A Sad Day in American Political History

At 9:17 am EDT NBC political director Chuck Todd tweeted “What a sad day in American political history”. I could not have said it better in so few words but I will elaborate on Mr. Todd’s point.

After over two years of the lunatic fringe asking to see President Barack Obama’s birth certificate, a form of which he had already offered to the public, the President today capitulated and published the “long form” of his Hawaiian birth certificate. So long as the crazed birther movement was led by certifiably insane Orly Taitz, part-time lawyer, part-time dentist, part-time real estate broker, the White House felt it could ignore the crackpot conspiracy theory that the President was foreign-born and therefore ineligible to be President of the United States. Once the self-promoting reality TV star, Donald Trump entered the fray, all that changed. Suddenly, the birther movement moved from TV news’ sideshow to their lead story.

The President had two choices, continue to ignore the foolishness or provide further proof that he is an American citizen. I have very mixed feelings about his choice. On the one hand, his release of the long form lays the matter to rest for all but the most truly lunatic among us. By doing so, he has shown 66% of the Republican party to be gullible idiots. He has shown Donald Trump to be, as the President put it in today’s press announcement, “a carnival barker”. He has hopefully cut substantially into the profits of Jerome Corsi’s upcoming book “Where’s the Birth Certificate?”

But there is a sad downside to this capitulation. The most powerful man in the world today was reduced to saying essentially, “Yes Massa, I really is an American. I gots the papers to prove it.” Not since the dark days of the 19th century where blacks had to identify themselves as free or slave has a man’s identity been so disgustingly challenged. There is no doubt that our incredibly sheltered citizenry who can’t identify other countries on a map had an adjustment to make with a President with such an exotic background. And let’s be honest. Obama, at least from one side of his family, is a first generation American. That is NEW for our country. However, his background makes him a black American.

People can talk until they are blue in the face. No President whose mother was American and father was French would have received this kind of scrutiny about his heritage. The fact is that despite the fact that we elected him, a vocal minority of this country could not accept having a black President and grasped at any straw possible to delegitimize him. Obama could have continued to ignore this contingent but chose to let them control the agenda. By publishing his long form birth certificate, Obama conceded that the lunatics are running the asylum. He validated their nutjob concerns by taking the time to address them.

One of my fellow bloggers whom I shall not identify because he should be ashamed of himself, recently said that he wished the birther conspiracy to be proven true so that Obama could be run out of office.  There is no depth to which enemies of this President will not stoop to see him undone. What is the next step in this process? As some pundits have asked this morning, will Obama now have to publish his school transcripts? Will he have to publish his college thesis? What other things must Obama do to prove his legitimacy?  We are the laughing-stock of the world today. Other countries see us circling the drain while we spend time on this idiocy. The long form is published. Now where are the jobs? When are the foreclosures going to stop? When are our sons and daughters going to stop dying in fruitless wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Libya? How the hell did today’s developments move our country forward?

Who knows, maybe Dwight Eisenhower’s signature on the 1959 Hawaii Admission Act was a forgery? Maybe Hawaii really isn’t a state of the union at all? Perhaps Donald Trump can have his investigators look into that since we have to find some way, any way, to reject this President.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

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350 thoughts on “A Sad Day in American Political History

  1. “…We are the laughing-stock of the world today. Other countries see us circling the drain while we spend time on this idiocy. The long form is published. Now where are the jobs? When are the foreclosures going to stop? When are our sons and daughters going to stop dying in fruitless wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Libya? How the hell did today’s developments move our country forward?”

    We’ll be able to get a lot of play out of those words.

  2. Race?

    “One of my fellow bloggers whom I shall not identify because he should be ashamed of himself, recently said that he wished the birther conspiracy to be proven true so that Obama could be run out of office.”

    Me too (unless you were referring to me and I forgot saying it). And I’m not ashamed. Kind of reminds me of the Killian memos — another issue of race. 🙄

    So how many racist Dims that questioned Obama’s citizenship voted for him? Seriously. You Are a race baiter plain and simple Rutherford. Shame on you.

    Let’s go back to talking about Trig. Did you have anything to say about that?

  3. “Now I want to see Trig’s birth certificate, please…”

    Yes. Because he is the President of the United States of America and his citizenship is mandated by our Constitution.

  4. “Now I want to see Trig’s birth certificate, please…”

    ‘Yes. Because he is the President of the United States of America and his citizenship is mandated by our Constitution.’

    No, because his mother, who came within a close shot of being one 72-year old heartbeat from the presidency, got away with a massive hoax and either managed to conceal it from John McCain’s whole staff or he was complicit in it. And that kind of shenanigans must be exposed to keep it from happening again.

  5. “And that kind of shenanigans must be exposed to keep it from happening again.”

    Why is that? Was there a law that was potentially broken regarding the issue of his birth?

    On what legal basis must this information come to light?

  6. “No, because his mother, who came within a close shot of being one 72-year old heartbeat from the presidency, got away with a massive hoax and either managed to conceal it from John McCain’s whole staff or he was complicit in it. And that kind of shenanigans must be exposed to keep it from happening again.”

    Then why don’t you ask? Why doesn’t the media ask? Obama should ask. Push the issue. When she witholds it, you can talk all about Obama and his candor. Rutherford will have to explain his sexism– after all, the question wouldn’t have been asked of a man, now would it? But of course, someone as sensitive to the true motivations of suchj inquiries wouldn’t have raised questions about Trig, right Rutherford?

  7. I seemed to remember alot important shit going on when Bush was in office. Why was CBS running stories about his service record in complete reliance on falsified documents?

    You guys slay me.

  8. I love how in some debates Sarah Palin is an insignificant joke who is nothing but a quitter and in other debates she is this all-powerful figure based simply on what she FAILED to accomplish.

  9. Mr. Outraged (that’s you Rutherford). Honestly, can you explain how those that voted for Obama yet were unsure of his citizenship are racists? Please.

    PF, you’re welcomes to take a crack at it too.

  10. I swear to god and two other white men, as Redd Foxx said, this place is more fun than a coon in a pine top. Whooeeee!

    I can’t believe I wasted any time elsewhere, including a place that cannot be mentioned…LOL.

  11. And if PFesser has an issue with McCain’s health, he must really be cheesed over the selection of a VP who has had multiple aneurysms. You remember him, right? The guy on the team that actually won the election?

    Just think how close that puts John Boehner to the top seat!

  12. Boehner seems like a nice enough guy, but he can’t be president.

    There’s no crying in baseball, er, presidenting.

  13. It must be a prerequisite that original posters of Fat Grannies who float down the sewer pipe and end up here in the Rutherford punch bowl are mindless conspiracy dolts, with a predilection for the irrelevant. Living water, Down’s baby as targets?

    Doesn’t get any weirder or lower than that, lest your dragging your niece down to the mill without her parent’s consent.

    ————-

    You think this is about race Rutherford? 😆 Our Most Transparent President? This post might be even more frivolous than the Gifford’s affair. So much for the new civility.

    You’ve come full circle in your charges. I told Rabbit here after Obama won, it wouldn’t be a year before we’d hear charges of racism from you when the worthless and ignorant Bo was criticized, and it took you less than 90 days. You never disappoint.

    Now that Obama was caught attending another militant black liberal theology church over the Easter weekend with their pandering, white hating preacher, I think it safe to assume the real race hustling “post racial” (cough cough) pimp is sitting in the Oval Office, smart enough to let weak men like you carry forth with his ineptness as he sells out the country. Maybe we can be like Africa? Hooray!

    It goes along with the New Black Panther as Attorney General.

    After watching these two black bitches with their nasty cracks of their asses hanging out of the shorts, pulverize a LGBT type in McDonald’s for being white and realizing what animals we are dealing with anymore for our acquiescence, I took a little target practice. Figured it might come in handy when Obama loses in 2012. Hopefully, they’ll continue the trend of burning down their own neighborhoods in protest and I’ll simply get to watch TV.

  14. Can someone give me the Cliff Notes version as to why Rutherford thinks today was such a travesty?

    Andrew Jackson’s wife was called out as a cock sucking whore in the press.

    Obama showed the same form I did to play Pony League baseball in the 6th grade. Oh the humanity.

  15. Ok, I got to the “massa” part. Lol.

    Rutherford, you create the game, I’m just gonna be a player in it.

    I want to see an invoice for how much water melon has been purchased by the white house over the last two and a half years.

    I’m also gonna run out and buy one of those black lawn jockeys for my new home too.

    I’ll buy Rutherford an extra lawn jockey so that he can seat belt it in his Benz and drive in the High Occupancy Vehicle Lane.

    There is an obvious shortage on the supply side in the racism market these days. I’m gonna get rich, niggaz!

  16. I love how in some debates Sarah Palin is an insignificant joke who is nothing but a quitter and in other debates she is this all-powerful figure based simply on what she FAILED to accomplish.

    It is an enigma, isn’t it?

    I guess when you have absolutely no record of success though your promised heaven on earth with cliche “we are the generation”, and the excuse that it’s Bush’s fault has run dry, and all those grievous sins that you accused Bush of facilitating and you campaigned against, you’ve now not only followed the Bush lead but multiplied the effects, and the groupies who peed in the pants and fainted at your teleprompter are grumbling, and you shit on the middle class by telling them the solution to higher gas prices is to buy more a new car…

    Well, you got find something to detract from your massive failures.

    Don’t kid yourself – Rutherford loves this issue, as it keeps the focus off the dismal record of Obama – he’s counting on the racial sympathy vote to carry Bo.

  17. I’m also gonna run out and buy one of those black lawn jockeys for my new home too.

    😆 😆 We call those Jivin’ Ivin’s Rabbit! 😆 😆

  18. Hubris/on

    I just paid for the carpet in my new house off of a May silver call bought this morning.

    Bam!

    My goal is to make so much fucking money I turn Hucking into a eunuch and make him tutor me so that my high school power point presentations improve.

    Hubris/off

  19. Excellent Rabbit – I hope you get to pay for your entire house, and I wished I had bought more silver. Dropped like a rock yesterday, exploded in value this afternoon.

    AGQ PROSHARES TRUST II ULTRA SILVER 28 361.75 +43.3080

    ROI = 43.31%
    Value = 10,129.00
    Cost – 6,823.48
    Short-term gain = $3,305.52

    Would have taken me an entire month to pay for my carpet.

    I figure that works out to about a 500% annual return, though. I suppose I can live with that. 🙂

  20. Mr. Rutherford, old friend:

    Don’t you realize that you risk a great deal with these bogus charges of racism about Obama? I don’t loathe him because he’s half black. I loathe him because he’s stupid, narcissistic and liar. Clinton had two of those qualities, is a hell of a lot more white than I am, and I loathed him too.

    Why is that all but a few blacks of even our generation are so strangled with the efficacy of their melanin? That’s just a pathetic excuse for failure. Come on man, you’re smarter than this horseshit.

    You know damn well why the posters here adverse to Obama can’t stand the man. We don’t give a damn how he looks – he give a damn about how he thinks.

  21. A true degenerate only speaks of his triumphs.

    The question is, will the Rabbit come clean on the Rutherford Lawson Blog when he gets his long over due spanking.

    I always know the warm embrace of the victim party, the Dems, are waiting for me with open arms.

    I can’t lose!

    The big banks can get bailed out by the Fed and the Gov at any time, and I can get bailed out with massive blocks of cheese and huge vats of welfare honey.

    Utopia!!!!!!

  22. can you explain how those that voted for Obama yet were unsure of his citizenship are racists?

    I reject your premise.

    I never said the majority of the country are birthers. While I do believe that SOME of the folks who voted for Obama got caught up in the moment and afterwards said “sh*t we’ve really got a Negro in the White House”, I think most folks voted for Obama on the up and up …. or in the case of blacks … because he was black 😉

    My problem with this country is that birthers found a safe place here. No one with any authority or public standing with “bully pulpit” so to speak has called them the nutjobs that they are. GOPhers like Boehner have been particularly cowardly.

    There are three kinds of people:
    1. Birthers who are either racist, crazy or both.
    2. Non-birthers (i.e. folks who live in the real world)
    3. Legit folks (like Tigre, Gorilla, etal.) who dislike Obama and love anyone who takes a shot at him. They tacitly support the birther movement by their silence … or their amusement … or their “intellectual consideration” of the birther position.

  23. Dude, give it a rest. Obama created this problem by not releasing the damn thing.

    He’s the President. This kind of shit always happens. Ask Bush. Ask Jackson. Ask them all. Usually the stuff don’t stick. Sometimes the stuff leaves a stain on a blue dress.

    For a guy who has NEVER addressed urban America, you sure conjure up some yawners when it comes to race, Rutherford.

    Its over now, move on.

    Your drama makes me laugh.

    I guarantee the country won’t be crying the pity tears you are requesting.

  24. I’m legit! 😆

    R, I am loving to watch Trump play Obama and the liberal media as complete fools. You screaming “racism” (just like the intellectual giant Whoopi) is exactly the wrong response from the left. The “everybody that doesn’t drink Obama’s bathwater is racist and stupid mantra” was a mistake prior to November and its a mistake now. The fact that you believe it is downright pathetic.

  25. After watching these two black bitches with their nasty cracks of their asses hanging out of the shorts, pulverize a LGBT type in McDonald’s for being white

    Now who’s being racially sensitive? They didn’t pulverize her for being white. They pulverized her for being transgender and as far as they were concerned being a “man” in a the women’s restroom.

    And that liberal bastion of America haters change.org are already pressuring McDonalds to make sure the sh*t doesn’t happen again.

  26. Hopefully, they’ll continue the trend of burning down their own neighborhoods in protest and I’ll simply get to watch TV.

    Funny you should mention that. I never understood why blacks protested oppression by burning down their own neighborhoods. Why didn’t they march to the rich white neighborhoods and burn that mofo down? Never made sense to me.

  27. R, they were beating that “white bitch.”

    What a dilemma either way when it comes to “hate” crimes. “Thou shalt no commit Obama supporter on Obama supporter crime.”

  28. Lol…I just pictured the Sultan’s tutor as a eunuch.

    I’m 99.9 percent sure Hucking wouldn’t find me attractive.

  29. Now who’s being racially sensitive? They didn’t pulverize her for being white. They pulverized her for being transgender and as far as they were concerned being a “man” in a the women’s restroom.

    Oh Lawd…they didn’t even know she or he or whatever was transgender until it was announced. Those two bitches were too stupid to understand the term transgender.

    This black ganging up on white has escalated lately. There’s been dozens of instances – and I have a feeling when the blowback happens, and it will, there’s going to be some black ass frying. This predatory shit is going to stop sooner or later.

    I’m not trying to be “racially insensitive” Rutherford. You ought to know me well enough that I’m no racist – smart ass punk maybe. 😉

    I’m just telling you what’s coming. Not all whiteys are just going to lay down and take our medicine for not being black. They come looking for me and I’m going to be aiming with something that will vaporize those heads if they could looking to stomp my ass.

  30. Dude, give it a rest. Obama created this problem by not releasing the damn thing.

    And spending MILLIONS in legal fees in multiple venues. You forgot that part.

    Truely, R, it was an “issue” because of his ego and willingness to spend more than some people make in a lifetime to not release it.

    And the whole racist tack that you have once again returned to, like the proverbial dog returning to its vomit, yes, I accept your declaration that you got nothin’, and will still contort like someone 5 moves into a game of Twister to defend a man who once again wagged his finger about distractions like this when we have serious problems before attacking those serious problems boarding a plane for a taping of Oprah and a day of strenuous fund raising.

    I’m not disappointed that you know that you supported a mendacious empty suit. I’m disappointed that you reimagine reality so as to be able to somehow defend him. That’s the tragedy here.

  31. I provided #42 in the hopes that Rutherford relieve his worries about the threat of Christian theocracy and all in America. I suspect if there were a threat of theocracy, there might, just might, be a lot of dead gays crucified in San Francisco.

    Because he’s so worried about “the children.”

    Think we will see a hunky Mohammad in the foreseeable future Rutherford as you and the equally insufferable bigots like PFesser go on and on about evil Christians?

  32. re: racial attacks

    Anybody remember about ten years ago, when students were being attacked in Charlottesville, near the downtown walking mall? Turned out to be a group of 5-6 black y’utes – boys and girls – who were attacking white folks exclusively. They freely admitted the attacks were race based, once caught.

    David Duke decided to weigh in and demand they be charged with hate crimes, since unquestionably that would be the case if the roles (races) were reversed and all the assailants white/victims black.

    The local prosecutors refused to do so.

    *********

    As an aside, my wife and I have family and friends in Charlottesville and we frequented the downtown walking mall area a lot during that time. As reports of these attacks mounted, I began to keep my .38 pistol with me anytime we visited town. These “kids” could have been “dead kids” if they had been in the wrong place at the right time. Not smart to attack people you don’t know. Especially an *old* man. As the adage goes, if he’s too old to fight, he’ll just kill you.

  33. Maybe Hawaii really isn’t a state of the union at all?

    Actually, it really isn’t.

    Colonialism at work…

    Many Hawaiians have expressed support of the Declaration of Independence announcing the sovereignty of the Kingdom of Hawaii. We fully expect that the United States shall endorse the principal of self-determination in this matter, ending more than a century of unlawful occupation.

  34. One of my fellow bloggers whom I shall not identify because he should be ashamed of himself, recently said that he wished the birther conspiracy to be proven true so that Obama could be run out of office.” – R

    I said it R, and I’m not ashamed to say it.

    All this racist indignation, and for what, showing documents he was suppose to show in the first place? Really, is this a racist thing? Is that always going to be your answer?

    ‘Obama got the math problem wrong.’ You racist fuck!!! How dare you criticize a black man for being wrong. It’s not his fault he’s wrong, he’s black.

    That’s what you sound like every time to throw the race card. He’s legitimately wrong on so many issues, yet instead of discuss the issues, you throw the race card, which only reinforces the message that its ok for him to be wrong because he’s black. Its like he can’t do any better than that, so we should all just cut the brother some slack. What’s a couple hundred billion between us homies yo.

    Do you hate yourself that much? Does your daily life really revolve around your skin color that much? Are you loved, or just pitied, because after all, great expectations ain’t what black folk do. You’re a self-licking ice-cream cone, perpetuating your own stereotypes as strawmen desperately needed to justify your preconceived excuses, which are based on stereotypes.

    Grow up man…

  35. You ever notice these black “youth” never attack any white that can take care of himself? Never…

    This is how an “old guy” treats a black thug PFesser. Proper way for “pinky” to treat the hood. Watch this punk get tagged. Does my heart good. Bust that mofo. 😆 He be leakin’.

  36. You know damn well why the posters here adverse to Obama can’t stand the man.

    You do make one mistake Tex. While I love you guys, I write for anyone who will read, not just for the regulars who comment here.

    You all dislike Obama based on ideology and policy. I get that. However, the previous article I wrote on Trump revealed something quite disturbing, namely that many of you will give tacit approval to the birthers, or even privately hope for their success in humiliating our President, while at the same time you distance yourself from their insane allegations. It’s the Boehner/Cantor/Bachmann “I take the President at his word” bullsh*t.

    Any of you who call yourselves patriots should be disgusted by the birthers and find Trump’s embrace of them an immediate disqualification.

  37. You all dislike Obama based on ideology and policy.

    And his blatant incompetence and piss-poor disposition. Don’t forget those, either.

    Any of you who call yourselves patriots should be disgusted by the birthers and find Trump’s embrace of them an immediate disqualification.

    Not so much by the birthers, for the reasons listed in my latest post. Trump, on the other hand…
    While I would expect that much like the Narcisstic One, anything he would talk about would be replete with “I”s and “Me”s, just so we wouldn’t forget it was all really just about him, I don’t think the country is up for four more years of an attention whore like Obama or the Donald. The Donald needs to stick to reality TV where I can give him all the attention he deserves (that is, none) and Obama needs to going back to coaching union thugs and Cloward-Piven types how to break the system, and get the hell out of the Oval Office, where the only thing about him that is up to par is his score on the back nine.

  38. I’m also slightly annoyed (not the fault of the “regulars” here) that no self-identified blacks ever comment here. I’m tired of being accused of being a race-baiter by people who if they had any empathy whatsoever would understand the racial aspects of this story.

    I once heard a story from Eddie Murphy that I can’t find on Google so I can’t link it but it goes like this: Eddie is on a mall escalator and he overhears the following dialog behind him — Man:”Look at what that ni**er is wearing” Wife:”Honey that’s no ni**er. That’s Eddie Murphy”.

    You see Eddie was a special kind of ni**er. So that exempted him in the wife’s mind. And so it is here that no matter what you achieve in this country … becoming the f*cking President of the United States — to a vocal minority you’re just another illegitimate ni**er.

    And of all people, Rabbit who has been around way more blacks than I have been, should be able to spot this undercurrent with no problem at all. DR …are you just in denial? Just playing devil’s advocate?

    Tigre, are you telling me your black relatives don’t sense a scintilla of racism in the whole birther movement?

    Stunning. 😐

  39. I haven’t noticed you Rutherford condemning Al-Poolman for his assertions that Bush, Cheney and the Mossad bringing down the towers for political gain.

    Matter of fact, I haven’t heard your condemnation of Bush & Cheney being called war criminals to be tried at the Hague.

    And I certainly don’t read of you loudly condemning this new hobby about “youthful” blacks ganging up to beat ‘pinky.’

    I called the birther brouhaha a non-issue and foolish. The only novelty of it is that it apparently drives you nuts. What more do you want me to do? Praise Obama? I think he’s a bully and sleazebag. He was even smarmy and arrogant today. “I don’t have time for this foolishness…”

  40. Gorilla … when have you ever said “Obama is f*cking up this Libya thing” and I answered “Oh you just don’t like him cos he’s black”?

    You guys are so full of sh*t. I’ve NEVER answered a legit policy criticism of Obama with some racial outrage or excuse. I play the so-called race card when it is appropriate to do so. The man provided proof of citizenship ages ago. The case should have been closed. Instead, he had to go get a waiver of Hawaii policy and get the long form released. The short form was legally sufficient. It did not satisfy those who wanted to delegitimize the man. Plain and simple.

    And to BiW … please dispense with the BS that Obama spent millions to avoid showing his birth certificate. I’ve read that it costs money to deal with even frivolous law suits like the ones launched by space cadet Orly Taitz. But it didn’t cost millions. Another bullsh*t meme that you gullible GOPhers jumped on like flies on a carcass.

  41. Tex, Chris Matthews made an interesting point today that I actually had thought of myself prior …. as much as the truther stuff might rightfully piss people off, it’s harder to disprove than the birther stuff. One sheet of paper killed the birther stuff for anyone but the most nutty among us. On the other hand, there will always be some debate about the way the towers came tumbling down. Just as there will always be debate about Kennedy’s assassination. I choose to believe the commonly held explanation of 9/11. I find other explanations stretch the imagination … and I also don’t believe Bush/Cheney sufficiently evil to fulfill their role in the conspiracy.

    BTW, Cheney is a war criminal because he encouraged and condoned torture but that’s another story altogether.

    P.S. Trend of black’s beating up pinky? LOL you’re kidding right? First, black on white crime is nothing new and black on black crime has always been more prevalent.

  42. Well, when pinky starts lynching “youthful” blacks as payback, I suppose I won’t hear the last of it. But then, fairness in application never was your talent.

  43. And to BiW … please dispense with the BS that Obama spent millions to avoid showing his birth certificate. I’ve read that it costs money to deal with even frivolous law suits like the ones launched by space cadet Orly Taitz. But it didn’t cost millions. Another bullsh*t meme that you gullible GOPhers jumped on like flies on a carcass.

    Rutherford, Perkins Coie attorneys don’t just show up for free, and they did more than just “send a letter” as this Politi-Fact, which strangely makes a conclusion without having all the facts, implies:

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/apr/12/donald-trump/donald-trump-claims-obama-has-spent-2-million-lega/

    Now having been involved with the fellas from Perkins Coie on an occaision or two, I know they don’t come cheap. As in if I billed at their rates, I could have a nice BMW in the drive way and private school for the boys. I also know that you have to prepare, file, and argue motions to get cases dismissed…these things take time, and that is what we evvvvvvviiiillll attorneys sell is time.

    Now I know the authors of the article would like me to believe that the size of the campaign apparatus make a difference in the cost to “wind it down”, but I’m calling bullshit on that. If you were to compare the cost of the two wind downs, and give O another hundred grand or two (and even the guys from PC could do a LOT for a hundred grand), you are still left with a million, give or take.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/apr/12/donald-trump/donald-trump-claims-obama-has-spent-2-million-lega/

    You might have slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but you still aren’t an attorney.

  44. I choose to believe the commonly held explanation of 9/11. I find other explanations stretch the imagination …

    19 Arabs with boxcutters directed by a religious fanatic in a cave in Tora Bora outwitted the entire US department of defense, the FBI, the CIA, the Secret Service, the FAA, and NORAD. And plenty of nonArabs are still benefitting strategically and financially. Not too much of a stretch there! 🙄

  45. “Tigre, are you telling me your black relatives don’t sense a scintilla of racism in the whole birther movement?”

    Don’t know and can’t speak for them. Curious. Why should it matter in this discussion?

  46. 19 Arabs with boxcutters directed by a religious fanatic in a cave in Tora Bora outwitted the entire US department of defense, the FBI, the CIA, the Secret Service, the FAA, and NORAD.

    What was to outwit? The intelligence agencies were forbidden to talk to each other, the FBI was a day late and a dollar short in checking up on the intel it had been given, the CIA has been HUMINT deficient for decades, relying instead on technology which, while fantastic, has its limits, the Secret Service would have had nothing to do with airline security, which was cursory at that time, and NORAD could pancake the flights that would comply and scramble fighters for the rest.

    So what was to outwit, nitwit?

  47. The issue with where Obama might have been born doesn’t have anything to do with his skin color. It has to do with people not liking him.

    Rutherford, I believe you are correct in that the whole birther thing was meant to delegitimize his presidency. But you are incorrect in that it would not have happened if his father was French and not Kenyan.

    That’s why I call you out for making it because he’s black. Because ultimately, I don’t believe that’s what it was about.

    Of course, you also seem to believe that a lot of what people don’t like about him is that he’s black, so I’m probably not going to change your mind with my logic, anyway.

  48. What was to outwit?

    How do you define outwit? It seems apropos.

    The intelligence agencies were forbidden to talk to each other,

    Of course. By whose design?

    the FBI was a day late and a dollar short in checking up on the intel it had been given,

    Not true. FOIA has provided proof otherwise. They provided the intel to the administration well in advance.

    the CIA has been HUMINT deficient for decades, relying instead on technology which, while fantastic, has its limits,

    The CIA mingles with Israel and the Arab nations. They were monitoring OBL’s communications up until 9/11.

    Both NORAD and the FAA were flat outwitted.
    And no heads rolled…

    So That’s what was to outwit, nitwit

  49. “19 Arabs with boxcutters directed by a religious fanatic in a cave in Tora Bora outwitted the entire US department of defense, the FBI, the CIA, the Secret Service, the FAA, and NORAD.”

    That’s not a fair assessment. That’s like saying that if I walk up behind you – taking advantage of the fact I may move freely in this country, without having to tell anyone who I am, where I’m going or what my business is – and I slit your throat from behind, it’s your fault because I “outwitted” you.

    No, the problem is that these murderers were religious nutcases with a seething hatred that they acted upon by purposely snuffing out the lives of thousands of non-combatants.

    As for the response on 911, as a pilot I can tell you the decisiveness and speed with which the whole air system was stood down, acting on the word of one man, was breathtaking. I’m no fan of this govt, but there was one place where it did its job well.

  50. re: Hawaii as a sovereign state.

    I don’t know if that’s a good idea or not. My state (Virginia) tried that shit and it didn’t seem to work out that well. (FWIW, I’m still pissed about Culloden and am waiting for the British to give us Scots back our independence, too.)

    Let me know how it goes…

  51. “SHUT UP! That’s why!

    Gotcha 😉

    But since you asked, they say you have your head up your ass and it’s time for you turn of the pretend outrage and MSNBC. 😀
    Your self-righteous indignation is sounding like it did after the Giffords shooting. And Obama not been playing games it would be a non-issue — so thanks for choosing to do the right thing again. 🙄

  52. The CIA mingles with Israel and the Arab nations. They were monitoring OBL’s communications up until 9/11.

    And? When you have to rely on others as primary sources of intel, rather than as corroborating sources, you’re pretty much hosed, but since the CIA has been HUMINT deficient for decades…

    By whose design?

    Jaime Gorelick’s.

    Both NORAD and the FAA were flat outwitted.

    Repeating a naked assertion without anything to back it up doesn’t make it any more true than the first time that you said it.

  53. I’m not letting this one go until the Christian hating bigots on this very page, with the unmitigated gall to accuse us Christians of trying to establish a theocracy like Rutherford, answer for their baloney:

    Read and observe at your own risk Rutherford. Now you tell me if there’s a danger of theocracy as you’ve predicted, how do those poor, poor oppressed people get away with this? Hypocrite…

    Christians mock Gays at shocking Easter Service

    http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2011/04/27/christians-mock-gays-at-shocking-easter-service/

  54. Repeating a naked assertion without anything to back it up doesn’t make it any more true than the first time that you said it.

    Outwit: 1. To surpass in cleverness or cunning; outsmart.

    The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is an agency of the United States Department of Transportation with authority to regulate and oversee all aspects of civil aviation in the U.S.

    North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD, /ˈnɒræd/ NORR-ad) is a joint organization of Canada and the United States that provides aerospace warning, air sovereignty, and defense for the two countries.

    So, if the assertion is false, then maybe you can better explain the function of those two entities and how they were not outsmarted. Dress it anyway you want. A pig is still a pig, even with lipstick.

  55. Tex –

    Trying to reduce the extent of Dominionism in America to a blog post would be like asking someone to “explain evolution” or “explain aviation” or “explain physics” in a single post.

    If you have any question that there is a well-funded, well-organized movement afoot to not only rewrite America’s history “proving” it is a christian nation but to make it so, I suggest you do a little self-education. Here would be a good place to start:

    http://godsownparty.com/blog/7-must-read-books-dominionism-in-america/

    After you have studied a little, call me. Perhaps I can arrange a little field trip to “Liberty” “University” – two oxymorons for an ox-moron’s attempt at building a college in Lynchburg. We can tour the full-scale-mockup of the Supreme Court there – the stated purpose of which is the training of christian lawyers to argue before the Supreme court and CHANGE ESTABLISHED LAW.

    You gotta be f’in kidding me, man…

  56. Like I said Tigre. Rutherford loves this issue and doesn’t want the birther thing to go away. The longer he can draw out the feigned outrage, the more Rutherford and his “progressive” party can get to the two things they do well – pure political demagoguery and fear mongering to pander for the vote. It’s their only hope because the path were on is going to collapse. That is imminent.

    These secondary issues allow Rutherford to deflect away the real issues we ought to be discussing, including just how wrong Obama supporters were in 2008 about everything of substance.

    Progressives are left with Barack is unsuccessful because whitey never gave him a chance; Barack is unsuccessful because Republicans are the party of “No’ and want Obama to fail; Barack is unsuccessful because of his predecessor, etc.. etc… etc…

    They can not and will not admit it is their own philosophical weaknesses and the resulting policies they have driven that are the underlying problems with this country. Obama is family to Rutherford, and Rutherford will go to his grave defending the Anointed One.

  57. Addendum:

    Fortunately there are people like Leah Burton and me on the case. It WILL NOT HAPPEN. I will be on their asses like a duck on a June bug.

  58. “the stated purpose of which is the training of christian lawyers to argue before the Supreme court and CHANGE ESTABLISHED LAW.”

    All lawyers are trained to do so. What’s your gripe?

  59. Tex, I just marvel at the MSNBC orgy of name calling in an attempt to claim some kind of moral victory through an alleged concession. Fucking pathetic. I watched Rutherford’s “buddy Crazy Larry” last night. What a boob.

    All in all, I want Rutherford to latch on to this proof of majority systemic racism. It’s a sad thing to watch. Puffing up over self professed non issues in an effort to claim moral/social superiority? It wreaks of desperation to find a distraction (while claiming the opposite). An unwillingness to confront the demons of their failed leadership and policies. And handed up to Rutherford by shitty script writer idiots like “Crazy Larry,” the Jerry Springers of evening broadcasting.

    I’d laugh harder if it weren’t so pathetic (and destructive).

  60. PF, your correction doesn’t change my question. What’s wrong with an agenda in advocacy? It’s the foundation of our legal system.

  61. That’s like saying that if I walk up behind you – taking advantage of the fact I may move freely in this country, without having to tell anyone who I am, where I’m going or what my business is – and I slit your throat from behind, it’s your fault because I “outwitted” you.

    That is a poor analogy, Jim. We had OBL under surveillance. The WTC was a known target. Airline security and the FAA are/were proactive in surveillance to prevent hijacking and domestic terrorism involving aircraft. Consider the enormity of the deception and resulting devastation. This wasn’t a random and spontaneous act like you infer.

    the problem is that these murderers were religious nutcases with a seething hatred that they acted upon by purposely snuffing out the lives of thousands of non-combatants.

    That is an unfounded assertion not based in fact. Hearsay.
    The FBI has not made that case. As a matter of fact, it has no case against any of the purported “murderers” named.

  62. There is nothing wrong with advocacy, and they may advocate anything they wish. Unfortunately what they advocate is contrary to the long-established “wall of separation between church and state.”

    (Excuse me; I have to go and bow toward Charlottesville. Thank you Mr. Jefferson, so very very much.)

    There, that’s done. I feel renewed.

    No, they can advocate anything, including taking puppies to the abortion mill, or whatever that comparison was – it’s just contrary to what our Constitution allows, Fortunately, there are many of us who are watching this Dominionist movement very carefully to make sure these unconstitutional things never happen, since this president – who swore to uphold the Constitution – and several of his predecessors apparently have never read the goddamned thing.

    (Constitutional scholar my ass…)

  63. PFesser – a garden variety religious bigot, who uses as proof seven books written from the same cloth of seven atheists, pantheists, secularists, and a host of other names. That’s your proof engineer? Come on. You can do better than that.

    Provide us the executive summary of your own research….that shouldn’t be a difficult task for an intellect as well grounded as you, should it?

    Explain it to us….prove it to us. Show me where this ‘Dominion’ exists, before we even get into our “rewritten” history.

    ——–

    Pfesser, you like to invoke charges of logical fallacies? How about the invariable confirmation bias of your ilk, always finding the proverbial bogeyman of Christian intolerance around every corner, with the new tolerance of atheism as sacrosanct?

    I find most of your ilk Pfesser schizophrenic and delusional – bullies for the cause, you included, who have packed the courts as you’ve packed the school boards, which unfortunately are stacked in many regions to enforce the jackboot tactics. Happens all the time – super majority votes overturned, as just happened in my state with one feckless federal judge. More money poured down the rat hole of a failed public education system.

    Blowback from the years of Madeline Murray O’Hare Mr. Pfesser. That is what you are witnessing. This so called wall of separation that you’ve rammed through the courts, twisting the norms, run up the flag pole in 1948 by an incredibly liberal Supreme Court, has come full circle and will be called for its liberal transgressions.

    The Constitution is secular, as was its intent. But there is no doubt it is a nation founded by predominately Christians, who had they had wanted a theocracy would have stayed under the auspices of King George, or established this theocracy you fear 150 years before your birth. Only fools try to dispute that.

  64. Well, when pinky starts lynching “youthful” blacks as payback

    Could you please remind me of when lynching became an appropriate response to criminal activity? Blacks who beat up on whites are criminals. The answer is to toss them in the already predominantly black penal system. Don’t you agree? 😉

  65. As for the McDonalds incident, Tex your claim that the assailants probably couldn’t define transgender if you asked them to misses the point. At least according to change.org, there has been an increasing incidence of transgender beat-downs particularly in or near restroom facilities. The reason is that these folks have not fully transitioned to their gender reassignment and tend to look like run of the mill transvestites, inviting scorn from folks who don’t want a man in the ladies room.

  66. BiW Politifact states that John McCain spent 1.3 million in lawyer fees. Mmmm was that defending attacks about being born in the Panama Canal?

    The story labels the “fact” as false. And any story that begins with “Donald Trump says…” should be immediately dismissed.

    Sorry dude … your 2 million is speculation pure and simple and not backed up by fact. Move on.

  67. R, the explanations concerning the incident that I have seen (including the police incident reports themselves) don’t identify the transgender issue as the motivating factor or the use of the “wrong” restroom.

  68. Don’t know and can’t speak for them. Curious. Why should it matter in this discussion?

    OK, now you’ve lost me. I’ve been accused of “playing the race card” and when I ask you how your black relatives perceive this, you don’t understand the question.

    Why should it matter? Well, we are passing souls on the anonymous Internet. I was wondering if flesh and blood folks for whom you have love and admiration have any concerns with the birther issue vis-a-vis race. And then, in the face of that, why do you find it such a hard thing to grok?

  69. Huck do you honestly believe that a white President whose father was French would trigger a hunt for his “real” birth certificate to prove he was born in Maine and not Paris? Do you REALLY think that?

  70. The legal matter of Hawaii being a “state” is still left unaddressed I see.

    Sorry Poolman … didn’t mean to ignore it. On the contrary, I get a major kick out of the flavor you lend to the conversation. I haven’t had a chance to peruse your link. Leave it to you to take my absurd coda and run with it. 🙂

  71. The answer is to toss them in the already predominantly black penal system. Don’t you agree?

    A “well deserved” predominantly black penal system, that obviously isn’t predominant enough. About 2-3 million more ‘predominants’ might make a dent is restoring some semblance of order.

    Of course, with rabid animals like that, my decision would be a huge dose of Phenobarbital and a cheap pine box.

  72. No offense to any group or race, but IMHO it only takes a little casual observation to realize that black males in America have a very serious testosterone problem vis a vis agression. You see it on the street, you see it in the prisons themselves. I have a stepdaughter who is a public defender and her clients are overwhelmingly: young. black. men. She says that unfortunately most of the clients are really guilty and they end up in jail. There is of course the occasional mistake, but she and her idealistic colleagues fight like hell, but the sad fact is that most of these guys are in jail because they belong there.

    Not very PC, but the truth, I believe.

  73. “Huck do you honestly believe that a white President whose father was French would trigger a hunt for his “real” birth certificate to prove he was born in Maine and not Paris? Do you REALLY think that?”

    Yes. I believe that any president who’s father was known to be from another country, who had spent his youth in various countries, and who is as disliked as Barack Obama, would have faced the same level of scrutiny regarding his place of birth. That he took such measures to hide the proof did not help him, IMO. As unfortunate as you might think it is that he have to deal with it at all, it would have never gone this far had he just done years ago what he ended up doing anyway.

    I will go further and add that I have absolutely no problem with any potential president being asked to prove their place of birth if it is legitimately being questioned. And, while I never really doubted Obama’s citizenship, I do think it was a legitimate question because of his background. If such facts were not important, the Framers wouldn’t have worried about them.

  74. Fortunately, there are many of us who are watching this Dominionist movement very carefully to make sure these unconstitutional things never happen, since this president – who swore to uphold the Constitution – and several of his predecessors apparently have never read the goddamned thing.

    This one is as muddled headed as Graychin.

    I assume these goose stepping fascist don’t even realize the Letter to the Danbury Baptist Church was for the assurance to the leaders of the church that jackboots in secular authority would not be interfering or meddling in the affairs of the church ala King George.

    Complete rewrite easily determined by reading a three paragraph letter – from the supposed Christian hater himself Thomas Jefferson. Strange how this “humanist” is so reverent to the church. Hmmm…. I challenge anybody here to read the Danbury Baptist Church 1802 letter if interested, and see if any of you think that reads like PFesser would like us to believe it reads – for the church to butt out. I think you’ll find just the opposite.

    ——–

    I’m telling you, these humanist types are the most feeble, pathetic people on earth. But boy are they vocal. I think we’ve let them overstep their bounds and probably should just start taking things into our own hands as they’ve pack the courts with more militant humanists out of the PFesser mold. Only thing that keeps me from starting the bonfire is I kind of doubt Jesus would approve. 😐

    For Rutherford and PFesser’s sake, they have no idea how incredibly fortunate they are to have the real protective wall called Jesus Christ and His Word. Conscience is such a difficult thing to practice sometimes when your foes are so personally bankrupt.

  75. “I assume these goose stepping fascist don’t even realize the Letter to the Danbury Baptist Church was for the assurance to the leaders of the church that jackboots in secular authority would not be interfering or meddling in the affairs of the church ala King George.”

    Silly me. I thought it meant exactly what it said. Thanks for interpreting it to get the “real” meaning.

    “Complete rewrite easily determined by reading a three paragraph letter – from the supposed Christian hater himself Thomas Jefferson.”

    David Barton, is dat you? Which history is you re-writing now?

  76. p.s. TJ was never a “Christian hater,” or claimed to be. He was aware, however, of what happens when the church is allowed to meddle in the affairs of government and did the appropriate things to be sure that didn’t happen. (Thank you again, Sir.)

    As best we can tell, his take on religion was rather complex. He often used religious phraseology and referred to “god.” I don’t believe he ever declared himself atheist or even agnostic, but viewed IMHO religion in the abstract – certainly I don’t believe he took any of it literally. That is MY take on the Great Man; I am but a very amateur study in his thought processes.

    You might find the following amusing, if you have not seen it before:

    During a dinner honoring Nobel Prize winners from the Western Hemisphere on April 29, 1962, President John F. Kennedy famously said, “I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone.”

    To which I add…Amen.

  77. Sorry dude … your 2 million is speculation pure and simple and not backed up by fact. Move on.

    You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

    I never said 2 Million Dollars. You read the figure YOU wanted.

    Go back. Find me saying “2 Million Dollars”. Go Ahead, I’ll wait.

    Then go back and re-read the Politi-Fact Article, the one that is long on speculation and short on, you know, actual facts to back its conclusion, which is only correct if you agree with the presumption that a larger campaign would cost considerably more tio shut down than the other candidate’s campaign…a “fact” not proven, and one that amounts to pure speculation. I’ll admit that my own conclusions were also guesses, but they are informed by actually, you know, being an attorney, and having dealt in the past with some of the suits from his chosen lawfirm, and not being an Obama cheerleader, or a member of the journalistic guild and its much vaunted eleventy million layers of fact checking.

  78. PFesser,

    Your history is as misplaced as your bigotry…

    the church is allowed to meddle in the affairs of government and did the appropriate things to be sure that didn’t happen.

    I suppose you don’t recognize that King George nominated himself as King of the Church too? See, the idea of a theocracy is an abomination to Christians, contrary to your abject stupidity. This very nation is founded on that principle.

    I know Mr. Madelyn “PFesser” O’Hare you so badly want to believe a bunch of godless, militant humanists such as yourself broke away from the King of England to be removed the “yoke” of religion. But that’s not the accurate historical record Mr. O’Hare. If memory serves, 29 of the Founding Fathers had theological degrees.

    For instance, Dr. John Witherspoon was George Washington’s boss. Did you know he moonlighted as the best known Gospel Evangelist of the time? Does that sound like some secular humanist that hobnobbed with atheists, hostile to acts of public worship?

    Can you explain to me why Congress did and still does open with prayer? Can you explain to me why virtually every corner of our 13 colonies is dotted with houses of worship predating the Declaration of Independence?

    Some simple things here Madelyn maybe you can answer for us?

  79. Tex –
    “I suppose you don’t recognize that King George nominated himself as King of the Church too? See, the idea of a theocracy is an abomination to Christians, contrary to your abject stupidity. This very nation is founded on that principle.”

    Shane! Come back!

    Let’s try to get back on track again. We’re not talking about King George or the Church of England; we’re talking about the United States.

    I’m glad it’s an abomination to christians. Then it won’t be difficult to prevent it from happening, will it, since we are all on the same side?

    “I know Mr. Madelyn “PFesser” O’Hare”…..

    That’s not my name.

    “so badly want to believe a bunch of godless, militant humanists such as yourself broke away from the King of England to be removed the “yoke” of religion. But that’s not the accurate historical record Mr. O’Hare.”

    I never said that. Show me where I said that. Once again, don’t puss out with, “That’s what you meant, believe, want, fill in the blank…” Straw man again.

    “If memory serves, 29 of the Founding Fathers had theological degrees.”

    I won’t dispute that since I don’t know and am too lazy to look it up. What’s your point? They had fishing poles, too, but they didn’t want to make us all fishermen.

    “Can you explain to me why Congress did and still does open with prayer? Can you explain to me why virtually every corner of our 13 colonies is dotted with houses of worship predating the Declaration of Independence?”

    Why did you shit your pants when you were young, but don’t do it now?

    You got older and learned better. (That’s a joke)

    Once again, you are conflating “separation of church and state” with “hatred of religion.” They are not the same thing. Religion is welcome in this country; it is just not welcome to stick its tentacles into the government.

    It’s really just that simple.

    See, I didn’t call you even ONE name…aren’t I a nice guy?

  80. During a dinner honoring Nobel Prize winners from the Western Hemisphere on April 29, 1962, President John F. Kennedy famously said, “I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone.”

    From one famous philanderer bragging on the historical exploits of one slave banging other. Did Kennedy say that during the Bay of Pigs, or when his Pappy was cavorting with Nazis and putting his father-in-law in the grave after stealing his bank? I’m sorry Mr. O’Hare, but I don’t lend much faith in the opinions of a family that gave old sis the frontal lobotomy and us Senator Teddy Kennedy. I’ll assume undoubtedly JFK was unaware of Franklin, or Jay, or Washington, Madison, Hamilton…. The list goes on.

    I think what we are experiencing here is a very selective process laying designation of most favored status. Jefferson, though a great thinker, was an awfully troubled man and died a broken man, never fully recovering from his beloved wife’s death. It was then Jefferson begin to blame God – a common malady amongst the fence straddlers. But Jefferson was hardly the secular humanist you like to make him Madelyn when he helped pen our Founding Documents. Sorry, I’m not buying your made up quotes you parrots drag out of the left-side of the closet.

    So let me commit the ultimate act of heresy in the liberal humanist circles you run Mr. O’Hare. You can pass this on to your godless pals as they faint. Thomas Jefferson is not worthy of my worship Gasp! In fact, I think much of Jefferson’s popularity is rather recent, as in 20th century lore because Jefferson fits the appropriate caricature of godless humanist. That’s not based on my opinion, but my great grandfather who died several years ago at the age of 99 who gave me the scoop.

    That must stun you Madelyn, as it did once when I told Rutherford that after further consideration, Franklin Roosevelt was not only a highly overrated President, I don’t even consider him a marginally good President. He bought the vote, much as Obama buys the vote. Gasp! But that doesn’t fit the scholarly Keynesian narrative very well popular in elite intellectual circles.

  81. Let’s try to get back on track again. We’re not talking about King George or the Church of England; we’re talking about the United States.

    Sport, I don’t think you even have the wheels to roll on the track. You’ve got shit for brains and clay for feet, you’re exceptionally good at obtuseness, ducking and deflection; but I’m not seeing the intellectual honesty and capacity for deep thought here Madelyn. Maybe I’ll shorten my posts to one question at a time to better acclimate your minute attention span.

    Let’s try this again. We are talking about the who, why, how, and what this country was founded upon. Therefore Madelyn, now listen up: it is necessary to back up and reconsider why our founding fathers floated over ocean blue to declare independence. Get it?

    Religion is welcome in this country; it is just not welcome to stick its tentacles into the government.</blockquote?

    So why do we open Congress with a prayer? Why do we pay for priests, preachers, and now imams in the military? Why do we allow the Fed to print, "In God We Trust" instead of "In Jefferson We Trust." Why is it necessary to remove crosses and semblances of historical faith from our mottoes and seals that long predate your godless ACLU ilk? Why do we allow crosses on our veteran's Graves? Why does even President Bozo Obama end many speeches with God Bless America?

    Those are all “tentacles” of historical significance tying foundation to principle to present you conveniently ignore Madelyn.

    See, I’ve got a million questions you are not answering.

    Nice guy? No, just a another mannerly prick.

  82. 😳 God works in mysterious ways. Those typos are a direct result of me teasing Mr. Madelyn O’Hare – I’m sure of it. 🙂

  83. Hey Brother Rabbit and Brother El Tigre, I cashed out of silver today. No sense getting greedy. 😈 Of course, you’re looking at the genius that recovered about 5% of the value of is Sun MicroSystems investment. Win some, lose some.

    AGQ PROSHARES TRUST II ULTRA SILVER 28 365.2590 +0.97%

    Market Value – 10,227.25
    Cost Basis – 6,823.48
    Unrealized Gain = 3,403.77

    ROI = 49.9% (one month or thereabouts)

    I think I like this commodity trading stuff. To hell with Exxon Mobil. I’m going to go buy me some uranium certificates. 🙂

  84. Rutherford,

    All philosophers are men. Poolman is a man. Poolman must be a philosopher.

    That’s your boring logic with your racism shit and birthers.

    Did many Obama hatin’ racists jump on the birther bandwagon?

    Of course they did! That would be a dream come true for a guy who hates Obama because of his race.

    But, that doesn’t make the birther issue racist. Any politician who came out of nowhere and who has a sketchy dead beat Dad from the 3rd world would have a birther issue.

    You went to Haavaaad? Your logic sucks.

    The birther angle was sexy to wide assortment of people who wanted to punk Obama.

    Poor little black Obama. Everybody is so rough on him because he is black.

    Blah!

    Mean while your asshole President’s blatant assault on the middle class goes parabolic. Your poor little black President’s monetary policy is bordering on economic warfare on any honest stiff living pay check to pay check.

    I thought Dems were for the little guy?

  85. “Let’s try this again. We are talking about the who, why, how, and what this country was founded upon. Therefore Madelyn, now listen up: it is necessary to back up and reconsider why our founding fathers floated over ocean blue to declare independence. Get it?”

    Well, actually they didn’t float over to declare independence. They floated over for a variety of reasons, probably the most important of which was to be able to practice their own particular brand of religious intolerance, having been run out of most of Europe. That would start about 1620 or thereabouts. Independence was declared 1776 or so, which would have been about five generations later, so they didn’t float to be independent at all – the floaters had no idea or intent to be independent of Britain.

    As for Congress, et al, I really don’t know. Tradition? Maybe it’s like the appendix – not useful, really, but no reason to take it out unless you have to. Veterans’ graves? No problem there; that’s their religion. Jews, you might notice, will have Stars of David on their graves.

    As for removing symbols predating the ACLU – try to get back on track. The ACLU is not the issue and has nothing to do with it; you brought that up, nobody else. As for getting rid of them, you have to correct mistakes when you find them; you may not find them all right away. But the govt, and the Supreme Court is working on those mistakes; eventually they will get them all. I’m patient…

    While I’m thinking of it, I will concede (because I don’t know) that as you say, many of the important Founding Fathers may have had strong religious training, since that was the majority of what was available then. But stop to consider that these very same men went to great pains to assure that said religion was NOT included in the government they subsequently formed. Hmmm….maybe they had seen what happens when you mix politics and religion. Get out that stake, boys!

  86. Good for you, Tex. Its hard to argue with profit like that!

    My greedy ass wishes I waited until today to sell that May call. Greed is a nasty beast. It tries to rain on all victory parades.

    That being said, I think silver hoarding is about to go mainstream.

    One cool thing about my current job is I get a good feel for the middle class street. I’m hearing the kids talk about their Dads’ silver coins.

    I’m not sure what the ramifications of this is, to be honest.

    Paper silver pending physical delivery might get sketchy.

  87. Man, I tell you dudes one thing. It took me 37 years to understand that money is power.

    I loath spending money now. I see each dollar as a unit of potential instead of a unit of consumption.

    My wife doesn’t get it. She would not back down on new bed room furniture. I told her I will use plastic shelving and put a 1500 dollar September call bet on Cisco. She wouldn’t budge.

  88. R –

    If you get tired of Tex and my bantering, let us know, but for now, I’m having a ball…

    So, Tex, I think we can all concede that I have been very patient in answering all your questions, even if I have to disentangle them from a veritable word salad most of the time…so when do I get to ask you questions?

    If you are so inclined, answer this one: Why is it that, under ordinary circumstances, evil people may do good or evil things and good people will only do good things – but for good people to do evil things it always takes religion?

  89. So, Tex, I think we can all concede that I have been very patient in answering all your questions, even if I have to disentangle them from a veritable word salad most of the time…so when do I get to ask you questions?

    That must be parody. You tell me to get on track and then remove yourself 4-5 generations. So what do you want to debate now? Irreligious Pilgrims? How about humanist Puritans?

    I thought this goon named Graychin would bend history. He was a rank amateur next to this. Listen up again Madelyn. Focus. Look me in the eyes and think. Stand on two feet, shoulders back, shit cleared out of the hairy ears. You ready?

    Okay. Good.

    The symbolism of our mottoes and our seals gives the original context of the history they were written in. See, you don’t need to fudge, lie, twist, bend, walk in circles, propagandize to read a seal. That’s why it is important.

    And on most of those seals Madelyn, you will find references to crosses, biblical verses, religious symbolism, and the like. Now that way, you don’t need to go “google” to find some bastardized website to provide proof of your preconceived notions.

    For instance, do you know who founded most of Ivy League Universities Madelyn? I’ll give you a hint.

    Here’s Harvard’s motto: Veritas, christo et ecclesiae

    Truth for Jefferson Christ and the Church

  90. Why is it that, under ordinary circumstances, evil people may do good or evil things and good people will only do good things – but for good people to do evil things it always takes religion?

    I could answer you a number of ways. Take your pick…

    I’ve never met any good person who just does good things, so you can scratch that – they don’t exist. Good is a relative term. A figment of the humanist imagination.

    I assume you think of yourself as “good” Madelyn. Yet in my eyes you are inherently evil in your motives. Therefore you lack “religion”, do some good things I’m sure, and still have evil in your nature.

    ————

    Christ answered your question – and it does not require the belief in “religion” – and I’ll assume for your sake you understand Christians don’t consider Christianity “religion”, as more often than not the Bible refers to religion in the negative context. Christianity is a relationship. And that is not nuanced.

    ———–

    So here’s your answer Madelyn:

    If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. ~ 1 John 1:8

    As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one. ~ Romans 3:10

    That’s why religion or not, none of are righteous – not even Thomas Jefferson. So maybe you might understand why we seek Jesus and not the Doubting Thomas as standard Madelyn?

  91. Kotex –

    I need some advice – I shall call you that as long as you refuse to show me the respect of using MY handle, or should I ignore all that and take the high road?

    Anybody else care to weigh in on that? I’m about 50-50…

    On another front…

    “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

    Ah, quoting from the Book of Jewish Fables. Sorry, that which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.

    Dismissed. Got anything else?

    “maybe you might understand why we seek Jesus”

    I seek whatever is true and can be proven to a reasonable level by evidence, lest mine own eyes be deceived by the comfortable lie, causing me to ignore the uncomfortable truth. I don’t do the “It’s magic! – that’s all there is to it; god said it and then, well, er, *magic* happened!” Sorry. Too thin for me.

    (Paraphrasing my Boy Mohandas: I actually like your Christ; it’s your Christians I have a problem with; they are so unlike your Christ.)

    So, help me out here…if YOUR holy book says anyone who does not believe in your god is a blasphemer (or whatever) and doomed to Hell, and all (or nearly all) the other holy books say the same thing, does that mean *everybody* is going to Hell? How does that work? What about little black babies in the bush who die before the good crusading missionaries can fly in on their little aeroplanes and force-feed them a little godliness in exchange for food? Do they go too? How does this all work? Somehow it seems so contradictory if you drill beneath the “I BELIEVE!” part.

    I’m sure you can explain it.

  92. Thats hilarious. I got my ass beat by carnies when I was around 11 for stealing ride tickets. They would pay me and my buddies pocket change to ride our bikes up to the store. I got talked into stealing the tickets by some older kids.

    While I deserved the beating, those guys were scum of the earth. Couldn’t stand them back then, cant stand them now.

  93. Kotex? I like it Madelyn. It’s my favorite part of the human anatomy. Anything that draws me closer, I’m game, with the added bonus, coming from you, any insult is a badge of honor. It’s when you start approving that I will reevaluate.

    The book of Jewish fables? ** YAWN ** Is that your best insult an atheist can do? Come on sport – even the idiots at Fat Grannies were more effective in pejorative than that. You disappoint me. And to think I thought you were Fat Granny’s “A” student. So far, you’ve been just marginal.

    See Madalyn, I have no intent of attempting to prove truth to a blind buffoon like you. A futile effort, of which I don’t have the energy. It’s much easier to shake the dust and mock you. I’ll just point out that you are the benefactor of living in a nation where most people predominately call themselves Christians, and undoubtedly too stupid to recognize that fact.

    In the unlikely event Christians decide to really screw up and go all jihadi, you might be numero uno on the list of headless horseman burning at the stake. You better hope we continue to play your doormat, because I’m afraid you would find yourself vastly outnumbered Superman.

    So Madelyn P. Fesser, set this to memory. I don’t care whether you see hell, unlike some of my more sympathetic Christian friends like BIC.

    To make the realistic guess, I figure Madalyn P. Fesser, assuming he was there with the Vietnam Vets, has got 10, maybe 20 years more to mock. Then, poof…

    So my advice to you is to scream loud, mock often, covet everything you can, and live life to the fullest before they divvy up your stuff. It ends soon with either the finiteness of your worthless life, or the infinite damnation of your soul. Either way, it ends ugly for you and justice is served.

    So if you think you’re going to get the soft sell, the begging witness, the lesson in grace, the offended lily, better find somebody else Madalyn. I’m not motivated to do anything with you but throw stones at your fat head.

  94. I have been hearing from numerous sources that we are going to have some serious mid country ground shaking this next month. If the tornadoes don’t learn ya, them earthquakes and meteors just might. Hang on to whatever rock you can. 😎

  95. Madalyn P. Fesser,

    I actually like your Christ; it’s your Christians I have a problem with; they are so unlike your Christ.

    The tired and worn out Ghandi analogy – another yawner. Can’t you find something new? I think you got the Hollywood version of the polished Ghandi watching too many movies. Ghandi also drank his own urine – sounds like he’s somebody you could relate.

    So we can end this tired and worn out Ghandi trivia – note. Calcutta, India is still hell on earth. I like Ghandi’s nice vision and his message of peace; I just don’t like his Hindu results. Men like Ghandi are simply a repeat of history – the first apostles and what they met with in Greece.

    22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

    24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

    29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

    32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.”

    Ghandi undoubtedly didn’t know Christ like Ghandi thought he knew Christ. Because though Christ told us to be salt and light to the earth, Christ also hung on a cross because we Christians and Jews are miserable failures at living up to perfection. We simply live life better than anyone else.

    That Ghandi was too shallow to understand who Christ was, and He is, and what He shall be? Nothing but a demonstration of Ghandi’s own superficial nature and biblical ignorance.

    Like you Madalyn P. Fesser, Ghandi never understood grace or grasped you don’t measure the infallible Creator by the weakness of fallible created. That is the basic premise of the entire message.

    See Madalyn P. Fesser, I understand your allegiance to and admiration of Ghandi. Really I do – you share something in common. Had Ghandi been capable of any measure of depth, what he should have done is to judge the results of his religion of Hinduism against those who claim Christ as their savior.

    Then the truthfulness of the message would have been more readily apparent.

  96. Oh, and one thing I forgot to answer Pfesser.

    How does Christ judge those who never knew of Him? No theologian in the world can fully answer that question. I could speculate….but prefer not to. Have to guess that any God that omnipotent, omnicient, and omnibenevolent to create a universe and put up with a sinner like me, will have no problem in providing perfect judgment.

    But babies? I can answer that easily…

    for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

    Grace…there is an age of accountability, which you passed long ago Mr. Pfesser.

    I think that answers all your questions. If I missed something, mea culpa.

  97. Al-Poolman, I really am trying to ignore you. So hopelessly untalented, so profoundly inane, so infinitely lost, so totally inept, I always have this sick sense I’m keeping company with someone so hopelessly deceived, I hear echoes of, “Lord, Lord, did I not prophecy in your name?”

    However, as long as your questions are directed at me and related to the debate of faith, I will attempt to make elementary explanation that even you might understand.

    But please understand it is so much easier to explain to the half-way lucid capable of adult conversation like PFesser, than the idiot apprentice who believes himself enlightened, but I’ll try.

    It doesn’t matter whether people mock Christ or reject Christ. The end game is the same. Does that make sense Wizard ❓

  98. Muffy,

    Tex I think your stalker is jealous.

    Like gum stuck to the bottom of your shoe. You can scrape most of it off, but the sticky residue always remains. 😉

  99. “R”,

    Simple question which is not original, but I thought legitimate I heard.

    Do you understand the irony of Obama telling us he doesn’t have time to address silly issues like a birth certificate, while appearing on the Oprah show?

    Just wondering if you understand the crux of why some of us, no matter the massive and irreparable damage this man has caused our nation, can find real humor in the claims of the ‘greatness’ and ‘intelligence’ of Obama?

  100. “OK, now you’ve lost me. I’ve been accused of “playing the race card” and when I ask you how your black relatives perceive this, you don’t understand the question.”

    No. I understand your question. The problem is you don’t understand mine.

    You’re hoping that I will tell El Tigre’s black family members perceive racism to validate your bullshit accusation. It would be extra pointed if that were the case becuase they are my family, so if I disregard their sensitvities that proves I am incapable of compassion and understanding of a serious racial issue that should hit home. I am not fucking retarded.

    What you don’t get is that no matter what they might think or feel about it, we’re not talking about whether offense is taken. We’re talking about the motives of the birthers, not self-proclaimed victims (such as youself). You’ve been trained to believe that the test for racism is whether someone claims to feel that they have been subjected to it. It’s the logical fallacy that defines the left’s approach to abuse of the race card.

    Because one is black does not mean they hold a special credential to determine another’s motives. The only credential they hold is to forumulate their own perceptions and reactions.

    So, you may assume that what I said my family members had said is accurate. They’re stupid, right?

    What an offensive question you’ve asked. And your motives are easy to ascertain.

  101. PF says, “You’re a lawyer, right? You can’t be serious [about the wall of seperation].”

    Cut the shit PF. How does it apply to legal training at Liberty College, legal advocacy and the judicial branch? Remember? Your premise? From what you’ve said, it doesn’t appear that you know what it means from a constituional standpoint. But perhaps my inability to see that you’re more learned and insightful than I’ve given you credit for makes me the hypocrite.

    So lay it on me.

  102. A TYPO! Make that prophesy in 123… (sigh)

    I hate that you can’t edit in WordPress. Guess I shouldn’t bitch since it’s free. Right Brother “R”?

  103. Tex, nice gain on the silver. Not bad for sitting on your ass (so to speak). But you can’t count the gain until you back out short term capital gains tax,trading costs, and Rabbit’s advisory fee! 😉

  104. BTW R, first comment from a black family member (it ain’t like the birther thing has been a topic of conversation):

    “Why the fuck didn’t he just release it long time ago instead of allowing this whole thing to continue? If was willling to show the short form [as proof of citizenship] what diffence would it make to show the long? He went through this so he could act all put out.”

    Beats me. I guess my relative is a self-loathing black.

  105. Tigre,

    Now you know better than to disrupt the group think of those whose lives are dependent upon the prism of refracting color.

    —-

    Yeah, that silver transaction was easy money. Hell, I was so lazy my broker friend did it for me and informed me later what he’d done with my blessing, then called this morning and said, let’s take it off the table for a time cause I’ll be in China until May 12th. Okay! 🙂 How’s that for using your noggin?

    You would think somebody with an MBA obtained when it was still a full two year degree, required thesis, and somewhat difficult to get in (now you can order them through the mail) would be a little more disciplined and interested in managing their money. I roll with the tide and the dead fish.

    But for every silver transaction, I’ve got an equally horrid story of a dog with fleas that cost me a small fortune. Motorola comes to mind. One thing I have figured out – 401K’s are great for accumulating money – not so great for making money. Diversity makes a nice hedge, but it is no way to invest for profit anymore.

    To be honest Tigre, I have absolutely no idea what it will take to retire. Not long ago, a million bucks sounded like a great deal of money. Over eight years with little or no debt, I still managed to run through a couple of hundred thousand somehow. College tuition, private K-12, insurance, appliances, and a wife’s car which was a step down from what we had grown accustomed to driving.

    Worse, I could be worth twice what I am now had I not told corporate America to shove it. 😡

    But then, I never would have made the Rutherford Lawson blog acquaintance. 😎 Heck, that’s got to be worth something.

  106. I’m not letting this one go until the Christian hating bigots on this very page …

    Tex, I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here. Who ever said Christians aren’t mocked? And hell, it is almost a given in gay culture to mock just about everything.

    The concerns I have about an American theocracy have to do with folks like BiW and others who are enamored with the idea of a divinely inspired Constitution and who I suspect would have no real problem with the folks in DC declaring Christianity the official American religion. I think that would probably sit pretty well with you too Tex.

    Personally, I don’t like it.

  107. since this president – who swore to uphold the Constitution – and several of his predecessors apparently have never read the goddamned thing.

    PF you have your right to be disgusted/disappointed with Obama but surely you don’t think he has Dominionism on his mind? The cornerstone of the progressive movement is maintaining that wall between church and state.

  108. R, the explanations concerning the incident that I have seen (including the police incident reports themselves) don’t identify the transgender issue as the motivating factor or the use of the “wrong” restroom.

    Maybe we’re talking about two different incidents.

  109. that black males in America have a very serious testosterone problem

    The problem with this statement PF is it implies some biological difference between black men and white men that make the former violent/criminal. I assume that is not your intent.

    The primary trigger of crime is poverty and desperation. Plain and simple. There are cultural problems in the ghetto but they didn’t happen overnight.

    Each of usindividually is responsible for our own behavior but when we look at the behavior of groups, we have to dig deeper into sociological causes and not write a whole group of people off.

  110. I thought Dems were for the little guy?

    Rabbit … you think the GOPhers are? Please wake up dude.

    I’ll grant you something. Virtually no one in Washington is for the little guy. The system is broken.

  111. It took me 37 years to understand that money is power.

    Maybe I misunderstand you but what planet have you been living on the past 37 years? OK … I’ll give you ten years to get acclimated. So what’s your excuse for the past 27 years?

    Of course money is power. But if I understand your conflict with the Mrs properly, you make the mistake of believing money has value in itself. It does not. It is powerful for what it buys … whether it be goods or influence. It does no f*cking good under your mattress.

  112. So, help me out here…if YOUR holy book says anyone who does not believe in your god is a blasphemer (or whatever) and doomed to Hell, and all (or nearly all) the other holy books say the same thing, does that mean *everybody* is going to Hell?

    PF I’ve wondered the same damn thing!

    The way I like to put it is …. what if the Muslims are right and the Christians are wrong? Everybody can’t be right. What if Tex signed up on the losing team?

    That’s why I dismiss ALL organized religions. I can’t figure God out and I contend no one else can either. Those who claim they can, engage in the ultimate arrogance.

  113. Tex, I will confess that Obama following up his finger wagging with a trip to Oprah and fund raisers did kinda tickle my funny bone.

    I’ve always said the man gets a D- in optics. 🙂

  114. The only credential they hold is to forumulate their own perceptions and reactions.

    Perception is reality. The only folks who can determine if something is offensive are the people offended.

  115. Tigre, I have the answer for your relative … or at least a good conjecture. I believe until now, Obama felt the way I felt, namely “I’ve given you legal proof of my citizenship. If that isn’t good enough for you then f*ck you. I’m not submitting to greater scrutiny than any of my predecessors had to.”

    Toss in the fact that Hawaii’s rules about releasing certain documents are bizarre to say the least, and you’ve got plenty of motivation to produce the short form and leave it at that.

    If Obama did not see independents (upon whom his reelection depends) slowly being drawn into this stupidity, he would never have capitulated.

    By the way, you quoted your relative’s attitude toward Obama’s reaction. You didn’t quote his/her opinion about birther motivation. But I have no problem with blacks who don’t find birthers offensive. No minority is monolithic. I’m puzzled that it doesn’t bother them but que sera sera.

  116. “Executive Summary: Two members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff ‘dis America’s hyper-aggressive imperialism … Newly-leaked documents show that innocent people were thrown into Gitmo because they wore Casio watches or were Al Jazeera reporters … Al Qaeda assassin worked for MI6 … And – yes – the Iraq war was for oil.”

    Four stories from the last week confirm what many have been saying for years: the war on terror is a farce.

    Military Brass Say Imperial Wars of Aggression are Hurting America

    I’ve said for years that the war on terror is weakening America.

    I’ve pointed out that experts say that the Iraq war has increased the threat of terrorism. See this, this, this, this, this, this, this and this.

    As I noted last year:

    The very hawkish and pro-war Rand Corporation – released a study in 2008 called “How Terrorist Groups End: Lessons for Countering al Qa’ida”.

    The report confirms that the war on terror is actually weakening national security. As a press release about the study states:

    “Terrorists should be perceived and described as criminals, not holy warriors, and our analysis suggests that there is no battlefield solution to terrorism.”

    Former U.S. National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski told the Senate that the war on terror is “a mythical historical narrative”. And Newsweek has now admitted that the war on terror is wholly unnecessary.

    Sheeple. Islamophobes. Lemmings. That light you see ahead is the karma train heading at you full steam. Maybe it’s that “pride cometh before a fall” moment. That may better suit the near future situation. Either way, it doesn’t bode well if what you’re invested in physically or spiritually is anything that can potentially burn. Make sure you’re fireproof.

    ~~~ ♪♫ Shake, baby, shake. ~~~ Maybe some birth pangs. ~~~

    I understand there is supposed to be a march on to Jerusalem next month originating from the Arab nations in protest of the occupation of Palestine. Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg was pressured into removing any groups that were organizing any of this on FB. We live in interesting times, indeed.

  117. R, in all of the time I’ve spent in your little world, this is by far, the worst defense you’ve ever made for your own product. Even when you’ve been factually dead wrong (we have many examples to choose from…) you follow your fraudulent facts as logically as any liberal can be expected to do.

    Not here. This boils down to nothing more than you being pissed that he was forced to clarify an issue. You, like him, thought you could get mileage out of the “birthers”, so you were more than happy to let the issue fester, because for you it was all about politics.

    Fine, whatever. We know very little about this man’s past and that has resulted in enourmous buyer’s remorse, and you know it.

  118. “I’m puzzled that it doesn’t bother them but que sera sera.”

    I’ll work on him to find the racism and outrage. 🙄 I guess direct him to MSNBC.

    (I think his attitude about the birthers is captured in his response R).

    But you don;t think for a minute I don;t see your racist motivations in asking the question. You never would’ve asked the same question of someone that didn;t have a mixed-race afmily. 😆 Or doesn’t mine count because it was “married into?” 😯

    Back to the royal wedding. Must be racist. Haven’t seen a single black — well other than the workers of course.

  119. Whoops, I forgot:

    “By the way, you quoted your relative’s attitude toward Obama’s reaction. You didn’t quote his/her opinion about birther motivation. But I have no problem with blacks who don’t find birthers offensive.”

    Perceptions are reality, Right?

    Case fucking closed! 😆

  120. “I’ve always said the man gets a D- in optics.’

    Perceptions are reality.

    (okay — I’ll quit. This is fun but just too easy.).

  121. R, the video is the same I recalled.

    The intersting aspect ia the “hate crimes component. With the passage of hate crimes laws, if you are white and get into a fight with a minority you could end up facing additional penalties; or if you are a heterosexual and get into a fight with a homosexual you could end up being tagged as a homophobe and face additional penalties. Both of these protected groups are championed by the left and the Obama administration.

    But that was not a white girl that was getting assaulted it was a transgendered guy. Now you see where this is going to get complicated for the Obama DoJ. Who do they protect?

    So, Obama might have to think about his “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” in trying to figure out who can pick on who without a hate crimes charge. So will the equal hands of justice applied by Holder sort all of this out? 🙄

  122. Desperation and poverty explains away black’s aggression? No, I don’t think so. And I have never seen a race where the women are even more aggressive and bullying than the men.

    Blacks seem to be uniquely singular in America burning down neighborhoods when angry or inciting riots, for instance.

    I believe it not necessarily genetic, but character, as we are witnessing the same thing with the Muslim religion throughout the world. Enough Muslims congregate here, like in Dearborn, and you will begin to see the same thing.

  123. You want an example of why we must defeat George Soros in 2012? I mean bury this mofos for an entire generation.

    Listen to this moron from the euphemistically called ‘Center for America Progress’, the George Soros shill foundation for Progressives. Not only does this moron not have his facts straight, his solutions to high oil rates would bring America to its needs in weeks. And I mean weeks.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/u-energy-plan-sell-oil-reserves-profits-invest-124232376.html%20?sec=topStories&pos=3&asset=&ccode=

    I really do believe it is the equally euphemistically called ‘progressives’ intent it to ruin America. Head shots…

  124. Hey Tigre or BIC, maybe even Gorilla. Somebody with some legal experience. You guys ever heard of this?

    [Obama] attended Harvard Law School at the height of something that it was promoting, education technique or a theory. It was called critical legal studies. Critical legal studies was in its ascendancy at Harvard Law when Obama was there. You can look it up. Just Google critical legal studies. It is out and out Marxism.

    In a nutshell, critical legal studies claims that law is just politics by other means. It is a way for the rich to keep the poor working man down and deny him opportunities for prosperity. That is what Obama was taught at Harvard and based on what he believes and is doing it looks to me like he probably did get good grades.

  125. Gorilla’s retort to this poorly posited post a definite worthy read….got to give kudos where it’s due.

  126. Everyone Rutherford when Obama and Hillary Rotten Clinton assured us that by isolating Iran, we were only assuring strengthening the regime? How we were going to sit at the table and conduct adult conversation?

    How’s that worked out?

    The report the minister of Intelligence provided — which cautioned of an especially dangerous outcome to these undertakings — is said to have disturbed Khamenei.

    Other reports from inside Iran point to the Obama administration’s continuation of privately approaching the Iranian officials, hoping to get them to return to negotiations on the nuclear issues. Clearly, sanctions have not achieved the goal of stopping Iran’s pursuit of nuclear weapons. This may explain why President Obama kept silent when Green leaders Mir Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karoubi were arrested in February, leading to mass protests across Iran on February 14, February 20, and March 1. Hundreds of thousands of Iranians protested.

    While the Iranians ignore the Americans, they are strengthening ties with China in secret oil deals.

    Obama and the Dimocratic party are dangerously incompetent in dealing with despot regimes. Completely vacuous. I’m beginning to believe not $7.00 gas or a collapsed economy, but a nuclear bomb in a major U.S. city will be the epiphany for the moonbat dimwits of Dimocratic Imbecilic Party (DIP) to understand the consequences of their abject stupidity.

    The wall of separation should be between Obama and his government teat bed wetters and the rest of us.

  127. By the way Al-Poolman. A thought occurred to me last night as you cheer lead against Israeli Jews on this board.

    You might take a momentary pause and pull your head out from your descending colon, then contemplate one very important fact.

    In the last 30 years, Israel has thwarted the nuclear ambitions of Iran, Iraq and Syria. Three of the most radical and unstable regimes in the world.

    When a boob isn’t smart enough to recognize friend from foe, you have become a liability to this nation.

  128. To bad Graychin still isn’t posting to the board. These immutable facts kind of blow away his economic prowess of Obama being Reagan. 🙄

    • GDP. In the seven quarters after the 1981-82 recession ended, the economy cranked out quarterly growth rates that averaged 7.1%. Under Obama, GDP growth has averaged a mere 2.8%.

    • Unemployment. Under Reagan, the unemployment rate had fallen to 7.5% by this point in the recovery. Under Obama, it’s still stuck at 8.8%.

    • Long-term unemployment. There were far fewer long-term unemployed by this point in the Reagan recovery; just 18% of the unemployed had been without a job 27 weeks or more. Under Obama, that figure is an astonishing 45%.

    • Consumer confidence. By this point in the Reagan recovery, the Conference Board’s Consumer Confidence Index had hit 100. Today, the index stands at just 65.4.

    • Deficits. Under Reagan, the federal deficit was trimmed to 4.8% of GDP by 1984. Under Obama, the deficit is expected to climb to 10.9% of GDP this year.

    Obama and his defenders like to say he inherited the worst downturn since the Great Depression and that things would have been worse still had he not acted. But the recession was almost over by the time he took office — and officially over just six months after that.

    So while Obama’s policies had little to do with bringing an end to the Great Recession, they’ve had everything to do with producing what is by far the worst economic recovery in the past 70 years.

    Hoax and Chains Baby…

  129. While this debate ultimately gets tiring, I do have to figure out how I will respond to Gorilla. Another post? A simple comment on his blog? Not sure yet. His article, while very well written, still does not quite get it.

    More later.

    P.S. Although kudos … G is right .. he was the blogger “who shall not be named”. 🙂

  130. Tigre, I’m truly sorry if you found my question offensive. You are the closest thing to another brotha on this board. As I stated in an earlier comment, I would like to NOT be the only black voice in this discussion and so I looked to you with clear emotional ties to blacks (not simply friendships) to give a perspective.

    As it turns out, I suspect the blacks in your family are as conservative as you are! 🙂 Viva la difference.

  131. Never heard of “critical legal studies.” Frankly, I’ve never heard of agenda-driven legal training like that mentioned by you and PF. We’ve got several Harvard law grads here. I’ll ask them and report what they say when I have the chance.

    Now is anyone familiar with the debacle for King and Spalding (an Atlanta monolith, however its the DC office under attack) and its withdrawal from representation of the House of Representatives in defense of the Defense of Marriage Act? It’s a liberal wet dream and and anyone with a shred of legal ethics’ worst nightmare.

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/04/028897.php

    Leading to this delicious response from the state of Virginia:

    “The Attorney General of Virginia has fired the firm from work it has been doing for the state since 2009. Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli sent King & Spalding a blistering letter which apparently was copied to the Washington Examiner:

    ‘King & Spalding’s willingness to drop a client, the U.S. House of Representatives, in connection with the lawsuit challenging the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) was such an obsequious act of weakness that I feel compelled to end your legal association with Virginia so that there is no chance that one of my legal clients will be put in the embarrassing and difficult situation like the client you walked away from, the House of Representatives.

    Virginia does not shy away from hiring outside counsel because they may have ongoing professional relationships with people or entities, or on behalf of causes that I, or my office, or Virginia as a while may not support. But it is crucial for us to be able to trust and rely on the fact that our outside counsel will not desert Virginia due to pressure by an outside group or groups.

    Virginia seeks firms of commitment, courage, strength and toughness, and unfortunately, what the world has learned of King & Spalding, is that your firm utterly lacks such qualities.’

    Ouch!

    (sorry I haven’t figured out how to block quote or format for easier reading).

    The legal community across the country is aghast, as am I.

  132. “As it turns out, I suspect the blacks in your family are as conservative as you are!”

    Not true. They’re just as gullible as you. 😆

  133. Shiite…I come back to read posts and noticed my first damn word is misspelled on the last post…. grrrrrrr

    TOO bad…

    The legal community across the country is aghast, as am I.

    Am I to read from Mr. Cuccinelli’s letter Tigre that you found that as grand as I did, and if so, most attorneys across America will agree?

    I will tell you that I feel like I have a pretty good feel for where this country stands. And as time goes on, I’ve come to recognize that there are a lot of professional attorneys out there who are not nearly as liberal as I originally though – you and BIC being the best example here; my friend at home being another.

    For a long time, I figured 90% of attorneys across America danced to the Bill Clinton school of Law and Truth – pervert and twist when necessary. But you and BIC have given me a shred of hope that there’s a real battle of philosophy within our jurisprudence, and the whole damn legal system isn’t as corrupt as I once thought.

  134. “In the last 30 years, Israel has thwarted the nuclear ambitions of Iran, Iraq and Syria. Three of the most radical and unstable regimes in the world.”-Tex

    That is a great point, if i may say so myself.

  135. “Maybe I misunderstand you but what planet have you been living on the past 37 years?”-R

    I agree. It’s amazing, isn’t. I guess what I’m saying is I was oblivious to the notion of opportunity cost.

    That furniture I’m buying is more then 1500 dollars. It’s also costing me 1500 dollars of potential.

  136. “Am I to read from Mr. Cuccinelli’s letter Tigre that you found that as grand as I did, and if so, most attorneys across America will agree?”

    Absolutely. The concept of abandoning a client because of political pressure, particularly this kind, is fundamentally wrong, wrong, wrong.

    I think WSJ summed it up pretty well initially.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704677404576285390111659146.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

    We’re (my firm) is horrified but laughing — it’s a PR nightmare for the King and Spalding that they clearly wanted to avoid. I do fair bit of work with and for K&S. I can tell you internally the reaction is virtual disgust. Pay no attention to what it says publicly.

    I don;t know where you formulated the opinion that lawyers were generally “Clintonesque.” In my experience is that lawyers political bents are generally reflective of the communities within which they work. My firm is split, but more conservative politically. Remember though that there’s a difference between liberal and conservative legal philosophy and political. For example, I think tort reform is a short sighted disaster based on the false premise that virtually all lawsuits are frivolous or result in absurd windfall judgments for plaintiffs. That just ain’t true.

    So you know, I (obviously) don’t practice personal injury and represent both plaintiffs and defendants. I see and advocate both sides. My biggest gripe is not with juries. It’s with the quality of the judiciary. More significantly, it’s the legislatures and enactment of ill-conceived, short-sighted, and populist legislation.

  137. “That furniture I’m buying is more then 1500 dollars. It’s also costing me 1500 dollars of potential.”

    Yeah. The potential of sleeping on the old couch if you don’t make the right choice! 😆

  138. Lol. True.

    On a side note, did you ever sincerely ask around about lawsuits involving Special Education? While I can only go by what I see in my little world, I have seen some major lawsuits.

  139. BTW, I personally represented a client in a case that called into question the scope of a proposed Georgia Constitutional amendment directed at the prohibition of same sex marriage. Although it involved a heterosexual couple, we (me and 2 of my partners) prevailed. From a legal standpoint, I know I never questioned that I was on the right side of the case. Not for a moment. I took some shit from ill-informed, non-lawyer buddies. But I was pleased with the outcome and what it stood for.

  140. Rabbit, truth be known, it was out of sight out of mind. I haven’t read of anything, and all practicing lawyers are tied into rags that discuss significant cases, verdicts and trends. I stay abreast of reported (that doesn’t mean newspaper “published, rather one that is “put in the books” in lay terms so to speak), reviewing recent decisions almost weekly.

    I’ll keep my eyes peeled. Do you have a news article I could look at as a point of reference? I frankly don;t even know what the nature of suits are that you are referring to.

  141. Tigre, sorry, I need that last comment (173) in baby steps — are you saying you took a side against legislation that would restrict same-sex marriage? I must have read that wrong.

  142. R, you read that right. But perhaps not for the reasons you are imagining. The legislation went too far and had unacceptable discriminatory result against homosexuals and their rights/freedom to contract.

  143. Frankly R, it’s an example of the short-sighted, ill-conceived legislation I was referring to in my prior comment.

  144. And incidentally, a particular gay rights group filed an amicus brief in my case. It was one of the best legal arguments I have seen briefed. Nowhere close to the skew and pejorative malarkey I expected. It was persuasive and I greed wholeheartedly with its analysis. I took its author to lunch when the dust settled. I offered him a job with our firm if he wanted it.

  145. Tigre totally gave Rutherford a boner over the fact that he represented gay people.

    Face it Rutherford, Tigre has black kin and is a hero in the gay community.

    Motherfucker is teflon when it comes to your race card PC bull shit.

  146. You know DR, I bet R would be surprised at how many of us don’t fit his preconceived notions.

    My brother-in-law is black. My wife is from India. My dad is a huge union guy and my mom is a pro-Dem teacher.

  147. “Hero in the gay community. . . ” 😆

    I wouldn’t overstate it. In fact, I would never repeat that!

    For the record, I have represented many gay clients. However, in the case I was referring to, the client was heterosexual. It just so happened that the application of the law created a peculiar result. It never should have been enacted and the legal arguments were objectively appealing to the gay community.

  148. R –
    “that black males in America have a very serious testosterone problem”

    ‘The problem with this statement PF is it implies some biological difference between black men and white men that make the former violent/criminal. I assume that is not your intent.’

    I personally think there *is* a biological difference, and you would have to be blind – perhaps intentionally – to not see it. Not PC, I understand, and of course opens me up to the tired old “racist” diatribe, but I am old enough, have enough experience and have thought about it enough that I will accept that risk.

    There is a “meme” in America, if you will, that anyone who dares touch the third rail (race, sex, age) is de facto an unreconstructed racist, sexist, age-ist and will be instantly electrocuted by everyone else who is more modern and un-bigoted. Of course this means you can’t discuss these things frankly, and I believe age, sex, race are valid topics.

    Let me ask you to do a little thought experiment, and if I get no traction I shan’t speak of this topic again.

    Species are loosely defined as being defined by the ability of its members to interbreed, but not with other species usually. Varieties, OTOH, are able to do so freely, but are still different. Dobermans and Shepherds are varieties, Arabians and Palominos are varieties, etc. So are there in my mind varieties of humans. Can beagles and terriers interbreed? You bet. Do they have the same capabilities and TEMPERAMENTS? I think not.

    Then why do we think all human differences are situational? C’mon man – Vietnamese have been here for just a generation and they are going like crazy. Indians (Hindu type – not Big Chief type) have been here a short while; I just finished a 5-year stint in EE school; they absolutely dominate. Yet in spite of these success stories there are groups who have been in America for many generations but have never been able to integrate; they constitute a minority of the population, but vastly the majority of offenders in the penal system. You think they are in there because “the Man” doesn’t like them??

    Yes, I think there are differences – real differences – in varieties of humans. And I don’t think it is limited to the white boys’ limited basketball skills, which nobody seriously even talks about anymore. Think there are not others?

    Having said that, I believe complete miscegenation is the only answer to long-term coexistence of all humans. (My family is certainly doing its part, and I am quite happy about it. I’ll leave it at that.)

  149. But you and BIC have given me a shred of hope that there’s a real battle of philosophy within our jurisprudence, and the whole damn legal system isn’t as corrupt as I once thought.

    Don’t bet the farm on that.

    The elevation of the wise latina woman to the Supreme Court, despite repeated demonstrations of a less than judicial character and comportment was a violent kick to the crotch of judicial integrity, and Lainy Kagan’s confirmation also had some disturbing aspects to it. Some of the battles regarding the 9th circuit also leave a similar ashy flavor in my mouth.

  150. Got to agree for the most part with PFesser “R”.

    Though humans are no more than .1% different genetically, the expression of that small difference in phenotype is obvious in both color and muscle twitch. Don’t have to leave your own living room to understand that much.

    Look no further than the men and women’s 100 meter final at the next Olympics. You won’t see a pinky around, except to set the blocks for the sprinters. And on the other side of the equation, watch the “world’s strongest man” and you’ll see predominately European (whitey) types.

    So I have to assume that while behavior is mostly a learned process as is self-control, one would have to be naive to think different “breeds” of human are not predisposed to certain attributes. That obviously wouldn’t hold 100% of the time, as I’ve schooled lots of black guys on the football field years ago (and a few schooled me) and I could jump like a black guy in a younger day (can’t get off the ground now).

    I personally think PFesser’s observation of EE is more work ethic than intellect, but there’s no doubt the rest of his summation is highly likely. I don’t think you can debate the statistics.

  151. Don’t bet the farm on that.

    Oh, I can’t be so naive to think there’s not still a shred of truth to a liberal bias. But it is refreshing to meet two obviously bright attorneys that don’t mouth the meme of “wall of separation.” 😉

  152. In the last 30 years, Israel has thwarted the nuclear ambitions of Iran, Iraq and Syria. Three of the most radical and unstable regimes in the world.

    30 years ago Israel was selling arms to Iran. They are still in the arms business today. Many of Libya’s “freedom fighters” are being fought with Israeli weapons.

    Iran has proven time and again that it is not developing nuclear weapons. Israel has them, but does not admit it nor do they comply with any nuclear regulatory agencies or inspections.

    When a boob isn’t smart enough to recognize friend from foe, you have become a liability to this nation.

    Agreed. “The truth hurts. But it takes brave people who are willing to abandon long held beliefs that the Israelis could do no wrong. Somehow their victimhood justified their ruthless behavior toward the Palestinians.”

    “Briefly, True Compassion only arises when one gives up his/her core identity. Once that relinquish­ment occurs the world is no longer seen as a realm of Us against Them. That is because the attachment to a separate/i­ndividual identity requires the creation of the ‘other.’

    “The other is a person, society, religion, idea that does not fit within the boundaries of how an individual­, consciousl­y and unconsciou­sly, defines his/her identity. Thus, the other is a threat to the ‘reality’ of one’s self-image or identity. Additional­ly, I assert that Clarity always accompanie­s True Compassion­. True Compassion­, unbounded by labels or definition­s and the influence exerted upon one’s belief structure by a presumed identity, can see from a 360 degree perspectiv­e and, therefore, understand or be willing to understand all points of view. Thus, I can also say that although I find the brutal violence carried out by extremists abhorrent I understand that deep in their hearts even these extremists want the same things we all want – self-deter­mination, freedom and peace.”

  153. You know Al-Poolman, I heard secretly that Truman was selling arms to Hirohito in trade for some whale dong and a little geisha pussy when he passed Pearl Harbor secrets – pass that on to your other Wizards, but don’t let it get out I told you that. It’s a pretty well kept secret and there’s little green men that have been hunting me down for years. :shocked:

    You’re using Helen Thomas as proof I’m an enemy of the state? :mrgreen: Okay – you nailed me on that one too.

    So Iran has proven it is not developing nuclear weapons. I’m so incredulous, I had to confirm that is what you meant to type? Did I get that right Al-Poolman?

  154. Oh, I can’t be so naive to think there’s not still a shred of truth to a liberal bias. But it is refreshing to meet two obviously bright attorneys that don’t mouth the meme of “wall of separation.”

    That’s because I know it doesn’t mean what Justice Hugo Black and the ACLU, and Americans United for Separation of Church and State think it means.

  155. “That’s because I know it doesn’t mean what Justice Hugo Black and the ACLU, and Americans United for Separation of Church and State think it means.”

    Indeed.

  156. “Oh, I can’t be so naive to think there’s not still a shred of truth to a liberal bias.”

    Tex, maybe I didn’t understand your point. You seem to have a blanket perception of the legal profession or lawyers as a whole.

    I’m not sure I know what group has the “bias.” As you know, there’s no big club where lawyers get together and decide what the law should be and then work to achieve it. It’s the exact opposite. BiW lives in liberal hell (if I remember his locale). His opinions are probably unpopoular to many he works with and against.

    Obviously, there’s a distinction between the bench and the bar.

    Since contested matters are precisley that, you must be refering to the outcomes — which is dependent on alot of things that might explain the bias you’re talking about.

    From what you’ve said, I think you are perceptive. So I am frustarted by you robservation. Are you referring to jurists or advocates, public or private, or a scheme that exists between the two,or something else?

  157. Here, most witnesses in many state courts are still handed a bible when they’re sworn in. They don’t have to place their hand on it, or swear to God (they can affirm the truth of their testimony under pain of perjury).

    I think PF believes that is a violation of the establishment clause to even accept an oath on the bible, or recognize it in the courtroom. To the informed, it is not.

    Of course Rutherford would be offended by the appearance of a bible in the courtroom, so it must be a violation of a constituional standard. 😛

  158. Tigre,

    Though possibly unfair in my judgment, I have the perception that a majority of attorneys have a liberal bent to their politics, a humanist belief to their practice, and that many, many state and federal judges are militant liberal political activists – fascist bullies in a robe. Add to the fact, unless something has drastically changed, one of the biggest boosters to the Dimocratic party is the ABA.

    I’ll give you examples of why my perception is not unfounded.

    Five months ago, the citizens of the state of Oklahoma approved with a 75% majority a constitutional amendment aimed at stopping the use of Islamic law in its courts. Naturally, here comes the CAIR tied to the hip with Hamas, a known terrorist organization, to file a suit.

    And naturally, the sorry mother fuckers were able to find one black female judge, and I use race and gender because it certainly fits the pattern and the motive, appointed by Bill Clinton to deem the vote unconstitutional. Now Tigre, that is about as big a misuse of an institution as I’ve ever witnessed.

    Unconstitutional, my ass. And I’m not apologizing when one piece of shit, and I’m not apologizing, can stop the vote of 2,000,000 plus people. I say fuck that Tigre. And that’s not the first time this happened to our state.

    One nasty, filthy, ecohippie, Nazi bitch forty years ago was able to block the building of a badly needed nuclear power plant over the wishes of 70% of the citizenry by tying it up in the court for years. Finally the corporation said fuck it. That’s a misuse of law.

    When one person has that kind of clout Tigre with the benefit of a bunch of liberal attorneys carrying her water, then our judicial system is bogus.

    Remember, I’m closely tied to many doctors who have to self insure because of our judicial system. I’ve seen the kind of frivolous shit that some attorneys have foisted upon the gullible public and it makes me puke.

    And my view got entirely skewed 15 years ago when my straight as an arrow, small business owner father-in-law was forced into an EPA kangaroo court and fined $27,000 for the egregious ecological sin of not having the proper forms on file, which turned out to be only one of many required.

    So if my own bias against our judicial system or my perceptions are colored (no pun intended), don’t take it personally.

    But yeah, I think our judicial system when take as a whole is about as corrupt as any institution in America. Like I said, don’t take it personal, but I’ve witnessed the misuse of the power of the law countless times, some of it personal.

  159. The legislation went too far and had unacceptable discriminatory result against homosexuals and their rights/freedom to contract.

    You see? I told you you were “legit”. 😉

  160. I bet R would be surprised at how many of us don’t fit his preconceived notions.

    G, I think you’d lose that bet. While after a couple of years here, I find some of your responses predictable, I don’t find your biographies predictable at all. And let’s face it, would any cookie-cutter racist cracker conservative have any use for this blog? They wouldn’t read it much less comment on it.

    So, I actually do exempt you guys from some of the worst stereotypes I might entertain. I just think your views aid and abet those who DO fit the stereotype. 😉

  161. As you know, there’s no big club where lawyers get together and decide what the law should be and then work to achieve it.

    Don’t tell the ABA or the Washington State Bar Association that.

    Thankfully, my membership is only compulsory in ONE of those organizations.

  162. Then why do we think all human differences are situational?

    Well PF, this may seem illogical since I do tend to favor science, but I have a hard time comparing humans to varieties of dogs.

    You’ve cited Vietnamese, Indians, etc and you leave out one major factor — slavery. The dehumanizing institution of slavery, which did indeed reduce humans to animals, cannot be overstated in its effect upon generations of blacks. I submit, again returning to an antiseptic scientific view of the situation that you cannot conduct a controlled experiment of how different minorities have fared in this country because the institution of slavery ruins the control group and any possible comparison.

  163. Tex, the only way I can possibly agree with Pfesser on this one is to acknowledge that Asians take too many damn photos and don’t watch where they’re going. Clearly a genetic trait. 😉

  164. Frankly, I am a bit irked by people swearing an oath on a bible in court or Congress opening with a prayer. But I consider it a small price to pay to live in an otherwise free society.

  165. I might add that the minute we entertain the notion that blacks misbehave because they “are built that way”, we might as well throw out the entire civil rights movement and cede the country over to racists.

    The notion that one race is inherently inferior to another is the very definition of racism. That’s not playing the race card. That’s playing the dictionary. 😐

  166. I have a question and a comment concerning Poolman’s video in #200.

    Queston: is Pinky related to Felix?

    Comment: Although I did not watch the full 25 minutes yet, what little I saw makes it clear that Obama is not a United States citizen because Hawaii is an occupied territory and not a legitimate state of the union. I say impeachment proceedings must begin immediately, if not sooner. 😐

  167. So, for extra money I coach a legion of nerds in Quiz Bowl. Believe it or not, its very competitive.

    Sometimes I have to be the moderator and ask the questions.

    You should have heard the gasps in the crowd the time I read “hors’ dourves” as “whores deevoors” in a championship match in front of a hundred of the smartest people in Michigan. (The word was in a question). Talk about feeling like a meat head.

    Anywho, schools with a high percentage of Indians and Chinese dominate.

    After talking to the kids and their parents, I am convinced their success is 100% cultural.

    Indian and Chinese immigrants stress education like Spartans used to stress combat.

    If the Chinks are so biologically intelligent, how come they haven’t invented anything since fireworks?

    I call bull shit.

    Black people aren’t biologically predisposed to be thugs. Show me a good black family and you will usually find good black kids.

    Even the sports analogy doesn’t really work. Black people tend to have longer legs, and often have an edge in sports that benefit from this. But white people tend to have longer torsos, and tend to have an edge in swimming. So, you have to pick the physical skill set. I’m guessing if we lived on a small island with a ton of lagoons, white people would be seen as the physically superior race. No one “race” is physically superior, as there is no universal trait for such a thing. The reason I bring this up is that it is often implied that a superior physical disposition implies a lesser intellectual one. Am I making sense, here?

    There have been times when Europe was comparable to the current state Africa: violent, poor, lawless, etc.

    Europe was still in the Neolithic when Africans south of Egypt were civilized.

    If some races were predisposed to be more violent or thugish, wouldn’t a pattern show up in history?

    Just look at the last 100 years! Does it get any more self destructive or barbaric then Germany, Russia or China?

  168. “Now Tigre, that is about as big a misuse of an institution as I’ve ever witnessed.”

    Tex, we’re talking about two different things. I am talking about the political pursuasion of the legal community genrally. You are talking about a Clinton appointed federal judge with a democratic agenda and ability to further the cause. Our state court judges here are elected. Many are mighty conservative, and generallly pro-defendant in civil cases, pro-state in criminal. So too with our presidentially appointed federal judges.

    I don’t disagree that the selection process is politically biased, but not in a way the is not generally reflective of the communties I’ve been in. As I said, the quality of the judges is a real problem. The quality of the laws is a real problem. I don’t disagree that majority of legal scholars have a liberal bent, like all academics.

    What I’m saying is that conservative lawyers are not as rare a species across the board as you think. That doesn’t mean I would bother looking for one in San Francisco.

  169. “Don’t tell the ABA or the Washington State Bar Association that.” 😆

    BiW, you know I haven’t attended a state bar meeting ever in my career. I’ve held a “trial membership” in the ABA for over 15 years. Great discounts on car rentals and a monthly magazine that goes in the pile. You know bar associations are first and foremost social/marketing clubs. They have no effect on my legal or political opinions.

  170. Sir:

    “I might add that the minute we entertain the notion that blacks misbehave because they “are built that way”, we might as well throw out the entire civil rights movement and cede the country over to racists.

    The notion that one race is inherently inferior to another is the very definition of racism. That’s not playing the race card. That’s playing the dictionary.”

    I am going to proceed here because I perceive that while you have your own prejudices as do we all, nothing is off-topic here AND you will listen. If you will drop the knee-jerk “racist!” thing, I believe this is a topic that should be discussed, and I am willing to take the chance and do so.

    First of all, nobody said the word “inferior.” But it only takes a little experience in person, or if one doesn’t get out much, watching “Cops” or somesuch on TV to see that there is a definite difference in aggressiveness of the young men on the street. To my mind, it’s right in front of your eyes; you have to but observe.

    Secondly, I don’t think it is valid to bring up something that happened at least six generations ago, to people whose names these young men don’t even know. I’m still a little pissed about how my people in West Virginia were treated by the coal companies in the ‘twenties, only because I have heard stories from those who were there, but my kids know nothing of that. At some point the excuse-making has to stop, and people have to step up to the plate. I got caught speeding last year, but I didn’t blame Culloden.

    I was in a “social science” class at University in the early ‘seventies. The PhD was AWOL, and the class was taught by a massive black graduate student named Diane Onion. This was the heyday of civil rights and every day we endured anti-white diatribes about how it was all the white students’ faults and we should be more contrite, but no matter how contrite we were, it was never enough.

    Finally I had just had enough. I asked Diane if she were a slave. After the usual blast, she conceded no. I then asked about each ancestor, back about 5 generations. She said no, except for the oldest and she didn’t know. I told her I held no slaves nor any of my ancestors for five generations.

    I then told her, “So, in a way of thinking, we are separated from each other by ten lifetimes of good guys and non-slaves. How long am I supposed to keep paying you for things people I didn’t even know did to people you didn’t even know?”

    I have many, many Jewish friends. One told me years ago that the Jews figured out a long time ago that obsessing about the Holocaust – in my mind about two orders of magnitude worse than slavery – was just eating them alive, and for the most part they had stopped. They remembered it, but they had stopped obsessing. There are groups in America IMHO that need to stop putting out excuses and get to work, because for the most part nobody believes the excuses are valid any more and nobody cares. Just my opinion.

    Sorry for the long post, but I think the way we think about these things has not worked, and perhaps we should think about it another way.

  171. Once again “R”, I second Pfesser’s letter to your retort. And once again, statistics back up his claims. American blacks aren’t in prisons in inordinate numbers because prison is racist. Blacks are disproportionally representative in prison because blacks commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime.

    Now whether that is predisposed by genetics, or cultural and historical as you insist is open to debate. I suspect it is a little of both.

    But you ask for proof, so I give you immutable proof. Africa. Hundreds of centuries of lawlessness, corruption, butchering, war, slavery, and still stuck in the stone age savagery. Blacks left to their own accord have a miserable record of human suffering. If speaking the obvious makes me a classic dictionary racist, so be it.

    About Indians and Asians dominating the engineering and scientific fields now? In some capacities like electrical and chemical engineering, that is probably true from my observation – and I think in large due to returning to their homeland with PHD in hand. American students tend to hover with the greatest bang for the buck with the least amount of work.

    White America has grown apathetic and soft after a few generations of living the good life – engineering and science are hard work. The minute these new students realize their liberal arts degree which cost $150K will get them a nice job emptying trash and serving drinks, the epiphany will begin when the parental money flow stops. I know. I’ve got a baby daughter that falls into this category – perfectly capable of being anything she wanted to be – not so willing to do the hard work to get there; straight A student with no purpose, cruising at a private university in the sorority house. But I suspect the epiphany for many has already begun.

    However, it’s also work remembering that India and China represent about 1/3 of the population of the earth. You’re bound to get a very high quality foreign student that hasn’t lived the easy life with those odds. And what we are witnessing in America is the best and brightest foreign students utilizing our higher educational system. Both China and India are still light years behind America in those capacities that require doctoral engineers – demand drives a large part of that.

    My medical class was still composed of mostly whites. But there were a disproportion share of Asians, zero Hispanics, one Indian, and two blacks. Same way with my daughter’s medical class in Texas.

  172. Tigre,

    What I’m saying is that conservative lawyers are not as rare a species across the board as you think.

    Oh, I believe you. I get more encouraged by that reality as I meet men like you and BIC. It’s just that my own personal experiences seem unfortunately to have dealt with the other persuasion.

    And I loathe them. 🙂

  173. Pfessor is confusing me.

    If he thinks black culture is the issue, sign me up.

    If he thinks its “biological”, I’m not buying it.

  174. Rabbit, at the risk of making you change your mind, #204 officially makes you my cyber-friend for life, regardless of what other disagreements we might have. Reading that comment has started my weekend off real nice! Bravo!

  175. Pfesser, I would be the first to agree that ghetto culture, at least what I am exposed to via the boob tube, is a no-win deal. That is a far cry from laying it on biology.

    I also think you’re forgetting some history.

    Slavery was abolished in the 1860’s and whites and black lived harmoniously thereafter with the one exception that blacks just wouldn’t let go of their resentment and “get over it”.

    Is that the history you learned? Funny, that’s not how I understand it. From what I understand discrimination against blacks simply for being black never stopped. Have things gotten much better? Absolutely. But please don’t tell me blacks just won’t let go of slavery. Slavery is the big bang in the prejudice universe but the discrimination solar system is the result. I believe it’s Mississippi where a recent poll said almost half of the residents think interracial marriage should be illegal.

    And please don’t tell me about how Jews are now just hunky-dory about the Holocaust. What a load of utter crap that is. The difference between Jews and blacks in America is that Jews have successfully made the Holocaust the third rail of political discourse. No one dares tell a Jew to get over it … and that is why they can appear so “hip” about it.

    So the counter from you (and Tex): well look at how successful Jews are in America. And to that I go back to Rabbit’s comment which is right on the money. Jews (and some other minorities) think education is the key to success and they are mostly right. That epiphany has not saturated black culture yet. I’d dare say it hasn’t infiltrated poor white West Virgina culture yet either. Are you aware that some parts of West Virginia look like a f*cking third world country? Just full of po white people.

    Sorry …. the biological argument will not fly with me. And yes, if you are saying that blacks are biologically pre-disposed to crime than you are saying they are inferior to whites.

  176. Sir: Once again, I think we need to get past all the PC we’ve had shoved down our throats for our whole lives and consider the situation anew, with real perspective and objectivity.

    The idea that every human difference is cultural is the linchpin of a particular kind of thinking; I expect those who have spent all their adult lives being inculcated with that to defend it viciously. But I would ask that you try to look at the situation objectively and leave that behind.

    It doesn’t take a lot of advanced thinking to come to the conclusion that not all human differences are cultural; just consider your own experience. OK, since it is controversial, let’s forget the EE students. I’ll give you another example: I have a friend who is an MD on an Indian reservation in the west. He tells me that more than 80 percent of the Indians there are alcoholics, diagnosed and (sometimes) treated for same. Think about that number for a minute. Do you think that is because of cultural differences, or because they are simply genetical intolerant of EtOH? I used to play football and basketball against black kids. I’m a tall, pretty coordinated guy but the first time I went against a black kid on the court, I was out of my league. Look at the NBA or NFL. They don’t even TRY to be PC; this is a multibillion dollar business and they hire whoever is the best. Look, man, look. Open your eyes. Think about what you see.

    I watched a confrontation between two young black men in my town last week as I pumped gas into my truck. It is a totally different scenerio from watching two white guys argue. Immediate screaming and profanity and thrashing around. If the cops hadn’t come quickly, there would have been violence; I later drove away and observed one of the men and his girlfriend walking up the sidewalk. He was still waving his fists around and swearing at the top of his lungs. Other people do not act like that.

    About ten years ago Scientific American published line charts plotting violent crime against time, in both America and Europe, and the author was scratching his head about how to interpret the charts. His answer was right on his own chart: If you subtracted black-committed crime from the cumulative chart, our chart almost perfectly matched that of Europe, year for year.

    As Master Po used to tell Kwai Chang, “You observe, Grasshopper, but you do not SEE.”

  177. If blacks are predisposed to violent crime as a part of biology, then why isn’t the whole of Africa at war with itself?

  178. When it comes to behaviors or personality traits surely genetics plays some role, but I think something like aggressiveness is primarily shaped by the psychological/social influences as opposed to biological ones. It’s been a while but the theory of the major determinates of personality seemed to resonate with me at the time I heard/read of it.

    IMO slavery is also completely germaine to the conversation.

    (My reading comprehension of this topic as discussed here could be called into question. I’m supposed to be doing my homework.)

  179. Dude, you are using some spat at a gas station as evidence that black people are biologically predisposed to be thugs? Are you fucking kidding me?

    You’re talking out of your ass and making a total leap that some violence gene will one day be isolated in black people.

    You act smart, but you jump from deductive to inductive reasoning at will.

    Even your Darwinism via slavery argument doesn’t add up. Why would slave masters breed violent oppositional defiant slaves?

    I’m guessing every personal instance I bring up that contradicts this wouldn’t be valid since your observations are much more weighty then mine.

    They used to make the same exact argument about the Polish and Irish only a couple of generations ago.

    I don’t give a fuck about being labeled Politically Correct.

    You need to put Mein Kamph down.

    No wonder you are pro-baby murder. It makes so much sense now.

    You are a classic pro-choice Eugenics loving racist.

  180. Man, I’m not fucking with Rutherford. While he is handicap, he is still more predisposed to be violent then the average bear. The minute I turn my back on him, the motherfucker might hobble towards me foaming at the mouth and bite my butt.

  181. Sir:
    If you want to discuss this rationally, we can do that, but you gotta calm down, man. My experience is that anger always comes from fear – always – and my experience in debating has been that it always comes from fear of being Wrong. It’s very threatening to have one’s lifelong beliefs brought into question; I understand that. I am just trying to start a conversation; if I am wrong, then fine; I learned something. But you are going to have to *prove* me wrong.

    “Slavery was abolished in the 1860′s and whites and black lived harmoniously thereafter with the one exception that blacks just wouldn’t let go of their resentment and “get over it”.

    ‘Is that the history you learned? Funny, that’s not how I understand it.’

    C’mon dude, you know I never said that or anything like it. But after 5, 6, 7 generations, explanations that you robbed the liquor store because of something that happened to your great, great granddaddy who you not only never knew, you don’t even know his name – that is pretty thin. History is replete with Bad Things; what I want to know is when are folks going to put on their big-boy pants and get to work fixing their world and stop blaming everybody else? Aside from being downright embarrassing, the fact is nobody cares; if you want to do well, you are going to have to hump_and_get_it; nobody is going to do it for you. Our Prez comes to mind immediately as a pretty good example.

    “The difference between Jews and blacks in America is that Jews have successfully made the Holocaust the third rail of political discourse. No one dares tell a Jew to get over it”

    I would submit that it is no more of a third rail than *this* discussion; it is just that this blog is liberal enough to allow all POVs here – unlike many other places.

    “I’d dare say it hasn’t infiltrated poor white West Virgina culture yet either. Are you aware that some parts of West Virginia look like a f*cking third world country? Just full of po white people.”

    I know West Virginia quite well, thank you; I grew up there, and in places it is exactly as you say. But in bringing up West Virginia, I think you have inadvertently supplied your own hanging-rope. West Virginia has, for years had nearly the lowest, if hot THE lowest crime rate in the country – and the smallest police force, not only in absolute terms, but per capita. So how does that work, with all those po’ downtrodden white folks who should be stealing the hat off your head, but are not doing it, and despite *always* having been poor, never have?

    The reason is that crime is not a marker for poverty of money; it is a marker for a poverty of another type.

  182. By 900 AD the Vikings were bashing the black brain matter out of innocent monks with massive hammers only to steal a silver crucifix and a few sheep.

    The “berserkers” would work themselves into a wild eyed, violent frenzy as they their pagan ships would make way to sleepy coastal towns.

    After they were done, with blood and brains still splattered on their bearded faces, they would get drunk as hell on mead, each man standing up and bragging about his violence and killing.

    Yeah, sounds just like Stockholm, today.

    I don’t even go into IKEA in case some exec from Sweden might be there.

    Some people tell me that in the last 1000 years the Vikings’ violence gene has been eradicated. After all, when they mixed with the French and became “Normans” they didn’t make war very often…uh scratch that.

    I’m not chancing it. Those Northmen are fucking nuts.

  183. Dude, you keep jumping back and forth from the particular to the general and from cultural to biological.

  184. I’d dare say it hasn’t infiltrated poor white West Virgina culture yet either. Are you aware that some parts of West Virginia look like a f*cking third world country? Just full of po white people.

    PFesser beat me to it – picking Ma and smart daughter at airport, but your choice of W. Virginny Rutherford is a bad one if you wish to refute PFesser’s argument.

    Po W. Virginia has some of the lowest crimes rates in the nation, and their po upbringing didn’t bring us the hood.

  185. When I worked in juvenile corrections in Virginia, we got two kinds of white boys. Suburban pussies who had to be locked up in protective custody. And Appalachian dudes who nobody fucked with.

    The Appalachians were the most uneducated, but pretty cool and actually kind of respectful.

  186. I had read about that in school Huck but hadn’t seen anything else. Pretty interesting, hey?

    Now the question becomes, is the gene innate? Or is it possible the environment leads to the gene or a mutation thereof?

    That’s the problem with biology. Though we have accumulated an incredible amount of knowledge, including mapping the genome, it has proven far more complex than anyone ever imagined. It’s not just as simple as a polypeptide complex.

    That’s why I feel it’s a little of both – genetics and environment.

  187. Yeah, Its pretty obvious my Dad’s side of the family is more aggressive and violent.

    My brothers and I all have it in us.

    I guess my point is that you see evidence of the gene (if it exists) pretty uniformly through out the world.

    Its also probably in our genes to fuck 80 percent of the chicks we meet.

    Yet, many of us, stay miserably monogamous.

    Humans rise up above base instincts all the time.

    The warrior gene can be channeled in a positive direction.

    Us alpha males do bad ass things like run Quiz Bowl and the Model UN.

  188. Black people were not killing one another until LBJ ensured that they be treated like monkies at the zoo.

  189. Tigre, your assessment actually makes no sense. What does Sr’s academic record have to do with Jr’s academic record? I don’t see the connection.

    I also don’t see why this part of the bio is receiving coverage now. Can’t nail Obama anymore so we go after the dead father? What’s next … that Stanley Ann Dunham was a whore? Really odd if you ask me.

    I completely understand Harvard’s position on the finances. If you can’t pay for the degree, with or without aid, you shouldn’t get the degree. I am puzzled with why Harvard would concern itself with Obama Sr’s personal life unless it was disrupting his studies.

    Tigre seriously … is the issue that polygamy is a crime and therefore INS would need to deport him on that basis?

  190. Huck I’m assuming the MAO stuff in the article you posted is the same (or some variation of the same) thing that prescription MAO-inhibitors are sold for. Tex can help on this but aren’t MAO-inhibitors prescribed for wild mood swings and clinical depression?

    On a humorous note, I was amused that the article made a passing reference to culture but not a word about race .. and then just to be squeaky clean, pictured the hand of an apparently white kid holding a knife. 🙂

  191. Now I’m just throwing this out for consideration …. are the stats that Pfesser and Tex are tossing around that paints W.Va. as a peaceful homey kinda place, based on arrest and conviction records? Cos I’ve got news for you … it is a well known fact that blacks are disproportionately arrested and convicted for offenses also committed by white folks.

    So your stats mean …. squat.

  192. Regarding 228, behavior is awfully hard to attribute purely to genetics because a family full of aggressive men can be influenced just as much by nurture as nature.

    Don’t stats show that many men (perhaps most) who were beaten as kids wind up beating their children? Is this genetic or simply a man emulating the only male role model he has?

    More thoughts later.

  193. “Tigre, your assessment actually makes no sense. What does Sr’s academic record have to do with Jr’s academic record? I don’t see the connection.”

    I was being sarcastic. I should’ve put a smiley.

    Of course Harvard’s assessments were racial, right? What was described wouldn’t have happened if he weren’t black. As we all know, racism to blame for all inquiries of this nature. . . 🙄

  194. It smells like an Obama move to me. I was wondering how such information might have been released otherwise (unless its available for the asking).

  195. I agree Rabbit that the breakdown of the black family has contributed much to the sphere of criminal activity and violence. No one can deny that. Growing up unsupervised, I probably would have been well on my way to becoming Vlad the Impaler by now.

    But it is really hard to explain away the history of an entire continent. And Africa has been a killing field since records were kept.

    I think where “R” is misunderstanding my “theory” is that I’m not necessarily saying criminal activity and aggression is the only form of abominable sin or simply attributed to one race. Nazi Germany would surpass by sheer numbers and horror anything of recent African history – a more sophisticated and brutal form of mass murder.

    Mr. Rutherford is proof positive that there’s far more to aggression than one’s skin color. I’m simply establishing a hypothesis as a possible factor in explaining the American stats. And at least in America for whatever reason, blacks are the stereotypical aggressor. I don’t know how anyone can honestly deny that.

  196. Europe was also a killing field up to about a 1000 years ago.

    Hell, 2000 years ago it was full of face painted tribal savages, pagan dancing half naked, weather permitting.

    So, some parts of Africa ended up to be late when it comes to civilization. But, what’s a couple thousand years, particularly when we are talking biology?

    I do think parts of the African continent might impede progress, but the main factor would be environmental: crop fertility, constant warm weather, domestication issues etc.

    Unless one believes in hyper accelerated evolution, I don’t know how anyone can make biological claims for behavior on huge swaths of people.

  197. IMO, classical liberalism directly influenced by the New Testament is the key. Last I checked, that aint a gene.

    Stability and freedom.

    Self reliant yet tied to family.

  198. Hell, 2000 years ago it was full of face painted tribal savages, pagan dancing half naked, weather permitting.

    I don’t know. 2,000 years ago, my relatives were starting the construction of the Coliseum, when they weren’t overturning every stone on the Jewish Temple. 350 years before that, Alexander was in the mix.

    Of course, they Caligula probably was dancing naked with a harem of lovely babes about then too. 😉

  199. Oh …. I did want to report something that I guess backs up Pfesser’s assessment.

    I went grocery shopping with the family today and suddenly got a surge of inbred testosterone. It was all I could do not to run down the slow motherf*cker ahead of me in the produce section with my scooter. I swear if I’d had a gun I would have popped a cap in his ass.

    Rabbit is right …. I’m a VERY dangerous motherf*cker! Look at me the wrong way while I’m buying my Pop Tarts and I’ll blow your bitch-ass away! 👿

  200. Rabbit – I think I’m about as much mutt as you can be. My dad gets dark like a native Indian and we don’t really know his ancestry.

    But my mother’s side, say my great grandfather – he’s top the top hat and handle bar mustache – and my other great grandfather from the other side was actually a Texas Ranger who looks like something out a John Wayne movie.

    Bottom line is Brother Rabbit, I think I’m a European, smorgasbord of half breed. 🙂

  201. Hey Tex, since we’re enjoying a friendly discussion of race, let’s throw a bit of religion into the mix.

    What would you wager Jesus looked more like Wilt Chamberlain than Willem Defoe?


  202. Well Tex, let’s not forget black folks were building the pyramids. Guess that’s how they channeled their testosterone.

    And I note Egypt is technically Africa – but that ancestry looks a heck of a lot more like Abraham and Persia than they do Shaka Zulu.

    Those hieroglyphic pharaoh pictures don’t look black. See what I mean 😈

  203. Tex, if your Dad’s ancestry is a mystery, I’d lay 10 to 1 odds you’ve got some black in you.

    See … that’s why despite our political disagreements we still bond. Right bro? 🙂

  204. “R”,

    Tex, if your Dad’s ancestry is a mystery, I’d lay 10 to 1 odds you’ve got some black in you.

    That thought has crossed my mind on occasion brotha “R”. I won’t tell you the inside joke as my family immigrated from Mississippi, pecan trees and all, but my lily white grandfather from my mother’s side was just sure my mother had interbred. 🙂

    Don’t you figure the chances pretty good, we “ALL” got some black in us, if we get down to the roots of the tree?

    Now, I know for a fact Jesus didn’t look like Wilt Chamberlain, but the chances pretty darn good Adam had a close resemblance.

  205. I watched the White House Correspondent’s Dinner tonight and The Donald got a well deserved public spanking.

    You know who I actually feel bad for? Don Jr., Eric and Ivanka Trump, the kids of the buffoon. It must be horrible for them to see their Dad being a public ass and then getting whupped for it.

  206. Ah, Obama can’t win this one “R”. He may get in a few cheap shots on The Donald, but Trump has got an equally big stage. This isn’t the Supreme Court who has to take the public spanking.

    You know The Apprentice script writers are already writing the scalding comeback lines.

    One thing I thought about. On the million to one odds Trump runs and wins, how many First Ladies would we have before The Donald’s 1st term expired.

    You ask me, these two bullying blowhards deserve each other.

  207. “Impossible Rutherford. Jews are the world’s worst athletes.”

    Know the only Jew to ever win a Heisman Trophy?

    Fred Goldman.

  208. “Hell, 2000 years ago it was full of face painted tribal savages, pagan dancing half naked, weather permitting. ”

    We’re not talking about 2000 years ago; we’re talking about here, now.

    R-
    “are the stats that Pfesser and Tex are tossing around that paints W.Va. as a peaceful homey kinda place, based on arrest and conviction records? Cos I’ve got news for you … it is a well known fact that blacks are disproportionately arrested and convicted for offenses also committed by white folks. ”

    That’s not what I said – I said they had one of the lowest crime rates in the nation, with a small police force, and they were disproportionately poor, using your own example against you that poor means criminal.

    As for “disproportionately,” it is very helpful to review individual cases of those in the pen. Even a cursory review or discussion with attorneys on both sides will reveal that those folks are there because they actually committed the crime of which they have been convicted. And do you really think that if a white boy shoots somebody, he won’t be charged?

    I believe you are so married to your beliefs that you won’t even look at other explanations. What if you are wrong? You’re a scientist – would that kind of prejudice be tolerated in scientific inquiry? Why can’t you at least consider what the statistics blatantly suggest?

  209. Know the only Jew to ever win a Heisman Trophy?

    Fred Goldman.

    I’m almost embarrassed. But if you can’t laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at? I’m a real sports fan, and I was so slow this morning, I actually ran down my head the list of Heisman trophy winners not recalling the name Fred Goldman, until I got to the mental “Juice” ladder.

    😆 I shall add that one for my Jewish friends.

    One of my favorite joke lines in a movie PFesser was in the spoof “Airplane”, where the lady asks for some light reading, and the stewardess hands her the magazine “Great Jewish Athletes.”

  210. “Hell, 2000 years ago it was full of face painted tribal savages, pagan dancing half naked, weather permitting. ”

    “We’re not talking about 2000 years ago; we’re talking about here, now.”

    And you are completely ignoring the other 1/2 of his point. Which was…

    “Unless one believes in hyper accelerated evolution, I don’t know how anyone can make biological claims for behavior on huge swaths of people.”

  211. “Unless one believes in hyper accelerated evolution, I don’t know how anyone can make biological claims for behavior on huge swaths of people.”

    Firstly, nobody said this occurred rapidly or even recently. Although we all came from Africa, the environment for those who stayed behind in Africa has been much different from Europeans’ for as long as they have lived in two separate places. Anthropologists, help us out here – how long have these two groups been separated? Hundreds of thousands of years or more?

    Secondly, even having said that, evolution proceeds at its own pace, depending on what external forces are present. The classic case would be that of the moth that evolved very quickly to change its colours in the face of the sooty atmosphere of England during the Industrial Revolution. Ah, here it is:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

    We very easily accept differences in animals of the same species, not only of capabilities but of temperament. And, using basketball players as an example, in point of fact we accept differences in physical abilities of humans – that is, if they favor certain protected groups. But to suggest that there might be other differences is unacceptable. Why is that?

    I believe it is because we are so afraid of being considered un-PC, prejudiced or bigoted that we turn a blind eye to what is before our very faces, rather than behaving like scientists and saying, “Let’s take a look at that.”

  212. “Firstly, nobody said this occurred rapidly or even recently…”

    You’re still not putting 2 and 2 together.

    DR says that 2000 years ago the people of Europe were face-painting savages. Now they aren’t.

    2000 years in evolutionary terms is a drop in the bucket. So it would make sense that the behavior changes in Europeans from 2000 years ago to now did not come from biology.

    If you want to argue against what DR is saying, then explain away the conclusion he is drawing from his case study—Europeans of 2000 years ago. Not moths.

    Are you proposing that Europeans saw an evolutionary change in the last 2000 years that changed their behavior from what we consider savage to what we consider civilized?

  213. And comparing things like moths to humans in a discussion of evolution is misleading. Moths can show evolutionary changes a lot quicker, because their life cycles are much shorter. If you’re going to make such comparisons, then the number of generations becomes the factor, not number of years.

  214. “You know who I actually feel bad for? Don Jr., Eric and Ivanka Trump, the kids of the buffoon. It must be horrible for them to see their Dad being a public ass and then getting whupped for it.”

    I notice Trump wasn’t invited to speak.

    Yeah, it’s real easy to issue a whupping to someone when they aren’t allowed to fight back. And so typical of an Obama fight.

  215. “I watched the White House Correspondent’s Dinner tonight and The Donald got a well deserved public spanking.”

    One question…

    “How the hell did today’s developments move our country forward?”

    When Obama punks Trump in a 1-man fight, its worth noting and laughter.

    When Trump punks Obama in a 2-man fight, we must ask, “how does any of that help our country?”

  216. That peppered moth theory has been debunked if I’m not mistaken. I’m surprised that hasn’t been noted by something like Wiki.

    I suppose the finch beaks might hold a little more water with respect to biological evolution, but even the finch beaks returned to base genetic patterns when the drought ended.

    About the only thing I’ve witnessed with respect to evolutionary change through mutation, sustained and not deleterious which is observable and repeatable is is bacteria and antibiotic resistance.

    Problem is PFesser, even that is not analogous to your example, as biological differences from multicellular organisms lack regular sexual reproduction and reproductive isolation that is crucial for speciation in animals and plants.

    http://nar.oxfordjournals.org/content/37/4/1011.full

    You might want to confirm that peppered moth hypothesis, because I don’t believe that holds much water in scientific circles anymore.

  217. Yeah, it’s real easy to issue a whupping to someone when they aren’t allowed to fight back. And so typical of an Obama fight.

    Isn’t that the truth. In fact, in the one on one and Obama gets spanked for his ignorance and dismal accuracy of history, the conversation ends with, “You need to let me finish my responses without interruption.” Red faced, of course.

  218. “Well Tex, let’s not forget black folks were building the pyramids.”-R

    I remember back in the 90’s black revisionism was is full effect.

    Some were even claiming Socrates was black.

    The dumb thing about Egypt is that you can clearly tell when they differentiate blacks and non black Egyptians. I remember noticing this in the 6th grade. Most Egyptians were clearly not black. Hell, you can even tell when they depict semetic groups like the Hyksos.

    That being said, the Nubians to the south were clearly black. And while they built smaller, lamer pyramids and such, they were an advanced culture in their own right. They had their own written language, complex religious class, organized government. They even temporarily defeated the Egyptians. I think this would have been more then a thousand years before the rise of the Greeks.

  219. I love my wife. I love my daughters. I love my big TV. Now that my harem of women back in town, I think I might hang myself this afternoon.

    Right now, I have been relegated to watching big, fat, superficial, unsophisticated broads choosing wedding dresses on the TLC channel, trying to look like Princess Katherine. These soon to be brides resemble bull seals with tattoos on their shoulders hammered into yards of tulle.

    This crap is excruciatingly poor TV. Two hours ago, I thought I was the dumbest one in my household. I’ve changed my mind.

  220. Lol.

    How’s this for emasculating. Its pretty much been established its much more productive for my wife to work on the new house then me.

    So, I watch the baby while she works.

    Its painting. I can’t fucking stand it.

  221. “Can you get me a diet Coke?’ ~ Sarah Palin says to MSNBC host Rachel Maddow

    First Perky Katie Couric; now Butch Madcow. Sarah has learned the art of how to communicate with libs. 😆

    Treat them all the same. Like Dogs. 😈

  222. Rabbit,

    Is the new house close to where you used to work? I never understood if you moved “out” to get some room, or did you move out of the ‘hood?

  223. I notice Trump wasn’t invited to speak.

    Huh? Who was invited to speak? The traditional speakers that everyone comes to see at the Washington Correspondents Dinner is the President and the headlining comedian. I don’t know who else speaks or how they get chosen but it isn’t designed to be an equal-time debate to begin with. It’s designed to be a laugh.

    Hell … I’m shocked Trump was invited to be there in the audience in the first place and only less slightly shocked he agreed to show up.

  224. BTW, Huck … did I say anything about anything that goes on at the White House Correspondent’s Dinner moving our country forward? It’s a trivial joke of a night. What’s unfortunate for the Trump children is that this year, Daddy was the butt of at least half the jokes.

  225. Another great article by VDH – I really like this man.

    We may well decline, and pass on a weaker, more divided, more insolvent and at-risk America to our children. But that is again, entirely a choice, not a fate. It is a decision that many prosperous, but tired and squabbling societies — 4th-century Athens, 5th-century A.D. Rome, 1950s Britain, 1970s America — chose willingly when they redistributed rather than created wealth, embraced envy rather than emulation as their collective creed, whined about not being liked rather than unapologetically assumed unpopularity is always the price of leadership and jealousy its constant twin, and talked of rationing, lectured on what they could not, rather than could, do, and made bickering between the generations, the sexes, the races, the classes, and tribes a national sport, rather than collectively and confidently looked forward to expanding, creating, and uniting in national purpose.

    But first we need to get rid of the whining dead weight “Leading from Behind.”

    http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/ok-lets-decline/#comment-69502

  226. Tex,

    For the last 6 years I’ve lived on the outer rim of the metro area.

    My new house will remain in the same zip code (I think).

    I work even further out.

    I moved into the house I foreclosed on from Richmond, VA, where I worked in corrections.

    I grew up on the “west side” in a suburb full of white auto workers. A block a way from my house was the suburb for black auto workers. Cherry Hill Road was the DMZ.

    There is no way in hell I’m moving back to my old neighborhood. While I could buy a decent house for 30 grand, its not worth it. Although, I do still pay my American Legion dues at the post in my old hood, play softball etc.
    ****

    And the Tigers just blew another game to be swept by Cleveland. Damn it.

  227. Man, its fucked up Qadaffy’s grand children had to die like that.

    We obviously are trying to kill Qadaffy as politically correct offensives always become futile. Its just too bad kids had to die.

    Obama may pretend we’re not in a 3rd War, but Libya is our problem now. Let’s grab our sacks, give them some true shock and awe and vaporize Qadaffy while crossing our fingers that Obama’s rebel buddies are cool.

  228. As much as I am right there with ya regarding the grandkids, DR…it’s looking like the whole story might be BS.

    “It’s a trivial joke of a night.”

    Which is all you have given Trump credit for being on any given day.

    The big difference here is that, just like with Sarah Palin, you want to pick and choose when Donald Trump is important and when he isn’t. And if your last 2 blog entries don’t prove that, I don’t think anything will.

  229. Let’s grab our sacks, give them some true shock and awe and vaporize Qadaffy while crossing our fingers that Obama’s rebel buddies are cool.

    And replace him with what, exactly?

    I think I’d prefer to have the two sides fighting than have a clear winner.

  230. BIC,

    That’s the problem, and on this one, I give kudos to Huck and me a swift kick in the ass for my initial guesstimate. I think I got caught up in my hard on for wanting to snuff K. Daffy, the bastard.

    The more I thought about Libya, the more I’ve read about Libya, the more I recognized that I have no idea what fills the vacuum of a missing K. Daffy. If we’re talking about secularist Muslims, super (I think).

    If we’re talking about filling the void with Al-Qaida, then my suggestion to “protect the innocents” getting bombed was major-league stupid.

    I sometimes have momentary lapses of senior judgment and forget there’s much about the world, especially filtered by a corrupt media, that I would do better to shut my mouth in voicing my opinion (bad habit).

    What a bitter pill to swallow in print for “R”. He’ll never let me live that down. 😡

  231. Well, we’re either in it to win it, or not.

    Wasting millions of my kids dollars a day to fight a war by employing a mediocre strategy by design is insane.

    Unleashing limp dick power is the worst of both worlds.

    Obama speaks softly and carries ring baloney for a stick.

    Fuck nerf warfare. People should be in awe of American power.

  232. Maybe for one time in my life, I bailed at the right time Rabbit. I doubt it, though.

    Could bode for a ugly week in the market, though.

  233. I’ve never bought metals or commodities because I always felt they never really appreciate in value; they just reflect the decline in value of the dollar. So I basically stay 100% in equities, figuring they will increase in value equal to inflation plus their real increase in value as a consequence of doing business. I don’t try to time the market; if I have done research and like a company I buy it, the rest I keep in index funds. That’s not been the best move over the past ten years or so, but suits my temperament the best.

  234. I’ve never bought metals or commodities because I always felt they never really appreciate in value; they just reflect the decline in value of the dollar.

    I hadn’t until recently either PFesser, and had avoided it for basically the same reasons – number one being volatility and risk vs. return. However, the dollar is tanking so bad and inflation and with inflation rearing its ugly head, I thought what the hey – give me the gold and silver. I’m up maybe 12% the last four months, but that hardly beats an indexed fund – that silver purchase was sheer luck.

    So I basically stay 100% in equities, figuring they will increase in value equal to inflation plus their real increase in value as a consequence of doing business. I don’t try to time the market; if I have done research and like a company I buy it, the rest I keep in index funds.

    Textbook strategy and still a smart one IMO. Problem is, my textbook strategy has given me zero results for 12 years – with inflation as a loss. The commodity was simply to dabble. My one pure IRA account is now almost exclusively oil, gold, copper and steel – and the oil is everything from China to Canada, which has done very well recently, but so has most other investments.

    Just recently I moved our 401ks into 62% fixed funds – I have that bad feeling about the equity market, but don’t have anything but irrational fear to base that. Looked out one day and thought, “for the time, that amount will have to do.”

    Our college funds are almost exclusively best of breed: J&J, P&G, Exxon Mobil, Walmart, Rio Tinto, etc…did bail on the financial and telecomm part with JPM/Verizon recently. And my wife simply refuses to sell her BP (yuck, I know) she’s held since it was Sinclair Oil about 40 years ago. 🙂 We took it in the shorts (no pun intended) one that one last year.

    She lives by the creed if you don’t sell, you haven’t lost anything. 😡

  235. Yeah, I just heard that Muffy – head shot.

    Excellent job military – personal thanks to our resident expert Gorilla. Pass it on to all involved you know Gorilla, that the American public thanks you for the persistence hard work.

    Great work guys!

  236. Its awesome.

    This beer I’m drinking is for that agent that capped two stink beards in Pakistan and was arrested.

    That dude was a bad ass. Never backed down despite being in a Paky jail and guys like Poolman back home fucking him over.

  237. Man, it feels refreshing waiting for Obama with positive anticipation.

    LOL! A first. And I predict the last; until next November when we can say “HEY HEY HEY! Goodbye…

    Eye for an eye.

  238. Hook,
    line,
    sinker…

    This version really makes us look good. Perfect timing, too. Patches up that little Pakistan mess.

    He couldn’t have done that one without a teleprompter. He wasn’t comfortable delivering that version at all, I could see the glaze over…

  239. Thank you Rabbit.

    I want EVERYONE here to give props to the Commander-in-Chief who authorized the murder of Public Enemy #1.

    I just covered Obama’s speech live on my “radio” show. I don’t know if it got through as I blasted my TV through my head mic.

    To those here who said bin Laden was already dead … ehhhh no.

    P.S. I think Gorilla had told us bin Laden was alive. Furthermore, Christiane Amanpour said on “Real Time with Bill Maher” a couple of years ago that bin Laden was not in a cave but in a mansion. She was f*cking right!!! (At the time, some of you told me to ignore Amanpour.)

  240. People are celebrating outside the White House.

    OK, boys … let’s see a bit of patriotism behind OUR President, at least for one evening!!!! 🙂

  241. Furthermore, Christiane Amanpour said on “Real Time with Bill Maher” a couple of years ago that bin Laden was not in a cave but in a mansion. She was f*cking right!!! (At the time, some of you told me to ignore Amanpour.)

    Doesn’t this comment make your man look pretty inept then? If we really knew UBL was in a mansion in Pakistan, undoubtedly CNN and ABC do have a better handle on intelligence than Leon Panetta. 😉

    Give credit where credit is due Sad Sack. This isn’t an Obama success. This is a U.S. military success. The same military than your ilk has called baby killers and mercenaries less than three years ago. And let’s not forget, that same military slaughtered UBL’s own set of mercenaries on Iraqi battlefields.

    Let’s hear you give our military support for one evening! 😉

  242. Hey Al-Poolman, the Pali loving, Jew hating POS.

    I’ve only got one thing to say to you tonight, and I’ve been waiting to give this response to you and your Pali ululating thugs celebraing on the streets after 9/11 with candy in your mouths.

    ULULULULULULULULULULULULULULULLULULULU!

  243. Tex, a local FOX affiliate said “Obama bin Laden was killed” so obviously lots of folks are slipping lips. I even mixed the names up on my show tonight. It’s easy to do.

  244. I know how easy it to do. The only difference between Osama and Obama is a little “bs”. Remember? 🙂

  245. Crowd outside White House is going wild … same thing in Times Square. Fireworks in North Carolina.

    This is the anniversary of the announcement of Hitler’s death in 1945 by the way.

  246. Report is that we didn’t ask Pakistan for “permission” to do the deal. We just did it and told them afterward.

    Zardari can’t be trusted IMHO so I’m glad we just did the deal.

  247. Ah Rutherford, it wasn’t but two weeks ago, mofos like you right here on this board were insinuating our troops in Afghanistan were nothing but cold blooded killers of innocents. Remember that little jewel?

    Oh, how conveniently you’ve forgotten how you’ve referred to our military the last couple of years.

    And here’s something nobody else is picking up on. Why should our military need clearance from “BO” to kill Bin Laden? Why the fuck is that not a standing order General George S. Rutherford?

  248. Tex, like so many conservatives, you lack the ability to understand nuance, my objections have never been with the troops but with the missions. They do as ordered and are for the most part heroic in doing so. (Yes Abu Graib and the recent Kill Teams are exceptions but I believe them to be rare.)

    That is why our behavior toward Vietnam vets was so shameful. The war might have been wrong, but those guys did what they had to do.

  249. Tex … admit it dude … Obama is having a good night. We won’t hold it against you.

    Just admit it dude.

    C’mon just admit it.

    Just admit it. 🙂

  250. Tex, like so many conservatives, you lack the ability to understand nuance, my objections have never been with the troops but with the missions.

    Really? Uh huh. Well like so many libs, you lack the ability to tell the honest truth and frame your contempt as “nuanced”, as if our troops are simply a bunch of mindless hacks only following orders – poor, mindless jackboots goosestepping into war one minute, pitiful rubes too dumb to realize their just tools for evil Cheney in another. Either is equally offensive..

    And it is insulting to every military man and woman fighting this war and especially in Iraq, when you continue to try and cover your disdain with “nuance” masquerading as nothing but sheer politic; as if our fabulous military personnel too ignorant to do nothing but follow Hitler’s war criminal Cheney’s orders.

    Spare me…

  251. Rutherford…you couldn’t go ten seconds without the narrative being political. Putrid. Your first comment is not “way to go soldier. ” It’s “Obama may have just won the election.”

    You can take off the mask of patriot and revert back to political hack anytime now. Look at your Twitter account for no further proof. Obama just won the election? Are you kidding? I’m laughing at you.

    Let me etch this in stone. Two weeks from today, as gas sits at $5.00 a gallon and the double dip begins to take foot, inflation rears its ugly head, and the thrill of the kill is gone as the gas tank empties – UBL will become a footnote.

    Wanna bet?

  252. So let me get this straight….

    We’re supposed to give Obama props because he didn’t punk out like a bitch and let Osama go?

    I don’t think so.

    I only have 1 question…

    “How the hell did today’s developments move our country forward?”

  253. I went to a debate in Palm Springs tonight where the topic was the US participation in the UN. I was hoping to hear a good debate that was devoid of the usual BS and rhetoric.

    I was sadly disappointed. The same old talking points came out. Sovereignty. Israel. Corruption. Blah. Blah. Blah.

    Sadly, the person (Nancy Soderberg) arguing in favor was not that strong in her arguments. At times I was wishing I was the one taking the guy on. But, as it always is, it was cool meeting a real diplomat and hearing some of the stories (I met Joe Melrose very briefly last week in NYC).

    By the end of the night, the room seemed an even split. And I am confident not a single mind was changed.

  254. I’m tired…

    To Poolman: FUCK YOU.

    Listen, it’s been a long night, but a couple thoughts.

    UBL’s death should make us all feel warm and fuzzy inside. The fact that it was Seals, well, really who else?

    It’s a good day.

  255. “Tex, like so many conservatives, you lack the ability to understand nuance, my objections have never been with the troops but with the missions.”

    General Betray Us?

    Real fucking nuanced.

  256. Damn straight Gorilla. Let’s give the Navy Seals and the intelligence community credit where credit is due. And a footnote – since no one was killed, this is one time I’m glad we had a mechanical failure of equipment.

    Our soldiers are so damn good, they left a bonfire there for those sorry pricks to stare at through the evening, to remind those bastards what awaits them if they want to fuck with America. The only thing that would have made it sweeter is if the real “brains” behind the operation, Ayman al Zawahiri, had been with UBL. Tell the guys, “Sweet! Now let’s roll that bastard too and throw in Mullah Omar as a bonus.”

    Rutherford as usual wants to make this about Obama and his reelection campaign. The Narcissist and megalomaniac is practically irrelevant anymore unless America screws up and is stupid enough to reelect him again.

    I think it is time that our forgotten military get the credit for conducting this war. It’s always been their asses on the line. The fact that Obama had to announce he gave the consent to the mission actually pisses me off.

    Micromanagement is no way to run a war.

    Congrats, my friend. I thought UBL had died some ignominious death and I was wrong. And in this instance, I’m glad I was – a bullet to the head from an American gun was the only way for that bastard to die. Now UBL can rot in hell for eternity – and that’s real justice.

  257. Al-Poolman’s beloved and elected Hamas Klan condemns the murder of Bin Laden.

    Let’s give them a state!

  258. Obama consented to the mission. Real corageous. Why not read him his Miranda rights and give im a trial? Pffft.

    Election in the bag? You’re going to regret that one R.

  259. Good morning.

    “…head shot…”

    I hope it was a face shot.

    Yay. Hooray. Thank you soldiers. You got him. You got him good.

  260. Damn, those Seals might as well be jumping out of that helicopter….

    You just got to know the last thought going through UBL’s mind when he saw those guys streaming out of that helicopter was “Times up. I better kiss my ass goodbye.”

    I want the pictures..with emphasis on bullet holes and brain matter.

  261. Ironic the tip that caught Bin Laden came from GITMO.

    Buwahahahahahaha…Darth Cheney has struck again!

  262. Buried at sea…
    To comply with Islamic tradition. 😆

    How convenient.

    Theater, baby. Kabuki at its finest.

    Believe what you want. I’m not the one on the government’s payroll.

  263. Tex, a local FOX affiliate said “Obama bin Laden was killed” so obviously lots of folks are slipping lips. I even mixed the names up on my show tonight. It’s easy to do.

    You got the flask in your sock like Dimocratic Brother Teddy when you’re on the show?

  264. I don’t know about anyone else, but I won’t be absolutely satisfied until I see a body.

  265. What the fuck is this buried at sea bullshit?

    That’s it…. I am calling bullshit.

    I fully believe that Obama is a lying bastard enough to lie about killing OBL to gain political points as we enter campaign season, and to give us a reason to ditch Afghanistan.

    Something other than “because I said so” had better be forthcoming.

  266. Sung to the Tune Give Me Three Steps…

    ♫ ♫ ♫
    Osama was carrying his rug
    Strolling in a place he had dug
    Walking a goat named Little Abu

    When in walked a man
    With a M-16 in his hand
    And he was looking for you know who

    He said, “Hey tall fellow
    With the teeth colored yellow?
    Now what ya going to do?
    ‘Cause that was my country there
    That you had tried to scare
    And now I’m going to cut you in two…

    I said, “Shiite”

    I was scared and fearing for my life
    So I pulled that woman in front of me
    ‘Cause that Seal was lean, mean
    Big and bad, Mo
    With that M-16 pointed at me

    Oh, wait a minute, Mister
    America? Didn’t mean to diss her
    I never thought I’d be staring at you
    And I know you don’t owe me
    And I know the infidel hates me
    But could I ask one favor from you?

    Oh, won’t you give me three steps
    Gimme three steps, Mister
    Gimme three steps towards the door
    Gimme three steps
    Gimme three steps, Mister
    And you’ll never see my sorry ass no more, for sure

    Well, my crowd was being blown away
    And I began to pray
    I threw my Koran down on the floor
    And just like my elder son
    Well, it weren’t no fun
    Staring right a Seal’s gun bore

    Well, the Seal turned and took my Little Abu
    And that’s the break I was looking for
    But the last thing I remember is that bullet piercing my brain
    Before this buffed demon started romping my back door.

    Oh, won’t you give me three steps
    Gimme three steps, Mister
    Gimme three steps towards the door
    Gimme three steps
    Gimme three steps, Mister
    And you’ll never see my sorry ass no more

    Now Mo’s stabbing me in the back door…

    ♫ ♫ ♫

  267. Who’s gonna take him? What do you do with the body?

    If you bury him, you create a shrine. What country would want to welcome the corpse of the most vile human being since Hitler?

    He’s gone and the jihadis get nothing in the end. No shrine, no nothing. He’s simply vanished to them.

  268. Agreed Gorilla. I hope the last thing they did to that corpse was piss on hm when he went over the side. I’d have waxed his ass in pig lard, given the chance.

    But do they carry that kind of sophistication in the field to determine DNA in less than six hours?

    If so, that’s high tech stuff that most pathology labs don’t even carry.

  269. Look G. There is a good chance you know something about this that we don’t. But you need to remember that from our end, the only proof we have that this went on is Candidate Obama telling us that it did. That’s it.

    So you’ll have to excuse me if I am a bit skeptical.

  270. Why liberals make me sick…

    I’m Not Cheering

    I will make this brief:
    I do not recall a single moment in my life when I felt it right to cheer for someone’s death.
    I’m not saying it’s wrong to do so — I just don’t find myself able to relate to it. I can comprehend celebrating events which may involve someone’s death (winning a war, conducting a raid which safely gets hostages home). I just don’t connect with the idea of “we finally killed him. Let’s go out and celebrate!”
    And yeah, on a certain level, I get the mocking of Republicans because Bush didn’t get Bin Laden and “we” did. I get the idea that people have focused all their attention on Bin Laden for nearly a decade now, so this may come as a welcome sign that things are moving in the right direction. Did he deserve to die? Probably. I don’t know. I don’t favor the death penalty; I never have, but that doesn’t mean I don’t understand why some do. I just don’t feel like “deserve” means anything. Justice is not always about what people deserve.
    Was it just for Bin Laden to die? Again, probably, but I can’t claim to speak for justice. That’s part of our law: we do not have monarchs, kings, emperors or gods to make sole decisions of justice. It is a collaborative process. Collectively, as a country, I think we do believe that, but that doesn’t necessarily make it just.
    But the man is dead, and not without reason, and while I think it was reasonable and expected that this day would come, there is no possible way I can find it in me to cheer about it.
    I don’t begrudge anyone what they feel, and I’m not criticizing anyone. I’m just saying, in as simple terms as I can, that I just don’t feel it, and I’m fairly certain I can’t stomach to watch it.

  271. Let’s just say I have it on good sources. You know, the kind that smell the gun powder afterwards…

  272. I thought UBL had died some ignominious death and I was wrong.

    Good to see you can admit to being wrong about something. Shame you can’t admit to being wrong about Obama, at least in this instance.

  273. Huck, my agreeing with Gorilla in this case was not disagreeing with you.

    Let me explain. I think the way they disposed of the body was the correct one. Let there be no record of that piece of crap; no record of their claims of martyrdom. Let them stew about where he is and where he went and how he was treated. And Let the crabs and parasites eat Osama’s body – a deserving burial.

    But I also agree with you that the American public deserves full proof by with witnesses accompanied with pictures and records that Osama is dead. I don’t want Obama’s word for it, as I don’t trust that lying megalomaniac any farther than I can throw him. I don’t want the military brass telling me he’s dead either, because frankly I’m not impressed with most of them, nor do I trust them – politicians in uniform.

    I want to hear if from the troops deployed and the men who pulled the trigger. I want to see Osama’s bloated body with bullet holes in his head. And I want the jihadists to see the same.

    If our “leaders” are not willing to do that, they are elitists disrespecting every American citizen.

  274. Muffy, a face shot will make it harder for the crazies to identify him in the pictures that must be released to stop the inevitable conspiracy theory that he’s not dead.

    Nope, you don’t want a face shot … just a nice shot in the temple. (no pun intended)

  275. Are you guys arguing with liberals or arguing with me?

    Sorry. I thought is was the “nuance” that only liberal can understand. 🙄

    Are you arguing with Tex or conservatives?

  276. I fully believe that Obama is a lying bastard enough to lie …

    See Muffy, the crazies are already yelling “fake”.

    Fine thing we have here … Huck and Poolman on the same page. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! 😆

  277. G, they don’t need a shrine now, do they?

    All they need is 1 of his body doubles and a video camera and they can claim that he isn’t dead.

    And what are we going to do to show otherwise?

    At the end of the day, I believe he’s dead and that we got him. But, as usual, this was handled wrong, IMO. And I am fully confident that we will be made to look foolish when it’s over.

  278. Good to see you can admit to being wrong about something. Shame you can’t admit to being wrong about Obama, at least in this instance.

    For what? That Obama gave the go ahead to assassinate the world’s number one terrorist. BRAVO! BRAVO!

    Now, why don’t you give credit where credit is really do to those you’ve disrespected for nine years?

    How about you start by kissing Gorilla’s ass as representation of a military you’ve admonished since 9/11?

    How about apologizing to our previous administration who put all these tools in place that Obama utilized and you’ve called every name in the book, including calling war criminals? After all, the tip came from GITMO. Remember the place you wanted closed?

    How about you admit that from at least 2002 – 2008, you put your defeatist, pathetic progressive politics ahead of country and those who protect you and those maggots you cavort with, and as you once again demonstrated last night, continue to put before everything else?

    How about you apologize for the egregious crap you’ve posted about your political adversaries, too gutless to do it on this board, so you run to Sandi, and Larry, and Keith, and all of the other cowardly blowhards hiding behind their “free speech” rights you frequent, unable to defend your ignorance with your adversaries here?

    How about all of that Rutherford?

  279. Since you miss the “nuance” Rutherford, I can only assume you are conservative.

    No props to Obama until someone tells me why he made some kind of a courageous or difficult decision.

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