Health Care: Five Rich Countries That Cover Everyone

Thanks to a Facebook friend of mine, I stumbled upon a year old segment of PBS’s “Frontline” entitled “Sick Around the World”. The episode highlighted, in a fair and balanced way, how health care is administered in five leading capitalist countries. Most of these systems have cost issues, not for the sick but for the government. Yet each country has prioritized the care of its citizens above fear of deficits. Below, from the PBS web site is a summary of the five systems:

United Kingdom

Percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) spent on health care: 8.3

Average family premium: None; funded by taxation.

Co-payments: None for most services; some co-pays for dental care, eyeglasses and 5 percent of prescriptions. Young people and the elderly are exempt from all drug co-pays.

What is it? The British system is “socialized medicine” because the government both provides and pays for health care. Britons pay taxes for health care, and the government-run National Health Service (NHS) distributes those funds to health care providers. Hospital doctors are paid salaries. General practitioners (GPs), who run private practices, are paid based on the number of patients they see. A small number of specialists work outside the NHS and see private-pay patients.

How does it work? Because the system is funded through taxes, administrative costs are low; there are no bills to collect or claims to review. Patients have a “medical home” in their GP, who also serves as a gatekeeper to the rest of the system; patients must see their GP before going to a specialist. GPs, who are paid extra for keeping their patients healthy, are instrumental in preventive care, an area in which Britain is a world leader.

What are the concerns? The stereotype of socialized medicine — long waits and limited choice — still has some truth. In response, the British government has instituted reforms to help make care more competitive and give patients more choice. Hospitals now compete for NHS funds distributed by local Primary Care Trusts, and starting in April 2008 patients are able to choose where they want to be treated for many procedures.

Japan

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 8

Average family premium: $280 per month, with employers paying more than half.

Co-payments: 30 percent of the cost of a procedure, but the total amount paid in a month is capped according to income.

What is it? Japan uses a “social insurance” system in which all citizens are required to have health insurance, either through their work or purchased from a nonprofit, community-based plan. Those who can’t afford the premiums receive public assistance. Most health insurance is private; doctors and almost all hospitals are in the private sector.

How does it work? Japan boasts some of the best health statistics in the world, no doubt due in part to the Japanese diet and lifestyle. Unlike the U.K., there are no gatekeepers; the Japanese can go to any specialist when and as often as they like. Every two years the Ministry of Health negotiates with physicians to set the price for every procedure. This helps keeps costs down.

What are the concerns? In fact, Japan has been so successful at keeping costs down that Japan now spends too little on health care; half of the hospitals in Japan are operating in the red. Having no gatekeepers means there’s no check on how often the Japanese use health care, and patients may lack a medical home.

Germany

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 10.7

Average family premium: $750 per month; premiums are pegged to patients’ income.

Co-payments: 10 euros ($15) every three months; some patients, like pregnant women, are exempt.

What is it? Germany, like Japan, uses a social insurance model. In fact, Germany is the birthplace of social insurance, which dates back to Chancellor Otto von Bismarck. But unlike the Japanese, who get insurance from work or are assigned to a community fund, Germans are free to buy their insurance from one of more than 200 private, nonprofit “sickness funds.” As in Japan, the poor receive public assistance to pay their premiums.

How does it work? Sickness funds are nonprofit and cannot deny coverage based on preexisting conditions; they compete with each other for members, and fund managers are paid based on the size of their enrollments. Like Japan, Germany is a single-payment system, but instead of the government negotiating the prices, the sickness funds bargain with doctors as a group. Germans can go straight to a specialist without first seeing a gatekeeper doctor, but they may pay a higher co-pay if they do.

What are the concerns? The single-payment system leaves some German doctors feeling underpaid. A family doctor in Germany makes about two-thirds as much as he or she would in America. (Then again, German doctors pay much less for malpractice insurance, and many attend medical school for free.) Germany also lets the richest 10 percent opt out of the sickness funds in favor of U.S.-style for-profit insurance. These patients are generally seen more quickly by doctors, because the for-profit insurers pay doctors more than the sickness funds.

Taiwan

Percentage GDP spent on health care: 6.3

Average family premium: $650 per year for a family for four.

Co-payments: 20 percent of the cost of drugs, up to $6.50; up to $7 for outpatient care; $1.80 for dental and traditional Chinese medicine. There are exemptions for major diseases, childbirth, preventive services, and for the poor, veterans, and children.

What is it? Taiwan adopted a “National Health Insurance” model in 1995 after studying other countries’ systems. Like Japan and Germany, all citizens must have insurance, but there is only one, government-run insurer. Working people pay premiums split with their employers; others pay flat rates with government help; and some groups, like the poor and veterans, are fully subsidized. The resulting system is similar to Canada’s — and the U.S. Medicare program.

How does it work? Taiwan’s new health system extended insurance to the 40 percent of the population that lacked it while actually decreasing the growth of health care spending. The Taiwanese can see any doctor without a referral. Every citizen has a smart card, which is used to store his or her medical history and bill the national insurer. The system also helps public health officials monitor standards and effect policy changes nationwide. Thanks to this use of technology and the country’s single insurer, Taiwan’s health care system has the lowest administrative costs in the world.

What are the concerns? Like Japan, Taiwan’s system is not taking in enough money to cover the medical care it provides. The problem is compounded by politics, because it is up to Taiwan’s parliament to approve an increase in insurance premiums, which it has only done once since the program was enacted.

Switzerland

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn’t have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can’t afford the premiums.

How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world — but it’s still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are still slightly higher than in other European nations, and even then the discounts may be subsidized by the more expensive U.S. market, where some Swiss drug companies make one-third of their profits. In general, the Swiss do not have gatekeeper doctors, although some insurance plans require them or give a discount to consumers who use them.

via FRONTLINE: sick around the world: five capitalist democracies & how they do it | PBS.

Of all the things that struck me in the “Frontline” episode, the most interesting was a comment made by a Taiwanese official who participated in vetting various health care systems in order to construct Taiwan’s. He said about American health care that it is “not a system you can copy, it’s a market, so if you let things happen, it will be like the United States.” In other words, we do nothing as a country to manage the health care of our citizens. We leave the health of our citizens up to the free market, like health is some commodity. Advocates of free market principles believe in just “letting things happen” with the theory that competition breeds quality and naturally controls costs. Well, we’ve seen these free market principles bite us in the ass in the overall market, so why would we put the health of our citizens in the hands of the market?

More than anything else, this program opened my eyes to our fundamental problem. We view health as something that can be bought and sold. If you cannot afford a color television, you don’t get to watch color TV. If you can’t afford quality health care, you don’t get it. You got a problem with that? Tough, you need to be a winner in the capitalist system and not a whiner. Work hard and you can buy your TV and your cancer treatments! Simple, huh?

America should be following Taiwan’s lead and studying other countries’ systems to cobble together the best of the best. Of course, we suffer from not-invented-here syndrome so we are publishing thousands of pages of legislation that will probably do too little too late. And of course, whatever we put together must be subordinate to our love for the almighty dollar. Why else do you think we will force thousands of people into the eager arms of the current health insurance companies?

I never dreamed I’d say this but maybe we do need the current health care reform to fail so we can start over and use the triumphs of other countries as our guide? I’m not a just-say-no Republican. I’m a let’s-do-it-right humanitarian.

Anyone who cares about health care reform owes it to themselves to watch the full PBS special online at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/view/.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

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116 thoughts on “Health Care: Five Rich Countries That Cover Everyone

  1. Tell me R, what is the percentage of global medical advancement that have come from these bastions of medical utopia? Hmmm? What have they innovatively contributed to the overall advancement of medical technology?

    Once you figure that out, I’m sure you’ll come across how they stack up against the US. So tell me, is it worth losing that technological advancement?

  2. Obamateurism of the Day
    posted at 8:05 am on November 13, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

    Barack Obama demanded and received $787 billion in stimulus spending to keep unemployment below … 8%. Now that unemployment has hit 10.2%, did Obama take some responsibility for having blown his economic predictions and for pushing a failed, expensive policy? Not exactly. In his address announcing a “jobs summit” yesterday, Obama shifted the blame onto — employers:

    Have not yet been willing? Maybe Obama thinks of companies as Scrooge McDucks, sitting on piles of cash and lighting cigars with Benjamins — that’s how Nancy Pelosi thinks of insurance companies with their villainous 3% profit margins — but this as absurd a statement on the economy as one will find. Companies aren’t willfully refusing to hire people. They don’t have any work for them, nor do they have the revenues to afford more employees.

    Plus, let’s not forget all of the signals Obama has sent on taxes. Firms that might have been inclined to invest in expansion are holding onto whatever cash they have in preparation for the big increases that will have to come to pay for Obama’s big-government programs. Maybe if Obama dropped the budget-busting agenda and lowered the corporate tax rates, they’d be inclined to expand. But then he wouldn’t be able to take credit for all of those “saved or created” jobs any longer …

  3. Polls suggest healthcare debate a boon to GOP candidates running for Senate
    By Aaron Blake – 11/12/09 04:45 PM ET
    The healthcare battle appears to be helping Republicans running for the Senate.

    Two Quinnipiac polls released Thursday show the leading GOP candidates in Connecticut and Ohio growing their leads.

    Former Rep. Rob Simmons (R-Conn.) leads Sen. Chris Dodd (D-Conn.), 49-38, and former Rep. Rob Portman (R-Ohio) has opened his first leads over two potential Democratic opponents.

    The surveys are the first major Senate polls since the House passed its healthcare bill on Saturday.

    President Barack Obama’s approval on the healthcare issue has slipped in Ohio from 44 percent to 36 percent in the last two months, and now 57 percent of voters disapprove of his handling of it. Voters also by a wide margin say they oppose the healthcare bill, 55-36, after they were evenly divided, 44-44, in September…

    http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/67589-polls-suggest-healthcare-debate-a-boon-to-gop-senate-candidates

  4. Gorilla,

    This isnt even about health care. Its about control of the American people. Like tossing people in jail if you dont buy insurance. Something the drones are ignoring

  5. Rutherford keeps talking the humanitarian angle about those who don’t receive health care, yet I have not been able to find one person who can not receive minimal health care in an emergency room. I have yet to find one “progressive” who is willing to pick up another’s tab for healthcare either – though they are great at demanding the rest of us do so. Liberals are always incredibly generous with other’s money.

    This comparison by PBS is bogus – take Japan or Switzerland for example. Has anybody figured out yet that Japan and Switzerland’s population almost homogenous, and their immigration policies draconian in nature?

    I’ll bet if America adopted the slogan “keep your poor” instead of “give us your poor”, we too could reduce our health care costs dramatically, virtually assuring health care coverage for everybody with a much lower percentage cost of GDP.

    Another meaningless comparison…

  6. Tell me R, what is the percentage of global medical advancement that have come from these bastions of medical utopia?

    Gorilla, I think you’ve set up a false premise. It’s kinda like saying we can’t change a company’s sales strategy without effecting R&D.

    Innovation comes from R&D. So I don’t see how providing proper health care to all negatively impacts innovation. In fact, if I remember correctly, Japan innovated its MRI’s with less expensive materials to meet the needs of its health care system.

    I think you’ve drawn a correlation between these countries’ health care systems and their level of innovation that you can’t support.

  7. Using the Brits as an example? LOL

    Yes. The pro’s and con’s are stated. In my opinion, the Frontline special would not have rated the British solution as optimal. But I do find it interesting that British GP’s are incented financially to provide the best preventive care possible for their patients. In addition, British hospitals are now being encouraged to compete.

  8. Poem in Pakistani Jihadist Magazine: “Then We Will Go Inside America, We Will Blow up the Earth of New York; By Using the Plough of Jihad We, We Will Eliminate the Infidels from Earth”

    Haftroza Al-Qalam, an Urdu-language weekly Pakistani magazine, has published a poem inciting jihad against the U.S. and its allies in Afghanistan. The magazine owes its allegiance to the Sunni militant organization Jaish-e-Muhammad.

    Jaish-e-Muhammad, which is based in Pakistan’s Punjab province, is closely linked to Al-Qaeda. It is led by Maulana Masood Azhar, a Pakistani militant commander who was released by the Indian government in exchange for the passengers of an Indian plane that was hijacked in December 1999.

    The poem, which was published in the November 6-12, 2009 issue of Haftroza Al-Qalam, is written by Maulana Abu Jandal, probably a pen name. Following is the full text of the poem.

    http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD264509

  9. Gallup: Majority says not gov’t role to ensure universal health insurance
    posted at 10:55 am on November 13, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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    The push for ObamaCare has certainly had an effect on the debate over the role of government in health insurance and universal coverage, but probably not the one ObamaCare advocates intended. Gallup conducted its annual poll of adults on that question — and finds that a majority says that it isn’t a federal-government responsibility to provide health insurance to all Americans. This represents a 44-point swing in three years:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/13/gallup-majority-says-not-govt-role-to-ensure-universal-health-insurance/

  10. Big government, Big Labor the same thing
    posted at 11:36 am on November 13, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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    At least this explains why Andy Stern spends so much time at the White House. The Heritage Foundation looks at union penetration in the private and public sectors and finds that the government’s where it’s at, baby. While labor unions have more trouble getting workers to organize at private firms, government workers now comprise more than half of all union members in the country:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/13/big-government-big-labor-the-same-thing/

  11. Like tossing people in jail if you dont buy insurance.

    I won’t address this whole “going to jail” thing but if you have to be insured to drive a car, why shouldn’t you have to have health insurance too? Homeowners insurance is also mandatory. The only difference is you can choose not to have a car or a home but you do have to have a body.

    If you find your newly imposed health insurance premiums so terrible, stop driving your car and take the bus. Then you won’t have to pay the car insurance anymore. Better yet, forget the bus and walk … it’s better for your health. 😉

  12. KSM, 4 other 9/11 figures to be tried in NYC
    posted at 8:48 am on November 13, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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    The Obama administration will send five of the 9/11 plotters to New York City to face a criminal trial for their part in the terrorist attacks that killed almost 3,000 people. Among the terrorists to be tried is mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, perhaps the most notorious detainee currently at Guantanamo Bay. The decision will raise questions about security — and what Obama is prepared to do if prosecutors fumble the case:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/13/ksm-4-other-911-figures-to-be-tried-in-nyc/

    Way to go al-Thuggy. A shout out to the media circus

  13. Video: Holder says he’ll seek the death penalty for 9/11 plotters
    posted at 12:55 pm on November 13, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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    This is apparently the comfort that Barack Obama wants to offer America in exchange for turning the adjudication of terrorists into the next OJ trial. Greg Hengler captures the moment for Townhall, but even this is offered in a defensive manner by Attorney General Eric Holder. He’s answering questions about the seriousness in which the Obama administration views Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his four co-conspirators of the worst attack on American soil — an attack which most Americans saw as an act of war by a foreign entity, not as a crime to be prosecuted in the same courts that protect American liberty:

    Sorry, but that hardly conveys a sense of seriousness. These men are enemies of the US, not citizens or residents who committed a few murders. They don’t belong in a courtroom — they belong in a military tribunal, and at the end of a rope afterwards. KSM didn’t commit his “crime” in the US, after all; he committed it abroad, outside of the normal jurisdiction of the American court system.

    Holder says he seeks justice for the families of the victims. Some of the families may want a spectacle of a trial in which KSM and his cohorts get to inveigh against the US and its people and call millions to jihad through the US media. That doesn’t seem like justice to many of us in any sense, however. The military tribunals twice authorized by Congress would have given KSM and the rest of the jihadists a chance to challenge the evidence while keeping American intelligence safe from exposure. Andy McCarthy, who successfully prosecuted the Blind Sheikh for the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, wonders whether exposure isn’t what Holder wants anyway:

    If justice is what the Obama administration wanted, it had a much better instrument at hand — one they’re still using with other Gitmo detainees. That makes Andy’s argument pretty compelling.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/13/video-holder-says-hell-seek-the-death-penalty-for-911-plotters/

  14. I don’t want the day to pass before I ask the American public to raise their ire and demand that this General Casey nitwit be summarily fired on the spot and booted to the civilian curb.

    Anybody that would make the statement, “What happened at Fort Hood was a tragedy, but I believe it would be an even greater tragedy if our diversity becomes a casualty here” is not fit to command troops. He’s not fit for latrine duty.

    Give Casey a job he’s capable of – shining Obama’s shoes.

  15. More lies from the “progressives” being exposed by an immigrant mother of a severely wounded Vet who speaks out about how America is “hated” around the world. Tell us again Benevolent Barack how evil George Bush damaged our reputations irreparably?

    I swear, that is all the left does anymore – “progressives”, propaganda and lying go together like Moe, Larry & Curly:

    Her most poignant line with relevance to all was roughly this: “Don’t believe any of what you read about what the rest of the world thinks of this country. No matter where I have been, everyday people literally worship America and all it stands for.”

    She fully understands that so many of the people who are currently in charge don’t seem to understand or appreciate any of this, especially the part about American exceptionalism. If what she has suffered hasn’t deterred her, the events of this past weekend surely shouldn’t discourage others among us who also believe in it.

    This angel probably has no idea of what she did for me, or of what I suspect she does for others on a daily basis. She thought I was doing her a favor by listening to her story and was almost apologetic about sharing it with me. Doing everything I could to keep from turning into a babbling, blubbering mess, I said, “It was a privilege to hear it.”

    Read the rest…

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/touched-by-a-real-life-angel/2/

  16. I don’t want the day to pass before I ask the American public to raise their ire and demand that this General Casey nitwit be summarily fired

    If it’s any consolation to you, your military man, Gorilla, completely agrees with you. If I’m not mistaken, he called Casey an idiot in the prior thread.

  17. Regarding Tex’s Pajamasmedia citation, this quote kills me:

    “Congress’ determination to dismantle the greatest health care system in the world”. Could we please stop propagating this lie? Health care systems have been rated and no one, I mean no one is calling ours the best in the world. This is dumbass nationalistic chest beating.

    The system has to be changed. Is Pelosi/Obama-care the best method? As I indicated in this article, I’m not so sure anymore. But the status quo is not good and we need to stop pretending that it is.

  18. I just got back from my first parent/teacher conference at Kindergarten and the kid is knocking the ball right out of the park. This has put me in a very charitable mood. So, I’m giving Elric an easier option.

    Directly answer 19 OR 114 from the prior thread, and you live to comment another day. (Now this is basically a complete cave-in on my part because if you won’t answer 114, which is basically just explaining an acronym, then you have got to be the most stubborn homo-sapien on the planet.)

    Let’s see, about 7.5 hours to go. 🙂

  19. Regarding KSM being tried in New York … right on the money. The bastards came to New York to bring it down, and we will bring them back to New York to take them down. It’s perfect poetic justice.

  20. Napolitano: Hey, 2010 will be a good year for an immigration debate
    posted at 3:35 pm on November 13, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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    Showing the kind of political instincts that have driven the Obama administration’s poll numbers into negative territory already, Janet Napolitano declared that she expects Congress to take up comprehensive immigration reform … in an election year. Settling the legal status of illegal workers in a country suffering from double-digit unemployment already apparently qualifies as a higher priority than creating jobs and fixing the economy for people in the country legally for the DHS Secretary — but as Jammie Wearing Fool notes, we’ll need the jail space after ObamaCare passes:

    Yes, much has changed since the debacle of 2007, but not in the way Napolitano thinks. The economy crashed, for one thing, throwing millions of citizens and legal residents out of work. Legitimizing cheap labor isn’t exactly a great strategy to get those people working again, and suddenly making immigration reform a priority in the midst of a deep recession is going to go over like a lead balloon.

    JWF half-jokes about the incongruity of threatening Americans with prison time for not buying health insurance while looking to give amnesty to illegal aliens, but that’s about as foolish a political combination as could possibly be imagined. Are Democrats really more interested in enforcing criminal penalties for unconstitutional mandates to buy insurance than they are in enforcing legitimate immigration laws? Because that’s what Napolitano suggests in her political prognostication. You can bet that those mandates and their enforcement will form a core argument from Republicans against a push for amnesty — and that they’ll make sure to let Blue Dog district voters know which set of lawbreakers interest Democrats more.

    That’s part of what makes a push for immigration reform so unlikely in an election year. Obama may have been thinking that he could split Republicans in 2010 by pushing the issue, but few in the GOP will go along with amnesty or Amnesty Lite with unemployment in the US above 10%. They will demand action on economic growth and tell the DHS to just do their jobs in enforcing immigration law. And in 2010, many Americans will agree with that set of priorities — and wonder at the Democrats’ set — as they go to the polls.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/13/napolitano-hey-2010-will-be-a-good-year-for-an-immigration-debate/

    Has al-Thuggy done anything thats made this country better? Anything?

  21. Has anybody figured out yet that Japan and Switzerland’s population almost homogenous, and their immigration policies draconian in nature?

    Tex, are their populations homogeneous economically? Are there no poor people in these countries? I don’t see what ethnic diversity has to do with the argument. These are still countries where tax payers support the medical care of the poor, just as they would here if we had any sense of morality about it.

  22. I’m not sure I’ve ever been angrier at a President of the United States.

    I not only saw the bodies but smelled the death of 9/11. I showed up to NYC on 10/11 giddy with excitement to see ground zero and left ashamed, feeling like an asshole for mentally framing such savage attack on America as a tourist site.

    The Rabbit left feeling heavy and close to weeping.

    Never in a million years did I think our own President would back stab us.

    I’m sure Rutherford will come up with some bull shit how this will improve our standing with the savages.

    Wake up, you liberal fools.

    This is lose-lose, you dumb unworldly fucks.

    The master mind of 9/11 is innocent in an American court of law!

    Were his Miranda rights read? Were the interrogation methods constitutional within a framework of an American court of law?

    Fuck no! Motherfucker taken from a battlefield. He is an enemy combatant.

    If he is found guilty, precedent will have been set that infringes on every citizens’ rights.

    If he is found innocent, he could even walk a way a free man!

    Or maybe his lawyers will extend this thing out for years as the master mind of 9/11 makes a mockery of us all?

    Maybe the master mind of 9/11 will represent his self, taking pleasure in calling infidels to the stand who lost a mother or a child in this act of war.

    I will never get over this one. I will tell my grandchildren what this President did to those who have fallen in battle. I will never forgive Obama for this shit.

    You can blame me for being dramatic all you want. Obama is in league with the enemy. The only question is if he is aware of this fact or not.

  23. “Never in a million years did I think our own President would back stab us.”

    Really? Where have you been for the past year? Thats all he does is stab America in the back. The jerkoff cant even show respect to the American flag, let alone the nation. Screw the POS.

  24. Rabbit, we prosecuted the perps responsible for the first WTC bombing in New York and they went to prison. This, to my mind is no different.

    Nothing could possibly improve our standing in the world more than to give these savages a taste of the American criminal justice system and then fry them. There will be no accusations of secret incarceration or rights abridgment. The world will see how a free country treats its criminals.

    And as I said earlier, these guys getting their just deserts in NYC is poetic justice.

  25. How can he possibly be tried and found guilty? No Miranda rights, mother fucker was water boarded.

    He isn’t being tried in a real Federal Court of Law, but instead an ad hoc, politically correct monstrosity that will ultimately come back to huant us all.

    This is the very definition of a kangaroo court.

    I’m telling you, this is horrible.

    Obama could care less about our own rights. He is willing to forgo all of the proper due process laws that should exist in every Federal Court room in America to score points with the sicphants that bestowed upon him the Nobel Peace Prize.

    He needs to impeached for this.

  26. Rabbit, you’ve got me confused … what do you mean by “in ’01”?

    Also, I know you might not think much of Eric Holder, but do you really think he would be choosing this option if he didn’t think he had a decent chance of convicting these people? Do you have any notion of the uproar he is risking if an acquittal is the slam-dunk you seem to think it is.

    C’mon, give the man just a bit of credit. No prosecutor pursues a case he doesn’t think he can win.

  27. “How can he possibly be tried and found guilty? No Miranda rights, mother fucker was water boarded.”

    Exactly. Now that you admit this, the next question is why is al-Thuggy doing this?

  28. Don’t you see that a conviction will be unconstitutional?

    I meant back in ’01, I never thought in a million years that a President would be going out of his way to make sure the savage that slaughtered those on 9/11 would get every right that I have in a court room.

  29. I’m not sure an acquittal is a slam dunk. If the laws of our land mean anything, the Government has some serious problems on their hands now that this savage is the same as me and you.

    A verdict of guilty means every due process law has become a joke for us all.

    An verdict innocent means Obama has freed the very guy who slaughtered 3,000 American innocents.

    A 2 year trial is a propaganda dream come true for our enemy.

  30. I don’t think Obama is in league with Al Quada. He honestly probably believes he is sending some message of righteousness to the world. He see the culmination of all of American history as hitherto evil and thinks he setting things straight.

    Like I said before, I will do my part for the rest of my life to never let anyone forget what President Obama did to this country after 9/11.

  31. Rabbit, this may deserve its own thread.

    If anything should spell out for you why torture is wrong, this should be it. Let’s take your approach …. we did crap to this guy that makes him un-prosecutable. Well that’s a huge friggin problem isn’t it? A problem that was condoned and encouraged by the Bush administration.

    Gorilla can weigh in on this, but I don’t think a military trial would provide any advantage since I’m sure military tribunals also recognize certain civil rights of the defendant.

    So, we rule out civilian trial, we rule out military trial. So what’s your solution? Hold the guy, un-accused and un-convicted until he dies? Is that the way our country operates?

  32. Rutherford, you need to rephrase this quote about Gorilla, because he is obviously a patriot:

    If it’s any consolation to you, your military man, Gorilla, completely agrees with you. If I’m not mistaken, he called Casey an idiot in the prior thread.

    That would be “our” military man. Besides the Atlantic Ocean and some poorly enforced immigration laws, guys like Gorilla are the only thing keeping you from getting the scimitar or crawling to Mecca. 😉

  33. Dude….according to your own views, the savage should walk.

    How can you come one here and whimper about rights and torture and then say wax on about the slam dunk?

    Your right, he is not guilty in an American court of law.

    Go write your post. Be sure to argue for his acquittal.

    Yes, holding him “un-accused” and”un-convicted” suites me fine, at least until the war ends. I suppose that would be the only good thing about the pending half century war we are looking at.

    As for military trials, your talking out of your ass, again, fraud. You don’t know the first thing about them.

    For starters, due process laws don’t exist in military trials.

  34. I’m sure that Japan and Switzerland have poor – every country does. What Japan and Switzerland don’t do that we will is to take every other poor person too.

    Which means you are missing my point. Assuming for a minute that Japan’s and Switzerland’s health care system are comparable to ours in quality, I can guarantee you won’t move and join the health care rolls unless you’re paying about half your income in taxes. If these countries were as “liberal” about acceptance as we are, people would be flocking there in droves – but they are not.

  35. “we did crap to this guy that makes him un-prosecutable. Well that’s a huge friggin problem isn’t it? A problem that was condoned and encouraged by the Bush administration.”

    I don’t really give a shit about your gotcha game with the Bush administration that seems to give such life force.

    I don’t give a shit about your views on waterboarding.

    Why are you praising a decision in which an unprosecutable terrorist is being….prosecuted!

    Yet, your talking about the slam dunk??????????

    You’re sick, dude. To prove a point about waterboarding someone, your willing rape this country.

    Fucking Copperhead.

  36. Rabbit,

    What excuse do you think Obama, Holder and Rutherford will dream up, assuming for a minute that one of Khalid’s buddies like Hasan just happens to explode a grenade in the federal court room?

    Do you think we could begin to hear again that America is at fault for creating this enemy, that Iraq caused this, that America imperialistic, that everyone hates America (which I proved was completely bogus from above), or that it was deserved because we “tortured” poor, poor Khalid.

    Rutherford, you spit in the face of the victims of 9/11 and our military with your bullshit charges of “torture”. This scum Khalid was among the most evil, violent, and biggest mass murders in history, will appear in court without so much as a scar, and yet you’ll find something to make this political.

    You deserve what is coming to you in the future and I will find little sympathy.

  37. Tex,

    He doesn’t even make sense. His blind allegiance to Obama and his hatred for the “other team” skews any semblance of consistency.

    Rutherford is plain as day calling for a person that he admits is impossible to prosecute to be prosecuted.

    A little cost/benefit analysis is in order, even for a bleeding heart lib who worries more about some hairy savage with lactating camel tits then his fellow Americans.

    Innocent. He walks. American people are hurt.

    Guilty. American rights have been trampled. American people are hurt.

    Lets pretend for one reason that the water boarding of this piece of dog shit was, in fact, so utterly horrendous and that it does produce a legal quagmire.

    Who should get legally screwed?

    The terrorist or the innocent American people?

    Rutherford and is hate America crowd (not so) secretly likes seeing America get fucked. I’m convinced of it.

  38. “How can you come one here and whimper about rights and torture and then say wax on about the slam dunk?”

    Thats the “liberal” mentality. KSM was “tortured” to get info to save American lives. He was never meant to go to some civilian court.

    as for al-Thuggy thinking he is doing the “righteous” thing, he isn’t. He is a marxist globalist, he doesnt do anything to better America. He was raised to hate it and now you are seeing the result.

  39. Rabbit,

    What Rutherford really fails to realize is this is another dog & pony show that will empower the terrorists to do more harm and to give the terrorists another global forum to jabber jihad. Holder is blatantly incompetent and we knew that before he was appointed.

    I’m convinced this is a last gasp try to slam the Bush regime and to distract the public from the Obama regime’s abject failure at anything of importance.

    It’s all the “progressive” cowards have because they’ve already shown they don’t know how to run a nation…

  40. Here It Is… Team Obama Unveils Comprehensive Immigration Strategy
    Friday, November 13, 2009, 3:04 PM
    Jim Hoft

    After they ruin the economy Democrats have a plan to keep their power…
    And they outlined it today.
    Democrats will give citizenship to the 10-30 million illegal aliens residing within the US borders.
    Perfect.
    The Examiner reported:

    Though it would seem unlikely that our President would introduce a controversial immigration reform strategy on the cusp of a healthcare decision in the Senate, he did indeed do that today.

    DHS Secretary Napolitano introduced a broad outline for reform during a speech to the Center for America Progress this morning. In it she cited the many advances DHS has made in securing the US Border with Mexico. One of the centerpieces of this effort is the screening of 100% of southbound rail shipments for weapons and cash. While that sounds like a good thing for Mexico the logical question is this: What percent of northbound rail shipments are “screened” and what does “screening mean? Not to sound cynical but this Administration does not have a good record when it comes to spin and telling the absolute truth. The President demonstrated that clearly last week with Healthcare Reform.

    The plan calls for a path to citizenship for the 11 million illegal aliens already in the US. On this the administration also seems a bit out of touch. That the vast majority of Mexican illegal invaders according to a recent Zogby Poll have no interest in becoming American Citizens and regardless would hold primary allegiance to Mexico is apparently lost on the President and Secretary Napolitano.

    No wonder Pelosi and the democrats don’t seem worried that their radical anti-capitalist agenda will sway voters in the 2010 election.

    http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2009/11/here-it-is-team-obama-unveils-comprehensive-immigration-strategy/

    Here is a perfect example on al-Thuggy intentionally destroying the nation DR.

  41. “What Rutherford really fails to realize is this is another dog & pony show that will empower the terrorists to do more harm and to give the terrorists another global forum to jabber jihad”

    What makes you think he doesnt know that or really cares?

  42. Tex,

    How someone can show such a lack of respect for our national defense and the rights every citizen has in a court of law in one swoop blows me away.

    This just can’t be forgiven.

    Rutherford will paint me as some loon just hating on Obama.

    I will relish the day he is voted out of office.

    I seriously think he may be a one term President.

  43. Elric,

    I’m not sure what to think of Rutherford anymore. I used to think he was just an over educated Obama rube, who bought off on the empty promises – but a formidable debater nonetheless. Rutherford has since been shown to have been incorrect because Obama has proven more awful than even his biggest critics dreamed.

    Matter of time before about 65% of the nation turns totally against Obama. The other 35% are simply rubes who either don’t know any better, or are like Rutherford who would rather die than admit Obama is rotten. Rutherford has got too much of himself invested in the man, a lifetime of liberalism in his blood. It’s a lost cause and he’ll go to his grave dreaming he’s right.

    But lately Rutherford has shown real weakness that I never recognized before I started posting here. I believe it is because he has finally run out of excuses…with no answers to the difficult questions.

    There may be a bit of truth to Rabbit’s charges – Rutherford may be more like Cornell West, Henry Louis Gates Jr., Rev. Al than I would like to believe. When he answers like the way he did to Rabbit above, it becomes apparent to me that Rutherford may have a little disdain for the country. Of course, that is a common malady of libs…almost a prerequisite. 😉

  44. First Rutherford compares a human being to an automobile. Like cars, we should all have to be insured or be arrested. Suck my exhaust pipe, buddy. Mandatory car insurance covers the damage you do to another, not maintenance.

    Then he says that the orginal WTC bombing is equivalent to 9/11. Nevermind the fact that two packed jet liners destroyed both buildings, he seems to have forgotten that the assailents of the first bombing lived in America and were legally arrested by the FBI.

  45. DR,

    You know whats funny about that? The drones want the government to keeps its hands of a women’s body but its anything goes with anything else, including tossing your ass in jail if you dont buy health insurance.

  46. Video: Glenn Beck devotes entire show to black conservatives
    posted at 9:03 pm on November 13, 2009 by Allahpundit
    Share on Facebook | printer-friendly

    A brilliant idea, although I hope the participants know that they’re now fair game for “progressive” blackface photoshops mocking them as traitors to their race. The Clinton coalition is fracturing, thanks to The One’s statism on steroids; every white surbanbite vote that’s lost will have to be made up with a minority vote, which means the volume on the demagoguery will have to be turned up that much higher. You’re a brave man, Charles Payne.

    You can watch the entire episode at Fox News. Enjoy.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/13/video-glenn-beck-devotes-entire-show-to-black-conservatives/

  47. Rutherford is plain as day calling for a person that he admits is impossible to prosecute to be prosecuted.

    DR in your eagerness for a fight, you have misinterpreted me. I was playing devil’s advocate and taking YOUR side that the dude is impossible to prosecute, and then pointing out that IF this were true, we’d have Bush (not really) and Cheney (yes really) to blame.

    I believe he IS prosecutable or Holder would not be going down this route in the first place.

    And Tex … no one is going to be bombing the federal courthouse. I don’t minimize the trauma and impact of 9/11 but it was not the first incidence of terrorism in this country, much less in NYC. We tried the first set of WTC bombers and no federal courthouses got bombed.

    I’m actually a bit surprised by this streak of yellow-bellied sissy going on here. We, the biggest baddest country in the world can’t put a terrorist on trial without getting assaulted? Sorry guys but you’re engaging in melodrama.

  48. Rutherford,

    I’m actually surprised you’re dumb enough to not see the risks of giving terrorists an open court to spout their nonsense and inflame the Muslim world – the very thing you crucified George Bush about for seven years. You are an all-pro hypocrite in that regard, as is your shit-for-brains affirmative action Attorney General.

    And the Zacarias Moussaoui was a joke which lasted for four years, and that will look like Perry Mason compared to this farce. There is not one thing to be gained from this fiasco besides maybe the chance you can hammer Bush, detracting from the absolutely miserable job your party is doing. And you know it.

    You obviously don’t give a shit about the families of 9/11 – the vast majority who are adamantly against this, or the safety of our intelligence department which will now be put on trial too. And don’t give me your usual bullshit about justice – you don’t know what justice is…

    Frankly, your politics is beginning to sicken me as is your hypocrisy. ** puke **

  49. “I believe he IS prosecutable or Holder would not be going down this route in the first place”.-R

    Illogical fallacy. Appeal to authority.

  50. If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch
    You must first invent the universe.

    Sounds like the liberal philosophy on health care.

    This video is so ridiculous it cracked me up. I had ti find a political tie in somehow.

  51. Bravo Dead Rabbit. Now THAT was a creative tie-in! And it sorta captures the theme of this article. I am beginning to think that like Taiwan, we need to assemble a blue ribbon panel to evaluate the different health care systems in the civilized world and then put together the best of the best. Essentially start from scratch (invent the universe, so to speak).

  52. You obviously don’t give a shit about the families of 9/11 – the vast majority who are adamantly against this

    Oh Tex give it a rest. Here you go quoting statistics (without any numbers I might add — “vast majority”) that you’ve pulled straight out of your ass.

    I’m in the process of reading various opinions on the matter as I prepare to write my own article. I’m seeing 9/11 families on BOTH sides of the issue. Many of them say exactly what I said … poetic justice. Bring the mofo’s back to where they did the deed and then slam them in front of the world. On the other hand, some agree with you and one quite absurdly was quoted as saying just hang them without any trial (military or otherwise).

  53. Rutherford, what if we ignore basic rights that all people tried in a Federal Court are supposed to have in order to get a guilty verdict. You cool with that?

  54. Again, I’m still getting educated on this and there are strong arguments on both sides.

    From what I understand, legit FBI policework was done in parallel with the torture program such that we have enough legit evidence to convict these guys. hence, I don’t believe your premise will necessarily come to pass.

  55. You know damn well your spineless friends are teaming up with the terrorists to take down Bush.

    Some say it outright.

    By the time this is over, I’m afraid me and you aren’t going to have much to talk about.

  56. 1. There is no way that this trial can be held in New York and still be called a fair trial.

    2. There is no way that sensitive information won’t become public, weakening our defense.

    3. There is no way the world will think this a fair trial anyways.

    4. There is no way that Al Queda won’t relish and utilize every minute on the world stage.

    5. There is no way that this decision isn’t 100% political.

    6. There is no way that some piece of shit who attacked my nation and was taken from the field of battle should receive the same rights as me.

    7. There is no way that certain Constitutional rights won’t be trampled in finding this guy guilty.

    8. There is no way that our soldiers, CIA and Bush won’t be essentially the ones on trial.

    And mark my words, in wake of the unlikely event that this guy walks, Rutherford, I swear to God, you and your friends will officially be enemies of mine for life.

    I will make sure my kid hates you and my kid’s kid hates you.

  57. “From what I understand, legit FBI policework was done in parallel with the torture program such that we have enough legit evidence to convict these guys. hence, I don’t believe your premise will necessarily come to pass”-r

    Why risk it? Why fucking risk it, you lap dog? What do you think this proves?

    do you think anyone in their right mind will believe these guys got fair justice? Even I don’t think that’s possible.

    Who’s heart will we win over by doing this?

    Wake up. Wake up.

    My God, you and your friends are beyond me. There are no depths you won’t sink to. I swear i fucking hate you man.

    I can’t talk to liberals anymore becuase of this.

    I need a few weeks to cool down.

  58. First, Rabbit, do you usually allow yourself to get this worked up on a Saturday afternoon? Damn man, it’s the weekend. Pop open a cool one and relax a bit.

    To address your points:

    1. There is no way that this trial can be held in New York and still be called a fair trial.
    The first thing we can expect from the defense is a change of venue request. From what I’ve heard, the federal judges that handle these cases out of NY are tough as nails. A change of venue may very well be denied, Even if the request is granted, so what? They need to be tried and convicted. I don’t really care where.

    2. There is no way that sensitive information won’t become public, weakening our defense.
    One of the factors used to determine which detainees would get civilian trials and which would get military trials was the possible exposure of secrets. That is why only five 9/11 folks are getting tried in NY and not the entire bunch.

    3. There is no way the world will think this a fair trial anyways.
    Which world are you talking about? The radical Muslim world hates us no matter what we do so that’s a moot point. The “free world” will look upon this with wonder and admiration as we walk it the way we talk it. There is no better advertisement for our democracy than a high profile case in our judicial system.

    4. There is no way that Al Queda won’t relish and utilize every minute on the world stage.
    I fully agree. They make everything we do look bad. They are masters of anti-American propaganda. If we base our actions on how they will spin it, they win and we lose.

    5. There is no way that this decision isn’t 100% political.
    I’m no government mind-reader. It’s fair to say politics plays into many prosecutorial decisions. District Attorneys are elected for the most part, aren’t they?

    6. There is no way that some piece of shit who attacked my nation and was taken from the field of battle should receive the same rights as me.
    Do you want the guy tried at all or do you want him to just rot in a prison camp? You poo-pooed my tribunal statement earlier saying I was pulling stuff out of my ass. I don’t know much about military courts but I’m pretty damn sure they are not kangaroo courts. Defendants in a military tribunal have certain rights. Do you want these dudes tried or not? If they get tried, regardless of method, they will be granted certain rights.

    Is it the “field of battle” that has you steamed? Tim McVeigh was a scumbag who got the same rights as you did in a court of law. Did that steam you? Either you believe in our judicial system and our constitution or you don’t.

    7. There is no way that certain Constitutional rights won’t be trampled in finding this guy guilty.
    I addressed this elsewhere. Every effort will be made to use non-tainted evidence to gain a conviction.

    8. There is no way that our soldiers, CIA and Bush won’t be essentially the ones on trial.
    Yup. Cheney will be dragged through the mud on this very possibly. I won’t lose a moment’s sleep about it UNLESS it results in the acquittal of KSM etal. If that happens it will be a very dark day for this country. You’ll blame Obama/Holder, I’ll blame Cheney.

  59. You would blame Cheney if these guys walk?

    I can’t come here anymore. It’s just not healthy.

    I am requesting anyone who posts here to stop.

    Boycott.

    Elric, go somewhere else.

    Tex, there is no common ground here.

    It’s gotten to the point where any person who loves their country that helps bring attention to this blog is doing a disservice to themselves.

    let the liberals stroke themselves off here alone.

    BOYCOTT.

    SAY YOUR GOOD BYE, IF NEED BE, AND BOYCOTT.

  60. lol….my internet tantrums do look pretty funny online. my true anger comes off looking like an upset teen age girl.

    that being said, this shit giving war criminals American rights is the tipping point for me.

    Then if it doesn’t work, Rutherford says its the Bush administration’s fault. Nice slight of hand, coward.

    it sincerely pisses me off to the point where I’m in a bad mood.

    I swear this country is heading in a direction in which we will all pay.

    I’m retiring from civic debate.

    time to concentrate on enjoying little things while unrealistic twits like Rutherford slowly make our defense weak and our freedom limited.

    playing with the baby, working out, softball, hunting, fishing…….that is what will be on the Rabbit’s mind.

    Letting the fruitcakes get me angry to the point that it starts to effect the simple life is stupid.

    later everyone.

    I will report back next year.

  61. Rabbit, you love our country. The biggest mistake you make is believing I don’t love this country also.

    Passionate debate is what America is all about. If you do “leave”, I’ll genuinely miss you. You are among several folks who actually write their own damn thoughts down in this forum and you in particular engage in probably the most intellectually honest debate of anyone here.

    Listen. You already know how I feel about Cheney. Why this should surprise you right now puzzles me. You already know that even before this Holder decision, I felt Cheney gravely compromised our nation with this “torture” policy. One of the ways in which he compromised us was by making these detainees potentially un-prosecutable so that justice can NEVER be done for the grieving 9/11 families. I don’t know why THAT does not piss you off.

    But make no mistake, my blood lust for Cheney does not override my desire to see the bastards who planned the attack on this country pay for their crime.

    The truth Rabbit is we don’t have to politicize this. All we need to do is try the bastards, convict them and then execute them in the good old American way that every free nation has come to expect from us. As someone who is proud of your country and its constitution, I don’t honestly understand why you so vehemently disagree with me on this.

    As for the baby and softball and hunting and fishing … you’re damn right. They’re all more important than this blog. Hell, if I felt I was really sacrificing my family, I wouldn’t be here.

    Like I said, I hope you’re just having a bad day and that you’ll be back on Monday. If not, you’ll be missed and I wish only the best for you, Bronson and Mrs. Rabbit. 🙂

  62. I bet my life savings DR will be back in a couple days…or have his personal assistant Road Kill or whatever her/his name was, come make his statements for him.

  63. I don’t wanna be disrespectful to R so I’ll formally say that I have read your post and commenting on the general idea of comparing the US system with other systems would be contradictory to what I’ve said in the past. But, good post, not watching the video though, I have to figure out how to keep the man from bringing me down by beating this speeding ticket, my dad’s going to pay for it (DR, don’t even comment on that!), but I still think I should not have points on my ticket.

    Does anyone know it insurance companies raise prices if you only have 1 speeding ticket with 3 points??

  64. commenting on the general idea of comparing the US system with other systems would be contradictory to what I’ve said in the past.

    When you have time, please elaborate on how comparing health care systems would be contradictory to what you’ve said in the past. I don’t completely follow.

    As for the speeding ticket, I think the rules vary from insurance company to insurance company. I’d be surprised if there is one answer. Check your policy and you might find the answer in there.

  65. because I completely blasted republicans for comparing bad health care systems with ours by saying we have a different system. Anyways, the right side of my brain is hurting so maybe I just misunderstood the premise of this whole post.

    My policy is probably too many pages long, I’ll probably just ask a customer service agent.

  66. because I completely blasted republicans for comparing bad health care systems with ours by saying we have a different system.

    Well exactly but what the Republicans aren’t telling you is that all the alternative systems are not necessarily bad. In fact, they tend to only talk about Canada and the UK. The Frontline special pretty much admits that the UK system probably has the most issues. Canada doesn’t even get a mention.

    The point of my article is that if we do what Taiwan did and take the best parts of several alternative systems, we might have something. My problem with the current legislation is I sense we are building the solution upon a shaky foundation and the problem won’t really get solved. We either need single payer or for insurance companies to be mandated to be non-profit. Current proposed legislation does neither.

    As for your auto policy … check the table of contents or the index … there is probably a section called “penalties” or something like that. Good luck with the customer rep. 😉

  67. If it is a false correlation, then the innovation results should bear that out. So tell me, who provides the most medical innovations?

  68. Gorilla, I don’t think we have a controlled experiment here, now do we? I don’t know off the top of my head who has the most medical innovations. I do know that Germany used to be very strong in medical innovations, particularly in the area of orthopedics, but even if I were to concede to you that the USA is the leading innovator, you’ve still failed to prove any correlation to our choice of health care system.

    If it rains three Mondays in a row, you don’t say it rains because it is Monday. You’re asking me to take a result (again, for the sake of argument that US is most innovative) and then tie that to one leading cause, a for-profit private insurance system. The correlation hasn’t been proven.

  69. For what ever reason, previous comment is messed up- please delete R.

    What I said was actually a question- do you mean to tell us R that a non-profit medical system will have as many innovations as a for-profit system?

    Really, it is that simple.

  70. Why does insurance have to be non-profit? It is hilarious to listen to you, your argument for the public option is greater competition, yet there are already over 1700 different insurance providers and you refuse to allow inter-state competition.

  71. What I said was actually a question- do you mean to tell us R that a non-profit medical system will have as many innovations as a for-profit system?

    His answer had better be no Gorilla. But I can assure you in his obtuse way, Rutherford will come up with some lame “empirical data” excuse, furthering why I believe libs are not only inept and impractical, but incredibly dishonest.

    This worthless Attorney General of ours is a shining moment of how treacherous people the left really can be. It dawned on me this week, Holder is going to ram this “waterboarding debate” through, framed by the leftist New York courts as torture through. He’ll use the excuse that the military tribunal had five years, never admitting it was attorneys like Holder who were holding the entire show up in the courts.

    The leftists like Rutherford and Holder are treacherous because they will give jihadists an open, global forum to whitewash their crimes, hoping that they can do damage to Bush, no matter that they will further inflame the Muslim propagandists endangering our soldiers. Let us never let them again provide this ammunition for their feeble excuses of why we shouldn’t have gone to war with Iraq because the inflamed excuse is one of their favorites. Their hypocrisy is now on full display..

    In this way, the leftists of America and the Imams have much in common. Totally selfish, totally cowardly in their lust for personal power. I have decided that Rutherford and his ilk are enemies of the state and should be treated as such. Yes Rutherford so there is no misunderstanding, you read that correctly.

  72. This is what I don’t understand on this- why the rush when nothing goes into effect until after the 2012 elections? You can’t tell me that the 2013 date wasn’t arrived at for any other reason than the Presidential elections. Secondly, why the complete lack of transparency? How many of the Congressman who voted for it actually read the bill? Very few. Why not post the final bill for popular review, as both Obama and Pelosi originally said they would? Why shut out the GOP from any discussions, but then lament the lack of bipartisan efforts? R knows, just like every other leftist, which is anything but a bipartisan, transparent endeavor. Just be honest about what it is, and move forward instead of repeatedly lying to us.

  73. First, regarding comment 90 … G, look at the pretty picture? Is that the one you wanted deleted? I’m still dying to know what that picture is. 😉

    I’m not sure you get the point of this post. I am not here to defend the current House bill. As I stated, I think we may need to go back to the drawing board.

    Regarding profit and innovation, why do health insurance companies need to make a profit? In what way do they innovate anything? In fact, as Representative Anthony Wiener points out repeatedly, what actual value is added by insurance companies. They transfer funds and they use pooled premiums to offset the full cost of medical procedures for their customers. That’s it. Not one bit of innovation there.

    What conservatives like to do lately, primarily to scare people is to suggest that doctors, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, etc. will all be owned by the government under the current bill or any contemplated legislation. A flat out lie. One of the only players for whom the profit incentive is NOT working are the insurance companies and they are the ones who need regulation.

  74. In fact, as Representative Anthony Wiener points out repeatedly, what actual value is added by insurance companies. They transfer funds and they use pooled premiums to offset the full cost of medical procedures for their customers.

    Another vacuous observation by a lib representatives and his toe sucking toady Rutherford. Here’s what insurance companies do dimwit – they inherent a degree of risk for a profit. No different than most companies do.

    Why don’t you take it up with the left’s most quoted lackey Warren Buffett? Health care providers make exactly a 3.6% profit on their investment. I’ll take the 3.6% investment and let them have it compared to Nancy Obama’s multi-trillion dollar facade of a proposal.

    NARAL Weiner, who should change his spelling is the most appropriately named schmuck I’ve ever witnessed on account of his pencil-neck (it looks like somebody drew his head on comically), has never held a private sector job and wouldn’t understand free enterprise to save his life.

    The fact that Rutherford continues to pull up the dregs of NYC amuses me – they’ve about run the city into the ground as the rich are now leaving in droves.

  75. Health care providers make exactly a 3.6% profit on their investment.

    Again, like a true fear-monger you like to play fast and loose with the terminology. Insurance companies are NOT health care providers.

    Now, assuming you meant to say that insurance companies pull in a measly 3.6%, where does all the extra money come from for the inflated salaries of insurance company CEO’s? Looks like that 3.6% is going a long way!

    I do enjoy looking at the world-according-to-Tex. Where are the NYC rich running to Tex?

  76. Here know nothing. Or did I pull this one out of my ass too? If you don’t like the source, one was just posted on Drudge two weeks ago from the New York Post saying the same thing.

    http://queenscrap.blogspot.com/2009/10/people-leaving-ny-city-state-in-droves.html

    —————————————————

    Buy the way, I will stake a high wage that most 9/11 families are adamantly against your friend Khalid being brought to New York so you and the lackeys think you can score political points.

    ———————————————

    Playing fast and loose with facts? United Healthcare not count as insurance? Or Aetna? Who do you think you’re paying dip? Both are insurance providers so you need to pull your head out of your arse – according to Yahoo, all insurance companies have a 6% profit margin – take it to zero and it still won’t come anywhere near paying your “Nancy Obama” plan.

    Read closer and it was 2.2% last year.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091025/ap_on_go_co/us_fact_check_health_insurance

    Do you know what the profit margin ripoff for the federal government tax is on gasoline? Four times more than the oil company profits, so thieves like you can bitch to Obama about your fuel bill. As usual, you’re parroting Keith Olbermann and like him, don’t have a clue.

    Go take a basic Accounting class and get back with me so you can carry on an elementary conversation about how bonuses are booked. Here, read this and learn something…unless you’re going to tell me even a Reuters in the tank with FOX News.

    http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/06/11/leave-pay-to-companies-shareholders/

  77. United Healthcare not count as insurance?

    What in the name of heaven is this about? Yes, United Healthcare is an insurance company … NOT a health care provider. Your point?

    I shall read your links later … I love to be edumacated. 😀

  78. OK of your links, 2 out of 3 ain’t bad. The Reuters one was about financials, not the insurance industry. Regardless, even if you favor the Board of Directors setting salaries, the money has to come from somewhere. So the huge CEO salaries come out of profits or perhaps out of company stock.

    Why should the CEO of UHG make more than a million bucks a year when his company denies service based on pre-existing conditions? The immorality is staggering.

  79. Why should the CEO of UHG make more than a million bucks a year when his company denies service based on pre-existing conditions? The immorality is staggering.

    I think Obama and Rahm making millions of the dole is a much bigger ripoff. For starters, Obama can pay for his own dates and reimburse the government dole $326K plus liabilities for the Manhattan flyover which caused mass panic.

    I didn’t hear any complaints from you when Obama fans from Fannie and Freddie were making $100M+, nor did I hear you whine when Rahm racked in a cool $14M over 18 months for his time coordinating “the hedge fund”.

    But you’re right. Their immorality is staggering and the reason you can count that I am going to do whatever I can to make Obama and his henchman Rahm as miserable as possible for the next three years. 😉

    The Reuters article was in response to your whining numb nuts – even liberal Reuters is telling you that you’re wrong and you should let the free market decide…

    I take it Elric got the boot?

  80. Elric is on twitter annoying me, though I kind of miss him being here. I liked seeing Tex and Elric’s relationship flourish, demise and then flourish again…so many ups and downs that it would have made for a good romance. Why oh, oh why must R be the stick that wedges itself in-between them…. *sigh*

  81. Well, if it isn’t for Sensico and its repetitive, puerile attempt at humor. Hey Nasty – took a gander at that gravatar once again and could smell the discharge diffuse thru the screen.

    Let me shoot straight with you for a minute. Somebody needs to tell you the truth, because you obviously don’t recognize your abundant weaknesses.

    You embarrass it yourself and are too dumb to know it. Rutherford ain’t going to tell you that out of shared libbieness, but he knows. That’s why you flit around the ‘net so much as a juvenile – you have nothing else to do because no one likes you and you can pretend to be something here you’re not.

    In addition, a nasty clam like you shouldn’t be referring to romance, unless it be about one of those novels you like to read. Don’t kid yourself – you’re the bottom rung. Stiletto Hoes with their heels stuck in her hoop earrings don’t have romance – the unfortunate partners practice coyote love. The drug addicts, deviants and AIDS type might let you smoke the pole (take a rhinoceros olfactory to get further than that), but it will be as much to shut thy mouth as it will be to get their rocks off.

    Now that we’ve got that straight… is there any other comment you wanted to leave at another attempt to explain my romance with Elric? 😈

  82. Stiletto Hoes with their heels stuck in her hoop earrings don’t have romance – the unfortunate partners practice coyote love.

    Well I once accused you of sounding like Christopher Hitchens but tonight you rather remind me of Hannibal Lecter, affecting a gentle southern lilt as you say the vilest things to our resident Clarice Starling.

    Sometimes you do worry me. One minute Hitchens, the next Lecter. 😯

  83. is there any other comment you wanted to leave at another attempt to explain my romance with Elric?

    nope, as long as you finally acknowledged it was a romance 😉

  84. Rutherford, 😆

    As almost always is the case, that post was in part to give you a snicker, though you will never admit to it.

    I danced around the ‘C’ word as much as a could without just coming right out and calling Nasty wanted I really wanted to call it.

    And I didn’t use the ‘N’ word either…except Nasty.

    That would be the ‘N’ word you asked me not to use. 😉

  85. So it seems from your character that you use the N word in real life. Well, call me as you wish and it would surely reflect more on you. I’m sure you’re one of those people that get drunk and use all type of racial slurs. You being that affected by the words I type only makes things more interesting 🙂

    When’s the next post R?

  86. Funny you should ask, Sensico, I just finished one before I go off to bed. I figured if my buddy Dead Rabbit got THAT pissed at me for comments I made in this thread, I might as well go for broke in a full article. Hope you enjoy. 😉

    Oh btw, in a very weak defense of Tex, the “N” word he had in mind was “nappy”, which if you didn’t notice I castigated him for a couple of threads ago.

  87. First off, I am a born and bred American but lived for many years as an adult in Australia & Britain, both of which have socialized healthcare systems. The simple truth is that the medical care I received in these countries was superior to what I’ve received here. What I paid from my taxes to provide that care was a 10th of what I pay here in private insurance premiums. On top of that, prescription drugs there were far cheaper and in some cases free. When I had an appointment with a doctor, they spent considerably more face time with you than they do here, in the US.
    Another point that is often made against socialized medicine, which makes me cringe in embarrassment, is the arrogant and ignorant comment, such as “what is the percentage of global medical advancement that have come from these bastions of medical utopia?” from an800lbgorilla. Well it doesn’t take much searching on the internet to see that there have been thousands of major medical breakthroughs and medical device inventions and Nobel prize winners from countries that practice socialized medicine. To name just a few of these, from Austraiia- 2 Nobel Peace prizes in medicine in the last 4 years, the bionic ear, modern braces, the vaccine against cervical cancer, the first electronic pacemaker, the first anit-flu drug. From the UK-the invention of penicillin and the smallpox vaccine, the first IVF birth and also winners of Nobels. France, Germany and Sweden are also home to Noble Peace prize winners in medicine, all are countries that have socialized healthcare.
    In Australia and Britain one can still purchase private health coverage, if you wish and there are private hospitals but the the public ones are perfectly fine-clean, modern with fantastic doctors and nurses. I visited a friend in a public hospital in Los Angeles and what a shock that was, it was like I had stepped into a third world country!
    I urge every American to do their own research on how socialized medicine works and if you know any immigrants from countries that have socialized healthcare, ask them about it, so that you can have a more informed opinion on the subject rather just regurgitating the misinformation and outright lies that the scaremongers would have you believe.

  88. Rutherford you actually made a great point in the close of this post regards too much too late etc. I do think anyone that takes the FRONTLINE presentation as an end all thing are foolosh though. EVERY system has it’s problems and the pros and cons are what they are no matter the location plus pros and cons specific to the location.
    You said a mouthful with

    I never dreamed I’d say this but maybe we do need the current health care reform to fail so we can start over and use the triumphs of other countries as our guide?

  89. Nerissa, thank so much for visiting the blog. Your account does not surprise me. One of the reasons I so enjoyed the Frontline documentary was that I got some real insight into how things really work in these countries, the good and the bad, without the ignorant generalizations.

    I am curious about one thing, and I hope you return to the blog to answer this. How did you find delays in service, particularly in the UK? One of the big fears here in the US is not being able to get timely care, Also, what was your experience with “rationing”?

    As an aside to Alfie …. c’mon, comment 112 was the best you could do? If you’ve lived in a foreign country that has some degree of socialized medicine, please share your experience so I can understand why you find Nerissa so funny.

  90. In response to your queries, Rutherford, regarding timely care and rationing, in my and my husband’s experiences in the UK, Australia and New Zealand(where my husband is from) we never had any kind of delay in seeing a doctor or specialist when needed. In fact I’ve had longer waits in America to get in to see a specialist. While in Australia I was having trouble with my knee due to an old injury so my GP sent me to see an orthopedic surgeon, no long wait there and then I was scheduled for surgery with only a 2 month wait. Bear in mind this wasn’t a debilitating issue, I was still able to walk freely, I was just having some minor aches and swelling so it wasn’t a priority surgery.
    Concerning rationing, I will quote Prof. SINGER, a bioethicist in an NPR interview on this issue “Yes, that’s the sad reality when you have limited resources and medical care, medical technology, that could be virtually unlimited in costs. But it’s not a new proposal to say that we must ration health care because we already do ration health care. We already deny health care to tens of millions of people, and in fact, even those who have insurance can’t get everything possible. So the question is really not should we ration health care, but how shall we do it best and most sensibly so that we get the best value for the money we spend.” Anytime an insurance company limits your choice of doctors, limits your choice of medications or denies a particular treatment, that’s “rationing”. Personally I never experienced “rationing” in the UK or Australia but that’s not to say it doesn’t exist and until money starts growing on trees you can’t run any sort of healthcare system(private or socialized) without some sort of rationing in place. I have experienced it in the US though: I suffer from seasonal allergies and had tried various meds until I found one prescription that worked but within a few months, my insurance informed me that they would no longer be covering that particular med and suggested an alternative which I had already tried and had found it had had no effect on my allergies. This is an obvious case of rationing.
    Nerissa’s husband here. One of the biggest benefits of a social medicine option, which is greatly underrated, is simple peace of mind. You will never be bankrupted because of a medical bill. You will always be able to get surgery because the cost is covered by your taxes already. People in America are already paying more for health care than in New Zealand. Americans pay more than any other country in the world as a % of GDP. Currently over 15%. New Zealand’s % of GDP is 10%, & we have full coverage! In Britain, the birth control pill is free. Another point to be aware of is that the USA has some of the worst health statistics of any rich country. Shorter life span, more heart disease, more infant mortality. The list is quite long. Americans cloud the real issue of the benefits of a social medicine option, with their God given right to have what they want, when they want it, 24/7. But the stats don’t add up in regards to being healthier.

  91. Rutherford how many Americans have won the Nobel for medicine.(its not the peace prize btw)
    Penicillin predates NHS creation.
    Union doctors going on strike.
    Ownership of hospitals not on the table in the USA so its apples and oranges at best
    Britain: NHS is a butt of jokes as much as a cherished thing. Very postal code dependent just like anywhere. I can appreciate the avoidance of bankruptcy part,even applaud it. Thats not actually in the 2000 page piece of shit on Harrys desk.
    As for lifestyles that’s a different conversation but I think a more than credible case can be made that it has nothing to do with healthcare access or use.

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