Protest or Abdication of Responsibility?

When we get right down to it, the behavior of just about everyone involved in the Wisconsin budget controversy is reprehensible. The most obvious villain is Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker who is using the need for budget cuts as an excuse to bust public unions in Wisconsin, or at least the unions that didn’t help get him elected. Eliminating the right of collective bargaining goes way beyond any needs to control salary and pensions. In fact it has been documented that the unions are willing to compromise on salaries and pensions. That is not good enough for Walker who wants to make a national name for himself as a union buster.

The natural response to this power grab is to put all our weight behind any and all efforts to stop Walker. Unfortunately, neither of the two most newsworthy responses to Walker pass the smell test as appropriate.  First, we have the Democratic State Senators who have fled to Illinois and other parts outside Wisconsin to avoid a vote on the budget in the Senate. Without a quorum, the vote cannot take place. To make matters more bizarre, the Senators can be compelled to show up at work if they are in-state. Hence, their decision to flee across state lines. This might make most liberals cheer but I find it plain irresponsible. Senators are elected to legislate. They speak their mind, they debate, and they vote. And the chips fall where they may. That is the way the system works. To sabotage the system by playing fugitive is juvenile at best and dereliction of duty at worst.

Of course the other newsworthy “protest” going on is that of the “people on the street”. But these aren’t just run of the mill people. These are not postal workers, or other public workers whose work would be missed but not to any great consequence in the short-term. These are teachers. When teachers refuse to teach, our kids don’t get an education. To make matters worse, they are not officially on strike. They are calling in “sick”. Don’t we teach our kids that it is wrong to call in sick to school when you are not sick? Not only are these teachers sending an incredibly hypocritical message to their students, they are encouraging students to protest with them. The students don’t belong in the rotunda of the State capitol, they belong in school. The teachers belong in school doing the jobs tax payers pay them to do.

In the 80’s when Ronald Reagan fired the striking air traffic controllers, I for one, cheered. There are certain jobs where there should not be the luxury of a walkout. Those jobs involve life and death issues (like air traffic safety, or doctors or nurses or police) and the education of our children. Collective bargaining is one thing and I believe in it but the threat to walkout should be off the table as a bargaining tactic.

Perhaps we are witnessing the consequence of a slow devolution of societal norms: whether it’s Joe Wilson yelling “you lie” at a sitting President of the United States during a national address or Christine O’Donnell making a career running for office to pay her rent or Democratic Senators playing hooky to hijack the legislative process or teachers teaching by example that if you don’t like the system just opt out. We no longer have any shame. Any tactic will do.

I’d love to just go partisan on this one. Clearly Governor Walker’s intent and methods are out of line. But I just can’t get behind folks refusing to do their jobs. Walker may be wrong but he’s showing up to work everyday. That puts him one notch above his opponents in my book.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

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106 thoughts on “Protest or Abdication of Responsibility?

  1. I thought for sure you would give at least one paragraph to the great risk my colleagues are putting the country in. What if their over the top signs (and there are hundreds of them) inspire someone to go over the top? In fact, I’m shocked this concern doesn’t dominate the whole point of the blog entry, actually.

  2. I can make a good case that there is never a need for a union concerning public service….

    Face it. Many of these people are highly overpaid when burden is included. If collective bargaining is taken off the table, it won’t be twelve months before they are demanding current wages and restoration of all benefits under threat of strike.

    Now as for my friend Rabbit, I don’t believe he is underpaid. His salary is too low In fact – when some toll booth attendant is making half again what a teacher of ten years is, then there is a problem with the wage scale. If Rabbit has been nominated for teacher of the year, I believe he deserves a substantial bonus – say 50% of his salary. That goes for all good teachers. But we’ve got to figure out a way to purge the dead wood from the classroom and do with less. I would suggest larger class sizes and fewer teachers, accompanied by increasing teacher’s wages (within reason) to attract qualified help.

  3. Well Rabbit, it IS funny that so many of my fellow liberals who were screaming about the Tea Party protesters are now not only applauding the Madison protesters but FAVORABLY comparing them to the Tea Party. 😆

  4. R, is there a anti-trust issue with the people? That is the whole point of unions, to address anti-trust issues with business, so does that apply to the people?

    I asked this before, but is it the role of the people of WI to pay for the retirements of the the public employee unions because that is where the bulk of the tax dollars are going. Are they here to serve the state or the other way around?

  5. Gorilla, 85 percent of the military are pencil pushers and mechanics. At least the mail man worries about pit bulls. I find it hard to believe that a Navy scribe can retire at 37. Or how about the military chick with a massive ass and children by 3 dads?

    Would you be averse to military pensions being only offered to those who serve in a combat zone?

  6. There are protests planned all over the country today in solidarity to those protesting in WI. I think people are starting to see the forest through the trees. Exciting times ahead! Priorities in this nation have been so upside down for so long, it is exciting to see the couch potatoes getting off their obese asses and taking to the streets. Turn off the TV and actually communicate with your fellow American citizens. Take a moment away from consuming and stand up for something righteous. Finally, enough is enough, even for lazy Americans.

    Screw the politicians. Fuck the wall street MANipulators. Piss on big banking. Pull the plug on the Fed. Start this revolution, baby. Take it to the streets. It’s been a long time coming…

  7. Come to think of it, Gorilla, don’t you work for the government in intelligence?

    Don’t you get a pension?

    Now, your service to your country while in the army makes me proud (and slightly embarrassed) to call myself a veteran.

    But, you are not in the military, now, correct?

    Your not going under cover as a fluent arabic speaking spy, are you?

    Uh…don’t answer that.

    What’s your pension, like? Because if you do have a pension, we need to start having a conversation about two things. The meaning of service to your country and exactly how replaceable you may or may not be.

    If I’m wrong, and you don’t get a tax payer funded pension, feel free to light me up.

    However, if you work for a private company, subcontracted out to provide defense of our country and your company bills Uncle Sam so much that they can afford you a pension, I suppose our conversation about the notion of “service” could still commence.

  8. Yeah, I was officially invited to one in Lansing. I’m making my Hitler sign right now. Because, you know, the debate over collective bargaining shares so much in common with packed trains heading to death camps and stuff.

  9. Re: Comment 3

    R, you are admitting then that the running theme here for the last year and a half, was utter bull shit?

    Or are you saying my colleagues are, indeed, putting this nation at great risk for violent attacks?

    Or are you just admitting you fell hook line and sinker for MSNBC propaganda?

    I’m not sure you can smiley face your way out of this one.

    Again, for you to totally omit the nature and tone of the protests is hypocrisy of the highest order.

  10. Rabbit, I’ve got a buddy that’s union, but “non-union”, and he is saying about the same thing you are. He’d like to keep his collective bargaining rights, but isn’t losing sleep over the issue.

    However, he’s mortified by the behavior and the signs in Wisconsin, and told me that is what turns him off about working for a union – the attitude of entitlement amongst a large part of the group.

    Said he’s embarrassed by the childish behavior.

  11. Here’s the bottom line in Wisconsin…

    “Elections have consequences, and at the end of the day I won.”

    That street doesn’t run only 1 direction.

  12. Had my softball meeting today. 9 out of 12 of us lost our homes to foreclosure. Out of 3 that haven’t, 2 have never owned a home and 1 is trapped in a deteriorating neighborhood (my old neighborhood).

    1 one of the guys is a con artist and has foreclosed 3 times. How that is possible, I don’t know.

    The rest of us range from mildly irresponsible to out right fucked over.

    Mark my words, blood will spill in this country if the banks start aggressively going after deficiencies .

    Some of the guys owe deficiencies 3 times more then their houses went for. 3 times!

    The banks could theoretically let interest accrue for 20 years and come after us.

    Every single guy on my team, to a man, is a gun owner.

  13. I have to chuckle a bit. For the past few years my buddy Rabbit has been able to comfortably testify to how the Democratic party has let down America. But now it is quite clear that the GOP is screwing him over.

    Rabbit is all over the map doing anything but blame the GOP. He criticizes unions but insists on the need for them. Doesn’t want “Nanny” f*cking with his right to collectively bargain but can’t quite bring himself to admit that Nanny looks like an elephant this time around, not a donkey.

    Let me be clear Rabbit because you are at a point where a wake-up call is in order. The GOP doesn’t give a rat’s ass about you. They love Wall Street, they love the banks. They love big business. They want to bust the unions wide open. They don’t give a flying f*ck about worker’s rights. They don’t care about your foreclosure because “real Americans” don’t find themselves in such a mess.

    I don’t expect you to become a liberal. Heaven knows Chris Dodd and his ilk did their share to bring the economy to its knees. So at best Rabbit you are now a man without a party. Your anger can no longer be partisan because just about everyone in Washington is on the take … the only difference is that the GOP is open about its disdain for you. Scott Walker has declared you and your fellow union members the enemy.

    Have fun calling out the hypocrisy of Tea Party critical liberals suddenly carrying over the top signs. The bottom line is the time has come for you to ask yourself what’s the matter with Kansas and why are you one of them?

  14. Rabbit, No politician gives a rat’s ass about you. Regarding your foreclosure, did someone actually pony up the balance of your note? Call and find out. If not, you may still have an out. I’ve been all over where you are at in the past 2 1/2 years. I may have some information to pass on.

  15. Have fun calling out the hypocrisy of Tea Party critical liberals suddenly carrying over the top signs. The bottom line is the time has come for you to ask yourself what’s the matter with Kansas and why are you one of them?

    For more than two years, my friend Rutherford has done everything in his power to hide, obfuscate, double-speak, mealy-mouth the revelation of what a failure the Dimocratic Party really is. An ineffective, inefficient immoral and corrupt machine, led by a community activist with no foreign policy, a failed domestic policy that may have finally led to America’s demise, a man of cliche with no principle, and instigator of racial strife, and a liar. In effect, Obama has declared war on corporate America and they have had enough of the hypocrisy, enough of being bullied, enough of Dimocrats playing both sides of the fence. Dimocrats are up to their eyeballs in Wall Street dealings. Corporations and shareholders are now fighting back and winning. The 2012 Presidential election is the Republicans to lose.

    One need look no further than the success of the last 40 years of unionization. Automotive, Airlines, Education, steel, and Federal union employees, all abject failures – pushed to the brink of bankruptcy. Does this mean all union members ineffective. No. Does it mean that unions have become big business, hiding the fact they have become what they were originally formed to circumvent? Absolutely.

    What’s the matter with Kansas? Absolutely nothing.

    In fact, record numbers of Americans are flocking to the sun belt for work. Better climate, better employment opportunities, a higher standard of living, and happier and friendlier people.

    Don’t believe a word of it Rabbit. Even Rutherford, though he will never admit to as much, knows that his political affiliations are numbered. The lies, the hypocrisy, the duplicity has been demonstrated, with Dimocrats now running for cover.

    The question that should be asked is, “What’s the matter with Connecticut?

  16. Unions? That’s not getting “screwed over”. That is losing a national debate in a democracy.

    I can take my losses that way.

    Do you understand, truly understand, the epic theft of Bush’s bail out and the suicidal corruption of Obama’s spending schemes?

    Your Democratic Party for the little guy is nonexistent. Where were you guys during the bail out? Where were you when Obama weighed my son down in debt?

    I honestly forgot. Do you still make the argument that Obama and his money printing schemes have worked? Does any one argue the stimulus worked anymore?

    The bail outs destroyed the way this country is supposed to work.

    Rule of law is dead.

    A man without a party? After the biggest theft in history, bigger then even the Communist Revolution in Russia? More like a man without a country.

  17. “Have fun calling out the hypocrisy of Tea Party critical liberals suddenly carrying over the top signs.”-R

    What a cop out. What a massive cop out.

    You have been proven to be either a fraud or a fool.

    This blog literally rotated around embarrassing the Tea Party for a year and a half.

    The Tea Party is the last slim chance we have. They abhor the bail outs and realize we are done if we don’t stop spending. I can break bread with any motherfucker that believes those two things to be true. Even if they hate the union. Even Red Sox fans.

    Disagreeing is American as apple pie.
    Call me crazy. But the merits of purposely debasing our economy on the back of the middle class while Uncle Sam aides and abets thieves doesn’t really show up in the forum of normal American ideas.

    The right is wrong about collective bargaining. Most of America agrees.

    But the right offers the only option for the survival of our country. That is much more important then my union.

    There are no trinkets or hand outs you libs can offer me. Not even collective bargaing. That’s because I want freedom for my son. And you sir, when it comes down to it, are luke warm on the notion of Freedom.

    You and your party refuse to see the obvious. As do most Republicans.

    Ps. Your party is fully of reveling baby killers too!

  18. Uh…full of.

    Poolman, even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. Too bad you have made yourself a laughing stock.

    But you are right, the Fed and the way our monetary policy is formed is outside of our democracy. I got 12 guys ready to feel business end of a baton over it, actually.

  19. “I have to chuckle a bit. For the past few years my buddy Rabbit has been able to comfortably testify to how the Democratic party has let down America. But now it is quite clear that the GOP is screwing him over. ”

    This quote shows what is wrong with democratic party thought.

    Rutherford thinks that what is good for an individual is good for the entire country, and that if an individual is getting “screwed over” then so is America.

    I don’t have health insurance right now, and am fighting off foreclosure every month. Does that suck?…sure it does. But I don’t blame the government for it. I blame myself, as those things are the result of years of my own poor planning and decision-making. So I am trying to correct the problems by improving myself…not government policies.

    The entire country shouldn’t be forced to pay for my mistakes. People like Rutherford disagree.

  20. Rabbit, they first tried to foreclose on me in April 2009. I’m still in the house. I really don’t give a shit what you think of me. I will do what I do regardless. I care less about any praise from men.

  21. I also find it interesting that none of Obama’s supporters here have said anything about his quote I borrowed above.

    “Elections have consequences, and at the end of the day I won.”

    Aren’t we supposed to assume that a majority of Wisconsin voters are in favor of Walker’s policies? After all, he won an election, right?

    So let’s forget all about the liberal hypocrisy regarding the calls for Walker’s assassination, and the like. Rutherford has now made it more than clear that those rules only apply to Sarah Palin, even when he has to stretch the boundaries of reality to get there.

    Instead, let’s focus on the fact that Walker was elected by the people of the state of Wisconsin to lead them. And, as President Barack Obama has already established….

    “Elections have consequences, and at the end of the day [Walker] won.”

    That’s really all that matters, isn’t it?

  22. This country was sold out to the bankers long ago. Lincoln was assassinated for fucking with the bankers. So was Kennedy. You get into what the Fed is about and do a full audit and you will see the light. Until then, nothing will change.

  23. “But I don’t blame the government for it.”-Hucking

    This quote shows what is wrong with Republican party thought.

    Sure, we both put ourselves in vulnerable positions. The masses are just as guilty as Country Wide et al. Hell, we all should pay.

    But, that attitude is making you a rube. The Fed and our monetary policy have high-jacked democracy. The checks and balances that our forefather’s intended are null and void. Transparency of the Fed and Fanny and any other quasi-Government economic mystery is zero. Monetary policy is kept a secret from the people. But you want to talk about how you are responsible for putting your big boy pants on all by yourself? All the while you take financial aid and government loans so you can go learn about exotic people?

    They have taxed our children to both bail out the elite and ensure this entire melt down rides on our backs. And you preach individual responsibility? You damn right you have a responsibility. You have a responsibly to fight the kelptocracy.

    Do you understand the Fed is behaving like a desperate dictator? They are doing nothing but buying more time, so that the elite can do as much as possible to protect themselves when true panic kicks in.

    We are wobbling!

    The government is infected with Fed and Goldman Sachs execs. They play musical chairs.

    Is there no line you won’t draw?

    I hate saying stuff like this. And never thought I would be.

    Hucking, its not conservatism you preach, its Toryism.

    Our democracy is on the line here. Wake up.

  24. Poolman, you are the worst kind of person in all this. You cried wolf over too many insane theories. You de-legitimize anything I’m trying to say.

    You contradictions endless.

    So, go take a fucking time out in the corner.

    You see, when you believe, or even entertain the idea, that the Twin Towers were brought down by America and cartoons might predict the future, you do a grave disservice to this country.

    So, go watch the Simpsons and suck on Werther’s Candy the next 3 years.

  25. Now you are getting all patriotic about America? I told you, and whether you believe it or not is immaterial, America was sold to the bankers years ago. The America you defend has left the building.

    But I am grateful the blinders are coming off your eyes. I like you rabbit. You’re real. I don’t give a flying crap whether you think I’m looney bins or not. I don’t answer to men.

  26. make is 265 on the bench, 5 reps…3 sets. I’m getting close to my peak of when I was in my late 20s. My brother and I are working the bag too. My fists are getting strong.

    Perhaps one day, there will be 10,000 of me marching in tandem, taking the baton hits like real men.

    Down with the Fed!

    Down with big spending government corruption!

  27. Rabbit, Huck, Poolman, even Rutherford.

    I don’ t blame any of you guys for the housing dilemma. I’ve never found any of you moochers or leeches, though I like to tell Rutherford he is. 🙂

    One of the biggest problems in America today is that the American lifestyle is situated to live on credit. How many of us can afford to purchase a home with cash, without benefit of inheritance or a trust fund? I certainly couldn’t.

    And each of you made your decisions based on a point in time, where you were measured by cash flow to make payment. Obviously, all of you could.

    I think one of the difficult measures in America today is the measure of risk. None of you knew that homes would depreciate, because homes had never depreciated before. We’re in a completely new world now. For example, if Huck is like millions in California, he may have watched his home depreciate 30% a 18 months. The only reason I’m probably not in the same situation as you guys as I was fortunate (two years ago it was looked at as unfortunate) that the real estate margin has been stagnant here for years. We never got the huge upswing in home appreciation, therefore we never had the depreciation when the market tanked. Looking back, that was a lucky break, because I never counted on a house to fall back on for additional collateral.

    And since your home was considered an appreciable asset, and it’s a part of your net worth, you made your material decisions based upon that fact.

    None of you should be beating yourselves up. Before the grace of God go I.

  28. Hey Rabbit. Dumb question. Are those free weights you’re lifting, or a machine?

    Because if so, that’s a hell of a lot of weight for repetitions. I don’t think there was a day I could bench 265 once (about 90lbs over my weight at the time) – course, I never worked at it either because I hated lifting weights. I did that much on a machine a couple of times and everyone thought that was pretty good at the gym for a guy who didn’t lift.

    Can I be your friend, and would you be my bodyguard if some of these crazed libs go looking for blood?

    Out of curiosity, how much do you weigh? No wonder you can hit a softball a country mile.

  29. It was clever marketing that got us all indebted to the bankers. Now they are sucking the last bit of blood out of us through credit card and banking fees. It’s a house of cards. They would love to dump the internet but it would collapse their scheme. They are still trying to figure that one out. Meanwhile, just keep drinking the water…

  30. Tex,

    I do have responsibility in the melt down. And it’s important I never forget. Or, for that matter, the masses.

    1. I remember, the day we bought our house, I told my wife and my Dad that the whole thing doesn’t add up. I joked about the unease of buying a house with no money down, a house I needed a second mortgage to buy. My Dad said, and I will never forget it, “not to worry about a thing, it’s a white neighborhood”.

    Yet, I still had that slightly half cocked confused dog look as I signed the papers.

    2. While i was over extended in debt, but making a ton a of money (at least my wife did at the time) we decided to go on a trip to Ireland. It was relatively cheap. 3000 grand. Charged.

    3. The hubris of a trip to the Emerald Island eats at me to this day. I paid it off. In fact, we paid almost all our credit cards off, to the point of our own detriment. Chapter 7 might be impossible if Fanny comes after me. But I swear the trip serves as the ultimate symbol of the disconnect we had at the time.

    I was brought up in a culture of debt. One goes into deep debt just going to college. Extreme debt became the modus operandi of how one establishes a life. If only I paid attention in church.

    It’s important to look in the mirror very carefully when you are about to throw rocks.

    You on the other hand Tex, got totally fucked.

  31. Tex…lol….. I’m pretty sure you own the necessary tools to stop dead any one who fucks with your family.

    I weigh in at 247. So, if you account for my weight, it’s not all that impressive.

  32. Damn, I better hit the gym if Rabbit doing reps with 265. If he keeps bagging on the Sox, I’m going to need to find him and give him an old skool beat down like we did to those Yankee mo-fos when I was paying $3 to sit in the bleachers at Fenway. That ain’t gonna happen unless I hit it hard. I’m also worried that Rabbit’s schizophrenic approach to his financial woes is a symptom of roid rage. 😛

  33. Ruh-oh. Tex, the OK city bombing is now suspect. It takes years, but the FOIA is a good thing. Too bad our memories are short term.

  34. “old skool beat down like we did to those Yankee mo-fos when I was paying $3 to sit in the bleachers at Fenway.”

    That was pretty damn funny. Almost as good as when Pedro choke slammed Zimmer.

    No roids here. When you have been cursed with a wiener the size of mine, you don’t fuck around with that.

    I cycle of roids would give me a clitoris.

  35. Because of the complete break down of the communication process, Bank America is holding in person outreach events down town.

    I turned in all my documents several times. We were ready and able on my end.

    I signed up for the event and have an appointment. I wonder what they are going to say, due to already going to sheriff’s sale. I followed their modification program to the tee, and it led me to foreclosure. Of course, not paying didn’t help either. 🙂

    I should have never gone that route. I should have put in for a deed in lieu with part of the agreement that there will be no hunting me down for the deficiency. They would have paid 3000 grand cash to boot!

    Little did I know that they were so backed up, they logistically couldn’t even make it work. I also didn’t have a solid understanding on Obama’s Fanny Mae policy.

  36. The banks don’t want to do loan mods. You need to work with a different organization that gets their funding from the government. Google HUD loan modification free services. I chose a company called Take Charge America. No money out of my pocket. They do the go between the mortgage company and you. The govt pays them. They give good advice and it is FREE.

    Of course if the foreclosure has already happened, they may not be able to help. Most of these foreclosures don’t happen, especially if what you owe is greater than the value of the home. They can explain what your options are. Don’t leave your house until you know everything. Even if it is up for sale and sells, there are options and you still have to get a 30 day legally delivered notice to vacate.

  37. Rutherford, 😆 The Guardian? That’s Poolman material.

    I doubt McVeigh went to his death willingly to protect a federal government and cooperating a federal government he hated. Do we forget the Murray Building was payback for burning dozens of people to death in Waco?

  38. Rabbit, what your father told you about, “don’t worry, it’s a white neighborhood” was an assumption millions made. You may have been negligent in overextending yourself, but it wasn’t because you thought the house was going to depreciate 50%.

    You may not be a financial guru. But that doesn’t make you a thief either. Some of these mortgage company owners were – and a lot of them were giving big time contributions to several Dim Congress critters.

  39. Regarding comment 32 … Tex, I really do appreciate your sentiments and while hindsight is 20/20 I believe what you say is true. I can’t speak for Huck, Poolman or Rabbit, but I certainly made my financial decisions nine years ago based on my cash flow at the time. I envisioned salaries increasing as the years progressed. Rather than believing I bought more house than I could afford, I pictured a rosy future of selling a house that had appreciated in value and buying an even nicer one down the line.

    I remember when I was a kid I visited the home of a junior high school music teacher who had been a colleague of my father’s. His home was beautiful. He must have seen the look of wonder in my eyes because he told my family without being prompted, “I didn’t buy this house out of the blue. This is the third house I’ve bought in 15 years and each time I sold the previous house and bought a nicer one with the profits.” I never forgot that story. I bought that as the American Dream hook line and sinker.

    Didn’t turn out that way,

  40. Rabbit, I just finished watching the Oscars and “Inside Job” won for Best Documentary. It’s about the bankers robbing America. When the director accepted his award he reminded the audience that NONE of these fraudulent bankers have gone to jail for raping our country’s financial system. (Bernie Madoff doesn’t count. He was a run of the mill ponzi schemer. I’m talking the CEO of Lehman Brothers, etc,)

    I’m gonna rent “Inside Job” at my earliest opportunity.

  41. Protests across the nation yesterday. Not found on MSM. Duh. They don’t want you to know.

    Interesting Poolman. My “radio” co-host Sandi was saying this very same thing on this afternoon’s show.

    I went to bat on the show today for my conservative brethren here on the blog. Sandi was talking about how the signs in Madison were spelled correctly (a slap at the Tea Party). She suggested that maybe if people wore teabags on their hats, the MSM might have covered it.

    I reminded her that some of the signage carried in Madison was at least as offensive as that at the Tea Party rallies and that perhaps the liberal media only turns a blind eye when libs have crazy signs. As I made my assertion, I had holographic images of Huck, Rabbit and Tex sitting on my fake leather couch in front of me cheering. 🙂

  42. By the way, just to paint a more accurate picture of how things have gone down in my neighborhood ….

    We bought in 2002. The house appreciated. Then the house depreciated. We are probably about even now … maybe a slight profit. Those who bought immediately after us (it was a new neighborhood when we moved in) are all under water right now. Those who bought more recently (let’s say the past year) are probably treading water.

    Two of my neighbors got real lucky and their companies paid for relocation so the companies absorbed the loss when they sold their homes. Others are basically stuck here and can’t “afford to sell”. Isn’t that a bitch? I always thought the phrase was “can’t afford to buy”. Well I’ve been there before. Bought a condo in the mid 80’s at about 73k and sold it in the early 90’s for about 43k. Wild stuff. But at the time I was managing third shift computer ops making serious offshift bonus money so I could take the loss and invest in a bona fide house (not another condo). I sold that house at a nice profit when I bought this one.

    All I can say is this is going to be one interesting year in the Lawson household.

  43. I hear you. One of the saddest things I think in all of this is not being able to down size. I never wrapped my mind around such a possibility, back when I bought.

    I figured sell it if I want smaller house.

    My buddy can’t sell his house. He actually has a lawn mowing company and makes a very decent living. He just can’t come up with a hundred thousand in cash. So, he’s stuck in a neighborhood infested with pit bulls.

    It really is too. Pit bulls everywhere, Dr. Sues style.

    What is it with single males and their fucking pit bulls?

    I live in yuppyville and was surrounded by two while walking the baby last summer.

    The real “there goes the neighborhood” moment should be over the pit bull index, not people.

    He has two little girls. 3 and 1.

    They live in fear.

    He actually wants to buy a nicer house and can’t.

  44. Rutherford,

    In a twisted sort of way, my life parallels you guys in at least one way.

    When I decided to change careers in 2003, like you I never gave much thought that the scenario, in my case my family situation would change. It wasn’t three weeks before my wife suddenly got transferred out of state completely unexpectedly. Nobody but the executives knew. It took about a year for her to physically relocate.

    I have no doubt today, had my wife not been transferred, I would now be close to being a doctor, if not one.

    If you want to know the real reason I quit medical school (twice – one for real personal reasons on leave of absence which was legitimate), it was this. I saw my wife four days a month. After about ten weeks, I was tired of my wife coming home every other weekend, only for me having to spend all but a few hours studying for incredibly difficult tests always on Mondays. And that was every weekend. Had I been 22, maybe. But not at 48-49.

    And that quickly got old. It was then I realized one night, I really didn’t care anymore what the world thought about “my personal successes.” Would I do it differently knowing what I know now?

    You betcha…

  45. And speaking of Sandi’s observations about the Tea Party Rutherford, she is once again lying, or at the very least parroting the popular lib meme. This popular notion the “teabaggers” are ditzes and Neanderthals that passes through the liberal blog rooms is bogus, and the few smart libs like you know it.

    The signs at Wisconsin have been not only over the top, but inane and predictable – and many of them are spelled incorrectly. You partners from the Left can’t have it both ways, because it has been shown the Tea Party actually represents mostly the educated, the successful, the upper middle class white bread – those your crowd accuses of “having all the money.”

    If Sandi really thinks she is that bright, that conservatives are that stupid, that liberals represent the “best and brightest”, I make her a challenge. Tell her to come over here, I’ll stop with the mocking pejoratives, I’ll take up the role of real debate instead of trading ad hominem shots, and we will have a “real discussion” about issues, difficult subjects and academia, and even spelling and vocabulary.

    Note that Sandi is another that never leaves the comfort of the echoing canyon of MSNBC, Politico, NYT, and the Huffington Post.

    I personally think Sandi is a superficial blowhard, who mouths talking points – a very superficial “sophisticate” to say the least.

  46. DR, it’s not the government’s fault that I was not interested in making myself marketable to employers until I was 40 years old. It’s not the fed’s fault that I feasted on greasy, cholesterol-filled crap for decades, resulting in a massive heart attack.

    Why is nobody responsible for themselves, these days? Everything shitty that happens to someone is always the fault of someone else.

    It’s time to man up.

  47. Signs from the Rallies. Correctly spelled ones. I think that it is disingenuous to paint either the right or the left as being more hate-filled or ignorant. I think we need to rather focus on the problems that affect all of us. Corporate greed and government complacency. We are not being represented by our representatives. We cannot fix this through government. Period.

    The America we remember and long for has left the building. It is now a fascist state where corporate interests are exalted over the interests of the people. It really has been that way for a long time, but is now touching all of our lives. Unless, of course, you work for government or are shareholder in a huge corporation.

    Yes, unions did overstep their intended boundaries and helped put us where we are. But their advent was necessary because capitalism inherently exploits people as well as this planet. It is strictly survival motivated, and without the compassion of people would cannabalize the marketplace, even to the point of its own demise.

    I don’t know if we can pull ourselves from the brink of this pending doom, but we have to try. If we don’t bond as people and oppose this machine, it will eventually grind up everything in its path. It is the nature of the beast. Firstly though, everyone needs to recognize it and oppose it. We are not near that point in the USofA. Mostly this is due to the continual ingestion of the machine’s propaganda through the media. It owns the media. It controls the message. I pray we all wake up and reject the elixir we are being served 24/7/365.

  48. I aint talking Twinkies, dude.

    I think if you’ve read what I’ve said, I haven’t skirted personal responsibility at all.

    That being said, you also should strive to for civic responsibility.

    Hey man, if you’re cool with the Fed, the Bail-outs and the big corrupt Government, more power to you.

    I happen to feel I have a personal responsibility to call out theft when I see it, particularly theft of my son’s future.

    Why don’t you become a Confucian scholar? They are all about taking “personal” responsibility, respecting elders and deferring to authority.

    Have the Chinese come up with one creative idea since firecrackers?

    Because that is what you think conservatism is…..Confucianism.

  49. You Republicans who are into sucking King George’s dick need to realize there is a new, young, and pissed off wing of the Republican Party.

    We understand the notion of personal responsibility. We don’t hate rich people.

    We are specifically referring to a crime scene.

    DC and New York need to be wrapped in yellow tape.

    Hucking, you need to stop reading about Damascus for a day or too and concentrate on your own country. That camel’s ass can wait.

    You aren’t even a professor yet, and you’re isolated in…dare I say….in a white ivory tower.

    Sure enough, you mean well. And, differing from most of your future colleagues, you espouse right wing generalities, almost all of which I agree with.

    But It’s a crime scene, dude!

    A crime scene left by laughing thieves with enough stolen money that their great, great, great grandkids will be living off the trust.

    They were aided by the government that provided the hammer to the banks to pound America.

    You seem to want to talk about moral hazard. I respect that.

    What about the moral hazard of financial institution too big to fail?

  50. “Hey man, if you’re cool with the Fed, the Bail-outs and the big corrupt Government, more power to you.”

    Yeah, everything I have said here in the last 4 years says I am all for those things, doesn’t it?

    I never said I am “cool” with any of that, so you can lay off that straw man any time. I speak out against that shit all the time, and you know it. What I have said is that those things are not the cause of my problems.

    Did the fed tell you to become a teacher? Did the government tell you to remain a teacher even after it became obvious it couldn’t pay your bills? Did the government order you to remain living in a depressed area? Did the fed instruct you to buy a home you can’t afford?

    That’s the thing about freedom. We are all free to make our own mistakes. You’ve made yours the same as I have made mine. You’re the one who chooses to keep a job that doesn’t sustain your lifestyle because you enjoy the time off. You’re the one who chooses to live where you do.

    I tell ya, DR. That meeting you had the other night with your little softball militia movement hasn’t done you any favors. Next time you’re bored call your brother and “invent” something, instead.

  51. “You Republicans who are into sucking King George’s dick need to realize there is a new, young, and pissed off wing of the Republican Party.”

    Who evidently enjoy sucking Marx’s dick. You seem to think that conservatism is selective communism and that government should back off, as long as it protects your “workers of the world, unite” mentality while it is doing so.

  52. DR, don’t your union dues get used to put government people in office? People who you then cry about stealing from you and yours?

    You call on me to do something about all of this, WTF are you doing? Crying isn’t going to change anything any more than drinking beer with your communist softball pals is.

    Talk is as cheap as tears. Why not take a real stance and stop paying your union dues, so that your hard-earned money isn’t going to electing people who are going to take the candy from your kid’s mouth?

  53. Yeah, we should have all decided to be bankers so we could not produce shit and just fuck the rest of humanity and their piss poor employment choices. It won’t be too long until no one will be able to afford any kind of education and the universities will be as vacant as the shopping malls.

    Short-sightedness affects the entire human collective.

  54. Talk about straw men. You’re using my defense of collective bargaining to call me a Marxist?

    Speaking of socialism, why don’t you disclose how much financial aide you have accepted, including subsidized loans, oh great pioneer of individualism.

    To be honest, I have done a terrible job explaining myself when it comes to unions. I am also thinking very hard about the arguments I have heard about the role of collective bargaining and public employment.

    Let me explain myself again.

    1. Its much better to work in a union as a teacher. The pay, benefits and quality of life far surpasses non union teaching jobs. I’ve worked them all.

    2. Its not sustainable. I’m ready and willing to take a profound pay cut.

    3. Ending collective bargaining does nothing to address the corruption in government that makes the situation so bad in the first place. Its yet another concession by many in middle class.

    4.I have no problem losing my rights to collective bargaining, as long as it is done within the framework of our democracy. Elections do have consequences. Those dems need to return and vote. I shake hands when I lose a game

    5.What happened with TARP was outside of our democracy. Congress’ intent (as bad as it was) was completely ignored. It was ad hoc and illegal. The government then made sure the engineers of destruction were able to steal TARP money. Our democracy has never been the same, since.

    6. I would trade my benefits, my right to collective bargaining and my pension if only one CEO was put in jail, sans bonus.

    7. Fair enough. I will look into stop paying my union dues. If I can prove it, in private, I want a box of Twinkies from you.

    8. My softball team takes your description as a compliment.

  55. Huck, don’t get me wrong about making excuses for personal responsibility, thought you didn’t name me in your response. I like your attitude about personal responsibility, as it should be – that’s what is wrong with America if you ask me. There’s an excuse for everything. Your attitude will take you a lot further than looking for excuses.

    My point above is that I feel a few of you were “victims” of an unfortunate set of circumstances. You make decisions based on the given criteria you are provided at the time. Though I thought the real estate market was indeed overextended, never in my dreams did I think there were so many people living on that much credit, and that homes could be overvalued for the area as much as 60-70%.

    If I were a rich man, I might dabble in a little real estate, because similar to the stock market of late 2008, I have this gut feeling that this correction in real estate has been too steep to the downside. Americans tend to panic buy and sell in a herd mentality – another indicator of our pampered weakness.

  56. Really, the entire debate over union is really one over lobbying.

    If we are going to after lobbying, let’s go all out.

    I don’t even no where to begin.

  57. Wow, Huck takes this in a very interesting direction. This whole issue of personal responsibility.

    Now I hear Huck loud and clear because I usually beat myself up before looking for others to blame. BUT …

    I know for a fact, I contributed to my own layoff. I pissed off management and a couple of years later they found a way to can me by putting me in the “layoff bin”. I was one of about 40 people in my org to get the pink slip. Now, just because I know that I had a small part in my own demise, does that mean that I can’t complain about my company shipping every job possible overseas and not coming up with imaginative ways to keep people employed (like offering them a pay cut instead of a layoff … which I gladly would have taken)?

    Huck, personal responsibility is all well and good but there are forces beyond our direct control that help screw us over. Why is it off limits to complain about such forces?

  58. With that said, I do think Rabbit’s anger is unfocused. Rabbit, you’re for unions but you’re against them. You’re for the GOP but you don’t like a party that curries favor with banks and the rich at the expense of the middle class. You dislike liberals but liberals were the very ones fighting against maintaining tax cuts for the richest 1% of this country …. many of whom have been robbing you blind by your own admission.

    Maybe I’ve missed it. WHO are you pissed at exactly?

  59. OK I wrote 70 as Rabbit’s comment was flying through the ether. Still not sure exactly who you’re pissed at but you did make a more structured attempt at spelling it out.

  60. He’s pissed at himself Rutherford. That should’ve become apparent when you acted like you had been waiting to provide Rabbit room suckle at the teet of liberalism along with you misguided friends.

  61. Tigre, I don’t think that government in general is satisfying your political priorities. How did Bush further your agenda in the previous 8 years? You may enjoy taking your shots at libs but what has the GOP actually done for you recently, other than talk a good line?

  62. For starters, the GOP did not enact that abomination known as Obamacare. The GOP did not engage in the preposterous class warfare and confused foreign policy that the Dems have led us through.

    With that said, the GOP has been a giant let down. As for what have they done for me lately, we’ll see. Remember, they only just took congress. Look what the Dems did over the last 4 years. Aye chihuahua!

  63. Why would I want rich people to give money to the corrupt and wasteful government? Dude, don’t confuse me with some mealy mouthed redistribution of wealth lib.

    The last thing I want is for government to grow. If the government wasn’t so wasteful and bureaucratic, I probably could get a 20 percent pay raise and cut the debt of my state.

    I am abstractly, maybe even academically, in favor of the right to make a deal collectively.

    This government might be too corrupt to handle unions.

    Is the government too corrupt to handle other lobbies? Let’s burn this fucker down and smoke out everybody.

    Well, that’s kind of tough to do with Obama in office.

  64. Yeah, I’m a little pissed at myself. You know why?

    Tigre, are you saying that you think I’m crying about much to do about nothing?

    Why don’t you defend TARP, both in principle and its implementation?

    Explain to me how 40 Billion dollars was given to the very people who wrecked the economy?

    They crashed the economy that crashed my wife’s job that crashed our ability to pay for a house with a crashed value. And got paid, personally, billions of dollars tax payer money that my son will have to shell out.

    I loved how you scurried like a roach when I brought up the enormous influence the bar has over politicians.

    Its time a lot of people start looking themselves in the mirror.

    So what’s with judgment? I have every right to be pissed over what happened. The fact your not is mind blowing.

    Oh I forgot, it happened on the tail end of Bush’s watch.

  65. I am the fucking Tea Party, Tigre. It isn’t Sean Hannity types, who actually had the nerve to argue the bonuses were justifiable.

    So, you can mock me much the same way Rutherford did the Tea Party, but don’t forget, I am the energy on the right.

  66. Hey Huck,

    I’m curious. What finally provided you the impetus to make yourself marketable in your late 30’s? Was it learned maturity, desperation, tired of feeling poor, the pursuit of academic pursuit and to better yourself, or just general dissatisfaction at your stance in life?

    I’m always interested in what makes people tick. I’ve pretty much told my story of what finally drove me to the point of making a break from Corporate America. It was a mistake for me to pick what I did, so I blew my second chance and for all practical purposes, that decision cost me big time. Still, I enjoyed the adventure and was proud that I got accepted to a professional school that is a very difficult admittance for non-traditional students.

    But not everyone walks to the same beat (unless you’re a goosestepping lib), and I find it fascinating why people chose what they did. Rutherford only skips to MSNBC, so I can’t completely shove him to the indoctrinated rube category yet. 🙂

    My creed has become “If I only knew then what I know now.” One thing I did find interesting about Graychin, before we got so crosswise that dialogue was no longer possible, was his admittance and his correct analysis of me that neither one of ever did determine real satisfaction in what we did for a living. It paid the bills and we were probably pretty good at the task at hand, but it became drudgery.

  67. “I loved how you scurried like a roach when I brought up the enormous influence the bar has over politicians.”

    I did? Who is “the bar?”

    “So what’s with judgment? I have every right to be pissed over what happened. The fact your not is mind blowing.”

    Who said I wasn’t?

    Actually Rabbit, you’re reading some kind of narrative I’ve never offered. I was cracking Rutherford. But I will say, your attacks have been so scatter-shot they’re susceptible to misinterpretation. So what was I scurrying from again?

  68. I actually like what I do for a living. I just can’t work for someone else long term. When I moved to Phoenix and was just a salesman, it was really the easy life. Bonuses, fancy lunches and dinners, trips to exotic places. Not having to get dirty or work long hours. No set times to be anywhere, except sales meetings and some floor time in the sales office. Work my own speed as much as I wanted or as little, depending on how much income I wanted.

    I left that because I knew I could do a better job both building these pools and treating the customers well. When the manager left the company I was with and started his own, I decided to go in with him. He gave me full control over everything. I worked 8 years for him and he was supposed to make me half owner in his business. After years of bugging him to get papers drawn up, he decided he’d rather not and told me to leave. That was a year after he stole his younger brother’s wife and left his. One year later his business went belly up. And that was when the economy was booming in 2005-6.

    It was a sense of pride knowing I kept him propped up for 8 years, but I was kicking myself in the butt for expecting him to honor his word. I had every right to sue, but my lawyer advised not to and just concentrate on my own new business I started after he gave me the boot. I don’t regret not suing. I hate that crap.

    I have plenty of marketable skills I have learned from this business. Dirtwork, carpentry, plumbing, electrical, tile setting, bricklaying, all kinds of concrete – flatwork and pneumatic, steelwork and welding, plastering and stucco, water analysis and care, CAD and other software skills. Then there is the sales and service ends of the pool and spa industry.

    So yeah, I can do a lot. I am just pissed the banks played this dog and pony show on me and plenty in my position. I know eventually they’ll be rotting in hell. I would just like to see them singed a bit right now. 😀

  69. Well Tex, and I bet a million mo-fo’s say this every day, but one thing I am going to instill in my daughter is work at something that turns you on. If it makes big bucks too, so much the better, but make sure you really dig what you’re doing.

    How many of us just do it for the buck (and summers off 😉 )?

    P.S. I finally got a solid client this month and delivered the goods. Had a good time doing it too. Now i just have to pay the f*cking mortgage. 😦

  70. Good news Rutherford….you’ve made more progress than I have. I turned on the computer with all my business resumes and the like today for the first time in two month. 🙂

    Man, I can not tell you how unmotivated I am at this minute to start applying for grunt work. Maybe I’ll be a patient’s advocate against hospitals and bust doctor’s chops for a living. 😈

    Will tell you this. My oldest, the medical school student, does love the stuff. If she didn’t, I’d tell her to get out of it, but she loves the material and the work – even in a lab (yuck). That she’ll be self-sufficient and probably marry the guy she’s dating (also in med school) makes me feel good that she’ll be able to be self-sufficient. Because daughter #2 is on a collision course with reality just like her daddy. Good student, absolutely no idea what she wants to be besides a sorority girl (double yuck), and she’s at least ten times as expensive as her sister.

    —————-

    Poolman, you did something I never did and I tip my hat to you. You had the balls to go it on your own. I never found anything I was that good at to make a go of it. I’m a possessor of about a million talents, master at none. If you’ve found something that holds your interest more than a few weeks, you’re one step ahead of me.

  71. she’s at least ten times as expensive as her sister.

    Isn’t it amazing how the ones with no definitive plan are the biggest spenders? Reminds me of my sister. Fortunately having two kids re-aligned her priorities.

    Poolman, the biggest challenge I find with self employment is having to wear every damn hat in the building. I’m payroll (LOL that’s not hard, no money to pay myself), accounts payable, accounts receivable, marketing, sales, delivery. I don’t do them all well … particularly marketing. I’m great at delivery. But actually try to market to a potential customer? Don’t even get me started.

    Tex, I don’t know how seriously you’ve looked for work in the past 7 years but focus on networking. The sad truth really is that it is who you know much more than what you know. Tap every contact you have at your disposal.

  72. I’m really taking this Sheriff’s sale hard.

    I knew this modification program was a con, but I think I convinced myself it was going to happen.

    I can’t believe they couldn’t make it work.

    I may have shielded myself from the reality of it all.

    I don’t care what your take on politics is, if the melt down doesn’t complicate your take on Capitalism and the role of government, your are in a dream world. If your still spewing the same bumper stickers, you just don’t get it.

    The government should have never gotten involved in manipulating the market to get more people in homes. If that isn’t proof of the inherent danger of a hands on government, I don’t know what is.

    My brother passed all 3 CFA exams, at great expense to himself…right before the shit storm.

    He is disgusted with what he found to be the current state of Capitalism. He is a debt consular for 45 grand a year. A CFA, making 45 a year getting told to fuck off on the phone all day. His dreams of being on Wall street dead, mostly by choice, but also by reality.

    Derivatives, securitization, credit default swaps, bribed companies who give bull shit ratings on paper poop, artificial interest rates, politicians completely paid off, 100 million tax dollar bonuses…is this the invisible hand Adam Smith so eloquently spoke of?

    Obama hires the same people who were behind this all and the rest is history.

    So yeah, my anger is all over the place. The middle class was attacked by economic terrorists. And unlike Poolman’s laughable 9-11 theories, this was an inside job.

  73. Tex, I don’t know how seriously you’ve looked for work in the past 7 years but focus on networking. The sad truth really is that it is who you know much more than what you know. Tap every contact you have at your disposal.

    To answer your question, I haven’t applied but for one job since I quit medical school, and then it was neighbor who asked me to apply for it. I was way overqualified, and the SOB’s didn’t even bother to contact me. F*** ‘um. My neighbor has never brought it up, probably feels embarrassed by situation having asked me, and I’ve never broached the subject, because Max is a good guy and loans me some of his hard to find tools (he’s an electrical engineer). 🙂

  74. Rabbit, 😆

    I got the joke. You got to remember something about Ruitherford – he’s first and foremost a liberal, and that means there’s at least one large screw loose.

  75. I actually started my own pool business before in Lubbock in 1986. So this is my second run at owning my own. In Texas, anyone could be a contractor. There wasn’t the strict requirements like we have here in Arizona. I was really naive about it and did not cover all the bases. I did a lot of work both as a subcontractor to a national company called Blue Haven, in addition to doing my own pools. I should have made better money and decisions, but ended up not keeping good books or filing taxes for more than seven years.

    When I left Texas and came out here and got in with a legitimate company, the IRS finally caught up and made me file for all those past years, garnishing my wages until they were paid in full. The bitch was that four of those years I would have gotten a substantial amount of money back in refunds, since I had paid in most of those years while working other part-time jobs for the city as a stagehand and in restaurants as a waiter. Mostly though I owed them. They don’t credit you any that you might have gotten back after not filing on time. However, they sure add up penalties and interest for what you owe them on all the others. That taught me you don’t screw with them because it catches up to you.

    Anyway, I got them squared away after a couple of years of being out here and I have filed on time every year since. When I started my own business here in 2005 I hired a lawyer to put the company paperwork together and a CPA to file all my tax stuff. The tax folks always get paid before anything else. Most of the time it seems I’m just working for the government, the local entities and the Fed. It really irks me when the mondo corps don’t pay in their fair share. This whole tax setup is toughest on small business yet great for those huge corporations with lawyers to work every loophole. We do everything by the book. It keeps us out of trouble and I have a clear conscience at the end of the day.

  76. “Libya also looks likely to become the first country to be expelled from the UN Human Rights Council.”

    Libya was on the Human Rights Council to begin with?

    I wonder how many of our tax dollars go to things like the UN Human Rights Council.

  77. A lot of libs on this board including you Rutherford have gone off on the evils of the private sector, some of it valid, some of it not, but if this doesn’t outrage you, then I think you’re dishonest to the core.

    A report from the nonpartisan GAO, to be released Tuesday, compiles a list of redundant and potentially ineffective federal programs, and it could serve as a template for lawmakers in both parties as they move to cut federal spending and consolidate programs to reduce the deficit. Sen. Tom Coburn (R., Okla.), who pushed for the report, estimated it identifies between $100 billion and $200 billion in duplicative spending. The GAO didn’t put a specific figure on the spending overlap.

    And you guys wanted the Federal Government to operate our health care under single payer? I will tell you that I think most liberals are not only immoral and corrupt, but flat out stupid. Even many of the “highly educated” ones.

  78. Oh man, Rutherford, now you got me looking into that one. Apparently, Gunderson isn’t the only one who thinks that. Forensic investigators are claiming the same. The autopsy report shows he was beaten in the face with what they claim is a club or butt end of a rifle. No drugs in his system and the injuries not consistent with colliding into a tree, ie: no body damage, broken ribs, tree bark, etc. Sheesh.

    I was with you, though. I thought it wierd when it was reported he ran into a tree and died, but figured it could happen and especially to someone like Bono.

  79. Poolman, as you might recall, one of RFK Jr.s sons died the same way. It is indeed possible to achieve such velocity while skiing that a tree could prove deadly.

    An actress (I forget her name …. I’m thinking Natasha Richardson but I’m not sure) suffered a similar fate. Hit the tree, got up, thought she was fine and died of a brain hemorrhage.

    Oddly, from the Wiki account, Bono’s widow claimed he was stoned when he hit the tree but the autopsy revealed only safe levels of valium in his system.

    And for the rest of you … this is what creates the entire conspiracy theory “industry” … procedural screw ups, and other oddities that lead to disputed facts, not to mention the testimony of people with an agenda. Conspiracy theorists would have a lot less to chew on if everyone did their job and told the truth.

  80. While on the topic of conspiracies … why is it so far fetched to believe that al-Qaeda, somehow planted heat-triggered explosives throughout the towers such that the huge firestorm created by the crashing planes, then triggered a domino-effect detonation of explosives throughout the towers causing essentially a demolition? Seems to me you can go there without implicating Bush or saying something so preposterous as “the planes were a video illusion and never hit the towers” (Yikes … I’ve actually heard that one!).

    Again, the question is were all lines of investigation adequately pursued? If not, why not? Laziness (quite frankly, I think so).

  81. 3 buildings fell at free fall speed through the path of greatest resistence. Physics experts claim that is impossible without the aid of other means, ie: explosives. None of that even begins to explain the craters beneath, including building 6. But hey, I’m the one who is crazy.

    BTW, regarding Bono: His googles were intact, brain damage was only frontal, not in the back as collisions generally also show, and there was blood on his back. Also there was no tree bark on him. Very interesting.

  82. “Conspiracy theorists would have a lot less to chew on if everyone did their job and told the truth.”

    So would lawyers. 😉 Thankfully that’ll never be the case.

  83. Rutherford, has it ever dawned on you as I’m starting to confuse you and Poolman, that detonations leave traces of residue? In fact, we are so good at “tracing” the traces, we can tell you where it was manufactured.

    I suppose it could have been home grown chemicals like diesel and urea, but those too leave a residue.

    The craters were formed by about a million tons of something called kinetic energy. Ever wonder why a relatively small meteor leaves a large crater? 🙄

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