WWIII Will Be Fought with Data

The year is 1983 and a boy named David finds his way into a top-secret military server and potentially kicks off a world war. It turns out that David is only a character played by actor Matthew Broderick in a film called “War Games”. Fast forward to 2010 and a nuclear facility in Iran inexplicably becomes compromised. It turns out the facility has been attacked by a computer virus. This is not fiction. No actors here. What’s more, the source of the attack is not 100% clear. It might have been Israel. It might have been China.

What is 100% clear is that computer viruses have graduated from criminal password/financial/personal data grabbing enterprises to large-scale industrial sabotage. The mainstream media covered the so-called Stuxnet virus as the story du jour for about a week and then the childish games of our Washington politicians bumped it from the front pages. The media doesn’t get it. The Stuxnet incident ushers in a new age of government sponsored computer disruption. It’s no longer some long-haired geek in the basement playing games. The potential for damage is tremendous. From exploiting vulnerabilities in Wall Street servers to infiltrating computer systems in nuclear launch facilities, a war fought entirely with software is now conceivable.

In tandem with this threat is the threat of information leaks. Bradley Manning would have been just another unknown member of the armed forces had he not leaked thousands of confidential military and diplomatic memos that found their way to Julian Assange, Editor-in-Chief of WikiLeaks a whistle-blower web site. The leaked documents have compromised our security and our diplomatic credibility. This story has had a bit more staying power in the mainstream media but probably for the wrong reasons. We’ve got liberals like Michael Moore donating to the defense fund of Assange, who is pending sexual assault charges. We’ve got others calling Assange a hero. We’ve got MSNBC and the Huffington Post reporting on near torture conditions for Bradley Manning who is under military arrest (and supposedly long-term solitary confinement). What gets lost in translation is the fact that this information, which in a computerized world is simply another form of data, can cause great damage to international relations and indeed lead to conflict.

And if you don’t think that information based data can be used as a threat, just look at what Assange told the media prior to his arrest in London. He said that if anything happened to him, an encryption key would be distributed to a vast network of trusted associates who had received encrypted versions of the leaked memos. They would decrypt the damaging information and distribute it. He might have been bluffing but his threat still summoned the specter of a distributed army of data-soldiers ready to attack at a moment’s notice.

In 2001, George W. Bush received a memo indicating Osama bin Laden determined to attack America. Many including me, made much of this briefing, accusing Bush of negligence. If we get out of the politics of it, one has to admit the briefing provided virtually no actionable information. Still it highlighted Bush’s and Clinton’s inability to track down this threat before it was too late. My fear is that as we enter the second decade of the 21st century, we are now faced with new threats that are not getting sufficient attention.

As we worry about signing the new START treaty which is basically grounded in the conventional warfare threat of the Cold War, what are we doing on the front of this new war? Albert Einstein is quoted as saying “I do not know how the Third World War will be fought, but I can tell you what they will use in the Fourth—rocks!” I don’t think it is a stretch to say that the Third World War will be fought with data.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

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205 thoughts on “WWIII Will Be Fought with Data

  1. USCYBERCOM plans, coordinates, integrates, synchronizes and conducts activities to: direct the operations and defense of specified Department of Defense information networks and; prepare to, and when directed, conduct full spectrum military cyberspace operations in order to enable actions in all domains, ensure US/Allied freedom of action in cyberspace and deny the same to our adversaries.”

  2. IF there is a World War III, that is.

    The outrage against Assange misses the point.  A dozen Assange copycats are going to spring up within days.  As the US government continues to make a martyr of Assange, the number of copycats will be squared and squared again.

    Bradley Manning (if guilty as alleged) is a traitor and deserves a traitor’s fate.  But I keep asking myself how a PFC (demoted from SP4) with obvious issues of reliability not only is put in a position to access 250,000 classified cables, but also has the means to download and transmit them to the likes of Assange.  Thumb drive?  Email?  What?

    Simply classifying information does NOT make it secure.  Access must be limited to”need to know.”  In an electronic age, updated security procedures are necessary, since a thumb drive can hold more data than a moving van did when the Pentagon Papers were leaked. 

    Doesn’t  anyone in “military intelligence” understand these fairly elementary concepts?  Apparently not. But putting 100% of the blame on Assange is an attempt to divert attention from the fact that we did this to ourselves through our sloppiness and stupidity.  And the American people seem to be swallowing it, because I have yet to hear of anyone sharing my opinions on this

    Did someone mention the Pentagon Papers?  Eerie similarity, eh?  

  3. Who hacked into Iran’s weapons systems? The US? Israel? Did the hack do damage to Iran, or just give them a heads-up about needing better cyber security?

    In the brief history of the Internet, security “experts” have always been a couple of steps behind the hackers. I don’t expect that to change. If you don’t want to lose the data wars, you had better keep your systems off the Net. Someone out there is determined- and smarter than you are.

  4. No thumb drive. Erased Lady Ga Ga DVD ala one spurned by his cross dressing boyfriend Bradley Manning… 🙂

    Assuming Manning guilty, four bullets and a blank. That’s all he’s worth.

    ————–

    Rutherford, very good. I hope I inspired part of this with our discussion of Stuxnet last week.

    I understand if you can believe estimates, destroyed most the centrifuges putting the program back two years. They still haven’t cleared it.

    Almost straight out of the Terminator.

  5. It was called 9/11.

    Lots of efforts have been made to expand the availability of intelligence to multiple agencies and services, all focused on fighting the war on terror.

    Yes, the Army- and the DoD writ large- need to have access to the State Departments cables, and vice versa. As I have said before:

    There has been a lot made of how this person could have had access to this volume of information. Well, it is called collaboration. Those who have been involved in national security know that different components of government focus on different issues, but all of these issues are inter-related. State Department officials need to know about military operations or threats in the area just as much as military personnel need to know about State Department officials efforts to rebuild an area or train locals on governance; both are critical issues in providing security.

    The security protocols for the different classifications are exponentionally more complex. The question is, and frankly has always been, how open do you make the system? Military Intelligence, vastly more intelligent than the Chin could ever hope to be, understands these concepts very, very well. The system is focused on the trustworthiness of the people working it. The system didn’t fail, Bradley Manning failed.

  6. Gorilla, in reading of the WikiLeaks stuff, what I’ve read that these leaks appear to be more embarrassing than threatening. I understand that it has damaged personal relationships, severed diplomatic trust, perhaps even screwed future relationships (things of that nature). I think Assange should be charged with intent to damage the U.S., because that is his purpose. He’d make a fabulous American lib.

    But did any of the data actually pose an immediate national security breech of classified technical information?

  7. “The system didn’t fail, Bradley Manning failed.”

    Spoken like a loyal bureaucrat.

    No, when grave damage to national interests can be done by a PFC known to be flaky, with a CD burner (thanks for that info) in a computer with access to the Crown Jewels, then the system failed.  Because a system has a critical and unpardonable design flaw if it relies on 100% reliability of 100% of the humans participating in it.

    The Army’s personnel function failed in putting a flake like Manning in a critically sensitive job.  

    If 9/11 hysteria led to PFC Bradley Manning getting access to (and ability to download and copy) that much sensitive information, then let’s unwind our foolishness brought on by 9/11 hysteria.

    Who supervises a PFC these days?  Anyone?  Or no one?  Has the Army changed that much since the VN era?  Definitely a failure of supervision here.

    Other than those little flaws, I guess the system performed spectacularly.  Right, Ape?

  8. In my work in consulting on systems of financial control, I always told clients that if an employee steals from you and isn’t promptly discovered (like on Day 2) then it’s your fault for having weak controls.

    I guess that the Ape would tell us that the same level of control isn’t worth the bother when it comes to classified information.

  9. If I felt like being all contentious and stuff, I might point out that Tom Clancy was writing about the potential with this stuff to his not insignificant audience in the last century, back when he actually used to write his own stuff rather than just put his name on it.

    In addition, I think it is a mistake to assume that because the empty talking heads are not jabbering away about it, that the right people are not aware of, and working to counter the threat. When I think of this in an historical perspective, I think of the stories about the British, who had captured an ENIGMA machine early in the Second World War. The story goes that Bletchley Park had decripted messages that the Luftwaffe was going to unleash Hell on the British city of Coventry. Some have alleged that Churchill was appraised in enough time to order the evacuation of the city, but made the decision not to in order to not clue the Germans into the fact that the Brits were reading their coded messages. It is a matter in dispute among historians and people actually involved in British code breaking efforts, but it does demonstrate the principle that it is sometimes better NOT to reveal what you know.

  10. Loyal? Sure, whatever…

    Known to be flaky? What was the clue to that, the protests to DADT? The Rainbow banners? Tell me, what made him flaky?

    You know next to nothing about how our intelligence apparatus works, the functions and responsibilities of the analysts serving, or the mission of the various systems. Yet, in light of such monumental ignorance, you’re ready to cast judgement on a system you know nothing about.

    Why am I not surprised.

    You don’t know this- really, you don’t- but Army PFC’s and SPC’s develop analysis that goes to the highest levels of government. I’ve seen PFC’s briefing Gen Petreaus on issues that you would utterly fail at understanding, let alone explaining.

    Yeah, we can criticize some of the security protocols that were involved, of course we’d be doing it out of context. He did it in Iraq, where he might have had network connectivity issues that forced the commander to take a risk on security protocol so analysis to be done. I don’t know, I wasn’t there- and neither were you. But for you, it is easier to blame everyone else…

  11. Flaky? I’ll get you a link tomorrow.

    Otherwise, I guess I’ll just defer to your greater wisdom, knowledge and experience and concede that the system worked splendidly. It’s all the former SP4’s fault. No other conclusion is possible.

  12. http://www.herald-dispatch.com/opinions/x1321866124/Cyber-defense-must-be-a-priority-for-America

    True enough – the military is always fighting the last war – or the one before that. Or look at TSA – what a joke.
    Overall the government is pretty clueless about computers…
    And not just a military threat – an economic one. How long could the economy last without a funtioning internet. Banking? Purchasing? Entertainment? All internet based now.

  13. Professionally I had a lot of contact with folks in the nation nuclear weapons labs. Folks who knew how to make a nuke – not just theoretically but in reality. The labs had taken teh obvious security steps. No writable media, no thumb drives, no cameras etc.
    They also did periodic psychiatric exams of the employees. A BIG problem with that one – if they asked for any kind of mental help they would get retired or lose thier clearance at least – so guess what – NOBODY ASKED EVEN IF THEY NEEDED IT! Human error potential again.

    On the industrial front I would say security is highly variable. Some kept thier property and control systems very secure. Others I could log into thier systems late and night – and nobody would even know. How many chemical plants and refineries could one drive up to today and detonate a few tanks of fuel or something worse? Industrial security is a joke. It is a wonder none have been attacked – except by BP and thier ilk who blow up thier own stuff.

  14. “The system didn’t fail, Bradley Manning failed.”

    Spoken like a loyal bureaucrat.

    “Loyal? Sure, whatever…”

    “Loyal bureaucrat” wasn’t meant as a compliment. Loyalty to the bureaucracy isn’t the same thing as loyalty to America.

    Not even close.

  15. Graychin, you probably worked with small shops too. That’s a poor comparison to a million strong global organization. Neither the type nor complexity of information is comparable.

    The larger the company gets, the more decentralized the coordination necessary, the more complex the security. Throw in the fact this was in war zone with many of these Jr. officers making poverty wages, and I hardly find it fitting to make compare the requirement in level and scope to an established business. Information is not worth much if it is wrapped so tight, people don’t have access to information who need it.

    The break down was in the fact we had a mentally imbalanced individual with intent to do harm to our country. It is fair to criticize Manning for being there in the first place, but this is what happens when you PC types place demands of diversity and tolerance. The military is forced to fill quotas…

    The most effective way to stop these types of security breaches is to make the penalty so severe for breaking the rules if caught, nobody valuing their own life dare do so.

    Put Manning in front of firing squad, which is exactly the just penalty if Manning has endangered anyone’s life, publicize it thereafter, and see how many junior specialist rank officers wish to share information with despicable flakes like Assange whose intent is to do harm to America. Assange should be treated as enemy of state, and a bullet put in his temple.

    We are at war, whether liberals choose to admit as much.

  16. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/manning-mental-health/

    Some of the highlights:

    The Army was so concerned about (Mannings’s) mental health prior to the alleged leaks that supervisors removed the bolt from his military weapon, disabling it.

    Manning’s immediate supervisor “did document prolonged periods of disassociated behavior, quite a bit of nonresponsiveness from Pfc. Manning. And, again, that progressed from the very beginning of the deployment and deteriorated somewhat toward the end.”

    Manning, 22, shows in chats he conducted with former hacker Adrian Lamo, who turned him in, that he was deeply troubled and conflicted. He was socially isolated and estranged from family members and described a number of personal issues that were affecting his emotional stability.

    But it’s easy to understand why the intelligence bureaucracy would want to maintain that there were no visible signs of Manning’s instability. That might cast blame on them instead of on Manning alone.

  17. I’ve seen PFC’s briefing Gen Petreaus…

    In the real world, 22-year-old clerks with less than three years with the company don’t brief the CEO. It just doesn’t happen.

    In the real world.

  18. Not unlike the Fort Hood shooter – plenty of signals that were ignored. Army officers share plenty of blame but will never pay for it.

  19. A question and a comment.

    First the question to Gorilla and I ask this with no hidden agenda of throwing stones (heck, I’ve even conceded in the article that Bush couldn’t have done much with the security briefing): If you and I had a chat on September 10, 2001 and I presented a scenario to you of a coordinated hijacking of commercial jets committed to a suicide mission, would you have said “could be” or would you have said “absolutely not … our intelligence can easily sniff out something that elaborate” ?

    I know from my years in corporate how immensely difficult security is. We had periodic audits of our data center. One day the auditor simply picked a tape out of the tape library and put it in his pocket. Then when he went to the first shift manager (not me thank goodness) to discuss the audit results, he plopped the tape down on her desk.

    On another audit, the auditor told me the opening to the window in the data center was too big. Feeling cocky that night (I was third shift manager), I told him there was no way anyone could get through the window. Motherf*cking contortionist that he was, he proved me wrong and word spread like wildfire the next day about the assh*le third shift manager who dared an auditor to break into his data center.

    In another instance, after I fired one of my employees who was a hacker in his spare time, we found personal emails of his previous manager (my predecessor) on his hard drive. Dude had somehow cracked into the mail servers and was reading salary data and all sorts of sh*t.

    G, I know full well you know the military protocols better than I do. I’m just saying that sometimes cocky complacency can easily take the place of hard-core vigilance. It can be quite easy to let your guard down.

  20. this is what happens when you PC types place demands of diversity and tolerance.

    What? Since when did political correctness protect loony tunes? I’m still waiting to see a link about Manning being gay but even if he was, are you now telling me Tex your new DADT argument is that gays are inherently traitors? WTF?

  21. I’m still waiting to see a link about Manning being gay but even if he was, are you now telling me Tex your new DADT argument is that gays are inherently traitors? WTF?

    No, of course I’m not saying gays are inherently traitors. I’m just saying what you won’t admit to – this is another clear sign of political correctness run a muck. This is what happens when any and all types are admitted in the name of your beloved “diversity” It weakens the quality of individual in the military.

    Manning was an imbalanced individual spurned by his cross dressing boyfriend, and “felt” he was under appreciated by his superior officers, so he decided to exact a little revenge. I think during discussion of DADT, maybe we should note that fact. I could give you the NYT Post that first drew attention, but I prefer to place this one on your blog because of the source. 🙂

    http://patriotpost.us/opinion/ann-coulter/2010/12/02/bradley-manning-poster-boy-for-dont-ask-dont-tell/

    How many military incidents have we had with Muslims suddenly going jihadi due to their religion of peace and killing fellow soldiers in the name of allah, all hired in the name of “diversity” Rutherford, Had 13 dead and 40 wounded last year at Ft. Hood, and incidents like the one below all but ignored from the appeasers like you.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jun/17/nation/na-akbar17

  22. But Rutherford, I am glad you finally posted about something that concerns all of us. It makes for a much more enlightened and interesting thread.

    Pretty scary stuff this StuxNet, huh? I commend you for talking about it.

  23. Speaking of patriotic whistleblowers – not that it is exactly news that Faux Noise are right wing shills. Or that those who watch it are the MOST ill informed.

    Spoken from the ‘PHD’ and theorist who has twice posted on this very site, that the most effective way to stimulate the economy is through ‘unemployment benefits.’ 🙂

    The first time I read it, I thought it parody. Then I remembered the source.

    P.S. – the AGW Issue died with the purchase of Al’s beach front home. The seas have calmed, the ice returned, and I hope you somehow played no small part in Al’s purchase. You can call that global hoax officially dead with Japan, India, China, and now Europe saying phooey. Like Hope & Change…

  24. Yellowdog, you have a PHD? In what?

    Piled Higher and Deeper in Fraud

    Continuation from the previous post…

    Our World: The feminist deception

    But at its most basic level, the feminist label has never been solely or even predominantly about preventing and ending oppression or discrimination of women. It has been about advancing the Left’s social and political agenda against Western societies. It has been about castigating societies where women enjoy legal rights and protections as “structurally” discriminatory against women in order to weaken the legal, moral and social foundations of those societies. That is, rather than being about advancing the cause of women, to a large extent, the feminist movement has used the language of women’s rights to advance a social and political agenda that has nothing to do with women.

    So to a large degree, the feminist movement itself is a deception.

    The deception at the heart of the feminist movement is nowhere more apparent than in the silence with which self-professed feminists and feminist movements ignore the inhumane treatment of women who live under Islamic law. If feminism weren’t a hollow term, then prominent feminists should be the leaders of the anti-jihad movement.

  25. lost the arguement so the personal attacks began – as usual.

    Why don’t you just answer his question and put the issue to rest ‘Doctor’? And we both know why, don’t we?

    Because I’m going to ask you a follow up, very simple questions to prove you aren’t who you claim you are – answers that you can’t Google.

    Look out, the house might fall on you too….

  26. It’s a whole new day and a whole new thread! Thank you Rutherford, and for one that is really pertinent.

    I want to first apologize for my snark and baiting of folks on the last thread yesterday. I was convicted of it and feel the need to ask forgiveness. So Huck, Gorilla, any others that were offended, sorry for that. Old self takes over sometimes and there is no excuse. Moving on…

    There are some that are claiming we are already in WWIII. There are certainly indicators that the battlefront is real in many areas including cyber space. There is the threat of censorship of this final area of “free speech”. I think the stage has been set to crack down on the last free bastion of independent thought. The Wikileaks saga has only made it a front burner issue. Though the information released is damning, it isn’t new to any that have been researching this any length of time. What is new is the way it is being played out on the world stage.

    Some claim Manning is a hero. Others claim he is a traitor. The same is said for Assange. Many claim he is just doing the job that the press is supposed to be doing and hasn’t for some time. I personaly think they have both been played.

    It is a complex world and things do not appear as they are. I trust the ones that have put their own lives on the line for trying to get the truth out. Many have been silenced. When people in positions of power do not operate in the best interests of the average citizen or the constitution of the nation they are sworn to protect, I think they need to be exposed and held accountable for their actions that are treasonous.

    Pat Tillman was a hero. When he tried to expose the treasonous acts of our government, he was silenced. The same government tried to spin the whole thing and used him as a recruiting tool. His is only one account. There are many, many more, too numerous to name.

  27. P.S. – there is no argument. There’s a rebuttal against your claim to fame.

    You can blow all the smoke you want at the Two Useful Idiot’s blog without fear of repercussion. Not so much here when you don’t have permission to the magic delete key…

    That’s the danger you face when you leave the comforts of libbie land. Like sun to the vampire…

  28. Pat Tillman was a hero. When he tried to expose the treasonous acts of our government, he was silenced. The same government tried to spin the whole thing and used him as a recruiting tool. His is only one account. There are many, many more, too numerous to name.

    That comment is disgraceful and a blatant act of military hating propaganda that would do Code Pink and Berkeley City Council proud Poolman.

    Pat Tillman was a patriot – so is his mother at one time. And then she contacted Jane ‘Hanoi’ Fonda to make a documentary after losing her son. Scratch that…

    Tillman’s death was tragic, as are all soldier’s deaths. Of course Tillman was used as party to recruitment, just like alumni are used to recruit to colleges, as were Hollywood actors who volunteered in WWII and Korea used as recruiting tools. George Washington offered bribes.

    However, friendly fire is hardly synonymous with treason. That’s not the American soldier I know and respect.

    And when you make statements like that Poolman, you’re no different and equally as guilty and dishonest and repugnant as the cowards that tried to whitewash Tillman’s death.

    It’s an insult to Tillman’s memory and an insult to a military that protects you and your family. War is a dirty business, nobody tries harder than America does to minimize civilians deaths at great risk to our own, and you ought to be ashamed to make a comment like that.

    That puts you on par with Cindy Sheehan. That how you want to be thought of around here? Some goon and idiot?

    Do you not realize that if it weren’t for our military trying like hell to only kill really evil people and minimize innocent death, America could have won the Afghan and Iraqi Wars in days by simply killing anything and everything that moved?

    Don’ t you realize the kind of fire power the American military could bring to bear it wasn’t for their restraint? In hindsight, I think we should have nuked Tora Bora and turned it to glass. But we didn’t, though it would have been as ‘simple” as tuning a laser guided weapon carrying a warhead Why? Because it would have caused a huge amount of collateral damage and possibly made large swaths of territory unlivable.

    So maybe before you cast judgment and make accusation of treason at the very people keeping you forcible submitting to allah or sawing off your head, you ought to think twice about parroting that crap you’ve read from dimwitted site with idiots who can’t manage their own mortgage, much less conduct a war.

  29. Tex, the truth isn’t always pretty. I have done a lot of research on this issue, since Tillman was a big deal here in Arizona. All the evidence was destroyed after the fact, but this we know:

    Army medical examiners (guys who perform autopsies) said Tillman had three M-16 bullet holes close together in his forehead which they said meant he was shot from 10 yards away.

    http://www.johntreed.com/Tillman.html

    So you just keep believing whatever you want to. You’re not a threat to the powers that be. In a land where we prefer to kill the messenger and silence the whistleblowers, freedom is short-lived.

  30. So you just keep believing whatever you want to. You’re not a threat to the powers that be. In a land where we prefer to kill the messenger and silence the whistleblowers, freedom is short-lived.

    Whistle blowers like Pvt. Bradley Manning? Even if true which I don’t believe, it doesn’t change the fact Tillman a patriot who volunteered to fight for his country, motivated by the horrors of 9/11. Tillman thought the American idea an idea worth fighting for.

    And the only reputation sullied is the perpetrator and the men who whitewashed the facts. Not the entire United States Military, not George Bush, not Dick Cheney, and certainly not America – which is what you, Cindy Sheehan and Hanoi Jane want us to believe.

    That is that we are the oppressor, the imperialists, the criminals, the terrorists when nothing could be further from the truth.

    It’s a form of paranoia and self-hatred.

  31. I agree with almost all of you, and I’m not sure that’s possible, so get your boots on, I may be very full of shit.

    1. How is Assange guilty and Fox News (and the rest of them) innocent? Is it like that 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon game? The third person to disperse classified info is a journalist, the 2nd a terrorist? I completely agree with greychin on this. Making Assange a martyr will make the man multiply like wet gremlins. He doesn’t have to give a shit about America and shouldn’t be expected to. The internet empowered him to kick the mainstream media’s ass like Gutenberg kicked some monk’s ass with a sore writing hand. Welcome to the new face of journalism.

    2. A scary thought. Dead Rabbit once had a Secret security clearance. I also was privy to Top Secret info at times. Yes, a E3 can brief the upper echelon of the military. I’ve seen it first hand. Gorilla is correct. Rank has nothing to do with clearance.

    3. That being said, there is another requirement when it comes to classified info. I had a secret clearance, but I was only privy to info on a “Need to Know Basis”. I have no idea why a Private should be entrusted with so many cables from so many embassies. Where was the “Need to Know” standard? Gorilla is correct, info must be easily accessible to fight the global jihad. However, common sense dictates that there should be at least some kind of physical barrier between the info coming in from different regions of the world. Maybe dividing the stuff up on 10 different hard drives would have helped? Seems simplistic, I know, but I have a feeling some common sense could have softened the blow. This is the secret correspondences of our military and state department, not Uncle Sam’s fucking itunes account. If grunts are putting their lives on the line to clear out caves full of sadistic Muslims radicals, surely some pusy in an office can walk from one room to another to get the full scope of things. So, Rutherford has every right to call the State Department and Army out.

    5. Tex is 100% right. A bullet in the head. If it’s now possible to drop data bombs like this, we need real consequences. Nothing would deter the next weirdo from doing this more then a bullet in the brain.

  32. Poolman is the biggest coward in the world. His charges against America make Darth Vader’s Death Star look like the Magic Kingdom. If I believed the shit he does, I would join a separatist group and fight like a man. I know that sounds like bravado….but I swear I would.

  33. That being said, Poolman is correct in one area. The powers of the world will attempt to use Assange to muffle our voice. They hate us talking like this. Every government in the world hates us doing this.

  34. Rabbit, here is what I think the difference Wikileaks as mass media.

    Intent.

    If FOX News had received Manning’s file and broadcast stolen material, then they would be equally guilty of espionage IMO. Obtaining posted material by stolen means with the intent to cause as much embarrassment and widespread damage like Assange

    The difference is that FOX, NYT, Washington Post, etc…reported information already widely available – the genie was already out of the bag and available for anyone to see. It’s still available.

    http://www.johnon.com/508/wikileaks.html

    There are some smart people who disagree with my assessment on both sides of the political spectrum. What’s really stupid is to think a criminal trial and the demands for retrieval would make for a deterrent. A bullet to the temple would.

    There are some things Russia does far better than we do. Polonium-210 tablets come to mind.

  35. Tex, the problem with your outrage with Poolman is that you seem to be sweeping a very key no-no under the rug. Why did the military lie to Tillman’s wife? Why was there a concerted cover-up about the man’s death? That cover-up went all the way to McChrystal in whatever capacity he was serving at the time.

    I can’t sit here and say Tillman was deliberately murdered. I tend to believe the story that he was just the victim of some overzealous gang who couldn’t shoot straight assh*les. But regardless of the circumstances, when a man gives his life for his country, we owe his widow the f*cking truth about what went down. THAT deserves your outrage Tex, not Poolman’s conspiracy theories.

  36. I tend to believe the story that he was just the victim of some overzealous gang who couldn’t shoot straight assh*les.

    Wow. Asshole much yourself? Crimminey, Rutherford. I sure as hell couldn’t do a lot of the stuff that Rangers do, and under the conditions that they are frequently called on to do it? I don’t think so.

    Friendly fire in warfare is not a new thing, and in the absence of any evidence of any intent behind it, I think your hyperbolic indictment is pretty uncalled for. It isn’t like he was some gung- ho butterbar likely to get a bunch of people killed, like in some earlier conflicts. I haven’t seen anything that indicates that he was fucking fragged fer cryin out loud. Shit happens on battlefields. Lines get confused, people get lost, and you can’t always make out who you are looking at.

    I think when you start jumping out of airplanes or repelling from helicopters with a weapon and a metric shitload of gear on your back, to spend days in the field tracking the enemy, you might get the right to be that cavalier. Until then, you might want to reverse course and just say “Thanks” to people who volunteer to do what you won’t or can’t in the effort to hunt down people who’d like nothing better than to kill you.

  37. Tex, like you said earlier, most of that info is more embarrassing then anything.

    But why?

    Sure, there will be more then a few awkward dinner parties between diplomats.

    They will get over it.

    What is a tough one is the hit on governmental prestige in front of the masses.

    Russia doesn’t mind being called a Mafia State by America. It is a Mafia State. It just doesn’t want to be called a Mafia State by America on a 24-7 news feed.

    What made the Wiki-leak dump so powerful was the way it was immediately converted into pop culture fodder. The mainstream media has made money off of the data dump. They loved it. If Assange is guilty of a crime, is not the MSM at least unethical?

    That being said, I don’t blame Fox for running with it. Nor do I blame some liberal weirdo from another country, although I wish it didn’t happen.

    The responsibility ultimately lies with America. As it does China. Or any other country that wants to stop us from the truth. The next Assange wannabe may spill the beans on something you and I will feel very fortunate to learn about.

    Assange didn’t yell fire in a crowded theater. And he isn’t American. He should walk. Kill the Private.

  38. “I tend to believe the story that he was just the victim of some overzealous gang who couldn’t shoot straight assh*les.”

    Rutherford, you have no clue how easy that shit can happen.

    The government freaked out:a national hero was killed in a way that would lower morale both in the military and within us civilians. So, they tried to take the easy way out.

    Saying America purposely murdered Tilman, with no proof, makes me sick. But then again, what else do you expect from Poolman. Too bad he’s on your “team”. It be nice to see you call the piece of shit out.

  39. Whooooaa BiW where did that come from? I didn’t think I was “indicting” the dudes who killed Tillman. I said that I don’t necessarily buy any deliberate murder scenario. Maybe you found “assh*le” disrespectful but sorry, when you kill your own you fall into the Keystone Kops territory. I understand it’s tough out there. I understand sh*t happens. But surely you’re not saying we pin a medal of honor on a dude who shoots his own guy. I’m not saying we prosecute him … heck he will have to live with that mistake the rest of his life. I feel sorry for him.

    I DON’T feel sorry for his superiors who covered the matter up. Your sanctimony dodges the issue at hand. Why was Tillman’s widow lied to? Where is your outrage about that?

  40. Maybe you found “assh*le” disrespectful but sorry, when you kill your own you fall into the Keystone Kops territory.

    Ok, Rutherford. I just told you, that shit can happen very easy. It’s not Keystone Kops territory. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? There probably isn’t a war in American history where less then 15% of combat deaths are caused by friendly fire.

    Look, I know you probably have issues imagining anything outside a fucking cubical, but read a damn book or something. You’re insulting.

    Seriously, I think your being an insipid little drool fuck on purpose.

    Ask Greychin, it can happen easily, by competent people.

  41. The link I posted is that of an ex-ranger. It isn’t the only source for the information, but for some reason I thought folks might listen to someone who has been there – someone in the know. Likely it did not even get read. Tex would discount it because it contains typos. Actually Tillman’s brother knows much more than he has posted for the public to see. It is pretty much his life right now. An ongoing quest for justice. I can relate, even though rabbit would say I don’t have skin in the game.

    When Tillman signed up it was such a big deal. If I was able at the time, I even considered signing up. My SIL tried, but was declined for health issues. We were all gung ho back then. I have since friended many who did serve and signed up at that time. A great deal of the “truther” movement consists of many of these guys and girls.

    Call me a coward all you want. I know plenty that just do their job and keep their mouth shut. That is certainly the safer way out. I cannot operate that way. Most that know me trust me with secrets because they know I won’t give it up. But when it comes to this unjust shit, I got to do what I can. It could cost me my life someday. Until then, I’m just sounding the wake up call.

    I have found that most folks don’t want to believe this could happen, so the veil is tightly drawn. Once the light begins to shine in, it can’t be stopped.

    If you go back and read all the declassified info readily available now, you can see a pattern. Like the fact (and these are documented) that Roosevelt let the Pearl Harbor raid happen to get us into the war. Proof he knew they were coming and did not pass that info on. And the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a lie. Most don’t accept it and therefore won’t even consider it. It is much more comfortable for them to just discount it all and label everyone mentioning it conspiracy nuts. I get that everywhere, so my skin is a little thick about it. It still doesn’t change the facts.

  42. “It could cost me my life someday” Poolman

    Blaaaahhhaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha h a. LOL LOL LOL

    Holy shit man. That cracked me up.

  43. In the real world, 22-year-old clerks with less than three years with the company don’t brief the CEO. It just doesn’t happen.

    In the real world.” – Chin

    There is nothing more real than collecting, analyzing and assessing information for a commander, who will take that information to make a decision that will likely result in the loss of life. I’ve seen PFC’s brief generals and then watch a predator strike based off of that intelligence. That E3 might as well have pulled the trigger himself.

    I take umbrage at your commentary 99% of the time, mostly because you intentionally distort information to fit your deluded political ideology. This is but another example of supreme ignorance, which doesn’t prevent you from flapping your dick suckers…

  44. If you and I had a chat on September 10, 2001 and I presented a scenario to you of a coordinated hijacking of commercial jets committed to a suicide mission, would you have said “could be” or would you have said “absolutely not … our intelligence can easily sniff out something that elaborate” ?” – R

    I like to think I would have said “could be”. We’re a skeptical lot, and those that are so adamant about what a group or threat will or will not do, well, they tend to lose a lot of credibility early on. However, in my experience, when I’ve seen that kind of behavior, it has been very senior people, so yes, it does happen.

    For me, I would have asked who? Are they capable of that kind of attack? Have they ever done something similar? Have they ever inclined that they would do something similar to this? Etc…

    My first inclination would have been Lebanese Hezbollah because of the sophistication of the operation. However, number two would have been al Qaida because they too have struck us before with major suicide attacks.

    However, AQ had declared war on the US by that point. It is hard to fathom that 9/11 would have been in the interest of LH. Sure, they did Beirut and were involved with Khobar Towers, but they had interest in those attacks, namely to get us out of the region. By hitting New York and DC, they would have realized that we would respond with overwhelming force. AQ wanted that, not LH.

    Hope this answers your question.

  45. Speaking of patriotic whistleblowers – not that it is exactly news that Faux Noise are right wing shills. Or that those who watch it are the MOST ill informed.” – The Bitch

    Really? You were saying about shills…

    http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=hd6U8zuzkU

    As for your grand revelation of bias, well, not exactly. The descriptors of the “public option” actually do more accurately describe WHAT that public option really is. You’re just pissed because the charade you were attempting to pull over the American people wasn’t propagated.

    As for Climategate, this shows just how much of a hack you really are. Wow, we’re not going to call man-made global warming a ”fact”. Well guess what genius, its NOT a fact. I know, this again runs counter to the propaganda you on the left have been shilling for years, but that doesn’t change the FACT that man-made global warming is a THEORY.

    You truly are an idiot…

  46. The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light,
    I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight.
    My wife was asleep, her head on my chest,
    My daughter beside me, angelic in rest.
    Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white,
    Transforming the yard to a winter delight.

    The sparkling lights in the tree I believe,
    Completed the magic that was Christmas Eve.
    My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep,
    Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep.
    In perfect contentment, or so it would seem,
    So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream.

    The sound wasn’t loud, and it wasn’t too near,
    But I opened my eyes when it tickled my ear.
    Perhaps just a cough, I didn’t quite know,
    Then the sure sound of footsteps outside in the snow.
    My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear,
    And I crept to the door just to see who was near.

    Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night,
    A lone figure stood, his face weary and tight.
    A soldier, I puzzled, some twenty years old,
    Perhaps a Marine, huddled here in the cold.
    Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled,
    Standing watch over me, and my wife and my child.

    “What are you doing?” I asked without fear,
    “Come in this moment, it’s freezing out here!
    Put down your pack, brush the snow from your sleeve,
    You should be at home on a cold Christmas Eve!”
    For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift,
    Away from the cold and the snow blown in drifts…

    To the window that danced with a warm fire’s light
    Then he sighed and he said, “Its really all right,
    I’m out here by choice. I’m here every night.
    “It’s my duty to stand at the front of the line,
    That separates you from the darkest of times.

    No one had to ask or beg or implore me,
    I’m proud to stand here like my fathers before me.
    My Gramps died at ‘ Pearl on a day in December,”
    Then he sighed, “That’s a Christmas ‘Gram always remembers.”
    My dad stood his watch in the jungles of ‘ Nam ‘,
    And now it is my turn and so, here I am.

    I’ve not seen my own son in more than a while,
    But my wife sends me pictures, he’s sure got her smile.”
    Then he bent and he carefully pulled from his bag,
    The red, white, and blue… an American flag.
    “I can live through the cold and the being alone,
    Away from my family, my house and my home.

    I can stand at my post through the rain and the sleet,
    I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat.
    I can carry the weight of killing another,
    Or lay down my life with my sister and brother..
    Who stand at the front against any and all,
    To ensure for all time that this flag will not fall.”

    “So go back inside,” he said, “harbor no fright,
    Your family is waiting and I’ll be all right.”
    “But isn’t there something I can do, at the least,
    “Give you money,” I asked, “or prepare you a feast?
    It seems all too little for all that you’ve done,
    For being away from your wife and your son.”

    Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret,
    “Just tell us you love us, and never forget.
    To fight for our rights back at home while we’re gone,
    To stand your own watch, no matter how long.
    For when we come home, either standing or dead,
    To know you remember we fought and we bled.
    Is payment enough, and with that we will trust,
    That we mattered to you as you mattered to us.”

  47. The system didn’t fail, Bradley Manning failed.

    Spoken like a loyal bureaucrat.

    Loyal? Sure, whatever…

    “Loyal bureaucrat” wasn’t meant as a compliment. Loyalty to the bureaucracy isn’t the same thing as loyalty to America.

    Not even close.

    Hey ignoramus, the sarcastic response belied that it wasn’t taken as a compliment.

    Here’s some irony, the asshole who constantly tells us to trust the Dems in power and the Administration is now bemoaning the very same bureaucracy. And who is he tagging with this meme? One of those who has been most ardent and critical of the Federal Government.

    You are such a tool…

  48. Gorilla, the poem was really cool and the message worthwhile.

    I’ll be blogging over the weekend about some local heroes who are getting screwed royally. Should be interesting to see what response I get.

  49. Did you get stuck in that rabbit hole?

    Now take the blue pill.

    September 21, 1997, 6 years in advance of the “new Pearl Harbor” event, you could have watched The Simpsons for your prophetic insight into the future.

    These are just two examples of advance warnings. Or coincidences, right?

  50. Hope this answers your question.

    Yes it does … and what it tells me is you’re smarter than the average bear. The other thing I think you’re saying is that some folks at the lower levels could conceive of these things while the higher-ups for whatever reason might be more inclined to keep their head in the sand.

  51. Poolman my friend, are you also hearing Paul is dead when when you play Beatles songs backwards? I’m just sitting here hoping like heck that the Simpsons video was your being humorous.

  52. I must admit though, the Lone Gunmen pilot (a spinoff of the X Files I believe) was pretty damn spooky.

    I’m with Rabbit on this one, if I REALLY believed 9/11 was an inside job, I couldn’t sit still. I’d talk to anyone and everyone and I’d go to any length to seek justice. How could anyone abide living under a government capable of killing 3000 of its own people to manufacture a war against Iraq?

    Putting aside any sense of it being preposterous, it is also unfathomable. Do you know the depths of evil that the truther theories imply?

    I’ll tell you, the birthers piss me off but all they’re doing is talking smack about a man. Truthers are talking serious smack about a 234 year old institution. I can’t jump on board that train anymore than I can jump on the birther train.

  53. You’re probably just joking around with me. If you are, let me know.

    I’ll take the bait anyways. No, I do not think America gave an advanced warning of 9/11 in a 1997 episode of the Simpsons.

    Regrettably, it is from this point on that I ignore you. Any and all posts you write will be skipped. I’m hoping others, no matter their political persuasion, follow suit. Discourse with you is actually irresponsible as it eggs on your mental illness.

    Have fun in your world, try not to get killed by the men in the black helicopters.

    Hucking, please don’t lay any Michel Foucault on me. Poolman really is fucking nuts!

  54. Yeah, Rutherford. It is quite comical when you sit back and watch from a distance. I hope you enjoyed the first clip, too. I have a good buddy in Germany that sees us a whole lot differently than we see ourselves. Of course he isn’t watching our MSM. It’s quite like an ant farm. I had one of those when I was a kid. Interesting to watch and mess with.

  55. It’s quite like an ant farm. I had one of those when I was a kid. Interesting to watch and mess with.” – The Shallow End

    Being a leftist, I’m not surprised…

  56. Well this is indeed a complex manner in which the worm has turned.

    Assuming Poolman truly sees evidence of 9/11 conspiracies in a cartoon and a TV-thriller, no I don’t agree with him.

    BUT

    The black helicopter remark ignores the gang that Rabbit sympathizes with … namely the militias and gun nuts who swear the Fed is coming after their guns, ready to take their country away from them. Now that is equal black helicopter lunacy.

    This is what is truly interesting. When the government is managed by Democrats, Republicans get all black helicopterish on their ass … no trust at all. And when the government is run by Republicans, Democrats go down the same route and don’t trust government.

    It kinda makes you wonder how our democracy has lasted as long as it has.

  57. ok….I need to give Obama some slack. I already broke my promise and read poolman’s post. It’s like watching a train wreck. Mental illness is creepy. I hope you get some help.

  58. Rutherford, we don’t have to have the conversation about mentally ill people being from the right and from the left. I won’t use poolman against you. He’s a sick man. The question is, is he a dangerous one?

  59. It kinda makes you wonder how our democracy has lasted as long as it has.

    Actually, I have an answer to that, or I should say, Jon Stewart has an answer for that and it was what The Rally to Restore Sanity was all about.

    The reason the country survives is that 95% of it is composed of people too damn busy to engage in the political foolishness that masquerades as government. Most folks really aren’t liberals or conservatives. They’re hard-hats, and teachers, and miners, and fire fighters and doctors who come home from a hard day’s work, pop open a beer and watch CSI: Miami. They’re just trying to make it day to day.

    The libs and conservatives are the jokers in DC and the other jokers like us who follow them and debate about them. That is really not America.

  60. “The black helicopter remark ignores the gang that Rabbit sympathizes with … “Rutherford

    I just re-read your comment. Full of cheap shots today, aren’t you? I sympathize with militias? What does that even mean?

    Do I care about constitutional rights? I’m an off and on again hunter who used to live in a couple bad neighborhoods. So I own guns. And that Constitutional Right is important to me.

    That makes me an equal to your insane buddy you’ve been sucking off for the last couple weeks?

  61. Well DR ok, maybe calling you a militia sympathizer is a cheap shot. But you have to admit you’ve championed the Tea Party and their “take our country back” rhetoric. And anyone truly divorced from a black helicopter thought process knows damn well their country didn’t go anywhere in the first place.

    It comes down to a deep mistrust of the Fed. The difference between some conservatives and Poolman is just a matter of degree.

  62. Gorilla, loved the No Nativity scenes video. The Achmed I saw on the last thread. Just so-so.

    Aside from terrorizing ants as a kid, I also used to play army. I guess all the kids did. We had all the little plastic soldiers and would play with them in the dirt, making bunkers and rivers and roads. We even mutilated some and put red nail polish on them for blood. After setting them up we would end up throwing bombs (rocks) at the Germans. Americans were always the winners. We were the good guys. It’s part of our culture in America. We grew up playing war. It’s in our blood. We’re good at it. What a legacy,eh? First the Nazis, then the communists, now the Islamists. I wonder who’s next?

  63. Seriously, I think your being an insipid little drool fuck on purpose.

    Rabbit, you don’t think you’re being just a little too lenient on the folks who lied to Tillman’s wife? I haven’t heard you yet say “that was really f*cked up.”

    By the way, on an interesting side note that I don’t think is affecting the opinion of anyone here, but it is an interesting side note nonetheless. — Tillman was an atheist.

  64. Tillman was a devout atheist, if ever there was one. His family got pretty worked up when talk fo God was evoked at his funeral.

  65. “The difference between some conservatives and Poolman is just a matter of degree.”-Rutherford

    Your not at your best tonight, R. Oh well….

    I don’t hold it against you that you’ve been high fiving him for the last two weeks. The guy is for health care, after all….and likes to hate on America.

    You are acting strange tonight Rutherford. I can tell your not in a good mood.

    Your friendly fire rant was nothing more then provocative ignorance. Turning your ex-buddy Foolman into the proverbial hot potato is a sign of insecurity. Two days ago you were speaking of his brilliance, now the conversation revolves an insult in which I am much more like Foolman then you are.

    Neither of us are the poolman. Lets just leave it at that.

  66. Yeah Poolman, that is how I found out Tillman was an atheist because his brother lost it at the funeral basically thanking everyone for their kind words but emphasizing that Tillman didn’t believe a word of it while he was alive and now “he’s f*cking dead, that ‘s all, he’s just f*cking dead”.

    Man that family has gone through some serious hell.

  67. “Rabbit, you don’t think you’re being just a little too lenient on the folks who lied to Tillman’s wife?” Rutherford

    That was beyond fucked up. Disgusting. Dude, the military can be dirty. They are made up of humans, you know. Trust me, I’ve experienced it first hand. One day I will tell you about it. It’s a miracle I got an honorable discharge.

  68. You are acting strange tonight Rutherford. I can tell your not in a good mood.

    Actually I am in a pretty good mood but I’m dead tired … burning the candle at both ends.

    You and BiW befuddle me. I really didn’t consider what I said about friendly fire a rant. Just because it is a common side effect of war means I should just brush it off my shoulders? No biggie?

    Like I said before Rabbit, I’m still waiting for you to tell me that you wouldn’t be spitting bullets if the military, with knowledge at high levels, lied to you about how your brother or father died in combat. The minute you take the focus off “my rant” and just grant me how f*cked up that is, I’ll say fine.

  69. Really, no one should be surprised by this. Mike Moore is one of the most dishonest propaganda artists in the world, and the left is either too stupid to see through it or too dishonest to confront it.

    WikiLeaks: Cuba banned Sicko for depicting ‘mythical’ healthcare system

    A WikiLeaks cable reveals that when Michael Moore’s film was shown to Cuban doctors, they were ‘disturbed at the blatant misrepresentation of healthcare in Cuba’. Photograph: Max Whittaker/Reuters

    Cuba banned Michael Moore’s 2007 documentary, Sicko, because it painted such a “mythically” favourable picture of Cuba’s healthcare system that the authorities feared it could lead to a “popular backlash”, according to US diplomats in Havana.

    The revelation, contained in a confidential US embassy cable released by WikiLeaks , is surprising, given that the film attempted to discredit the US healthcare system by highlighting what it claimed was the excellence of the Cuban system.

    But the memo reveals that when the film was shown to a group of Cuban doctors, some became so “disturbed at the blatant misrepresentation of healthcare in Cuba that they left the room”.

    Castro’s government apparently went on to ban the film because, the leaked cable claims, it “knows the film is a myth and does not want to risk a popular backlash by showing to Cubans facilities that are clearly not available to the vast majority of them.”

    Sicko investigated healthcare in the US by comparing the for-profit, non-universal US system with the non-profit universal health care systems of other countries, including Cuba, France and the UK.

    It was nominated for an Oscar for best documentary feature but was also castigated for being naive and tendentious.

    The cable comes from the United States Interests Section in Havana (USINT) – staffed by US foreign service personnel and local staff employed by the department of state, the unit is formally a section of the Embassy of Switzerland, although it operates independently of the Swiss in virtually all but protocol respects.

    The secret 2008 cable is based on reports from the USINT’s foreign service health practitioner (FSHP) of her conversations with local people, unauthorised visits to Cuban hospitals, and experience of helping USINT American and Cuban personnel access healthcare.

    The cable describes a visit made by the FSHP to the Hermanos Ameijeiras hospital in October 2007. Built in 1982, the newly renovated hospital was used in Michael Moore’s film as evidence of the high-quality of healthcare available to all Cubans.

    But according to the FSHP, the only way a Cuban can get access to the hospital is through a bribe or contacts inside the hospital administration. “Cubans are reportedly very resentful that the best hospital in Havana is ‘off-limits’ to them,” the memo reveals.

    According to the FSHP, a more “accurate” view of the healthcare experience of Cubans can be seen at the Calixto Garcia Hospital. “FSHP believes that if Michael Moore really wanted the ‘same care as local Cubans’, this is where he should have gone,” the cable states.

    A 2007 visit by the FSHP to this “dilapidated” hospital, built in the 1800s, was “reminiscent of a scene from some of the poorest countries in the world,” the cable adds.

    The memo points out that even the Cuban ruling elite leave Cuba when they need medical care. Fidel Castro, for example, brought in a Spanish doctor during his health crisis in 2006. The vice-minister of health, Abelardo Ramirez, went to France for gastric cancer surgery. The neurosurgeon whoheads CIMEQ [Centro de Investigaciones Médico-Quirúrgicas] hospital – widely regarded as one of the best in Cuba – came to England for eye surgery, returning periodically for checkups.

    “After living in Cuba for two and a half years, treating numerous Cuban employees at USINT, and interacting with many other Cubans, the FSHP believes … preventive medicine in Cuba is a by-gone ideal, rather than the standard practice of care,” the memo concludes.

  70. Gorilla, #69 was an instant classic! That abbreviated version was great. There is so much truth to that simple song. These adversaries of mine are completely mad.

    So far in 24 hours, I have debated with Islamic apologists, the same Islamists shouting Allahu Akbar while killing 3,000 Americans citizens; finding clues to conspiracy in Simpson cartoons and accusing a governed by gossip of keeping the greatest conspiracy ever a complete secret; a suggested author as “religious literature” that pens for the NYT, and Graychin has been deemed to be the sanest one – the same man that believes the post a model for health care. It goes on and on…

    No matter how nasty I have been declared, no matter how lazy, mouthy, odious, and misogynist, I know one thing for sure about myself.

    I’m on the right side.

  71. Man that family has gone through some serious hell.

    In liberal and atheist’s need to deify Pat Tillman and his family as victim, I think it worth remembering that their hell is no greater loss than any other mom and dad, brother and sister, wife or children who have lost a soldier. Nor as Pat Tillman any braver than others who have died.

    I’m not minimizing his death or his service. Just stating the facts.

    Pat Tillman was also an odd duck who liked to climb the light pole at the football stadium where ASU played to contemplate life. It’s if he either had a death wish, or thought himself unbreakable.

  72. “The documents show that the threat from Iran is not an illusion…”

    I will admit I am still very blurry-eyed this morning, but I did not see where the article makes even the slightest mention as to what exactly that threat was.

    Did I miss it? (no sarcasm intended)

  73. Well, well. First, Rutherford, excellent post, uh, whatever it was about 🙂 When I first read it, I thought, surely no one will dispute this? What was I thinking? I’m about to embark on reading “Daemon” by Daniel Suarez, speaking of your original topic. I might not have heard of it, but he’s recently made the rounds of the NPR talk shows to promote the sequel, “Freedom”.
    For the record, I am anti-WikiLeaks. I would say, Who died and made him the arbiter of information? Perhaps more appropriately, who elected him? He puts info out there with no filter. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that he isn’t the real problem. He’s the face of an army of little nerds with zero judgement, who are most happy to say “Look Ma! I can do this!”
    Regardless of your level of trust of government, surely reasonable people can agree that there is a level of secrecy needed in certain cases. I could name tons of cases,but the first that comes to mind is the timing and target of D-Day.

  74. Regardless of your level of trust of government, surely reasonable people can agree that there is a level of secrecy needed in certain cases.</blockquote<

    Agreed, national security locations deemed critical and diplomat conversations about dispute, being only two of the items released by Wiki.

  75. Okay, we got smart folks here, some of you are even lawyers. You say I’m the wacko, but this is the story you defend…

    The Players:

    19 USAF trained pilots hijackers/terrorists/ supposed Muslims.
    Armed with box-cutters.

    Plus…

    A handful of others stateside that assisted them.
    1 Mastermind Saudi Arabian royal (OBL), a USA trained militant.
    Headquartered in Tora Bora underground in a bunker.
    Protected by a small terrorist army and network.

    Versus

    The best Intelligence in the world, Israel’s and ours.
    The best Air Force and military in the world.
    NASA and other sky spy stuff.
    The Pentagon.
    NORAD.
    FAA.

    The Event, a surprise attack:

    4 passenger planes hijacked from 3 airports on the East coast
    The flights last between 25 and 90 minutes.
    2 crash into the twin towers in NYC.
    1 crashes into the Pentagon.
    1 crashes into a field in PA.

    Meanwhile, no intercepts and we fumble the ball for 90 minutes.

    Damage sustained, day 1:

    3 steel and concrete skyscrapers are completely pulverized in NYC.
    Other buildings also sustain some damage.
    A big hole in one side of the Pentagon.
    A big hole in a PA field.
    + – 3000 lives lost

    Evidence:

    1 video of first impact, several of 2nd.
    1 video released from Pentagon impact.
    2 black boxes recovered, one still classified, one with only partial data recovered.
    2 intact passports from the terrorists found in PA.
    1 intact terrorist passport found in NYC.
    Some plane parts and a few small body parts.
    Terrorists are not found on passenger lists.
    OBL and underground bunker not found.
    DNA of terrorists not found.

    To date the FBI hasn’t charged OBL with this crime due to lack of proof.

    911 Commission find no US personnel at fault. They considered recommending criminal charges for false statements. Several commission members resign and several others publicly claim report is inaccurate, and that they were stymied in their efforts to obtain information and examine evidence, much of which was already destroyed or recycled.

    Has there ever been such a successful event in history?
    Have we ever had as many first time evers in one day?
    If not the gods, what?

  76. ” Who died and made him the arbiter of information? Perhaps more appropriately, who elected him?”-fakename

    That is exactly the type of response that scares me. Since when does information and truth need to be hand cuffed to some kind of legitimized authority? I call bull shit!

    While Rutherford, Gorilla and Tex all have valid beefs with Wiki Leaks, yours is nonsensical and even dangerous.

    And now a shot at the bow of my conservative brethren. We sure love Wikileaks. It is a treasure chest of info that validates many of our world views. And we sure love drinking from Assange’s cup!

    This can sway the limp wrists to put their big boy pants on the next time they pipe off about geopolitcs or even make policy. You can thank Assange for that.

  77. And yet, Rabbit…my conclusion is the same. I don’t quite fathom why that scares you. There is something inherently wrong with legitimized authority? I’m seeing a lot of support for it here, specifically the military. You don’t get to have it both ways.
    And Poolman..USAF trained? What I remember is that most of them were trained in tiny airports in Florida. And does anyone remember the FBI agent in…Minnesota (?) who became suspicious when one of them asked if he could be trained to fly a jet?

  78. “There is something inherently wrong with legitimized authority?”-fakename

    Look, America has every right to safe guard secrets. They need to get off there butt and start safeguarding.

    I haven’t made my mind up completely about Assange, to be honest. The Private should be tried and, if found guilty, shot.

    But when people start making statements that truth must automatically be tied to approval by an authority, we’re in deep shit.

    The way I see it, we are better off because of Assange, despite the collateral damage.

  79. “But when people start making statements that truth must automatically be tied to approval by an authority, we’re in deep shit.”
    I did not make that statement, and I agree with you.
    Having now been released from jail (and once again, more or less in hiding) Assange believes the U.S.is preparing to indict him. I believe that’s probably true, and I would hope so. As an Australian national, he can’t be charged with treason, but his minions can be.

  80. I would add that lately, people who have actually been convicted of treason have not been hung nor shot. I’m perfectly okay with this. Living life in hell in prison is more fitting, in my view. Speaking of probably starting another off-topic topic about the death penalty..

  81. Terrorists are not found on passenger lists.

    What? We knew exactly who the 19 were within hours. We traced their car backs within 24 hours, their story within 48 hours.

    Can you simply admit is was a beautifully executed (horrific to us) terrorist attack, that took advantage of our lackadaisical attitudes at security, including no reporting of pilots taking lessons not worried about landing months before?

    We were careless and we got burned.

    Clinton didn’t pursue the thugs after the first attack in ’93, Sandy Burglar called off executing Bin Laden three times before 2000 when he was in the cross hairs, we made a bad call allowing a cease fire at Tora Bora when Bin Laden was beat.

    Yeah, there’s been a hundred screw ups. But a conspiracy planned by our own government? The same government that can’t write a legible tax code and is run by gossip? Are you kidding? Who are you? Michael Moore by another name?

  82. And Poolman..USAF trained? What I remember is that most of them were trained in tiny airports in Florida.

    Sorry, I was going by memory. You are somewhat correct. Not all were trained at military facilities, and not AF. 4 were trained at the Pensacola Naval Air Station. 1 was trained in Scottsdale, AZ and 1 in Sierra Academy of Aeronautics in Oakland, CA.

  83. I would add that lately, people who have actually been convicted of treason have not been hung nor shot.

    Treason won’t be the charge – espionage much more likely because treason is a far more difficult charge to prove.

    I would prefer the firing squad for Manning immediately if proven guilty, because I find it much more of a deterrent for some idiot looking to make a name. Manning isn’t worth a meal – hardly worth four bullets and a blank.

    If we can’t shoot Manning, I would vote they work him to death in the heat, hard labor breaking rocks, chained to the ground. If he won’t cooperate, do what is necessary to break him.

  84. We knew exactly who the 19 were within hours. We traced their car backs within 24 hours, their story within 48 hours.

    Exactly. Even the blame was placed on OBL and Al Qaeda the very day of the attacks. Actually 33 minutes after the second tower collapses, OBL is blamed.

    http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/92.html

    But we still have no hijackers on a flight list or evidence good enough for the FBI to make a case.

  85. Tora Bora. There was a fascinating interview on 60 Minutes with the commander (? not sure I’m using the correct term) of a unit which had the opportunity to cut off Bin Laden’s escape to Pakistan, and he was prevented from doing so. That was the tipping point. And who was President then? I get so angry about this. No one ever needs to suggest to me that President Obama is mismanaging the war. It so reminds me of my ex-husband’s experience in Vietnam. Today you take hill X. Tomorrow you are prohibited from defending it. Watch that same hill where some of your firends died be reoccupied. It’s insanity.

  86. We are In WWIII… it is a financial WAR… Look around.. Ukraine is currently undergoing austerity plan.. Spain is undergoing a big change as well. Some of the United States, have experience budget cuts.. lay offs.. The tax credit extensions were needed to keep the band aid on..

  87. ps.. there are dozens of sites which are similar to wikileaks.. people just have to put the subject in google.. and BAM.. you have intel..

  88. Here is why I never post links on comments. A blog is not a term paper. But you get people posting links to support their opinions, which is merely someone else’s opinion that agrees with theirs. There is an emotional component to every “decision”, and I just constantly see people trying to justfy their decisions by saying that someone else agrees with them. This is by no means directed at you Poolman, since I generally think we’re on the same side. I’m saying, if you want to post a link…let it be informational. Don’t show me something about somebody else who agrees with you—that’s like the prevailing disease here. Like your personal opinion isn’t good enough. Like you have to explain your entire life history and present circumstances to be taken seriously. If you don’t tell, somebody will make it up anyway…so what the hell lol.

  89. So, Shallow End is a Truther. Why is it I’m not all that surprised…

    Van Jones and the Kiddie Pool… YES WE CAN!!!

  90. Yeah, I’ve been labeled that. I wear it along with General Wesley Clark and over 200 Senior military, intelligence, and government officials. So I guess it’s a pretty big kiddie pool.

    So what label do you wear, Gorilla?

  91. A few thoughts. FN2, the other reason why posting links here can be a funny proposition is no one believes the sources. If I make statement X and back it up with a HuffPo article, I get laughed out of the room. Similarly, if one of my conservative friends here backs up his remark with a link from HotAir.com or The National Review, my response typically is “you’ve got to be kidding me”.

    The real value of links here is it saves you the trouble of reiterating an article you agree with. You can just post the link and say “what he said.”

    By the way, if you’re at all a non-link fan, be so glad you came aboard after the Elric phase of this blog, Elric flew a crop-duster over this blog every day raining down a torrent of links from such auspicious sites as WeaselZippers (which he usually misspelled). LOL

  92. While I cannot sign up for 9/11 being an inside job, the utter simplicity of the attack and its resulting devastation is mind-boggling.

    I don’t know the dude’s name, but there was a check-in guy at Logan who later said he looked in Mohammed Atta’s eyes and saw evil but he ignored his instincts. I feel so horrible for that dude. The rest of his life will be filled with “what if?” He’ll probably have to be in therapy for the rest of his life just to forgive himself for a mistake ANY of us could have made … heck you can’t even call it a mistake per se. Just not trusting your gut to go the extra mile with a suspicious character.

  93. Rabbit touches on a key problem in the Assange case. Where does espionage end and legit journalism begin?

    It is the job of the Fourth Estate to keep everyone honest. When their hands are tied because they are labeled traitors, then we are headed down the road of Iran, China and North Korea.

  94. The Players:

    19 USAF trained pilots hijackers/terrorists/ supposed Muslims.
    Armed with box-cutters.

    Plus…

    A handful of others stateside that assisted them.
    1 Mastermind Saudi Arabian royal (OBL), a USA trained militant.
    Headquartered in Tora Bora underground in a bunker.
    Protected by a small terrorist army and network.

    Versus

    The best Intelligence in the world, Israel’s and ours.
    The best Air Force and military in the world.
    NASA and other sky spy stuff.
    The Pentagon.
    NORAD.
    FAA.
    ” – Shallow End

    Do you read the stuff you link to? From your link:

    1996-August 2000: Ahmed Alghamdi and Other Hijackers Reportedly Connected to US Military Base

    After 9/11, there will be media accounts suggesting some of the 9/11 hijackers trained at US military bases (see September 15-17, 2001). According to these accounts, four of the hijackers trained at Pensacola Naval Air Station, a base that trains many foreign nationals. One neighbor will claim that Ahmed Alghamdi lived in Pensacola until about August 2000. This neighbor will claim that Alghamdi appeared to be part of a group of Arab men who often gathered at the Fountains apartment complex near the University of West Florida. She will recount, “People would come and knock on the doors. We might see three or four, and they were always men. It was always in the evening. The traffic in and out, although it was sporadic, was constant every evening. They would go and knock, and then it would be a little while and someone would look out the window to see who it was, like they were being very cautious. Not your normal coming to the door and opening it.” [New York Times, 9/15/2001] It is not known when Alghamdi is first seen in Pensacola. However, he uses the address of a housing facility for foreign military trainees located inside the base on drivers’ licenses issued in 1996 and 1998. Saeed Alghamdi and Ahmed Alnami also list the same address as Ahmed Alghamdi on their drivers license and car registrations between 1996 and 1998. Other records connect Hamza Alghamdi to that same address. However, the Pensacola News Journal reports that “The news articles caution that there are slight discrepancies between the FBI list of suspected hijackers and the military training records, either in the spellings of their names or in their birth dates. They also raise the possibility that the hijackers stole the identities of military trainees.” [Washington Post, 9/16/2001; Pensacola News Journal, 9/17/2001] It is unclear if these people were the 9/11 hijackers or just others with similar names. The US military has never definitively denied that they were the hijackers, and the media lost interest in the story a couple of weeks after 9/11.

    It is called transliteration. El-Gamal and al-Gamal mean EXACTLY the same thing, but Egyptians use el and the rest of the GCC uses al. Koran, Quran? Kandahar, Qandahar? Sheikh, Shaek, Shaiq, etc, etc, etc…

    Secondly, do you have ANY idea what it takes for a foreign military officer to get ANY training on US facilities, let alone flight training? And yes, foreign military officers- the US military isn’t going to train civilians.

    The absurdity of this on its face is off the charts.

    UBL (another example of transliteration- Osama, Usama…) WAS NOT EVER trained by the US government. Period. End of story. Again, someone pontificating on something they apparently no nothing about.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Yusuf_Azzam
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan#Foreign_involvement_and_aid_to_the_mujahideen

    The United States did not “create” Osama bin Laden

    The United States did not “create” Osama bin Laden or al Qaida. The United States supported the Afghans fighting for their country’s freedom in the 1980s — as did other countries, including Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China, Egypt, and the UK — but the United States did not support the “Afghan Arabs,” the Arabs and other Muslims who came to fight in Afghanistan for broader goals. CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen notes that the “Afghan Arabs functioned independently and had their own sources of funding”:

    While the charges that the CIA was responsible for the rise of the Afghan Arabs might make good copy, they don’t make good history. The truth is more complicated, tinged with varying shades of gray. The United States wanted to be able to deny that the CIA was funding the Afghan war, so its support was funneled through Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence agency (ISI). ISI in turn made the decisions about which Afghan factions to arm and train, tending to favor the most Islamist and pro-Pakistan. The Afghan Arabs generally fought alongside those factions, which is how the charge arose that they were creatures of the CIA.

    Former CIA official Milt Bearden, who ran the Agency’s Afghan operation in the late 1980s, says: “The CIA did not recruit Arabs,” as there was no need to do so. There were hundreds of thousands of Afghans all too willing to fight, and the Arabs who did come for jihad were “very disruptive . . . the Afghans thought they were a pain in the ass.” I have heard similar sentiments from Afghans who appreciated the money that flowed from the Gulf but did not appreciate the Arabs’ holier-than-thou attempts to convert them to their ultra-purist version of Islam. [Freelance cameraman] Peter Jouvenal recalls: “There was no love lost between the Afghans and the Arabs. One Afghan told me, ‘Whenever we had a problem with one of them we just shot them. They thought they were kings.’”

    The best Intelligence in the world, Israel’s and ours.

    Who also said Saddam Hussein was producing WMD… Besides, you’re not talking about the Gorelick memo which SPECIFICALLY forbid the US Intelligence services and law enforcement from talking to each other.

    The best Air Force and military in the world.

    What does this have to do with 9/11?

    NASA and other sky spy stuff.

    Really, now you’re just showing how stupid you are.

    This comment demonstrates, beyond anything else you’ve ever posted, how much of a mental midget you really and truly are…

  95. Gorilla,

    You guys are right. Like Tex said, the info was stolen. And it was classified.

    However, why shouldn’t Fox News et al be prosecuted as well? I know its common sense…..the cat was out of the bag already. But, from a legal stand point, I don’t know how the media gets away with it.

    What ever the case, I have enjoyed the hell out the leak. I think more good will come then bad, but….I’m talking out of my ass on this one….probably because I think its so damn funny that Sicko was banned in Cuba.

  96. Gorilla. Google Mujahideen. Even Wikipedia shows the connection. That’s where OBL started out. They are the original Al Qaeda. We’ve been funding them since we used them in the cold war against the Soviets. Your Wikipedia quote above even makes the claim how they were funded by the US indirectly through Pakistan. Saudi Arabia has also been linked to funding them on our bequest.

    Google Mujahadeen – Zbiegniew Brzezinski
    or Osama bin Ladin – CIA.

    There are plenty of sources there including a video of ZB pep talking the fighters, choose your own.

    Additionally Clinton let OBL off the hook 4 times by intentionally alerting him usually through Pakistan when the US planned an attack.

    I figured you of all people would know a lot of this shit.

    Who also said Saddam Hussein was producing WMD

    The WMD was a bogus excuse anyway. That’s the one we wanted to stick. Google Dr. David Kelly if you want more on that lie.

    I guess you didn’t go to my link on one of the last threads that showed former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Hugh Shelton telling Jon Stewart that a Clinton cabinet member proposed letting Saddam kill an American pilot as a pretext for war in Iraq. We were itching for that war way before 911.

  97. Additionally Clinton let OBL off the hook 4 times by intentionally alerting him usually through Pakistan when the US planned an attack. ” – Puddle

    Prove it. Clinton was incompetent, yes, but he didn’t let bin Laden intentionally go so he could attack the US several years later.

    You are the one completely missing the point. US aid and support was provided through Pakistan, almost exclusively. This was done for several reasons: 1) because the Pakistanis were far more knowledgable about who the mujahideen were; 2) the Pakistanis wanted absolute control of of the situation since it was on their border and they were going to have to live with the problem; 3) engagement with ARABS was very limited as they were seen as unreliable, chaotic and uncommitted. You might think it splitting hairs, but its not. It is an incredibly important fact that you clearly don’t appreciate, most likely because you don’t understand the culture, the environment and the conflict itself.

    CIA’s Beardman confirmed, in this regard, that Osama bin Laden was not aware of the role he was playing on behalf of Washington. In the words of bin Laden (quoted by Beardman): “neither I, nor my brothers saw evidence of American help“. 7

    Motivated by nationalism and religious fervor, the Islamic warriors were unaware that they were fighting the Soviet Army on behalf of Uncle Sam. While there were contacts at the upper levels of the intelligence hierarchy, Islamic rebel leaders in theatre had no contacts with Washington or the CIA.

    With CIA backing and the funneling of massive amounts of US military aid, the Pakistani ISI had developed into a “parallel structure wielding enormous power over all aspects of government”. 8 The ISI had a staff composed of military and intelligence officers, bureaucrats, undercover agents and informers, estimated at 150,000. 9

    Meanwhile, CIA operations had also reinforced the Pakistani military regime led by General Zia Ul Haq:

    ‘Relations between the CIA and the ISI [Pakistan’s military intelligence] had grown increasingly warm following [General] Zia’s ouster of Bhutto and the advent of the military regime,’… During most of the Afghan war, Pakistan was more aggressively anti-Soviet than even the United States. Soon after the Soviet military invaded Afghanistan in 1980, Zia [ul Haq] sent his ISI chief to destabilize the Soviet Central Asian states. The CIA only agreed to this plan in October 1984…. `the CIA was more cautious than the Pakistanis.’ Both Pakistan and the United States took the line of deception on Afghanistan with a public posture of negotiating a settlement while privately agreeing that military escalation was the best course.10

    No, WMD was not an excuse. There is clearly no point talking to you because you’ll believe whatever supports your preconceived notions. Mike Moore feeds off of idiots like you…

  98. Gorilla…you are debating somebody who believes that we were forewarned by Bart Simpson of an American conspiracy to attack the twin towers.

    You are either legitimizing a quack.

  99. you are debating somebody who believes that we were forewarned by Bart Simpson of an American conspiracy to attack the twin towers.

    The Simpsons uses symbolism to foretell events planned by the illuminati. Not my conclusion, but the shows are full of the stuff. It is like black magic shit. Once you’re aware to look for it, it is all over shows like that. I don’t know that much about it, though I have come across some info. It has to do with free masons and their symbolism, numerology, and kabala. Stuff like the symbols on our money and all over DC buildings and city layout, etc. Many Catholic symbols and the involvement of the Vatican along with anything “Columbia” . It’s all ancient stuff. The all-seeing eye, pentagrams, and the like.

    If you start to go down that rabbit hole, it gets real deep real fast. I try to avoid it. David Icke and others have extensive stuff regarding it. I posted it as merely a “WTF” moment.

    But back to OBL’s connection with us, here known as…


    OSAMAGATE

  100. I’m starting to think that Poolman is just playing us….

    I would think that too, except I know where he came from – Fat Grannies.

    They’re all bat shit crazy there, with the old hosts a couple of jackboot Molly Ivins wannabees – just as vile; just as ugly; about as clever; will be just as dead soon.

  101. R–re: comment 117: Yes 🙂 I hate that I missed the Elric era (Not!) and loved the crop dusting analogy. But back for a moment to your original post, imagine that. While it is not quite on point…some years back, maybe 5, Tallahassee suddenly went mostly dark in the middle of the afternoon. When that happened, Tallahassee was permitted to purchase electricity from elsewhere (and there are restrictions on where it can do that and what the source is), it got power from Jacksonville (which has a nuclear plant), thereby causing a brownout there. The problem was ultimately determined to be the failure of a $100 computer cable. It wasn’t sabotage, but the moral of the story is that low-tech disruption works as well as hacking.

  102. “neither I, nor my brothers saw evidence of American help”

    I wonder if Poolman is going to respond to this quote.

    Or, should I say…I wonder if the Illuminati, led by billionaire powerhouse Montgomery Burnes, will allow Poolman to respond to that quote.

  103. In the words of SnagglePuss, heavens to murgatroid!!! I don’t know what to make of Poolman’s conspiracy stuff. I don’t know whether it’s a put-on or it’s the real deal.

    Poolman has me triangulated in one of the weirdest ways I’ve ever encountered on this blog.

    On the one hand, I find some of the conspiracy stuff totally off the hook.

    On the other hand, I like most of what I’ve read of your politics.

    On the third hand ( 🙂 ), your religious beliefs, while I respect your right to have them, leave me utterly befuddled.

    Dag, and I thought Rabbit was one complex mofo. Poolman may have topped the Rabbit on being hard to pin down. 🙂

  104. I wanted to make a comment about #88. I do love George Carlin when he goes on these rants but I am surprised that none of those present haven’t leveled the same charge of hypocrisy against Carlin that you level against Lennon.

    Think about it. Carlin talks about how the man is screwing us up the ass and he counts himself among us. But who was he fooling? Carlin was no doubt a millionaire. He was quite comfy in his old age and I’ve always been a bit surprised that with his money he couldn’t buy better medical care. After all, if I’m not mistaken he walked into the hospital complaining of chest pain and died waiting for treatment.

    In any case, are all the folks here, eager to call liberals hypocrites, giving Carlin a pass for being an old codger? I’m just curious.

  105. Well I’ve long been saying that we have a history of making friends under “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” foreign policy strategy. We liked Saddam Hussein while we hated Iran and we liked OBL and his boys while we hated Russia.

  106. I don’t know. I kind of like Poolman’s mindset. Illuminati, Skull and Bones, the History Channel. 🙂 Makes a heck of a lot more sense than electing Obama for President. I think a couple of these Obama sycophants have been taking their first steps to enlightenment lately.

    I mean, is Poolman’s “theories” any crazier than Obama and liberal’s economic theories?

    The Scrooge McDuck Theory of Economics? Evil rich people that swim in their gold and spend nothing?

  107. You know…that is friggen irritating….

    We are supposed to rush our mouses to all of these bullshit links Poolman posts. Watching movie after movie made by and researched by god-knows-who…hearing crap for days if we refuse…so that he can show us what some secondary sources have to say about this issue.

    Meanwhile, someone posts a direct quote from a primary source…no, scratch that…. THE primary source…that completely refutes Poolman and his youtube support, and he has absolutely nothing to say except “good night.”

  108. Yeah I will take a look.

    In the meantime, let us contemplate why it is that such a powerful organization as the Illuminati permits the creators of The Simpsons to expose their secrets so far in advance. Why does it allow Fox, who we all know is part of the right-wing conspiracy anyway, to air those secrets?

    I mean…if Poolman were president in 2001, all of that planning and effort would have been for nothing.

    I just don’t understand why they would allow Bart Assange to blab their secrets to the world via the most successful prime-time series in the history of television.

    Poolman, you got anything for that that doesn’t include a video?

  109. Thanks.

    That is not UBL. Maybe no one noticed, but the dude was wearing a Pakistani Army uniform- UBL NEVER wore a uniform. The face isn’t even the same.

    Brzezinski visited Pakistan in the spring of 1981, while bin Laden was finishing up at King Abdul-Aziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

    Boys and girls, there is an important lesson here- not everything on the internet is true. I know, you’re all shocked, but apparently Puddles has taken it in to the hilt.

    Puddles, you need counseling.

  110. Hmmmmmmm, claiming a connection between UBL and Brzezinski?

    How about the illuminati?

    9/11 inside job angle?

    Really, where are the distortions… by us at least…

  111. Fake, we don’t need a victim; we need an enemy. You fit the victim bill and Graychin fills the enemy.

    I get the distinct impression Poolman, for as crazy as his posts. links and theories, is not the reprehensible and self-absorbed lout we more Conservative types have become accustomed to doing battle with here at R.L. Neither does Poolman appear to be a sanctimonious phony, pompous ass, or perpetual victim.

    You do him a disservice… ~ sociopath 😉

  112. Okay. I can see we had a lot of fun here, much at my expense, so let’s have some more. For admitted conservatives, here’s Ron Paul’s site with a recent interview where Hillary admits we created Al Qaeda.

    If you are an ABC fan, here’s the transcript where Hillary states:

    “We trained them, we equipped them, we funded them, including somebody named Osama Bin Laden.”

    Now if you want a bigger picture, here’s a video showing Brezinski’s role establishing the fact that we trained and funded them.

    Meanwhile, someone posts a direct quote from a primary source…no, scratch that…. THE primary source…that completely refutes Poolman…

    Now Huck, how is that a primary source? The primary source would be OBL himself. Beardman is quoted. That is a secondary source. He is one of the ones that says we (CIA) had no involvement in funding Al Qaeda. Hillary just contradicted that. Who you gonna believe? Which one is trying to make us look better?

  113. How would Hillary know? When this was going down, so was she… as a jaded house wife.

    Of course you don’t respond to any of those comments, just brush them off like they mean nothing, when they demonstrate how much of a fraud your theory is. And now you respond with… wait for it… wait for it… Hillary Clinton. Only in the fertile petry dish of your mind is Hillary Clinton a source of ANY type.

    Seriously, you need to take your meds…

  114. Okay gorilla. If you think you know more about the under-the-table dealings than the current Secretary of State of the USA, then you are the one who needs the meds. I don’t know what your credentials are, and really at this point I don’t think it matters. Even Wikipedia shows both sides when you look up CIA OBL controversy. One is reality, one is spin. Whose payroll are you on?

  115. Asshole, YOU are claiming UBL met with Brzezinski in Pakistan, whne clearly the photo is of a Pakistani military officer and UBL was in Saudi Arabia at the time of Brzezinski’s visit.

    You are the one bringing up the illuminati.

    You are claiming that Hillary Clinton would have a better grasp on what was happening on US Foreign policy during the early 80’s in Afghanistan than a CIA guy who was FUCKING ACTUALLY DOING IT IN AFGHANISTAN at the time.

    You’re spinning, right down the commode, which is apparently the only “pool” you’re familiar with…

  116. If you are saying we were not funding bin laden or Al Qaeda, I say bullshit. Even if we were funding him through the Saudis, we were making sure he was armed and available. Now whether he knew we were funding him the whole time or not, I can’t say. He’s in uniform in the film. Maybe he ditched it early in his career. Most of the time he is in his other garb. But the paper trail has been uncovered from the Saudis to him. He was part of Operation Cyclone. He may have turned on us as Clinton is claiming. I can’t dispute that. The CIA knew his whereabouts though before and after 911. The taliban offered him up to us.

    The best sources say he died in December of 2001, either from kidney disease or was killed. Butto claimed he was murdered. That is all documented information. His obit was in the paper. Most Arabs who know of him say he’s dead. It’s been a charade. You’re either covering up for it, or your “need-to-know” level doesn’t go there.

    I sourced you high ranking people in the intelligence and military that believe the same. You either ignored it or discounted it. Why aren’t their statements valid?

    Here is a definite white man conservative site with sources.

    Web site link deleted by blog owner

    If you still can tell me I’m wrong AFTER going there and checking it out….

    well, I’ll pray for you, Gorilla.

  117. White man, Conservative site? I thought Stormfront was a white nationalist and supremacist neo-Nazi site? I have a lot of faults – being a Neo Nazi isn’t one of them.

    Is that what we’re going to use for sourcing now? 😯

    I just heard Rutherford’s stomach rumble.

  118. If you are saying we were not funding bin laden or Al Qaeda, I say bullshit. Even if we were funding him through the Saudis, we were making sure he was armed and available. Now whether he knew we were funding him the whole time or not, I can’t say. He’s in uniform in the film. Maybe he ditched it early in his career. Most of the time he is in his other garb. But the paper trail has been uncovered from the Saudis to him. He was part of Operation Cyclone. He may have turned on us as Clinton is claiming. I can’t dispute that. The CIA knew his whereabouts though before and after 911. The taliban offered him up to us. ” – Puddles

    First off, you clearly don’t understand who or what al-Qaeda is.

    Al-Qaeda was formed in 1988 by veterans of the anti-Soviet civil war in Afghanistan, with the purpose of exporting the victory worldwide.

    At its core was Azzam and his deputy, bin Laden, who may have differed how best to proceed. When Azzam was killed in 1989, bin Laden assumed full control of the organization.

    Though he was a Saudi, most of his senior leadership was Egyptian.

    Between 1991 and 1996, al-Qaeda was headquarted in Sudan, where it enjoyed friendly relations with the governing National Islamic Front. International pressure forced bin Laden to relocate back to Afghanistan in 1996, where it allied with the then-nascent Taliban.

    In late 2001, most of its training camps were destroyed, and the group became somewhat diffuse, with much of its leadership relocating either to Iran, the mountainous region along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, or to Pakistan’s cities.

    Many of those work in Pakistan’s cities were caught. The status of the leadership in Iran remains unclear.

    Al-Qaeda’s purpose is to spread jihad worldwide through a number of means, including funding and training Islamic and ethnic guerilla movements, issuing propaganda aimed at inspiring freelance jihadists to commit acts of terrorism, and organizating and conducting complex attacks on countries it sees opposing it.

    The organization is funded largely by charitable donations, some intended, and some diverted by symathizers from poorly managed Gulf charities. Before 9-11, the organization had an estimated annual budget of about $30 million.

    The U.S. State Department declared al-Qaeda a “foreign terrorist organization” in October 1999.

    AQ did not come into existence until the end of the conflict and its purpose was to take advantage of the fighters that were there. Azzam wanted to use the fighters as the national army of Afghanistan and solidify their gains in establishing an Islamic emerate. Bin Laden (likely through Aymen al-Zawahiri influence) differed with Azzam and wanted to take the fight to the Arab states like Egypt (which Zawahiri is from and who he had targeted to that point) to topple their apostate regimes. This conflict is what lead to Azzams death.

    We could call this the colossus of unintended consequences; we call it a monumental failure in recognizing second order effects; we could call it incredibly short sighted. However, WE CAN NOT call it SUPPORT TO AL QAEDA.

    As for the photo, bin Laden NEVER, EVER was in or impersonated a Pakistani military officer. Claims to the contrary without some LEGITIMATE proof are ludicrous. Period. That isn’t bin Laden.

    Furthermore, bin Laden WAS NOT a part of Operation Cyclone.

    The U.S. government has been criticized for allowing Pakistan to channel a disproportionate amount of its funding to controversial Afghan resistance leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar,[34] who Pakistani officials believed was “their man”.[35] Hekmatyar has been criticized for killing other mujahideen and attacking civilian populations, including shelling Kabul with American-supplied weapons, causing 2,000 casualties. Hekmatyar was said to be friendly with Osama bin Laden, founder of al-Qaeda, who was running an operation for assisting “Afghan Arab” volunteers fighting in Afghanistan, called Maktab al-Khadamat. Alarmed by his behavior, Pakistan leader General Zia warned Hekmatyar, “It was Pakistan that made him an Afghan leader and it is Pakistan who can equally destroy him if he continues to misbehave.”[36]

    In the late 1980s, Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto, concerned about the growing strength of the Islamist movement, told President George H. W. Bush, “You are creating a Frankenstein.”[37]

    The U.S. says that all of its funds went to native Afghan rebels and denies that any of its funds were used to supply Osama bin Laden or foreign Arab mujahideen. Nonetheless, U.S. support for the native Afghan mujahideen contributed to the radical Islamization of Afghanistan as well as the weakening and near-disintegration of the Afghan state, which ultimately led to the Taliban takeover of most of the country in 1996.

    Not.

    And no, the Taliban did not offer him up to us, WHICH is why we invaded Afghanistan in the first place. They offered to negotiate handing him over to us, pn condition that we stop bombing them. We were not going to negotiate with them- it was all or nothing.

    Sudan offered bin Laden, not the Taliban.

    The best sources say he died in December of 2001, either from kidney disease or was killed. Butto claimed he was murdered. That is all documented information. His obit was in the paper. Most Arabs who know of him say he’s dead. It’s been a charade. You’re either covering up for it, or your “need-to-know” level doesn’t go there. ” – Puddles

    I’m not going to reply to this and I’ll explain why in one second.

    I sourced you high ranking people in the intelligence and military that believe the same. You either ignored it or discounted it. Why aren’t their statements valid?” – Puddles

    Because I don’t believe they said it, and some freak website isn’t going to convince me, which brings me to why I would answer the earlier question…

    Here is a definite white man conservative site with sources.
    web link deleted by blog owner
    ” – Puddles

    A White Supremist website. You FUCKING expect me to watch a WHITE POWER website and believe ANYTHING you have to say. Fuck you, you racist fucking whack job. Black helicopters and all. Your other links go to whack job conspiracy nut sites too, which means you have ZERO credibility. You’re a fraud, a kook, a complete fucking idiot.

    If you still can tell me I’m wrong AFTER going there and checking it out….

    well, I’ll pray for you, Gorilla.” – Puddles

    Fuck you and your prayers. You’re a loser and if it was up to me, I’d ban you. But R is a better man than me, so he’ll likely not do it, but I’d encourage every soul that comes here to NEVER speak to you again.

    I won’t.

  119. John Stossel is absolutely destroying liberal ideas tonight on FAUX News.

    Cash for clunkers, ethanol, alpaca and golf cart subsidies, health care, professional sports subsidies, etc…

    I mean Stossel is absolutely destroying the myth of government efficiency.

    Sure am glad we’ve got Obamacare. Boondoggles live forever.

  120. Here is what I love about conspiracy nuts….

    “Even if we were funding him through the Saudis, we were making sure he was armed and available. Now whether he knew we were funding him the whole time or not, I can’t say. He’s in uniform in the film. Maybe he ditched it early in his career. Most of the time he is in his other garb. But the paper trail has been uncovered from the Saudis to him. He was part of Operation Cyclone. He may have turned on us as Clinton is claiming. I can’t dispute that. The CIA knew his whereabouts though before and after 911. The taliban offered him up to us.”

    “If” “Maybe” “I can’t say” “May have”

    Everything based on conjecture.

    “I sourced you high ranking people in the intelligence and military that believe the same. You either ignored it or discounted it. Why aren’t their statements valid?”

    We sourced you Osama bin Laden who said different. You either ignored it or discounted it Why isn’t his statement valid?

    If only we could convince Lisa Simpson to explain it to you in musical notes or some other form of communication that might penetrate through your tin foil hat.

  121. We sourced you Osama bin Laden who said different. You either ignored it or discounted it Why isn’t his statement valid?

    Are you saying Beardman is OBL?

  122. “I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam.”

    Now that, Huck, IS a primary source. And it isn’t a video. Whether he was lying when he said it, God only knows.

  123. While it is good news that the majority of the world’s Muslim population repudiates al-Qaeda, and vice versa, we in the West cannot take too much comfort. Pew also provides each polled country’s percentages of support for al-Qaeda: 34 percent of Jordanians, 49 percent of Nigerian Muslims, 3 percent of Lebanese, 20 percent of Egyptians, 23 percent of Indonesians, 18 percent of Pakistanis, and 4 percent of Turks. In real numbers, the total is staggering. A whopping 129,942,000 Muslims support al-Qaeda. That’s right, almost 130 million Muslims support al-Qaeda — and that from just the six countries Pew’s pollsters visited.

    As the Pew organization admits, pollsters couldn’t conduct their research in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) in Pakistan, where al-Qaeda and the Taliban rule. Undoubtedly, if the residents of the FATA were polled, the number of al-Qaeda supporters in Pakistan would rise significantly. One can only imagine how high this number would rise if Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, and Saudi Arabia were polled.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/130-million-strong-al-qaedas-deep-muslim-support/

  124. Regarding 159, Poolman I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were making a point that truthers don’t have to be liberals. I do think linking to a white supremacy web site was going too far to prove the point.

    Since a neo-Nazi web site is just one cut above kiddie-porn, I have used my editorial discretion to remove the link (both in your comment and in G’s response). Hopefully everyone you wanted to reach had a chance to visit before I got to it.

    I know I’ll now have Tex calling me a hypocrite for editing comments but I can live with that. Stormfront makes Elric’s WeaselZippers look like Ladies’ Home Journal.

    And with that I’m going to bed.

  125. I know I’ll now have Tex calling me a hypocrite for editing comments but I can live with that.

    😕

    Excuse me? I pretty much condemned that, didn’t I? I would have been surprised if you hadn’t. Didn’t you note my comment about your stomach?

  126. LOL No Tex I know you’re not getting behind neo-Nazi web sites BUT I know you also have a major problem with blog owners exercising discretion as to what comments stay and which one’s go (ala your big gripe with the Gray/Dog blog). So I anticipate when I take any measure to control content no matter how vile, that I will get some pushback from you.

  127. You won’t get pushback from me if you have limits about linking to a White Supremacist site. I don’t expect you to have zero limits. Shoot, even I was taken back. Bet you didn’t know that could happen, hey?

    Graychin thinks you weak for not being an editor. I think it demonstrates a truthfulness and confidence Graychin incapable of understanding, which is why most of us hold you in far higher regard and believe Graychin incredibly lame and untruthful.

    I perfectly expected you to delete one of mine previously, no matter how true the content. 😉

    I think General Chen tuned me in to all of these emoticons – he posted them once and I set them to memory. I’ve gotten to where I’m using them too much, but it’s easier than using a snark tag. Wish he’d come over here. He’s the only other lib besides you that has a good sense of humor and doesn’t take this too seriously.

    Not that you need a the tag, but some of these people from the left so gullible, they’ll believe about anything I write.

  128. Well I don’t expect 100 percent accuracy from Wikipedia, though I do refer to it often and generally regarding important matters I prefer to check several sources. I do believe even the worst and most extreme sources, either right or left, do contain some elements of truth most of the time. Here in AZ, white supremists have a pretty large footprint, even in government. I don’t agree with their ideology, but I don’t know any that would be considered “liberal” or leftist by any means.

    I apologize for offending by linking the source. The same information and video clips are available from other sites, too. So I will try not to offend with the sources I post, but likely I will still offend with the information I post.

    This is a clip that aired on Fox and here is the Moxnews capture of the Fox report. It is an interview with Lt. Colonel Anthony Shaffer and the CIA’s Michael Scheuer stating that the 9/11 report is a cover up from start to finish. Both provided documentation to the commission that was ignored.

    Here we have more experts that were directly involved in the events that are providing the same story. I really don’t care if you question MY credibility or character, or if the topic makes you go ape. This isn’t stuff that I’m making up. Facts will remain facts no matter who displays them. Truth will win out no matter how long it takes and regardless of how many try to discredit it.

  129. Well Poolman, whether or not truth will win out remains to be seen. JFK was killed 47 years ago and to this day the official explanation of a lone gunman, LH Oswald seems a bit odd when other evidence is considered. Perhaps we do know the truth of JFK’s murder? Perhaps Oswald acted alone? I doubt we will ever be sure and most sadly, the man never got to stand trial. To some Jack Ruby is a hero. To me, he is scum. Even if Oswald had told nothing but lies, we at least would have gotten to hear his side of the story.

    I know the others here don’t want me to encourage you in your tin foil hat stuff but I did want to note something. The 9/11 TV coverage is my generation’s Zapruder film. That tape has been examined over and over. I’m surprised Poolman that you haven’t brought up the theory that the Twin Towers collapse was really a controlled demolition. To the casual observer, it certainly looked that way.

    Now before everybody (except Poolman) goes batsh*t crazy, let me say for the record, I don’t believe it was a controlled demolition. I’ve read that the towers actually had a design flaw that made the center of each tower weaker than the perimeter such that the intense heat of the blaze caused the center to weaken and the towers to fall in upon themselves.

    I’m just remarking that I’m surprised the controlled demolition isn’t part of Pollman’s repertoire.

  130. Rutherford, there are experts that have done plenty of experimentation and I let those people speak for themselves. I have seen about every theory and idea from every angle and some are pretty far fetched. That is why I primarily just push for a real investigation rather than the faux one we got. Let the real experts figure it out.

    AFA the demolition angle, I think if you examine building seven and Silverstein’s “pull it” remark in addition to the news reporting it being demolished 20 minutes before it was, and while on film, as the building was visible in the background is just a priceless moment. I have so many links but I will refrain. This stuff is hard to swallow for the average American citizen.

  131. Building Seven? Nooooooo. Fakename is now covering her ears. I will say that it comes as a big surprise to me that anyone would think all or even most Truthers are Liberals. I can barely put the two words together in the same sentence. Of course, I don’t think they’re Conservatives, either.
    I take back that comment I made about distortions; it appears it was I who missed the point. As far back as Comment #50.

  132. On another note/topic, this is a fascinating book (warning: I’m about to post a link! But don’t anyone get freaked…it’s a book review from the New York Times). “The Bin Ladens”, by Steve Coll.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/books/01kaku.html
    I remembered it due to BiW’s quote about Al Queda surviving on donations, which is part due to the fact that the Bin Laden family stripped Osama of his own money.

  133. “Building Seven? Nooooooo. Fakename is now covering her ears.”-fakename

    Uh….the Bart Simpson video wasn’t enough?

  134. Rabbit…don’t go much to links, for reasons I’ve posted previously (nor do I generally post them myself, for the same reason.) If I were inclined, I would NEVER go to The Simpsons.

  135. A few months ago I read a Rolling Stone interview with one of Bin Laden’s sons. It was very interesting. The dude was clearly conflicted. Was originally going to follow in Daddy’s footsteps and then bailed. I don’t think they’ve spoken to each other since.

  136. Using the staged September 11, 2001 attacks as a pretext to invade Afghanistan, Washington is about to enter the eleventh year of its longest war in history. After Indochina, this war unequivocally designates Asia as the center of U.S. geopolitical strategy and the Pentagon’s main 21st century war front.

    I don’t think our founders evisioned imperialism to be our goal when they set this republic in motion. As a matter of fact, they were trying to get away from imperialist control. Defense, yes. World domination, no. With the money we spend and the deep involvement our culture has with weaponry and military matters, I think we are far off course. With 2010 showing the highest ever suicide rate in our armed forces, something is surely amiss. And these are boys and girls that opted for military service, not drafted against their will. This is absolute insanity. 😦

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article167800.html

    Washington has been at war in Asia since the first year of the decade that is now drawing to a close. It will still be in Afghanistan well into the middle of the next and in one manner and to some degree to its end. Asia is the Pentagon’s main 21st century war front.

  137. You guys are not going to believe this shit.

    Guess what phone call I missed today. Actually, it was several calls…. all in three minutes.

    My buddy was calling me from the Cash Cab….that Discovery Channel trivia show.

    My phone was blowing up and I was too lazy to get up off the recliner after work.

    I’m so pissed at myself.

    He comes on TV sometime in May. He didn’t win.

  138. I’ve seen that once or twice Rabbit. So would that make you a lifeline? I forget what they are called on that show.

    I’d be flattered that somebody ask me to do that – very complimentary, even if you’re a smart but lazy ass. 🙂

  139. Funny thing is my buddy is 10 times smarter then me. He wouldn’t have called me unless he knew that I would know the answer.

    I’m not sure why, but I’m really sick over this.

  140. Rabbit, your knowledge base is sufficiently eclectic I’m not at all surprised you got the call. I guess your friend figured your brain would be in drive but didn’t count on your ass being in park. 🙂

  141. “If the CBS report is accurate and Osama had indeed been admitted to the Pakistani military hospital on September 10, courtesy of America’s ally, he was either still in hospital in Rawalpindi on the 11th of September, when the attacks occurred or had been released from the hospital within the last hours before the attacks.
    In other words, Osama’s whereabouts were known to US officials on the morning of September 12, when Secretary of State Colin Powell initiated negotiations with Pakistan, with a view to arresting and extraditing bin Laden. These negotiations, led by General Mahmoud Ahmad, head of Pakistan’s military intelligence, on behalf of the government of President Pervez Musharraf, took place on the 12th and 13th of September in Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage’s office.
    He could have been arrested at short notice on September 10th, 2001. But then we would not have been privileged to five years of Osama related media stories. The Bush administration desperately needs the fiction of an “outside enemy of America”.
    Known and documented Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda is a construct of the US intelligence apparatus. His essential function is to give a face to the “war on terrorism”. The image must be vivid.”

    “The continued arrest of alleged 911 accomplices and suspects has nothing to do with “national security”. It creates the illusion that Arabs and Muslims are behind the terror plots, while shunting the conduct of a real criminal investigation into the 911 attacks. And what we’re dealing with is the criminalization of the upper echelons of State.”

  142. “In other words, Osama’s whereabouts were known to US officials on the morning of September 12…”

    According to CBS and Dan Rather.

    Need I say more?…..

  143. According to many more than just them. I don’t know which “news” source you trust. There are plenty in intelligence that agree with the findings in that article. Why not check out Pakistani intelligence. Here is an interview with Pakistani’s ISI’s former head honcho in the Washington Times.

    I’ve got more sources that confirm these same things. But first you must choose not to remain willfully blind, otherwise you won’t accept any sources offering info that goes against your preconceived notions.

  144. OK I gave page 1 of that link an honest chance, and of course the logic is full of holes and assumptions.

    The interviewee, who we can assume is a Muslim, naturally blames Israel for the attack. And offers no actual proof for that claim, instead relying on very weak circumstantial evidence

    He claims Osama didn’t have the capabilities to launch such a campaign from his cave, while ignoring all of the other complicated worldwide terror campaigns launched by al Qaeda.

    Oh, but some young girls in a Christian school told him Osama was their hero, so that is certainly proof of his innocence, isn’t it? I guess because they watch The Simpsons.

    I have no intention of wasting any more time on that drivel.

  145. “I’ve got more sources that confirm these same things. But first you must choose not to remain willfully blind, otherwise you won’t accept any sources offering info that goes against your preconceived notions.”

    You know, you have also been shown sources that dispute what you allege and support what we allege. You have chosen to remain willingly blind to what they have to say because they don’t say that al Qaeda was not responsible for 9/11. So don’t even think about trying to front that you are some free-thinker who isn’t being blindly led by preconceived notions.

  146. Is there some reason why Julian Assange hasn’t spilled the beans about the US attack on the Twin Towers?

    Or what about Barack Obama? Surely the guy who campaigned against the War in Iraq would have jumped on the chance to prove Bush toppled the towers so he could invade Islamistan.

    What does Bart Simpson have to say about that?

  147. You know, you have also been shown sources that dispute what you allege and support what we allege. You have chosen to remain willingly blind to what they have to say because they don’t say that al Qaeda was not responsible for 9/11. So don’t even think about trying to front that you are some free-thinker who isn’t being blindly led by preconceived notions.

    Why don’t you actually read the link the Gorilla supplied in 126. I don’t disagree with the information that link provides. As a matter of fact it SUPPORTS my position. It is a far better source than the wikipedia and newsmax links he later provides. From that same link:

    Since the Cold War era, Washington has consciously supported Osama bin Laden, while at same time placing him on the FBI’s “most wanted list” as the World’s foremost terrorist.

    While the Mujahideen are busy fighting America’s war in the Balkans and the former Soviet Union, the FBI –operating as a US based Police Force- is waging a domestic war against terrorism, operating in some respects independently of the CIA which has –since the Soviet-Afghan war– supported international terrorism through its covert operations.

    In a cruel irony, while the Islamic jihad –featured by the Bush Adminstration as “a threat to America”– is blamed for the terrorist assaults on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, these same Islamic organisations constitute a key instrument of US military-intelligence operations in the Balkans and the former Soviet Union.

    In the wake of the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, the truth must prevail to prevent the Bush Adminstration together with its NATO partners from embarking upon a military adventure which threatens the future of humanity.

    If you want to see OBL in a Pakistani uniform, you’ll have to watch the 3rd link in comment 154, since the other link was removed. He appears in minute 7:17 and 8:40 of that clip with the khaki uniform worn by the Pakistani army at the time. I don’t know for sure if the picture I linked in comment 137 and the Gorilla linked in comment 143 is actually OBL, but it has been attributed to being him by several sources.

  148. Is there some reason why Julian Assange hasn’t spilled the beans about the US attack on the Twin Towers?

    All I can say here is that either the information Julian was given (the leaks) was biased, or he chose to release biased information. If we could know the source that gave him the information. Otherwise it is mere speculation regarding Assange’s purpose or character. The fact that the media is all over this Wikileaks as “headline news” and the “leaks” show almost zero Israeli involvement is suspect in itself. I am not alone in that assessment. Someone’s agenda is being met. It does indeed paint a picture that makes some look very bad. I think it is planted there for us to feast on and absorb. Its credibility has been established with the “fear” and “anger” it has cast in the puppets and pundits.

    This will also feed into the internet freedoms we now experience and it threatens those. It’s about control of the message by control of the media. Most MSM and therefore the message is in whose hands? Coincidence?

  149. New World Order: Insider Reveals Diabolical Secrets Of The Rand Corporation

    Alex Abella on how mad men and a technocratic elite are intent on starting World War III

    Cuban-born journalist and author Alex Abella was allowed exclusive access inside the RAND Corporation to view their archives. What he discovered was a plot driven by mad scientists, behaviorists, and generals who were intent on starting world war three and fleecing the American people in the process. Once he was a skeptic on the subject of conspiracy theories and the new world order, but after his work with the RAND Corporation he is now convinced that this top secret think tank has been pulling the strings of American government for at least 60 years.

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