Barack Hussein Obama: The Muslim Speech

Today’s speech by President Barack Obama in Cairo, Egypt was greatly anticipated. This was the first time that an American President went out of his way to speak to the practicing Muslims of the world and attempt to forge a new beginning in how Americans view Muslims and how Muslims view Americans.

The speech addressed seven major areas of concern:

  1. Violent extremism
  2. Israel
  3. Nuclear proliferation
  4. Democracy
  5. Religious freedom
  6. Women’s rights
  7. Economic development and opportunity

Nothing Obama said in these areas should have surprised anyone. In each area his message was consistent with America’s core beliefs. Conservatives, of course will be enraged by the fact that Obama called the war in Iraq a war of choice (as opposed to the war in Afghanistan which he labeled a war of necessity). The “right” will also get their undies in a knot over Obama’s concession that we have tortured and his commitment that we will do so no more. As far as I am concerned, these things had to be said. If we hold ourselves to be perfect, we cannot build peace with other nations. We must first look to our own deficits, admit them, and correct them before we can hope to influence the minds and hearts of others.

Obama did not let Muslims “off the hook” for their own contributions to the current state of affairs. He pointed out how Muslims must resolve the Sunni/Shia struggle. He commented on how Muslims must not oppress followers of other religions, singling out the Copts in Egypt as an example.

What I felt Obama did most skillfully was what every preacher does. My criticism of organized religion is that scripture can be cherry-picked to prove just about any point you want to prove. Today, Obama was a master of scripture cherry-picking, relying mostly on the Quran, but ending in a beautiful “triple-play” of Christian/Jewish/Muslim text.

As the Holy Quran tells us, Be conscious of God and speak always the truth.

The Holy Quran teaches that whoever kills an innocent is as — it is as it if has killed all mankind.

And the Holy Quran also says whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind.

There is one rule that lies at the heart of every religion, that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

And then the grand finale:

The Holy Quran tells us, Mankind, we have created you male and a female. And we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another.

The Talmud tells us, The whole of the Torah is for the purpose of promoting peace.

The Holy Bible tells us, Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

When all is said and done, I don’t expect the world to change because of this speech. Yet it still says something about the United States of America that we can send forth a leader to deliver a message to the world that needs to be delivered.

The man who does not speak because he believes no one will listen, is not a noble man. The very act of trying to change hearts and minds through peaceful persuasion is a noble one, regardless of the consequences.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

For other perspectives on this speech from around the WPPBA, please visit these blogs:

Cadillac Tight
In One Ear … Out The Other

WordPress.com Political Blogger Alliance

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134 thoughts on “Barack Hussein Obama: The Muslim Speech

  1. Nothing Obama said in these areas should have surprised anyone.

    Now thats true. Obama basically did what he did with Europe, apologize, concede, and ask for nothing back.

    The “right” will also get their undies in a knot over Obama’s concession that we have tortured and his commitment that we will do so no more.

    Once again, I (and somewhere between a quarter and half of America) do not believe that waterboarding is torture (and another 25%-50% is still undecided).

    Did you read my post on torture?

    Obama did not let Muslims “off the hook” for their own contributions to the current state of affairs.

    He didn’t even say the word ‘terrorist’. In the US, the Sunni/Shia battles comes second when compared to terrorism. And did Obama ask for an apology for 9/11? How about for the USS Cole? How about for the 4500 soldiers who have died fighting terrorists overseas? Apologizing for wrongs we haven’t committed to appease our enemies doesn’t accomplish anything.

  2. “The Holy Quran teaches that whoever kills an innocent is as — it is as it if has killed all mankind.

    And the Holy Quran also says whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind.”

    Those were directed towards the children of Israel.

    “There is one rule that lies at the heart of every religion, that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us.”

    That quote is directed towards muslims behavior towards other muslims. islam is the only “religion” where it actually dictates behavior towards believers vrs unbelievers.

    For those who actually want a true analysis, not a biased synopsis from someone that cant find any fault from the thug in chief who is more left than Chavez and Castro, read this.

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026426.php#respond

  3. My criticism of organized religion is that scripture can be cherry-picked to prove just about any point you want to prove.

    True…kind of. Picking one apple off a tree and finding it rotten doesn’t mean that the tree is bad. And the same goes if the verse is good. That is why you have to look at the whole religion. Then it is pretty easy to see cherry picking.

  4. “How about for the 4500 soldiers who have died fighting terrorists overseas? “

    It is my personal opinion, and I have no proof to back up this claim, but I think the majority of the over 4300 who have died in Iraq, died while fighting Iraqi’s and not anything or anybody having a thing to do with terrorism. The Washington-based Center for Strategic International Studies (CSIS) says “The actual terrorist (foreign fighters) made up only 4 – 10% of all insurgents in Iraq.”

    To attribute 4500 of our soldiers deaths strictly to fighting “terrorists overseas” is a myth. Most of their deaths were due to our occupation of Iraq.

  5. The spread of Islam was military. There is a tendency to
    apologize for this and we should not. It is one of the
    injunctions of the Quran that you must fight to spread Islam.”
    ~ Dr. Ali Issa Othman, Islamic Scholar

    Here you go “R”, in dedication to you the useful idiot, and the Ever Most Benevolent Barack and his moral platitudes:

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

  6. Christianity was spread by the sword as well. What is your point?

    I assume our resident theologian can document this for us?

  7. “Tex,

    Christianity was spread by the sword as well. What is your point?”

    Thats a flat out lie. But I would have called him our resident multiculturalist.

  8. Doesn’t the word “crusade” mean “going to the Cross”?

    Didn’t the Pope 900 some odd years after the crucifiction of Jesus urge all Christian warriors to go to Palestine and free Jerusalem in the name of Christianity, hence we had the first in a long line of “Crusades”? Were not the Crusades deemed “Holy Wars”?


  9. I will give the dead bodies of the host of the Philistines this day to the birds of the air and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel. 1 Samuel 17:47

    “He ordered the guards and officers to slaughter them all, and to let not a single one escape.” (2 Kings Chapter 10 verse 25) “God said to Jehu, ‘you have done well in carrying out what is right and have completed what I wanted done to the house of Ahab. Therefore your sons will be kings over Israel to the fourth generation.” (2 Kings Chapter 10 verse 30)

    “Joshua destroyed everyone. They did not leave anyone alive.” (Joshua 11:14) “They were put to the sword, destroying them all.” (Joshua 11:12)

  10. 9. Curator | June 4, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    Doesn’t the word “crusade” mean “going to the Cross”?

    Didn’t the Pope 900 some odd years after the crucifiction of Jesus urge all Christian warriors to go to Palestine and free Jerusalem in the name of Christianity, hence we had the first in a long line of “Crusades”? Were not the Crusades deemed “Holy Wars”?

    It was a push back against islamic imperialism.

  11. Didn’t the Pope 900 some odd years after the crucifiction of Jesus urge all Christian warriors to go to Palestine and free Jerusalem in the name of Christianity, hence we had the first in a long line of “Crusades”? Were not the Crusades deemed “Holy Wars”?

    That’s 900 years after the fact bozo. And you’re still reading from the Old Testament. Go give your jazz to the Jews. What do you think happened the first 900 years with respect to the spread of Christianity, and where’s the sword that you speak?

    What you didn’t note is though I sympathize with the innocent Jews and Muslims of Jerusalem who were needlessly murdered, the push was against radical Islam and were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression of the 7th and 8th centuries and an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.

    I’m like Elric66 Mr. Curator. Why don’t you document your “proof” of how Christianity was spread by the sword? Or were you not aware that for the first 300 years of Christianity, followers of Jesus accepted torture and death from the Roman Empire rather than forsake their commitment to Jesus?

    You call that spreading by the sword, do you? Seems to be to be diametrically opposed to the “spread” of the religion of pieces you willingly defend.

  12. I won’t agree that Christianity was originally spread by the sword, but it certainly was during the time of the Crusades. This mumbo-jumbo about them being defensive wars against radical Islam is a bunch of ahistoric bullshit.

    Let’s look at the historic facts.

    Muslims had conquered much of the Middle East, and were pushing into Byzantine Turkey, threatening Constantinople. The Byzantine Emperor sent word to Pope Urban asking for an elite force of warriors to help his army push them out of the immediate surroundings. To speculate for a moment, he probably was expecting a force of about 100 or so. Remember, he wanted elite troops.

    In Europe at the time there were thousands of landless knights that terrorized the population and caused general havoc. These are the 2nd and 3rd (and so on) sons of knights who get left out of primogeniture inheritance. Basically, they weren’t daddy’s first, so they got left out of the will. Life was a bitch in the 10th century.

    When the Pope got the plea for help, he saw this as an oppurtunity to give those knights something to do, and to expand his own sphere of influence. He called for the Crusade, and 60,000 answered the call.

    When the Crusader army got to Constantinople, the Eastern Emperor shit his pants. This was not what he had asked for. He did not trust them. So he had them help him retake 1 city, and then he locked their asses out.

    Had the wars been defensive wars against radical Islam, meant only to stop the flow and answer the call of help from the East, they’d have stopped there. But that is not what the Pope ordered. He wanted the Holy Land, so as to spread his sphere on influence, for the wealth it had, and to get land for those landless knights.

    So the Crusaders began their pillaging tour of the Holy Land, slaughtering the occupants of pretty much every city they took. They killed Muslims. They killed Jews. They killed Christians. They killed because of faith, but mainly because of want for booty. After all, to the victors go the spoils. And if you have to lop off a few thousand heads and slit a bunch of bellies to get at the gold which was swallowed, then so be it. A Crusader’s got to do what a Crusader’s got to do, right?

    These are all documented facts of history, and if I have to dig up scholarly links to primary source documents, I will. But keep in mind, anyone who insists I do so had best be prepared to return that favor any time I request it (Elric).

    None of that is to say that many of the Crusaders didn’t believe they were fighting for God. After all, the representative of Christ wouldn’t order them to do something if God didn’t want it, right?

    But that certainly was not the POLITICAL motivations of the Pope who ordered them to take up the cross. And anyone who believes otherwise is not looking at the facts with an objective eye.

    And while we’re on the subject, Elric can feel free to tell us who led the Crusade into Northern Europe, when that crusade was led, and where it went. You seem to have overlooked that pending question in another thread.

  13. Tex: “That’s 900 years after the fact bozo. And you’re still reading from the Old Testament. Go give your jazz to the Jews.”

    Aren’t you the guy who recently told us that all of the Bible was accurate and is pretainant to Christianity? That book says exactly what the Christian Council of Niceae said it should say, remember?

    Are you not prepared to defend 1/2 of the book of your faith?

  14. Also, good read, Rutherford. I will be writing one of these up later tonight, and I will link this one to mine.

  15. Pill,

    WTF does pretainant mean? I’ve never thought you terribly bright as your website in dire need of editing for simple spelling errors, but I took up for you because your politics on my side. I did that even if you are an under educated dipshit who’s posts so grammatically incorrect at Chen’s, I cringed when I read them. Did you happen to mean pertinent genius, as you give dribble on about your leftist, school-learned bullshit about the Crusades – however inaccurate your screed? You’re presentation a popular myth, but hardly accurate.

    I must admit, until the last two weeks, I didn’t know you a Christian hatin’ asshole. Now I do, so you’ll begin to draw my ire. Welcome to the club.

    The term is Judeo-Christian. All of it is true; all of it relevant. The Judeo portion runs from Genesis thru Malachi – I’ll save you the trouble; that’s 39 books of Hebrew. The Old Testament the preface to the New Testament announcing amongst other things the story of creation and antiquity, the covenant between God and the patriarchs, Jewish history, and the prophecies of both Israel and coming messiah – both major and minor prophets. The New Testament consists of 27 books, mostly written in Greek. It’s basis tenet is Jesus and the completion of the Old Testament covenant. That’s the Christian part. Without the Old Testament, the New Testament meaningless. Without the New Testament, the Old Testament unfulfilled. To defend my faith is easy. What’s difficult is bringing to a level than you can understand in a debate.

    Islam is a pagan religion derived from one of 340 gods that an illiterate Mohammed dreamed up using the moon good Allah in collaboration with his first wife. Muhammad, who while sniffing glue or something, happened to dream up he was seeing the Angel Gabriel as he dictated to his wife while sitting on her lap the Koran. That is, when Mohammad wasn’t porking his nine year old bride Aisha. We’ve seen the pagan religion called Islam ruin one country after another. Christianity founded the very basis of western civilization and culture you enjoy. You deny it, you’re even dumber than I thought.

    Do you really want to debate Christian theology? Because I can assure you from what little I’ve read, you’re clueless…

  16. Was anyone really ever converted during the Crusades? If my memory serves me right, the Crusades did not reap many new conversions of any faith.

    If I was going to battle Tex on this one, which I do not have courage to do, I would concentrate on the “Northern Crusades” (against pagan Lithuanian types) and even some of the shit that went down in the New World.

    Oh yeah, the 30 Years War and the Religious Wars in Spain (Ferdinand and Isabella vs. the Moors) were certainly Christian wars where the losers were forced to convert or die.

    However, Christianity was never established in the first place by the sword. Islam was. I’m not sure how anyone can really debate this.

  17. I heard Iran scrambled Obama’s speech, although I’m sure we had it pumped in on the short wave.

    I honestly don’t have any complaints about the speech. The constant apologizing is getting old and will come back to bite us. But, as a whole, I suppose it can’t hurt to say “my bad” about the coup in Iran in ’53. Whatever. Stink beards will hate us no matter what. If Obama wants to be “cool daddy smooth”, I say go for it.

    As long as he is working on a game plan for the inevitable war in the middle east between Israel and Iran. Sadly, I don’t think he gets it.

  18. I would love to find the point in time where American became the scape goat for European Imperialism. If any body should be apologizing non stop it should be Europe.

  19. The Popacy was the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity. As soon as power was involved, so was politics. The Pope and the Cardinals came up with some great ways to make money, many of them were dishonest and unchristian. The first Crusades started out defensively, but as soon as exotic riches and free land was discovered, Chrisianity was left out of it…except as a recruiting tool. Not all Popes were bad, but many of them were. Many of them were as Christian as Rev. Wright.

  20. Tex: It’s called a typo. Have you ever made any? Feel free to point out the many I have made on my website. Put up, or shut up.

    As for me being a Christian-hating asshole, you are 1/2 right. I am an asshole. Concidering the attitude you have displayed around the here and other blogs, I’d have thought you would respect such a quality. You certainly share it.

    As for being a Christian-hater, I am anything but. I don’t base my hate on the ideologies and beliefs of others. Which is more than I can say for others around here.

    “To defend my faith is easy. What’s difficult is bringing to a level than you can understand in a debate.”

    I’m an honors scholar, my friend. I am able to understand information just fine. And, when you aren’t trying to flex your muscles, and actually calm down for a minute, you pass on information just fine. So please, don’t feel the need to dumb anything down for me. I enjoy the discussion, as long as you don’t start insulting my intelligence. That, I do not appreciate, and it will bring out the tiger’s claws every time. I’ve invested way too much time in my education to stand for that.

    “Muhammad, who while sniffing glue or something, happened to dream up he was seeing the Angel Gabriel as he dictated to his wife while sitting on her lap the Koran. ”

    Would that be as opposed to Moses, who got short of oxygen on his way up Mt. Sinai, and had a hallucenation about God speaking to him through a burning bush?

    We can play that game all day long.

    “…That is, when Mohammad wasn’t porking his nine year old bride Aisha.”

    Muhammad married Aisha after the death of his first wife. So we already see where you either don’t know WTF you are talking about, or are just willing to look stupid in order to put forth your rhetoric. I’ll let you decide which is the case.

    “Christianity founded the very basis of western civilization and culture you enjoy. ”

    Again, you either don’t know what you’re talking about, or are simply willing to ignore facts in order to spout your garbage, thinking that the rest of us are ignorant.

    The basis of Western civilization came from the ancient Greeks and Romans (republic era). Both of which predate Christianity.

    And do you know who preserved the writings of those ancient civilizations for the West to found their societies on after they got through the Medieval period? Let’s just say, they were not European.

    “You deny it, you’re even dumber than I thought.”

    “Dumber”? That’s quite a word coming from someone who began his post criticizing a friggen typo. I’d suggest you keep a dictionary handy if you are going to turn into the spelling Nazi around here. I think you’ll find “dumber” is not listed. At least not in an English one.

    “Do you really want to debate Christian theology? Because I can assure you from what little I’ve read, you’re clueless…”

    You’re right. I am relatively clueless about Christian theology. Good thing I am not a theologian. It would appear that you are equally clueless about Christian history, or any history, for that matter.

    And that is a topic I will debate with you any day of the week.

  21. Red Pill,

    Why don’t you point out where Christianity was “spread” during the Crusades. I’m afraid you’re wrong there, my friend.

    Name one instance of mass conversion.

  22. And by the way, you’re Crusades narrative is verbatim the History Channel’s Cross and Crescent: The Crusades.

    Not that there is anything wrong with that.

  23. “I won’t agree that Christianity was originally spread by the sword, but it certainly was during the time of the Crusades.” Red Pill

    Yeah, the more I think about it, that is utterly false.

  24. Dead Rabbit: “Why don’t you point out where Christianity was “spread” during the Crusades. I’m afraid you’re wrong there, my friend.”

    It was spread sort of by default. When you go to a foreign land and kill anything not Christian, and then flood that land with hundreds of thousands of Christians, that is the spreading I am referring to.

    I did not mean to imply that people were forced to convert. For 1 thing, I doubt they were given the opportunity. Crusaders weren’t looking to set up a steady revenue system. They wanted immediate booty.

    So, the “spread” I was referring to was of the land, not the people. I probably should have made that more clear. I can see where my wording would look like I was saying the other.

  25. Once again, I (and somewhere between a quarter and half of America) do not believe that waterboarding is torture (and another 25%-50% is still undecided).
    Did you read my post on torture?

    Solar, your post on torture sat on the browser of my other computer for days. I was planning to read it but didn’t get a chance till you reminded me with this comment. You already know my thoughts on this but I’ll address one specific here:

    Please don’t quote me stats on what Americans “believe”. Americans believe they’ve seen the face of Jesus on a potato chip. Americans can’t name more than about five Presidents. If I were to base my knowledge on what Americans “believe” I’d be dumbing myself down pretty damn fast.

    Being drowned (i.e. waterboarding) is torture. It’s not subject to belief. It is an objective fact. And it drives me crazy that folks want to deny it. The fact that they work so hard to deny it, just confirms further for me that they have qualms about the procedure.

  26. Tex, Tex, Tex. My political polar opposite, you amuse me even when you don’t intend to.

    First, criticism of typos should really be off limits. Do we really want to count the number of times you’ve openly cursed yourself on this blog for a misplaced consonant or misspelled word? So, c’mon, that attack on Pill is just plain silly.

    But what really amuses me is that Red Pill was your comrade as long as he was singing the conservative party line. But once you discovered that Red Pill was a conservative religious skeptic, all went to hell in a handbasket! That box of acceptability you have in your head Tex is incredibly confining. It is quite similar to the Republican party you love so much, a party whose narrowness of thought is slowly but surely disenfranchising all of its own members, slowly making it the Whigs of the 21st century.

    Don’t be so quick to throw Red Pill to the lions old Tex. He may not be as God-fearing as you, but he can intelligently argue a conservative position (as can you and Rabbit). You need all the intelligent conservative voices you can find. They are in way short supply! 🙂

  27. It’s cool. I don’t think Tex is making this about politics. He simply thinks I’m an ignorant hethen, and sees it as his duty to educate me in his own special way.

    It’s the same reason Elric fights so hard to get us to listen. He thinks he’s doing the right thing.

    I can understand that. It’s the same thing that motivates me to try and educate them in my way. It’s my duty as a scholar.

    We just often let our emotions and tempers come out, because we are so passionate about what we believe in.

    And because we’re hotheaded assholes. But you knew that part.

  28. “It is quite similar to the Republican party you love so much, a party whose narrowness of thought is slowly but surely disenfranchising all of its own members, slowly making it the Whigs of the 21st century.”

    What the hell are you talking about? Your party is so narrow in thought, you are in lock step with the thug in chief as he leads this country into ruin.

    So narrow that your senate leader hasnt read one opinion on Soto but will vote for her anyway.

    When Mark Levin calls you guys drones, he isnt exaggerating on bit.

    For those who want a good audio anaylsis of Obama’s lies in his pander, listen to the first part of todays show. June 4th

    http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930

    Red Pill might be very interested in it. Might learn something about the Palis.

  29. Even if I were tempted to give it a listen—which I am not—my Internet isn’t any better steaming audio than it is streaming video.

  30. Rabbit,

    “However, Christianity was never established in the first place by the sword. Islam was. I’m not sure how anyone can really debate this.”

    Nobody ever said that “Christianity was never established in the first place by the sword”,(those are your words) but that it’s spread was at times during times of conquest or persecution. Do you deny this?

    Roman Emperor Theodosius made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire, and with it came a long and bloody battle to destroy pagan temples and persecute his pagan subjects on the grounds of religion.

    What did Constantine do after coming to power? Why he persecuted Christians and non-Christians alike. The Gnostic Christians are targeted, and other Christians who believed in more than one God. Christians who don’t have the Old Testament as part of their teachings were targeted. What in fact did Constantine mean on the eve of battle against Maxentius in 312 when he said “In this sign you will conquer” ( sign of the cross). Did the cross and the sword become one?

    I’m not arguing for Islam or for Christianity but simply pointing out facts. Islam spread primarily through
    military conquest and that fact is irrefutable, however Christianity spread at times during intense persecution, and war, throughout parts of Europe, northern Africa, and the Middle East, and is also a fact.

    So on one hand you kill your enemy by the sword and thus spread your beliefs and or religion (Islam) throughout their lands, on the other hand you threaten your enemy by the sword “convert or die” and thus spread your beliefs and or religion (Christianity) throughout their lands. What in the hell is the difference?

    Pagan’s who didn’t convert were slaughtered.

    “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”
    LUKE 19:27

  31. I’m an honors scholar, my friend. I am able to understand information just fine.

    Baloney. And it’s heathen and hallucination, as I suppose those were more typos. Here’s another one in which you’re clueless. From Merriam Webster Mohammad.

    Main Entry: dumber
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German tumb mute
    Date: before 12th century

    1 a: lacking the human power of speech bof a person often offensive : lacking the ability to speak2: temporarily unable to speak (as from shock or astonishment)
    synonyms see stupid

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dumber&x=0&y=0

    You ought to ask for your ‘honorary’ money back…

    I’ll think about how to bring a conversation to your level so I can point out how completely void you are. Have this strange feeling you got a little anti-Semitism driving this.Two syllable words max.

    The basis of Western civilization came from the ancient Greeks and Romans (republic era). Both of which predate Christianity.

    Right. I’ll try to remember than when I take a stroll through Western Europe and witness all the great churches, art and science. But if we want to play with dates and you think predating this or that is the basis of foundation, Judaism predates both Rome and Greece. I suppose I can now make claim that the Jews provided the basis for the Roman Empire – using your honorary logic, of course.

  32. Ah Tex. You love to be scholarly when it suits you. I’ll be sure to comment on every single misspelling and grammatical error you put out from here on in. And from the looks of it, I will be in for a load of work.

    “Have this strange feeling you got a little anti-Semitism driving this.Two syllable words max.”

    Here you are displaying more of your ignorance. Semites are not just Jews. In fact, Arabs are Semites, too. So when it comes to “anti-Semitism,” look in the mirror, pal. You’re proving to be one of the biggest ones here.

    Also, that is some pretty messed up sentence structure you have there. Who has a strange feeling about my anti-Semitism? You, Rutherford, the guy around the corner? Hell, that last portion isn’t even a complete sentence. It’s lacking a verb, for starters.

    And your entire comment is also lacking several commas.

    So keep on judging my intelligence because I get lazy on a blog. I will apply your own rules to your posts, and we can drag each other down all the way to the gutter instead of discussing the really important issues.

    “Right. I’ll try to remember than when I take a stroll through Western Europe and witness all the great churches, art and science. But if we want to play with dates and you think predating this or that is the basis of foundation, Judaism predates both Rome and Greece. I suppose I can now make claim that the Jews provided the basis for the Roman Empire – using your honorary logic, of course.”

    “Right.” is not a complete sentence. It contains no subject or verb.

    It appears that you are the one who is having trouble comprehending things in this discussion. Predation in and of itself does not equate to foundation. And I never said as much. I assumed you were able to apply an ounce of logic to my statement. I see I was mistaken.

    When you should remember it is when you exercise your freedoms that come with living in a free, democratic society. You remember democracy, don’t you? How about the concept of a republic?

    Would you not agree that these are the foundations of western civilization? I sure would.

    Funny that you should bring up science as you are defending Christianity as the basis for western civilization. Seeing as for centuries, the Church that you seem to think gave us our foundation was vehemently against science.

    As for that great art of Europe, remember that some of what you are looking at is, or was, covered by that Church you say gave us our foundation, because it was deemed offensive. That is including nudes painted in the Sistine Chapel, and the statue of David.

  33. And “Baloney.” is not a complete sentence, either. You couldn’t even get 1 word out without making a sad grammatical error. And in the same paragraph in which you are criticizing my spelling.

    You are either a hypocrite, or simply ignorant.

    And I don’t think you are ignorant.

  34. And yes I know “predation” is not the same as “predating.” Maybe I should whine to Rutherford to get him to edit it for me.

  35. Curator,

    As men who make war became Christian, they became Christian men who made war. No doubt about it. And I’m pretty much in agreement with everything you said.

    However, the the peaceful spread of Christianity up until Constantine is rather unprecedented. I think you guys down play it a little, forgetting how diverse and huge the Roman Empire was.

    But yeah, we’re splitting hairs here.

    Tex goes effin crazy over this topic.

  36. “What I felt Obama did most skillfully was what every preacher does.”

    So he’s a preacher too? Well he does remind me of Rev. Wright a bit. Listening to 20 years of anti-American, anti-white, antisemitism cant help but rub off on you.

  37. First, criticism of typos should really be off limits. Do we really want to count the number of times you’ve openly cursed yourself on this blog for a misplaced consonant or misspelled word? So, c’mon, that attack on Pill is just plain silly.

    Red Pill and Tex, please re-read this paragraph from comment 28. Let’s put an end to the typo wars (yes Red, I know “well, HE started it!” LOL). I don’t care if you guys bash each others heads in on ideology, fact checking, personal opinion, etc. but please don’t waste my virtual white space with typo wars. Can’t we do better than that?

  38. Elric, for a man who at least sounds well read on matters Islam (albeit perceived through a distorted lens), why is it you almost only quote WeaselZippers and JihadWatch? I know you can’t find support in the MSM but surely you have more sources than these two?

    While I am at it, I assumed you were affiliated with WeaselZippers because you provide it as your web site address. Are you simply a fan or are they remunerating you for the implicit endorsement? 😉

  39. Islam is a pagan religion derived from one of 340 gods that an illiterate Mohammed dreamed up using the moon good Allah in collaboration with his first wife. Muhammad, who while sniffing glue or something, happened to dream up he was seeing the Angel Gabriel as he dictated to his wife while sitting on her lap the Koran.

    Tex, this is priceless. So please do tell us what you think of Mormonism? Now I know it makes me a look like a doofus to quote from Wikipedia but it’s the easiest way and I don’t have the energy to be more erudite right now:

    Mormonism originated in the late 1820s, as Joseph Smith, Jr., founder of the Latter Day Saint movement told his associates and family that he had located a buried book of golden plates written by ancient American prophets. Smith said he had been directed to these plates by an angel, and that his mission was to publish a translation of this book which he expected would revolutionize Christian thought. This work, published in 1830 as the Book of Mormon, served as a foundation for Smith’s small Church of Christ.

    This is the very polite way of saying Joseph Smith was either a crackpot or a swindler. Skeptics of the Mormon Church tend to suspect the latter. Now of course if you reject either alternative and you acknowledge that angels spoke to Mr. Smith than that to me makes Jesus seem a whole lot less unique. Seems like Jesus didn’t corner the market after all on close relations with the supernatural.

    But I digress …. I’m simply bringing up Mormonism because your slam at Mohammed sounds exactly like the same slam I’ve heard against Joseph Smith.Seems like a common technique when one doesn’t “like” a particular religion is to discredit the originator of that religion.

    So, I ask you. Do you stand by Joseph Smith while you stand against Mohammed? And if so, where do you find any logical integrity in that position?

  40. Hmmmmm….again with the dodging, just questioning my sources which almost always refer to another source. Typical.

    Hmmmm….comparing John Smith to Mohammed? Another example of typical liberal moral relativism.

    All I can say is Mormons arent blowing themselves up, chopping heads off, performing FGM, pushing their religion on others, etc.

    Not a big fan of Mormonism but it evolved much much quicker than islam did and islam had a 1200 year head start.

  41. Mmmmm, Elric interesting that you avoided one of the things Mormons seem to emulate in Mohammed … namely their fondness for multiple wives, many of them underage.

  42. “Mmmmm, Elric interesting that you avoided one of the things Mormons seem to emulate in Mohammed … namely their fondness for multiple wives, many of them underage.”

    Which they forbid. Any more liberal moral relativism? I think your new nickname will be dodger. Tore up the quotes obama used that you gushed over and all you can do is talk about a practice that is illegal in the Mormon church today.

    btw You find obama’s GPA yet?

  43. “btw You find obama’s GPA yet?”

    What’s this about, Elric? Just an inside joke, or are you suggesting that Obama is a poor academic achiever?

  44. FGM is cultural, and has nothing to do with Islam. That it takes place in many Muslim countries is not a corellation to Islam. It also does not happen in many Muslim countries.

    twc, Elric’s question is a running joke. It’s about Obama being the “most transparent president in history,” while being so ashamed of his grades that he had them sealed.

    Just like the running joke/debate at our blog.

    Elric, thanks for the link. That isn’t really the type of “Crusade into N Arfica” I was picturing, but the Sinai is indeed in North Africa, so you have fullfilled the request to answer, and I have added to my knowldge base. I thank you for both.

    The Crusades aren’t a big topic from the perspective of Islam and Arabs. Very little has been written from that side, and the primary sources are very few. Much, much more has been written from the European perspective, and I guess my lessons just didn’t get beyond them taking Jerusalem. I’d love to take a class just on the Crusades.

  45. Red Pill,

    I would suggest reading Robert Spencer’s “The politically incorrect guide to islam and the Crusades”. Gives you a bit more insight since what we get from our academia is Western guilt.

    And I dont say that the Crusaders were all pure. I just say the motive was just and I compare it to the allies vrs the Axis powers. We werent all saints in WW II. Heel our behavior in Iraq was much better than in WW II and we hail those who fought “The best generation”

    I was also suggest looking into the eastern front of islamic imperialism. It was even nastier than the Western front because unlike Jews and Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and other Eastern religions were not considered People of the Book so werent given dhimmi status, it was convert or die. Only after millions were killed, the muslims realized they were killing off their tax revenue and gave them dhimmi status.

    “FGM is cultural, and has nothing to do with Islam.”

    Its starting to become a big problem in Europe and Im sure you can guess who the problem makers are.

  46. ““FGM is cultural, and has nothing to do with Islam.”

    Its starting to become a big problem in Europe and Im sure you can guess who the problem makers are.”

    But that is still because they are applying their cultural practices, not their religious practices. And I am in no way excusing this sickening practice that should be aboloshed worldwide.

    “I would suggest reading Robert Spencer’s “The politically incorrect guide to islam and the Crusades”. Gives you a bit more insight since what we get from our academia is Western guilt.”

    I will give that some consideration, but I have to admit that my reading list is quite full. Would you consider it light reading, like those “For Dummy’s” books? It sort of sounds like it is maybe that type (which isn’t to put it down, because I find those often very informative).

    “I was also suggest looking into the eastern front of islamic imperialism. It was even nastier than the Western front because unlike Jews and Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and other Eastern religions were not considered People of the Book so werent given dhimmi status, it was convert or die. Only after millions were killed, the muslims realized they were killing off their tax revenue and gave them dhimmi status.”

    I know a bit about that one. But it is not a part of my focus, as I prefer to stick to Medieval European/Classical Islamic comparative history.

    And I’m sure not saying Islamic history is all good, either. I just try and get everyone to see both sides and compare the facts of history. There are many differences, but there are also many similarities.

  47. Pill,

    You can pretend to be anything you want, but all you’ve done so far is parrot (probably copy) from a lefty leaning academia book. You’re mindless and uneducated and it’s as simple as that. Everyone is an ‘honor’s scholar’ now. You’ve got a long way to go, and chances good you’ll never get there.

    I can remember reading about “supply/demand” curves on your website once when it was relatively new (full of typos and desperately requiring editing) as you elaborated how logical it was. I was thinking, “man, I had this is high school. This is the first week of Economics 101.” But I left you some lukewarm compliment to be nice.

    If Rutherford doesn’t like my comments concerning you, he can ban me. Trust me, I wouldn’t be losing sleep over it as I feel I’m doing him a favor being here by driving up traffic.

    ————————

    “R” – Joseph Smith was a fraud, like The Pill. Worse, I define him as such on authority of the Bible. I’m not going to elaborate as to why scripturally, as your even more clueless than “The Pill” when it comes to Christian theology. And speaking to somewhat that doesn’t even understand the basic tenets is both a waste of time and bores me. Don’t believe me and think that’s an excuse, big deal.

    However, I do admire how the Mormons live their lives, certainly admire them more than I do the left, and do consider a couple of them friends. As a general rule, they are both friendly, family oriented, well educated, and very polite. They certainly aren’t a bunch of head choppers screaming Allahu Akbar that the Pill wants to defend as equals. Elric is correct in that Pill is an outstanding example of moral relativism, unlike you the blatantly leftist, pagan shill. 😉

    Listened to your radio blog for a moment. Next tribute to your mom.

  48. “Would you consider it light reading, like those “For Dummy’s” books?”

    Its an easy read but it does back up everything it says.

    “There are many differences, but there are also many similarities.”

    A lot of more differences.

    “But that is still because they are applying their cultural practices, not their religious practices. And I am in no way excusing this sickening practice that should be aboloshed worldwide.”

    islam is very cultural. I think thats the problem that people have with understanding islam. They think of it as just a religion when its so much more. Just look at obama’s speech. He is addressing the “islamic world”. No one addresses the “Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, atheist or Christian world” . islam unlike any other “religion’, shapes everything in a persons life and that includes culture.

  49. Tex, first thanks for the compliment on the internet radio show. Reading fluent typo myself, I assume you meant “nice tribute to your mom.” As I said on the show, she would have been 72 this past June 3. She died at 67, laying weeks in a hospital suffering greatly and inconclusively diagnosed. I know enough now to know all it would have taken was a minimally invasive incision in the navel to scope around a bit in there and they could have saved her. Why they didn’t, I’ll never know. My sister and I wanted to sue the pants off them but my Dad didn’t and we had to accede to his wishes. If as you say Tex, there is a heaven and a hell, my lack of aggression in dealing with that hospital while my mother was still alive will be one of several things to deservedly send me straight to hell.

    With that said,

    Trust me, I wouldn’t be losing sleep over it as I feel I’m doing him a favor being here by driving up traffic.

    You ought to know me well enough by now to know I don’t ask for nor do I want any favors from anyone. When you stop enjoying the to and fro of debate here, get the hell out. I don’t need any “pity readers”. I hope I’ve made that abundantly clear. (And yes … I’m having a really sucky day and reading your “favor” garbage doesn’t make it any better.)

  50. islam unlike any other “religion’, shapes everything in a persons life and that includes culture.

    Elric, please tell me what you are smoking. I cannot think of a more “cultural” religion than Judaism and I speak from growing up on Long Island and knowing many Jews. There are Jews who don’t believe in God, don’t go to synagogue regularly and still consider themselves very Jewish. For those who practice more to the letter, their faith dictates how they eat, for some (the Hasidim) what they wear, and the list goes on and on.

    In fact, I’d be hard pressed to find any religion that does not have a serious cultural impact upon its practitioners.

  51. Tex: I am glad for you that you took high school courses that I did not take in high school. They didn’t teach it when or where I went to high school. I’m an old guy. Unfortunately, I had to wait until my health put me back in school to learn most of what I have learned on that topic.

    And since I am not an econ major, I am not seeing your overall point except, as in normal Tex Taylor fashion, to build up a weak straw man to attack, because that is the only game you have to bring. You talk constant shit and offer nothing to back it up, using the excuse that we’re all too stupid to understand your superior logic, and that being required to dumb it down for us idiots bores you. And so to make up for your own inadequate comminication skills, you resort to childish playground insults. It’s truely pathetic, coming from an educated man.

    Frankly, I could not care less what you think about me or my education. You might be college educated, too. But you obviously have your mind closed tighter than a polar bear’s asshole in wintertime. To me, that shows nothing but ignorance that no amount of education will ever change. And the most dangerous kind of ignorance, at that. The kind that people base hate on.

    And you have hardly driven up traffic around here. Half of your posts are requests to fix typos. I’ve been coming here since the Iowa Caucuses, and Elric came from Alfie’s site based on a comment by Rutherford. Alphie and twc came here on their own. Trust me, dude, you’re only a legend in your own mind.

    Elric: “islam is very cultural. ”

    There’s no doubt about that. But then how might we explain why the practice goes on in places in Africa that are not Muslim, or why other Muslim places do not practice it?

    To me, that suggests it is a practice rooted more into culture than religion. I’m also pretty sure that if there were any Koranic or hadith references promoting it, you would have shared them with us by now. 😉

  52. Sorry about the crappy day, Rutherford. I’m sure the back and forth arguement full of personal attacks isn’t making it any better.

    That’s why I’m done dealing with Tex until he learns to express himself in an adult fashion. And I apoligize for my own immaturity.

  53. Red Pill, no harm done. Some days my skin is thicker than others and today was just not one of those days. BTW, nothing serious going on. My daughter “water-boarded” my universal remote control Thursday night and after two days of fits and starts, it finally died this morning, costing me $200.00 for a replacement. I’ve been stewing about it all day today to my kid’s total oblivion and my wife’s great frustration.

    So Elric, Tex, Rabbit and Solar, if you wanna know if water boarding is torture, just ask my deceased friggin Harmony remote control! 😦

  54. Rutherford,
    I noticed in the comment you left on my blog. You sounded like Elric or Tex (no offense to any of you) 😀

  55. Solar, LOL … in tone or in political persuasion? Surely I didn’t come across as a conservative 😉

    Now, I might have come across a bit edgy, bordering on dismissive but the “water boarding is not torture” meme (sorry I hate the word meme) just makes my blood boil. So yes, that topic can drive me into Tex-speak. As for Elric, I don’t think I asked you about Obama’s GPA did I? 👿

  56. What’s this about, Elric? Just an inside joke, or are you suggesting that Obama is a poor academic achiever?

    TWC, even though Red Pill explained this, I’d like to throw in my two cents.

    A bunch of folks who just can’t seem to deal with Obama being in the White House have constructed a bunch of red herrings to divert attention from more important issues. The two top candidates are that “Obama is not a citizen and should not be President” and the other is “Obama was a lousy student”. I’ll give Elric this much credit, he doesn’t go down the citizenship path. I’m not quite sure why but he doesn’t. (Now that I’ve mentioned it, he probably will.)

    Now I have challenged Elric to produce the GPA’s of every President since Dwight David Eisenhower. This should all be common knowledge right, since Obama is the only one “hiding” this info? Elric has chosen to ignore the challenge. One of my readers whom I hope will forgive me for not crediting him by name (I just can’t remember … may have been Curator, may have been Shockandawed, may have been Marc) pointed out that Obama’s Magna cun Laude honors at Harvard Law basically suggest a minimum GPA (I think he said 3.4). For that matter Obama graduated from Columbia without honors so all bets are off on his grades there.

    Bottom line, the GPA comment is Elric’s lame attempt to rile me when he has nothing better up his sleeve. What is odd is that Elric has enough anti-Muslim ammo to fill a blog of his own so I don’t know why he feels the need to resort to the GPA dig. Just a little game of his. Oh TWC, I should let you in on my game too. I’ve told Elric that every time he references Obama’s GPA, I translate it in my head to read:

    Sincerely Elric, your biggest conservative fan and devoted reader. 😀

  57. Still cant find his GPA Dodger? Thought Obama was the most transparent president ever. And its not a red herring, you bragged how smart he is. I asked for his GPA from Harvard and its sealed. Why? If he is so smart and transparent, why is it sealed?

    And I dont care about every other presidents GPA. The thug in chief is in the Oval Office now.

    And anyone notice, when I slammed Dodger on Obama’s quotes from the qur’an, Dodger goes off on a tangent because he knows he cant defend Obama’s idiocy. 🙂

  58. “To me, that suggests it is a practice rooted more into culture than religion. I’m also pretty sure that if there were any Koranic or hadith references promoting it, you would have shared them with us by now. ;)”

    Im saying that the FGM going on in Eurabia is exclusively from the muslims. Is it in the ahadiths, Im not sure. ill have to shoot Robert Spencer an email and ask. If anyone knows it would be him. My guess would be that since islam is a misogynist “Religion”, thats why they do it. Most likely its in there. If the ahadiths teaches muslims how to defecate properly, im sure something about FGM is in there.

  59. Rutherford.

    The man who does not speak because he believes no one will listen, is not a noble man. The very act of trying to change hearts and minds through peaceful persuasion is a noble one, regardless of the consequences.

    Please keep that in mind as the consequences of the speech play out. FWIW I don’t think there will actually be any consequences to the speech since as the “Arab Street” says the speech was just words,new and fresh rhetoric but rhetoric just the same. Policy change will make them believers and the window is limitied.
    As for the thread:
    Christianity/Sword thing Christianity was spread by the sword and worse through it’s history. That’s a failing of so called Christians and has nothing to do with the actual faith and biblical teachings we still fail to learn to this day. Sad too many don’t see that and apply it equitably.
    Spelling mishaps happen.
    Name callingGood for dialog,really.
    Answers to questions and hypocrisy. Too funny. The GPA meme from the ultra Right is over Elric perhaps you didn’t get the memo from Rush. GPA hardly ever as impressive as the birth certificate thing but yeah let’s keep our teeth in it. Affirmative action notions and emotions aside BHO got in,stayed in and succeeded at Harvard. get the F$%^ over it. You remind me of the pathetic shits that squabbled over how O’s HLR piece was the “least cited”. Too freaking funny. He took a centrist please ’em all position which only pissed many off but much like an astronaut he still did something a limited number of people did. Tell you all something. Get into Harvard,graduate,publish and DON’T publish your GPA
    FGM The Europeans are actively fighting against the deed. The hymen issue seen previously in France shouldn’t be confused with FGM.

  60. Hey Fray, I dont get memos from Rush. Im more a Levin fan. But at least Rush didnt say that jiahd has nothing to do with islam like your boy Romney.

  61. Alfie,
    Christianity was not spread by the sword. For the first couple-hundred years christians were persecuted. Every one of the Apostles were killed in some less-than-humane fashiion except for one, who was exiled on an island. Until the Pope (which, as I’ve already said, was a terrible idea), Christianity was spreading fast despite those who hated it. The power of the Catholic Church lured people with bigger agendas than Wright and gave them powerful positions to force their greed for more power onto the blind populace. Until Martin Luther, few people could understand the Bible, and had to trust in the Church Heirarchy. That was when most of those atrocities that you would list, Alfie, ocurred. Those atrocities were ordered and often carried out by people less Christian, and much less civilized, than Rutherford.

    Much like how Dr. Tiller was murdered in the name of the Pro-Life movement, but without any support from anyone in the Pro-Life movement; atrocities were commited in the name of Christianity, but in direct contradiction to the values they claimed to posess.

    Also, because Christianity is a belief, it must be a choice made voluntarily. To spread it by the sword is not only in contradiction to its theology, but it also results in nothing but a twisted version of Christianity that will collapse and leave nothing but ammunition for those who disagree with it.

    The reason for the founding of Plymouth Rock was to worship God without being forced to believe what the Catholic Church had added on (such as Purgatory).

  62. Alfie, I think after every blog thread reaches about 70 comments, I need you to come in and deliver summaries similar to the pithy one you left today (seriously, no sarcasm intended). I got a major kick out of it. LOL

  63. How about a summary on your dodging……Dodger 🙂

    And Fray should since he doesnt get much comments on his blog. Doesnt help that he banned me. 🙂

    BTW hows that investigation going into digging up Obama’s GPA Dodger?

  64. Much like how Dr. Tiller was murdered in the name of the Pro-Life movement, but without any support from anyone in the Pro-Life movement; atrocities were commited in the name of Christianity, but in direct contradiction to the values they claimed to posess.

    Why is it so hard to believe the same cannot be said for Muslims? Why must we assume that the most violent of them represent the best that the religion has to offer? This seems patently unfair no matter how many links the devoted Robert Spencer fan, Elric throws into this thread.

    But I will give Elric credit for one value he brings to the blog. He does make me look things up now and then and I learn something. I hadn’t the foggiest idea what the heck FGM was until I looked it up. I don’t know why in the world Elric is laying female circumcision at the feet of Muslims. Anytime I’ve heard about this savage practice it had to do with African tribes and had nothing to do with Islam.

  65. Dont forget to vote Dodger

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/07/poll-obamateurism-of-the-week-7/

    “Why is it so hard to believe the same cannot be said for Muslims? Why must we assume that the most violent of them represent the best that the religion has to offer?”

    Because their “prophet” set the standard

    “I don’t know why in the world Elric is laying female circumcision at the feet of Muslims.”

    Probably because its a rising problem among the muslim community in Eurabia

  66. “He does make me look things up now and then and I learn something.”

    So there is hope for you. All I can do is provide you with the truth. Its up to you after that.

  67. Elric, between Red Pill and Alfie I think you got your GPA answer. I believe it was Red Pill who indicated Obama graduated magna cum laude and of course Alfie put the final coup de grace on it by suggesting, Elric that if only you could have been so fortunate to get into Harvard Law, get out of Harvard Law, get honors, and get to tell everyone that your GPA is really none of anyone’s friggin business you might have something to say.

    But I’ve been ruminating Elric. What phrase from me would lay your anti-Islam propaganda to rest?

    How ’bout this: Islam is a hateful religion practiced only by hateful people who wish to kill all non-Muslims. The only way to handle this “existential threat” (I love that phrase) is to wipe Islam off the face of the Earth.

    Would that do it, Elric? Would that phrase get me into the Elric Muslim-haters club? Or is there more subtlety to your position?

  68. “and of course Alfie put the final coup de grace on it ”

    Of course he would. He loves to carry water for the man that is destroying this nation piece by piece. He has better things to do like vilify the real bad people like Rush and Sarah Palin.

    “Would that do it, Elric?”

    Still with the dodging Dodger? Try responding to some of my posts before asking me some questions.

    Lets start with this one you dodged.

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026475.php#respond

    No shame at all.

    Just imagine if some muslim was murdered by a Christian or Jew and some Christian or Jew broke into the funeral and starting ranting “Mo-bomb-ed was a false prophet”. I just can imagine the press eating it up and the thug group CAIR jumping in calling the guy an “islamophobe”. But noooooooooo…..muslims are to be treated special and with kid gloves.

  69. Rutherford: “Elric, between Red Pill and Alfie I think you got your GPA answer….”

    Wasn’t me. I just about feel the same way as Elric on this one. I just don’t harp on it as much.

    I think Curator gave you the comment you are referring to.

  70. Solar: I was speaking to the wider spread of Christianity as seen in official status and national level exposure. That was indeed done via the sword in one form or the other. As for the Pilgrims. Yeah they were escaping persecution but ultimately they would tools for greedy folks looking for future trade options and the Pilgrims saw spreading the Word as important. Just ask a native American.

  71. “Is it me, or has North Korea been completely crazy ever since Obama was elected?”

    They were crazy before. They just ramped it up since they know Obama wont do a thing to stop them.

  72. I agree with 50% of Elric’s statement. I was under the distinct impression they were crazy before.

    Who knows, this may be a case of Biden’s dumb-ass campaign statement coming true, i.e. the North Koreans see a new President and want to see just how much rope the new guy will give them.

    It is an interesting paradox. A country armed to the teeth with nukes (USA) telling other countries they can’t have them. Yet there is no doubt the average cop can be more trusted with a gun than the average criminal (or psycho as the case may be). I am much more comfortable with our having nukes than I am with North Korea or Pakistan having them.

    In the average duel, which cowboy is really gonna agree to “you put down your gun, I’ll put down mine”? Quite frankly, I’m a bit amazed that a good 60 years has gone by without our blowing each other to smithereens.

  73. A comment about the FGM article posted by Elric (comment 91) and a question for Rabbit based on comment 92.

    The article states that it is a myth that FGM does not occur in predominantly Muslim countries. That is fine. I don’t see the author advocating the abolition of Islam. In fact, even if the correlation is dead on, I’m not sure what good it does you. You still have to reform the legal systems in these countries to stop the FGM from going on. It’s a bit like the argument that black neighborhoods have a higher crime rate. So what? What does that statement say that helps solve the problem? Incarcerate all blacks? Of course not. The only way to stop FGM is through tough laws combined with social enlightenment. And by the way, while Christians may not advocate FGM, they are hardly progressive in their views towards sexuality.

    My question to Rabbit, which I think he has at least partly answered elsewhere in this blog is this: Based on your experience working in prisons, was Islam a force for good in the prison or a force for bad or no real influence one way or the other?

    P.S. One of the “Muslim converts gone bad” cited in article number 92 was said to have had an otherwise normal upbringing in a “broken home”. LOL what does that mean? Sociologists will tell you that children of divorce already have two strikes against them. How about digging deeper than the bugaboo Islam for why folks behave violently?

  74. Something that I do find alarming:

    Elric brought up the disparity in coverage of the shooting of Dr. Tiller vs the shooting of Pvt. Long. I think I’ve given it enough time to voice my own concern at this disparity. Almost a week after Tiller’s shooting Rachel Maddow and/or Keith Olberman were still covering aspects of it including possible conspiracies. This on the face of it does not bother me. But I give Elric credit for concern over the total lack of coverage by the MSM of the shooting of Pvt. Long. I won’t even get all bothered by what Obama chooses to comment on or not. But it is the responsibility of the press to shed light on all significant events in the news. The Long shooting has admittedly gotten short shrift. It is a shame.

  75. Elric: As a general rule, I don’t click links that aren’t supported by at least a taste of the information found at that link.

    I want a general idea of what is there before I click.

    Just saying….

    Rutherford: Obama finally made a statement on the shootings outside the recruiting station. 2 days late. I suspect he took the 10 seconds to write it during his multi-hour plane ride to cozy up to the Saudi king before going to Cairo.

  76. On FGM, let’s look at this another way.

    Gun violence in America is widespread. I think I am probably safe in guessing that we have the most gun-violent society on Earth.

    America is also seen as largely a Christian society. The fact that some people believe Christianity to be the foundation of our civilization certainly supports that.

    So does that mean there is a direct corellation between gun violence and Christians?

  77. “So does that mean there is a direct corellation between gun violence and Christians?”

    I dont see a correlation between devote Christians and gun violence. I do see it with gangs.

  78. “I won’t even get all bothered by what Obama chooses to comment on or not.”

    Why not? I thought you said he LOVED the military. Seems he loves late term abortion doctors more. At least you see the media blackout on it. There is some hope for you.

    “Based on your experience working in prisons, was Islam a force for good in the prison or a force for bad or no real influence one way or the other?”

    Jihadists love to recruit in the prison system, what do you think?

  79. “I dont see a correlation between devote Christians and gun violence. I do see it with gangs.”

    So if you don’t find a corellation between gun violence and Christianity, even though the most gun-violent nation is predominantly Christian, then why would you insist that FGM and Islam have a corellation just because it takes place in many Muslim countries?

  80. “So if you don’t find a corellation between gun violence and Christianity, even though the most gun-violent nation is predominantly Christian”

    No since Christianity predates guns.

  81. Just for a chance at 100 again.
    Elric you shouldn’t confuse my wanting to whack BHO on facts as opposed to dreams and myths as me carrying water for him. I’m working on a goodie regards the 600k summer jobs.
    Jihadists and Romney btw way off topic. It’s actually consistent wording for Mitt it just caught the wrath of the Right in the cycle.
    FGM: Red you’re trying I’ll give you that. let’s see if I can help. FGM even per FrontPage isn’t in the Quran. Also it is generally accepted that even in the universality of Islam there are numerous sects,sub sects and tribal level variants.FGM is found there for those reasons,just like it is found amongst the non Islamic folks in the same areas.
    I will also add that I find it weird that as a group of males talking about vaginas,more so vulva this is what we’re speaking of.

  82. “No since Christianity predates guns.”

    Christianity predates the Catholic Church, too. So that logic is beyond lacking.

  83. Red, (this comment relates to number 99
    Have you noticed the link between inner cities (where Christians are few) and gun violence?

    Have you also noticed the link between belligerent, barely civilised (in best case scenario) nations and Islam? Those nations include Iran, Pakistan, and even the region of Darfur?

  84. I will also add that I find it weird that as a group of males talking about vaginas,more so vulva this is what we’re speaking of.

    Well I didn’t want to risk trivializing FGM but I was sorely tempted to ask where is the outrage about MGM (and I ain’t talkin’ the movie studio either) which goes on in hospitals all over this country. Elric, where’s your raised fist at the Jewish people who started this barbaric practice? 😉

  85. Solar, man did you lose me on this one. There are few Christians in inner cities? What are our inner cities full of., atheists? I think you pulled that demographic data out of your shorts dude.

  86. I worked in some of the toughest juvenile facilities in the nation. They usually ranged from 13 to 22 . Murders, rapists, gangsters. All that being said, I was not working the big house. So I don’t feel I’m any kind of authority on true prison life.

    When it came to the security of the prison, Islam was a good thing. It seemed give self respect to the true adherents. They also prized reading and learning more.

    Now, there are some heretical prison sects that I would have to say were much more gang orientated then a religion. (In fact, all gangs pose as a religion to some extent). We had many that were in a group called the 5% of the Nation of Islam.
    In the traditional “Nation of Islam”, some dude from Detroit named Fard claimed divinity and Elijah the seal of the prophets. Obviously, very heretical. 5%ers take it a step farther, all adherents claims to be Gods themselves and superior to whites.

    The weird thing is I got along with them. In fact, I got along with every gang except for 2. Illegal immigrants who either did not speak English or faked like they didn’t (MS-13) and the Bloods. The Bloods hated me and the feeling was mutual.

  87. Rutherford, FGM forever destroys female pleasure during sex. Uh…..Dead Rabbit has endured MGM and can’t last 5 minutes.

    Nice try, cultural relativist, but off base as usual.

  88. It just occurred to me that the better GM does, subsidized by the Tax payer, the worse Ford will do. They will unfairly lose market share and jobs.

    Fuck GM.

    Buy Ford!

  89. You ought to know me well enough by now to know I don’t ask for nor do I want any favors from anyone. When you stop enjoying the to and fro of debate here, get the hell out. I don’t need any “pity readers”. I hope I’ve made that abundantly clear. (And yes … I’m having a really sucky day and reading your “favor” garbage doesn’t make it any better.)

    😆 😆

    I knew that would chap your ass. 🙂

    The fastest way to get under a lib’s skin is to either mock their intellect, patronize their written word or feign pity. I’m just gigging you old friend and you bit. You told me I had been a little too civil and you thought I might be slipping, so I left THE PILL a ‘Chenlike’ tribute for old times sake.

    Yes, nice tribute to your momma. Sounds like a lady I would have liked to have met.

  90. “Who knows, this may be a case of Biden’s dumb-ass campaign statement coming true, i.e. the North Koreans see a new President and want to see just how much rope the new guy will give them.”
    –Rutherford

    WARNING RANT WARNING RANT NOT FOR CONSUMPTION. NOT LOOKING FOR ANY RESPONSE

    First of all, if its true what’s so dumb ass about it? Second of all, this has so far been much more then a minor dispute over, say, a war plane. Are you honestly implying that Biden’s words are causing this?

    How bout this for the blame game. The North Koreans are evil, just like Bush said they are…(a few years before the moron took them off the terrorist nation list).

    So far, everything, EVERYTHING, is going down just the way McCain said it would in the debates. Iran mocks us every time Obama whispers his sweet nothings. North Korea is acting more aggressive then I can ever recall in my 35 years.

    There is no plan for Gitmo. We don’t even know if its constitutional to bring the stink beards here. Yet Obama feels the need to promise the world they he will….uh….move Gitmo to a new Gitmo…this one….uh….merely closer to our cities????

    why?

    Where’s the fricking jobs????? Half my friends are unemployed? Where are the promised jobs? Rutherford….why was it so rushed? I’m screaming in a dream where nobody can hear me. WHERE ARE THE JOBS? The latest report here in Michigan is we will be at 16% unemployment by next year. The money is going to the birds! Literally! (bird research in the U.P.)

    5 times the national debt. 5 times!!!!!! WTF??????

    For what?????? What???????

    20 billion to GM for nothing. NOTHING. They were bought by us anyways. HOW STUPID!

    Government health care without enough doctors. Rationed health care by idiots. I busted my ass for 8 years without health care. I finally got it and there is no way I am going to keep it if this passes. Its simple math. More people, same amount of Docs!!!!!

    Dude. Simple numbers, simple math, NOT ignoring obvious reality. Reason. If one just makes use of these elementary skills, it becomes so obvious that Obama will go down as the President who set America back 4 generations.

    The dye (die? dy? dice?) has been cast. There is no going back. Obama is screwed. His legacy of the first black president will be a side bar to the utter cluster fuck he is to leave behind.

    Rutherford will either go insane or change his mind on the change he used to believe in.

  91. Solar: “Red, (this comment relates to number 99
    Have you noticed the link between inner cities (where Christians are few) and gun violence?

    Have you also noticed the link between belligerent, barely civilised (in best case scenario) nations and Islam? Those nations include Iran, Pakistan, and even the region of Darfur?”

    You would have to first convince me that there are few Christians in the inner city, which I do not believe to be the case.

    As to the 2nd question, I do not accept that as a link, because there are many non-Muslim countries that would also fall under the catagory of “barely civilized.” Several of which are very near to or in the Southern Hemisphere.

    Geography is the link I have noticed. Not religion, or even culture.

  92. There is no going back. Obama is screwed. His legacy of the first black president will be a side bar to the utter cluster fuck he is to leave behind.

    Speaking of cluster f*ck, Rutherford’s Ringling Brothers blog’s next article brags of Benevolent Barack being able to walk and chew gum simultaneously. Looks to me like Barack gets the gum to his mouth and chews like hell before swallowing it like a little girl, walks in concentric circles and ends up further back than where he started, and thinks it’s a good idea to spend more money with another possible proposed stimulus package, when the first one is showing no signs of working. Hell, just two weeks ago, he announced (1) We are out of money, and (2) the deficits unsustainable. Am I the only one picking up how mealy-mouthed this flimflam is? He’s worse than I ever imagined.

    Benevolent reminds me of the addle brained home owner who starts a bunch of projects, but never gets any of them done as the house appears in more disarray. And people like Rutherford believe that is highly effective management. In corporate America, we used to call that Dilbert.

    Has Obama demonstrated the ability to accomplish anything of substance yet, besides quadrupling the deficit in less than 50 days. Unless you consider Dhimmitude a real accomplishment (see below), I give Benevolent a shit star for achievement so far.

  93. LOL Tex … I was just saying to my wife this evening, “Dammit, I let Tex get my goat!”

    OK, I’m busted … you caught me on a lousy day and I shot before pulling the pistol out of my pocket. I’m back in form now. 🙂

  94. DE SENO: Obama’s Christian-Muslim Double Standard: Our First Dhimmi President

    By Tommy DeSeno

    With every speech he gives, President Obama goes further and further in diminishing Christianity in America while inflating Muslims here and around the world.

    For Americans this appears to be at best an incredibly bad choice of rhetoric or at worst the manifestation of a prejudice hidden in Obama, finally making its way out.

    To Muslims though, it has a much deeper meaning tied to the concept of “Dhimmi,” the subjugation of other religions to Islam. I’ll define that in more detail at the end of this column, but first let’s examine the proof that Obama is diminishing Christians while inflating Muslims.

    It started in a speech he gave in 2007 when he stated, “Whatever we once were, we’re no longer a Christian nation.” At that same speech he criticized Christian leaders, claiming they have used their religion for political purposes.
    I guess he thinks “Jihad” is a Christian word.

    He repeated again that “America is not a Christian nation” a few weeks later. Little was made of it during the Presidential campaign because the media protected Obama from controversy at all costs. Either that or they just didn’t grasp for themselves the “Dhimmi” implications Obama’s words had for Muslims around the world.

    One of his campaign promises was to give a speech “in a major Muslim capital” in his first 100 days in office.

    The only such speech he made was in Turkey. At a press conference before his speech, Obama said, “[O]ne of the great strengths of the United States is — although as I mentioned, we have a very large Christian population, we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation…”

    He went on to say that America is also not a Muslim or Jewish nation, but no one has ever assumed that. His point therefore was to once again make sure the world knew he doesn’t consider America, comprised of 78.5% Christians, a “Christian nation.”

    Three times in two years is enough, Mr. President. I fully understand you don’t consider America a “Christian nation.”

    Perhaps what the President is referring to is that America has a secular government. We do, after all, have a secular Constitutional Republic that explicitly allows no state religion while allowing the practice of any religion.

    The question then becomes does he see nations that are majority Muslim the same way? Has he made it a point to tell them three times they are not “Muslim nations?” In hypocritical fashion, no he hasn’t.

    If Turkey was his first speech in a “Muslim capital,” why does he call it that? Like America, Turkey is a secular Constitutional Republic that explicitly allows no state religion while allowing the practice of any religion. See the double standard? According to Obama, Turkey is Muslim but America is not Christian.

    In his speech in Turkey, as with his speech today in Egypt, President Obama told of his being from a “Majority-Muslim” nation – Indonesia. “Majority-Muslim” is Obama double speak that allows him to point out the Muslim aesthetic of a country without saying “Muslim Nation.” Again, note the double standard. Like America and Turkey, Indonesia is a secular Constitutional Republic with no state religion while allowing religious freedom.

    To further diminish American Christianity and inflate Muslim presence here, on June 1st President Obama told French television, “If you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we’d be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world.” In his speech in Cairo today, he put the number of Muslims in America at 7 million.

    According to the CIA World Factbook, there are only 1.8 million Muslims here. President Einstein miscalculated by almost 400%.
    He isn’t even right about the USA Muslim population being “one of the largest Muslim countries in the world.” Assuming his overinflated number, there are between 30 and 35 countries with more Muslims than we have, and if we stop him from lying and use the real number, the American Muslim community ranks about 50th in size. Certainly not one of the largest.

    Once again we see an attempt by Obama to inflate Muslims by overstating their size and saying America would be “one of the largest Muslim countries,” but three times he has insisted America is “not a Christian country,” despite that we are ranked #1 in the world in Christian population and the birthday of Christ is an American national holiday.

    The significance of Obama’s attempts to raise the Muslim status into something bigger than it is, while diminishing Christianity, is tied to the concept of what in the Muslim world is termed “Dhimmi.”

    “Dhimmi” is a status historically given to Christians and Jews in Muslim countries. It is a lesser legal status with lesser rights.

    Political rights are curtailed. The practice of Christianity and Judaism is allowed only by accepting the subjugation of those religions to Islam, and Christians and Jews pay a tax to the Muslims. The entire concept revolves around the idea of accepting that Christians and Jews are lesser people, while Muslims are greater people.

    Obama has made no bones about his wanting to get on the good side of Muslim nations. He clearly has no reservations about diminishing Christians, consistent with Muslim “Dhimmi” tradition, to do so. Sadly, it’s a racist gesture.

  95. “Rutherford, FGM forever destroys female pleasure during sex. Uh…..Dead Rabbit has endured MGM and can’t last 5 minutes.

    Nice try, cultural relativist, but off base as usual.”

    Just so you know, Rutherford, “MGM” usually goes on within the first few days of a child’s life. FGM goes on when the child reaches sexual maturity. She is usually taken to some street doctor, literally on a street corner. She is then held down by loving relatives while a starnge man cuts at her private parts with a piece of sharp glass.

    There is no comparison, my friend.

  96. “R”,

    I may think you’re a loon, a misfit, and a neopagan.

    But you also know I find you interesting, and do believe you have a talent for asking legitimate questions…you write well.

  97. To Rabbit’s various recent posts:

    You do know I was kidding about the MGM don’t you?

    The transformation of GM to Government Motors may actually drive (pardon the pun) some customers to Ford so don’t be so sure this will hurt Ford.

    Biden’s statement was dumb-ass from a political perspective, not from a truth or non-truth perspective. Just look at the fallout it caused and the way McCain leaped on it.

    Why do I always attack these comments before bedtime when I’m too damn tired to look up statistics? Rabbit, jobs have been created and more jobs will be created. It takes time and patience and yes even with that said companies will probably lay off faster than new jobs can be created. We will probably hit double digit unemployment. But I still believe innovation in green technology and cutting our dependence on foreign oil will result in more jobs down the line.

    I agree with you on GM.

    I am becoming concerned about health care (see my newest post).

    Look, life sucks right now. Obama never said he had a magic wand to fix it all overnight. Sadly there is only one party speaking with any intelligence right now. If we had two articulately stated points of view, we might be able to arrive at better solutions. Unfortunately the Republican party is on life support, having suffered a brain death. Heart still beating, but not a brain wave anywhere in sight.

  98. Red Pill:
    I know the difference between MGM and FGM … it was in part, A JOKE, albeit perhaps in poor taste.

    Second, I did it deliberately to get a rise out of Elric to see if he extends his mutilation fixation to Jews. He hasn’t bitten yet.

  99. My parents also forced me to get penis enlargement. I have suffered dearly. I’m a circus freak.

  100. Elric the Newsweek editor, no matter how you want to spin it, simply said that Obama is the teacher-in-chief. It’s a role he plays effortlessly. And the beauty of it is once we stop acting like our enemies (e.g. bring an end to torture), we can speak on the world stage with the moral authority to back it up.

    It does not make one God to speak with moral authority. Ministers do it all the time. It’s about time that our President took the world stage and spoke from the side of right, not might makes right.

  101. Tex, I’m happy to report that based only on your post, DeSeno is an ass. 🙂

    The bulk of his critique involves Obama getting the number of Muslims wrong. And quite frankly, I’d be more comfortable if DeSeno quoted something like … THE CENSUS. WTF is this CIA World Fact Book and where can I get a copy? Wonder if it is more accurate than the CIA’s measure of Saddam Hussein’s WMD arsenal. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Sorry to break it to Tommy but we are not a Christian nation and Tommy knows exactly why, celebration of Christmas be damned.

    What Tommy fails to understand is the basic premise at work in our recent behavior towards predominantly Muslim nations. Through words and deeds, the Bush administration made otherwise peaceful Muslims prey for extremists groups. Obama is trying to un-ring that bell. How does he do it? By saying that we do not have a Christian country battling Muslim countries. He is trying to prevent “the war on terror” from looking like a religious war … unlike the presidential briefings of George Bush which came complete with Biblical quotes.

    I suspect Tommy is really trying to say Obama is a secret Muslim but he doesn’t want to sound more like an ass than he already is. Either he is a secret Muslim wanting to reduce America to dhimmi status, or he is too dumb to know the secret code that Muslims are hearing when he talks.

    Yes, Obama owes Tommy thanks for telling him that he is blowing a dog whistle that only Muslims can hear.

  102. Rutherford. the CIA uses the Census when it can. Muslims come in at .6% of the population. The CIA uses the 2007 est of 307.212,123 for the us population. So the CIA is ok there. I will also stand the middle and state that the USA by best and worst does indeed rate between the 23rd and 47th “most muslim”. which all things considered isn’t a bad stat given how many nations there are on the globe. Around 266 btw.

  103. “It’s a role he plays effortlessly.”

    LOL Thats hilarious. Like when he quoted jihadist versus in the quran as peaceful verses?

    “On that program, the journalist cooed, “I mean in a way Obama’s standing above the country, above – above the world, he’s sort of God.”

    Your deflections, lies and dodging doesnt cut it Dodger

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