Health Care Reform: Our Declaration of Independence Demands It

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Thomas Jefferson’s words kick started this great experiment we call the United States of America. Our country is founded on the notion that we have a right to live.  Tonight I watched MSNBC’s “Countdown with Keith Olbermann” in which he devoted the entire hour to a “special comment” on the health care debate raging right now in our country. He presented the issue in stark and easy to understand terms. We are talking about life and death.

The truth is that Barack Obama has made a mistake. He has framed the health care debate in dollars and cents. Reform will lower our deficit. Baloney. Maybe reform, done properly, will lower costs down the line but that is NOT the reason to pursue health care reform. This is a moral issue.  By focusing on finances we obscure the fact that it is morally criminal to let people die because they cannot afford to get well. Quite frankly if we double the deficit, so what? Isn’t it time that we stepped up and ensured people their unalienable right to live?

A close friend made an observation tonight that really resonated with me. She asked about our military spending. She pointed out Conservative’s eagerness to throw more money and more bodies into Afghanistan. Why do we fight wars? Ultimately, we fight wars because we do not want to die. We fight wars to preserve life in America as we know it. Yet these same hawks do not want to spend a dime of government money to fight the enemy right here at home, namely disease.

Near the end of Keith Olbermann’s impassioned plea for empathy among his fellow Americans, he told a heart breaking story. On the way out of the hospital visiting his father, he ran into an old childhood friend whom he had not seen in some time. The friend said that his daughter was in ICU with a case of Lyme disease that had gone from bad to worse. He would now have to sell his farm to pay her medical bills. Olbermann contrasted that with his own case where he could afford the best medicine money could buy for his father. This brought to the fore a question plain as day. What is wrong with a country that decides who lives or dies based on one’s position in society? That is India with its caste system. That is not America.

There is a small amount of momentum building toward changing this shameful state of the American health care system. We can only hope that the momentum continues to grow and that our politicians forget about the deep pockets of the insurance industry and do what is right for our country.

Liberty and the pursuit of happiness may be lofty goals but is it too much to ask that we just get a chance to stay alive?

Respectfully,
Rutherford

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126 thoughts on “Health Care Reform: Our Declaration of Independence Demands It

  1. Hard to swallow that Keith Overbite, a vicious and pathetic human being, resonates with anybody.

    A close friend made an observation tonight that really resonated with me. She asked about our military spending. She pointed out Conservative’s eagerness to throw more money and more bodies into Afghanistan. Why do we fight wars? Ultimately, we fight wars because we do not want to die. We fight wars to preserve life in America as we know it. Yet these same hawks do not want to spend a dime of government money to fight the enemy right here at home, namely disease.

    Your friend is as shallow as you are. Conservatives eagerness to “throw” more money and bodies into Afghanistan? Seems to me that the libs are now in charge and doing very, very poorly of managing the war, the economy, and the mood of the nation. They honestly could have not done much worse if they had tried.

    Health care is not a right Rutherford, anymore than being wealthy is a right. Assuming we haven’t already ruined the country with deficit, your plan would surely bring an end to America – without an economic engine, all of us would be lucky to survive. Your asking us to finance our child’s lives for your benefit. Hopefully, this will be the final straw, the Dems will ram this through, and the people will finally revolt.

    Your writing gets more confused by the day. There are so many things wrong with your friend’s analogy, I don’t know where to start, so I’ll hold my water for a time as the thread progresses.

  2. But the document you’ve quoted doesn’t make distinctions for medical reasons.

    So you are OK with violating the rights of 1 in order to preserve that same right for another?

    (See how this foolish arguement traps you?)

    I have to go to class, so I will pick the rest of this apart later.

  3. Seems to me that the libs are now in charge and doing very, very poorly of managing the war, the economy, and the mood of the nation.

    The war was a disaster when Obama came into office. That’s because we wasted multiple years in Iraq but let’s not go there again.

    As for the mood of the country, the country is getting weary of this war, a war that is on the verge of overshadowing Vietnam in length of commitment.

    But all that is beside the point. I’m not suggesting we abandon the war in favor of health care. I’m saying we can do both.

  4. Health care is not a right Rutherford, anymore than being wealthy is a right.

    This Tex is exactly what is wrong with the debate. Critical health care and wealth should NOT be connected.

  5. Great let’s just deflect from the point of health care and go off on another conservative tangent over abortion.

    Can’t anybody here every stay on topic?

    Here comes Stooge to post more weazelzipper video of the evil Muslims….oh joy!!!!

    5..4..3..2..1

  6. But the document you’ve quoted doesn’t make distinctions for medical reasons.

    In 1776 Thomas Jefferson in his wildest imagination could not have dreamed of the medical moral dilemmas of modern America. So I find that observation beside the point.

    As for whose rights are violated, that gets us back into the definition of what is a viable life.

  7. Can’t anybody here every stay on topic?

    The problem Curator is when health care is framed as a moral issue, conservatives have no ammo. It renders them speechless and all they can do is distract with tangential issues.

  8. So let me see if I get your proposal right, Rutherford.

    Before I do, let me remind you that BOMBA, not Bush, has now tripled the federal deficit – this has happened almost exclusively under his watch courtesy of the CBO so there is no excuse this time. You’re in control – your man charges like a Playboy Bunny with a charge card at the mansion, and has done so when he should have been cutting to the bone.

    So, you’re solution is to multiply the deficit by a factor of 2-4, depending on who you believe? Then you tell us this is the proper thing to do? You may think that, but most people disagree with you. Many of us are concerned not as much about health care, but the when as to when the house of cards starts blowing in the wind. So you tell me what is so wonderfully moral about your position Rutherford? Your position is nonsense and nonsense doesn’t equate to morality. Your morality heads down the same road of good intentions.

    Truth be known, you’re in favor not because of your piety but because you want a freebie. Wally is a state employee in a dead end job and he’s looking for a freebie too in order to accommodate his low salary. Like the GM/UAW man, you and Wally have no concept of finance, economics, sense, or morality. You’re digging in the cookie jar for some crumbs and could care less about the kids standing beside you waiting for their cookie. 👿

  9. Refresh my memory Rutherford. I don’t remember hearing about us losing the Afghan War while Bush was in charge. Did you hear this from K. Overbite taken as gospel?

    I told you BOMBA was a bum and in over his head.

    P.S. – tell BOMBA to take a clue from Bush, who happened to lead the win in the “unwinnable” war.

  10. Truth be known, you’re in favor not because of your piety but because you want a freebie.

    Guess what? Like you, I’m pretty happy with my current health insurance. You know what else? Unlike you, I know it can disappear in a minute’s notice. The system is broken and needs fixing.

  11. Wally is a state employee in a dead end job and he’s looking for a freebie too in order to accommodate his low salary.

    My family get’s it’s health care from the government (military Tricare). I think it’s called “Serving your Country”.

    Something you wingnuts always get deferments for cause you had other priorities.

  12. I don’t remember hearing about us losing the Afghan War while Bush was in charge.

    So you’re saying we were winning the Afghan war until Obama came on board? Please don’t insult the intellect of the folks here with that BS. Shame on the media … they spent most of their time reporting on the war we shouldn’t have been fighting instead of the war that was going in the toilet.

    This is what our 8 years in Afghanistan has gotten us so far (methinks this really belongs in the prior thread):

    1. Osama is still alive
    2. Al qaeda has run to a country (our ally :eek:) that won’t do anything to stop them
    3. We’ve replaced the Taliban with a corrupt government that is now being overshadowed again by …. the Taliban

    Oh yes …. that all happened since January 20. Give me a break.

    20/20 hindsight:
    1. Ignore the boasting of Saddam … he was a clown.
    2. Crush al qaeda in Afghanistan and if they flee elsewhere, follow them and crush them there (Bush doctrine, remember?)

  13. My family get’s it’s health care from the government (military Tricare). I think it’s called “Serving your Country”.

    Something you wingnuts always get deferments for cause you had other priorities.

    Ouch, that was good.

    More to the point, Curator, are you “happy” with your “government run health care”? I’d wager you are or you would’ve complained by now in this forum.

  14. … this has happened almost exclusively under his watch courtesy of the CBO so there is no excuse this time. You’re in control – your man charges like a Playboy Bunny with a charge card at the mansion, and has done so when he should have been cutting to the bone.

    Yeah…right… we should have frozen federal spending like the House Republican leaders wanted to back in February. If we followed that bad advice we would have sent the economy into a meltdown. Freezing spending in the face of a severe recession? REALLY!!

  15. I’ve never had ANY issues with my “socialist” government-run health care plan. I’ll let you know how much our premiums end up being, when my wife retires from active duty in a couple weeks.

  16. So basically you are saying the government should provide us with everything.

    I’m not saying it. That is your GOPher talking point. How’s that working for ya?

  17. “I’m not saying it. That is your GOPher talking point. How’s that working for ya?”

    Working pretty well since you cant answer the question. 🙂

  18. Working pretty well since you cant answer the question.

    So why do you think the government should “provide us with everything”?

    There was not a question to be answered, only your foolish attempt to put words in my mouth and deflect the discussion.

    Hey, look over there…a shiny thing!

  19. “Warning…Distraction Troll attempts to distract, without making a point.”

    Point is it isnt the governments job to be a nanny.

    “Still with the ACORN crap. Your fake pimp and hooker story is providing you with a lot of mileage for your “outrage” meter.”

    So why are we funding them, especially during a recession? Cant answer that either?

  20. Speechwriter for Obama, Edwards can’t get health insurance in Massachusetts
    posted at 2:55 pm on October 8, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
    Share on Facebook | printer-friendly

    For ObamaCare advocates, Massachusetts is the Nirvana of government-managed health insurance. The state adopted everything they have pushed on a national level: individual mandates, guaranteed issue, universal coverage, and more. Unfortunately, former Obama and John Edwards speechwriter Wendy Button has discovered that all of this government intervention comes at a cost — one that directly hits her pocketbook:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/10/08/speechwriter-for-obama-edwards-cant-get-health-insurance-in-massachusetts/

    LOL

  21. http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/1009/Boehner_Pence_voting_against_defense_bill_.html?showall

    House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) and House GOP Conference Chairman Mike Pence (R-Ind.) are voting against the House/Senate fiscal year 2010 defense authorization bill.

    During a time of war!!!!!

    Why don’t Republicans support our brave troops?

    During Bush’s years Boehner says “[T]here is a clear distinction between saying you support the troops and backing up those claims with genuine action.”, but now under Obama and a Democratic defense authorization bill, he now wants to withhold funds.

    Hey Stooge where is the outrage?

    …oh yeah ACORN…Look over there something shiny!!

  22. “House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) and House GOP Conference Chairman Mike Pence (R-Ind.) are voting against the House/Senate fiscal year 2010 defense authorization bill — because it contains hate crimes provisions designed to protect gays and lesbians.”

    Put it in context jackass. More like, why are the demomarxists playing politics with our troops?

  23. “So you think government supplied health care to military veterans is nanny care?”

    No. Its a reward for service to the country. When the government does it for everyone, its a nanny state.

  24. damn…that alot of years of service by the Curator family!

    I served 4. I remember thinking the 4 years was an eternity. I guess when your 17, time is relative.

    I remember it only took two years for me to slightly forget what the faces of my friends and family looked like.

    Now, 4 years is nothing. A drop in the hat. Weird.

  25. True.. 4 years goes by pretty damn quick. I guess you could say in peace time it goes by quickly, but in war time it seems to crawl at a snails pace, but I would not know what war time feels like. I’ve never really been on any “front line”. In 90-91 Dhahran SA was far enough away from Iraq that we felt relatively safe.

  26. Pelosi wants “windfall profits tax” on insurance companies
    posted at 4:05 pm on October 8, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
    Share on Facebook | printer-friendly

    What constitutes a “windfall” in an industry that averages a paltry 3.3% profit margin — free donuts on Fridays? Whatever it is, or rather whatever it is after Congress pounds insurers and providers with previously-proposed excise fees and taxes, Nancy Pelosi and her colleagues want it:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/10/08/pelosi-wants-windfall-profits-tax-on-insurance-companies/

    You know what a real wind fall profit is? Taxes

  27. Pew: Plurality opposes ObamaCare proposals by 13 points
    posted at 3:35 pm on October 8, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

    This seems significant, both for the sample type and its composition, in showing a large plurality of opposition to ObamaCare proposals in Congress. Pew Research surveyed 1500 adults last week and found that 47% oppose the efforts to overhaul the American health-care system, while only 34% approve. That sample included a 11-point split favoring Democrats over Republicans, 34%-23%, with 37% independents:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/10/08/pew-plurality-opposes-obamacare-proposals-by-13-points/

    Waterloo 🙂

  28. Iran: First opposition protester sentenced to death

    Tehran, 8 October (AKI) – Iranian authorities this week sentenced monarchist Mohammad Reza Ali-Zamani to death for his role in the unrest following the contested 12 June election, reformist website Mowjcamp reported on Wednesday. He is the first person to face execution for his role in the protests against alleged fraud that returned hardline president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to power in the presidential poll.

    There has been no official confirmation of the verdict.

    Ali-Zamani had confessed to plotting against Iran’s Islamic system and belonging to the previously little-known Iran Monarchy Committee (IMC), which the theocratic Iranian government regards as a terrorist group.

    Ali-Zamani’s indictment accused him of meeting United States military figures in Iraq on behalf of the IMC before returning to Iran “to cause disruption during and after the election”.

    He confessed to distributing CDs of “anti-religious and political books” including Salman Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses.

    His defence says he was forced into his confession, which was made at a public trial of prominent political activists in August.

    More than 100 opposition supporters arrested in the post-election upheaval are still in custody. They include prominent supporters of the defeated reformist candidates Mir Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi, both of whom insist the election was rigged.

    http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Politics/?id=3.0.3855290098

    Arent you glad Thuggy dissed Honduras for this rouge regime?

  29. Speechwriter for Obama, Edwards can’t get health insurance in Massachusetts

    Sadly, Hotair, like WZ takes a story and then recreates their own story around it. The speechwriter is still an advocate for health care reform even though she is unhappy wiith the Massachusetts solution. What she says does not mean we should scrap health care reform.

  30. because it contains hate crimes provisions designed to protect gays and lesbians.

    Ahhh, well that perfectly explains Boehner’s objections. Wouldn’t want to protect gays and lesbians now would we.

    And you have the balls to call Curator a jackass.

  31. I’ve never really been on any “front line”.

    Thanks for your honesty Curator but be careful. You’ve just given Tex ammo to suggest your service is somehow less patriotic than Gorilla’s.

    By the way, Gorilla has been the lone “professional” voice on the Afghanistan conflict. Even though that is the previous thread, I’d welcome your thoughts on the matter. I know in asking this I risk your complete agreement with Gorilla that I an arrogant sanctimonious civilian coward. I’m willing to chance it.

  32. “Ahhh, well that perfectly explains Boehner’s objections. Wouldn’t want to protect gays and lesbians now would we.”

    And how do Orwellian hate crime laws protect gays and lesbians? And what the hell is it doing in a defense bill?

  33. “Pew if I’m not mistaken skews conservative most of the time. ”

    Yeah you are mistaken

    That sample included a 11-point split favoring Democrats over Republicans, 34%-23%, with 37% independents:

    Wouldnt be the first time.

  34. “The speechwriter is still an advocate for health care reform even though she is unhappy wiith the Massachusetts solution.”

    LOL And ThuggyCare will be better?

  35. Hope #46 wasnt too tough for you to dodger there Dodger? I know how you love to avoid my rebuttals when you actually do answer once in a blue moon.

  36. Rep. Bachmann: Federal Funding of ACORN Is Set to Resume at Month’s End

    I think at the stroke of midnight on Halloween, Bachmann will turn into a little bunny rabbit … since she is indeed a dumb bunny.

    When Bachmann speaks, sane people stop listening.

  37. ” I think at the stroke of midnight on Halloween, Bachmann will turn into a little bunny rabbit … since she is indeed a dumb bunny.

    When Bachmann speaks, sane people stop listening.”

    Really? You have inside information that they wont resume funding ACORN?

  38. “Regarding 49, what makes a particular hate-crime bill Orwellian?”

    Why dont you answer my questions first? How does it protect gays and lesbians and whats it doing in a defense bill?

    Answer that and Ill answer yours. Thats how debates go Dodger. Or concede that it doesnt protect gays and lesbians and it had no reason to be in a defense bill. Choose Dodger. Stop voting present like your messiah.

  39. Obama: Taliban can be in Afghan Politics

    While our brave troops are fighting the Taliban thugs with one hand tied behind their back. Islam loving Obama, is willing to allow the Taliban to be involved in the future political landscape of Afghanistan. How our great troops are treated is beyond disgraceful!!!!!

    Obama focusing on al-Qaida, not Taliban
    By JENNIFER LOVEN, AP White House Correspondent

    WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama is prepared to accept some Taliban involvement in Afghanistan’s political future and appears inclined to send only as many more U.S. troops to Afghanistan as are needed to keep al-Qaida at bay, a senior administration official said Thursday.

    http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2009/10/obama-taliban-can-be-in-afghan-politics.html

    I agree. This POS is an even worse Obamination than I thought.

  40. “I think at the stroke of midnight on Halloween, Bachmann will turn into a little bunny rabbit … since she is indeed a dumb bunny.”

    I resent that.

  41. I’m am so utterly sick of rat bastard Congress sneaking shit into defense bills. I swear that’s the lowest of the low. To use the safety of the troops as blackmail to push through obvious partisan shit absolutely revolts me.

    The left seems to do this more then the right too. Bull shit.

  42. DR,

    Amen to that. Thats what it is blackmail and has no place especially in a defense bill while our soldiers are getting killed because Thuggy is a cowardly POS.

  43. New White House spin: Taliban not really an enemy, has role in Afghanistan’s future
    posted at 5:14 pm on October 8, 2009 by Allahpundit

    No foolin’. They’re looking for any way they can to avoid giving McChrystal the troops he says he needs to secure the country, so they’ve come up with a way out. If the people we’ve been fighting for eight years aren’t the enemy, then the country no longer needs to be secured from them, does it?

    If you thought troop morale was low now, wait.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/10/08/new-white-house-spin-taliban-not-really-an-enemy-has-role-in-afghanistans-future/

    Wonder what Dodger and Jerkator think of our beta dog “president” now.

  44. And how do Orwellian hate crime laws protect gays and lesbians?

    Gays and lesbians deserve the same protection against hate crimes as minorities and religious sects do. The protection is by deterrence. When someone’s punishment is increased based on the “hate-crime” factor, one can only hope that others will put their nasty urges in check.

    As for it being in a defense bill … to both you and Rabbit, this tactic is SOP. How do you guys feel about the line item veto? That would put a stop to this kind of thing immediately. (Although I admit, to his credit, Obama would be unlikely to veto that particular line item.)

  45. Despite the fact that I’ve been schooled in the area of “no moderate” Taliban, one cannot deny they are a political force to be reckoned with. In Iraq, the way to some semblance of peace was getting some cooperation from Sunni and Shia, no? Hence, I think one element (not the only one) of getting stability in Afghanistan is to see if there is anyone in the Taliban that can be reasoned with.

    Even with this said, the Taliban are Karzai’s problem, not ours. Chris “Tingle” Matthews made an interesting point a day or so ago. He said, let’s pull back a bit, wait for al Qaeda to return to Afghanistan, and then shoot them off one by one as they cross the border. In Afghanistan, we can kill as many al Qaeda as we want. In Pakistan, we can’t apparently do jack-sh*t.

  46. “The protection is by deterrence. When someone’s punishment is increased based on the “hate-crime” factor, one can only hope that others will put their nasty urges in check.”

    Right. And who are the mind readers that says its a “hate crime”. What constitutes a “hate crime”. How do you prove it? Why do only “minorities” and “religious sects” get special consideration? Why not just raise the punishment for violent crimes and stop with the Orwellian ascpet of it?

    “As for it being in a defense bill … to both you and Rabbit, this tactic is SOP.”

    What the hell is SOP?

  47. “Hence, I think one element (not the only one) of getting stability in Afghanistan is to see if there is anyone in the Taliban that can be reasoned with.”

    LOL You must be kidding. Is this your excuse for Thuggy being a liar and a coward?

  48. “Even with this said, the Taliban are Karzai’s problem, not ours.”

    All jihadists are our problem. You think because they have different names it makes one group of jihadists more reasonable than others?

  49. What the hell is SOP?

    I’ll save your lazy ass from googling it.

    Standard Operating Procedure

    The fact you didn’t even try to google it makes me fear I really have been talking to a sophisticated bot all this time. Whoever programmed you did a decent job for a first release. Can’t wait to see Elric66 2.0 🙂

  50. America, You’ve Been Punk’d
    By Pedro Primavera

    It’s okay to admit it: you thought you were voting for a more benevolent and wiser version of Tiger Woods when all you got was a smoother version of Chicago-style, brass knuckle politics. It isn’t so much that you voted for the wrong guy; you were lied to by the media.

    But you should have known better. Chicago has a long and storied run of thoroughly corrupt political bosses giving envy to any third-world dictator. Barack Obama also ran around with loony-tune communists and wild-eyed radicals including his pastor, Jeremiah Wright, who makes the loosest of cannons seem laser-guided. Then he tells us absolutely nothing about himself other than what is in his — not one but two — autobiographies.

    If you scratch below the surface — not too hard since there isn’t much there — you find a different human being, one entirely at variance with what you find in the media or his autobiographies. It is a man driven not to overcoming obstacles but stuck on them, still living in his past. The case of Barack Obama is one of a deep, deep inferiority complex from his childhood and he just seems unable to rise from it.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/america_youve_been_punkd.html

    I wasnt, I knew what he was

  51. It’s okay to admit it: you thought you were voting for a more benevolent and wiser version of Tiger Woods

    Why not a more benevolent and wiser version of Phil Mickelson? Guess they all look the same to Pedro.

  52. So since its “Standard Operating Procedure” it makes it ok to blackmail while our troops are dying?

    Answer my question conservadrone. Do you favor the line item veto? Google it if you don’t know what it is.

  53. Back to Sweden again. I love how they start off with “youths”. “Youth” is the Eurabian code word for muslim. Check out the utopia of multiculturalism. Drones welcome to defend the “youths”

  54. “Why not a more benevolent and wiser version of Phil Mickelson? Guess they all look the same to Pedro.”

    Better to pick a biracial or multiracial celebrity. If thats your only criticism, I guess you agree with his analysis 🙂

    “Answer my question conservadrone. Do you favor the line item veto? Google it if you don’t know what it is.”

    Ohhhh Dodger demanding answers, how ironic LOL I support defense bills to be defense bills only when voted on. I dont support playing politics with it when troops are dying.

  55. Video: CBS’s Afghan correspondent tears Obama’s Taliban strategy to shreds
    posted at 6:47 pm on October 8, 2009 by Allahpundit
    Share on Facebook | printer-friendly

    Skip ahead to 5:35 if you can’t stand waiting and stick with it for three minutes. Simply brutal, especially coming from Logan, who was on the ground over there within two months of 9/11. One thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post but which Omri Ceren remembered: Today’s White House nuance about the “real enemy” is practically a direct response to the Taliban’s latest propaganda about what peaceful, law-abiding people they really are.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/10/08/video-cbss-afghan-correspondent-tears-obamas-taliban-strategy-to-shreds/

    In all honesty anyone who still supports this POS really ought to be ashamed.

  56. Wally,

    Yeah…right… we should have frozen federal spending like the House Republican leaders wanted to back in February. If we followed that bad advice we would have sent the economy into a meltdown. Freezing spending in the face of a severe recession? REALLY!!

    😆

    What the hell would a lowly state Powerpoint creator know about macroeconomics? Which board did you steal that little jewel from? KKKos, PuffHo? You’re the kind of ignorant slacker that will personally run the credit card bill up to about $30K, then bitch about the rates while they repossess your car.

    What is it that you don’t understand Wally about (1) the government can’t find their butt with both hands, (2) when you spend more than you make eventually the bucket runs dry?

    Though you’re too ignorant to realize this, when your struggling or in a tight economy, you immediately do two things both micro and macro. You cut expenses and control your costs to lower your prices to increase your output. BOMBA’s stimulus package doesn’t create anything but a handout. You show me where we’ve created wealth creating long-term jobs Wally? You can’t and you won’t.

    No wonder you’re a frickin’ state employee with the cubicle beside the bathroom.

  57. Tex,

    Now we have Thuggy getting al chummy with the Taliban. Whats it going to take for the drones to see Thuggy IS the enemy of the state? We wasting our time with these morons?

  58. Back to Sweden again. I love how they start off with “youths”.

    OK, so what is to be done here. Deport them from Sweden? Deport them from US. Before you know it, they will want a “homeland” like the Jewish people because they have been driven out of every “civilized” country.

    Should there be a homeland for them, Elric?

  59. You cut expenses and control your costs to lower your prices to increase your output.

    Tex, could our resident economist please explain this sentence since it makes no sense to me. In what fantasy world does cutting expenses and costs result in increased output?

  60. Thuggy IS the enemy of the state

    Yup, Elric, the President of the United States is the real enemy.

    There is a rubber room waiting for you somewhere. Please go find it. Don’t worry, we’ll still be here when you get out and you can show us you’ve recovered.

  61. BTW, Tex … I understand most of your insults but could you clue me in as to why you call Curator, Wally? The only connection I can make from pop culture is Wally Cleaver of “Leave it to Beaver” and quite honestly between Wally and the “Beav”, Wally had a lot more going on in the head.

    If you really wanted to insult him, you’d call him Eddie Haskell. Then again, that one is more like Elric. 😀

  62. From Elric’s CBS video:

    “Still, if you want to turn the country of the proud and pious Afghans into a colony, then know that we have an unwavering determination and have braced for a prolonged war.”

    Now we’re talking!!! Let’s abandon this farce of a government led by Karzai. Let’s declare Afghanistan a colony (or territory to be more PC) of the United States, install an American “Governor” there with a full compliment of American gov’t officials and then send in enough troops to keep them completely under our thumb.

    Now THAT’S an idea! How do you like that plan Elric?

  63. Tex must not understand that cash flow and consumption is what consumer based economies depend on for stability and strength. You can make the argument that government spending is the antithesis of a consumer based economy, however without consumer spending for fear of their jobs, without corporate spending for frozen lined of credit with the banks, who other than the government, had the ability to pump money into the economy?

    Why do Republicans push for spending freezes, yet continue to propose tax cuts which would reduce revenue? Wingnuts must believe in spending money when a Republican is in the White House.

  64. “Why do Republicans push for spending freezes, yet continue to propose tax cuts which would reduce revenue?”

    Tax cuts have, on many occasions, increased revenue. I know you know that. You don’t need me to explain how.

  65. Cooperation Rises between Iran and Taliban
    As Tensions with United States Escalate, Iran Supplying the Taliban with Money, Weapons to Fuel Fight

    By Lara Logan

    (CBS) The ancient city of Herat is Afghanistan’s best-kept secret.

    For years, it has enjoyed 24-hour electricity and a booming economy, reports CBS News chief foreign affairs correspondent Lara Logan.

    But it’s not thanks to U.S. efforts – it’s all because of Iran.

    The city lies right on Afghanistan’s border with Iran, fueling strong economic ties. But lately Iran’s been making a different kind-of investment – one increasingly worrying to the United States: it’s backing the Taliban.

    A soldier from 7th Group Special Forces finds rocket propelled grenades in a hard-core Taliban village that he knows from experience, are made in Iran.

    “Like right here, it says 82 mm “h-e” lot 02 slash 87,” the solider said. “The Iranians pretty much copy all of our ordinance, pretty much verbatim. They’ll even put English writing on there. But these lot numbers you’ll never see a U.S. lot number like that.”

    The find confirms what U.S. commanders and troops in Afghanistan are seeing more often – a rise in the level of cooperation between Iran and the Taliban.

    “I think Iran feels threatened,” said David Kilcullen, a counterinsurgency expert. “And I think it feels that its interests are best served by being able to hurt the United States in Afghanistan.”

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/07/eveningnews/main5370148.shtml

    And the traitor Thuggy wants to hand it over to the Taliban and Iran. Yes Dodger, Thuggy is an enemy of the state.

  66. Video: Candidate Obama knocks Musharraf for … signing peace treaties with the Taliban
    posted at 9:40 pm on October 8, 2009 by Allahpundit

    More flashback fun via Omri Ceren, remembering the days when the Taliban were an intractable jihadist opponent rather than the plucky band of Afghan patriots we’ve come to know and respect. I’m sure there are dozens more gold nuggets like this buried in the YouTube mines in case anyone wants to go digging. The comic prospect of watching Gibbs try to explain them away, perhaps by distinguishing the “bad” Pakistani Taliban from the “good” Afghan Taliban, should more than compensate you for your labor.

    To meditate on while you watch, a new poll from Gallup/USA Today finds that 48 percent want more troops in Afghanistan, 38 percent want fewer troops, and just seven percent want to keep the number as is — which of course is what the Obama plan is shaping up to be. It’s one thing to lose men when you’re trying to win the war, it’s another to lose the war but save Americans’ lives in withdrawing, but it’s something else entirely to keep men in the line of fire with no hope of victory. And yet, here we are. Do note the partisan breakdown at the link, too. If Obama decides to follow McChrystal’s advice he’ll have the support of just 36 percent of Democrats — and 73 percent of Republicans. Remember that the next time a liberal comes crying to you about the GOP reflexively opposing everything The One does.

  67. Rabbit,

    Perhaps Wally can offer his hypothesis as to why he believes small and large corporations are going to hire more people when their marginal tax rates were increased substantially? Perhaps Wally hasn’t noticed that the unemployment rate has increased 2% since BOMBA’s implementation of the stimulus, yet our debt has increased by 300%? Perhaps Wally will explain to all of us where are this job creation? Perhaps Wally can theorize why the value of the dollar has dropped precipitously under BOMBA’s watch?

    First, Wally must be convinced that government is efficient, which anyone of sound mind realizes is utter stupidity. Second, Wally should have realized by now (but still doesn’t) that if increasing taxes held the secret to maximizing revenue, BOMBA would have never offered up his “huge” middle class tax cut, and in fact would have increased taxes dramatically. Even BOMBA is smarter than Wally.

    As Wally attempts to patronizes us with his “economic brilliance”, he seems to think robbing productive Peter to pay pillaging Paul creates jobs and growth. Wally is a state employee – he is sure that he provides real utility to the health of this nation, not realizing he is simply a benefactor of people who create real wealth. This the dog biting the hand that feeds him.

    It’s a common malady amongst leeches from the left, even if Wally doesn’t recognize his illiterate economic nature. 😉

  68. Rutherford,

    Wally Curator is named after the mooching, lazy ass Wally of Dilbert fame – coffee cup included for the state “programming” desk. Incapable and not worth a plug nickel, but still worthy of humor.

    Did you not read of his fabulous skill sets of which Wally openly bragged about, before being knocked down. Of his major certifications and major awards?

    Mind numbing stuff!

  69. Rutherford,

    Consider this in depth analysis from Wally:

    Tex must not understand that cash flow and consumption is what consumer based economies depend on for stability and strength.

    Followed by the suggestion that government reallocation of wealth and the printing of more money brings stability and strength, I guess. So what Wally needs to prove to us is that gov’t does it better. But he hasn’t figured that out yet. He’ll get back with us. 😉

  70. Now I’m no Andrew Ross Sorkin but at least one thing Curator says makes sense and I haven’t seen you refute it. If consumers will not spend and businesses will not spend how does money get into the system? Who is left to do the spending but the government?

  71. I’m really just posting here to keep up with the discussion. but I find is really typical that when you bring up health care theres always a conservative ready to go on and on about abortion.

    I think with polls showing conservative/republicans are at the same place they were since the election and Obama bouncing back in the polls conservatives haven’t made much gains. In fact most Americans already view healthcare as a moral issue. How many times do we have to hear a sap story on the news about someone having issues because they couldn’t afford insurance. Focusing on cost is important and people want to talk about it. billions over the span of ten years is not bad considering how much we paid for war and borrowed from other countries.

  72. Curator: “Great let’s just deflect from the point of health care and go off on another conservative tangent over abortion.”

    Rutherford: “The problem Curator is when health care is framed as a moral issue, conservatives have no ammo. It renders them speechless and all they can do is distract with tangential issues.”

    Sensico: “I’m really just posting here to keep up with the discussion. but I find is really typical that when you bring up health care theres always a conservative ready to go on and on about abortion.”

    Do you 3 mean to tell me that you are unable to see the direct connection between this statement…

    “…but is it too much to ask that we just get a chance to stay alive?”

    …and the issue of abortion? I find that hard to believe (except of Sensico).

    I am 100% pro-choice (so again, spare your assumptions about my ideologies, Sensico. I told you I am not a social conservative.). But that doesn’t mean I ignore the facts of what abortion is. It is making a conscious decision to willingly ending a life. I know it, you know it, and Barack Obama knows it. So don’t try and sing this sad song about “can’t we all just be allowed to live?” while you endorse life being willingly taken through abortion.

    Rutherford: “In 1776 Thomas Jefferson in his wildest imagination could not have dreamed of the medical moral dilemmas of modern America. So I find that observation beside the point.”

    I find the arguement about what the Framers envisioned for the future to be irrellevant to your arguement. You are citing a document and being selective about which parts you apply an ultra-literal interpetation to it because Keith Olberman got your panties wet last night.

    You’ve used the literal wording as the basis for your entire arguement. Author imagination or individual perspective have no place in that arguement.

    Rutherford: “Crush al qaeda in Afghanistan and if they flee elsewhere, follow them and crush them there (Bush doctrine, remember?)”

    So you are going to pick and choose which parts of the Bush Doctrine you want to follow?

    Bush also said that any country found to have been harboring those terrorists would be in for trouble. That country was Afghanistan. And it was being run by Obama’s new moderate friends who are known as the Taliban.

    Did you already forget his speech I quoted in the last thread?

    The Taliban were murdering people in the street for not adhering to their brand of Islam. While that may not be a direct threat to America, it certainly is a threat to the people of Afghanistan. Counter-insurgency tactics won’t work until the people are made to feel safe.

    I don’t think giving up land to the Taliban is going to make them feel all warm inside.

    Curator: “Yeah…right… we should have frozen federal spending like the House Republican leaders wanted to back in February. If we followed that bad advice we would have sent the economy into a meltdown. Freezing spending in the face of a severe recession? REALLY!!”

    This statement is unprovable, since a negative cannot be proven.

    What can be proven, however, is that the record-setting spending done thus far by this administration has been absolutely fruitless, unless you are learning economics from Joe Biden.

    “…when my wife retires from active duty in a couple weeks.”

    Congrats on that. I’ve known you long enough to know what a load off your mind that must be.

    “Why do Republicans push for spending freezes, yet continue to propose tax cuts which would reduce revenue?”

    Art Laffer and the Congressional Budget Office disagree.

    Sensico: ” In fact most Americans already view healthcare as a moral issue.”

    Got a link to support that “fact”?

  73. “Mmmmm, Elric no response to 86 yet. How ’bout colonization Elric?”

    No one said anything about colonizing moron. But funny you dont have a thing to say about Thuggy wanting to be hands off with his new friends the Taliban despite that Iran is arming them. Jerkoff

  74. If consumers will not spend and businesses will not spend how does money get into the system? Who is left to do the spending but the government?

    Why is libs spout off in generalities, as if in October 2007 the American consumer suddenly quit spending, and businesses stopped production?

    Have any of you normal folk that don’t speak liberalese been out to a WalMart, Target or the mall lately? If so, are they now empty and I was hallucinating about the registers still ringin?

    Using Wally and Rutherford’s way of thinking, the minute the American consumer starts to actually save money above and beyond their 401K, or uses those funds to eliminate debt, then it is time for the government to take the consumer’s money and reallocate it accordingly.

    I suppose that Rutherford doesn’t see the folly of this idea. I know Wally the Folly won’t understand what I’m talking about, as he never does.

    When did saving money and cutting personal debt become a bad thing in America? Has progressive thinking become so ingrained in America mindset that self-responsibility is to be determined by Big Brother? 😮

  75. Advisor to Nobel-award winning POTUS says shari’a law “gender justice” for women
    posted at 8:48 am on October 9, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

    Barack Obama won a Nobel Peace Prize on a nomination submitted ten whole days into his term of office in part due to his effort in “easing American conflicts with Muslim nations.” Helming that effort is Dalia Mogahed, Obama’s advisor on Muslim affairs, who gave British television viewers a taste of how Obama won the Nobel. She explained that the oppressive shari’a law that results in stonings, mainly for women, is actually “gender justice”, which might be news to women’s-rights groups around the world:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/10/09/advisor-to-nobel-award-winning-potus-says-sharia-law-gender-justice-for-women/

    He sure surrounds himself with despicable people.

  76. I am so happy that BOMBA won the Nobel Peace Prize. Really, I am. If this doesn’t prove how feckless and weak, how marginalized, politically correct, and irrelevant Europe and its associations have become, I don’t know what will.

    And this is the same form of leadership and principles (or principals if you’re Densico) that Wally and Rutherford wish for America to adopt; the same path, the same model of assured failure. The results of those choices are now crystal clear for the world to see. Clear thinking people know this.

    The last nine months have been painful – pitiful, in fact. But if nothing else good has come of BOMBA’s emptiness, wrongheadedness and corruption, it has shown just how small liberalism and socialism really are. How truly despicable and amoral people like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are.

    It has forced us as a nation to reevaluate what is important. Courage, bravery, morality, and honor? Or slick cellophane packages of empty space, wrapped with a well-rehearsed style read from a teleprompter, standing in front of the Parthenon.

    There is absolutely no doubt in my mind which way America should choose to go. Will we continue down the path to destruction that this current administration, E.U., and the U.N. would lead us? Or will we return to what separated America in its former greatness to lead the world from its demise?

    The crossroads are now in front of you American people. Narrow is the path…

  77. Tex,

    It was a good news as Thuggy getting dissed at the Olympics. I was shocked they had the gall to vote for him the winner after 2 weeks in office.

    You know who should have got it? The Iranian protesters. Thats who deserved it.

  78. aw, are republicans feeling a little “salty” because Obama won the Nobel Prize. His agenda is what got him that prize and he’s making an effort to end nuclear proliferation.

    I think it’s very appropriate that he gets the award. btw, I’ll be back later to answer the other questions but I’m at school and have to use the restroom right now. But I will say that I’ll stop making assumptions about Red Pill once he stops suggesting I’m some far left looney to stupid to understand the connection between two statements.

  79. “Agenda”?

    LOL I thought you got an award for accomplishments. What did he accomplish in the 2 weeks? Its like giving a director an Oscar for best picture before it was filmed because the script looked so good.

    You get more moronic by the day.

  80. Yeah, it’s appropriate that he gets the award.

    After all, he has accomplished __________.

    Nothing.

    When did effort overcome success in the order of importance?

    “and have to use the restroom right now.”

    What makes you think anyone here gives a damn about you needing to relieve yourself?

    “But I will say that I’ll stop making assumptions about Red Pill once he stops suggesting I’m some far left looney to stupid to understand the connection between two statements.”

    Stop putting words in my mouth. My comment made absolutely no reference to your political affiliation or orientation. And neither was the basis for my comment.

    It’s not that I think you’re a liberal, I just think you aren’t very bright. “Densico” is by far the most apporpriate knickname I have seen being used around here.

    And if you want to continue to prove it through your false assumptions about me, then go right ahead. I’m not the one being made to look like a dumbass because of it.

  81. Using Wally and Rutherford’s way of thinking, the minute the American consumer starts to actually save money above and beyond their 401K, or uses those funds to eliminate debt, then it is time for the government to take the consumer’s money and reallocate it accordingly.

    LOL now look who’s engaging in generalities. Saving money and staying out of debt is what folks should have been doing in a robust economy.

    The problem, which you fail to address, is that in a broken economy, businesses can’t make revenue without people spending. Folks don’t spend, businesses go belly up, more folks without jobs, folks don’t spend … cycle continues. Government has to take steps to break the cycle.

    Sorry but your “man in the mall” anecdotal evidence doesn’t cut it. Consumer spending is down and the forecast for this holiday season is not enthusiastic.

  82. Rutherford: “If you want to see my take on the Nobel prize, read my new post. I won’t be commenting on it here.”

    Who cares about that stuff? What we all really want to know is if everything came out alright during Sensico’s trip to the shitter.

  83. The problem, which you fail to address, is that in a broken economy, businesses can’t make revenue without people spending. Folks don’t spend, businesses go belly up, more folks without jobs, folks don’t spend … cycle continues. Government has to take steps to break the cycle.

    Doesn’t matter how you spin this, R. You’re simply asking government to force spending in the most inefficient of ways. How’s GM doing and the banks?

    You were around in 1982 and gov’t didn’t spend. It cut costs… So you want to explain to me how we came out of that recession without massive gov’t intervention Rutherford? Or should we just ignore the history?

    By the way. Doesn’t sound like you took your own sound advice. Keep preaching to the choir, though. It amuses me. 😉

  84. Back on topic…

    Liberty and the pursuit of happiness may be lofty goals but is it too much to ask that we just get a chance to stay alive?

    The very concept of liberty dear R is that you get a chance to live. How you do that is your business. Not mine,not anyone else on this thread and not the boys in the Beltway.
    And Curator I must say…you are a douche. Your “socialist healthcare”. Yeah even in the USAF you deal with hardships that warrant the benefit of 30 days off a year and healthcare. Tell you what. You’ll have a point when everyone in America is held to the E1 to say E4 paygrade.

  85. lol ewwww, don’t call it a shitter, that’s disgusting. It’s called a restroom. And you are obviously stupid if you want to get into the nickname game, DOIAD and CBP.

  86. Now that your done taking your crap, maybe you can find that link I challenged you to give us in comment #100?

  87. Nice try, sweetie.

    It is not split.

    47% reported seeing it as a moral responsibility.
    48% reported seeing it as NOT a moral responsibility.

    So a couple of key points.

    1) 47<48
    2) 47 does not = "most"

    But since you made an attempt, I will be nominating you for next year's Nobel Prize. I think you have a pretty good shot.

  88. So they taught you in statistics that margin of error can be applied to 1 side but not the other?

    I can apply that same margin of error to the side that does not feel it is a moral issue and we are left with the same results.

    Or I can apply the negative margine of error to your side and the positive margin of error to my side and you lose even more.

    You may as well move along to the other thread, because we are pretty much done here. You cannot win this one except through spin that I can also use to kill your arguement.

    In other words…you lose.

  89. Doesn’t sound like you took your own sound advice.

    Admittedly, I bought too much house. Previously, I was in practice a fiscal conservative. I used credit cards for convenience, not for lack of money (i.e. I NEVER had running balances). A too expensive house, marriage and a kid changed things and then loss of job really sent the walls crashing down.

    By the same token, it’s damn hard to have a family on one income nowadays so even if I had zero debt when I got laid off, it would still be a bit tough right now. This speech will be used against me sometime down the line. Guess I’m just a sucker for punishment.

  90. Though when specifically asked about morals it was a split.

    I couldn’t get my darn Adobe plugin to work in my browser tonight so I’ll take your word for it on the stats.

    A split on the morals shows what a sad country we have become.

  91. It is not split.

    Oh c’mon Red Pill … 47/48 is a statistical split and you know it. Are you that obsessed on ragging on Sensico to argue a dopey point like that? C’mon!

  92. yeah, for some reason he hates me soooo much (probably b/c I don’t go to corner bars) that he willing to show off his stupidity. I hope he’s over the moon, as gay as cow over the fact that his side of the argument has a 1 point gain 😆

    if you have google account then use, right-click save the pdf to your computer and upload it on Google Docs or where ever

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