason that these people are out in force making uncertain and profoundly useless demands on “business and corporation”s is because they are unwilling to blame the man they elected.

    Someone on with rolling Stone was on MSNBC this morning stating that some of their probable but inchoate demands made sense and could be met. His example was “the breaking up of banks.” The question I had remains: “how does occupying WS and camping out in from of millionaire’s homes accomplish that?” It is a regulatory issue — and one that was abolished under their liberal leadership of the Clinton era.

  60. R, TARP was actually a problem for many them. It had to be repaid, remember? They couldn’t be expected to make more high risk loans with it either. Many banks were forced to simply purchased more troubled assets (which is why you saw so much consolidation). Simply put, requiring a bank to accept billions of dollars, be liable for it and repay it when they don;t need or want it is a real problem.

  61. You mean the banks who were FORCED to take the bailout money

    Oh, cry me a river …. those poor banks!!!

    I know, Rutherford.

    Reality IS hard, whether it is the complete and utter failure of your boy-king, or your ignorance that the late 70’s were also a time of financial suck.

    But there is still time. You could turn off the MSDNC and join us here in reality.

  62. Rabbit, after reading several comments it is clear that BiW is an apologist for big money, and the financial sector. The fact that he makes banks the victim is disgusting.

  63. Seriously, focusing your rage on the banks for the shit that Congress bent over backwards to ignore is like blaming a five year old for chosing cookies for dinner

    THAT is the f*cking problem!!! Bankers aren’t five year olds. They are expected to act like adults with some moral barometer in place. So called Christians who ought to know that greed is one of the seven sins seem to be real eager to forgive it.

  64. I’m still waiting for R to explain the “virtues” of marching on people’s homes.

    You really want to go there? Let me tell you something. One of my biggest regrets was that all the race riots of the 60’s ended in people burning down their own neighborhoods. I never understood that. They should have marched up town to those who represented their oppressors and burned those damn neighborhoods down.

    After watching TPM folks sport their guns at rallies and carry signs saying “we came unarmed … this time” I’m more than a little tickled that you folks are concerned about potential violence from the OWS crowd. That element of the Tea Party was lookin’ for an ass-whuppin’ that never came. The times they are a changin’. We’ll see how things unfold. 😉

  65. BiW is not an apologist, he is a realist.

    (R, this posting is messed up recently. Brand new computer — it ain’t ram).

  66. Tickled that you folks are concerned about potential violence from the OWS?

    Who’s worried about their violence Mighty Lion? Are you threatening it? Is this the hatred and vitriol that had you so fearful months ago? Or is this just more of YOUR hypocrisy?

  67. Thor, you’re making Yellowdog look like a savant.

    Tigre, I doubt Thor knows who Yellowdog is so you’re shooting blanks. On the bright side, I’m sure Yellowdog would be proud that he has achieved iconic status on this board. 🙂

  68. Burn down the towns!!!! That’
    ll show them.

    (or they could write sternly worded emails on their MAC laptops and beat drums)

  69. R, the more you write, the more I’m convinced that you know you’ve “stepped in it” with your outraged charges of hypocrisy.

    “Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow,
    Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
    To the last syllable of recorded time,
    And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
    The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
    Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
    And then is heard no more: it is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing.”

  70. Hmm, Tiger
    I guess we could just say banks make a LOT of bad judgement calls. I have a feeling Mrs. Bullington felt abused by the system.
    My point was to give BIW one example of abuse. I’m sure there are many other examples of “bad judgement” calls that aren’t published.

  71. Tex, I posted an article a few days ago about a dude who walked away from his house. You responded with a scathing critique. Now I have to ask you … was it the source (HuffPo) that got you so worked up? Because honestly, without knowing the details of Rabbit’s situation, I don’t see a lot of difference between that guy and Rabbit. So you basically issued Rabbit an ass whupping.

    Care to explain?

    Rabbit … you read the article. Can you point out how that guy behaved less virtuously than you did?

  72. It’s a sham to hide Obama’s miserable failure.

    Ahhhhh now I get it. All the OWS crowd needs are a few Obama-as-Hitler signs to make Tex fall in love with them.

    I’ll get the word out. 😉

  73. Of course I shouldn’t expect you to understand that. You’re part of the 99% 🙄

    And you’re part of the 1%? Maybe that is indeed the problem. Otherwise you exemplify “what’s the matter with Kansas”. 😉

  74. R, this posting is messed up recently. Brand new computer — it ain’t ram

    I think it’s a new WordPress upgrade that makes it hard for conservatives to post comments. 🙂

  75. I confess that I don’t remember Macbeth well enough to know the context of the sound and fury quote but standing alone on the page Tigre it looks like a declaration of the futility of life. So the OWS crowd should just shut up because they can’t change anything.

    Cynical.

  76. “Someone on with rolling Stone was on MSNBC this morning stating that some of their probable but inchoate demands made sense and could be met. His example was “the breaking up of banks.””

    This is Glass-Steagal, repealed under Clinton and signed off on by a Republican congress under the virtues of deregulation. See where it got us. Again, at the Westlake “Mob”, there were signs with “Repeal Glass-Steagal on one side and Obama with a Hitler stache on the other. If the DNC is behind this, some of their minions have gone off the reservation.

  77. THAT is the f*cking problem!!! Bankers aren’t five year olds. They are expected to act like adults with some moral barometer in place. So called Christians who ought to know that greed is one of the seven sins seem to be real eager to forgive it.

    I am constantly amazed at your ability to add 2 + 2 and come up with 7.

    Let’s step back a minute, shall we?

    1. Corporations do not exist to be “moral” actors in society. You can put that childish notion behind you with the Tooth Fairy and “fairness”. They wxiist to creat maximum value for shareholders.

    2. Governmentcan and should impose reasonable regulations on how corporations conduct their business. But this also means keeping in mind that when government removes those restrictions, it now explicitly permits that behavior, and tacitly sanctions it.

    3. The banks didn’t really want to be engaged in subprime lending. From a business perspective, it wasn’t a good risk UNTIL government made it one.

    4. All this piss and vinegar about “greed” from people demanding that they be paid exhorbitantly for entry level work and get their MFAs in Medieval Romainian Literature is the very definition of hypocrisy, and since your understanding of Christianity couldn’t fill a thimble, I suggest that you quit doing your imitation of a monkey playing with a book of matches before you find out that your fingers are burned.

    5. Your enemy here is a Congress and Executive that is largely as ignorant or as mendacious as yourself; screaming at the banks for doing what they do is no different than screaming at the wind for blowing your hut over.

  78. FINALLY someone mentions Glass-Steagall!!! I don’t understand all the ramifications but I sure know it is dangerous to let banks use ordinary people’s money to gamble with.

    Re-instate Glass-Steagall now!

  79. I’ll wager your neighbor isn;t telling you something. If they won’t release the deed, WF is set up for a sweet suit by your neighbor.

    I don’t know Tigre. I’ve been friends with “Bonnie” for a long time, and know exactly what she has in savings (practically nothing) – our friendship is that open, because I’ve kind of become the platonic, surrogate man in her life since her husband passed away several years ago, and have even helped her manage her meager finances. Though she’s 75, she’s completely lucid. This is a tragic story of being bilked by her own family, and it is all I can do to hold my tongue around her daughter that I graduated with.

    It didn’t make any sense to me either, but Bonnie would have no reason to lie to me. I even know what she gives her worthless grand kids every month to allow them to live off the street.

    The only thing I can think of is that her mortgage in conjunction with her sky high credit card bills exceeds the value of the offer on the house. Truthfully, I don’t know enough about real estate transactions to even venture a guess, because I don’t even know for sure how they measure creditworthiness, or how they handle a short sale of a house. I’d never heard the term until she told me one day.

    Whatever it is, Wells Fargo appears in no hurry to sell the house, even now that Bonnie has stopped making payment. Do you have a guess as to why, because you know a heck of a lot more about this than I do. Is it because they think they have her over the ringer? I don’t know how, because she’s now worth nothing.

    But I do know that Bonnie has now talked to various depts. within the bank, some threatening, some not. And the right hand of the bank doesn’t know what the left hand is doing – don’t even know enough to realize another dept. has been in contact.

    I thought AT&T was the most inept company in America. Not anymore.

  80. It’s getting easier to see where that line in the sand is being drawn and which side of “the establishment” people are on. It’s funny to see “tea party” people standing up for these banksters and criticizing our collective youth.

    I’ve heard all the Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae rhetoric now for the past 4 years. Fannie became a private corporation in 1968. Don’t you people know PRIVATE investors (stock holders) own them and the government only subsidizes them? They are not government bureaucracies. The government bailout was merely implied, not required or any kind of written promise. That implication is what gave them a higher credit rating and allowed for many of the abuses.

    And then there’s all the union bashing. Unions = evil. Unions are supposedly the biggest problems in our society today (GOP rhetoric) because they want too much pay and benefits for sub par work and therefore have forced all these poor abused corporations to offshore their facilities in order to stay competitive. Ohhhh, and that evil ACORN. 🙄 They’re a big part of the problem. If we could just stamp out anything that gives people any collective power, then the “free” market can regulate justice. Yeah, I got your number.

  81. I confess that I don’t remember Macbeth well enough to know the context of the sound and fury quote but standing alone on the page Tigre it looks like a declaration of the futility of life. So the OWS crowd should just shut up because they can’t change anything.

    Cynical.

    Apparently, we need to redo the MOHS scale, because the hardest substance in existence isn’t diamond, its the bone in your skull.

    Change is possible…TRY A FUCKING BALLOT BOX, YOU JACKASS.

    The French Revolution has already been done. Blood, misery, and death won’t bring you anything worth having, will most likely claim its biggest proponents, and will place nearly every good thing about being an American out of the reach of the survivors for a decade or longer.

    I know you’re getting your talking points from clowns like these, R, but if your precious “revolutionaries” unleash Hell, I PROMISE you that the end result will be good for no one.

    http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/12/maddow-maher-on-occupy-wall-street-is-movement-deriving-power-from-athreat-of-violence/

  82. Gorilla, if the main gist of the UK Daily Mail article was that some chunk of the protesters are well off …. well so f*cking what?

    Let’s talk about the demographics of the Tea Party protesters who at first blush many of us assumed were put-upon blue collar types, only to discover they were comfy middle class and upper middle class folks.

    At any public protest there are a variety of motivations. Some just show up to “have a good time”. I guarantee you that was the case with some Tea Partiers. Others are there because they live in the belly of the beast. Others are there because they show that rare trait in short supply these days — empathy.

  83. With all due respect Thor, regulations are a sky high cost to American business, and one of the prime motivators for companies leaving for greener pastures. In fact, compliance costs Americans $1.75 trillion a year – about an 1/8th of the entire GDP. And then you Libs wonder why companies are laying people off? Do you goons not realize there is always a cost associated with compliance?

    You shills from the Left are always harping for more regulation as savior. Remember Sarbanes-Oxley of 2002? How did that work for us in the last collapse?

    More regulation is not the answer. Real punishment for the law breaker is. You want to throw some of these bastards in prison, I’m with you. Some of these thieves definitely deserved to go to prison. You can start with Stan O’Neal, benefactor of sub-primes…He loses $8 Billion, walks Away with $160 Million severance. Of course, he’s black, Dimocratic and I rabid Obama supporter – so that never gets mentioned of your various complains.

    You want to impose another cost that doesn’t work but damages business, forget it.

  84. The federal takeover of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac refers to the placing into conservatorship of government sponsored enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by the U.S. Treasury in September 2008. It was one financial event among many in the ongoing subprime mortgage crisis.

    On September 6, 2008, the director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA), James B. Lockhart III, announced his decision to place two Government sponsored enterprises (GSEs), Fannie Mae (Federal National Mortgage Association) and Freddie Mac (Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation), into conservatorship run by the FHFA.

  85. Hmm, Tiger
    I guess we could just say banks make a LOT of bad judgement calls. I have a feeling Mrs. Bullington felt abused by the system.
    My point was to give BIW one example of abuse. I’m sure there are many other examples of “bad judgement” calls that aren’t published.

    Stupid business tricks aren’t the same as an “abuse”.

  86. I guarantee you that was the case with some Tea Partiers.

    Wrong. They were people who would normally be to busy with their lives to bother “protesting” anything, but who were tired of a government mortaging their children and grandchildren for the ability to buy a few more votes and the power that comes with it today.

  87. “I like passive resistance. Brings me even more joy to blast the shit out of a man with a passive smile on his face. You’ve got two butt cheeks and one swelled head. When I shoot you in the ass with rock salt for vagrancy and fecklessness, we’ll see how passive you remain” -Tex

    That was awesome. 🙂 But now I have to reload the Keurig, blew the coffee out of my cup. I did get threatened once with rock salt. We were picking (fill in the blank) in an old man’s pasture.
    Nobody has taken me up yet on my 100-1 odds that Obama can’t repeat Reagan’s election results. Hell, I’ll make it a 1000-1 odds. Last year, you numb nuts were telling me Obama’s approval rating comparable to Reagan’s. The year before you were telling me Conservatism was dead – Tex

    I never said conservatism was dead. That must have been R. I will take your bet if it’s straight up for an Obama victory, but not a landslide. I don’t think anyone will win that big again. After the Clinton and Bush era, the nation is too polarized. Even Obama’s “landslide” still left McCain with 20 plus states.

  88. Let’s talk about the demographics of the Tea Party protesters who at first blush many of us assumed were put-upon blue collar types, only to discover they were comfy middle class and upper middle class folks.” – R

    Who constitute the 53% of America who PAY TAXES.

    And please, you tell me you do not see the irony and hypocrisy of rich kids protesting rich people? Millionaire celebrities and politicians protesting the rich? Please.

    I went to Tea Party rallies, never did I see anyone shit on a car, fuck in public, do drugs, or destroy property.

    R, here’s your argument…

  89. They’re a big part of the problem. If we could just stamp out anything that gives people any collective power, then the “free” market can regulate justice. Yeah, I got your number.

    Right. Listen welsh and resident thief, you have no place to be complaining about anything. You been living off the dole your entire adult life of failure. You don’t even have sense to pay your taxes, walked on your mortgage, stiffed the utilities, up to your eyeballs in free bennies, and frankly are a pox on America. You ought to be down there with the dregs at OWS. You’d fit right in.

    You don’t have the damn sense to be able to take of yourself, much less recognize solutions for America.

    I suggest you sit this one out Brick, because John Dillinger would carry more credibility about banking business complaints than you do.

    I have a real hard on for benefactors of theft then having the gall to turn around and criticize those of us who carry your water to allow you to live out your miserable existence.

  90. Corporations do not exist to be “moral” actors in society.

    This is a dodge and a cop-out that helps you sleep at night. Corporations are run by people with a moral barometer. If we don’t care about moral conduct, what difference is there between corporations and the Mafia both of which run businesses?

    I KNOW for a fact that corporations can have a moral character. The one I worked for survived the Great Depression without laying off a single employee. Then I sat and watched the company gradually turn to sh*t from 1991 and beyond as it flushed its principles down the toilet. Maybe you never had the privilege to work for a company that espoused values and followed them. I did.

    Lastly, I hardly need to be a Biblical scholar to know something is funky when a self-professed Christian tells me that believing in corporate morality is like believing in the Tooth Fairy. Either one is a follower of Jesus Christ or a follower of Gordon Gecko. Which is it?

  91. The Macbeth quote was on the futility of life. However, it was about YOU, not the OWS. You ain’t helping their cause on iota with your fist-pounding outraged screams of hypocrisy and blame leveling without a cogent set of facts to support them.

    I love tr when youy’re being evasive Rutherford. 😆

  92. Anybody giving odds that Holder is Dead Man Walking (figuratively, of course)? 😈 He’s an obvious liar and hack. Does my heart good to watch that troglodyte cast to the winds.

    I can’t wait to see that chinless wonder tossed to the curb. Sucks to be a Lib.

  93. BiW you’ve partly missed the point in the Daily Caller article. The supposition shared by Maddow and Maher is that BOTH the Tea Party and the OWS protests gained traction because of an underlying fear of potential violence.

    Any group of folks who gather in public with a message we either don’t understand or disagree with are a mob.

  94. This is my take on the situation for what it’s worth 😉

    When the tea party grass movement started it was portrayed by the MSM as a group of jobless, retired, toothless senior citizens who were bused in waving illiterate signs and wearing tea bags dangling from their hats. They were led in their cries of “get your hands off my medicare” and proudly declared they were “tea baggers”. This group didn’t defecate on public property as they wore their depends in case there was no handicap rail to help them squat. Just imagine their horror when someone informed them what teabagger meant.

    As the movement seemed to take hold, the political powers of interest started organizing the Tea Party into the political group it has morphed into today. The main accomplishment of the TP was to create a wake-up call to a large population of senior citizens that normally just vote the ticket and do not involve themselves in the issues.

    The OWS/Occupy City movement has been portrayed by the MSM as a group of jobless, homeless, hippy youth, defecating on public property, waving signs of irresponsible demands taking their clues from the days of Woodstock and the 60’s.
    The group as portrayed will have no more lasting quality than the early group of Tea Partiers.

    What will be interesting is to watch what political powers invest in this movement to further their own goals and then and only then will we see the movement grow. The main accomplishment will be to create a wake-up call to a large population of youth that have not involved themselves in politics since the election of Obama. It will be interesting to see what type of group they morph into by November 2012 and what political power will be their leader.

    So I agree with Rutherford about the similarities but only in the beginning stages of each movement. The importance of these rallies and demonstrations is the WAKE-UP call to the people that aren’t there!

  95. You guys see President Zero tried to apologize for Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Yeah, the sorry bastard took it upon himself to apologize to the Japanese like he did to radical Islam.

    http://www.investors.com/newsandanalysis/article/587698/201110111529/Apologies-Not-Accepted.aspx?ven=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+EditorialRss+%28Editorial+RSS%29

    I want to apologize to the world for the millions of rubes who voted for Obama in 2008 and foisted that charlatan upon the free world. A historical embarrassment.

    What’s the popular bumper sticker? You proved to in 2008, you weren’t racists. Now prove to us in 2012, you aren’t stupid.

  96. Wrong. They were people who would normally be to busy with their lives to bother “protesting” anything, but who were tired of a government mortaging their children and grandchildren for the ability to buy a few more votes and the power that comes with it today.

    HOLY COW …. now who believes in the Tooth Fairy? Are you kidding me? Are you really going to suggest no one showed up at Tea Party rallies just to see what was going on and hang out?

    Damn, you write about the Tea Party like I used to write about Obama. Funny stuff!!!

  97. “Re-instate Glass-Steagall now!”

    Take it up with your elected officials Rutherford.

    Do you even remember what anyone else has said here about the misdirected OWS crowd? Their not petitioning anyone that is capable of enacting it. Their standing in front of someones mansion pitying their lot in life and demanding concessions.

    (kidding — of course you do, you just want to avoid it)

  98. You shills from the Left are always harping for more regulation as savior. – Tex

    I’m not saying to ADD regs, I’m talking about reinstating a reg that was put in place in ’33 and was partner to the greatest financial growth (including the Reagan Miracle) in the history of mankind. It was dropped in ’99. How things been going since then. And it’s just a firewall. You want to be a financial bank, go for it. It just keeps you from dipping into the local hardware store’s credit line to get your gambling money. It’s your best bet against further bailouts. Just read the history of it Tex. I think this is something most of us here could agree on. Now I gotta go to work, got to get out of here before the ptotesters block the driveway. I hear drums …

  99. R, rewrite this fucking post.

    This time, drop the mea culpa, I-was-lost-but-now-I’m-found bullshit and focus on the substantive differences and similarities between the Tea Party and the OWS movement. You’re too busy defending this atrocity to actually deal with anything of substance right now. We’re talking way about your head and you’re completely missing the boat.

  100. “Do you have a guess as to why, because you know a heck of a lot more about this than I do. Is it because they think they have her over the ringer?”

    It ain’t credit card bills. Those are separate and unsecured.

    I’ll wager that she’s got a higher default balance and lower sales price than she imagines — or an equity line that from creditor that won;t assent because the sales price is only sufficient to release the first lien holder.

    Other than that, I haven’t a clue if she does indeed have an offer that’s sufficient to cover the balance (or anywhere close to it by like a hundred miles).

  101. Tiger
    Your profession is showing 😆

    Your Honor, my client showed bad judgement when he kicked the kid after the hammer dropped on his toe………

  102. Lastly, I hardly need to be a Biblical scholar to know something is funky when a self-professed Christian tells me that believing in corporate morality is like believing in the Tooth Fairy. Either one is a follower of Jesus Christ or a follower of Gordon Gecko. Which is it?

    Clueless,
    The fact that you are not a Bible scholar is evident from the content of your tantrum, and the fact that Mr. “Religion is a sham” has decided to seek refuge and argue from behind its cover shows how far you’re retreat from your own poor eyesight and hypocrisy has taken you.
    Corporations do not, as a rule, exist to be moral actors in society. While there are some exceptions, you generally do not find declarations of moral principals and precepts in their Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws. Their purpose is to maximize value to shareholders. And when they do so by means that the governments under which they are organzied have made LEGAL, your mewling and whining has about as much merit as the remnants of last night’s dinner that I just flushed down the toilet. If you are going to start using the Bible to justify or invalidate what goes on around you in society today, then I suggest that you use ALL of it, while keeping a very keen eye on the things you have argued in the past.

    Jesus reminded us to render unto Caesar that which is his, and that to God which is his. Corporations have just as much right to be “Immoral” (however you choose to define it) as Larry Flynt or Bob Guccione. And frankly, if I have no right to expect my government to reflect Christian morality, as you have argued in various ways since we first encountered each other, then you really have no legitimate expectation that PRIVATE entities can and should act in a manner which you, the nonchristian’s nonchristian believe to be moral.

    Rutherford, if you don’t like the way that the crow tastes, you could always quit serving it to yourself.

  103. “I thought AT&T was the most inept company in America. Not anymore.”

    Oh no. I have first-hand examples of ineptitude that are downright breathtaking.

  104. I went to Tea Party rallies, never did I see anyone shit on a car, fuck in public, do drugs, or destroy property.

    Nope the TPM folks enjoyed that tacit dog-whistle depravity exemplified by “We came unarmed …. this time”. Different style, same destructive attitude.

  105. Raji, thank you for #139. Yet another cogent argument from you. I always enjoy reading your take on things regardless of whether I agree 100% or not.

    P.S. If you don’t blog, consider doing it. Your writing is efficient and effective. Just sayin’.

  106. “Anybody giving odds that Holder is Dead Man Walking (figuratively, of course)?”

    He’ll only go down with Obama. The dismissal of the NBP case was directed by Obama himself. I’ll put money on it. Otherwise Obama would throw him under the bus.

    What I love is the left now worrying about criminalizing the actions of their elected officials when that’s all they did just 5 years ago. They should be might worried.

  107. Raji, I don’t get your 146. I make no arguments at all. Tex asked if I had a reason that might explain an inexplicable circumstance.

  108. Nope the TPM folks enjoyed that tacit dog-whistle depravity exemplified by “We came unarmed …. this time”. Different style, same destructive attitude.

    Ahh yes…no illegal activity that interferes with the public peace…just a reminder to the people who actually answer to us that they will answer to us.

    ABSOLUTELY THE SAME THING.

    In bizarro world.

  109. I’ve got this sneaking suspicion by the end of this year, this post will go the way of that post lending accusation toward Jared Loughner being a Tea Party sympathizer, before info leaked about Loughner’s Manifesto – which was quietly swept under the rug by the liberal establishment. 🙂

  110. “Nope the TPM folks enjoyed that tacit dog-whistle depravity exemplified by “We came unarmed …. this time”. Different style, same destructive attitude.”

    R, you sound like quite the hypocrite.

    (Gorilla’s totally nailed you to the wall. You really should back off of this MSNBC meme).

  111. We’re talking way about your head and you’re completely missing the boat.

    No, as usual you’re talking about matters tangential to the actual point of the post. Not that I mind … I enjoy the dialog … but the post says what it is meant to say. We all see protest as the ultimate American free expression until the topic threatens us. That makes all of us (including the post’s author) hypocrites.

  112. R, I am not threatened by the OWS. I find them amusing and totally misguided. You’re the stinking ‘fraidy cat in one instance, and Mighty Lion in the next. Go burn down “the other guy’s town.” Give me a freakin’ break.

  113. And frankly, you are just demanding that we accept the message because you view the messenger as the same individual (metaphorically speaking).

  114. Tex, this is just another Loughner post.

    Can we go back to talking about Obama, Holder, f & F, Solyndra, killing American Citizens after the outrage over Gitmo, and the new $1.2 billion loan guarantee handed to Obama’s friends that is ion jeopardy. You know transparency and Hope & Change turns into cover-up and despair?

    Kidding again. r won;t talk about those things because MSNBC won’t talk about those things.

  115. and the fact that Mr. “Religion is a sham” has decided to seek refuge and argue from behind its cover shows how far you’re retreat from your own poor eyesight

    I think I’ve gone on record more than once in saying that the Bible has “stories” that are of value in moral instruction. Self professed Christians claim to be guided by the lessons found in those stories. So I don’t think it is a stretch to expect Christians to be at the forefront of opposing corporate greed.

    By the way, from a business perspective Bob Guccione and Larry Flynt act in the context of a corporation. That is my point … of course a corporation does not act in a moral or immoral manner … the people who run it do. Who knows, there may be more wisdom to Mitt Romney’s comment about corporations being people than the MSM has given credit for.

  116. that post lending accusation toward Jared Loughner being a Tea Party sympathizer

    You guys sometimes remember my stuff better than I do. Tex, a link please to the post where I tied Loughner to the Tea Party? I don’t remember it.

  117. Tigre,

    I haven’t given thought to second mortgage. 😦 You could be right. I hope you’re not. Maybe she has not divulged all her secrets out of embarrassment. She told me last week, she is paying Sears Credit Card 27% or 29% interest. I can’t remember exactly. Want to talk about loan sharking?

    It is a travesty what this good woman has allowed her family to get away with – and these are her step grandchildren she adopted from her husband, who did leave her free and clear of a mortgage. It makes me angry with her for allowing these amoral bums to use her, and worse, they are still doing it. Her step daughter has carried furniture out of her house. 😡

    Bonnie has paid their legal bills, health care, cars they’ve wrecked, presents for her great grandchildren. The great grand kids lived with her for a while, and I would help the little boy with his schooling when asked. He is small and was bullied in school to the point my neighbor actually asked me to intervene. But what the heck could I do? Talk to the principal? There is your excellent public school system at work.

    There has been absolutely no male presence in their lives worth mentioning. These kids don’t have a chance and my heart aches for them.

    And this is a nice, suburban neighborhood. What must it be like in the urban areas? I shudder to think what is coming down the pike.

  118. And frankly, you are just demanding that we accept the message because you view the messenger as the same individual (metaphorically speaking).

    You lost me on that one. ❓

  119. On a side note — Romney clearly won last night’s debate. Unless we find out that some young intern has been inside his magic underwear, you boys better get ready for a Romney campaign next fall. 🙂

  120. Can we go back to talking about Obama, Holder, f & F, Solyndra, killing American Citizens after the outrage over Gitmo, and the new $1.2 billion loan guarantee handed to Obama’s friends that is ion jeopardy. You know transparency and Hope & Change turns into cover-up and despair?

    Did it ever occur to you that all these things contribute to an environment where angry people gather and protest? I’m not saying this stuff has been called out specifically but surely in a society where hope and change was alive and well, we wouldn’t have OWS.

  121. Did it ever occur to you that all these things contribute to an environment where angry people gather and protest? I’m not saying this stuff has been called out specifically but surely in a society where hope and change was alive and well, we wouldn’t have OWS.

    I’m betting that 9 out of 10 “Occupiers” think that “Solyndra” is a shampoo, and didn’t recall seeing anyone named “Holder” in the latest installment of the “Fast and Furious” movies.

  122. Afterall, we’re dealing with people who have watched Perry Mason reruns or episodes of Boston Legal, and therefore totally get why Citizens United was bad law.

    Going to law school, passing the bar, and reading the decision, rather than the Mother Jones synopsis is for suckers.

  123. “Did it ever occur to you that all these things contribute to an environment where angry people gather and protest? I’m not saying this stuff has been called out specifically but surely in a society where hope and change was alive and well, we wouldn’t have OWS.”

    Are you angry Rutherford?

    Obama killed hope and change.

  124. R, since you moved to Chicago, maybe you should occupy Obama’s neighborhood — or better yet, burn it to the ground!

  125. I have a real hard on for benefactors of theft then having the gall to turn around and criticize those of us who carry your water to allow you to live out your miserable existence.

    Firstly, I don’t care about your perpetual hard on. That is definitely your problem. Let’s review, shall we? Because you keep getting your pajamas in a bunch over your own false ASSumptions.

    ALL MY TAXES (federal, state, and corporate) HAVE BEEN PAID IN FULL And even more, taking into account the penalties, interest, and the IRS’s refusal to pay back withholding that was overpaid in previous years.

    As far as my mortgage, that is not yet entirely resolved. The bank still hasn’t paid me the “cash for keys” they promised months ago, even though they claim I complied with all the requirements. There is still the issue of whether they have the actual original deed or not. I don’t know where that will end up, but the lender was not who I originated my mortgage with, rather the fourth in a line of succession that assumed my note. Every one of them benefited financially by “selling” that note. The final lender has not only lied to me on several occasions that I’ve documented, but they have exhibited the same ineptness that seems common among many of us “walkouts”. They strung me along with the promise of a loan modification that in the end proved they had no intention of making.

    I may have to pay another middleman (lawyer) to get to the bottom of it. But I will only go there after I exhaust the State Attorney General route. It has actually been quite an educational experience.

    All my utilities and bills are current, so STFU. My wife is working full-time and is now part of management. With her contribution, I can nurse this pool company through these economic doldrums.

  126. I’m betting that 9 out of 10 “Occupiers” think that “Solyndra” is a shampoo, and didn’t recall seeing anyone named “Holder” in the latest installment of the “Fast and Furious” movies.

    On that, you’d probably be right.

  127. My wife is working full-time and is now part of management. With her contribution, I can nurse this pool company through these economic doldrums.

    Sadly sounds like my situation as my wife works full time while my company is on life-support, waiting for a couple of potentially fruitful ships to dock.

  128. You’re greedy pigs, and I deserve to get my education in worthless esoterica for free!

    Funny you should mention that. I think most of us have heard stories of American pride from our parents. One of the ones I heard over and over was how both my parents got their college educations (in the 50’s) for free. They marveled at how only in America could one attain that much education for free. They didn’t feel it was owed to them. They were grateful. But I find it sad that those days appear to be gone.

  129. Really? For free?

    Everyone in my family who went to college before and after the 1950’s tells a very different story. While there were scholarships and GI bills involved for a few of them, they all knew it had a price tag, because they all worked to defray the costs of their “free” college educations, like my Grandfather, who worked nights at Oldsmobile in Lansing, while getting his degree at MSU. He’s just one example, but one that stands out for me.

  130. And my parents?
    Dad worked full time managing two gas stations while getting his degree, and my mother worked full time in the graphic arts department of the local department store until she had me. She didn’t work the last 6 months of college, and I attended classes with her occaisionally as she finished her degree.

  131. I have an announcement to make.

    Obama did something that I can approve of.

    When he met with the Republicans and raised the federal estate tax threshold for 2011 from the pittance it was scheduled to fall to to $5 million dollars, he also agreed to raising the lifetime exclusion for federal gift tax for gifts to $5 million, and allowed a provision for unused lifetime exemption for a spouse to be transferred to the surviving spouse on election by filing a timely 706 after the first death.

    WOOT!!!

    The game has changed for high-end planning. Yee-ha!

  132. “ok, so help a brotha out.”

    R, you’ve been accused of creating a false equivalency between the tea party and OWS.

    Your response: “You’re all hypocrites. The manner in which the OWS is protesting is not meaningfully different than the tea party.”

    I say, “But wait a minute. You didn’t support the tea party’s methods or message, why are we the hypocrites?

    Your response, “Well, I take that back. Maybe I overreacted. Mea culpa. So, now you’re the hypocrites if you ca’;t see that these people have a point.”

    “But their point is stupid, and so is their method. At least the tea party protested elected officials and had political gripes and coherent calls to action. They didn’t just party in the streets. The OWS is lash out capitalist to protest the inequities of capitalism that actually have them enjoying a standard of living beyond virtually the entire rest of the world. The tea party did;t seek to abolish democracy or the government. To the contrary, they sought to exercise their rights to participate in it and seek redress from those accountable to them as them. The OWS says their objective is to destroy the system. And look at how they’re behaving.”

    “Your response, “that’s democracy and you;’re a hypocrite since you didn’t denounce the tea party.”

    “But they’re not the same, either in method or message. How is that hypocrisy.”

    Response, “because they’re protesting, just like the tea party.”

    R, I have said countless times “they’re not the same, either in method or message.”

    Response, “how can you say that? they’re exercising their right of assembly.”

    R, “we’re not disputing that. No one here said they didn’t have a right to assemble. The methods, like shitting on flags, trashing their surroundings etc. aren’t at all like the tea party. And their message doesn’t make sense.”

    “How dare you criticize them you hypocrite. They’re protest in just like the tea party. And BTW, the tea party was really scary and dangerous and stupid and nobody stopped them.”

    “We’re not stopping them. Why won’t you address their message and methods?”

    “Because you’re picking the worst of them just like we did with the tea party — you hypocrite.”

    R, I could do this for hours. If you will answer Gorilla’s post and draw true equivalencies we can move on. But if you ONLY point is “this is a protest and since the tea party was a protest then they’re really the same thing” you’re just. . . a fucking moron!

    My comment is that you direct everything back to the messengers, not the message or method. Go there. I dare you.

    WE ALREADY KNOW YOU’RE A HYPOCRITE AND NO ONE SAID THEY DON’T HAVE A RIGHT TO EXERCISE THEIR FIRST AMENDEMENT RIGHTS. QUIT RETREATING TO IT TO AVOID THE MERITS OF THE ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE OWS.

  133. Either way, we’ve traveled well beyond “Let your yes be yes…

    The paper printers have diminished the value of a million.

    Usury. I wonder where we would be without it?

  134. LOL Tigre, thanks for the “help”.

    Mmmmm, maybe verbosity has cost me some reading comprehension on your part?

    I distinctly thought I said in the main post that BOTH the Tea Party and OWS were angry about the bank bailouts. I went on to say that the Tea Party aimed its anger primarily at government while at least for the time being, OWS is aiming its anger at the bankers.

    Come to think of it, one interesting difference between the Tea Party crowd and OWS is that TPM griped largely about matters that really didn’t effect them on a personal level. “They’re coming to take our guns” (didn’t happen). “They’re going to raise our taxes” (didn’t happen). “The Fed is too big. Let’s go back to the Founding Fathers”. Very ideological stuff that had very little to do with their day to day lives (perhaps another reason why they were accused of ulterior motives like simply being anti-Obama).

    OWS on the other hand has a very personal gripe. “We can’t find a f*cking job after investing time and money into an education that was supposed to prepare us for the job market. And through all this, the top 1% is sitting pretty.”

    I think you can’t hear the message because you’re so preoccupied with the messengers.

  135. All my utilities and bills are current, so STFU.

    😯 Why Poolman. I think you’re bent.

    You come in here from the start, an obnoxious bohunk, rat and punk, idiocy galore, tell your tales of woe, a Jew hater, hypocrite and heretical Pharisee, with insidious charges and conspiracy theories that would make a pandering TV evangelist blush, try and fail to pull my strings and expose my anonymity, and then wonder why I make fun of you?

    Listen up Brick. You belong with Chatty Kitchen. You deserve to be mocked some more.

    Here’s a damn atheist forced to come to my conclusions.

    Now you can kiss my ass Jethro. 🙂

  136. Come to think of it, one interesting difference between the Tea Party crowd and OWS is that TPM griped largely about matters that really didn’t effect them on a personal level.

    Oh right.

    The government borrowing money (which has to be paid back with interest) to do things it shouldn’t be doing (which expands its power over each and every one of us) and enacting new and even more expensive entitlements, along with new taxes on individuals and business in order to partially pay for it doesn’t affect any of those Tea Partiers at all.
    :eyeroll:

    The next time you pull your head out of your ass, make sure to wipe the shit out of your eyes. It is really impairing your vision.

  137. Lunacy of OWS stooges protestors:

    B of A charging $5/month to use a debit card?

    DIE you greedy corporate bastards!

    NYU charging $200,000 for a BA in Patriarchal Loathing?

    Hell YEAH, we’re skipping classes today to rage against greedy corporate bastards!

  138. What kind of a mentality does it take to make this kind of an observation?

    Tea Party crowd and OWS is that TPM griped largely about matters that really didn’t effect them on a personal level.

    Since when did an additional $35,500 in debt per family and counting not affect on a personal level?

    Did one of you guys pick up the bill, pay it, and not tell me?

  139. OWS on the other hand has a very personal gripe. “We can’t find a f*cking job after investing time and money into an education that was supposed to prepare us for the job market.

    Sounds to me like they are on the wrong peoples’ lawns.

    They ought to be protesting the professors and guidance counselors who told them that those courses in Wymyn’s Studies and Communist Dialectics would land them that cush job giving them the Life of Reilly at graduation…especially when they charged rates that outstripped inflation for it. GREEEEEEDDDDDDD!!!111!!!eleventy!!!

    And through all this, the top 1% is sitting pretty.

    You have a point, but if the people of Taxachusetts want to give Jean F’in Kerre’ a bye on his yacht tax evasion and don’t have any outrage for the limousine libs who are all for making other people pay more, but haven’t made a single voluntary additional payment to the US Tresury, or better yet, their local food kitchen in order to assuage their guilt, then I can’t help you, R.

  140. “Come to think of it, one interesting difference between the Tea Party crowd and OWS is that TPM griped largely about matters that really didn’t effect them on a personal level.”

    R, if stupid were a crime you’d be put to death. What you said is as intellectually meaningless as your comments in the wake of the Tucson shooting.

    Please got Gorillas blog and defend your points. I think he tore you to pieces.

    Please. The guy with the bullhorn t the ATlanta OWS protest called and said you can shut the fuck up now Rutherford. We’ll take it from here.

    And 50 boneheads repeated it verbatim . . .

  141. “That makes all of us (including the post’s author) hypocrites.” -Rutherford

    Well, yeah.The hypocrisy of someone or some behavior is usually a circular argument. So is the accusation of racism. Immorality. I probably could go on.

  142. I’m a little astonished that the “free college education” demand wasn’t a hoax.

    The price of a college education is dizzying, I’ll grant you. It’s a palpable weight of your shouders.

    Rabbit teaches young’ins, yes? Does anyone here teach at the college level? I don’t recall that anyone does…

    Students today – now there’s a topic for you.

    It is interesting, perhaps even ironic, to hear people expressing a desire to see things return to the good old days. Different this time?

  143. “I’m a little astonished that the “free college education” demand wasn’t a hoax.”

    Muffy, have you seen the actual demands? Someone had them posted here. They include a demand that banks “forgive all indebtedness.” No shit.

  144. Yes, Tigre. I initially thought that the list was Tex’s sense of humor. And that’s no shit either.

    “That’s who we’re creating.” I love Judge Judy. 🙂

  145. The Judge Judy was a little off-topic I was just directed to it in an email and it reminded me of something Rutherford said about those NJ Guidos in the reality show to the effect of “I’ll bet you they vote republican.”

    Gee, I wonder how many of the disappointed-I-didn’t-receive-Obama-bucks are at the OWS rallies. Those would be the ones that refer to themselves as the 99%.

    (according to R I am part of the 1% along with about 65% of the country — liberal math :lol:).

  146. “why someone calling out racism is called a racist” is because it’s not dependent on who said it first. When you rely on someone else’s race as the determinative factor of whether they are a racist (rather than motivated by something different), why isn’t that racism in itself? Like accusing someone of being a racist because they don;t support a liberal agenda or. . . Obama since he’s black (superior trait for a president don’t you know)?

    Why it wasn;t all that long ago and G-chin were calling me a racist without knowing anything about me — proved by my use of the term “black community.”

  147. When you rely on someone else’s race as the determinative factor of whether they are a racist (rather than motivated by something different),

    The only valid ground for calling someone a racist is if they say or do something blatantly racist, regardless of what their race is.

    Criticizing Obama’s policies is not racist. Carrying a sign with Obama with a bone through his nose is. It’s actions and words. Not very difficult to understand.

    What amuses me is when blatant racism is called out, the new defensive posture of the 21st century is to call the accuser a racist. Wild stuff.

  148. Rutherford,

    Did you notice how lame the response was? Arab treatment of women is almost as bad as us killing “hundreds of thousands in Afghanistan.”

    Do you really take people like that seriously? That’s like asking Poolman to manage your personal finances. 🙂

  149. $70,000 right down the sewer. 😆 That boy should be stoned.

    Now multiply that by the number of people at OWS, and you can begin to understand why we are $14.3 trillion dollars in debt with little or nothing to show for it.

    Brainless, clueless, and an Obama voter x 2. What a couple of thieving monsters….typical of the liberal crowd.

  150. So, let me get this straight. I want to make sure I understand a few of the positions.

    The reason Big Banks bet trillions on the notion that sub prime mortgage bonds were rock solid AAA was because they were strong armed by ideologically leftist lawyers?

    As for the “evil” hedge funds, who do you think managed them?

    What are you guys, a bunch of RINOs?

    If the market was skewed so badly from ACORN tyranny, why did shorting the MBS market pay 100 to 1 or much more?

    I will answer that for you. There was a calculated bet that the entire casino was Teflon. Nanny would never let it fail.

    Doesn’t that make you free market enthusiasts sick to your stomach?

    No doubt, there was gross negligence, as well. Tons of it.

    You know how when you are talking this financial shit and finding yourself repeatedly re-reading what a certain MBS is? Don’t worry about it. Some of the bonus cashing execs often times didn’t have a clue what they were either.

    These are the FUCKING MORONS your government ensured wouldn’t fail.

    In some cases, these bonds were being sold to pension funds by the same bank that was shorting the shit out of them. G.S. was one of the few big banks that actually got smart about shit right before it blew up and ensued ripping people off.

    How fucked up is that?

    Many of the bond holders did not receive bail outs. Actually, almost all of them who were not Big Banks (excluding Fannie bonds) got screwed.They are now suing due to the con job they got on AAA bonds. Countrywide/BAC actually got busted by the SEC for fucking people over. Don’t worry. Justice was served. Angelo Mozilo paid back a few million of his 300 million dollar bonus.

    http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2009/2009-129.htm

    As for my role in all of this. i walked away a couple years AFTER TARP. You are more then welcome to judge me, but I didn’t cause the melt down, I reacted to it. I assure you this, my strategy would have been different had there been no bail out. But, then again, there would have been a market driven incentive to do so.

  151. Take it to the streets Rabbit. The OWS is there for you! Stick to to them! 😆

    Seriously, it’s not judging you. The banks suck. But to link your personal mortgage crisis to anything you’ve said is a non sequitur. Rutherford level economics. You couldn’t afford to service the debt you took on. It sucks. Who won? Nobody.

    A majority of the banks that made the risk no longer exist. Chances are Wells Fargo didn’t originate your loan. Bailouts and loan guarantees on the tax payer’s dime are an outrage. Fuck them The bank’s made bets — and lost. American auto manufacturers did too. They should topple. I say that and my brother is a GM exec.

    Capitalism is the epitome of Darwinism which is why it’s feared by the left. No body’s sucking the bank’s dicks. It’s just picking the right battles. R doesn’t get hat because everything’s fucking morality play to the left. Fairness to them means nobody loses when in fact everybody loses.

    Don’t take it personally. You’re right, but that doesn’t mean we’re wrong.

  152. Forget about me for a moment. I’m a expedient dirt bag who walks with his head high in the temporal world.

    I ask again. If the market was so strong armed, why did shorting the MBS world pay so well?

    OWS are fringe weirdos. We don’t need half thought out narratives to separate ourselves from them, do we?

    To be honest, I’m starting to get the feel that you usually very informed dudes don’t have an understanding of what happened.

    You heard, although don’t really understand, that the left loosened the loan requirements. This is very true. But, this is only a piece of the puzzle.

    Repeat. Why was so much money bet on the bonds if the tranches were made up of reluctant loans, strong armed by ACORN?

    100 to 1 odds that this stink bomb explodes. 100 to 1. Why was that?

    Your starting to remind me of…ok I won’t go there. You are not shitting on cop cars.

  153. Thank you for the concern, Rutherford.

    I am great, just really busy with school right now.

    I am not actually teaching any sections, I just do some substituting and give presentations to classes every once in a while. Most of the interaction I have with students is indirect, as in grading exams and papers.

  154. Obama is your man Poolman. If you don’t like his policies, you got nobody to blame but yourself. Millions of rubes pulled the trigger for this incompetent community organizer in 2008, and now we are all suffering for his gross incompetence. Obama is surrounded with lightweight academicians with absolutely no private enterprise experience and failed theories. Doesn’t take Albert Einstein to see what is wrong. We’ve got Professors Houndstooth and Combover selling the proverbial cash for clunker lemons off the lot. Now it’s time to close their business and run them out of town.

    But the one thing Obama hasn’t been incompetent at is pulling out the guns on the thugs. Power to him. Show no mercy and carry a big stick is the Tex Manifesto. Terrorize the terrorists.

    As far as Iran goes, I wish Obama would target Mahmoud with a Predator and use him for target practice. For over 30 years, this little banana nosed dick has been stabbing us and spitting in our face, including being one of the instigators of the Iranian hostage crisis – it’s 30 years past due we blow his ass to hell. I’d ring Mahmoud’s door bell with hellfire missile, with the message to the Mullahs, clean up your act or you’re next on the list.

    We need to let them know in no uncertain terms, get your head squared away or we won’t attack your country – we are coming to get you at a time of our choosing, and then do it.

    Give Mahmoud the head’s up to be sleeping with one eye open.

    These drones are the best weapon we’ve developed in a long time. We need to take advantage of our technology while there is still time. Don’t go after the useful idiots – go after the thug leadership at a time of our choosing.

  155. “Carrying a sign with Obama with a bone through his nose is.”

    Not if that sign is equating him with a witch-doctor to make a point about his health care policies.

    I guess nuance and context aint what it used to be.

  156. I doubt this Iranian thing goes as high up chain as we would like everyone to believe.

    They are a lot of things over in Iran, but stupid isn’t one of them. And this was certainly stupid.

    I put my money on some rouge elements within the government structure as opposed to policy from the top-tier.

    The fact that we are hearing about it from Holder, who would love nothing more than to be doing ANYTHING else than answering about F&F, and not Napolitano or Panetta, who should be the ones talking about a homeland security/national defense issue, also gives rise to suspicion.

  157. ” You couldn’t afford to service the debt you took on.”-T

    Well, we decided that my wife would be a stay home mom and that keeping our end of the bargain wasn’t worth the sacrifice considering the depreciation of the collateral, the baby boy and the government protection the bank already secured, thanks to the tax payer.

    So, in essence, what I did was much worse then what you said.

    In normal times, we would have just sold and down sized. In these times we walked (thanks in part to riding out the Silver bubble) and upsized.

    I now have money to save, money to play the market, money to arm myself, long term food storage etc. (Don’t laugh)

    I’m going to be able to send my kids to Catholic School.

    Best decision I’ve ever made.

    Plus, the minute we had the freedom for my wife to put her two weeks in, they allowed her to work from home.

    Its like everything fell perfectly in place.

  158. Want my take on MBS Rabbit? More a theory of human nature than any technical aspects. Nothing complex. This is basic, but just so you’ll know where I stand in case you think I’m taking shots.

    Congress screwed up by loosening the rules on home buying and encouraged millions who had no business by their home to buy their vote. That was their avenue to real power. We can argue about the when and the who, but government played lenient guardian. They share a large part of the blame, especially men like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, the latter actually somebody that should be in prison. They added to the problem with cronyism linked to the mortgage bankers – many of these home lenders were tied to the political contribution hip making millions for 30 pieces of Congressional silver and a wink. And I’ll assure when the dam burst, they weren’t standing behind the dam like we were.

    With the leniency, greed took over on both lending and consumer side, premised on a false assumption. That is, that housing prices would always go up, though I find it hard to believe that people like Robert Rubin didn’t realize that. That was a fool’s game – a pyramid scheme.

    Really not much different than the tech bubble years previous. Companies with book values of billions and no form of cash flow? Negative P/E’s and 200% growth in capital valuation? Oh, it got Clinton his “surplus” and led for a time to incredible uptick in the late 90s, but when the bubble burst, the shit rolled downhill and cratered the market. The real estate fiasco was the second shoe to drop, and this time, unlike the tech bubble, we couldn’t recoup from that quick a turnaround. We can’t spend our way out of this one, and that was an idiot request from Bush to do so.

    Obama has made it worse with his Keynesian intervention. We’re so damn dumb, we have allowed the same people that helped put us in this mess, to try and get us out of this mess. Not going to happen and Congress isn’t the answer.

    Look, I know millions of the people under water are honest and had no idea they were about to get burned. Guys like you were victims of a sort. Big banking is inept and corrupt, and they are now demonstrating that in spades. They deserve to have their asses kicked and I hope they burn. On that, we all can agree. You got caught in the wake when the dam collapsed and nobody was there to throw you a line. They threw you a rock. Other guys like Rutherford played it straight and got burned too.

    But guys, there is a lesson to be learned here for all of us. When something looks to good to be true, it is. My wife and I were both pulling in over $100K a year before I left the corporate world, and that is pretty good money for Tulsa, OK, when you add the two incomes together. And we couldn’t afford many of these homes I saw 25 year olds buying – many of them with two Lexus sitting in the garage and a swing set in the backyard. For 10 years, I couldn’t figure out how people were doing it. How could they come up with $100K for collateral? I thought maybe rich parents. Or so I thought.

    Now I know how they were doing it. People are indebted to the hilt with absolutely no asset backing.

    So who do you blame for people living on the edge?

    I cast blame all the way around and am pissed at myself for not being smart enough to capitalize on the precipitous drop for the second time in less than 10 years. If I can figure out how to short higher education, I will. And it burns my ass that those that enriched themselves on the backs of millions of us have slinked away without so much as a kick in the ass.

    But the OWS people are letting those bastards off the hook, are, and that is where I draw the line and become very suspicious of their motives. If they’re going to protest, they need include everyone involved in the shenanigans. And where is the call for personal responsibility?

    This may sound hateful, but the real people who got burned in this whole charade are people like me who took 15 year mortgages and live in a modest house which we could afford. And we get to pay for everybody else without so much as a thanks, or I’m sorry. And I got to admit, my sympathy level is running on empty.

    Greed, all the way around. Easy money. Herd mentality. Something for nothing. It’s high time for people to start living within their means and start planning for the unexpected.

    It’s really as simple as that.

  159. Don’t know D.R. But if your financial brother figures it out, let me know and I’ll split the proceeds. I wish I could figure out how to short Congress. 🙂 I know they are going down.

    You’re a smart man to send your kid(s) to a private school. You won’t regret it when they head to college. Don’t worry about today and plan for tomorrow. Hope your wife is doing well.

    You know what my goal in life has become Rabbit? I want to die knowing that I gave my children every opportunity to be something and learn to be content, and leave them a little something so that they have absolutely no debt when I’m gone. The rest is up to them. My wife and kids have become my life – everything else is secondary. My relationship with my children is so different than the relationship I had with my father. I’m involved and my joy comes from their joy.

    It’s hard to believe how much happier your life becomes when you and your mate are close and best friends, and she becomes your partner, and you lower your expectation to family and friends. If I could offer you any advice as older brother, don’t make the same mistakes I did. Treat your job only as a means to an end and never let it interfere with your life. This bill of goods about the American Dream? It’s a facade. You need a place to live, food to eat, enough money to pay for the basics and your kids’ joys, and a few hobbies to keep your mind active – and most importantly, your relationships.

    I may live like a pauper now compared to what I used to, but there is never a day that I feel depressed about not owning a bigger house, or driving a fancy car, or even becoming a successful businessman. And I mean that. I feel blessed 99% of the time. And I would love to tell you I was smart enough to have figured that out all by myself, but it happened almost by accident.

  160. Tex, I know Wiki is not authoritative but here it is regarding Mahmoud:

    “Shortly after being elected president, some western media outlets published claims that Ahmadinejad was among the students who stormed the US embassy in Tehran, sparking the Iran hostage crisis. This claim has been denied by the Iranian government, the Iranian opposition as well as a CIA investigation on the matter. [Emphasis added by me]”

  161. How could they come up with $100K for collateral? I thought maybe rich parents. Or so I thought.

    LOL Tex you must have been eavesdropping on the Lawson household.

    I used to marvel at how my neighbors in my old neighborhood could afford a second house and all these expensive vacations. My wife would say what you said …. “they must have rich parents” cos I knew damn well they weren’t making THAT much money. And that in itself started to piss me off. There I was laid off and scraping every last dime together to pay the mortgage and these motherf*ckers were living the high life just one layoff away from being just like me …. but of course they didn’t get laid off and they could keep up the charade. My guess, similar to what you said, is they were in debt up to their eyeballs.

    And while I knew it was wrong and hateful to wish a layoff upon any of them, it did sicken me just how much just seeing them at my kids bus stop reminded me of my bad fortune. Probably another good reason to move out. Truth be told, now I’m living where I should be living for the income I’ve got. The charade is over for me.

  162. I want to die knowing that I gave my children every opportunity to be something and learn to be content

    But here’s the question Tex … just how much opportunity will your kids have in a corporate owned society? Fortunately you have two smart girls. They’ll figure something out. But don’t you feel the least bit melancholy that they will likely struggle more than you did, not less?

  163. Huck, good to hear from you. Your ears must have started ringing when I wondered aloud about you earlier in the thread. 🙂

    Regarding the witch-doctor theme … ok I get the health care tie in but the optics were at best ambiguous. If your kid was going to the rally and wanted to make that point, and showed you a sign with Obama with a bone through his nose, might you not say “ha, funny sign and I get the Obamacare mocking but it might also make some people think you’re calling Obama a primitive African. Might be better to have a sign more to the point and less likely to be misinterpreted.”

    You see, that was one of my gripes with the TPM that even with the best of intentions they just didn’t give a damn about optics. If it looked racist, tough sh*t cos “that’s not what I meant.” Well that standard just ain’t good enough for me. Sorry.

  164. The only valid ground for calling someone a racist is if they say or do something blatantly racist, regardless of what their race is.” – R

    R, you cannot even live by your own standard. You’ve never once shown blatant racism from the Tea Party. Period. Even on your witch-doctor meme, you’re waffling because you know its BS. Same thing on the Lion poster.

    We’ve shown specific, blatant example of racism from the OWS movement. Specific anti-semitic posters and rants.

    So, as the guy who lives and dies by the race card around here, please explain the difference between racism towards blacks and racism towards Jews. Why is it OK for OWS to make blatant anti-Semitic posters and comments? You will bend over backwards to fabricate the slightest inkling of what could possibly be construed as racist by folks desperately looking for racism to discredit a movement, but you will totally ignore blatant racism so you can desperately legitimize a movement.

    I’m impressed R. This kind of ideological hypocrisy would make my stomach turn like nothing else, and you pull it off without a hitch.

  165. Brian Phillips is the head of communications for the NYC General Assembly, the group primarily responsible for occupying Wall Street. I learned about him while listening to National Public Radio’s “Morning Edition.” According to NPR, Phillips is “an ex-Marine with a bachelor’s in computer science. Today he is wearing a sock on his head.”

    “My political goal,” Phillips says, “is to overthrow the government.

    Note: That’s not some random nut job pulled from his Lyndon LaRouche desk or tricked-out refrigerator box/time machine. That’s the communications director for the whole shebang, and his goal is to overthrow the government.

    Tell us once again R how these guys are just like the Tea Party…

  166. “A majority of the banks that made the risk no longer exist.”-T

    What do you mean by that?”

    Rabbit, the origination of high-risk loans and the bundling them (to support the falsely valued MBS market) are not necessarily the same institutions. So perhaps were speaking different languages at the moment.

    In any event, how many large consumer (deposit) mortgage lending banks went under were acquired after the 2008 crash? Tons. Look at all of the consolidation (facilitated mostly by the forced-feeding of TARP funds). For example, the ubiquitous Green and White Wachovia signs and yellow and red RBI no longer adorn our skyline.

    Now, I don’t know what the banking world looks like in MI, but the Community banks down here that financed the majority of residential (and commercial) development was obliterated.

    So I guess I don’t “get” your confusion. An enormous portion of the banking world was devastated in 2008.

  167. First things first. The Iranian gov’t and the CIA may deny Ahmadinejad’s pictures from 1979 for political expediency, but five of the hostages taken will not. They insist that they met or saw Little Mahmoud 8-10 times during their captivity. If it were only one, I might say. “Okay, mistaken identity.” But not five of them. I think we denied Ahmadinejad’s involvement because it was politically less risky – but I suspect our leaders believe the little prick was involved. They deny with a wink – I admit, I have no further proof; just a sneaking suspicion.

    ————-

    just how much opportunity will your kids have in a corporate owned society? Fortunately you have two smart girls. They’ll figure something out. But don’t you feel the least bit melancholy that they will likely struggle more than you did, not less?

    I believe a lot more opportunity than in a gov’t owned society, where political connections are all that matter. But you’ll note, I didn’t push my kids toward strict corporate business. They both chose the health field. As a physician, I hope my oldest has more autonomy than I did. And she will if government keeps their inept fingers out of the mix.

    You got to remember Rutherford. My case may be different from yours. Your parents are more formally educated than my parents. My mother, from whom what brains I’ve got, I received – and though salutatorian of a large high school class, only went to college for one year to put my father through college. She had me at 20. I consider my dad less than average intelligence and left in a perpetual state of arrested development from a horrific childhood. He didn’t teach me a thing of note, and though it is somewhat embarrassing to admit, was not a good father. I try to honor him not out of love, but respect for my mother’s wishes and my God. What I know mechanically, technically and of the world, I learned either through the school of hard knocks or experimentation. I consider my childhood pretty unhappy; not materially, but without leadership or direction. My mother was a driving influence for my spiritually I admit – and for that, I am forever grateful. She was a good mother. But she couldn’t cover as father too.

    My children had the benefit of two older, college educated parents. They went without nothing, attended the best schools, have traveled the world, had both parents actively involved in their life, and are much more worldly in a good way at a similar age than I was. And they are both better adjusted and more loving than I will ever be. My only concern to be honest, besides the world itself, is are they tough enough to handle the adversity the world will lay upon them? I tried. But let’s face it – a parent can only do so much.

    So no, I expect my two children to struggle less, certainly emotionally, unless the world grows so dreary they are caught up in the mess. I know both had wonderful childhoods, because it was important to their parents and I asked them for an honest answer. It was very important to me. With a mother like they have, they were fortunate, as my wife special. Yes, I know I see through rose colored glasses, but I also know class acts and wise people. She is a rarity.

    Sorry this was so long and so personal. But it was required to answer your question.

  168. R asks, “[J]ust how much opportunity will your kids have in a corporate owned society?”

    Aren’t you required to answer what opportunity should be expected from a state-run society before asking that loaded question?

  169. Rabbit, I am working off about 3 hours sleep, so it’s most probably my ability to comprehend at the moment. But I have read your #230 several times and can’t for the life of me follow what you’re saying. as R said, “help a brotha’ out.”

    And half thought out narratives are all Rutherford has managed to offer in support of his bizarro “hypocrisy” argument.

  170. “…why someone calling out racism is called a racist. I don’t get it.” -Rutherford

    The act itself (calling out racism) isn’t racist. I wasn’t aware that it was fashionable to call such a person racist in return.

    I was referring to the hypocrisy of calling out the hypocrisy of another group, while such hypocrisy exists within the group to which the accuser belongs. I thought you were making that point with your post.

    I went a step further in suggesting that it was the same with racism.

    I don’t know that racism (and hypocrisy) is generally a group thing anyway. There are a lot more individual racists than there are members of any racist groups. Yes there are groups whose members are tied to each other as racists, but as far as I know only one Senator ever belonged to such a group. Maybe some of the Tea Party candidates did also? I don’t recall that, but I could be wrong. So to call out the supposed racism of the Tea Party as a group makes no sense to me, regardless of the strength or weakness of the idiosyncratic examples.

    Interpreting and using what Sharron Angle said very publicly to a roomful of children as example that the Tea Party is a racist group is bogus unless you haven’t heard what Harry Reed or Biden themselves have said. And it’s bogus unless you truly believe that deep down Sharon Angle articulated in her remarks that she thinks that she is worth more as a person than any of the children she was speaking to. I just don’t see evidence of that.

    ~~~

    “Sorry this was so long and so personal.” -Tex

    I don’t mind, personally. 🙂

  171. Huck. it’s a bit frustrating to have a reasonable issue of racial misunderstanding answered by an absurd example of using white paper in a nursery school.

    Are you really saying that because we have become hypersensitive about race (I agree, we have) the answer should be a complete pendulum swing in the other direction and throw all caution and decorum to the wind?

    If you really think that “let’s not use white paper because it promotes the idea that white is good” is the same as “maybe we shouldn’t caricature the first black POTUS as an African witch doctor” rise to the same level of reasonableness, then there’s no bridging the gap in this conversation.

  172. You’ve never once shown blatant racism from the Tea Party.

    G, you’re wrong, plain and simple. I didn’t waffle on the witch doctor meme. I gave the benefit of the doubt that the Obamacare mockery was the real intent … but the sign was racist because it could EASILY be interpreted as racist regardless of the intent. If Obama had been promoting agricultural subsidies and the Tea Party had a sign showing him picking cotton in the fields …. I don’t give a flying f*ck that it spoofs agri subsidies … it portrays Obama as a slave .. it is racist. (I know that didn’t happen … I’m making up the example since you have a thick head regarding why a black man or woman might have been offended by the witch doctor poster.)

    As for the Lyin’ African … he was compared to an animal, first. Second his heritage was tossed in the mix … so you don’t want to call it racist… call it xenophobic if that makes you sleep better at night. On top of that it feeds into the notion Obama is an African (dog whistle “Kenyan”) and not an American. Can you spell birther?

    G, I don’t know whether you are truly a racially insensitive lout or you’re just being willfully stupid. I’ve grown to respect you in a number of areas so I strongly suspect it’s the latter. 😐

  173. “but the sign was racist because it could EASILY be interpreted as racist regardless of the intent.”

    Sorry dude. This is where you’re wrong. Intent is everything. A charge of racism resting solely on the one claiming to be offended is not racism. Period.

  174. I’m sorry you missed my point.

    Which was….there is always going to be someone who sees racism in something. If we stop doing or saying things because someone might see it as racists, we aren’t left with much.

    If the race card wasn’t overused…like forcing Hallmark to recall cards because it says “black hole” or to fine a woman who called black kids climbing her trees “little monkeys,” then you might have a point.

    But this shit is out of control. EVERYTHING is racist…either blatantly, or through a “dog whistle.”

    It cheapens the word and makes it impossible to be careful in avoiding the perception of it.

  175. G, I like your careful editing. Also from the Jonah Goldberg article:

    “Now, he’s not advocating violence or dictatorship. No, he just wants the government to work on the same non-hierarchical, consensus-based, extremely deliberative form of direct democracy that they’re using down in Liberty Plaza. How that would work for some 300 million Americans remains a bit of a mystery.”

    So obviously his use of the word “overthrow” was careless. He really wants an overhaul. And why is that so unusual? There are loads of folks who have talked about tweaking the way government works. Some (I happen to be one) would love to see the President take questions weekly from the House of Representatives in the same manner as British Common Questions Time. Others, Rick Perry for example, would like to see Senators appointed by the States and not elected.

    You seize on the word “overthrow” to scare everyone. Pure B.S.

  176. Hey Rutherford, you’re right about the signs IMO. They are racist signs if the signholder is lying about the intent, or at the very least racially insensitive if they are speaking the truth.

    I suppose someone in the crowd ought to have objected, maybe even wrestled the sign away from the person. I’ve only been balsy enough to do something like that once in my life and it involved grabbing an umbrella away from a woman who had stolen it from this poor guy’s seat at a Brewers game when he and his buddy went to get a bratwurst.

    People just don’t intervene enough I guess 🙂

    I passed by a few ugly signs around here at the time. Not many, but they were there. In all honesty the setups seemed like a lone wolf kind of thing. Selling buttons and whatnot. They did not seem sanctioned by the peaceful protests scheduled at the time. And this is in the heart of Chicago, liberal heaven, signs with Obama as Hitler, etc. I can imagine that there were similar incidents all over the country. What’s to be done about it?

    I tend to attribute the signs to interlopers to the movements, kind of like Emenem up there on youTube.

  177. G, the vid of the woman being attacked is a shame. Why the racial spin on it? You know black on black crime outnumbers black on white crime. And it appears (sadly) that this woman’s mental capacity factored more into the attack than her race.

    You know I’m beginning to worry about you. As vile as you find Poolman, your obsession with reverse racism makes me think you a prime candidate for a white supremacist group any day now. You need to get over it. Maybe you’ve just seen too many people of color (in this case, I’m referring to Afghans) f*cking with Americans and it has warped your mind.

    The military is full of patriotic stand-up black folk. Go hang with them for a bit to take your mind off what goes on in the street.

  178. Tigre,

    I’m saying the MBS market would have reflected loans that were strong armed.

    Let’s say banks were, in fact, strong armed into making so many bad loans.

    Do you really think this would be such a secret that the “odds” would be skewed so far in the favor of people who shorted the credit default swaps and other derivatives?

    Imagine if the NBA was threatened by lawyers to put more short, fat white guys on the Lakers.

    Don’t you think the spread on Lakers games would reflect this reality when they play the Celtics?

    The only way the spread wouldn’t reflect the new fat white guy Laker team is if there was an expectation the game would be fixed from the start!

    We can be PC all we want. The market shouldn’t lie.

    In the case of the housing melt down, the odds of those bonds going belly up did not reflect what you guys are saying. Hence, the hedge funds that bet the housing collapse were owed a shit load of money!

    For a year or two, there were literally only 4 or 5 guys in the whole country interested in shorting the market. They would get laughed at during hedge fund conventions.

    I’m saying that gross negligence by executives and the expectation that Nanny would intervene on behalf of the casino skewed the market.

    That is the very definition of diseased Capitalism.

    I know people who have lost over 80 percent of their home value because of diseased Capitalism. They have every right to be angry serfs.

  179. Sorry this was so long and so personal. But it was required to answer your question.

    No apology necessary and I do see your point. Interestingly, I don’t consider myself half the father my father was. I grew up moving from an apartment to a house. My daughter is growing up, moving from a house to an apartment. If there is an afterlife, I fully expect an ass-whupping from my mother when I arrive, for the way things are turning out. Hopefully before my time comes, I can turn things around. 😐

  180. “…you’re right about the signs IMO.” -me, redfaced

    Uh, IMO you’re wrong about them if you are saying tht regardless of the intent, the signs are racist.

    Evidently I have a reading comprehension issue. Sorry fellas. You’re doing fine. 🙂 Please continue.

  181. So to call out the supposed racism of the Tea Party as a group makes no sense to me, regardless of the strength or weakness of the idiosyncratic examples.

    On that Muffy, you and I agree.

    I suppose what I would’ve liked from the Tea Party is a bit more repudiation of its more idiosyncratic members. But hey …. no one in the OWS crowd as far as I can tell is repudiating its more idiosyncratic members. So I guess fair is fair.

  182. Rabbit, that was the bundling that allowed the ratings to be manipulated. Credit default swaps recognized just that — credit default. So you’re right. The market knew (at least the sophisticated MBS market did). But your ability to service your debt wasn’t related to anything you’ve said. Your expectations that your property would appreciate did.

    Ever seen this?

    https://docs.google.com/present/view?skipauth=true&pli=1&id=ddp4zq7n_0cdjsr4fn

    It’s too dumbed down to fully explain, but I do think it’s helpful to set up what happened in an extremely complex transactional racket.

    Anyway, I don’t think were in disagreement at all. I am no defender of banks. I thought I had made that clear. In fact I used to represent them and now they’re my preferred defendant.

  183. A charge of racism resting solely on the one claiming to be offended is not racism. Period.

    Nope. Perception is reality my friend. So the question comes down to, is the perception evidence of some psychosis as might be argued of someone who is offended by a sheet of white drawing paper? Or is the perception coming from a reasonable person of sound mind?

    If you love you up some Jews big time … if Jews are your favorite bunch of people … and you call every Jew you meet a kike, your intent ain’t worth sh*t and you’ll probably have very few Jewish friends.

    Get my point?

    Hell, do you think people whom YOU would judge as racist consider themselves racist? Self perception has not a damn thing to do with it.

  184. “Hundred bucks it is Thor….straight up. Want to let Rutherford handle the transaction?”-Tex

    Sure, but we better get his consent before we make him window 3 at Emerald Downs. (That reference was for you, BIW)

  185. “I suppose what I would’ve liked from the Tea Party is a bit more repudiation of its more idiosyncratic members.” -Rutherford

    That’s entirely reasonable.

    ~~~

    “Racism and racial insensitivity are not the same thing.” -Tigre

    Good point. I forget that.

  186. “If Obama chooses not to run, you lose that one too and still owe me the hundred bucks. Got to cover all the bases with Obama loyalists.” – Tex

    I’m surprised that possibility concerns you. It’s not like we’re talking about … Sarah Palin. 🙂

  187. I’m sorry you missed my point.

    Oh believe me, I get your point. The “white paper” and the hallmark card are examples of racial sensitivity gone haywire. My only point is we mustn’t let the overuse of the charge of racism blunt our ability to call it out when we see it and when it really is there.

    I think what we can agree on is that having a chip on your shoulder such that you are looking for racism in everything you see, makes it very difficult to recognize a racist message when it really is there. Call it the boy who cried wolf syndrome. (Who you callin’ boy? That’s racist! 🙂

  188. Sorry dude. This is where you’re wrong. Intent is everything. A charge of racism resting solely on the one claiming to be offended is not racism. Period.

    Reminds me of the Chimp cartoon discussion at Chen’s where I first encountered R….which is all I need to know about his clear intent to NEVER, EVER let go of his “right” to be offended.

    ________________________________________________________
    Some (I happen to be one) would love to see the President take questions weekly from the House of Representatives in the same manner as British Common Questions Time.

    Have youever been present for Question Period in a Parliamentary system? NO, of course not, how silly of me. I did it every day for a month in Ottawa in 1993. It was never about the answers. It was about trying to find clever ways to call the person you were asking the question of a liar without actually using the word. While it gave me a chance to practice my French by listening to the French translations (when they were not asked it french, I can assure you, they were neither informative, or even especially clever.

    Others, Rick Perry for example, would like to see Senators appointed by the States and not elected.

    How silly of him. He’d like to restore the original design, which would give the STATES their voice back in the federal government and by necessity, act as a curb on federal power…which is nowhere near as thoughtless or ill-concieved as eliminating the electoral college, or anacting other measures to increase direct democracy in the federal government.

  189. Racism and racial insensitivity are not the same thing.

    Mmmm, now we might be getting somewhere. So you agree that racial insensitivity can easily lead to a charge of racism, albeit a misguided one?

  190. BiW, I’ve never been present at a basketball game but I can still comment on the action as viewed from my TV. So yes, I’m basing my preference on what I’ve seen of TV coverage of Common Questions Time. You may be right that it amounts to nothing in the end, but to me it forces dialog between the President and our elected representatives in front of a TV camera where there is some accountability for what is said.

    Let’s say you and the others on this board are right that Obama is in way over his head. Don’t you think that would become obvious to most Americans (more than the current 51% who think he’s doing a bad job) if every week they saw him hem and haw in front of the House?

    “which would give the STATES their voice back”

    Huh? The Senators are selected by the people of the states they represent. How in heaven’s name does this undercut the States having a voice?

  191. All you fans of this grass-roots movement can yell and scream until your faces turn blue. Until the Tea Party movement finds a leader and forgoes free-floating anxiety in favor of a well articulated platform, they will remain an entertaining and sometimes disturbing sideshow.” – R, Could a Little Sanity Kill the Tea Parties

  192. Oh Rutherford, will do anything if I agree to give him half of the proceeds? All he has to do is forward me a check for $50.00. You can make it out to him, and I might even donate the rest of the proceeds for stealing his bandwidth the last three years, assuming I win. Probably the only way I’ll get Rutherford to root against Obama. I’ll pander and buy his vote like the Chicago Dims do. 🙂 They’re not going to give him a hundred bucks.

    Hundred bucks it is. See you at the polls.
    ————-

    Rutherford, you just documented your real problem. Don’t measure your damn worth by your job, or lack thereof. So what? Good grief, I think far more of you than I do of Pfesser, and radiologists are some of the highest paid physicians. I’d take an entire neighborhood of Rutherfords over one Pfesser or Graychin. You moved from a house to an apartment? So what. If you were in NYC, you’d be considered rich.

    I’m certainly not going to measure you by your wealth or education. Your kid will appreciate when grown not for the things you give her, but by the things you teach her and the fact you proved you loved her. Provide her every opportunity you’re capable and love the kid to death. You’ll do far more to make the world a better place doing that, then any vote you can cast, any politician you lend support, or anything you’ll ever accomplish at a job.

    Sounds cliche I know – but it is the truth. I’ve met a lot more successful business folk than I have good parents. They world needs more good parents – not more accumulators of wealth.

  193. Oh believe me, I get your point. The “white paper” and the hallmark card are examples of racial sensitivity gone haywire. My only point is we mustn’t let the overuse of the charge of racism blunt our ability to call it out when we see it and when it really is there.

    And then what?

    Seriously. At some point, doesn’t all the time and effort you spend worrying about someone else having the wrong or incorrect thoughtspeech in their head ultimately say more about you than the people who want to punish because they “offend” you?

    I’m not being flippant about this; I consider it to be the natural extention of the current “hate crimes” craze, through which control freaks, cloaked in self-righteousness, get to determine that some criminal behavior is MORE criminal, based almost exclusively on the identity of the victim. What makes this especially troubling is that it declares the perpetrator guilty of a “crime” for which they are being punished without that pesky necessity of proving their guilt (in this case, intent).

    A continuing obession with race, and continually being offended about it does no one a service. At best, it rewards people who look for and declare their victimhood, and may cause someone, who is completely innocent of any bad intent, to self censor. Or, it will lead to an assload of shouting, like the city council meeting where someone correctly used a scientific term to describe the effect of a certain city office. Either way, it wastes time, and serves as a distraction from the issues at hand. Eric Holder had it wrong. (Surprise!): It isn’t that we can’t have an honest discussion about race, it is that we can’t have an honest discussion about ANYTHING, because of the twin terrors of race and victimhood. Think I’m wrong? Disagree with the President on, well, anything. What is the first (or second) thing said in response? “That’s racist!”

    No more. Seriously. No more.

    I’m tired of having to tiptoe around certain people and ethnicities, because they want to build their “victim power” on the back of something I might say. I’m damn tired of being told that I can’t say something that someone else can, based solely on the color of my skin (and theirs). And I’m tired of the childish lengths that we expect each other to go to in order to NOT say something out loud. Fuck “Voldemort”. One of our victim classes has something even more feared.

    I declare my independence from the chokehold the perpertually offended keep trying to put our speech in. If I don’t say the dreaded word it’s because I have no desire to hear the pissing and moaning that will come if I say it. I’m not afraid of the gasps, pointed fingers and “What did you say?: That would result. I’m afraid that the second after I say it, the subject is no longer listening, and if I’m taking the time to be offensive, I damn sure want you paying attention to what I’m saying, because I am aggressively trying to give you a clue.

  194. YESSSS!!! Luke, you have come over to the dark side.

    Not quite – you’ll notice the quote marks. Clinton never had a yearly surplus, though he got close and I can easily prove that. Frankly I’m surprised nobody else has ever called libs on that claim. Even Gingrich claims he was part of the “surplus.” There was no surplus in a calendar year during Slick Willie’s sordid regime.

    I’m just glad you realized that “surplus” was in the form of capital gains revenue and not his tax increases young Jedi. 😉

    But like liberalism, it proved a facade when the truth came out and the dam burst.

  195. Huh? The Senators are selected by the people of the states they represent. How in heaven’s name does this undercut the States having a voice?

    Once again, you demonstrate how your Haaaaavvvaaad education (and your education elsewhere has tragically, and horribly failed you.

    The Senate was never intended to be “the voice of the people.” That’s what the House of Representatives was for. The Senate was to be where the States were represented in the federal government. (Hello? Co-sovereignty?) And having the Senators directly accountable to the State legislatures meant that they were representing the State’s interests, not the “people’s)
    Look at the growth of the federal government…it isn’t an accident that it didn’t really occur until after the passage of the 17th Amendment, nor is it an accident that it also corresponds to increasing federal encroachment into areas not specifically enumerated to it. And if states still had their voice in the federal government, federal law containing expensive and unfunded mandates to the states never would have occurred.

    Seriously, that book I keep urging you to read…The Federalist Papers, not only does a good job explaining this, it also does a fair job explaining why other ideas were rejected.

    Isn’t it long past time for you to get your learning on?

  196. Let’s say you and the others on this board are right that Obama is in way over his head. Don’t you think that would become obvious to most Americans (more than the current 51% who think he’s doing a bad job) if every week they saw him hem and haw in front of the House?

    Rutherford, there is ample evidence of that NOW, and people refuse to see it. I think you’re whistling Dixie on having a question period change that.

    But then, I also find it amusing that someone with no grasp or understanding of how it was set up to begin with, and why has so many opinions on why it needs to be changed, and how to do it. It’s like the five year old who thinks that they should be able to paint over the Rembrandt because they want a picture of a pink pony.

  197. “Nope. Perception is reality my friend.”

    R, that’s so dumb you should be slapped.

    No it’s not.

    Stated differently, I perceive you to be a moron . . .

    (you can complete the thought)

  198. From this : “Perception is reality my friend.”

    To this: “Self perception has not a damn thing to do with it.”

    You went to Harvard?

  199. “It goes beyond hypersensitivity. The accusations of racism is blunt force instrument to many on the left.” – ET

    Maybe Cain will get the nomination and we can put some of this behind us, actually talk about issues. I see he was up over Romney in a poll this morning. I guess when Romney doubled down on TARP the Tea Party was listening, even if MSM let him have a pass.

    “I don’t know that all of you are Latino. Some of you look a little more Asian to me. I don’t know that. [Note: it’s the Hispanic Student Union. The whole room is Hispanic teenagers.] – Sharron Angle, 2010 Tea Party Senate candidate, Nevada.

    Whether you see racism in this or not there’s little doubt that this comment helped Harry keep his Senate seat

  200. I’m afraid that the second after I say it, the subject is no longer listening

    THAT is the ultimate reason to choose ones words wisely so we communicate effectively and not risk distraction. That was my Dad’s big thing about cursing. He has always felt curse words cheapen discourse and show a lazy speaker. Find a good word to express yourself.

    Now onto some other aspects of your f*cking comment. 🙂

    I am not guilty of accusing racism with every criticism of Obama. Maybe some are. I am not. Hell if criticizing Obama made one a racist, I’d be labeling virtually everyone on this board a racist and that is preposterous.

    You seem to be going down the road of “words don’t matter”. I might agree that, screw it, let people say whatever they want to say, what’s the big deal? The question is when do words lead to horrible actions? Our history is NOT one of being kind and decent to black people. So is it any wonder that many hear the N word, or see a questionable poster and fear that lynchings might not be far behind?

    I truly recommend whenever anyone gets their dander up about blacks being too sensitive, to replace ‘black” with “Jew” and see how you feel. We bend over backwards not to appear anti-Semitic and honestly BiW I don’t see you railing against that.

  201. “Of course not. A false accusation of racism is ignorance and slander.”

    Then the verdict is. . . you’re guilty of ignorance and slander.

    (Thanks for making my point).

    Now tell us why that might be if the reason for the accusation is the race of the accused and I’ll know we are getting somewhere.

  202. “So you agree that racial insensitivity can easily lead to a charge of racism, albeit a misguided one?”

    Although that’s a non sequitur, I agree with the premise. Yes.

    (just like your saying saying stupid shit can lead to a charge of stupidity :lol:)

    At least you’re seeing a distinction. Intent. Remember, the thing you said didn’t matter.

  203. BiW I guess I’m thick but I see a distinction without a difference. The States are the people. If a State acting in a co-sovereign fashion to the Fed, calls for policy against its own citizen’ interests, what would happen?

    The only difference I see in the Senate is that States are given an “equal voice” by virtue of having the same number of reps (2) vs the House where more populous states have more representation.

    So I guess I’m suggesting that the two senators per state approach promotes each state to equal standing within the Senate and DOES give each an equal voice. Whether the Senators are voted in by the people or appointed by the legislatures who represent the people, seems to me academic.

  204. You seem to be going down the road of “words don’t matter”.

    No, I’m going down the road of “you continue to let words have power over you.” If Thomas Sowell or Clarance Thomas spent their time obsessing over it when white people called them “niggers” or blacks called them “Uncle Toms” or “Oreos” (leaving asside the cricket chirps from the left and the race hustlers when THOSE ephithets are hurled), do you think they would have had as much time to concentrating on themselves and succeeding IN SPITE of the things being said? How much more time and potential is wasted in finding offense at “black holes”? So why does it happen? Because it is easier than working on oneself. Because its easier to blame someone else for your problems, your foibles, and your failures.

  205. It’s like the five year old who thinks that they should be able to paint over the Rembrandt because they want a picture of a pink pony.

    I can’t speak to Rembrandt but there are a few Picasso’s that deserve to be painted over as a pink pony. 🙂

  206. G, I don’t know whether you are truly a racially insensitive lout or you’re just being willfully stupid. I’ve grown to respect you in a number of areas so I strongly suspect it’s the latter.” – R

    You know what R, you can kiss my white ass.

    You’re a complete fraud when it comes to the issue of race. Period.

    The only thing we know for sure about this incident is that it was one big misunderstanding. Gates’ intent was misunderstood by the 911 caller. The policeman’s intent may have been misunderstood by Gates. Gates’ reaction may have been misunderstood by the police officer. The true intent of all the participants was colored by this cloud of racism that hangs over our world. – R, The Cancer of Racism, 23 July 2009

    Bullshit. Women, protecting her neighbor calls the cops who need to verify that the guys breaking into the house is actually the owner gets a racial tirade from some assclown who makes his living off of perpetuating the racial divide in America.

    Reality-1, Rutherford-0

    Over the past few weeks, I’ve written about the ambiguity of racism in America, the paranoia regarding Barack Obama and the disrespect paid to this President from folks with questionable motives. – R, Obama, Racism and Inevitable Self-Examination, 18 September 2009

    Where you essentially summed up any opposition to Obama to being based on race rather than policy. And by-the-by, Joe Wilson was proven correct. Obama did lie.

    Reality-2, Rutherford-0

    The time has come for the political rhetoric to be tamped down. While conservatives are quick to point to Nancy Pelosi as a pot stirrer, the truth is that the activities Pelosi labeled “unamerican” were the rude, uncivil activities demonstrated by a minority of protesters. On the other hand, we have Glenn Beck surmising that Barack Obama has a deep seated hatred for white people. We have Rush Limbaugh blaming black on white school violence on “Obama’s America”. – Rutherford, Is an Effigy No Longer Good Enough, 24 September 2009

    This was/is just one of many, many instances of you blaming any opposition to Obama on race. I’m not sure about the Beck comment, but Rush was talking to the abject silence from the Administration on what was racially based violence from blacks on whites. That has continued to today (flash mobs, etc). Aside from being 100% wrong on this, you went out on the limb to blame the right for violence (where none existed), excusing the left’s violence as incidental and isolated.

    Reality-3, Rutherford-0

    Apparently, in assessing then Senator Barack Obama’s chances at a successful presidential run, Reid said it was advantageous that Obama was “light-skinned” with “no Negro dialect unless he wanted to have one”. While a truck load of folks are unhappy with Reid’s choice of words, the overwhelming majority of Democrats have come to his defense and Barack Obama himself has given Harry a pass on this. This in turn, has conservatives fuming about a double standard saying that had a Republican uttered these phrases, he would have been forced to resign. – Rutherford, Who Are These Black People and Who Are Their Leaders, 12 January 2010

    You were responding to BiW, but Dodd/Byrd would have been a much better comparison. Only in the Dem party can you have a Klansman as a leader. After all, it was the Dems who started the Klan in the first place. Regardless, if this had been a Republican, you would have blown you fucking top calling him an insensitive, racist fuck who should be strung up on the nearest tree. Instead, you let the underlying racism in the Dem party slide because, well, its inconvenient to confront.

    Reality-4, Rutherford-0

    Last night the NAACP passed a resolution condemning racist factions within the Tea Party Movement. The question is not why, but why it took so long. From the outset, the TPM focused on uncertainty and fear for America’s future, particularly in the areas of taxation and right to bear arms. This in and of itself would have been no problem. Rhetoric on these issues can get heated without any reference to race or the use of racial caricatures in posters. Unfortunately a small minority of Tea Party protesters have used this understandable unrest as an excuse to further their racist agenda. – Rutherford, NAACP What Took You So Long?, 14 July 2010

    This, one of the more fickle of your posts, again perpetuates the racism mantra against the Tea Party without any facts to back it up. Yet, in the face of blatant racism, the question remains when you will ask the NAACP or maybe the ADL to condemn the OWS movement (since in your mind one example condemns a movement)?

    Reality-5, Rutherford-0

    Because as I turned it on radio host Tom Joyner was speaking and before he relinquished the microphone he said “I love you black people!”. What the hell was that about? Was everyone in that crowd worthy of Tom’s love simply because they were black? The sea of faces contained nary one fair-skinned one. If Glenn Beck had said, “I love you white people” all hell would have broken loose. – Rutherford, Tired of Watching Black and White TV, 29 August 2010

    I’ll throw you a bone, this was stand up. Too bad its rare.

    Reality-6, Rutherford-1

    I suppose I could go on, but frankly, I’ve more important things to do than point out your hypocrisy, which is ultimately the point.

    You know I’m beginning to worry about you. As vile as you find Poolman, your obsession with reverse racism makes me think you a prime candidate for a white supremacist group any day now. You need to get over it. Maybe you’ve just seen too many people of color (in this case, I’m referring to Afghans) f*cking with Americans and it has warped your mind.” R

    I’m sick and tired of your fucking hypocrisy. You expect us to be hypersensitive to ANYTHING that might be construed or perceived as racist, yet when confronted with blatant racism, you say nothing. It fucking pisses me off and shows you to be nothing more than an intellectual fraud. If your integrity is so small, your self-worth so limited, that you cannot abide by a standard, please let us know so we don’t hold you to a standard.

    I’ve had to deal with reverse racism, on several occasions. I get blamed for shit I’ve never done, and will never do, yet I see “victims” attack other people all the time and nothing is ever made of it. It pissed me off to see you call Tea Party folks racists, in one fell swoop, based off of your biased perceptions, yet not say a fucking word when it is presented to you on a platter. Why don’t you man up and face the truth, the OWS movement has a lot of racism going on within it.

    My only point is we mustn’t let the overuse of the charge of racism blunt our ability to call it out when we see it and when it really is there.” – R

    Oh please, shut the fuck up…

  207. “if every week they saw him hem and haw in front of the House?”

    The house would be labeled racist!

    R, please play along. I was getting to true racism: Obama is a superior president because he’s black — something you have said.

  208. So I guess I’m suggesting that the two senators per state approach promotes each state to equal standing within the Senate and DOES give each an equal voice. Whether the Senators are voted in by the people or appointed by the legislatures who represent the people, seems to me academic.

    It is not academic. Direct election means that senators are accountable to the people who elect them, or in the case of a state like mine, the voters located in 2 or 3 counties, and it is a matter of “bringing home the bacon”. When they are appointed (by whatever means) through the legislature, they answer to the legislature. It makes all the difference in the world, as history bears out.

  209. Now tell us why that might be if the reason for the accusation is the race of the accused and I’ll know we are getting somewhere.

    That’s where you go off track. The race of the accused is a factor but the overriding basis of the accusation is the content of the offensive speech. Truth be told, if a black man declares “all blacks are lazy” he deserves to be called a racist … of course in this case, a self loathing racist. You don’t see a lot of that because most folks don’t diss their own “tribe”. Besides, if we get down to brass tacks a racist by definition oppresses a race other than his own so even if we want to call a black who hates blacks a racist it wouldn’t quite fit.

    LOL as for my seemingly contradictory comments on perception, my implication was perception of the object of the comment is reality. But ok … I’ll grant you that self-perception is reality to the “self”.

    So when two people function in two different realities, one is delusional. So I guess on a case by case basis, we differ on who is having the delusion.

    You’re playing cute word games with me. I ask the question again … do you think that someone whom YOU think is a racist thinks that he is a racist? So who is right … you or the other guy?

  210. “It is not academic. Direct election means that senators are accountable to the people who elect them, or in the case of a state like mine, the voters located in 2 or 3 counties, and it is a matter of “bringing home the bacon.”

    R, you’re not familiar with the basis for Perry’s assertion? Your own ignorance results in a claim of ignorance? Damn this would be funny if it didn’t hurt so much. 😆

    I know you wouldn’t have said that if her were black. 😆 😆

  211. BiW, Clarence Thomas is a bad example. The man has serious racial hangups as evidenced by his hiding his Yale law school diploma because of bitterness he felt about assumptions he was a token student. Bitterness he carried right into adulthood and into an interview with “60 Minutes” some years ago.

  212. Solyndra founder Kaiser paid zero taxes for years

    But the Solyndra scandal is far from Kaiser’s first brush with political controversy. As the Sunlight Foundation’s Bill Allison reports today, Kaiser has become extraordinarily wealthy by taking advantage of the federal tax code in ways that some tax experts – including the IRS – believe to be illegal.

    As Allison describes it in his Sunlight post today, “in one six year period, during which he increased his net worth enough to land him on the Forbes list of the 400 wealthiest Americans, Kaiser reported taxable income to the Internal Revenue Service just once, totaling $11,699–equivalent to a full-time hourly wage of $5.62.”

  213. “That’s where you go off track. The race of the accused is a factor but the overriding basis of the accusation is the content of the offensive speech.”

    No. That’s where you go off the tracks. It wasn’t my hypothetical. I was getting to what constitutes actual racism rather than your substitute for it: “the perceptions of the accuser.”

    “You’re playing cute word games with me.”

    Fuck off Rutherford. Really. This is logic. And you willfully refuse to accept so that you can play your games. You really do turn into a jackass when it comes to this subject if it appears that you might lose the ability to hurl the accusation with intellectual impunity.

  214. Obama is a superior president because he’s black — something you have said.

    Excuuuuuse me? When the hell did I ever say that? If I did, it was part of a more complex argument. That comment taken in isolation is ass-hattery.

  215. I ask the question again … do you think that someone whom YOU think is a racist thinks that he is a racist? So who is right … you or the other guy?

    Those are two different questions.

    Does the guy I think is a racist considers himself a racist? In the case of a white supremacist, sure or NBP member, sure. The second part doesn’t pertain.

    As for a racist such as yourself, obviously you don’t consider yourself a racist. I am always right too.

    But the real answer is depends on the intent, not the self-determined basis for the opinion (i.e. perception) — my whole fucking point that you willfully and most annoyingly ignore.

  216. That comment taken in isolation is ass-hattery.

    Then you are an ass-hat. I’m not going to go dig it up. You have said just that. The context was that in our criticisms of Obama we failed to see how important it is that he is black, especially to the black community. In other words, that quality — his being black — makes him a superior president. That is your racism AND I perceive it.

    Does it offend you that I accuse of you racism by its very definition? Am I not being sensitive enough?

    This isn’t so hard is it R. It’s okay for you to think rather than react when it comes to this subject.

  217. So Tigre, would you like to find a different word than “racist”?

    I’m driving down the street and I kill a kid on a bike because I didn’t see the kid. I did not intend to kill him. Am I found innocent and let off scot free? No I’m found guilty of involuntary manslaughter (or vehicular homicide or whatever you lawyers call it).

    So when someone offends a bunch of people with his speech or his posters or whatever, do we just let him off the hook because “he didn’t mean to”?

    It’s like this rash of apologies we’ve seen lately that start with “If I offended anyone … ” NO … that’s not an apology. The fact is you DID offend people … now just apologize for it and STFU.

  218. “ET, are you answering Rutherford, or me?”

    I didn’t realize that Rutherford didn’t get it until I saw asking sincere questions. He was busy calling Perry stupid without knowing what he was talking about. Funny when he was defending comments about suspension of house elections from the left.

    So, I wasn’t really directing any thing to you other than my astonishment.

  219. Poolman has been very very clear on this board that he has a specific problem with Zionism. Yet many on this board call him a “Jew hater”. He has said he does not hate Jews. I don’t see anyone here focusing on his intent. I see folks focusing on their perception of his message.

    Poolman, sorry to use you to prove a point but I noticed no one addressed my earlier question about how we bend over backwards not to appear anti-Semitic and yet no one has a problem with that.

  220. “Am I found innocent and let off scot free? No I’m found guilty of involuntary manslaughter (or vehicular homicide or whatever you lawyers call it).”

    No your not.

    You are neither guilty of manslaughter (the intent to kill) or murder (the intent to kill with malice aforethought).

  221. But again BiW, please explain to me why the legislature in choosing the Senator is not influenced by their constituents? Sorry but I’m still not getting it.

    Because John Q. Citizen and Jane R. State Representative will not automatically have the same aims for a Senator.

    Citizen may be perfectly fine with increased Medicaid spending by the federal government for his state. Jane R. will look at that, and see that it expands or increases a certain type of spending, but doesn’t allow any of the money to be used to pay for the additional staff needed to administer the expanded program, meaning that a state already squeezed for tax revenie by the fed’s ever increasing slice of the pie (used to pay for that expanded medicid spending in the first place.) Jane understands that this is the feds spending the state’s potential revenue (or not…maybe she is a conservative, and would rather lett the state citizens keep more of their own money) and then deciding for them how it will be spent, and themn sticking them with the bill on top of it. This is just one example…I’m sure I can provide you with many, many more.

  222. “So when someone offends a bunch of people with his speech or his posters or whatever, do we just let him off the hook because “he didn’t mean to”?”

    Off the hook for ignorance and slander or “racism?”

    True story: My son asked me at the airport in the presence of a large crowd why all the people ahead of us in line had “dark skin.” The looks and scoffs were quite obvious. Now we’ve talked about my so. Should he “be let off the hook” Rutherford? Many there didn’t think so because there perceptions caused them to be offended.

  223. The context was that in our criticisms of Obama we failed to see how important it is that he is black, especially to the black community. In other words, that quality — his being black — makes him a superior president.

    I’m assuming the logical leap is yours not mine. I absolutely know how important his election was to the black community (and to all people interested in evidence of advanced civil rights in this country). That makes his election very important. It does NOT make him a superior President.

    So sorry, without a citation, I’m not going to let you claim a ridiculous logical leap that I seriously doubt I ever made.

    Does it offend you that I accuse of you racism by its very definition? Am I not being sensitive enough?

    LOL well now you’ve gone full circle. I said at the outset your accusing me of racism does not make you a racist.

  224. “Poolman, sorry to use you to prove a point but I noticed no one addressed my earlier question about how we bend over backwards not to appear anti-Semitic and yet no one has a problem with that.”

    You’ve just proved the opposite with this example. Poolman doesn’t bend over backwards to avoid the accusation.

  225. So when someone offends a bunch of people with his speech or his posters or whatever, do we just let him off the hook because “he didn’t mean to”?

    It’s like this rash of apologies we’ve seen lately that start with “If I offended anyone … ” NO … that’s not an apology. The fact is you DID offend people … now just apologize for it and STFU.

    Rutherford…YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED.

    That is the point. You, and others, keep acting as if you do. You don’t. Get the fuck over it. You, and others, cling so hard to your victimhood that you couldn’t overcome a speed bump, let alone true malicious intent.

  226. “That makes his election very important. It does NOT make him a superior President.”

    WTF??

    R, talk about playing games. You are a racist under your own standards.

    We can see Obama is black. You accused us of not recognizing its importance. Why is it important R?

  227. “LOL well now you’ve gone full circle. I said at the outset your accusing me of racism does not make you a racist.”

    It does not absolve me of it either — Zipper head! 😆

    God. You couldn’t navigate this argument with a map. And it’s because you don;t want to. You’re happy right where you are.

  228. Tigre,

    Credit default are merely bets (some say insurance) that the bonds go belly up or not.

    You can’t have a CDS with out someone on the other side wagering they will fail.

    So, there is a spread.

    I’m saying the spread was ridiculously in favor of the bonds never busting. Like 100 to 1 if you shorted them!

    How could that be? The market must have banked on Nanny intervention from the start!

    Purchasers of bonds can be duped. But the people betting on those bonds in the form of derivatives? No fucking way!

    Greek sovereign debt is bundled. I guarantee you can’t get 100 to 1 odds that Greece fails.

    The bet was never if bonds would fail, but if Nanny would intervene.

  229. You are neither guilty of manslaughter (the intent to kill) or murder (the intent to kill with malice aforethought).

    OK Perry Mason, what would I be convicted of?

  230. R, I don’t think YOU should be let off scot free. Really I don’t. I think your mindset has caused more damage to race relations than anything you accuse others of even when true. I hate that because I am not a racist.

  231. R, are you really this dense? Just because someone dies doesn’t mean someone else goes to prison. Like just because someone is offended doesn’t mean it’s someone else’s fault. Why is this point so elusive for you?

  232. “I’m saying the spread was ridiculously in favor of the bonds never busting. Like 100 to 1 if you shorted them”

    That’s because they were unloaded for the next guy to unload and so on. I thought that was explained in the little animation (maybe I picked the wrong one — I saw it years ago and thought it was clever). It’s the same reason the pyramid schemes don’t require the ignorance of the participant, just the ability to not be at the bottom.

  233. R, are you really this dense?

    I didn’t say anything about prison, per se. But I DID think there was some penalty for killing someone regardless of intent. I guess the justice system is more forgiving than I imagined.

    Actor Matthew Broderick was fined for “careless driving” when he accidentally drove head on into another car in Ireland many years ago killing its two occupants. Wouldn’t a similar penalty be faced here?

  234. This discussion is amusing in light of the post I had already planned to write before this discussion ensued. I’ll be posting it today or tomorrow.

    You know “R”. You did threaten to banish me once for using the term “Mammy.” I was feared you were going to come smote me. 🙂

    That one I never could figure out why it riled you so. Let me get me away with verbal murder, but ‘Mammy’ – “I’ll kick your ass so far out of off this blog….”

    You’re a hoot. A crazed hoot. But a hoot.

  235. “Actor Matthew Broderick was fined for “careless driving” when he accidentally drove head on into another car in Ireland many years ago killing its two occupants. Wouldn’t a similar penalty be faced here?”

    I don’t know. I understood he was drunk. That creates constructive intent in that the “intent” to drink and the decision to drive is so reckless that it rises to the level of criminal intent. There is such a thing as negligent homicide (I believe), the intent to engage in foreseeably risky conduct is required. Having an epileptic seizure behind the wheel and crashing is not a crime, nor should it be.

    Civil “liability” is of course different.

    So, should my son get off scot free for his display of “racism?” 🙄

    (the obvious answer to that should make you feel silly about your point that “perception” of the accuser should be the measure of whether one is a racist).

  236. “You are wrong that CDO’s were. Case in point, AIG”

    I thiiiink I get where you’re coming from. You may be light years ahead of me on this.

    I understood that diversification resulted in ratings that were not reflective of the actual risk to the CDOs (which would require systemic collapse — as we had).

    Perhaps it was deliberate, but if it’s not the hot potato game that distorted the risk/ratings, I haven’t got a clue why. I just don’t think that AIG could be that confident of a bailout in the political climate in an election year.

    Are we on the same page now?

  237. R, are you going hypocritically accuse us of hypocrisy or racism?

    Ooooh, I can’t wait to be spanked by that beautiful black man, R. 😆

  238. the obvious answer to that should make you feel silly about your point that “perception” of the accuser should be the measure of whether one is a racist

    Ehhhh no, wrong again.

    I said that the perception needed to be rational and I used Huck’s example of being offended by white paper as an irrational example. Depending on the age of the child, someone taking offense at a child’s exclamation is irrational.

    By the way …. when we attended my grandfather’s funeral, we were surrounded by more black people in one hour than we usually are in three years. My daughter observed to my wife “there are a lot of brown people here”. LOL

  239. Those folks that were offended thought it was rational. They probably assumed that it came from home, or it should’ve been curbed by different behavior.

    And I have never been wrong. 😆

    You and G-chin called me a racist (in so many words). And you guys had your heads up your asses. If I said the same things and were black. . . no charge of racism. So fuck you with your “rational.” 😆 You are a racist and you`re not absolved because you accused me of first!

    So you let “brown” people near your black family?

  240. Hey Thor,

    I’ve changed my mind on the Obama wager. How about this and the wager stays the same – hundred bucks? The payment goes toward this blog. If I win, I want you to donate your proceeds to Rutherford Lawson using Pen Pal or whatever.

    You win, I’ll let you decide how to split the proceeds with Rutherford.

    Do we have a deal witnessed by all the people on this board? I take the Republican; you take Obama. Rutherford deserves something for letting us use his blog, and I’m overdue on down payment.

    That way, I can dogpile Rutherford’s ass all the way to November, and he gets something in return besides my lip. :twisted

  241. Over 300,000 million dollars in bonus quid.

    Now think about it, its literally impossible to fail worse then Joseph Cassano did.

    A masturbating monkey who throws poop at Ben Bernanke couldn’t fail this bad.

    George Micheal operating out of homemade office in a rest stop couldn’t fail this bad.

    Jared Lee Loughner could not inflict more damage on AIG and the financial world then this guy.

    I can’t even conjure up a bigger failure in Plato’s realm of ideas, and fucking unicorns graze in that place.

    300 million dollars!

  242. Obama just blew $500k. Million, billion, trillion — what’s the difference? A couple of consonants.

    Notice MSNBC or Rutherford talking about it?

    Nope. Let’s find commonality between the tea party and OWS to justify more of the same. God forbid the left admit the fucking failure of the last 4 years they have had control of the purse strings and regulation.

  243. “I just don’t think that AIG could be that confident of a bailout in the political climate in an election year.”

    If you think about, I can’t recall a massive piece of legislation with more bipartisan support. Remember, there was no Tea Party movement yet.

    TARP was a slam dunk.

    Plus, these bank guys were all major political donors.

    Secondly, even the shorts had no clue when it would all implode. It could have just as well happened back in ’04 or ’05. So, election outcomes couldn’t have weighed in on there thinking one way or the other.

    But your right, ultimately, I can’t prove they bet on a bail out.

    It could have very well been indescribable stupidity.

    If so, that is some Forest Gump shit, that’s for sure.

    Bubba Gump Scrimps!

  244. Rabbitt, okay. We’re on the same page. I really think the total rather than piecemeal collapse was the only unpredictable aspect. Looking back I agree the ratings were eerily irrational. . .

    Rutherford, what did you think of the George Will piece? It’s really short. If you were paying attention, he pretty well synthesized the last 500 or so posts of your detractors here? Anything? Bueller?

  245. Just spent way too much time embedding videos into my latest post. I’m going to bed.

    Hey Rabbit … tell your Goddam Tigers to stop preempting The X Factor … it’s pissing me off!!!!!

  246. Imitation is the sincerest form of progressivism because nostalgia motivates progressives, not conservatives.

    That is my favorite quote from Will’s piece. Hilarious. No nostalgia on the part of conservatives …. founding fathers, Ronald Reagan, founding fathers, Ronald Reagan … founding fathers, Ronald Reagan.

    I happen to enjoy George Will. He’s a wonk and I don’t get a lot of hate vibe from him. But he can say some of the dumbest things.

    I take your Will and raise you one Krauthammer. When I saw this quote this morning I fondly thought of all you guys:

    Exhibit C. To the villainy-of-the-rich theme emanating from Washington, a child is born: Occupy Wall Street. Starbucks-sipping, Levi’s-clad, iPhone-clutching protesters denounce corporate America even as they weep for Steve Jobs, corporate titan, billionaire eight times over.

    These indignant indolents saddled with their $50,000 student loans and English degrees have decided that their lack of gainful employment is rooted in the malice of the millionaires on whose homes they are now marching — to the applause of Democrats suffering acute Tea Party envy and now salivating at the energy these big-government anarchists will presumably give their cause.

    Except that the real Tea Party actually had a program — less government, less regulation, less taxation, less debt. What’s the Occupy Wall Street program? Eat the rich.

  247. “I’ve changed my mind on the Obama wager. How about this and the wager stays the same – hundred bucks?” – Tex

    Good God man. What contortions you must go through picking out a tie in the morning. 🙂 Donating to R is fine with me. He has been a gracious host. If I win he can have it as well.

  248. I don’t know thorsaurusthorsaurus. What contortions must you go through to type your own name numb nuts?

    I’m going to enjoy sticking this one up your sissified, prog ass. I only wish I could add my boot to it. Give you a lesson your Rambo daddy didn’t. 😈

  249. This is cool, either way I win! 😎 It’ll make losing Obama that less painful for me.

    By the way Thor, for some odd reason you are posting your name in duplicate. I’ve cleared the new “double name” for posting here on the blog so you won’t go into moderation.

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