Was Lincoln Wrong to Save the Union?

January 15, 2013 at 8:39 pm 448 comments

256px-Abraham_Lincoln_smallI’m taking a break from spouting off my opinion (well, at least until the comments section) this week to ask a philosophical/political question of my readers.

When it comes to Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Libya and Syria we are famous for supporting civil unrest against cruel leaders. We view self-determination as a great American virtue. We believe in government governing with the consent of the governed. So why didn’t we simply let the Confederacy exist?

I clearly don’t support slavery even if we remove the racist element and simply justify it as a means to a commercial end. Still the Southern states felt abused and oppressed by the Northern states and by Washington in general.

In James Buchanan’s wiki biography it states that he felt it was illegal for the Southern states to secede but it was illegal for the US to stop them. Therefore he left a disintegrating country to his successor, Abraham Lincoln. What kind of history would we have had if we simply let secession happen? Could we have existed as two separate countries, the United States and the Confederate States? Like East and West Germany, might we have eventually merged back together of our own volition without all the bloodshed of the civil war?

These thoughts occur to me as I look at the seemingly incurable polarization in modern society. Ignoring California, which in many ways is just a sociopolitical twin of the Northeast, many of our conflicts seem to split East/West and North/South based on cultural differences. The most striking is the latest debate on gun control where some of the most vociferous voices against control come from the South and West and the cry for greater control comes from the North and the East.

Was Lincoln and by extension, the United States, hypocritical not to let the South have the government they wanted back in 1861? What do you think?

Respectfully,
Rutherford

Photo by D. Van Nostrand [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons

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  • 1. poolman  |  January 15, 2013 at 9:15 pm

    When it comes to Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Libya and Syria we are famous for supporting civil unrest against cruel leaders.

    Is that what we’re calling it? I thought the word was meddling. I guess we ought survey those we’ve liberated.

  • 2. Rutherford  |  January 15, 2013 at 9:44 pm

    Well Poolman, that’s another point entirely.

  • 3. Ken  |  January 15, 2013 at 10:27 pm

    No, he wasn’t but it goes to the core of the difference in that one group believes in, looks to, seeks to grow, and yields to the Federal Government and the other group actually understands the Constitution. ;)

  • 4. dead rabbit  |  January 15, 2013 at 11:17 pm

    Those dirty rebels opened up on Fort Sumter first…,

  • 5. James  |  January 16, 2013 at 12:36 am

    The conflict between national sovereignty and states rights had never been fully resolved.

    As so often happens, brute force, not a court or vote decided the outcome.

    The government should have let the people vote, but our intact nation benefited the cause of freedom more than it otherwise would have.

    The United States was a counter balance for the free world in WW1, WW11 and the Cold War. Had we not been united or operated as allies , the world would be different than it is.

  • 6. dead rabbit  |  January 16, 2013 at 12:41 am

    Good point James. For all our faults, this world would be 10,000 times worse without us, I don’t care what Noam Chomsky thinks.

  • 7. Noah  |  January 16, 2013 at 4:22 am

    More of your people Poolman..rate them right up there with a certain baptist church we all know and love.

    “The sincerity of that anguish was questioned by a group of conspiracy theorists who call themselves “truthers,” Salon reported earlier this month. These truthers have so far posted Rosen’s personal information online, created fake social media accounts using his name and harassed him via email and phone.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/15/gene-rosen-sandy-hook-conspiracy-theory_n_2481912.html?utm_hp_ref=crime&ncid=webmail1

  • 8. Noah  |  January 16, 2013 at 4:45 am

    Is it just me or is there something wrong with the Department of Justice? 26 year old Aaron was charged with 13 felony counts and faced 35 years in prison for sneaking into MIT’s library to use its network to download millions of scholarly articles from a publisher that declined to press charges.

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57564212-38/prosecutor-in-aaron-swartz-hacking-case-comes-under-fire/

  • 9. James  |  January 16, 2013 at 10:12 am

    Its not just you, noah.

  • 10. PFesser  |  January 16, 2013 at 10:25 am

    Rutherford – this is OT for this post, but a friend sent me the link from the WSJ this morning. partial dup @ Fat Grannies.

    An interesting article in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal by Jeff Shapiro, prosecutor for Washington, DC during the DC gun ban. I apologise for the length; I can’t post the link, since you have to be a subscriber, but here are a few pertinent paragraphs:

    “By JEFFREY SCOTT SHAPIRO

    In the wake of the horrific elementary-school shootings in Newtown, Conn., last month, many Americans, desperate to do something in response, have decided that much stricter gun control is the answer. Democrats have proposed reinstating the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, and Sen. Dianne Feinstein has proposed legislation that would even restrict the use of some semiautomatic handguns.

    As a former prosecutor in Washington, D.C., who enforced firearms and ammunition cases while a severe local gun ban was still in effect, I am skeptical of the benefits that many imagine will result from additional gun-control efforts. I dislike guns, but I believe that a nationwide firearms crackdown would place an undue burden on law enforcement and endanger civil liberties while potentially increasing crime.

    The D.C. gun ban, enacted in 1976, prohibited anyone other than law-enforcement officers from carrying a firearm in the city. Residents were even barred from keeping guns in their homes for self-defense.

    Some in Washington who owned firearms before the ban were allowed to keep them as long as the weapons were disassembled or trigger-locked at all times. According to the law, trigger locks could not be removed for self-defense even if the owner was being robbed at gunpoint. The only way anyone could legally possess a firearm in the District without a trigger lock was to obtain written permission from the D.C. police. The granting of such permission was rare.

    The gun ban had an unintended effect: It emboldened criminals because they knew that law-abiding District residents were unarmed and powerless to defend themselves. Violent crime increased after the law was enacted, with homicides rising to 369 in 1988, from 188 in 1976 when the ban started. By 1993, annual homicides had reached 454.

    The Washington, D.C., Metropolitan Police Department also waged a war on firearms by creating a special Gun Recovery Unit in 1995. The campaign meant that officers were obliged to spend time searching otherwise law-abiding citizens. That same year, the department launched a crackdown called Operation Cease Fire to rid the District of illegal firearms. But after four months, officers had confiscated only 282 guns out of the many thousands in the city.

    Civil liberties were endangered. Legislative changes empowered judges to hold gun suspects in pretrial detention without bond for up to 100 days, and efforts were made to enact curfews and seize automobiles found to contain firearms. In 1997, Police Chief Charles Ramsey disbanded the unit so that he could assign more uniformed officers to patrol the streets instead, but the police periodically tried other gun crackdowns over the next decade—with little effect.

    In 2007, a panel for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit ruled that the city’s gun ban was unconstitutional. Senior Judge Laurence H. Silberman wrote in the majority opinion that “the black market for handguns in the District is so strong that handguns are readily available (probably at little premium) to criminals. It is asserted, therefore that the D.C. gun control laws irrationally prevent only law abiding citizens from owning handguns.”

    The ruling was affirmed the following year by the Supreme Court in District of Columbia v. Heller. Justice Antonin Scalia’s majority opinion said that citizens were guaranteed a right to keep firearms that were in common use in their homes for self-defense, but that the government could pass reasonable regulations concerning firearms and ammunition.

    Heller created a panic among gun-control advocates because it condoned the ownership of semiautomatic handguns, which are among the most common firearms in use but also the target of many restriction efforts. Supporters of the District gun ban maintained that because a semiautomatic handgun could potentially be converted into a machine gun—a class of firearms not expressly protected by Heller—they were in fact machine guns and therefore not protected by the Second Amendment. In response, Congress threatened to pass a law that specified the legality of semiautomatic handguns in the District. To avoid the embarrassment of being dictated to by Congress, the D.C. Council passed emergency legislation in September 2008 amending the gun ban to allow ownership of semiautomatic handguns for home defense.

    Since the gun ban was struck down, murders in the District have steadily gone down, from 186 in 2008 to 88 in 2012, the lowest number since the law was enacted in 1976. The decline resulted from a variety of factors, but losing the gun ban certainly did not produce the rise in murders that many might have expected.”

    Emotional arguments, especially when the fruits of one’s emotions affect others, are not reliable or appropriate. I think Mr. Shapiro, who was THERE, has credibility; certainly most of Congress reads the WSJ every day. Hope so.

  • 11. James  |  January 16, 2013 at 11:35 am

    Human Events “The Vindication of Mitt Romney”: During the campaign, Romney told a crowd he had read a report saying Jeep was thinking of moving its production to China.The denials and derision which followed contributed to Romney’s losing the election. Chrysler has now announced they will begin building Jeeps in China and Russia because the price is more competitive there.

    Romney also mentioned Mali, and no one but the French cared.They sent troops there because they were tired of waiting for American help;.

    Since the gun ban in Washington DC was struck down, the number of murders has fallen from 188 in 2008 to 88 in 2012.Ending the ban wasn’t the only reason, but it certainly didn’t raise the murder rate.

    One Romney was in command of more information than Obama was.

    We are in a so far peaceful civil war with mostly low information emotional people fighting other emotional folks who pay more attention to the facts.

    “Where have you gone” Mr. Lincoln? “A nation turns is lonely eyes to you.”

  • 12. Ken  |  January 16, 2013 at 11:38 am

    PFesser- Great post/link!

    Rutherfor- Where’s your blog article on the greatness of the new New York gun legislation? I can’t wait to respond to that. ;)

  • 13. Ken  |  January 16, 2013 at 11:43 am

    Oh and how about the Presidential limos once again having license plates with the tagline of “Taxation without Representation” as a protest around Washington DC not having representation in Congress.

    In otherwords, a bid for an automatic Democratic Senator!

  • 14. poolman  |  January 16, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    As to our own Civil War, was it the right thing to do? When IS war justified? How do you motivate men to kill, often members of their own family? There has to be an intense propaganda campaign. An elevated level of fear or threat MUST be perceived as was the case regarding ideology and politic. This is much like what our ‘leaders’ and media does to MANipulate™ us today. Distort and deceive, divide and conquer. We really are like sheep in search of a shepherd, just following the herd.

    Regardless, the war was fought and ‘won’ by the Union. This paved the way for a new more powerful union, comprised of winners AND losers. The ideological divide did not go away, but force was now imposed on all to promote uniformity. That force has increased in power and reach steadily since.

    Do we recognize our fascism? Probably not so much, since it has crept upon us. It is obvious when/if you can stand back and get a broader view, something Americans are often unable or unwilling to do.

    …the American government appears to be following the Nazi playbook. The U.S. government – like the SS – may label anyone who disagrees with government policy as crazy or a potential terrorist … and is claiming more tyrannical powers that even Hitler claimed.

  • 15. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    “An executive order makes Biden’s task force unnecessary. The notion is ridiculous on its face.”

    “Huck I don’t see the point of getting hot and bothered by a Biden brain fart.”

    “President Barack Obama signs 23 executive actions on gun control, separately asks Congress to pass gun-control laws”

    “Would you like to compare Obama to predecessors?

    Obama 144 181 so far
    Bush 171 first term
    Clinton 200 first term
    Bush 41 166
    Reagan 211 first term”

    It is time to concede that you were wrong and that we were right, Rutherford.

  • 16. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    Make that 167 executive actions. I added with the wrong number.

  • 17. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    A gun story with a happy ending — involving another irresponsible gun owner.

    http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/20/boys-make-the-right-move-with-loaded-gun-in-theater/

  • 18. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 1:57 pm

    HUH? Huck 167 puts him past Bush 41 and still leaves him behind all the other Presidents since Reagan. Sorry … YOU are wrong and I am right. He has relied on executive orders no more than any other modern POTUS.

    Try again.

    BTW, I’ve read through the 23 executive orders (at least, the one line version of them) and they are nothing to get hot and bothered about. Most seem symbolic with very little actual punch. None of them bypass legislative authority.

    1. “Issue a presidential memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.”

    2. “Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.”

    3. “Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system.”

    4. “Direct the attorney general to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.”

    5. “Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.”

    6. “Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.”

    7. “Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.”

    8. “Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).”

    9. “Issue a presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.”

    10. “Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement.”

    11. “Nominate an ATF director.”

    12. “Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations.”

    13. “Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.”

    14. “Issue a presidential memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.”

    15. “Direct the attorney general to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies.”

    16. “Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.”

    17. “Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.”

    18. “Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.”

    19. “Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.”

    20. “Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.”

    21. “Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges.”

    22. “Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations.”

    23. “Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health.”

  • 19. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    “HUH? Huck 167 puts him past Bush 41 and still leaves him behind all the other Presidents since Reagan. Sorry … YOU are wrong and I am right. He has relied on executive orders no more than any other modern POTUS.”

    That wasn’t what I was talking about. That was simply an update of the running tally.

    You claimed that Biden misspoke and all but said we were crazy to take him at his word that Obama was going to sign executive orders regarding guns and all but said Noah was full of crap for even suggesting it.

    The issue wasn’t about how much punch they had or whether or not the bypassed legislative authority. The claim was that he was going to enact executive orders regarding gun control…and that is exactly what he did.

    You were wrong and we were right. You can say it…it’s easy, trust me. Trying to qualify it now will just make it worse.

  • 20. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    I reviewed them, too. The only one I find potentially troubling is #4. It seems a bit open-ended, which I don’t like.

  • 21. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    “YOU are wrong and I am right. He has relied on executive orders no more than any other modern POTUS.”

    I never claimed otherwise. While I have been wrong on this forum many times, this wasn’t one of them.

  • 22. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    Also….

    “I haven’t had a chance to read details on this but damn it makes NO sense. The LAST folks who deserve a raise are Congress and after the hell they’ve given Obama, why would he push the raise through?”

    Change in Scheduled Pay Rates for Members of Congress

    So let’s go ahead and make it 167.

    And he still has a few days left….

  • 23. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    Damn! 168.

    (See this is why I am a social scientist!)

  • 24. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    “Each hour a kid spends in front of a violent video game is an hour Mommy & Daddy are ignoring their kid.”

    First of all…this should extend to any video game. But what if a parent is also playing the game along with the kid? I bring it up because I have played shoot-em-up video games with my kids on many occasions.

  • 25. Noah  |  January 16, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    One can hope.

  • 26. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    Two great articles: the first calling for focus on the magazine not the gun:

    Put a five-round magazine in an AR-15 and you no longer have an assault-style weapon. You have the world’s ugliest varmint rifle. A Glock becomes a plastic six-shooter, capable of holding a burglar at bay but not capable of a Virginia Tech-style rampage.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/to-save-lives-shrink-gun-magazines/2013/01/15/2636c1c2-5b7b-11e2-9fa9-5fbdc9530eb9_story.html

    This from a Vietnam vet:
    I served a tour of duty with a Marine rifle company in Vietnam; while covering the Lebanese civil war as a newspaper correspondent, I was seriously wounded by AK-47 fire. From both the giving and receiving end, I am intimately familiar with what these weapons are designed to do, and that is to kill people. As many as possible as quickly as possible.

    I’m also a hunter who owns shotguns and bolt-action rifles, none of which can hold more than five rounds. Not only do regulations in most states prohibit hunters from entering the field with the firepower of an infantry platoon, it’s considered unsportsmanlike. Apparently, we value the lives of our deer and ducks more than we do the lives of our children.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/semi-automatic-firearms-are-weapons-of-mass-destruction/2012/12/21/cb3e35fa-4b8c-11e2-a6a6-aabac85e8036_story.html

    I lied — three great articles:

    [Myth] 5. The Second Amendment was intended to protect the right of Americans to rise up against a tyrannical government.

    This canard is repeated with disturbing frequency. The Constitution, in Article I, allows armed citizens in militias to “suppress Insurrections,” not cause them. The Constitution defines treason as “levying War” against the government in Article III, and the states can ask the federal government for assistance “against domestic Violence” under Article IV.

    Our system provides peaceful means for citizens to air grievances and change policy, from the ballot box to the jury box to the right to peaceably assemble. If violence against an oppressive government were somehow countenanced in the Second Amendment, then Timothy McVeigh and Lee Harvey Oswald would have been vindicated for their heinous actions. But as constitutional scholar Roscoe Pound noted, a “legal right of the citizen to wage war on the government is something that cannot be admitted” because it would “defeat the whole Bill of Rights” — including the Second Amendment.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-gun-control/2012/12/21/6ffe0ae8-49fd-11e2-820e-17eefac2f939_story_1.html

  • 27. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 3:11 pm

    More of your people Poolman..rate them right up there with a certain baptist church we all know and love.

    I seldom find myself on the same side of the fence as Noah but on this, we agree 100%. I’ve found Poolman’s reaction to Sandy Hook pretty abominable.

  • 28. poolman  |  January 16, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    BTW, I’ve read through the 23 executive orders (at least, the one line version of them) and they are nothing to get hot and bothered about. Most seem symbolic with very little actual punch. None of them bypass legislative authority.

    1. “Issue a presidential memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.”

    Hello? No ‘punch’, you say? Symbolic, my ass. It’s just one more twist on the squeeze press or a few degrees closer to boil.

    WTF is ‘relevant data’ and who decides? Who is this ‘federal background check system’? Sounds like cloak and dagger to me. So much for rights and righteous laws. I must say these tentacles are getting fairly constrictive and hopefully most obvious.

  • 29. Noah  |  January 16, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    Put a five-round magazine in an AR-15 and you no longer have an assault-style weapon. You have the world’s ugliest varmint rifle. A Glock becomes a plastic six-shooter, capable of holding a burglar at bay but not capable of a Virginia Tech-style rampage.

    Take us step by step Rutherford. Let us use the school shooting as an example and list for us, 1-20, one for each child lost, the number of lives that would be saved should this shooter have had 5 round clips. I don’t see the logic behind it, show explain it to me in this context.

    “Myth] 5. The Second Amendment was intended to protect the right of Americans to rise up against a tyrannical government.

    This canard is repeated with disturbing frequency. The Constitution, in Article I, allows armed citizens in militias to “suppress Insurrections,” not cause them. ”

    This is getting really old R. A total misrepresentation, thus discrediting your entire post. No one is looking to cause one, it is to rise up should the government forgets that we are its boss, not the other way around. We are not the cause, we are the response to a government gone bad.

  • 30. Noah  |  January 16, 2013 at 3:27 pm

    1. “Issue a presidential memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.”

    Lets not forget at somewhere around 1500-1510 in Oblamacare about medical implanted tracking devices. It lists 7 medical reasons the devices can be used to track an individual, the 8th being stated, “or any other reason as deemed necessary.”

    Did we ever get any information on our murdered diplomat or fast and furious?

  • 31. poolman  |  January 16, 2013 at 3:54 pm

    I seldom find myself on the same side of the fence as Noah but on this, we agree 100%. I found Poolman’s reaction to Sandy Hook pretty abominable.

    I seldom read Noah’s posts and only read the link to presume what the stink is.

    The people that believe in coincidence will see no problem with these easy to verify facts. These are what others have proven are common markers.

    1.) DHSConducted an exercise at Sandy Hook Fire Department involving an elementary school shooting 27 months before the real shooting.

    2.) Eric Holder was in the Sandy Hook community 17 days before the real shooting to promote Project Longevity, the Justice Department’s gun violence initiative.

    3.) 50 miles away at the same time the actual shooting took place, a staged gun attack on an elementary school was being played out by authorities with two killers named Adam and Ryan. Actors, local, and federal agencies were involved.

    Those are 3 of many coincidences that aren’t, imo.

  • 32. Just a Lurker  |  January 16, 2013 at 4:14 pm

    “This canard is repeated with disturbing frequency. The Constitution, in Article I, allows armed citizens in militias to “suppress Insurrections,” not cause them. ””

    Earlier I heard on the radio a man repeatedly state the reason for the 2nd Amendment was to overthrow a tyrant or tyrannically government and screaming this or that about the Constitution. It makes one wonder if he had actually read the Constitution or just the earmarked pages.

  • 33. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 4:52 pm

    Of course, if the government is suppressing constitutional freedoms to the extent that a popular uprising might occur as result, then it could be argued that the insurrection has already taken place.

  • 34. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    During the campaign, Romney told a crowd he had read a report saying Jeep was thinking of moving its production to China.

    James, don’t unearth this old turd. Romney and his crew tried to convince people that production was “moving”, i.e. plants here would close and people would be laid off. Jeep NEVER denied that they were going to build cars in China for the Chinese market which is the custom anyway.

    Document for me where Chrysler has announced a Jeep plant shutting down in the states and moving to China.

    James … he lost … let it go man, let it go.

  • 35. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 4:57 pm

    Where’s your blog article on the greatness of the new New York gun legislation?

    I don’t know the details yet but I’m guessing it goes a bit too far. I’m in the “ban high capacity magazine” camp now, not the “ban the gun” camp.

  • 36. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:00 pm

    Oh and how about the Presidential limos once again having license plates with the tagline of “Taxation without Representation” as a protest around Washington DC not having representation in Congress.

    I heard about that this morning. All it is is an inaugural parade stunt that provides catharsis to DC citizens. Obama refused to use the license in 2008. This time he caved.

    Bottom line, it means nothing.

  • 37. Noah  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:01 pm

    So what your telling us Rutherford is you dont have a logical argument as to how any children would have been saved by a 10 round clip vs a 30?

  • 38. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:04 pm

    “An executive order makes Biden’s task force unnecessary. The notion is ridiculous on its face.”

    I only addressed Huck’s numbers game. My apologies.

    When I said that in the prior thread, I thought the prevailing wisdom was that Obama was going to independently issue executive orders that would make Biden’s work superfluous. What has actually happened is that Obama’s orders are an outgrowth of Biden’s work. And as I stated earlier, the orders do not bypass appropriate congressional action.

  • 39. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:08 pm

    You were wrong and we were right. You can say it…it’s easy, trust me. Trying to qualify it now will just make it worse.

    FWIW, 38 wasn’t an attempt to qualify but simply explain why Noah’s one-liner seemed ludicrous to me. Granting that I read too much into what Noah wrote, yes he was right and I was wrong.

  • 40. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:09 pm

    Huck, I can see how #4 might raise some eyebrows. That one was written for Poolman and his crew to have fun with. It just BEGS for a conspiracy explanation.

  • 41. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:12 pm

    I never claimed otherwise.

    We’re back to what I originally thought was sarcasm on your part when you said something to the effect “and since Obama sparingly uses executive orders …”. Since you claimed you were being literal not sarcastic … I was wrong there too.

  • 42. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:16 pm

    But what if a parent is also playing the game along with the kid? I bring it up because I have played shoot-em-up video games with my kids on many occasions.

    I was referring to the Adam Lanza type of kid who spends hours alone every day doing this stuff. It’s one thing to blame the content of the game, but how about the parent who could be actually be having a relationship with the kid?

    A parent playing those games with the kid at least affords the opportunity to say “you know this is pretend right? You know it really isn’t cool to kill people, right?”

  • 43. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:18 pm

    Yup Noah, keep posting Alex Jones. It speaks volumes about you.

  • 44. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:22 pm

    I find this one almost humorous…

    13. “Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.”

    It suggests that less than maximum effort has gone into enforcing and prosecuting existing laws regarding gun violence.

    Fast and Furious, anyone?….

    15. “Direct the attorney general to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies.”

    That one looks like Obama-speak for some more private sector subsidies.

  • 45. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:27 pm

    “It’s one thing to blame the content of the game, but how about the parent who could be actually be having a relationship with the kid?”

    I think this is a big part of the problem when it comes to youth violence. You have kids creating mail-order arsenals and pipe bombs and such in their bedrooms and the parents don’t know squat because they think because the kid is locked in his room isn’t outside getting into trouble.

  • 46. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:30 pm

    No one is looking to cause one, it is to rise up should the government forgets that we are its boss

    Noah, according to you the government has already forgotten so why are you not in the street gathering your army? What’s the proper provocation that transforms insurrection into righteous revolution? I sure as hell hope you have some way of drawing the line.

    Applying the five round clip to Newtown is like you and I playing fantasy football. We can both apply what we believe to be common sense to the hypothetical and never come to an agreement. Suffice it to say, each child was shot multiple times. So we can at least say that’s two kids shot per clip. That involves 10 clip changes to kill 20 kids. Each clip change takes at least 1 to 2 seconds. Each interruption in shooting gives a kid a chance to escape the room, or bite the bastard’s leg or do something. That is assuming Lanza is this imaginary Clint Eastwood stuntman you all fantasize you will be in the crunch of things. What if Lanza drops a clip? What if one jams on him as he’s changing it?

    It’s a very simple bottom line … lower capacity clips interrupt the flow of slaughter even if only for a second or two and as all of you folks have told me every second counts. Remember? You need every second when the police are minutes away?

    P.S. Please remember … Jared Laughner was tackled while changing clips.

  • 47. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:35 pm

    9. “Issue a presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.”

    Huck, I kinda thought this one would remind you of F&F. :-)

  • 48. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    “P.S. Please remember … Jared Laughner was tackled while changing clips.”

    Fair enough.

    Also remember that he was using a hand gun, not an “assault rifle.”

    The point being…if we limit clip size, do we also need to ban semi-automatic rifles?

  • 49. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    Yes, it actually does. I must have overlooked that one.

  • 50. Huck  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    For the record…even though Obama’s executive orders today have pretty much derailed your blog article, Rutherford…I thought it was a good post. I didn’t comment on it because, frankly, I didn’t know how to answer.

    It was a thought-provoking question and kudos to you for posting it.

  • 51. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 5:41 pm

    Huck regarding 45, I think some parents have forgotten how to be their kid’s best friend. No I’m not saying “friend” in a way that undercuts parental authority but our kids are individuals with their own personalities and they are capable of having healthy enjoyable relationships with us.

    I seriously doubt Adam Lanza felt Nancy was his best friend. How much of that was Adam’s disturbance or Nancy’s mismanagement I don’t know.

  • 52. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 6:07 pm

    Thanks for 50, Huck. I outraged some of my Facebook friends who’ve known me for years with this one. :-)

  • 53. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 6:11 pm

    Speaking of Nancy Lanza, my initial anger at her role in this fiasco has been rewarded in a manner of speaking. She has become a forgotten ghost. The number of dead is always 26 not 27. The honors always go out to those at the school and she is never mentioned. In Obama’s comments today, the number was 26 and she again was completely ignored.

    It’s what she deserved for her recklessness in not keeping the guns locked up but it is a shame for what is left of her family who have suffered a loss too.

  • 54. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 6:19 pm

    The point being…if we limit clip size, do we also need to ban semi-automatic rifles?

    From the article I linked above, it appears that many of these rifles can also be fitted with low capacity magazines so the high capacity ban would allow these rifles to stay on the market.

  • 55. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 6:23 pm

    No, he wasn’t but it goes to the core of the difference in that one group believes in, looks to, seeks to grow, and yields to the Federal Government and the other group actually understands the Constitution.

    Ken, sounds like you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too. What Lincoln did was unconstitutional and therefore wrong, but he saved the union so in the long run he was right. Did I capture your take on it correctly?

  • 56. Noah  |  January 16, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    “Noah, according to you the government has already forgotten so why are you not in the street gathering your army? What’s the proper provocation that transforms insurrection into righteous revolution? I sure as hell hope you have some way of drawing the line.”

    Because only the intellectually inferior resort to the most extreme response in EVERY situation to qualify something. Have you in your worldly travels from your living room to the bathroom ever hear of preventative measures? We thinking people see where things are headed. We look at the big picture and we have drawn some logical conclusions. I would rather react now, while things are heading in the way of a disarmed public, rather than wait for them to show up at my door to take them.

    “Applying the five round clip to Newtown is like you and I playing fantasy football.”

    You chose to support this idea of limited clip size as a solution. It is only fitting that you show us how that would work, and why not use a resent event to show it?

    “Suffice it to say, each child was shot multiple times. So we can at least say that’s two kids shot per clip.”

    I saw nothing that each kid was shot 5 times, so your example is way way over stated.

    “Each interruption in shooting gives a kid a chance to escape the room, or bite the bastard’s leg or do something. That is assuming Lanza is this imaginary Clint Eastwood stuntman you all fantasize you will be in the crunch of things. What if Lanza drops a clip? What if one jams on him as he’s changing it?”

    So your logical argument, and reason to make this a law, would be based on reasoning like a child biting a leg, or maybe a clumsy criminal. Can you imagine if we regulated the rest of the world this way how many laws we would have? I imagine we would have almost no freedom left.

    “It’s a very simple bottom line … lower capacity clips interrupt the flow of slaughter even if only for a second or two and as all of you folks have told me every second counts.”

    So your solution is to focus, even for a moment, on the things that add a few seconds to a killing spree, rather than devote our attention to preventing them from happening in the first place? I do not understand this logic. To waste our time going after something that effects law abiding citizens, that hampers a criminal on the scale of a few seconds, seems to me to be a monumental waste of time and resources. Can you explain to me how it is not?

  • 57. Noah  |  January 16, 2013 at 7:09 pm

    If you needed another reason to avoid visiting a doctor, Obama just gave you a new one: as part of Obama’s 23 executive orders announced today, doctors will be transformed into gun control snitches who are ordered by Obama to ask patients about guns they might have at home.

    Here’s the doublespeak from the executive order text:

    Doctors and other mental health professionals play an important role in protecting the safety of their patients and the broader community by reporting direct and credible threats of violence to the authorities. But there is public confusion about whether federal law prohibits such reports about threats of violence. The Department of Health and Human Services is issuing a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits these reports in any way.

    What this means is that doctor-patient confidentiality is now history. Even worse, doctors are being pressed to start interrogating patients about whether they own guns so that this information can be reported to the government. What is the positive take on this, because it eludes me.

  • 58. Noah  |  January 16, 2013 at 7:11 pm

    Regulate this.

    http://www.secretsofthefed.com/make-a-working-gun-using-a-3d-printer-100-legal/

  • 59. Noah  |  January 16, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    And if you think I am the only one, think again. Obama may yet ignite a civil war.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=417665258315711&set=a.362561847159386.84375.361783440570560&type=1&theater

  • 60. Rutherford  |  January 16, 2013 at 7:36 pm

    What this means is that doctor-patient confidentiality is now history.

    When it comes to imminent threat, doctor-patient confidentiality was always up for grabs. I’ll look to PF to confirm this but it is my understanding that the only medically ethical approved violation of doctor patient confidentiality is when there is an imminent threat to the patient or a third party.

  • 61. Noah  |  January 16, 2013 at 8:17 pm

    If you cannot or choose not to see the forest through the trees on this R I cannot help you. Having doctors interrogating patients about guns? Really? Reporting on it? SS anyone? Gestapo anyone?

  • 62. James  |  January 16, 2013 at 10:10 pm

    Rutherford, I am going out on a limb and splitting hairs about the Jeep episode. According to SodaHead, Politifact called Romney’s jeep ad the lie of the year. Politifact claimed the story originated with a conservative blogger who twisted an accurate story into a lie. The Drudge Report linked to the story, and the Romney campaign ran with it.

    At one point, Romney inaccurately said production would be moved to China, and politifact wrote that “Like many distortions, Romney’s claim contained a grain of truth.

    Evil of indifference wrote that “Clinton admits Romney right on jeeps being made in China.” Bill Clinton said “you can’t make a jeep in America and send it to China-it weighs too much. it costs too much to send over there. All they are going to do is reopen their operations there and try to sell Jeeps there too”

    “Clinton’s remarks came just weeks after a Bloomberg report saying that Jeep has been considering opening production facilities in China. The Obama campaign has vigorously denied that report.” Romney was more right than the Obama campaign.

    Politicaususa wrote “Chysler slams Romney with facts, US production of our Jeep models had nearly tripled”

    Chrysler did not move jobs to China as Romney claimed it would. It created new jobs in China so it could sell more Jeeps. It was a good business decision. However, some Romney opponents implied no Jeep manufacturing jobs would be created in China when they will be.

    How is that for a split hair?

  • 63. dead rabbit  |  January 16, 2013 at 11:15 pm

  • 64. dead rabbit  |  January 16, 2013 at 11:30 pm

    “I saw nothing that each kid was shot 5 times, so your example is way way over stated.”

    Noah, I read they were all shot from 3 to 11 times.

    Rutherford….I too have thought about the disfunctional state affairs in the Sandyhook killer’s household. I hear you about having a close relationship with your kids. However, working with teen agers, I also see that some of the nicest kids get distant from caring parents with the best intentions. Don’t bet on your

  • 65. dead rabbit  |  January 16, 2013 at 11:32 pm

    relationship being any where as close as it is now when your daughter is a teen. I could be wrong.

  • 66. Just a Lurker  |  January 16, 2013 at 11:43 pm

    Noah – read this one
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolynmcclanahan/2012/07/23/gun-owner-rights-and-obamacare-yes-it-is-in-the-law/

    Yes they ask questions regarding your safety and well being. I was prescribed some of Rush’s favorite pain pills from a hospital visit. My new doctor asked where I kept them as I told her I have grandsons. She was very concerned that they might get a hold of them and insisted I put them in a very safe place. Personally, I found they did little to relieve my pain even after the worst was over. However they did put my head in left field but not in a good way. I found three aspirin did a far better job of killing the pain. But I was not asked about guns.

  • 67. dead rabbit  |  January 17, 2013 at 12:09 am

    You can add the Sandyhook killer to the majority of murderers in this country….his Dad left. In this regard, he is no different then the community that, for all practical purposes, give us the high murder rate in the first place, black people.

    Throwing a bunch of money at your former household doesn’t count as being a Dad.

  • 68. Noah  |  January 17, 2013 at 12:46 am

    2 more Sheriffs have announced they will not enforce the new federal gun laws. Sounds like a movement is forming.

  • 69. Huck  |  January 17, 2013 at 1:25 am

    Law enforcement officials who don’t enforce the law should either resign or be prosecuted.

    It isn’t up to those sheriffs to decide which laws to enforce any more than it should be up to Obama and Holder to decide which ones to enforce.

    There is a process in this country for dealing with laws we don’t like. Ignoring them isn’t one of them.

  • 70. Huck  |  January 17, 2013 at 1:32 am

    Actually, prosecution probably isn’t warranted..but termination would be.

  • 71. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 2:06 am

    James, I think you needed a microscope to split that hair! :-)

  • 72. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 2:09 am

    Rabbit you’re right, I shouldn’t be too cocky. I just wanted to make the point that blaming video game content with no mention of parental responsibility misses the mark in my book.

  • 73. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 2:21 am

    I read they were all shot from 3 to 11 times.

    I’m not sure where I heard this but I heard a story that one of the Sandy Hook mothers told a pol that if he wanted to attend her child’s funeral he needed to show up to the private viewing where the casket would be open. She wanted the politician to see not the beautiful photo that had circulated, but her actual kid with the bottom half of the face blown off. She wanted the pol to understand the truth of it.

    Folks can accuse me of using the kids as an emotional device all they want … I think everyone who spouts an opinion on the Sandy Hook tragedy should be forced to see the morgue photos. I wish all the “experts” had to have walked through those classrooms, which I understand looked like battle fields, not with fallen soldiers but fallen babies. Faces unrecognizable. Body parts blown off. This sick mofo wanted to slaughter these kids.

    Maybe after seeing the savage truth of it, everyone would go back to their ideological corners? But at least they’d have those haunting images in their heads to go along with their ideology.

    I believe Wayne LaPierre feels for the parents. I don’t really think he’s a monster. But I’d still like him to live with the images. December I went into the deepest depression I’ve ever been in in my life. Already full of anxiety about my finances, the Newtown slaughter was like a deadly virus that invaded my already compromised psyche. I’m finally coming out of it now. Even today during Obama’s presentation, I teared up. I can’t see the damn kid’s photos without tearing up. For some reason, the girls more than the boys … probably cos I have a daughter.

  • 74. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 2:27 am

    Throwing a bunch of money at your former household doesn’t count as being a Dad.

    Damn right. I’m beginning to be of the opinion that unless one spouse is beating the sh*t out of the other, it IS appropriate to stay together “for the sake of the children”. People divorce way too easily nowadays. And I don’t think they realize how much it f*cks up their kid’s life.

    I happened to notice a neighbor boy coming home from school today. He lives here only part time in some custody arrangement. I don’t see how the kid can’t be a bit f*cked up.

  • 75. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 2:29 am

    Sounds like a movement is forming.

    It’s called nullification. I’ll be hoping for some Fed enforcement if folks start acting like a$$holes.

  • 76. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 2:32 am

    But then I don’t think those sheriffs have much to worry about. The gun ban has a snow ball’s chance in hell of passing. The high capacity clips, maybe but even that’s a long shot. The improved background checks will probably get implemented.

  • 77. Huck  |  January 17, 2013 at 2:36 am

    I just wish we could know why. Even if his response would be “because I wanted to.”

    I read that he tried to screw up his hard drive and had the computer knowledge to do a pretty good job of it. It’d be nice if they could dig up something of an answer from that.

    On another note…I came across this gem yesterday.

    In 2006 Obama said:

    “Mr. President, I rise today to talk about America’s debt problem. The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can’t pay its own bills.

    “It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our government’s reckless fiscal policies. Over the past five years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to $8.6 trillion. That is ‘‘trillion’’ with a ‘‘T.’’ That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers.”

    And the GOP response was:

    “Mr. President, I urge my colleagues to vote in favor of final passage. Raising the debt limit is necessary to preserve the full faith and credit of the U.S. government.

    “We cannot as a Congress pass spending bills and tax bills and then refuse to pay our bills. Refusing to raise the debt limit is like refusing to pay your credit card bill — after you’ve used your credit card.

    “The time to control the deficits and debt is when we are voting on the spending bills and the tax bills that create it. Raising the debt limit is about meeting the obligations we have already incurred. We must meet our obligations. Vote for this bill.”

    They all make me sick….

  • 78. Noah  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:23 am

    “It isn’t up to those sheriffs to decide which laws to enforce any more than it should be up to Obama and Holder to decide which ones to enforce.

    There is a process in this country for dealing with laws we don’t like. Ignoring them isn’t one of them.”

    The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Our President does not get to dictate to us his take on the Constitution. So respectfully I disagree. Good men stand up, even to authority, when wrong is done. If the President wants to take what many of us deem to be illegal action, then good men need to hold their ground and refuse to let him.

  • 79. Huck  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:49 am

    “The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Our President does not get to dictate to us his take on the Constitution.”

    I agree.

    But it is up to the United States Supreme Court to tell him so, not the local sheriff.

  • 80. Huck  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:56 am

    It frustrates the hell out of me that we have an executive who refuses to enforce certain laws just because he doesn’t like them, and if I am going to hold him to a particular standard regarding the law then I have to hold others to the same standard when it is their job to enforce the law.

  • 81. Noah  |  January 17, 2013 at 4:11 am

    While I agree we have a process, I will say if Obama follows through then the process is broken. Those of us who value the words and the meaning behind them in the Constitution have a duty to stand against and oppose those that would twist and violate it. If Obama pass and EO telling us to kill the guy to the right of us, would you do it until the SC told us to do otherwise or would you stand against it based on its merits? Wrong is wrong, varying degrees matter very little to me.

  • 82. Noah  |  January 17, 2013 at 8:28 am

    Most transparent administration my ass.

    http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/freedomwatch-sues-gun-control/2013/01/16/id/471743?s=al&promo_code=11F8C-1#ixzz2ICB38nsW

  • 83. James  |  January 17, 2013 at 9:22 am

    71, yes, Rutherford, I needed a microscope to split that hair. I was just having fun.

    An indirect link to Drudge noted that the French are more fiercely fighting liberalism than we are.

  • 84. poolman  |  January 17, 2013 at 11:58 am

    Maybe after seeing the savage truth of it, everyone would go back to their ideological corners? But at least they’d have those haunting images in their heads to go along with their ideology.

    They won’t show any photos or videos. Not now. Not ever. That is telltale. No real evidence that would support an official narrative. Like video of the Pentagon on 9/11 (250 cameras always on). Or pictures of bin Laden from the supposed raid. Or security video from Aurora. Or security video from Sandy Hook. They had just installed a new security system at Sandy Hook using video. A visitor HAD to be buzzed in after his image was seen on the video screen. That was the only way one could get in at 9:30 am.

    Several FB memorial pages were set up days BEFORE the event. So, not only was this event tragic, but it involved real psychics. :roll:

  • 85. poolman  |  January 17, 2013 at 12:06 pm

  • 86. James  |  January 17, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    Poolman, you wrote “real psychics.”Maybe it did. My theory is not more far-fetched than yours. Lincoln, for example dreamed he had been shot and killed before the fact. I read somewhere that a strange message of an assasination reached a Salt Lake City office shortly before the murder.

    Buddy Holly’s wife had a strong premonition that he would die, and Buddy himself wanted to retire from Rock and Roll to write and produce. He toured one last time for the money. A man walked up to the couple when they were in New York City and told them Buddy he would die.His wife was deathly afraid of the tour and would have gone along to protect him, but she was pregnant.

    My grandfather, whom I never met had a premonition that he would die. He couldn’t sleep and stayed up most of the night before he left for a district drainage ditch meeting. After the meeting on a rainy dusk, a man didn’t see my grandfather and killed him with his car.

    Someone called Coast to Coast and said he had gotten a text message before the school shooting.

    I can spin a longer tale if you want.

  • 87. Huck  |  January 17, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    “I will say if Obama follows through then the process is broken.”

    If the executive follows through and the USSC allows it to follow through, or if the executive ignores a USSC ruling (as Jackson did), THEN the process is broken.

    “If Obama pass and EO telling us to kill the guy to the right of us, would you do it until the SC told us to do otherwise or would you stand against it based on its merits?”

    reductio ad absurdum

    “Maybe after seeing the savage truth of it, everyone would go back to their ideological corners? But at least they’d have those haunting images in their heads to go along with their ideology.”

    The same thing could be said of partial birth abortions.

  • 88. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    They all make me sick….

    Huck my hat’s off to you for showing both sides of the hypocrisy. This is the way the game is played. Whichever party is in the White House wants the debt limit raised and the opposition doesn’t. White House flips, then the congressional sides flip too.

    The only way in which I would say you’ve pointed out a bit of a false equivalency is I don’t remember during the Bush years (or prior) the debt limit becoming an extortion racket. In other words. Obama’s 2006 blather and even his vote were mere posturing. There was never any doubt the limit would be raised. Now we’ve got a crop of folks who are really willing to play Thelma and Louise with the nation’s “full faith and credit”.

  • 89. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    It frustrates the hell out of me that we have an executive who refuses to enforce certain laws just because he doesn’t like them

    It’s an interesting situation. I think there is a subtlety here that should not be missed.

    In Noah’s case, we’re talking local sheriffs refusing to enforce Federal law. In Obama’s case (I assume you mean DOMA and the “dreamers”) we’re talking about the big sheriff refusing to enforce Federal law. The difference I see is the difference between a prosecutor declining to prosecute a case vs the police refusing to make an arrest. The prosecutor has that leeway. The police do not. In this case, Obama is the prosecutor and the local sheriffs are the police.

  • 90. Huck  |  January 17, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    “Now we’ve got a crop of folks who are really willing to play Thelma and Louise with the nation’s “full faith and credit”.”

    Most of them are merely posturing, too. Look at how the Sandy pork bill vote turned out.

    It’s all just a game….

  • 91. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    A visitor HAD to be buzzed in after his image was seen on the video screen.

    Why am I answering this?

    Poolman, Lanza broke in through a window. He was not buzzed in nor to my knowledge did he try to be buzzed in. Use your head man — “hey here I am standing outside with an assault rifle and defensive armor, could you please buzz me in?”

    And when is the last time you saw gory crime scene photos in the media, ESPECIALLY of children?

    You know what I think Poolman? I think in these tough economic times, Santa Claus shot those 20 kids so he’d have fewer toys to deliver this season. Why don’t you chase down that bit of nonsense?

    P.S. Sadly if one of Poolman’s favorite sites blamed Santa, Poolman would be posting videos. :-(

  • 92. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    Great Mark Fiore video! I especially love Wimpy “I’ll gladly NOT pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.” ROTFLMAO! :lol:

  • 93. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    The same thing could be said of partial birth abortions.

    Absolutely.

    Just so we’re clear. It is my understanding that Obama opposed partial birth abortion legislation in IL because he felt it was superfluous. He felt that the code of medical ethics in place at the time forbade doctors from abandoning babies to die.

    Have I misread this? I’m basing it on a YouTube video posted by someone else on this board a few months ago in which Obama was recorded giving his reasoning.

  • 94. Huck  |  January 17, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    “Have I misread this?”

    I am no expert on why Barack Obama does what he does, but my comment was not exclusive to him.

  • 95. Ken  |  January 17, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    @R#55 “Ken, sounds like you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too. What Lincoln did was unconstitutional and therefore wrong, but he saved the union so in the long run he was right. Did I capture your take on it correctly?”

    No, what you captured was the ridiculous nature of your snake-head-eating-itself, if-my-aunt-had-balls-she’d-be-my-uncle post.

    My answer was a clear “No”, but I took the opportunity to point out that it may have been the genesis for the shift to a big Federal Government, so we have Lincoln to thank for the end of Slavery (although he was originally for allowing slavery to exist, but only in States where it originally existed as a compromise) and for the increased power of the Federal government. Just like Progressives/Liberals have NIXON to thank for Farm Subsities, OSHA, the EPA, Welfare reform. Earth Day, etc.

    (I don’t have an issue with OSHA or the EPA, by the way.)

  • 96. Huck  |  January 17, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    Back in the ’90s (I believe it was), there was an ad that ran very late at night that showed the corpse of a partial birth abortion baby. I was unfortunate enough to have seen it. It was disturbing and was a difficult image to get out of my mind. Due to public outrage, the ad only ran that 1 time.

  • 97. Ken  |  January 17, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    @R #73 In the future, anytime you want to use “I’m not sure where I heard this but…” can you replace it with “I was watching MSNBC and…” for the sake of accuracy?

    Thanks! ;) :D

  • 98. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:10 pm

    Ken, ain’t it amazing how much better old Tricky Dick looks as the years go by? ;-)

    if-my-aunt-had-balls-she’d-be-my-uncle

    LOL Gang, this will give you some notion that my sister does have SOME influence. Notice Ken didn’t use the “if my uncle had tits” alternative.

    BTW, Ken, maybe I misunderstood you but seriously, you don’t think the question posed by the post is worth considering? I think you’re focusing on the “what would have happened” part of it vs the question of ideological hypocrisy and self-determination.

  • 99. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:14 pm

    Regarding 97 … oh great, my brother-in-law is turning into El Tigre. Hell, maybe El Tigre has been my brother-in-law all this time? That would be one sick joke.

    I know Ken is too smart for a steady diet of Fox News so I can’t toss my usual rejoinder at him. Damn!

  • 100. dead rabbit  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    “Maybe after seeing the savage truth of it, everyone would go back to their ideological corners?” -R

    If you are trying to make the claim that I, for one, haven’t been extremely emotionaly impacted over Sandyhook, you have no clue about the way my mind works. No clue. I still struggle with it. Never has a “news story” depressed me more. 911 didn’t even have the emotional impact as that shooting.

    Every night since it happened I think about. And often during the day.

    As for Poolman, I hope you are enjoying it. You have giggled and winked at him for years. I’m glad you finnaly realize what a piece of garbage he is.

  • 101. poolman  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    Lanza broke in through a window.

    Is that the latest official version to explain the broken window? So are they saying it was broken by the shotgun they found in the trunk, or by other means? Never mind. Like all official narratives, it will change as officials deem necessary. I’ll wait for the Hollywood version.

    P.S. Sadly if one of Poolman’s favorite sites blamed Santa, Poolman would be posting videos.

    Though Santa does have very sinister origins, I don’t think it has been suggested. There are some crazy notions. There are plenty of disinformation spreaders out there getting media attention.

    Really, it’s sad that today most are easily controlled by officials playing our emotions and deceiving us into gladly accepting their draconian statutes. How can we be so dumb? I see it has been a long time in the making. If we were truly a great nation or a compassionate people, we would spend a quarter of our war budget on solving solvable situations. But, noooooo. We would rather feign outrage over an overall insignificant event compared to what is still going on everywhere everyday every minute.

    And don’t get me started on Christians…

  • 102. dead rabbit  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:21 pm

    Poolman…..If I ever find out where your funeral is one day…..I’m going to piss on you in front of your buck tooth family.

  • 103. poolman  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    Garbage in, garbage out. Rabbit’s no canary. Try stool pigeon.

  • 104. dead rabbit  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    Every time I read about the hostage situation in Algeria I hear the voice of that lying loyal lap dog Rice making a complete fool of herself because Barry Soetorro told her to.

  • 105. James  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:39 pm

    This is just from memory Rutherford, so I could be wrong.

    My recollection is that the bill was introduced after at least one nurse claimed she was forced to let an aborted baby die.The state senator who introduced the bill also discovered that in other cases, babies were taken into another room and left unattended until they died.

    Thus, the bill was not superfluious. It was based on reality.

    A doctor around 2000 testified that he estimated about 5,000 partial birth abortions occurred each year.

    Obama opposed the bill, because by defining a pre- viable fetus as a person the bill also defined that person to be subject to other constitutional rights. By extending the protections to a fetus less than nine months old abortion would be effectively outlawed.

    I believe he also thought abortionists who let babies survive could be subject to lawsuits.

    I’ve seen images of unborn babies being aborted at late stage. They can feel the pain.

    The Tonight Show spoofed the image of two unborn twins pushing and kicking each other. That part was real. Then one twin hit the other with a folding chair.

  • 106. Ken  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:39 pm

    @R #98/99

    I think the reality is that we would have bitter enemies to the south of us (I grew up in the North) and that a lot of American greatness would have never been realized both domestically and our role internationally.

    But, the point I was making is that in that moment the “self” of self-determination became the State instead of the states and lead us down the road we are on today. The Federal Goverment justified its role as having more dominion than it should setting up the progressive overreaches that have been the hallmark of the Feds.

    Hypocritical yes, beneficial yes. In hindsight the correct thing to do, but only because this is the only reality we can ever know.

    “I know Ken is too smart for a steady diet of Fox News so I can’t toss my usual rejoinder at him. Damn!”

    You are correct, no Fox News for me. Can’t stand them. My MSNBC comment is born out of watching it. Sometimes for information, many times for entertainment. Fox News makes me sad, MSNBC makes me laugh. I like to laugh.

  • 107. James  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:52 pm

    Right on rabbit. The Algerian hostage taking is traceable to Obama’s failed Middle East strategy. Combine that with Obama’s shameless use of children as emotional props and we have a miasma which stinks like a land fill. Obama cares as much for the children and hostages as he cared about the post abortion babies.

    Getting angry is pointless, so I’m now letting Lonnie Donegan cleanse my mind. He was the king of skiffle and one of the creative forces which gave us our modern music.”My Old Man’s a Dustman” “Does Your Chewing Gum Lose its Flavor on the Bed Post Over Night?” “Rock Island Line”,” Grand Coulee Dam”, “The Wabash Cannonball” and many others.

    If you have never heard his music, you have missed one of the founders of modern music.If his music fails to make you smile or tap your feet, you have no soul.

  • 108. Noah  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:52 pm

    http://www.westernjournalism.com/civil-wars-a-brewin/

    Just in case you thought I was the only one.

  • 109. Noah  |  January 17, 2013 at 3:59 pm

    What Oblama says: “Because of the protections guaranteed by our Constitution, each of us has the right to practice our faith openly and as we choose,” the President wrote. “As we observe Religious Freedom Day, let us remember the legacy of faith and independence we have inherited, and let us honor it by forever upholding our right to exercise our beliefs free from prejudice or persecution.”

    What Oblama does: The sad fact is, under President Obama, Americans have been forced to fight for their religious liberty in the courts. More than 110 plaintiffs are fighting the HHS mandate, and that’s hardly the only religious liberty battle being waged.

    http://blog.heritage.org/2013/01/17/obamas-religious-freedom-proclamation/?roi=echo3-14268332624-11011846-7674de16f8e6e0e5b4ad339de4fcf6bb&utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Morning%2BBell

  • 110. James  |  January 17, 2013 at 4:01 pm

    I forgot Lonnie Donegan-My Dixie Darling, also on YouTube The performance was restored from an old 16mm film.

    Its better than the carnage in Algeria.

  • 111. PFesser  |  January 17, 2013 at 4:04 pm

    James -

    My all time favorite fun song is, “Tie Me Kangaroo Down, Sport!” by Rolf Harris. He’s still knocking around in Au, they say. It was the first illegal music download I did, about ten-twelve years ago. I’m pretty fond of Mungo Jerry’s “In the Summertime” too.

    When I was in college my wife and I fantasized about a “super-tape,” containing all our favorite songs. I have generated and added to such a recording since then, with about 200 songs. It’s pretty eclectic, with music ranging from Viva Las Vegas by ZZTop, Georgia on My Mind by Ray Charles to Ghost Riders in the Sky (1949) by Vaughn Monroe.

    Now is a good time to have some cheer-you-up music around.

  • 112. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 4:08 pm

    There are plenty of disinformation spreaders out there getting media attention. — Poolman

    Is there an antidote to overdose of irony?

  • 113. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 4:10 pm

    If you are trying to make the claim that I, for one, haven’t been extremely emotionaly impacted over Sandyhook

    I wasn’t thinking of you at all Rabbit. In fact I know this one upset you pretty badly.

  • 114. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    Ahhh Rabbit … I KNEW IT!!! You’re working for Central Command!!! :shock:

  • 115. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 4:21 pm

    MSNBC makes me laugh. I like to laugh.

    Crazy Larry can be a hoot. :-)

    in that moment the “self” of self-determination became the State instead of the states

    Agreed, which is exactly what I was trying to get at in the post. A country truly interested in government by the consent of the governed would have said goodbye to the South and let the chips fall where they may.

    And I agree the consequences of that choice would probably not have been good.

  • 116. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 4:27 pm

    James, Rock Island Line is great:

    “Engineer said before he died
    ‘Two more drinks that I’d like to try’
    Conductor asked him what could they be
    ‘A hot glass of water and a cold cup of tea’”

    I think you greatly overstate the case on Obama. The man has two daughters. If you think Sandy Hook didn’t upset him then you truly believe the man has no soul.

  • 117. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 4:30 pm

    Just in case you thought I was the only one.

    No, there’s you AND Alex Jones AND Rush Limbaugh AND Glenn Beck AND …. an entire list of imbalanced folks, many of them, media whores.

    Enjoy your civil war Noah. Send me your address so I can send condolences to your widow. :sad:

  • 118. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 4:33 pm

    PF I love the grunts in “In the Summertime”. Hell, I’ll listen to it just to grunt along with him.

  • 119. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 4:33 pm

    I wonder what Alfie’s take is on the Algeria situation? Last I heard the hostages escaped.

  • 120. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 4:34 pm

    Am I the only one here who until today NEVER heard of Manni T’eo?

  • 121. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    A good opportunity has come up for me to revisit why some of you (Rabbit and Tex of old) have been wrong about my attacks on Sarah Palin.

    I’ve been accused on several occasions of going after her baby. I’ve always responded that I was going after HER.

    Now the NRA is being accused of going after Sasha and Malia Obama and I offer the same defense to them (believe it or not) that I offered myself. They are (very stupidly) calling Barack Obama an “elitist hypocrite” for providing his daughters armed security while he wants gun-free zones for the rest of us.

    This is NOT an attack on Malia and Sasha. To say it is, is an attempt to inflame folks, just as my comments about Sarah vis-a-vis her youngest child were NOT an attack on the child. They were an attack on Sarah just as this NRA ad is an attack on Barack Obama.

    Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not defending the ad. It is one of the dumbest things to come down the pike because Secret Service protection of the First Family is not something the POTUS requests. It is something that comes with the job. So the entire premise of the ad is ridiculous. In fact, I’m pretty sure one of the downsides of being President is having the SS around you and your family all the time.

    But I just wanted to make the point that criticizing a father or mother regarding some aspect of their relationship with their child is NOT the same as criticizing the child.

    Notice, by the way, the picture of David Gregory with the politicians. LOL I guess old Wayne LaPierre wanted revenge on Gregory for the Meet the Press interview of a couple of weeks ago.

  • 122. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 5:17 pm

    Any thoughts on the fact that the NRA’s Wayne LaPierre blamed violent video games for the Newtown shooting spree and then the NRA released an iPhone target practice app (originally rated for kids 4 and up … that was changed to 17+ I think)?

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57564450-93/nras-iphone-shooting-app-triggers-petition-for-its-removal/

  • 123. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 5:19 pm

    Correction: according to the article the app was changed from kids 4 and up to kids 12 and up.

  • 124. dead rabbit  |  January 17, 2013 at 5:53 pm

    The NRA add is perfect. Many of these limousine liberals and movie stars have armed guards protect their family while they tell us commoners we shouldn’t own guns. I think it makes a great larger point.

    As I recall Rutherford, you were contesting the fact that Sara Palin was the mother of Trig or whatever the name. Garbage gossip like that isn’t in the same universe.

  • 125. James  |  January 17, 2013 at 5:56 pm

    111 Pfessor, I like those songs too.:Like you, I tried to make a long sound track .Now,I think of songs to be played at my funeral.

    You might also like the The Fendermen Mule Skinner Blues on YouTube. One video shows the two surviving members singing the song 46 years after they had their hit.

    Another version is The Wilson Family-Muleskinner Blues. They sound as if they had just come out of the mountains.

    Rutherford, you would probably like the songs too.

    Since Bengazi, I see Capt. Masey when I look at Obama, so maybe I am judging him too harshly. I am sure he would be distraught if something happened to his daughters or other people close to him. For me, the jury is still out on the children who are strangers.

    I agree with you on 121. Guarding and defending our leaders is not elitist.

    Mail online reports that up to 35 hostages were killed. Algerian helicopters bombed an oil plant and killed 35 workers and 15 captors. Algerians made the attack without warning allies. An unknown number of hostages escaped.

  • 126. dead rabbit  |  January 17, 2013 at 6:00 pm

    The NRA was attempting to change the violent elements of first person shooting games.

    I like that they are going in the right directio….addressing culture. Sport shooting vs blowing people’s heads off in an online virtual reality. Turn MSNBC off and do the math for yourself.

    They need to come out strong against those “zombie rounds” I’m always bitching about.

    http://www.hornady.com/store/Z-MAX-Bullets/

  • 127. Rutherford  |  January 17, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    Rabbit,
    I said all sorts of nasty things about Sarah as it related to Trig. Doesn’t matter if it was gossip or not. You missed the point. I was accused of making fun of the the kid. I was making fun of the mother. Similarly the NRA is being accused of going after the kids. They’re not, they’re going after the father. Same logic. Your gossip point is irrelevant.

    As to the NRA ad itself, you don’t prove the bigger point by being wrong on the smaller point. Celebrities and Hollywood types choose security. The President does not. So you’re not making sense. Their “example” of hypocritical elitism is completely ridiculous. Now if they wanna use Madonna, that’s fine. But Obama … stupid with a capital S.

    Then you go for the trifecta by defending the NRA iPhone game. You’re kidding right? The objects that the kids are supposed to “shoot” at look like propped up coffins. If you can’t see the hypocrisy of decrying violent video games and then releasing your own version of a violent video game, then Houston, we have a problem.

  • 128. poolman  |  January 17, 2013 at 7:47 pm

    It really is too little too late on taming these games and overall video violence. The question as to whether these influences have any long term negative effect is no longer debatable. Not only is the influence evident in the minds of developing children but also on the conscience of the population as a whole.

    The 3-year-old boys in my class on Sunday morning take ordinary wood blocks and pretend they are guns and shoot each other. It’s a part of our American culture. We think it’s cute, of course until real bullets are flying, then it’s a big shock. We want to blame crazy, but we created crazy. Why are we surprised?

    I get hungry watching a couple hours of TV and commercials due to marketing, even if I have just finished my dinner. In the same way, our kids are constantly indoctrinated with gun violence and shooting. It is a learned thing. It is part of accepted American culture.

    The days of ‘Honest Abe’ are long gone. We no longer expect truth from our elected officials. When did it become okay to lie? Our leaders do it daily with NO ramifications. With the latest NDAA passing, they now have a legal right to deceive us.

    Yet we expect our children to learn to be honest and exhibit integrity? It doesn’t work that way. We know it yet expect a different result. Until we hold our leaders accountable, I cannot see any chance of turning this world around. Actions are always more important and influential than words.

  • 129. dead rabbit  |  January 17, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    If you can’t see the difference between claiming a retarded baby to be a bastard and pointing out that the president enjoys perks he’d probably be fine with outlawing me from enjoying, I don’t know what to say.

    I agree its kind of weak in that Obama doesn’t choose said perks. But don’t pretend you are being some fair minded soldier of truth becuase you…cough…believe Obama’s daughters aren’t being slurred. Oooh. Thanks for bestowing the get out of jail free card.

  • 130. Alfie  |  January 17, 2013 at 10:05 pm

    Was Lincoln and by extension, the United States, hypocritical not to let the South have the government they wanted back in 1861? What do you think?
    Short answer is no. Lincoln showed leadership.

    I wonder what Alfie’s take is on the Algeria situation? Last I heard the hostages escaped.
    I think it is something to be expected.If it means anything I differ from my friends here in that I don’t see any credible connection to 1600 Penn per se. For sure we are not providing much in the way of leadership in Africa which is kind of bizarre given our presence in the east like Djibouti.
    Currently I feel there is a weird neo-imperialism thing going on all around the African continent. I think it would be a really good idea if folks in the USA and Western Europe brushed up on those pages in the history books.
    Back to Algeria specific. I like Algeria and have more than a little respect for how they operate. I think it was right for them to spearhead the rescue attempt and to deny the oppositions demand for safe passage.Sovereignty Matters after all.
    I will say this though and it is playing out elsewhere anyways. Petroleum and other resource sites all around the globe will evolve into semi autonomous entities. They will gather strong security forces and will enjoy the freedom to exist secondary to the revenues they will lavish as well as the potential semblances of stability they will pursue.

  • 131. Alfie  |  January 17, 2013 at 10:42 pm

    Just cuz it was mentioned earlier…I just got the Federalist Papers free for my iPad. Neat

  • 132. dead rabbit  |  January 17, 2013 at 10:58 pm

    Interesting take on the Petro sites, A.

    I don’t see every ebb and flow of Al Queda in places like West Africa the fault of Obama. I do see it as proof that he was a pathetic liar for the sake of loosing a few poll points back in September. He doesn’t get off the hook for blaming an American movie for Benghazi, completly fibbing over the nature of the attack and sending a loyal dim wit on TV telling us Al Queda is all but extinct.

  • 133. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:31 am

    I agree its kind of weak in that Obama doesn’t choose said perks.

    Good to hear that.

    Oooh. Thanks for bestowing the get out of jail free card.

    You’re welcome. I’d knew you’d understand. ;-)

  • 134. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:35 am

    Petroleum and other resource sites all around the globe will evolve into semi autonomous entities.

    Petroleum plants as city-states? Sounds scary as hell to me. Takes old Mitt’s “Corporations are people my friend” and turns it into “Corporations are countries, my friend.”

    Sounds like some futuristic nightmare.

  • 135. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:37 am

    I just got the Federalist Papers free for my iPad.

    One more person with an iPad. Grrrrrrr. I told my wife that I’m spending the first two paychecks of my new job (more on that later) on an iPad. She almost punched me in the face. :neutral:

  • 136. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:42 am

    Correction to 120 and I’ll ask the question again. Am I the only one here who up until today never heard of Manti Te’o? (I’ll be surprised if Rabbit doesn’t bite on this one.)

  • 137. Huck  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:48 am

    “Am I the only one here who up until today never heard of Manti Te’o?”

    No. And I am saddened that, with all of our problems, this idiocy is making the splash page of news sites.

  • 138. poolman  |  January 18, 2013 at 2:31 am

    I’m not familiar with Manti Te’o. Where would it rank on a priority list?

  • 139. Huck  |  January 18, 2013 at 2:44 am

    “I’m not familiar with Manti Te’o. Where would it rank on a priority list?”

    Somewhere between Kim Kardashian’s pregnancy and Lindsay Lohan’s re-arrest.

  • 140. poolman  |  January 18, 2013 at 2:55 am

    Sounds like some futuristic nightmare.

    But wait, there’s more. Integration with machines. Resistance is futile.

    “Human Augmentation” is indeed considered a key issue in the next 15 years as new technologies will allow all kinds of modifications “ranging from implants and prosthetics to powered exoskeletons, human augmentation enhancing innate human abilities”. These augmentations would be used on soldiers, workers and anyone that can afford them, giving them “super-human” powers and capabilities, whether it be on a physical or a mental level.

    http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/the-national-intelligence-council-predicts-a-very-transhuman-future-by-2030/

  • 142. poolman  |  January 18, 2013 at 3:13 am

    Somewhere between Kim Kardashian’s pregnancy and Lindsay Lohan’s re-arrest.

    lol. It is a sad day when this is where we find our intercourse. But hey, we got our sports. We got our teams, right? Getting geared up for that major marketing success, aka the Super Bowl? There’s some real spend.

  • 143. Noah  |  January 18, 2013 at 5:08 am

    Logic is fun
    http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/83028786/

  • 144. Alfie  |  January 18, 2013 at 7:30 am

    @135 wait a little longer. in classic Apple form they are probably going to release two newbies in 2013. Congrats on pending paychecks though!
    One thing about globalization it has surely reinforced the nature of corporations especially in the multi-national realm.

  • 145. James  |  January 18, 2013 at 9:37 am

    Jim Lehre’s show had a discussion of Mali and the Algerian terrorist attack. The panelists agreed that though the situation might have deteriorated later, the initial spark for the current problem was the Arab Spring and our reaction to it. The chaos which followed energized the jihadists and let them appropriate what became unclaimed weapons.

    Several people here predicted trouble when the press was still praising the Arab Spring and equating OWS and the movement with a new wavet of freedom.Now, the region is becoming increasingly unstable, and it is potentially more dangerous than Afghanistan at its worst.

    Algeria produces about an eighth of Europe’s oil purchases, and the terrorist attacks showed its oil fields are vulnerable to a shutdown. Part of the region supplies a large percentage of the world’s uranium. Nigeria next door to the trouble is another major oil producer.

    The potentiental exists for a large part of northern Africa to devolve into a jihadist state. According to another article, France waited for help from the United States but recieved little. They finally decided they had no choice but to invade.

    The panelists agreed the United States and other countries must interviene, to avoid potential calamity. Important risks offer danger that unless we plan our objectives carefuly and understand how to implement them we will be trapped in that part of Africa for a long time.

    Its too late to dwell on what we did wrong unless we learn from our mistakes. We should have bribbed and threatened the less dangerous dictators to offer a few concessions while crushing the movement as the Soviets, Romans and other tyranical countries have done through history.

    Or, we should have invaded the region as we did Iraq, removed the dictators and kept our troops in place until order was restored. Our leading from behind policy was akin to a customer’s buying a cheap used car to save money.Like the auto customer, we are now learning the real cost. You get what you pay for.

    Fracking and private development are turning the United States and Canada into oil powers which might rival Opec. If jihadists were able to disrupt the supply of oil from Africa or the Middle East our oil would suddenly be very important. High energy prices would help dig us from our deficite.

    Much is speculation so far, but the certainity is that events in northern Africa should be our most important news story. Once again, our press is failing us. Most people still don’t even know what happened at Bengazi. Malis could sing Kerli’s song “I come from a mystery land called Estonia (Mali) but nobody knows where its at.”

  • 147. Just a Lurker  |  January 18, 2013 at 12:06 pm

    “The real reason the Second Amendment was ratified, and why it says “State” instead of “Country” (the Framers knew the difference – see the 10th Amendment), was to preserve the slave patrol militias in the southern states, which was necessary to get Virginia’s vote. Founders Patrick Henry, George Mason, and James Madison were totally clear on that . . . and we all should be too.”
    http://truth-out.org/news/item/13890-the-second-amendment-was-ratified-to-preserve-slavery

  • 148. Newt or no newt  |  January 18, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    Calling bs on James’ comments on Algeria, guess what James, France continues to have problems with their former colonies, has nothing to do with the United States. We are not the center of the world. When I was in Paris two years ago, armed guards were posted at all of the national monuments, because of threats from terrorists from their former colonies. No one knows where Mali is? Very few people in this country can point to Iraq or Afghanistan on a map.
    Latest news on hostages in Algeria http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2013/01/201311814937524583.html

  • 149. James  |  January 18, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    Not absurb, poolman.If you are going to change the status quo you had better make sure unintended consequences don’t become worse than what you tried to change.

    Encouraging the Arab Spring as we did is why “the area is less stable and order has not been restored.” I don’t think we should have invaded the region, but if we were to change the political culture in an orderly fashion, its what we would have had to do. Disorder is our enemy, and our half-way measures create disorder. We should have left well-enough alone, but we didn’t.

    I also dispute your “its crazy talk to say what we did as good.” Google David Ignatus “Change in Afghananistan brings hope.” He writes that Afghananistan has changed significantly during the past decade. Thanks to us and our allies, it is no longer “mired in perpetual feudal twilight, it’s actually becoming a modern country.” Urbanization and ecomomic development are reshaping Afghanastan because of us. Women also have more rights and many girls are in school thanks to us.

    An Indian diplomat said if the Taliban takes over after we leave it will not have such an easy course. “This not 1990 again. Afghanasitan is a changed place.”

    Ignatius also wrote that our fighting the Vietnam War contributed to the economic boom there now. “Who can say what the future holds for Afghanastan? Surely the country’s turmoil and suffering won’t end when US troops depart…But its a mistake to assume that nothing changed during America’s years of struggle there or that many of those changes weren’t for the better.”

  • 150. poolman  |  January 18, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    James, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I don’t see where our meddling has made us safer or left us or them in any way better off. I see our actions having achieved just the opposite.

  • 151. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    Some tortures are physical / And some are mental, / But the one that is both / Is dental. -Ogden Nash, poet (1902-1971)

  • 152. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    The dude in Noah’s video makes a very good point. We “celebrate” the mass murderers and ignore the folks who, every now and then, stop them. The focus is definitely in the wrong place.

  • 153. Huck  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    ““The real reason the Second Amendment was ratified, and why it says “State” instead of “Country” (the Framers knew the difference – see the 10th Amendment), was to preserve the slave patrol militias in the southern states…”

    This is utter nonsense. They did not mean “state” as in “Georgia” or “Virginia.” They meant “state” as in the administrative body of the country. To suggest they said “state” to mean “southern states” is to suggest they didn’t know how to pluralize.

  • 154. James  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    I have been in France too, Newt I lived across the channel in the UK and heard French news. Yes, they have problems with former colonies, and some domestic trouble is self-imposed. Like many Europeans, the French marginalized their new immigrants and many still don’t really feel as if they are part of French society.

    This is a little different. As a guest on the Lehere show said, we through the Arab Spring cast a spark which set off a new revolution.

    National Journal “what You need to know about Mali” After the fall of Maummar Qaddafi, the Tuareg who fought for him went south to Niger and Mali. When they arrived in Mali with Libian weapons they reinvigurated the local Tuareg rebellion against the government.

    The northern Tuareg people have wanted to be independent from the South for years because their cultures and climates are different. They are primarilly nomadic and some have smuggled narcotics from South America and cigarettes to Europe. The South is more agricultural.

    The new allies from chaotic Libya reinvigorated the rebellion and with aid from Malian junior officers, they overthrew the government in the capital of Bamako last March. Many western nations still regard the government as illegitimate.Remaining Malian soldiers in the North fled.

    With the government gone, drug traffickers and Islamic estremists with links to al-Qujiada moved in and took over the Tuareg sepatist movement. This let other extremist groups take over cities like “Timbuktu. They have imposed Sharia law and set up rebel training camps.Some experts believe the militants have surface to air missiles stolen from Libya and the Malian army bases.

    Other jihadi groups are flowing into the north “partly because it is a safe haven and partly because it is now quickly turning into the hottest global flashpoint with infidel crusaders.”

    Recently, Islamic militants went on the offensive and took over towns as they moved south.The Malian government made a direct appeal to France while the African Union prepared a force to eventually attack the Islamic groups in northern Mali. Holland announced that it is unclear how long the French will be involved. It is also unclear why the rebels decided to invade the South.

    The United States is now supporting the French with logistical and communications aid and will probably be sending drones.The United States doesn’t want to appear to support the new government which took over after the March coup, and our strategists are hoping to keep a low profile until after the African Union is able to mobilize enough troops to take over the operation.

    The United States is embarrassed because the troops who started the coup were trained by our government.

    This is important because the militants in northern Mali could destabilize the region and harm neighboring countries which as I noted are resource rich. They could also use the region to launch attacks on the West al Qaida used Afghanastan for attacks against the United States and other countries.

    “The area under the rule of the Islamic fighters is mostly desert and sparcely populated, but analysts say that due to its size and the hostil nature of the terrlain, rooting out the extremists here could prove even more difficult than it did in Afghanistan. Mali’s former president has acknowledged that… the country cannot patrol a frontier twice the length of the border between the United States and Mexico.

    AUIM operates not just in Mali, but in a corridor 4.300 miles long across the widest part of Africa. Africa expert Peter Pham said we wewere able to contain the Taliban in Afghanistan, but “There is no containment strategy for the Sahel which runs from the Atlantic Ocean to the Red Sea.”

    As Hot Air noted, ” how one intervention can beget another.”

    Like it or not, we are one of the centers of the universe. i remember a time when practically no one could find Laos or Vietnam on a map. Iraq and Aghanastan were also practically unknown. If we don’t nip this in the bud, Mali and some other countries will be known to us all.

  • 155. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:20 pm

    Wow Lurker, 2nd amendment ratified to preserve slavery. Never heard that twist before.

  • 156. Newt or no newt  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    James, you need to go back to the UK and Europe, things and opinions change. I have an in-law, who was stationed in the Uk in the fifties, he thinks they are still rationing.

  • 157. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    Poolman is the long quote in 146 supposed to link to a source? I’d be interested to know who said it.

  • 158. James  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    Ruthrford, I once suggested that if we really wanted to torture our enemy prisoners, we could do some dental work. I know from experience.

    A young Air Force dentist had a plan to remove my four impacted wisdom teeth in one fell swoop. One was infected and another had strong roots. He planned to extract it in three pieces. So far so good.

    Then, he lost a half inch root tip in my lingual space and went crazy, because it is a dangourous place. That dentist was a man possessed as he poked, cut and searched for the root tip. I thought the crowd which gathered around my chair was a bad sign.

    Then, the anesthetic wore off, but in spite of my saying it hurt the dentist pusheed on. He had time to take full skull x rays, but not to make me numb. It was awful. Finally after over an hour someone told the commander that I needed a shot. He came in and gave the dentist a direct order. I got the shot, but he kept poking.

    Nearly five hours later, I went to the hospital for two days.

    Two years later, a dental commander said an x – ray showed luninosity around the root tip, and he said he had to remove it.
    As I left that night, he was reading the equivalent of an instruction book since this was serious surgery which could kill me if an artery was severed.

    A small crowd gathered again. A dental tech who assissted told me later than he nad never seen a patient tolerate a needle so far down his throat without gagging.

    Ansethetic leaked from the needle hole and dribbled down my throat. I was partly paralysed and could barely swallow. It felt like I was going to drown.I tried to relax and not panic, because I didn’t want to interfere with the dentist. He almost got the root tip, but I gagged and he lost it. They sewed me up nearly three hours later,and the root tip was still in me.

    Feeling should have returned, but the dentist had bruised a nerve, and the side and interior of my mouth stayed numb.
    The dentist didn’t know if it was permanent. We would have to wait and see. Eating was a choir because I only had partial control of my toungue. The taste of blood mde me realize when I was chewing the side of my mouth or my toungue.Speaking was also a chore I sounded like the man with a pierced tongue in the remake of Mad World.

    Four months later, I began to feel sharp pains as I chewed. Sensation was beginning to return.

    When I was in grad school, I had an exam at the dental college. The dentist in training assured me that the root tip would kill me within ten years.

    It is still with me. I have it x rayed each year, and since it is so deep down in my throat, I often have to position the film. Sometimes, it aches and throbs, and I can feel a lump; if I stick my finger far enough down my throat.

    I’ll bet you regret that dental quote Rutherford. Dentistry is just one flashpoint for flashbacks. I could tell you much more.

    .

  • 159. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    On the topic of body augmentation, an interesting idea popped up on Morning Joe this morning. They were discussing Lance Armstrong and the prevalence of doping in the cycling sport. Then John Heilemann brought up the notion that as technology gets more and more advanced, what restrictions will be placed upon athletes to take advantage of these advancements or not. Someone brought up the example of a major league pitcher who got a surgery that actually made his throwing arm stronger. Does that ipso facto make him a cheat?

    Bioethics and sports. Maybe a new college major of the future?

  • 160. James  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    I keep in touch with the UK, newt.I read and watch their news, weather, and comedies. I also have e pals over there, and I have visited with British farmers.I know what has changed and what remains the same.

    I know Britian also has its problems with new immigrants, and they can be as racist as we are. One woman said she can tolelrate the Poles and Ukrainians but the Lithuanians are worse than dirt. A man called Ukrainians blond Mexicans.

    Simon Cowl on the British X Factor told a young Lithuanian singer that she was so awful even in Lithuania.I watched the poor girl and felt sorry for her, though she was bad.

    Simon pursuaded the four lads auditioning for X Factor to become a group, and as we know, they did.

    A snow storm is forcast to envolope the UK today. Some places could have blizzard conditions. Northern Scotland had a pretty good ski season until a long warm spell melted much of their snow. Skiers should be happy about the snow.

  • 161. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:53 pm

    James, what do you mean when you say “root tip”? Part of the root of the tooth or part of a dental instrument?

  • 162. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    I assume the pro-life crowd here will enjoy Rush Limbaugh’s latest bon mot.

    You know how to stop abortion? Require that each one occur with a gun.

  • 163. Just a Lurker  |  January 18, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Huck did you read the article – not trying to be smart. Thom Hartmann maybe a liberal but I don’t think he is a liar or trying to rewrite history. Why do you think he came to the wrong conclusion? Did Henry, Mason and Madison not voice these concerns that caused the change?

  • 164. Newt or no newt  |  January 18, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    James, my opinion hasn’t changed, I watch Downton Abbey, but I am scarcely an expert on running a manor house. I think you would benefit greatly by getting fifty miles or more away from the farm once in awhile. Maybe before you have to start raising that grandchild would be a good time.

  • 165. James  |  January 18, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    Rutherford, it was about a half inch of the root from the tip on up the tooth.

    I don’t know about the pro lifers, since I am pro choice, but that abortion comment was hilarious to me.

  • 166. Alfie  |  January 18, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    @ # 163 this is a great example of the bastardization of history.
    The well documented and fullness of the Federalists and Anti-Federalists views attached to the drafting,ratifying and amending of the Constitution makes it pretty clear that the primary concern of the Founders was always about the rights of the People. There is a sticking point here that the slaves were not readily viewed as part of the People equation.
    For example MA and NH were very vocal that guns COULD NEVER be taken from citizens. Am I to go to Beacon Hill today and inform the fucks up there that they have strayed?

  • 167. Alfie  |  January 18, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    newt….still vile.

  • 168. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    Huck I agree with Lurker. I think you do her a disservice to dismiss it out of hand. I read the article and the concerns of the Founders seem well documented. Hartmann may be tying his evidence to the wrong conclusion but that cannot be determined without at least considering his argument.

    FWIW when I read “state” in the 2nd amendment I do read “state” vs “Federal government”. The amendment is designed to distinguish state militias from a central government army.

  • 169. Rutherford  |  January 18, 2013 at 2:44 pm

    Alfie, could it be that concern for appeasing the police state of the South contributed to the 2nd Amendment without being the driving force behind it?

    On a similar note, some Yahoo said a few days ago that if only the slaves had guns there might not have been slavery. He was rebuked by many for making a stupid comment — basically, yeah they came in chains in the bottom of a boat and then had their guns taken away.

    BUT Thom Hartmann’s article points out that the South went to great trouble to prevent armed slave rebellion by making sure slaves did not get guns. So maybe the Yahoo wasn’t such a Yahoo after all?

  • 170. James  |  January 18, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    Downton Abbey is nice, but they take themselves a little too seriously.

    My wife and I have lived in a number of places, and they give me a frame of reference when I speak to someone who lives where we once did.

    Thanks to YouTube, I have “driven’ on roads in Finland, iceland and Alaska. I have “toured” a Brazilan school and watched it snow in Chile. Today, one can see and learn almost as much as actually visiting a country.

    I chair three mostly historic- oriented organizations and serve on the boards of two others. i am involved with a local newspaper and a quarterly historic and economic development news letter. My wife writes grant applications and works many hours at our food pantry She writes organizational reports, and sometimes tutors. She also helps at a weekly bingo event in a neighboring town.

    If you Google Jan 6, 2013 Council Bluffs Nonpareilonline, Murray Hall, you will see one of our projects.

    Our daughter is a therapist and she wants to keep her job. Her and our son-in law have scheduals which make day care hard, and it is expensive. Our son in law has a medical problem too. For our daughter to keep her job, my wife and I plan to care for the kid up to four days a week. That means a lot of time in Omaha. We also plan to visit our son and daughter in law in California. We usually take our own road trips when we visit there every other year.

    We plan to visit Alaska and Iceland as soon as we can. We can’t right now until we know better how we will be managing the arrival of our grand child and our son-in law’s health.We are looking forward seeing the little kid.

  • 171. Newt or no newt  |  January 18, 2013 at 3:43 pm

    Naturally Downton Abbey takes itself seriously, it is a soap opera. :-) My daughter and I are going to Cambodia and Vietnam this summer, I am a bit concerned about the weather at that time, but she is tired of Europe and I have never been to Asia.

  • 172. James  |  January 18, 2013 at 4:18 pm

    Yes, slave holders were afraid of slave rebellions, and with good reason.Small uprisings occured. The slave uprising in Haiti surely gained attention.

    168 ” I think you do her a disservice” Is Lurker a woman? I have been thinking of her as a man all of this time.

    I agree with Alfie in 166. The colonists had just won a revolution which was caused in part by what the Americans regarded as a distant government’s incessant interference with their personal and economic lives .As good Englishmen, they would not be dictated to. The Rights of the People would be preserved. As Alfie noted, the definitiion of people has changed.

    Newt and poolman have not yet addressed my long comments about Mali .Newt’s main rejoinder is that I need to get out more. Betsy’s Page reached the same conclusion I did about fracking. With Mali taking an unknown track, we need to keep; fracking.

    I do wish I was in Essex right now. Heavy snow is creating many problems.

  • 173. dead rabbit  |  January 18, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    ” So maybe the Yahoo wasn’t such a Yahoo after all?”

    Of course they kept the slaves unarmed. Not a yahoo thing to say at all.

  • 174. James  |  January 18, 2013 at 4:35 pm

    You should enjoy Vietnam newt. Probably Cambodia too, but I know less about that country.Expect hot, humid rainy weather, because it will be monsoon season.

    In some places you could almost set your watch with the timing of afternoon showers. The North is more variable. The highlands are also cooler.The main weather danger is typhoons .

    The people are nice.

    Will you be traveling in the entire country?

    I hope you enjoy your trip.

    I’d like to visit the Philipines sometime. A nephew was born there, and I have an e pal who calls my wife and me Uncle and Aunt.

  • 175. Noah  |  January 18, 2013 at 5:00 pm

    Larry on Piers Morgan last night:

    Piers Morgan did not want to hear it, did not listen. But I am right.

    The real face of gun violence in America is not Sandy Hook– it is Chicago. It is not a suburban little girl living in bucolic Newtown. It is a 6 year-old little Chicago girl shot and killed on her front porch, one of five people shot and killed across Chicago in an hour one day in May last year.

    Although Chicago is one-third black, one-third Hispanic and one-third white, 70% of last year’s 500 Chicago murders were committed by blacks, almost always against other blacks. Most of the killings were gang-related.

    Why do kids join gangs? Absentee, non-involved fathers.

    It is not the presence of the gun, but the absence of fathers that is the central social problem in America.

    Feeling abandoned or unloved by their fathers, children, especially boys, become angry at life. They don’t get to watch two adult parents in-home, near-by, up close and personal– show them, by word and deed, how to resolve disputes without violence.

    In “Resurrection”, the fatherless rapper, Tupoc Shakur, explained that he started handing with gang bangers because he sought structure and protection.

    Tupoc said: “I hate saying this ’cause white people love hearing black people talk about this. I know for a fact that had I had a father, I’d have had some discipline, I’d have had more confidence. … You need a man to teach you how to be a man.”

  • 176. Noah  |  January 18, 2013 at 5:02 pm

    Petition on the budget, or lack thereof.

    http://www.nrsc.org/campaigns/no-budget/

  • 177. Noah  |  January 18, 2013 at 5:17 pm

    Democrat Senator Charles Schumer said retailers that sell assault weapons should stop offering them for purchase while Congress discusses gun regulation legislation.

    How about Congress stops spending while we discuss government budget cuts?

    On the media’s role of manipulating us…

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=322895967817193&set=a.198312883608836.34844.198021666971291&type=1&theater

  • 178. poolman  |  January 18, 2013 at 7:14 pm

    re 157, sorry, I usually check those to make sure they work. The source: http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/why

  • 179. poolman  |  January 18, 2013 at 7:28 pm

    James, I don’t know enough about Mali to have an opinion. It is BP’s assets we are protecting in Algeria, right? All these always have a corporate angle. Some good links to background info here:

    http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-cias-belmokhtar-in-algeria.html

  • 180. Alfie  |  January 18, 2013 at 8:53 pm

    by making sure slaves did not get guns
    the truth of the times shows this comment to be stupid. The slave didn’t get flex campus privileges at the plantation folks

  • 181. Newt or no newt  |  January 18, 2013 at 8:59 pm

    James, while we are in Vietnam, we will divide our time between Hanoi and Saigon. We can do day trips from those locations, while still assuring ourselves of modern hotels.

  • 182. Just a Lurker  |  January 18, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    Alfie – I have been on a refresher course of the Civil War etc. Slaves were known to slip off at night to fish or hunt or gather extra food. Not all slaves were on plantations. Not all slave owners kept a tight rein on their slaves. While they may not have been educated they were not a stupid people. There were abolitionists who would have been willing to supply guns. Where there is a will there is away.

  • 183. James  |  January 18, 2013 at 10:46 pm

    Newt, that sounds like a good trip. How long do you plan to be in Vietnam?

    Siagon has a temple representing the fusion of Bhudism, Catholicism, and Taoism. Companies also offer excursion boat rides.

    Poolman, I don’t know a lot about Mali either. Algeria provides Europe with a major source of oil. The terrorists promise to do another operation. They have proven what they can do, and should they disrupt the supply of oil for even a week or so energy prices will soar and damage many economies.

    Our newly abundant oil will be a godsend.

    I believe the attacked oil site belongs to BP.

    My wife is using the new computer, and i have the slow laptop. I will open the link later.

  • 184. James  |  January 18, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    My aunt knew some former slaves when she was a girl in North Carolina. As Lurker noted, some slaves had responsible jobs and were virtually free. Others bought their freedom. Blacks also owned slaves.

    My aunt’s friend told her the whipping man visited once a month. The miscreants were usually teenaged boys being teenaged boys. They were tied to a post and whipped the number of times prescribed for their offenses.

    Some owners taught their slaves to read and write, even when it was illegal.

    Other slaves slipped away at night and followed the Underground Railroad north to Canada.

    Families were broken apart because they were chattel to be bought and sold at auctions like cattle.

    Not all slaves were black Early on,Sweden sold Sami (Laplanders) into slavery in New Sweden and later the British colonies.

  • 185. Rutherford  |  January 19, 2013 at 1:57 am

    So do I understand Alfie to be saying the guy was a Yahoo after all?

    All I ever heard growing up was bad evening news about Vietnam so I can’t imagine going there for fun even though the war ended 40 years ago. With that said, Newt I hope you have a good time.

    James … NEW COMPUTER???? Do tell! I didn’t know there was a new member of your tech family.

    I’ll be on and off sporadically tomorrow (Saturday) as we have another gymnastics meet to attend.

  • 186. Noah  |  January 19, 2013 at 3:18 am

    Pete Williams, who is NBC’s chief Justice correspondent, reported the following in the video posted above:

    “This continues to be a very complex investigation and there is a lot of contradictory information out there, but we have some new information this morning (one month ago) from a couple of federal officials and state officials.

    They say now that there were actually four handguns inside the school, not just two as we were initially told. Four handguns and apparently only handguns that were taken into the school.

    We knew that Adam Lanza, the man said to be the gunman here, also had an ‘assault-style’ AR-15 -style rifle that he had had taken to the school, it was in the car he drove there, his mother’s car, but we have been told by several officials that he had left that in the car.”

    http://www.ijreview.com/2013/01/30208-nbc-admits-no-assault-rifle-used-in-newtown-shooting/

    So based on this report, I suppose you all will want to ban all handguns?

  • 187. Huck  |  January 19, 2013 at 4:18 am

    Yes I read the article and it ignores every point I already made regarding what Hamilton and Madison wrote in the Federalist Papers on the subjects of “well regulated militia” and an armed populous.

    It also makes a lot of assumptions of what persons B and C thought based on quotes from person A. And I didn’t care for the fact that none of the quotes had citations. How do I know so-and-so really said such-and-such? And what was the greater context of what they were discussing at the time? All of that matters. Plus, as we all know, the Internet is full of BS quotes attributed to historic people. I am not claiming the author is lying, but maybe his sources were. How do I know when he doesn’t source his work?

    It is not a scholarly article. If I am to buy revisionist history of this magnitude, I need more.

  • 188. Huck  |  January 19, 2013 at 4:31 am

    “Did Henry, Mason and Madison not voice these concerns that caused the change?”

    I don’t know. If we knew what documents these quotes were taken from we could analyze them and begin to flesh it out. But the author did not provide us with that information. Not to be overly critical, but stating fact….I am not surprised, because he isn’t an historian.

    My undergrad degree is in history and my graduate research involves document analysis. I am not appealing to my own authority, but I am all about documents when it comes to something like this. And what (admittedly little) document analysis I have done on this subject doesn’t reflect the claims of the author.

  • 189. Alfie  |  January 19, 2013 at 9:45 am

    @182 you are moving the goal posts now. We were speaking about the writing and amending of the Constitution (1791),we were not talking about the 1830-1865 era per se.
    I will also interject into this whole discussion that there were slave rebellions in the USA and that a number of folks including John Brown embraced their second amendment freedoms and conducted themselves in shall we say questionable ways,others can judge.
    No…I find Hartmanns piece to be a shame and I find the internet paced alliances created via it are disgraceful. For crying out loud there are folks bringing Django into the current political discussion as if it was perfected history as opposed to a movie.
    There is a plethora of well sourced and cited material that clearly points to the base feeling of Henry,Madison,Mason and Hamilton and how the states engaged in the adoption of the Constitution.

  • 190. Alfie  |  January 19, 2013 at 9:53 am

    Just a tiny example of how the Founders felt about an armed citizenry and why’s

    Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate [state] governments … forms a
    barrier against the enterprises of ambition …. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear,the governments are afraid to trust their people with arms.

    The Founders really cared about the individual freedoms. It has been said by others that especially when it comes to the 2nd the word State has a lot of potential meanings.
    One twist is that the word really means that the People are have a right to a free state and that having an armed citizenry (and frowning upon standing armies) kept tyranny from within as well as abroad at bay.
    This really comes home when you look at the writings of the time and the Federalist Papers,these people really didn’t trust government.

  • 191. PFesser  |  January 19, 2013 at 10:19 am

    James – re: Tupac Cochise, or whatever his name was. Very, very insightful on his part.

    A study about twenty years ago involved measuring testosterone levels in young male children in households without fathers, and with.

    The presence of an adult male in the household suppressed all male children’s testosterone levels until they were in their late ‘teens. If an adult male was not in the home, the levels of all the boy children rose, and one of them would be the alpha male, suppressing somewhat the testosterone of the others.

    The researchers opined that it was a formula for conflagration: a young male whose biology told him to be Head of Household, but couldn’t; his income depended entirely on his mother; his comings and goings the same, he was taking orders from an adult female HOH, not learning how to be a man FROM a man. Hence he becomes “somebody” in a gang.

    Interesting theory. The upshot was that urban black violence had less to do with blackness than it did a “father” who couldn’t keep it in his pants.

    re: Tupac again. I still remember when he was shot, Jay Leno remarked that it was heartwarming to see a celebrity who actually used the product he endorsed. LOL.

  • 192. Newt or no newt  |  January 19, 2013 at 10:20 am

    James, I should be there a week to ten days, in total we plan to be gone 2 weeks. That is a long way to travel to stay any less. I’ve heard Vietnam is actually beautiful. Hanoi, so I’ve read, still has some French elements, such as architecture and cuisine. If you can get a good baguette and some cheese, you won’t starve.

  • 193. Raji  |  January 19, 2013 at 10:22 am

    Did you know?

    “The White House declared that a 1996 law banning use of money to “advocate or promote gun control” should not keep the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other federal agencies from doing any work on the topic.”

    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130117/DA3S7FJG1.html

  • 194. James  |  January 19, 2013 at 10:22 am

    Yes, Rutherford, we have a new computer. As you know, our 2005 model was not working at times. A local computer talk show host recommended that people wait for Windows 8, so we did. Then, he abruptly changed, saying Windows 8 required a leap many customers weren’t willing to make.

    So, we bought an HP computer without the tower and paid an extra $50 for a Windows 8 upgrade later. The model was discontinued, so we bought the floor model at a discount. Afterword, the salesman said he has the same computer and likes it. It already has a touch screen.

    We waited from October until December for the computer to be ready for us. Meanwhile, the old computer began working again. As I wrote, an e friend gave us her old XP laptop, and though it is slow, it works fine. Someone else gave us a XP tower, but we didn’t need to use it.

    Now, the old computer is back on life support..

    I agree with Alfie, individual freedoms were almost as important as food to our founders. They remembered a past they didn’t want to repeat. In similar fashion, Ukranians, Russians, and others who migrated here to escape Soviet communism are often dismayed to find us lapsing into the socialism they knew at home.

    Latvia and Estonia are two other examples to support the assumption that founding fathers’ great concern for individual freedom was a product of their past. The two countries so opposed the deficit spending they knew under communism, that they sacrificed with several years of negative growth and poverty during the worst of the recession to escape the trap we have fallen into.

  • 195. James  |  January 19, 2013 at 10:38 am

    That’s the man in the link, Poolman. He has also been called the Marlburo Man because he was active in smuggling and selling cigarettes.

    We probably did arm and train him during our war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. At that time, defeating the Soviet Union was more important than jihadists who might hypothetically turn against us at a later time.

    Unfortunately for us, we armed and trained some of the soldiers who joined the rebels in Mali. They may be fighting the French and later us with our own weapons. Ambassador Stevens may have been arming other jihadists, and it is possible someone set him up for murder., We can only speculate about that, because the administration isn’t talking.

  • 196. James  |  January 19, 2013 at 10:47 am

    Very interesting Pfessor. If you think about it, the same process may work with male competition in wolf packs, herds of wild horses, or lion prides. Nature provided a way to let the most fit send their genes to the next generation and created safety measures to minimize the killing.

    Do you know of any studies of hormone levels in women? I’ll bet the same process works with alpha females.

    We may very well be working against our true natures with gangs and other violence as the result.

    I read a study years ago that found young men in basic training to have lower testosterone levels than the average middle aged woman. It would be a biological reaction to an alpha male, the drill sargeant.

    “Don’t mess with mother nature.”

  • 197. Ken  |  January 19, 2013 at 10:51 am

    The hypocrisy of Dems. We need to save the environment by reducing our use of fossil fuels. Oh crap! We have less of your money now. Let’s find a totally invasive, big brother, remove your right to privacy way of taxing you more for having the gall to listen to us and use less fuel.

    http://news.yahoo.com/gas-tax-revenue-down-officials-201237896.html

    Should five per cent appear too small
    Be thankful I don’t take it all
    ‘Cause I’m the taxman, yeah I’m the taxman

    If you drive a car, I’ll tax the street,
    If you try to sit, I’ll tax your seat.
    If you get too cold I’ll tax the heat,
    If you take a walk, I’ll tax your feet.

    Don’t ask me what I want it for
    If you don’t want to pay some more
    ‘Cause I’m the taxman, yeah, I’m the taxman

    -THE BEATLES – TAXMAN

  • 198. dead rabbit  |  January 19, 2013 at 10:52 am

    “Yes, Rutherford, we have a new computer.”

    Dead Rabbit has a new rig too. 8 core processer. Fast.

  • 199. Alfie  |  January 19, 2013 at 11:03 am

    I’ve been looking into the public health angle of guns in America and quite frankly find it to be little more than a ruse. The logical conclusion of the body of work,exemplified by Hemenway,is to get rid of guns PERIOD! There is no credible way to think studies will be unbiased as they have been in the past,that manufacturers have any real avenues as cars had Nader bolts and airbags,and as far as public education is there any doubt that the topic du jour would be that you shouldn’t want a gun?
    On another related note I have to say I find some of the mission creep of physicians in general to be kind of disconcerting. Mission creep being the unsolicited social engineering stuff. PF any thoughts on this?

  • 200. James  |  January 19, 2013 at 11:24 am

    Yes, Newt, Vietnam still has some elements of French culture. I think you will notice the predominant color is green in many places. The country also has some nice beaches. It is a beautiful and variable place. You may like most of the food.

    You probably already know this. You might want to bring travelers checks with your US dollars. If you are away from the cities, spending dong, the national currency may be all you can do unless you exchange money on the black market. People bargain for goods too.

    You might like Vietnam so well that two weeks isn’t enough time.

    I wish you could post some pictures or at least share an account of your adventures.

    I agree about the connotations, Rutherford. They hint the same as a visit to Berlin or Japan for an older generation. I don’t know about old Vietnamese animosities. If any exist, they might be against the Chinese rather than westerners. They are different from Europeans who are naturally fractious.

  • 201. PFesser  |  January 19, 2013 at 11:36 am

    “On another related note I have to say I find some of the mission creep of physicians in general to be kind of disconcerting. Mission creep being the unsolicited social engineering stuff. PF any thoughts on this?”

    The worst thing you can do is to start dabbling outside your charter. When you do that, you contaminate your work-product. Doctors should treat sick people.

    I subscribed to Scientific American for thirty years, until they started doing opinion pieces about the public policy implications of some of their scientific articles. I wrote a letter of complaint and got a smart-assed reply from some Ivy-league mid-level guy. I returned my letter – and his – to his boss, with instructions to cancel the subscription. Haven’t bought one since. If I am not mistaken, SciAm dates to before the Civil War. The modern boys are going to run it into the ground. I now read “Science” and “Nature.”

  • 202. James  |  January 19, 2013 at 11:39 am

    Ragi, I didn’t know that.

    Rabbit, that music takes me to dark places with warm summer breezes rustling through the trees.

    My wife was listing medical conditions for long term care insurance. Her doctor told her not to list anything for which she had not actually been treated. A view of the future?

    A psychologist on Coast to Coast said the new rules will discourage people who need it from seeing mental health providers. People who take mood altering medication may lose the right to own guns.

    He thinks more people will lie to their doctors.

    Ken, the Beatles wrote a song for almost anything didn’t they?

  • 203. dead rabbit  |  January 19, 2013 at 11:56 am

    Damn…I didnt realize the Algerian hostage slaughter were terrorists from Libya.

  • 204. Newt or no newt  |  January 19, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    Thanks James, I will definitely do my research ahead of time. We are really looking forward to Cambodia too. My daughter spent a week in Thailand a few years ago, she loved it so much she didn’t want to leave, I hope we have a similar feeling in Cambodia and Vietnam when our trip draws to an end.

  • 205. Newt or no newt  |  January 19, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    Can’t miss Angkor Wat. Have you heard of that temple, James?

  • 206. Just a Lurker  |  January 19, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    Huck I appreciate and agree with your concerns regarding citing source or documentation. I do know the article is an excerpt from a book he researched and wrote but can not recall the title. I guess we have to buy the book to find an answer!

  • 207. poolman  |  January 19, 2013 at 1:06 pm

  • 208. Huck  |  January 19, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    I really hope the House GOP stands by its proposal to extend the debt ceiling to cover 3 months and then tell Senate Democrats to piss off until they pass a budget.

    Both sides have used the argument that budget time is the time to address spending…most recently the Democrats. So they opened the door to this. Let’s get it done.

  • 209. Noah  |  January 19, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    Hey DR, you hear about the new bill our failure of a Governor has put forth to be voted on? He is proposing that we add a $120 tax across the board tax to renewing license plates. I cannot imagine how the poor will be able to deal with this. The plate on my car alone will be almost $300.

    To add insult to injury, we had to bring a vehicle out of storage while one was down for repair. I had not plated it in two years and when I went to get a plate and registration for it, I was told we now have to pay for all the years I did not have it licensed. I went home, got the wife and the title to the car, sold it to her for $1, paid the fee for a new title and avoided the charges for the previous years.

    This is what broke governments are doing to pay the bills and its landing squarely on the people who can afford it the least.

  • 210. Noah  |  January 19, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    Its way way past time we clean house.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=400729720009712&set=a.346550778760940.79687.100002180620738&type=1&theater

  • 211. Noah  |  January 19, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    R, agree or disagree with this?

    “any human being anywhere is well within his rights to do whatever necessary and by any means necessary to protect his life and property especially in a country where the Federal government itself has proven it is either unable or unwilling to protect the lives and property of those human beings.”

  • 212. James  |  January 19, 2013 at 2:54 pm

    You’re welcome. Yes, Newt, I have heard of Angkor Wat. It is considered one of the best attractions in Cambodia. I don’t think you can see the whole complex in a day and do it justice .However, I think it would be worth your time even for a short while, but that is just me. Don’t miss it if you can find the time.

    I believe it is over a thousand years old.

    Another thing about Vietnam is pickpockets. They shouldn’t be any more blatant than in some other cities, but pay attention.

    I’ve never met Cambodians as far as I know, but the Vietnamese, Laotian, and Thai pilots one of our bases trained were nice, I’ve met some in the United States and was similarly impressed.

    I don’t know how many people in the hinterlands speak English.

    I think Thailand’s living standard averages higher than its neighbors, but it has extremes from rich to poor. Even the poor earn enough for basics, such as cell phones and motor bikes..

    While researching One Direction fan videos for a story, I found one in Thailand but not Vietnam or Cambodia. Maybe that implies something about the three countries, but I don’t know.

  • 213. James  |  January 19, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    That’s right rabbit. Libya.

    Speculation is that they are traceable to the American and European Arab Spring policy. I suspect the administration sent Susan Rice to the talk shows with the tape story because Obama wanted to hide his foreign policy failure before the election.

  • 214. Huck  |  January 19, 2013 at 3:25 pm

    I would like to visit Vietnam and talk to people about the human resource mobilization of the NVA during its revolution.

  • 215. poolman  |  January 19, 2013 at 3:41 pm

    Be sure not to wander off the beaten path. :shock:

    It was a controlled explosion, and shouldn’t have been a surprise, but the boom a couple of hundred yards away in this lush, rainswept district of central Vietnam nonetheless prompted the small group of nongovernmental organization (NGO) workers, locals, diplomats, and journalists there to witness the event to flinch and recoil. Then the relieved-looking group exhaled almost in unison, a nervous-sounding release as if mimicking the puffs of smoke rising from the explosion into the gray sky.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Making-a-difference/Change-Agent/2012/1105/One-by-one-Vietnam-deals-with-unexploded-bombs

  • 216. poolman  |  January 19, 2013 at 4:24 pm

    I’ve put off writing an article about what is likely to happen in 2013 so I could peruse the thousands of other articles by reputable bloggers, paid pundits, Wall Street shills and captured charlatans to gather their wisdom. It’s essential that I make predictions for 2013 so I can write another article in December rationalizing why 90% of my predictions failed to materialize. Reading all of these 2013 prediction articles made things much clearer for me. I now know for sure:

    *The stock market will reach an all-time high.
    *The stock market will fall 42%.
    *The economy will strengthen as the year progresses.
    *The economy will descend into a depression.
    *The USD will strengthen.
    *The USD will collapse.
    *Gas prices will set new highs.
    *Gas prices will fall below 2012 levels.
    *Gold will rise to $10,000 per ounce.
    *Gold will drop below $1,000 per ounce.
    *We will experience hyperinflation.
    *We will experience horrific deflation.
    *Obama will compromise with the Republicans and put the country on a path to prosperity.
    *Obama will create a debt ceiling crisis and assume dictatorial powers as a result.
    *Snooki will be a better mother than Kim Kardashian.
    *Honey Boo Boo will beat I Didn’t Know I Was Pregnant in the Neilson ratings.

    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/01/fiscal-farce-failure-fantasy-fornication.html

  • 217. Alfie  |  January 19, 2013 at 4:48 pm

    While researching One Direction fan videos for a story, I found one in Thailand but not Vietnam or Cambodia. Maybe that implies something about the three countries, but I don’t know.
    …that Vietnam and Cambodia have better taste in music?

  • 219. Noah  |  January 20, 2013 at 12:08 am

    This guy is as bad a wacko as Oblama. Gun laws now this.

    http://weaselzippers.us/2013/01/19/ny-dem-gov-andrew-cuomo-pushing-bill-allowing-third-trimester-abortions/

  • 220. Noah  |  January 20, 2013 at 12:11 am

    Here it is. This is the video where I was asked to keep the Democrat proposals for the NY SAFE Act away from the public. This list was given to me by a colleague and it is not confidential.

    This bill was an attack on the 2nd amendment and the Democrats clearly wanted to dismantle the work of the Founding Fathers. None of these amendments were included in the final bill thanks to us fighting back. I will not stand silent while these unpatriotic proposals are pathetically thrown at us a 11 o’clock at night:

    1. Confiscation of “assault weapons”
    2. Confiscation of ten round clips
    3. Statewide database for ALL Guns
    4. Continue to allow pistol permit holder’s information to be replaced to the public
    5. Label semiautomatic shotguns with more than 5 rounds or pistol grips as “assault weapons”
    6. Limit the number of rounds in a magazine to 5 and confiscation and forfeiture of banned magazines
    7. Limit possession to no more than two (2) magazines
    8. Limit purchase of guns to one gun per person per month
    9. Require re-licensing of all pistol permit owners
    10. Require renewal of all pistol permits every five years
    11. State issued pistol permits
    12. Micro-stamping of all guns in New York State
    13. Require licensing of all gun ammo dealers
    14. Mandatory locking of guns at home
    15. Fee for licensing, registering weapons

  • 221. dead rabbit  |  January 20, 2013 at 1:02 am

  • 222. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:25 am

    Pete Williams, who is NBC’s chief Justice correspondent, reported the following in the video posted above:

    The date of the video is December 15 when facts were still in dispute. If Pete Williams reported this yesterday I might be more convinced.

    To this day, what most folks believe about Columbine is pure fiction. So, at this point, I don’t know which details to believe about Newtown and which ones to dismiss. I do not take too seriously a month old video posted by an anti-Obama web site with a clear editorial proclivity.

    I do find it troubling that as the gun control debate rages on, the event that actually sparked it has gone off everyone’s radar. In other words, why after a month of investigation have we not been told more details of the crime …. more accurate details?

    Don’t get me wrong. I’m not pulling a Poolman here. I know the kids were killed and I think it’s a damn safe bet Adam Lanza did it. But over 30 days after the murders there should no longer be any doubt about what weapons were used.

  • 223. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:32 am

    Regarding the 2nd amendment, I also read something from one of the founders (I’d have to source it tomorrow as I’m bushed right now and about to go to bed) that said the other reason people needed to be armed was to protect themselves from the state government, as opposed to the Fed. The logic went something like this — because the state government is local their oppression could more quickly and efficiently be administered and damage could be done before the Fed could come to the rescue of the citizenry.

    If that rings a bell with any of you more well-read folks, feel free to source it for me while I catch a few zzzzz’s.

  • 224. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:43 am

    While James and Rabbit buy their new computing tools, this frugal liberal makes do with a tower with memory issues (Windows 7 which I love seems to be a memory hog) while my laptops sits in a fix-it shop getting the fan replaced. Before the laptop finally died on a fan error, I could fry a friggin egg on that thing. Some of the keys on the keyboard were actually hot to the touch.

    If my layoff of almost six years ago had any impact, the most obvious is my inability to buy (without a second thought) anything I thought I needed. But I guess that was the wrong philosophy. I’m probably living saner now albeit with a budget so tight I walk around singing soprano all the time. :neutral:

  • 225. Huck  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:44 am

    I think I will wait until I read the source document before I offer a comment…..

  • 226. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:45 am

    I wrote a letter of complaint and got a smart-assed reply from some Ivy-league mid-level guy.

    HEY! I resemble that remark! :-)

  • 227. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:47 am

    Thailand is notorious for child prostitution. I wonder how obvious it is to tourists who are not looking for it.

  • 228. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:51 am

    Poolman, thanks for Absurdity Today. I’d never heard of it. I liked the vid so much I subscribed.

  • 229. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:55 am

    I really hope the House GOP stands by its proposal to extend the debt ceiling to cover 3 months and then tell Senate Democrats to piss off until they pass a budget.

    I actually agree with you on this one.

    However, isn’t the whole budget thing a bit of a red herring? Doesn’t The Budget Control Act serve as the current budget for the time being?

  • 230. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 3:02 am

    “any human being anywhere is well within his rights to do whatever necessary and by any means necessary to protect his life and property especially in a country where the Federal government itself has proven it is either unable or unwilling to protect the lives and property of those human beings.”

    Ooooo, I feel a trap being laid. Is that Malcolm X?

    I think “whatever necessary and by any means necessary” covers A LOT of ground so I would be uncomfortable signing up for that.

    I do believe that it is a reasonable expectation that people should be able to protect themselves and their loved ones. That is why I do not oppose the possession of a handgun for self defense (even though I myself would not own one).

    Protecting one’s property gets real murky for me. I think someone may have said this earlier in the thread or maybe I read it elsewhere but are you really going to shoot someone who is about to steal your rake, your lawnmower or even your car?

  • 231. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 3:07 am

    Noah your comments are better than your Facebook photos. Take that as a compliment if you like. :neutral:

  • 232. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 3:19 am

    Totally off topic but as blog owner I exercise my prerogative to brag. Today’s scores:

    Vault — 9.825 (1st place in age group)
    Bar — 9.6 (1st place)
    Beam — 9.35 (3rd place)
    Floor — 9.525 (1st place)
    All Around — 38.3 (1st place)

    That’s four ribbons and a trophy. I spent the afternoon doing my best to live in the moment because the future scares the crap out of me. My kid did her personal best in each event today. As she raises the bar on her own performance, I worry what will happen when she finally dips. Even she is intimidated by her vault score. (“How can I top that?”) We just keep telling her to do her best.

    Fortunately, she’s not going the dumb jock route just yet. She brought home A+, A and A-’s on her report card yesterday. All I can say as her daddy is I’m not worthy.

  • 233. Huck  |  January 20, 2013 at 3:29 am

    “Doesn’t The Budget Control Act serve as the current budget for the time being?”

    “serve as” is not the same as “is”

    It’s time for the Senate to do it’s job. Let’s pass a budget so the American people can see the price tag for the government they elected and the officials they elected can sign their names to it (which is what Harry Reid has been trying to avoid for nearly 4 years).

    Congrats to Little Miss Rutherford. Enjoy it, dad.

  • 234. Raji  |  January 20, 2013 at 7:49 am

    Congratulations to your daughter, Rutherford. When she finally dips it will be because her body changes as she gets older and she will have to relearn skills. Hopefully during this stage you can encourage her to continue if she still likes the sport. Her balance will change with each growth spurt. Some children have gradual growth spurts and the adjustment is not as hard. If and when this happens which it will, be there to help explain the changes in her body as she won’t be able to relate the two.

  • 235. Raji  |  January 20, 2013 at 8:19 am

    R@222 Rutherford, the why and hows of these events are of so little importance in the all over picture. Even if the CDC and other federal agencies had compiled data to advocate gun control issues it still boils down to mentally disturbed individuals involved in mass shootings. Does anyone remember the Virginia sniper?

    There is no gun control law that will stop this activity. What would probably help is a ban against Media reporting and making the punishment fit the crime. The perpetrator should have to face a firing squad regardless of his mental state. Isn’t it interesting that not one female has committed a mass shooting or at least to my knowledge.

    The laws against driving while drunk has not stopped the drunks that want to drive only the people who normally obey the law which premise would extend to gun control laws. Did the driving while drunk law actually stop drunk driving? Where’s the data?

    Bottom line! There is no solution!

  • 236. Raji  |  January 20, 2013 at 8:39 am

    On another topic I’ve been reading about the research going into the use of iPad’s and e-books in education. Thomas Friedman gave a speech with a complex but simple message ” Today’s children are not going to be measured by their knowledge retention skills. Instead they will be assessed as to their ability to acquire knowledge efficiently and use it creatively.”

    What is key to his statement is that the critical skill sets of the future will be very different than those most of us have learned in the past. Many educators are beginning to think that skills and knowledge should be outcomes of creative exploration rather than outcomes of drill and practice.

    The ongoing research should be of great interest to anyone involved in education today.

  • 237. PFesser  |  January 20, 2013 at 9:20 am

    raji – I would submit that, while it is very important to be able to think in creative ways, you absolutely must have an essential store of knowledge with which to work. You have to be able to manipulate the language, or all your creativity will never be discovered. You have to be able to do math if you want to be an engineer. One can get a computer program to design airplane wings, but without a fundamental basis in theory, you won’t have the slightest idea what the program did. Without basic knowledge, when faced with a problem, you won’t know where to start.

    The fact is, a lot of learning IS rote and IS boring and IS NOT fun. One of the most important things a student needs to learn is how to handle tasks that are not fun and how to have the discipline to complete them anyway.

  • 238. James  |  January 20, 2013 at 10:01 am

    Congratulations to your daughter and family, Rutherford! She didn’t achieve what she did in a vacume. You all gave her the encouragement and tools. Yes, you are worthy.

    217 Alfie, that is funny. I didn’t think of that.

    I agree with Ragi. There is no solution. We can do things which make us feel better, but the problem remains until next time.

    I also agree with Pfessor. One of the fan videos I found illustrates his point. The girls attend an English language school in France, because their parents work there.

    Students are proficient in at least three languages, higher math which is taught to each student in two languages, the arts, and at least one sport. The Dutch contingent can speak British, Midwestern, and Southern American English.

    They made a creative video because rote learning gave them the skills to do so.

  • 239. Alfie  |  January 20, 2013 at 10:09 am

    Yeah I’d double up that and say that especially in the public Ed sphere the skill that will be nurtured will be information gathering. Whether the sources or info is credible will be secondary. In the higher $ brackets you’ll see people creatively rehashing the same ole same,nothing original. I fear science,definitely journalism and any number of media arts backs this up today. Originality is the casualty of our society.

  • 240. James  |  January 20, 2013 at 10:17 am

    I don’t know how obvious child prostitution in Thailand is Rutherford. I do know the founders of a British organization called Love 146 had to find contacts and ask questions before ending their quest. They were taken to a large room with views of the girls who were mostly watching cartoons on television.

    Each girl had a number. Only one stared back at them as if her spirit was still alive, Her number became the name of the organization.

    According to Love 146, thousands of young children are brought into the UK for sexual reasons. They made a flash mob in Trafalger Square with professional West End singers and dancers and a song Annie Lennox donated as a fund raiser.

  • 241. Alfie  |  January 20, 2013 at 10:35 am

    @Raji 235
    You are spot on. Although I’d ask for a responsible press instead of a ban it is a proven fact that the media hype of earlier events play into either the true mental illness angle and simple fuck head angle of new perpetrators. An example in practice from my EMS days would be how schizoid patients filter stimuli including news etc. I’ll step up and say it is tragic,I’ve watched them drawing conclusions that are out of this world,they’re unshakeable more times than not,you just do your best and hope you convey an aura of safety. So even less sensationalism may not totally cure things I think it may be very positive. No doubt it helps on the glory seekers who may or may not be found in the DSM 5

  • 242. poolman  |  January 20, 2013 at 10:46 am

    In other words, why after a month of investigation have we not been told more details of the crime …. more accurate details?

    It gets weirder and creepier the deeper you look. This link really is one of those ‘things that make you hmmmm’ (h/t Arsenio Hall)…

    http://lybio.net/gene-rosen-audition-sandy-hook-production/news-politics/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=gene-rosen-audition-sandy-hook-production

  • 243. Alfie  |  January 20, 2013 at 11:54 am

    Without clicking the link but focusing on the the name George Rosen…that has all ready been trashed. Two different guys. George Rosen of Ct is 7 years older and has never lived outside of Ct and is not a member of SAG.
    The investigation is ongoing and arduous. The parents have been involved in meetings with law enforcement to keep them apprise. These efforts and events have proven frustrating to,parents because for example Lanza is being afforded rights under CT state law over his health history. Another path of this investigation found state and federal authorities fighting the Lanza’s ISP for data.
    Don’t be so shocked that the form of government we have and the rights thereof are what slows us. I personally find the depth and expense of the investigation to be a waste of time.
    In closing I have to say again and this time for real and forever that I cannot see any way I can attend a thead polluted by the diabolical and shit laden mutterings of the Poolman. Everything he has on offer regard Sandy Hook has been disproven. He and his are proof of the disgrace that the Internet shitbags bring to us all. Have him and enjoy him. You allow him,you own him

  • 244. James  |  January 20, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    Another thing is that mental illness can be unstable. Someone might purchase a gun with no intention of malivance. Two days later, that person might snap. How can we predict such events?

    I hope you stay, Alfie. Regard it as volunteer service.

  • 245. James  |  January 20, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    Its what I did at the other site until I decided I had served my time and it was someone else’s turn.

    I agree that the nurtured skill will be information gathering. The result will be derivative regurgitation of data compared with a few who can manipulate it in novel ways.

    For example, most of the fan videos adhered to the same basic formula with identical information about One Direction and a standard “please come to our country because we love you” message.

    The Come to South of France video. stood out. One of the Dutch girls said “just so you know, I like to get naked.” Two sang “lets get naked together” and one said quietly, “just the three of us.” They weren’t talking about the boys, they were joking about themselves and implied lesbianism.

  • 246. dead rabbit  |  January 20, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    “The fact is, a lot of learning IS rote and IS boring and IS NOT fun. One of the most important things a student needs to learn is how to handle tasks that are not fun and how to have the discipline to complete them anyway.”-Pfessor

    That is so true.

  • 247. Just a Lurker  |  January 20, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    raji – I totally agree that DWI/DUI laws have not stopped drunk drivers. But I do believe it has reduced the number of drunk drivers on the roads. My ex talked of owning a bar when he retired because it was a great business especially in this area. But he finds there are fewer customers who drink less and some come with designated drivers. My own family has invited me to certain celebrations only to be the designated driver! At a recent gathering of old friends and those who once thought nothing of driving drunk and told humorous stories of their drive home admitted they would never do it now and can’t believe they once thought it was okay. Many of the young people I know have one in their group who does not drink that night. So while the law does not eliminate drunk drivers it does make people think. It does take time to change a people’s thinking or habits but is that a reason not to do something.

  • 248. James  |  January 20, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Iowa public television is broadcasting a documentary about slavery. Some slaves escaped but found freedom so daunting they returned to their owners. Unmentioned was that after the war, many slaves stayed with their former owners and did the same work for wages.

    The War of 1812 played an important role in the abolition movement. Owners rented slaves to privateers who attacked enemy ships. The work was so dangerous, everyone, including slaves voted on when and if they attacked certain ships.

    The slaves who had faced death gained tremendous self confidence and were strong activists for freedom. They also played an important role in organizing the Underground Railroad because they had learned to navigate by the stars and taught the skill to others.

    Lurker has a good point about drinking and driving. However, it is harder but not impossible to equate guns and booze. One is guaranteed by the Constitution as a means of self protection and for food supply. The other is a form of recreation.

    I was often the designated driver in the Air Force too.

  • 249. Huck  |  January 20, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    Guns and booze can’t be equated because we didn’t outlaw whiskey in order to curb drunk driving.

  • 250. dead rabbit  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    Legal consequences work great for people who are not going on a killing spree. I have no doubt there is less drunk driving today. In fact, I even think the pendulum has swung to far. A .08 doesn’t mess with my driving at all. Now lack of sleep…different story.

  • 251. Huck  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    Rutherford on Twitter: “#FaceTheNation is bash Obama day. No one bothers to mention that GOP plotted against him literally on day one ”

    And Obama supporters never bother to mention that he told the GOP to piss off on his first day, too. “I won” was the response they got after they were invited by him to talk about issues and they actually bothered to offer their ideas.

    Barack Obama was given the fight he wanted and did his share to provoke.

  • 252. Huck  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    “Legal consequences work great for people who are not going on a killing spree.”

    We can’t even suggest the death penalty because a lot of these idiots are killing themselves after the deed.

  • 253. Noah  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    #1 The right to own guns is Constitutionally protected.
    #2 With 200-300 million out there, it is a bell than cannot be unrung.
    #3 Removing guns, if you could (and you cant), disarms the innocent, not the criminal.
    #4 Bet. Try and take people’s guns, at the very least thousands will die trying to keep them, worst, civil war. Is it worth it?
    #5 per #3, reducing clip/magazine size, availability, affects only those willing to obey the law, giving a decided advantage to criminals.

    Considering these 5 points, explain why you still think it is a viable solution to do any or all of these things. Explain how you would go about disarming the public without putting them at further risk from criminals that will not obey the law.

    Making it illegal has been proven conclusively to have little impact. Look at prohibition & drugs, no matter the penalty, people still want it, and people still get it. The people who suffer are the innocent who get robbed and killed to pay for the criminals desire to have it.

    Chicago and New York have the strictest gun laws in the nation, and some of the highest crimes by guns in the nation, and you still “claim” to care about people? Explain this to me please.

  • 254. poolman  |  January 20, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    re 243 and 242 has nothing to do with SAG, FWIW. The SAG story is a part of the vast disinformation that is out there, as I am sure you are well aware.

  • 255. James  |  January 20, 2013 at 3:44 pm

    We did outlaw whiskey and it didn’t work any better than outlawing guns would.

  • 256. Huck  |  January 20, 2013 at 3:59 pm

    “We did outlaw whiskey and it didn’t work any better than outlawing guns would.”

    We outlawed alcohol, not just whiskey. I was attempting a subtle point by equating a particular type of alcohol (whiskey) to a particular type of firearm (“assault rifles”).

    However, I do agree with your point.

  • 257. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 5:48 pm

    Raji thanks for the advice on the growth spurt. I wasn’t even thinking about that part . I was more thinking of the near term dip that is inevitable as her personal best gets harder and harder for her to beat.

  • 258. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 5:52 pm

    Did the driving while drunk law actually stop drunk driving? Where’s the data?

    No, of course people still drive drunk but cracking down on DUI has reduced alcohol related traffic deaths over the past 30 years or so.

    Perhaps more powerful was the MADD phenomenon which made drunk drivers social pariahs.

  • 259. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 5:55 pm

    Regarding the new focus of education, this will drive yet another wedge in our society between the traditionalists who believe in a firm foundation in a “core curriculum” and those who believe it is more important to know where to find information and how to use it “just in time.”

  • 260. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 6:10 pm

    And Obama supporters never bother to mention that he told the GOP to piss off on his first day, too.

    Didn’t happen on day 1. When I say literally, I mean literally. The very night of the inauguration a group of influential GOP’ers including Newt Gingrich, and Eric Cantor met in private to plot the destruction of the Obama presidency. It’s a f*cking outrage.

    I’ve got a PBS “Frontline” queued up on my TiVo that I’m eager to watch that spells out the whole nasty scenario. It was also mentioned in “It’s Even Worse Than it Looks” by Mann and Ornstein. This administration started off with ZERO good will from the opposition.

  • 261. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    Noah, let me say it again, no one (at least not I) is talking about “taking away your guns”. There is no way in hell we will get the guns already out there turned in and destroyed. Furthermore it wouldn’t be a good idea. Let me repeat, owning a gun for self protection and recreation is protected by the Constitution and interfering with that is a fool’s errand.

    The gun is a product. Why is it the only product immune from any safety standards? I think limited clip size is a safety standard. How about trigger locks? Tell me Noah, when was the last time a type of gun was recalled from the manufacturer for faulty operation? I’d bet NEVER. So we can recall a toaster or have standards on what makes a toaster safe but we can’t do the same with a lethal weapon to make it less likely to be misused.

  • 262. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 6:20 pm

    A CNBC analyst was on Bill Maher last Friday and she made an interesting observation. When there is demand, decreasing supply NEVER works. Folks just find another way to fulfill their needs.

    So the idea is limiting the supply of guns will not work. You need to find a way to change the culture such that the demand decreases. America being America, that seems equally impossible. :-(

  • 263. Just a Lurker  |  January 20, 2013 at 7:03 pm

    IMO For all those who feel there is nothing we can do to curb gun violence. No laws, no gun free zones, no restrictions on guns, no restrictions on manufacturers. Those who agree with the law that gun manufacturers and sellers can not be held liable. Gun owners should not be made to carry liability insurance etc, etc. Those who believe the founding fathers envisioned a country where every man, women and child could be armed to the teeth with no regulations and no restrictions.

    Then I think it only fair when we find ourselves faced with another shooter, those who believe in the above should be willing to stand up and make themselves, their children, their spouse and their mother the targets and victims rather than those who do not agree with the above. Fair is fair and accepting the responsibility for your belief.

    Am I being reasonable? No. But then neither are they.

    I have an extended family member who is a gun owner/supporter. She bought all of her grown children and their spouses a handgun one Christmas. Not long after and one week before his wedding, her son picked up his Christmas present, put it to his head and blew his brains out. No note, no indication, no known reason. Would he have found another way, probably? But it was too easy, too quick and no turning back once he pulled the trigger.

  • 264. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    Lurker I was thinking this very thing while watching Bill Maher (delayed) last night. He was talking about how he owns a gun for protection and I said to my wife statistics show he is far more likely to commit suicide with that gun than use it in self defense. And Bill Maher is nutty enough for the odds to be even greater in this case.

    The suicide weapon of choice is the gun. We’re a gun obsessed country and we’ve created a nightmare in the process.

  • 265. James  |  January 20, 2013 at 8:06 pm

    One of my high school classmates shot himself during the farm crisis. The husband of one of my wife’s teachers killed himself in the basement while his wife was at school. My cousin shot a man who was threatening him a week after his father suddenly died, and then he blew himself away.

    Those personal tragedies are unconnected to most of us. Most cannot be stopped. If one wants to end it, he/she will find a way. .People legally and illegally own guns.Some of them want our stuff or revenge. That and one’s freedom of self defense remain the central issue.Citing suicides or random fire arms mistakes won’t change anything. As Ragi wrote, there is no solution. If you can think of one you will be famous.

  • 266. Huck  |  January 20, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    “Didn’t happen on day 1… This administration started off with ZERO good will from the opposition.”

    So the fact that he said it 2 days later absolves him of his provocation? It then isn’t an outrage that he invited the opposition party to come to him and discuss issues only to turn around and all but tell them he wasn’t interested in anything they had to say because he won (as if they all hadn’t also won their own elections)?

    I would argue what Obama did was worse. As you point out, what the GOP did on “day 1″ was in a private meeting amongst fellow party members. Obama told the GOP to its face to piss off. And by the end of that same day everyone in the country knew it. You regard that as starting things off with good will?

    You act like Obama didn’t have his own private meeting where it was discussed that he wasn’t going to give the GOP anything. Or do you think he just pulled “I won” out of his hat? C’mon man. Barack Obama doesn’t leave things like that to chance. You know well he planned those exact words.

    Again, I say. Barack Obama got the fight he helped provoke. Do you deny that he provoked as much as he was provoked by others?

    After 4 years, I am so sick of this “you and me against the world” pity party Obama and his supporters have been throwing for themselves. Neither side holds the moral high ground when it comes to starting things off in bad faith.

    Obama (and the entire democratic caucus) thrives on these conflicts. He sets them up so that he can either win them, or point his finger in blame when he isn’t allowed to win them outright.

    And you know that.

    ————————–

    “Then I think it only fair when we find ourselves faced with another shooter, those who believe in the above should be willing to stand up and make themselves, their children, their spouse and their mother the targets and victims rather than those who do not agree with the above. Fair is fair and accepting the responsibility for your belief.”

    We live in a violent and free society. As we are seeing, that can be a dangerous combination. Since we all live in it, we are all potential victims of it. Any one of us at any time can find ourselves a victim of the freedoms we and others enjoy.

    So we are already doing what you suggest is fair.

  • 267. Rutherford  |  January 20, 2013 at 8:43 pm

    Huck, chronology is what it is. Cantor etal. were not provoked before plotting. And yes, telling someone to f*ck off to their face in public is far more the higher ground than scheming behind closed doors.

    If we move the timeline forward a tad, please tell me when any Senate minority leader has EVER said in our history “My number one objective is to make POTUS X a one term President.” The animosity aimed at this President from ELECTED officials is unprecedented in modern times.

    Yes, Bush 43 got a lot of abuse but 99% of it was grassroots. No elected official ever yelled “YOU LIE” at him during an open session of Congress.

    Either the disrespect shown the President by those who ought to know better is a sign of the times or there are “other reasons”. I’ll leave those to your conjecture.

  • 268. Just a Lurker  |  January 20, 2013 at 9:07 pm

    Yes and the gun manufacturers, gun shows, gun dealers and gun lobbyist, 2nd Amendment yahoos and the government is bad yahoos are doing a damn good job of making sure it remains a violent society and that they continue raking in the big bucks.

    “Any one of us at any time can find ourselves a victim of the freedoms we and others enjoy.”
    Good thing Mr. Viagra believed in preventing victims, eh?

  • 269. Huck  |  January 20, 2013 at 9:10 pm

    “Huck, chronology is what it is. Cantor etal. were not provoked before plotting. And yes, telling someone to f*ck off to their face in public is far more the higher ground than scheming behind closed doors.”

    Again, you are assuming Obama did not have his own private meeting about telling the GOP “I won” and disregarding everything it had to say. From what you know about Barack Obama, do you think that is an accurate assumption? I do not.

    Did we even know about that private GOP meeting by the morning of day 3? Find me an article about it that is dated before January 23, 2009 and I will declare you the winner on that point.

    “telling someone to f*ck off to their face in public is far more the higher ground than scheming behind closed doors”

    “please tell me when any Senate minority leader has EVER said in our history “My number one objective is to make POTUS X a one term President.””

    List for us all of the members of the opposition party who have ever publicly declared they want the president to be re-elected.

    “No elected official ever yelled “YOU LIE” at him during an open session of Congress.”

    At least I am becoming clear on the rules. Talking shit behind closed doors is wrong. But only if the word gets out. And talking shit to someone’s face is also wrong. Unless it is Barack Obama talking the shit and then it is cool because he was provoked by a private meeting he probably didn’t know about at the time.

    Since we’re talking history here, please tell us when was the last time in modern history the president took a public shit on members of the US Supreme Court while they sat there and the world was watching?

    I am absolutely willing to admit that the GOP has been out to get Obama from day 1, has engaged in obstruction, and fostered conflict during his term in office.

    You, however, are unwilling to admit that Barack Obama and his entire party have been out to get the GOP from day 2 (that we know of), have engaged in obstruction, and fostered conflict during his term in office.

  • 270. Huck  |  January 20, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    “Yes and the gun manufacturers, gun shows, gun dealers and gun lobbyist, 2nd Amendment yahoos and the government is bad yahoos are doing a damn good job of making sure it remains a violent society and that they continue raking in the big bucks.”

    I think you left out a few big buck industries who have probably done their fair share.

    “Good thing Mr. Viagra believed in preventing victims, eh?”

    I am afraid I have no clue what that means. If it is directed at me, I can assure you it is inaccurate.

  • 271. Noah  |  January 20, 2013 at 10:53 pm

    “Noah, let me say it again, no one (at least not I) is talking about “taking away your guns”.”

    See post 220.

    “Tell me Noah, when was the last time a type of gun was recalled from the manufacturer for faulty operation? I’d bet NEVER. So we can recall a toaster or have standards on what makes a toaster safe but we can’t do the same with a lethal weapon to make it less likely to be misused.”

    HORRIBLE analogy. We do not recall toasters because someone sits in a tub and drops it into the water killing themselves. We DO recall them for faulty manufacturing. Guns are a precision instrument. If they are incorrectly designed, it is usually quite obvious before they are ever put up for sale.

    Zero points, try again, and hey maybe answer the questions I asked rather than glossing them over. 253 had some questions, one in particular to this argument I think you should answer, or admit you cannot. Same for you Lurker. I would like to see you answer to these glaring flaws in your logic that I think expose your true motivations, and public safety has nothing to do with it.

  • 272. Noah  |  January 20, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    “As Ragi wrote, there is no solution. If you can think of one you will be famous.”

    The solution is obvious, at least to me. If your looking to stop the killings, or the criminals, or whatever, then look to the people doing the deeds and take corrective/preventative action to stop these things from happening.

    The tool is irrelevant to the problem. Going after the gun is like trying to find the cure for a runny nose when you should be looking for the cause of the cold. You might stop the runny nose someday, but you have done nothing to stop that which causing you to have the runny nose in the first place.

  • 273. dead rabbit  |  January 20, 2013 at 11:16 pm

    Ouch. The latest Economist (and they endorsed him)

    Having ignored the recommendations of the deficit committee he himself established, Mr Obama has never given any sign, other than rhetorically, of being at all serious about cutting “entitlements”: these are the pensions and government health-care schemes for the poor and elderly that will overwhelm the budget as the population ages and medical costs continue their uncontrolled rise. Far from reforming entitlements, Mr Obama added an expensive new one in his first term: subsidised health insurance for lower-paid workers. And the president has just avoided coming up with any cuts in the deal made on January 1st to stop America heading over the fiscal cliff, despite bullying the Republicans in Congress to accept tax rises on the rich.

    An America that cannot deal with its financial problems other than through repeated crises followed by shabby postponements will eventually go broke. And its capacity to offer leadership to the world is gravely diminished. Why should leaders in Beijing, Brasília, Bogotá or even Berlin see anything to emulate in Washington? If Mr Obama corrects this, he will be seen as a transformative figure. If not, future generations will look back on “the Bush-Obama years” as a time when two presidents stoked up a very foreseeable disaster.

  • 274. dead rabbit  |  January 20, 2013 at 11:31 pm

    “Either the disrespect shown the President by those who ought to know better is a sign of the times or there are “other reasons”.” -R

    He does lie. He lied about Obamacare and then did a 180 in front of the SCOTUS. Total lie. He lied about Benghazi.

    Fuck him. Fuck um all. Could care less about MSNBC/Rutherford’s obsession with his slightly brown skin. Looks just like John Boehner’s skin.

    Even if I did care about things like that…..don’t I have 16.3 trillion other reasons to worry about?

  • 275. dead rabbit  |  January 20, 2013 at 11:51 pm

    Anyone following the tension between Japan and China? It’s starting to look like they really might go to war. Japan slightly hawkish now….China mysteriously drawing a line in the sand over some stupid, sea gull poop splattered rocks that pretend to be islands. Unbelievable.

  • 276. Huck  |  January 21, 2013 at 12:05 am

    “Looks just like John Boehner’s skin.”

    The skin of any and all politicians look the same.

    Scaly.

    “Anyone following the tension between Japan and China?”

    I haven’t read anything in the last few weeks but I know they were getting pretty pissy with each other around summer time.

  • 277. Huck  |  January 21, 2013 at 1:54 am

    “McConnell made his remarks in an interview that appeared in the National Journal on Oct. 23, 2010 — nearly two years after Obama was elected president.”

    I am starting to wonder if this supposed GOP inauguration meeting is BS, too. So far as I can tell, the story originated from this book, which was released in April, 2012. Surely there must be something that came out about it the next day. After all, why else would Obama have engaged the GOP on that day 3 meeting with such disdain?

    Is there anything to back up the author of this book? Or is this another one of those “John McCain called his wife a cunt and I know it’s true because I read it in a book” kind of deals?

  • 278. Huck  |  January 21, 2013 at 1:57 am

    I wonder how much chronology matters now….

  • 279. Noah  |  January 21, 2013 at 5:17 am

    Try this one again, got ate.

    http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/01/16/confessions-of-a-gun-shop-owner/?ncid=webmail40

  • 280. Raji  |  January 21, 2013 at 8:26 am

    Huck@266 ” Any one of us at any time can find ourselves a victim of the freedoms we and others enjoy.”

    Spot on, Huck. We should take on the responsibility of becoming a victim if we enjoy our freedoms and not go crying to the government to protect us from ourselves. Not only have we become a “nanny” state in terms of dollar entitlements we have become a “nanny” state in terms of our personal lives. Sometimes you just have to accept that when you fall off the cliff you might just break a leg and it’s no one else’s fault but your own.

    ps McCain did call his wife that word and no I didn’t read it out of a book but heard it from someone who was there.

    Good answer to Mr. Viagra :lol:

  • 281. Raji  |  January 21, 2013 at 8:52 am

    Alfie, I agree with you but the only point to Poolman’s ramblings is to know that there are people out there who believe in all that s**t.
    The problem with Poolman’s ramblngs is it causes people like you with a sane mind to walk away.

  • 282. James  |  January 21, 2013 at 9:33 am

    Noah, there is no solution. We only have partial solutions. Most mass shooters are either demented due to personal chemical imbalance or they are on mind- altering medications.Others are fine until they snap.

    One can check better and deny such people the right to buy guns, and such restrictions will decrease the number of mass shootings. Some can be hospitalized, but if they are obeying t he law, we cannot take action until they actually do something.We also risk sending people to mental institutions for political reasons as the Soviets did.

    The line in Jurasic Park “nature will find a way” applies to murderers and other people good and bad. Mexico, for example, has restrictive gun laws. The only gun store in Mexico City is run by the Army. Yet, criminal violence is so widespread in some parts of the country that armed civilian vigilantes in two cities have been making their own arrests and turning people over to the police.,

  • 283. James  |  January 21, 2013 at 9:43 am

    Joe Wilson was wrong to say it where he did, but he correctly judged Obama when he said ” You lie.” Many of us knew Obama would lie before he won the election, because information that couldn’t bother our media was on record..

    As I wrote before, Obama behaves as my wife did when she bargained for items in Naples with similar results. Boehnor agreed to raise taxes last summer, but at the last minute. Obama killed the deal demanding an even bigger tax increase.

    The press also covers for Biden. He said in Iowa on Saturday that he is proud to be President. Can you imagine the mockery if Sarah Palin had said it?

    Alfie “sane minds” cannot walk away.

    I also agree with 280. Our government and culture are turning us into a herd of feedlot cattle. We are easier to manage that way.

  • 284. poolman  |  January 21, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    The problem with Poolman’s ramblngs is it causes people like you with a sane mind to walk away.

    Gee thanks, Raji. [sarcasm] I don’t know if I would characterize Alfie’s mind as sane after some of his irrational statements this past year defending Rmoney and war(s). If sane, definitely not open-minded. He has done this before. The, I’ll take my toys and go home rant, is generally followed with some garbage about me at his own site. Apparently free speech only applies to some and only when it doesn’t tarnish Alfie’s (and others) American fantasy. Rutherford may not often agree with my POV, but it doesn’t threaten him to allow me to express it.

    Suppression of expression is a common theme today, as it has often been in the known eras of our past. ‘We like you as long as you don’t question authority.’ ‘Just be a cooperative worker bee and buzz in harmony.’

    This nation was founded on higher principles, though they have mostly eroded. I had not heard of Lupe Fiasco until today, and now include him in my list of ‘insane’ heroes.

  • 285. Rutherford  |  January 21, 2013 at 1:19 pm

    Sometimes you just have to accept that when you fall off the cliff you might just break a leg and it’s no one else’s fault but your own.

    Raji here is the problem with that statement. Was the Arizona nine year old Christina getting what she deserved when she got killed at a Gabby Giffords rally? Were those 20 kids in CT who were doing EXACTLY what they were supposed to be doing, falling off the cliff of their own accord? In particular with the CT case what is so troubling is you can’t use the old phrase “they were in the wrong place at the wrong time”. NO. They were exactly where they were supposed to be.

    I know you’re not intending to be flippant but this “your own fault” business can go too far. Reminds me of Herman Cain and his “if you don’t have a job it’s your own fault”.

    I agree the pendulum can swing too far the other way toward nanny state but let’s not get too “each man for himself” either.

  • 286. graychin  |  January 21, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    The DJIA closed at a five-year high on Friday.

    http://m.static.newsvine.com/servista/imagesizer?file=steve-benenAEF8CEEA-1E26-3C3D-4E52-41BE3EEE2D41.jpg&width=600

    This just goes to prove that the socialist Barack Hussein Obama is clearly the Worst Socialist Ever.

    You say that the stock market is a poor measure of a nation’s economic progress? I actually agree with you about that. But near the markets’ low ebb in 2009, the learned and august Wall Street Journal editorial page argued that: “The market has notably plunged since Mr. Obama introduced his budget last week, and that should be no surprise. The document was a declaration of hostility toward capitalists across the economy.”

    It would appear that the infallible Free Market in securities has changed its mind about the Obama Agenda. Either that, or the moronic doomsayers of 2009 were full of partisan poop.

    Which is it, guys?

    By the way – as I’m typing this, Beyonce is singing the National Anthem on the occasion of the re-inauguration of America’s 44th President. Happy Four More Years, y’all. Four More Years of the purposeful destruction of capitalism, by the least effective socialist in history.

  • 287. Raji  |  January 21, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    No Rutherford, I was not trying to be flippant but trying to say “sometimes” there is nothing our government can do to protect us regardless of laws. Nothing but Nothing could have stopped the tragedy in CT unless you make schools like prisons and not allow public rallies. You are taking a general statement and using single events to rationalize a need for a nanny state.

    Poolman, I’m sorry but some of your conspiracy theories are so far out there that I can’t conceive of a sane person buying into them. Frankly I didn’t react to most of them until you mentioned the conspiracy theories regarding the massacre in CT.

  • 288. Raji  |  January 21, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    @286 partisan :poop:

  • 289. Rutherford  |  January 21, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    Noah, there is no solution. We only have partial solutions.

    You know, this line of discourse gets awfully tiring. The entire legal system is based on partial solutions. If we had THE solution to crime, there would be none.

    Let me state the analogy one more time. This is what those who oppose ANY kind of gun safety regulation sound like:

    Doctor: You have cancer. We can treat it with chemo and radiation.
    Patient: What are my odds?
    Doctor: You have a 85% likelihood of survival.
    Patient: Forget the treatments doc. If it ain’t 100% I ain’t doing it.

    The other way to put it is folks like Noah want the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

  • 290. Huck  |  January 21, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    “Doctor: You have cancer. We can must, by law, treat it with chemo and radiation.
    Patient: What are my odds?
    Doctor: You have a 85% slim likelihood of survival. But if we can save even 1 life, it is worth the mandate on everyone.
    Patient: Forget the treatments doc. If it ain’t 100% I ain’t doing it….”

  • 291. Huck  |  January 21, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    It is funny reading Rutherford’s analogy after having him tell me my late-term and partial birth abortion analogy is off the mark in response to the “if we can save even 1 child it is worth it” meme.

  • 292. dead rabbit  |  January 21, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    Yeah! Greychin is back! Yeah. Things are awesome!

  • 293. poolman  |  January 21, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    Poolman, I’m sorry but some of your conspiracy theories are so far out there that I can’t conceive of a sane person buying into them.

    First, the ‘conspiracies’ I have shared are not exclusively MY theories. Just because you cannot conceive a ‘sane person’ buying into any of them doesn’t make them any less valid. It is more likely they are outside your comfort zone and you’d rather compartmentalize them as merely crazy notions. Did you even watch the link in 242? I posted it as a WTF? moment, looking for a rational explanation. Instead I got an immediate assumption and totally off base critique from someone labeled sane. GMAB!

    This attitude has been successful in marginalizing people and groups and is part of the official disinfo campaign since the American population began to question the Warren Commission’s findings. You can now read these stated goals in official FBI documents made public through that ‘dreaded’ FOIA.

    I see your attitude (and others) as resembling the way people defend abusive spouses and remain loyal no matter how destructive that stand is in their lives and the lives of their family.

    Thankfully, there are still some out here willing to express dissent. At one time THAT was considered our patriotic duty. Now, it is labeled a form of terrorism, and they/we are quickly attempting to close the avenues for this type of free speech.

    Aaron Swartz, anyone?

  • 294. James  |  January 21, 2013 at 4:01 pm

    Most people support some form of gun safety including background checks and denial of sales to felons and mentally ill people. As you noted, Rutherford, our legal system is a partial solution to crime.

    However, you have created a strawman who cannot support himself without someone holding him by the shoulders. Huck knocked him over.

    One could also say “you have an 85% chance of a cure with a new drug. However side effects kill 10% of the patients. Therefore, we have banned the drug’s use and deny you the right to take your chances. If we save even one life by discontinuing the drug’s use we will serving society.”

  • 295. James  |  January 21, 2013 at 4:17 pm

    285, Alanis Morissette supports Ragi’s view.

    “He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids goodbye. He waited his whole damn life to take that flight.And as the plane crashed down, he thought ‘Well isn’t this nice…’

    And isn’t it ironic, don’t you think? Well, life has a funny way of sneaking ujp on you when you think everything’s okay and everything’s going right, And life has a funny way of helping you out when you think everything’s gone wrong and everything blows up in your face. And isn’t it ironic, don’t you think?”

    Christina, the children who were murdered, and others were products of impersonal chaotic destiny. Progressive events influencing one another made their deaths as inevitable as my great uncle’s death in 1909. Had he lived, I would not exist.Every tragic and happy event influences the future in now unknown ways.

  • 296. Noah  |  January 21, 2013 at 5:33 pm

    “Noah, there is no solution. We only have partial solutions.”

    I agree no solution is perfect, but I dont want that to be used as an excuse for doing nothing. I do think it is right direction to go that will produce the most tangible results.

    “This is what those who oppose ANY kind of gun safety regulation sound like”

    This is not product safety Rutherford, and I know you are “just” smart enough to know this. This is just a different angle to try and get your original agenda through.

    The fact you chose to avoid my questions and go once again to this tells me you do not have a sound logical defense for your argument. I have already proven that protecting others is not your primary reason. I will assume you will continue to dodge the real problems in your argument that my question addressed and instead ask what your primary motivations are in wanting gun control.

  • 297. Noah  |  January 21, 2013 at 5:35 pm

    “The other way to put it is folks like Noah want the perfect to be the enemy of the good.”

    Rutherford, you do realize that you more than almost everyone on here combined have dismissed more ideas and arguments because they were not 100% effective? Please show me where I have dismissed a notion even one time because it was not the perfect solution.

  • 298. Rutherford  |  January 21, 2013 at 5:48 pm

    “you have an 85% chance of a cure with a new drug. However side effects kill 10% of the patients. Therefore, we have banned the drug’s use and deny you the right to take your chances. If we save even one life by discontinuing the drug’s use we will serving society.”

    Damn … James that is good. I’ll have to mull that one over. (Not being sarcastic, btw.)

  • 299. Rutherford  |  January 21, 2013 at 5:55 pm

    Noah, since I’m slow, remind me one more time what you would change vis-a-vis US gun policy to make our society safer. If you can list one thing that you’d sign up for, my hat’s off to you, I salute you, I drink to your health.

  • 300. poolman  |  January 21, 2013 at 6:20 pm

  • 301. PFesser  |  January 21, 2013 at 6:37 pm

    R opined: “Noah, since I’m slow, remind me one more time what you would change vis-a-vis US gun policy to make our society safer. If you can list one thing that you’d sign up for, my hat’s off to you, I salute you, I drink to your health.”

    Most of us think the continued liberalization of gun laws would make society safer. It’s worked so far. Ready to sign on?

  • 302. PFesser  |  January 21, 2013 at 6:47 pm

    Graychin opined: “The DJIA closed at a five-year high on Friday.”

    Firstly, good to see you back!

    Secondly, perhaps the price of stocks inflates the exact same way as does a gallon of milk. Think so? How many shares of AAPL could you buy in 1971 (if it existed) for the price of 100 shares today?

    Answer: About 2,000. And much of that inflation has occurred during the money-printing binge of Hussein and The Bernank, although the public numbers don’t reflect it, because the gub’ment has changed the way it calculates inflation. Current best estimates are >10% per year among professional money-handlers.

    Still that impressed with the Dow 30?

  • 303. Rutherford  |  January 21, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Most of us think the continued liberalization of gun laws would make society safer. It’s worked so far. Ready to sign on?

    Yup, the more guns the better. In fact, since we know guns the tool of choice for suicides, let’s make sure the mentally ill get all the guns they want so we can thin out the herd. :neutral:

  • 304. Rutherford  |  January 21, 2013 at 7:01 pm

    Gray there is simply no arguing with gloom and doom. As 302 proves, when the POTUS sucks the big one, good news is bad news and bad news is worse news.

  • 305. Noah  |  January 21, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    Simple points do continue to elude you Rutherford. My point is that someone who says they graduated Harvard is afforded little leeway when it comes to making deceptive or dishonest arguments. You know better but do it anyway.

    I will be happy to answer your questions when you decide to quit dodging mine. I think we both know answering puts a spotlight on some glaring contradictions and failings in your argument that your not willing to face. In the past this has always been a conversation ender because of your obstinance.

    I do not understand how someone who claims their motivation is to save lives and reduce crime can constantly promote an ideology that has been proven to make things worse in those categories. Other questions are posted above as listed.

  • 306. PFesser  |  January 21, 2013 at 8:17 pm

    C’mon Rutherford – I have to believe you are being disingenuous in 304, because I have had several opportunities to observe you as a decent thinker. Inflation works for everything, not just the groceries, and that includes stocks. I won’t explain it further, because I do NOT believe you don’t understand it.

    re: 303. You know better than that nonsense, too. 100% of all gun owners support prohibition of firearm purchases or ownership by the mentally ill, and you KNOW it.

    Get yourself back on the beam here, old man… :wink:

  • 307. Noah  |  January 21, 2013 at 8:30 pm

    I know liberals and even some conservatives are tired of hearing Obama compared to Hitler. I don’t compare the two simply because I find them equally evil. The reason why Obama’s so easily comparable to Hitler is the way he is going about RULING the country.

    Obama is unlike any president we’ve ever had. His agenda doesn’t seem to follow any of the easily explained paths (socialist, liberal, democrat, communist, anti-colonial). It seems to follow his own destructive ideals I like to call the “Obama Agenda”.

    Hitler, and every other tyrant (Mao, Stalin, Caligula…), have all taken the exact same route every stinkin’ time. In short, they start by gaining popularity (being likeable isn’t reason enough to be president), dividing everyone into classes (races, Conservative and Liberal, sexes, incomes), sparking hate and fear of these divisions (hate the rich, cling to their guns and bibles), giving handouts and perks (welfare, obamaphones, obamacare) until majority is dependent upon govt (over 50% of America is on welfare), creating insurmountable debt, slowly disarming citizens (gun control), slowly taking away rights (executive orders, protesting against president is illegal), making himself more unopposed in election process (bill for extra terms in consideration) and then once everyone is reliant on him for protection, food, medical care and money, slavery ensues. ~dom

    Why do I find Liberals so despicable? They claim to care about lives of others, and the death of 20 children have them trying to take away our 2nd amendment rights, yet they fight for the right to kill 3700 babies everyday in abortions.

    It seems a good day to give a quote from Alveda King.

    “When we said we would no longer sit in the back of the bus, a place was being saved for us at the abortion clinic.”

    1 in 2 African-American pregnancies end in abortion, and you claim to care. It seems when owning slaves or exterminating them at our leisure became unpopular, all we had to do was give them a way to do it to themselves.

    So you will have to forgive me, when I see a philosophy that constantly contradicts itself at every turn, if I ask you to explain yourself in great detail. Either you cannot think passed the end of your nose, or you have other nefarious intentions.

  • 308. Noah  |  January 21, 2013 at 8:38 pm

    Before taking his official oath of office on Sunday, President Obama and his family attended a worship service at the Metropolitan African Methodist Episcopal Church in Washington, D.C., where pastor Ronald Braxton compared him to Moses, called the GOP “enemies” and finally led the congregation in a chant of “forward,” Obama’s 2012 campaign slogan, Breitbart.com reported.

    Work together huh?

  • 309. Just a Lurker  |  January 21, 2013 at 8:39 pm

    We lost a family member this morning; it was not expected. It has made me realize life is too short to waste. Especially if spending your time with people who have absolutely no sense of humor and take themselves much too seriously. Such negativity is a heavy load to carry, saps your energy and lessens your ability to enjoy life.

    Rutherford – Thank you for your hospitality and allowing me to voice my opinion. I wish you well. Enjoy your daughter! They grow up so quickly! This seems to happen way before you are ready to let them go.

    A bit of humor for the day:
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/21/1180075/-NRA-debate-tips

    And this:
    “A well regulated Sense of Irony, being necessary to the mental security of a free Mind, the right of the people to keep and bear Snarks, shall not be infringed.” – borrowed from the comment section.

  • 310. Rutherford  |  January 21, 2013 at 9:45 pm

    Lurker, my condolences for your loss. I hope after some time you’ll return here. Your contributions have been valuable.

  • 311. Huck  |  January 21, 2013 at 9:49 pm

    Sorry for your loss.

    Bye.

  • 312. James  |  January 21, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    Our sympathies, Lurker. I hope the person lived a good life.

    Thanks for the complement Rutherford.Maybe this will amuse you and others.

    Scott Vorhees is a morning talk show host one KFAB Omaha.He and his side kick, also the traffic reporter are conservative. The producer is more liberal, though he has an extensive gun collection.

    Someone decided it was a good idea to give away three of the producer’s guns. He offered two “assault” rifles and a Glock pistol.
    A man called and was surprised that he had won a rifle. He hadn’t even heard there was a contest.

    The second caller won a rifle, but he said he really wanted the pistol since he had twice flunked security checks for pistols. Vorhees said they couldn’t do that. Either he accepted the rifle or he hung up and gave someone else the chance.

    The caller asked if he could ask the next prize winner if he would trade weapons. Vorhees was stunned as he realized his show was entering territory beyond his control.

    The next caller was Carmalita,and Mark, the second caller asked if she would trade weapons. “Yes,” she said. She actually wanted the assault rifle so she could give it to her nine year old son.” “Mark, is that you?” Mark asked how she was, and Carmalita asked Mark if he still had his pickup..No, he had traded it in.

    Mark offered his sympathies over the closure of the lounge where Carmalita had worked. Vorheese was losing control and could only lamely ask “Do you know each other?’ “Yes, we are friends” replied Carmalita. Mark then said “you should know she gives the best lap dances in the metro area She is also a very good pole dancer.”

    “Where are you working now.” ” I have a job, but not as a lap dancer. I do probono work, though.”.
    .

  • 313. poolman  |  January 21, 2013 at 10:26 pm

    We lost a family member this morning; it was not expected. It has made me realize life is too short to waste.

    I am sorry about your loss. It does tend to put life in perspective. Our time and relationships are the most valuable of things we hold and give upon this earth journey. I pray comfort and peace over your home.

  • 314. poolman  |  January 21, 2013 at 10:29 pm

    re 312, lol. That is funny, James. I bet they’ll think twice next time they consider offering a contest.

  • 315. Huck  |  January 21, 2013 at 11:36 pm

    Word is that House Republicans are going to vote on Wed. to suspend (not raise) the debt ceiling until May. Boehner is supposed to give a presser tomorrow to talk about it. That is probably (as in “hopefully”) when the challenge will be put to the Senate to pass a budget.

    Let the games begin (again)!

  • 316. Rutherford  |  January 22, 2013 at 1:34 am

    Lurker left us with a classic. The Tom Tomorrow comic strip is a hoot. My favorite line: Hold it right there would-be mass shooter! I am a steely nerved certified public accountant–and I’m taking you out. To which the shooter says Curses! When I planned my shooting spree, I did not anticipate the likes of you!

  • 317. dead rabbit  |  January 22, 2013 at 1:55 am

    I have to admit, I despise the Obama/Hitler talk as much as the Bush/Hitler talk. Of course, Chris Mathews compared the speech today to the Gettysburg Address. Maybe just as laughable.

    Obama doesn’t have the political courage to cut spending. And because of that, the world will end up a much more dangerous place. The Economist is spot on. Either Obama stops this unsustaianble madness or he will go down in history as a laughing stock. Fucking Greychin will be bragging about the Dow being at 50,000 while a gallon of gas goes for 25 bucks. There is no end in sight. Bankrupt. They fail us at every crossroad.

  • 318. Rutherford  |  January 22, 2013 at 2:13 am

    I have to admit, I despise the Obama/Hitler talk as much as the Bush/Hitler talk.

    Thank you Rabbit. I get real frustrated when this crap goes down on the blog and I then hear crickets from the conservatives here.

    And you’re right. I pissed off my wife tonight when I said Chris Matthews had an orgasm over Obama’s speech. It was a good speech but only history will tell if it was “Lincolnesque”. Hell, when Obama said “I could no more reject Reverend Wright than my own grandmother” it sounded real profound at the time but turned out to be garbage when he threw the Rev under the bus two weeks later.

  • 319. Huck  |  January 22, 2013 at 2:21 am

    “Obama doesn’t have the political courage to cut spending.”

    Unfortunately, it’s worse than that. If it were simply a matter of courage, it would at least suggest he has the will.

    But he doesn’t.

    “….he will go down in history as a laughing stock.”

    He’ll always be our first black president. But the history books won’t be kind once the reader gets beyond that initial statement.

  • 320. Huck  |  January 22, 2013 at 2:27 am

    I guess I missed the Obama/Hitler talk here.

  • 321. Noah  |  January 22, 2013 at 2:42 am

    ” It was a good speech but only history will tell if it was “Lincolnesque”.”

    I dont need history to know that this speech was nothing. Obama has no noble cause or purpose. There are dozens of example of how self serving Obama is and unconcerned for the common man. I find nothing to suggest in his deeds that he belongs in anything close to the same category as Lincoln.

    As predicted your obsintance prevailed. If on this day the words of Alveda King could not move you or showing how your own kind is being lead to self exterminate, then you are to far gone. No amount of truth or logic can prevail against willful and self imposed ignorance.

    I will not apologize for taking serious the damage that is being done to this country. I do not have enough years left to repair the damage that we are doing now. My children will be the ones who will have that unhappy task. We all should be ashamed of ourselves that we have let it go this far and have not done more to put a stop to it. It is small comfort but I will at least be able to say I tried.

  • 322. poolman  |  January 22, 2013 at 3:07 am

    King had a dream, Obama has a drone. Another four years of fun.

    A day after MLK day, I was curious how many still buy the official narrative or some other conspiracy regarding his murder? There wasn’t much press after the assassination trial verdict in 99. Not anywhere major enough to fix history books.

    http://www.thekingcenter.org/sites/default/files/Assassination%20Trial%20-%20Family%20Press%20Conference.pdf

  • 323. Noah  |  January 22, 2013 at 6:09 am

    1 million people attended Obama’s inauguration, only 14 missed work. :)

  • 324. James  |  January 22, 2013 at 10:46 am

    It was a spur of the moment plan they are probably rethinking, Poolman.

    The hosts were still getting final authorization on the air before they gave away the weapons. Nebraska’s head of the health department is a German immigrant with a heavy accent. When she is a guest, they ask her to close with “Ve have vays of making you talk.”

    Martin Luther King and our world today reminds me of the Waylon Jennings song” Did Hank Really do it This Way?”

    I don’t like the Hitler comparisons either.

    I didn’t hear Obama’s speech. Teacher Betsy Westgard of Betsy’s Page called it a political speech which will be forgotten,

    News Busters cites more from London’s Met Office and other sources that our world’s temperature has stabilized since 1997 and may remain stalled until at least 2017. Obama’s supporters, who want to us to do something, anything before we know what works will pressure him to do more than he has so far.

  • 325. Rutherford  |  January 22, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    I guess I missed the Obama/Hitler talk here.

    You obviously don’t pay attention to Noah’s comments. I tried not to but it was no use. :-(

  • 326. Rutherford  |  January 22, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    Noah, I think I’ve seen Alveda King on TV. If I remember her correctly she’s an embarrassment to the memory of her father.

    Cute joke about most of the inauguration audience being unemployed. We could use more humor from you and less melodrama (like the comment you won’t live long enough to save our country but at least you tried. :roll: )

  • 327. Rutherford  |  January 22, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    Hey Poolman, we may not know the whole truth about King’s murder but at least we know he died by the … GUN. So did John and Bobby and Malcolm. The tool of choice when you want to be positively absolutely 100% sure your opponent is dead. ;-)

  • 328. poolman  |  January 22, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    Some more reasons flu shots are worse than the flu and why my family won’t be getting them.

    Emelie is one of around 800 children in Sweden and elsewhere in Europe who developed narcolepsy, an incurable sleep disorder, after being immunized with the Pandemrix H1N1 swine flu vaccine made by British drugmaker GlaxoSmithKline in 2009.

    http://news.yahoo.com/insight-evidence-grows-narcolepsy-gsk-swine-flu-shot-070212916–finance.html

  • 329. poolman  |  January 22, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    re 327, It took the jury an hour to reach a unanimous decision that the government, police, military, and the Mafia was responsible. I think they got the more accurate account since they had the testimony of 70 witnesses.

  • 330. Rutherford  |  January 22, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    Mmmm, I’ve never heard that narcolepsy is incurable. Or maybe I’m just confusing curable with treatable.

    I’ve not gotten my flu shot yet but it’s been more happenstance than avoidance. I do think it’s funny that a couple of months after the flu shot I got in late 2011, I then got the flu. :-(

    I’m not one of those anti-immunization nuts (who will be singlehandedly responsible for the return of smallpox, polio and a host of other stuff we thought we’d seen the last of) but I am of the uneducated opinion that there are so many flavors of influenza out there that the flu shot offers minimal protection. If you think about how many folks got it this year, you can’t tell me a sizable number of them had not been vaccinated.

  • 331. poolman  |  January 22, 2013 at 12:50 pm

  • 332. poolman  |  January 22, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    Hey Poolman, we may not know the whole truth about King’s murder but at least we know he died by the … GUN. So did John and Bobby and Malcolm.

    Actually I think it was the BULLET that did the deed. Either way, some person had to aim and pull, and in all of these murders, factions of the government were involved in planning, execution, and cover up.

    I would just like to see if anyone else disagrees with the government’s conspiracy theories. With MLK we have it on record.

  • 333. Huck  |  January 22, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    “The tool of choice when you want to be positively absolutely 100% sure your opponent is dead.”

    Ronald Reagan begs to differ.

  • 334. James  |  January 22, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    The death of someone close to Lurker and the gun debate remind me of “My Immortal” by Evanescence. The singer was describing her thoughts after her sister killed herself.

    “You used to captivate me with your resonating light,.
    Now, I’m bound by the life you left behind.
    Your face, it haunts my once pleasant dreams
    Your voice has chased away all the sanity in me
    These wounds won’t seem to heal
    This pain is just to real.
    There’s just too much that time cannot erase
    I’ve tried so hard to tell myself that you’re gone
    But though you’re still with me,
    I’ve been alone all along..”

    Suicide and sudden death are the cruelest for survivors.

  • 335. Rutherford  |  January 22, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    I’ve got to get this off my chest and sadly this is the only place I can do it without getting grief for my wife.

    Like many companies, my wife’s employer switched the pension to a 401K plan. Every pay period my wife contributes to the plan and they match it 2 for 1. Sounds pretty sweet huh? Remember, as a 401K plan it includes stocks (doesn’t HAVE to, but it does).

    Now get this:

    Company switched the rules and now their matching contribution doesn’t happen until the end of the year as a big lump sum. This screws us over in two different ways. First, if she gets laid off before year end, she gets no matching funds at all, no pro-rated, nothing, nada. Second, since the account has stocks, she completely loses the value of the stocks she would have bought with the matching funds during the year. She loses a full year of stock value.

    There is what I call an “unofficial” union there which is completely toothless. They run a web site where employees go to gripe. No influence on management at all.

    My wife tells me that the head of HR who has been there for quite a while finds a new way to screw employees over every year.

    OK, before anyone reminds me … be thankful she has a job and stop complaining about diminishing benefits. But DAMN!!!!

  • 336. thorsaurus  |  January 22, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    R, he was right to save the Union.

    I don’t know if you’ve ever visited the Lincoln Memorial, but on the North interior wall, to Lincoln’s left (a nice, cool place to hide from the Potomac sun) is engraved his second inaugural speech. I particularly enjoy the more spiritual portion which addresses the “burnt offerings” of our nation’s bloodshed, but for the sake of your post, this portion is also edifying.

    “On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago, all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it– all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, insurgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war– seeking to dissolve the Union, and divide effects, by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war; but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive; and the other would accept war rather than let it perish. And the war came…”

  • 337. Newt or no newt  |  January 22, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    Here you go James, unless you would rather hear Rush’s reactionary version, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/21/inauguration-speech_n_2491757.html

  • 338. Newt or no newt  |  January 22, 2013 at 2:58 pm

    Re. #335, this Rutherford is a perfect example of why Unions are still relevant.

  • 339. Huck  |  January 22, 2013 at 3:24 pm

    “Teacher Betsy Westgard of Betsy’s Page called it a political speech which will be forgotten,”

    I heard similar descriptions from other sources.

  • 340. Newt or no newt  |  January 22, 2013 at 3:34 pm

    Believe everything you see or read Huck? Just something for you to mull, Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address was poorly received at the time.

  • 341. Huck  |  January 22, 2013 at 3:49 pm

    “Believe everything you see or read Huck?”

    No. I was simply pointing out to James that the source he cited wasn’t the only person who felt that way.

    Frankly, After 4 years, I am not overly interested in what Barack Obama has to say anymore, other than the recognition that his words do influence the actions and perceptions of others, both positively and negatively.

    I am much more concerned about his actions and inactions.

  • 342. Newt or no newt  |  January 22, 2013 at 3:58 pm

    “I am much more concerned about his actions and inactions.” As we all should, but some people go beyond that to predict what he is going to do based upon what he hasn’t done. Why is it they never do that with anyone else?

  • 343. poolman  |  January 22, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    Actions and words do not line up so far. The man is a liar. He has lied. Like most all our leaders we have a record of his transgressions against us, yet we remain apathetic and hope for the best. There is no integrity in our government. How many examples do we need? What is the definition of insanity?

  • 344. Huck  |  January 22, 2013 at 4:23 pm

    “…some people go beyond that to predict what he is going to do based upon what he hasn’t done. Why is it they never do that with anyone else?”

    You are talking about comparing action to inaction. I am talking about comparing words to action and inaction. Those are 2 different things.

    With that said, we might not be able to predict future action based on prior inaction, but we are not out of line to try and predict future action or inaction based on prior action and inaction, respectively. What someone has done or has not done in the past naturally tells us what someone can or is willing to do or not do in the future. Of course, it does not assure either outcome.

    As for the “anyone else” question, did you have someone specific in mind? Because I can’t think of anyone that it really applies to, offhand.

  • 345. poolman  |  January 22, 2013 at 4:34 pm

    Another shooting on a campus in Texas in the news. They should report ALL shootings. That would be a change and keep them busy.

  • 346. poolman  |  January 22, 2013 at 4:59 pm

    re 335, It is very difficult to find any corporation in America today that is not doing the same things and more to maximize profits by minimizing or eliminating some expenses. Labor is expensive in America, especially with our government’s stipulations. Reduced or delayed benefits, reduced pay or hours with added responsibility is the new norm. The squeeze is on. How’s that American Dream working out for you?

    The gap is w i d e n i n g

  • 347. Noah  |  January 22, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    Cute joke about most of the inauguration audience being unemployed. We could use more humor from you and less melodrama (like the comment you won’t live long enough to save our country but at least you tried. :roll: )

    How many times did Oblama talk about jobs in his..what did you call it, Lincoln level, speech? Zero you say? Yes, no need to worry, Obama obviously knows what we all most need right now right?

  • 348. Huck  |  January 22, 2013 at 5:33 pm

    A progressive society doesn’t need jobs, Noah. The government is there to take care of everyone and the rich people are there to finance it all.

  • 349. James  |  January 22, 2013 at 8:08 pm

    “But Damn.” That’s terrible. In an ideal world, unions and businesses will counter balance each other. Does the company have an onbundsman? Could the workers make some noise with the news media or even lawsuits?

    Thanks, newt. I didn’t listen to Rush either. Yours is the first transcript of the speech I have seen. Its not the Gettysburg address but no worse than what I remember of the Bush speeches. I’d be happy if I thought Obama believed what he said.

    Lincoln also thought his speech had failed. One reason it didn’t garner more favor was the conciliary mood was not what many people wanted to hear.

  • 350. James  |  January 22, 2013 at 8:35 pm

    Perdicting the future based on past actions and inactions is human nature, Newt. We heard many predictions of Romney’s performance as president. Supporters of both guilded the lilly.

    When McCain and Palin ran, people carried it a step further and speculated on Sarah’s failure or success as president if McCain died.

    Yes, Poolman, they should report ALL shootings, Chcago would require its own news special. They should also report the shootings done in self defense which prevented crimes.

  • 351. Noah  |  January 22, 2013 at 9:11 pm

    “If you believe that the AR is too dangerous to own then there is no rational limit to what firearms you will find too dangerous next. Politicians have attacked firearms as too dangerous because they are too small and easy to conceal, too cheap and easy for poor people to buy, too accurate and usable and sniper weapons, too powerful and usable against vehicles. The list of “too dangerous” can easily be expanded to cover most any firearm and making every firearm “too dangerous” is exactly the real agenda.”

  • 352. Newt or no newt  |  January 22, 2013 at 9:21 pm

    “What is the definition of insanity?” You might be able to figure out what it looks like, do you have a mirror? :-)
    James, quit, just quit, over thinking things. If someone has never done something or even, so much as, suggested something, it is pretty certain they won’t do ‘that’ something in the future. The problem then only exists in someone’s imagination.
    Huck, do your professors allow you to use crap resources for your papers? Have you never been taught deductive reasoning? Why short change yourself then when form opinions outside of class.

  • 353. Huck  |  January 22, 2013 at 9:31 pm

    “Huck, do your professors allow you to use crap resources for your papers? Have you never been taught deductive reasoning? Why short change yourself then when form opinions outside of class.”

    What the hell are you talking about?

    I have no intention of engaging you in personal back and forth bullshit. You want that, go seek out Tex.

  • 354. Huck  |  January 22, 2013 at 9:44 pm

    “If someone has never done something or even, so much as, suggested something, it is pretty certain they won’t do ‘that’ something in the future.”

    That isn’t what he said. Stop moving the goalpost.

  • 355. Rutherford  |  January 22, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    How many times did Oblama talk about jobs in his..what did you call it, Lincoln level, speech? Zero you say? Yes, no need to worry, Obama obviously knows what we all most need right now right?

    I did not say it was Lincolnesque. I quoted others and said the jury is out until history judges him. Newt is correct that the Gettysburg Address was universally panned at the time.

    Now don’t get me wrong, I honestly didn’t find any Kennedy-Lincoln type quotes in Barack’s 2nd inaugural but who knows what folks may say in 50 years?

    As for your other point…you are right on the money. No mention of jobs was a glaring omission.

  • 356. poolman  |  January 22, 2013 at 10:28 pm

    re 352, ha-ha. Newt, I would especially like to know your opinion on the MLK assassination. Do you ascribe to the government’s narrative/conspiracy theory, or the results of the 99 trial, or some other conspiracy?

  • 357. Huck  |  January 22, 2013 at 10:49 pm

    Obama can’t talk about jobs because he doesn’t have a plan. He hasn’t had one for years now. His only plan was his failed stimulus. And the only time he ever talks about another plan is when he talks about more stimulus. It’s all he knows.

  • 358. Noah  |  January 22, 2013 at 10:56 pm

    Obama has that inner city mentality that government has unlimited resources. He is here to play the part of the black Robin Hood and give all dat gubment money back to the poor.

  • 359. dead rabbit  |  January 22, 2013 at 11:38 pm

    I don’t ever think I’ve read a Kool Aid drinker quite like Newt. While Hucking refuses to take part in the bizarre argument Newt is offering, I can’t help but crack up over Newt’s angle.

    She is miffed that Hucking has not, in fact, awknowledged that Obama’s speech is as epic as Lincoln’s Gettysburg Adress! Even worse, he mentioned that he heard a few people say the exact opposite. Heresey!

    I’ve busted Hucking’s professional balls before. But, I did it over controversy found IN his profession (post modernism).

    Can you imagine busting someone’s professional balls due to a lack of enthusiasm for a political speech? Can you imagine being that “on board” that anyone who doesn’t point out the historic awesomeness of a fricking Obama speech is lacking reasoning skills so much that he is a shitty employee?

    Lets do some Hitler talk after all. Obama is no Hitler and Newt is no Hess. She is, however, the adoring, weeping Nazi in the crowd, orgasmic over the Nuremberg spectical.

  • 360. Huck  |  January 22, 2013 at 11:45 pm

    Race doesn’t have anything to do with it. He’s got plenty of cronies that make up every color of the rainbow who think the exact same way.

  • 361. Huck  |  January 22, 2013 at 11:52 pm

    “She is miffed that Hucking has not, in fact, awknowledged that Obama’s speech is as epic as Lincoln’s Gettysburg Adress!”

    Thank god someone came along to decipher her jumble of bullshit for me. I seriously didn’t have a clue WTF she was talking about.

    To be quite honest, I didn’t listen to or read the transcripts of Obama’s speech. It could have been the best speech ever delivered in the nation’s history. Like I said, I don’t care what he had to say. After 4 years, I’ve heard enough.

    But then, I can see where his supporters might get tingles over him speaking. He sure hasn’t given them anything to get excited about in the action category for a while.

  • 362. dead rabbit  |  January 23, 2013 at 12:06 am

    I caught some of the speech. I’m pretty sure hinting that more tax dollars be given to subsidized green energy companies and restricting clip size in rifles doesn’t compare to the heavy subject matter of fellow human beings hitherto enslaved. I don’t care what your take on the liberal platform is. Almost sociopathic to think your modern political cause compares the emancipation of slavery.

    Political weirdos crack me up. Newt, Chris Mathews…..you guys need to back off from it all and go fishing or something.

  • 363. Huck  |  January 23, 2013 at 12:13 am

    “Ive busted Hucking’s professional balls before. But, I did it over controversy found IN his profession (post modernism).”

    I have to admit I didn’t really know what post modernism was when I read this. Philosophy isn’t really my strong suit. So I looked it up on the Wiki and damned if you didn’t hit the nail on the head, DR. (But I guess you probably knew that)

    What really stood out was this portion: “…it encourages the exploration and comparison of individuals’ subjective responses to a given poem, painting, or other cultural product. It examines the role that language, power, and motivation play in the formation of ideas and beliefs.”

    That is pretty much the nuts and bolts of the thesis research I have been doing for the last 2 years.

    Thanks for the bit of enlightenment.

  • 364. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 12:52 am

    “Race doesn’t have anything to do with it.”

    It has everything to do with it. Let me preface any statement I make about race to say that I consider racism all about culture, not skin color.

    I’ve worked in inner cities now going on 10 years. I assure you there is a culture there, a mentality, a way of thinking, that I have little appreciation for. Its a “take what I can get” way of thinking. What it does to someone else matters little. Tomorrows consequences do not matter as long as we got what was due us today.

    Obama will be celebrated by these people because what he got for them today. At no point will they rally against him because of what it will do to our tomorrow. Obama knows and understands this mentality and he is using it at the expense of our country’s financial well being. He is their Robin hood, and they will forever celebrate him for robbing the rest of us blind.

  • 365. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:00 am

    Obama can’t talk about jobs because he doesn’t have a plan.

    Either you believe government can “create jobs” or you don’t. If you don’t then you can’t fault Obama for not having a plan.

  • 366. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:01 am

    I would also like to add that the beauty of Obama’s plan is he gets to irresponsibility give this to those same people, and then some Republican will have to come in and take it all the way to save us from collapse and they in turn will labeled the evil ones for taking it from them.

  • 367. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:02 am

    He is here to play the part of the black Robin Hood

    Why couldn’t you just say “Robin Hood”? Damn, you’re offensive as all get out.

  • 368. Huck  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:04 am

    “Either you believe government can “create jobs” or you don’t.”

    Or you believe that government can help facilitate the creation of jobs through policies that promote economic growth.

    And on that, Obama has no plan.

  • 369. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:06 am

    I guess we have two different ideas of what the office of the President is capable of Rutherford. I do not subscribe to the notion that the President is powerless to have any effect on jobs and growth in this country.

  • 370. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:09 am

    While I think Newt let her snark get away from her, one point I got out of her argument is that Obama has NEVER come for your guns. In fact, his rating by gun control advocates has been an “F”. Yet everyone is positive that in the 2nd term, he’ll come for your guns. This is what she means by predicting what he will do based on what he has NOT done. It’s a ludicrous approach … unless you’re a paranoid schizophrenic.

    Newt if I’ve misinterpreted you, please correct me.

    I’m finding the Obama speech is a bit like the first album in Green Day’s latest trilogy. On first listen, meh. But it starts to grow on you as certain parts are repeated. One major gating factor is whether or not you trust the sincerity of the speaker. Many of you don’t. Again, drawing a salivating analogy, but I dare say a whole lot of Southerners did not believe “with malice toward none” when they heard that in 1865.

  • 371. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:20 am

    Obama will be celebrated by these people because what he got for them today.

    How preposterous. Aren’t you one of the throng telling me Obama has done nothing for blacks? Now suddenly he’s giving them goodies. What goodies did he give them Noah? I heard a wild stat a day or so ago … the unemployment rate among white people is between 5 and 6%. What’s got the overall rate so high are unemployed minorities. So what goodies did they get Noah?

    You fill your days with the worst of the worst and I’m sure it quite satisfies you. What I wouldn’t give to stick your ass down in an upper middle class Atlanta integrated neighborhood where blacks are doing quite well. It’s called the “buppie” capital of the country. Or maybe nail your ass down in any of our diverse places of higher education, including Harvard and watch you talk smack about black culture.

    You think that because all you see are raggedy-ass black people that you KNOW black people. You don’t know sh*t.

  • 372. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:22 am

    FDR seemed to have a pretty good model for job creation. But conservatives don’t want sufficient and properly managed government stimulus to get people working again.

    I suspect Obama won’t be bold on this because he just doesn’t want to fight the up hill battle.

  • 373. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:25 am

    Hey you ever hear of this gubment program that has over 50% of the nation on the take? Obama phones, ever hear of those? I wouldnt expect a wanna-be to have any real understanding of the inner city culture. Nice dodge on the rest of it, like always.

  • 374. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:27 am

    James, my wife’s company has been sued in the past (I think with some success) in employee class actions. In fact, I think one may have revolved around pensions. Their 401K shenanigans I suspect are despicable but not illegal. Most of these programs are offered with the caveat “we reserve the right to change the details of this program at any time.”

    Newt, I agree that unions are not irrelevant. My problem is when unions cross the line from getting what is fair to actually helping their members NOT do their jobs, which is what I suspect teachers unions do quite often.

  • 375. Huck  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:28 am

    “one point I got out of her argument is that Obama has NEVER come for your guns. In fact, his rating by gun control advocates has been an “F”. Yet everyone is positive that in the 2nd term, he’ll come for your guns.”

    That might have been her point, but it wasn’t mine or James’s. We are talking about predicting what someone will do based on what they have done, and what they won’t do based on things they haven’t done.

    Making predictions of what someone will do based on what they haven’t done is not what we are talking about. I thought we both made that clear, and if we didn’t, I hope I have now.

    “One major gating factor is whether or not you trust the sincerity of the speaker. Many of you don’t.”

    Oh, I believe he is absolutely sincere in what he SAYS he WANTS to do.

    But I also understand that most of what he says he wants to do isn’t only up to him. Thanks to the separation of powers, he is only 1 part of the process. That I understand that process and continually recognize its existence is why I don’t listen to what he says. I didn’t make it a point to listen to Bush, either, for the same reason.

  • 376. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:33 am

    You know what Noah? I actually DON’T know what “Obama phones” are. I’ve heard the phrase primarily from the likes of you and I’ve assumed it’s some demeaning minority reference so I haven’t even looked it up. I glide right past it.

    You are an expert at dodging too. Get out of the “inner city” for a bit and sample black fathers who take their kids to gymnastics and resemble Steve Urkel more than Flavor Flav. But you wouldn’t want to do that. Pissing on impoverished blacks gives you your kicks … helps your self worth.

  • 377. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:42 am

    You look for racism, so you always find it..when it suits your purpose..and Obama phone is a free government phone..nothing more kiddo. I have dodged nothing you have asked me Rutherford, so take your lies and shove them up your ass. You on the other hand are renounced for cherry picking what you will comment on. This thread alone has multiple examples.

    I dont make my comments to be rude, I do it to be honest. It might not be popular..but it is accurate. But you always were more about doing and saying what feels good rather than the truth.

  • 378. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:44 am

    renouned*

  • 379. Huck  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:48 am

    “FDR seemed to have a pretty good model for job creation.”

    Yeah, it was called WWII, wherein we put a bunch of people to work building stuff to kill other people that we then used to destroy what would have been some of our production competitors and also put tons of people to work rebuilding a ruined continent afterward.

  • 380. Huck  |  January 23, 2013 at 2:07 am

    I can’t seem to dig up the numbers anymore, but as I recall, the check for the stimulus was more than what Obama had previously said he would need.

    And since Democrats controlled the House, Senate, and Presidency, I would like to have my memory refreshed as to how conservatives did anything to stop them from writing it as big as they wanted.

  • 381. Huck  |  January 23, 2013 at 2:16 am

    “FDR seemed to have a pretty good model for job creation.”

    And before you call me on it, the New Deal occurred to me after I posted that comment.

    I think we can both agree that Obama’s policies did not mirror FDR’s efforts, so I really don’t see the point of your comparison.

  • 382. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 3:11 am

    Rutherford, you are a prime example of the kind of people I talk about. You support ideals and policies from this President that any thinking person with even the most basic understanding of economics understands is massively detrimental to their kids future. But you are getting yours now, so you don’t do anything, say anything, about it.

    Politics aside, right is right, wrong is wrong. It is wrong, as your Messiah said back in 08 to continue to accrue debt at this level and at this rate. Yet despite that, he has done far worse than Bush ever did. There is nothing right about this stimulus. There is nothing right about this continued printing of money and devaluing of the dollar that hurts the middle class and the poor most. Yet despite that, you support him almost unconditionally.

    Living in a box, I can understand how you think none of this is real, or that the consequences will never actually come. We have hit a tipping point. Economically, mathematically, when a society gets to the level of dependance we have reached, there are inevitable consequences. I don’t want to experience them and I certainly do not want my children to experience them.

    Do you want $6 a gallon milk? Do you want to see $3000 an ounce gold and what that brings? We are heading to an age where no one middle class and lower can afford to not get help from the government. Yet by default you do because of the things you support. The question I have is why?

  • 383. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 3:52 am

    A fellow conservative blogger…

    “Someday being white will not be held against a person. I was adopted from Korea, grew up in Columbus Ga and I saw real racism at its worst…never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I’d see the day where being white made you a second class citizen. Ron”

  • 384. poolman  |  January 23, 2013 at 4:01 am

    In a stunning revelation from the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund (PCJF), it appears that COINTELPRO is alive and well. Through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request, PCJF was able to obtain documents showing how the FBI was treating the Occupy Wall Street (OWS) movement, from its inception, as a potential criminal and domestic terrorist threat. This despite the FBI’s own acknowledgement that the OWS organizers themselves planned on engaging in peaceful and popular protest and did not “condone the use of violence.”

    The documents, while heavily redacted, give a clear picture of how the FBI was using its offices and agents across the country as early as August 2011 to engage in a massive surveillance scheme against OWS. This was almost a month before any actual protests took place or encampments were set up (the most famous being the one in New York City’s Zuccotti Park).

    The FBI’s documents show a government agency at its most paranoid. It considered all planned protests, and the individuals involved, as potential threats. Most disturbing of all, there is talk (p. 61) of the government being ready to “engage in sniper attacks against protesters in Houston, Texas, if deemed necessary” and perhaps needing to formulate a plan “to kill the leadership [of the protest groups] via suppressed sniper rifles.”

    Furthermore, the documents reveal a close and intricate partnership between the federal government on one side and banks and private businesses on the other.

    Life in the cross hairs. Yikes! The dreaded FOIA strikes again. Nothing to see here folks. Move along. Keep shopping. Go watch some football. rrrrrah!

    .

  • 385. poolman  |  January 23, 2013 at 4:02 am

    link:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/01/21/the-return-of-cointelpro/

  • 386. poolman  |  January 23, 2013 at 4:20 am

    More news from the advancing war on terror front lines…

    Canada is investigating an allegation by the Algerian Prime Minister that one of its citizens co-ordinated the terror raid at the Saharan gas plant in which dozens of hostages were killed.

    Westerners, including a man with blond hair and blue eyes, are believed to have been among the Islamist militants who launched last week’s attack on the Tigantourine complex near Algeria’s border with Libya.

    A French jihadist, previously unknown to authorities, and two Canadians are suspected to have been involved in the hostage-taking, and reports also claim that a man with a Western accent was among the extremists who lured terrified gas workers from their rooms during the hostage crisis.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/terror-in-north-africa-are-westerners-pulling-the-strings-8460832.html

  • 387. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 5:15 am

    384
    Seems like a reasoned response to me…

  • 388. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 6:49 am

    Pressed After Obama Inaugural Address, White House Maintains That Marriage is Not a Federal Issue

    http://www.towleroad.com/2013/01/pressed-after-obama-inaugural-address-white-house-maintains-that-marriage-is-not-a-federal-issue.html#ixzz2InJqQJ3r

    Another group..now that they have served their purpose, have been tossed aside.

  • 389. James  |  January 23, 2013 at 10:24 am

    Newt, your question and comment were “but some people go beyond predicting what he is going to do based on what he hasn’t done.” Why does that only apply to Obama?

    I wasn’t over thinking anything. I was replying to a vague and generalized comment which could apply to people from the President to your neighbor..

    Since you were thinking of guns, I did some brief research. Brietbart TV reported that gun rights author John Lott met Obama for the first time when he was a lecturer at the University of Chicago. He told Lott “I don’t think people should be able to own guns.” Obama supporters denied that Obama said it, but his record supports Lott’s contention that it happened or could have happened.

    Jodi Kantor of the New York Times, wrote others noted that unlike most other academics, Obama was unwilling to discuss subjects with people who held opposing views. He would turn his back and walk away.

    Obama answered a 1998 questionnnaire for the Illinois state legislature Obama wanted to “ban the sale or transfer of all sorts of semi-automatic weapons.”

    He also opposes concealed carry and “always has.”

    Obama Obama sees two “legitimate” purposes for guns; Hunting and target shooting. “And this goes a long way in explaining Obama’s past support of laws banning the use of guns for self-defense in Illinois, even in one’s own home.”

    Obama down played his views when he ran for national office, though I remember his saying he thought the Supreme Court should rule against gun ownership in Washington DC.

    According to Freedom Outpost, Obama served on the board of directors of the Joyce Foundation, the nation’s largest private funder of research to ban gun ownership in the US.

    Huck was right to observe that he had read of other people who agreed with Betsy’s Page.

    Rutherford wrote you were probably being snarky. Snark is like a gun. One must use it wisely.

  • 390. James  |  January 23, 2013 at 10:46 am

    The New Deal gave the nation hope and did create new jobs. Its make work laborers virtually built our national park infrastructure while historians and photographers documented life during Depression. However, as Huck wrote, WW11 gave us our ultimate economic recovery.

    As I wrote before, the New Deal helped create Sarah Palin and a headache for Rutherford who can’t stand her.

    I have mentioned Lativa and Estonia before. Their still poor economies are growing rapidly after suffering through as much as over 20% unemployment, riots and civil discord. The president of Estonia who I once mentioned was born in New Jersey said we should look at their example. Maybe we should.

    374, I agree about unions, Rutherford. Other government unions who’s negotiating power FDR opposed have overburdened the economies of many cities and states with over generous pension and health insurance plans. Omaha is just one city trying to dig itself from heavy debt.

    The company is probably within its legal rights as you wrote, but unless they are making changes to keep themselves solvent, I wish the employees could shame its leaders into changing their plans.

    Maybe someone has already discussed Obama phones. Poor people can apply for and get cell phones and limited service. Obama did not start the program. I believe Bush’s administration created a plan to give telephone service to people too poor to pay for it. It has evolved into Obama phones.

  • 391. James  |  January 23, 2013 at 10:50 am

    A commentator on an Omaha radio station said we are borrowing so much money from China that within a few years, the interest on our debt will be enough to fund China’s expanding its military.

    He said we can blame Bush, Obama, or LBJ, but the real fault lies with the Baby Boomers as rabbit has written. Baby Boomers so like the benefits the government gives they would rather take the money than worry about future generations. Our politicians wouldn’t force hard choices on us if they wanted to because they want to keep their jobs.

  • 392. Newt or no newt  |  January 23, 2013 at 11:44 am

    You read me right Rutherford. Continuing with my campaign to encourage those of you on this blog to pay attention to ‘primary sources,’ how many of you are listening to Secretary of State Clinton’s testimony this morning? Or plan to read her testimony later? But if you don’t pay attention to what the President of the United States, leader of the free world, has to say, unlike most educated people the world over, how do you even have an opinion worthy of expressing?
    James, your questions to me are based on hearsay, so I am going to ignore them. There is entirely too much hearsay presented as fact in the media, particularly certain agenda based media sources.

  • 393. poolman  |  January 23, 2013 at 11:51 am

    Seems like a reasoned response to me…

    I’m not surprised, given your unreasonable nature coupled with your inability to identify real threats.

  • 394. poolman  |  January 23, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    But if you don’t pay attention to what the President of the United States, leader of the free world, has to say, unlike most educated people the world over, how do you even have an opinion worthy of expressing?

    The man does give excellent speeches. Too bad HE DOESN’T FOLLOW THROUGH. Like Huck said previously, actions and inactions are what count. When the dust clears THAT is really all that matters. At the end of the day, what has he done to uphold the Constitution? Elegantly articulated presentations broadcast throughout the globe do nothing to heal our festering wounds. Neither does swearing on multiple Bibles, no matter who they once belonged to. The man can lie with a smile on his face. What do those multiple Bibles say about that? When you don’t respect the truth to begin with, what’s the point? Theatrics.

  • 395. Newt or no newt  |  January 23, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    For those of you without cable, listen to the hearing here, http://www.c-span.org/Events/Sec-of-State-Clinton-Testifies-on-US-Consulate-Attack-in-Benghazi/10737437475-1/

  • 396. poolman  |  January 23, 2013 at 12:15 pm

  • 397. poolman  |  January 23, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    Sorry Newt. Ten minutes of Hillary’s doublespeak is all I can stand.

  • 398. James  |  January 23, 2013 at 12:25 pm

    Newt, I wish I had thought of that line when I was in a grad school class discussion and treading on shaky ground. Your rationalization is a thing of beauty.

    I plan to read the transcript of Hillary’s testimony and by your logic, I will discount what I disagree with as “hearsay.”

    Much of this “hearsay” is a matter of record. If you take the time to find it. Chesapeake Challenge on Politco has a recording of a Feb 11, 2008 YouTube interview with Obama as he supported the Washington DC hand gun ban .Either the speaker was Obama or a remarkably well crafted sock puppet.

    Then, Google “1996 Obama Supported Single-Payer Healthcare, Government funded ..”. also on YouTube. it shows a copy of Obama’s questionaire for all to read. It was sent to an unknown location after 2008, but as I found the record still exists.

    You could also find Obama’s voting record. He voted “present” on several of the gun and abortion bills as he often did, probably because like Clinton during the sixties, he was looking ahead to future political endeavors.

    Its out there.In 2004, I found photostatic copies of the medical exam which grounded Bush the younger. Tracks of others remain if you want to find them.

    Thanks again for brightening my morning..

  • 399. James  |  January 23, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    thanks for the link. I am listening to the testimony as I work.

  • 400. James  |  January 23, 2013 at 12:55 pm

    Hillary responded to Sen Johnson’s accusing her of misleading Americans by blaming non- existent protests with “What difference does it make?’ If Hillary doesn’t know, she should resign.

    A government security board found that security in the diplomatic corps was lax at the end of the Clinton administration and apparently wasn’t fixed. Therefore security was a long term problem.

    Hillary may not have been involved with creating the talking points, but she repeated them.

    Hillary says she takes responsibility but I don’t believe she accepts the consequences.

  • 401. Newt or no newt  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    Are you going to watch the rest of her testimony this afternoon James? I saw “Zero Dark Thirty” yesterday, I actually liked the movie better than I thought I would. I would estimate that it was for the most part factual, but since I’ve people close to me who have been employed in the same capacity as the main character, I knew when Hollywood overtook reality. But for the purposes of a movie, the script had to place the heroine into as many scenes as possible, so I was okay with that. Anyway, good movie, my husband actually stayed awake without the use of my elbow, that might be a first.

  • 402. James  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:29 pm

    Hillary has also spoken of the new reality. We discussed the new realty on this forum as it related to Egypt and Libya.. She should have lurked here. Barbara Boxer’s cheap shot about Congress’ cutting the Security budget does not explain the killings as she implied.

    Hillary replied that prioritization was required. The Bengazi location apparently had a low priority.

    I agree with her comments about the jihadists in the region.

  • 403. Newt or no newt  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    Now you are taking it out of context James, of course she meant right after it happened, before it was even investigated, it was crazy to expect the government to have all of the answers. If we are to get it right in the future, an investigation is essential and anything said before a full investigation is misleading, like when we went into Iraq on false information.

  • 404. James  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    I am going to try to watch what I can, It is interesting. Newt.I also liked some of the phone comments from viewers.

    I appreciate your comments about “zero Dark Thirty.” We are going to Omaha on Friday to help our daughter celebrate a day off. She suggested a movie if we have time. Thanks to you, I will suggest “Zero Dark Thirty. Of course, I may be outvoted.

  • 405. thorsaurus  |  January 23, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    “When you don’t respect the truth to begin with, what’s the point?” -P

    Truth is an insect drone basking in the Arizona sun. – Thor Tsu ;)

  • 406. thorsaurus  |  January 23, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    “If Hillary doesn’t know, she should resign.” J

    She IS resigning. :)

    I thought McCain once again came off as a whiner. I thought Rand Paul advocating a LARGER military presence in Libya was revealing. Dad must be so proud.

  • 407. Huck  |  January 23, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    “Continuing with my campaign to encourage those of you on this blog to pay attention to ‘primary sources,’”

    You mean like the Federalist Papers? Why didn’t you lecture Rutherford on his “my friend who read them told me” business?

    You’ll earn a lot more credibility if you are consistent.

    “But if you don’t pay attention to what the President of the United States, leader of the free world, has to say, unlike most educated people the world over, how do you even have an opinion worthy of expressing?”

    Because what he says doesn’t matter. It’s what he does that counts. Did you not understand that the first 3 times we said it? And you can feel free to cite some “primary sources” to prove what “most educated people” do. Or else I will just assume you are parroting hearsay and disregard it.

    I am really starting to get the whole “sensico” theory….

  • 408. Huck  |  January 23, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    I find it humorous that we are getting lectured on primary sources and hearsay by a supporter of the man who told us Benghazi was all about a video.

  • 409. poolman  |  January 23, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    James, you might be interested in the revelations from the ongoing investigations around pedophile rings Jimmy Savile was associated with. I really hope they can keep up the pressure and the focus, but this is so a part of elite society it is doubtful anything will change.

    http://www.disinfo.com/2013/01/satanic-paedophile-rings-linked-to-government-jimll-666-it-for-you/

  • 410. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 2:54 pm

    but as I recall, the check for the stimulus was more than what Obama had previously said he would need.

    Be that as it may, I think most liberals after the fact said the stim was insufficient. Also some of the money was mismanaged.

    With regard to FDR I was not referring to WWII but to the WPA.

  • 411. Newt or no newt  |  January 23, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    Huck, this one is for you http://juanitajean.com/2013/01/23/the-worlds-indispensable-nation/
    Still looking for a link to The Bros Grimm for a certain someone.

  • 412. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    I think we can both agree that Obama’s policies did not mirror FDR’s efforts, so I really don’t see the point of your comparison.

    To the extent that both administrations attempted to subsidize job programs, they were similar. Obama’s effort needed to be bigger, more formal and better managed.

  • 413. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    But you are getting yours now, so you don’t do anything, say anything, about it.

    Have you lost your mind? I’m living in one third the space I used to live in because of this economy. I have never collected unemployment or disability checks. I spent practically my entire retirement savings trying to keep my home and ended up having to sell it anyway. I am about to start a new job for which I am grossly overqualified because my family desperately needs the money.

    Yeah Noah, I’m getting mine alright … right up the ass is where I’m getting mine.

  • 414. Newt or no newt  |  January 23, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    LOL http://www.democraticunderground.com/101793905

  • 415. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 3:06 pm

    “Someday being white will not be held against a person. I was adopted from Korea, grew up in Columbus Ga and I saw real racism at its worst…never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I’d see the day where being white made you a second class citizen. Ron”

    My violin is playing for you Noah. Oh the horror of being white in America!

  • 416. Newt or no newt  |  January 23, 2013 at 3:06 pm

    All joking aside, here is “where the rubber meets the road,” http://www.leahy.senate.gov/press/comment-leahy-embassy-security-amendment

  • 417. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    Obama did not start the program. I believe Bush’s administration created a plan to give telephone service to people too poor to pay for it. It has evolved into Obama phones.

    Classic. Thanks James for the added and key detail. Funny how when white “compassionate conservatives” help black folk, Noah doesn’t say squat.Let a brotha do it and suddenly it’s a scandal. :roll:

  • 418. Huck  |  January 23, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    “Be that as it may, I think most liberals after the fact said the stim was insufficient. Also some of the money was mismanaged.”

    And whose fault was that?

    Newt, why is that for me? I am the one who said she has done a pretty good job as Sec. of State, even defending her to Rutherford. I am the one who said Susan Rice was only doing what a diplomat does when she was lying to America as a representative of her boss(es) positions. I am the one who said we couldn’t have had sufficient security in Benghazi because it would have taken a force the size of what would have been labelled as an occupier. I am the one who said the main fault was that Stevens was there in the first place and should have had a digital presence, instead.

    So please explain why this secondary source is for me.

  • 419. poolman  |  January 23, 2013 at 4:00 pm

    Truth is an insect drone basking in the Arizona sun. – Thor Tsu

    Touché O Thrust. Yes, they are using solar power for drones. :wink:

  • 420. poolman  |  January 23, 2013 at 4:18 pm

    re 416, Looks like we are being played – again. WTH are ‘unused previously appropriated funds’ anyway – a true resource or more debt for Americans?

    It might be wise to follow through on the investigation of the Algeria terror event before using it to justify new security actions. If the link I posted in 386 is considered, this is just another dog and pony show.

  • 421. Newt or no newt  |  January 23, 2013 at 4:36 pm

    Huck, believe it or not, it is because I like you and I happen to believe you are reachable. By reachable, I don’t mean you are going to go all liberal or anything, but you are bright and you are a part of this country’s future, so if I can egg you on and make you look beyond what you might be otherwise inclined to see, I will. Don’t take it personally, we have never met, most likely never will, but of all of us, you may someday be in a position of leadership, so that’s it.

  • 422. Huck  |  January 23, 2013 at 4:48 pm

    When you brought my education practices and work ethic into it, I do take it personally.

    Just so you know a bit of my personal side, while I am a university student, I am not of traditional student age. So, while I do plan on being around for the future of this country, it won’t be as long as you might have thought…lol.

    I don’t plan on being a leader. I plan on teaching what will become leaders.

  • 423. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 5:33 pm

    “Also some of the money was mismanaged.”

    #1 telling you mention this in passing as it is your side doing it
    #2 who have you held accountable for this? Where is your outrage?

    Nice dodge on the rest, as always.

  • 424. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    http://news.yahoo.com/house-passes-no-budget-no-pay-191301982–abc-news-politics.html

    This is bullshit. I will be writing a lot of heated letters this week. This should be lost money, not money held that they will get regardless if they do their job. Anyone think these rich fat cats will lose a seconds sleep over not getting paid on time? Pure bullshit.

  • 425. Huck  |  January 23, 2013 at 5:46 pm

    “This should be lost money, not money held that they will get regardless if they do their job.”

    While I am inclined to agree, in principle, I think there is an issue regarding the legal aspects of changing the amount of money members of congress are paid. The law was written to address pay increases, but I was reading an analysis that said it would also apply to pay decreases.

    It’s all symbolic, I agree. But perhaps the symbolism will help raise public awareness of the overall issue, which is the budget matter. You’d be surprised how many people don’t have the slightest clue what is (and isn’t) going on with our government doing what it is supposed to do (or maybe you wouldn’t be surprised, I don’t know).

  • 426. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    Unfortunately I am not surprised. I was shocked as I became more politically active over the past 10 years how many people do not care. Of those I would say half just don’t care at all and have no interest in politics. The other half feel their is nothing they can do so why bother.

    I would like to see a Constitutional amendment where elected offices have their job duties listed and a mandatory recall election held if they habitually are unable to perform the duties of their position.

  • 427. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 5:53 pm

    Tiger Woods Says High State Taxes Drove Him from California to Florida.

    …things that make you go hmm, eh R? Can you grasp the big picture message this article?

    http://lajolla.patch.com/articles/tiger-woods-says-high-state-taxes-drove-him-from-california-to-florida?national=patch&ncid=edlinkuspatc00000006&icid=maing-grid7|maing7|dl11|sec1_lnk1%26pLid%3D260620

  • 428. Just a Lurker  |  January 23, 2013 at 5:59 pm

    Rutherford – Okay…I suck at breaking habits, last one… promise. I’m working on a new habit…finding something to laugh at and sharing it. I think you will enjoy it; others will defend their God given right to fail to see any humor or irony in Jim Wright’s blog entry.
    http://www.stonekettle.com/2013/01/bang-bang-crazy-part-five.html

    And this one is for Poolman:
    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/chart-obama-conspiracy-theories
    Looking forward to second term craziness!

  • 429. James  |  January 23, 2013 at 6:13 pm

    406 yes, thor she is resigning, but I’d like to see her submit her papers today. Another report described the mismanagement which was Hillary’s official responsibility as head of the State Department. She may not have known what was happening, but it was her job to know.

    Her schedualed resignation has little connection with Bengazi. It is tied to the beginning of a new administration. I’d like Hillary to suffer a connection.

    Rand Paul’s suggesting even more troops in Libya did make me wonder what old dad was thinking.

    I couldn’t hear Hillary’s second testimony because my wife needed the computer for a grant application.

    You’re welcome, Rutherford. Thanks for the link Poolman I liked Jimmy Savile. His scandal is hard to take.

  • 430. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 6:23 pm

    I thought Rand Paul advocating a LARGER military presence in Libya was revealing.

    I saw the snippet where Rand said if he had been POTUS he would have fired Hillary. I soooo wish Hillary had said “Rand, you were not President and you never will be.”

  • 431. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 6:25 pm

    I saw the snippet where Rand said if he had been POTUS he would have fired Hillary. I soooo wish Hillary had said “Rand, you were not President and you never will be.

    The former is an executive decision based on performance, or lack of, and the latter an 8th graders retort.

  • 432. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 6:27 pm

    Newt FWIW, Huck is one of the more level headed ones around here when it comes to foreign affairs.

  • 433. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 6:32 pm

    I will be writing a lot of heated letters this week.

    Oh I’m sure your representatives are shaking in their boots. :roll:

    Crazy Larry says the bill is unconstitutional as congress is not allowed to change laws regarding pay unless they go into effect in a future session of congress. I haven’t verified Larry’s claim yet.

  • 434. James  |  January 23, 2013 at 6:34 pm

    Newt, Hillary and others said that the tape instigated the riots. She may not have composed the talking points, but she repeated them.

    .I agree, it was crazy to give categorical statements before all of the facts were known. However, that is what happened. While Susan Rice spoke of an awful video, Hillary and the President prepared an applogetic video for a Pakistani audience to cope with the demonstrations.

    Why did Hillary and the others act is if information about the tape was definitive when the London Telegraph, the Libyans and Egyptians said it was a planned attack?

    Ms. Clinton gave what in my opinion was a good explanation of the Algerian terrorist attack. Why didn’t she do the same right after Libya.I can speculate, but I want to know what was different.

  • 435. Just a Lurker  |  January 23, 2013 at 6:40 pm

    I lied one more

    “Obama phones, ever hear of those?” “Obama phone is a free government phone..nothing more kiddo” – Noah

    Yes there are two laws – Link-Up America and Life Line these are subsidized but not free. It began in 1996 under the Telecommunications Act to allow basic phone service to low income people for fire, police and health reasons. Some were given cell phones as it was cheaper or more convienent such as in rural areas. The woman in the video who claimed it was an “Obama phone” was misinformed. In 2011, a law was past putting tighter restrictions on cell phones under the TA. The myth of “Obama phone” has been debunked a number of times and sources. And you should know this if you read something other than just right wing sites.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2012/09/28/crazy-for-obama-phones-but-are-they-for-real/

    You have the f*cking nerve to accuse Democrats of being ill-informed, koolaide drinking voters! You need to get your lily white, Rush-wanabe, rude, lazy, arrogant, man-child, hateful, racist, ignorant, fearful, mis-informed, disrespectful, paranoid, narrow minded, bullshit spewing butt out of your poor old blind deaf grandmother’s basement and do something constructive with your life. For a man who claims to be employed, married with children you spend way too much time at a keyboard. Google is your friend…use it!

    Now I really need a Happy Hour!

  • 436. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 6:50 pm

    Rutherford – Okay…I suck at breaking habits, last one… promise.

    No apologies please … remember I’m the one who wants you to stick around. :-)

    Stonekettle essays are always way too long for me. I don’t know where Jim finds the time. Still, I skimmed it and he’s right on the money as usual.

    I actually enjoyed the conspiracy-o-rama much more. I’m sure Poolman is smiling ear to ear. :-)

  • 437. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    Noah sometimes a person with a kindergarten mind deserves an 8th grade response.

  • 438. Rutherford  |  January 23, 2013 at 6:57 pm

    LOL reading Lurker’s smackdown of Noah WAS my Happy Hour. :-)

    You see, Noah, THAT is why I never bothered to investigate “Obama phones” — because I always suspected it was shorthand to denigrate the poor — particularly the black poor.

  • 439. Huck  |  January 23, 2013 at 7:05 pm

    “Huck is one of the more level headed ones around here when it comes to foreign affairs.”

    I appreciate the compliment, but I don’t know how accurate it is. I try to work from analysis, but, as we have seen, my analysis isn’t always correct, and I try too hard to fill in missing factors when I should leave them as questions yet to be answered.

  • 440. poolman  |  January 23, 2013 at 7:29 pm

    And this one is for Poolman:

    lol. Cute. It has been one helluva trip so far…

    The myth of “Obama phone” has been debunked a number of times and sources.

    We’ve been over it before on this very board. It is customary to assign ongoing government policies to the current POTUS, often renaming them his policies, ie: Obamacare, even when he was not the author of such policies. It is the old notion of ‘the buck stops here’ even if merely symbolic.

    Politicians (or their handlers) embrace or distance themselves from such labeling, depending on whether they enhance or detract from their current image/audience.

    Take the Obamacare label. I understand the healthcare legislation was nearly identical to earlier GOP proposals and what had already passed in MA (Romneycare).

  • 441. Newt or no newt  |  January 23, 2013 at 8:30 pm

    James, I am not her, check this evening to see if CSpan repeats her testimony, it usually does.
    Does anyone besides me think Rand Paul was throwing his hat in the ring for 2016? Not his year is my guess. I expect to see the GOP A Team debating in 2016, I won’t make any predictions on the winner though.

  • 442. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 8:34 pm

    “Oh I’m sure your representatives are shaking in their boots. :roll:”

    You may not have heard, but this is how the public does their part in government. It takes a certain level of self motivation and concern for other than self to do it though..so proceed with caution.

  • 443. Noah  |  January 23, 2013 at 9:07 pm

    To Lurker and Rutherford.
    You are misinformed on the Obama phones. They ARE free, 250 minutes each month. My degenerate brother has 4. He sells them and gets more. Take that smackdown and shove it up your uninformed ass. Back of my hand feel good there Lurker. Got another one lined up for ya anytime ya need it.

  • 444. poolman  |  January 23, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    My degenerate brother has 4.

    :lol: Your degenerate brother?!?! THAT cracked me up, Noah. :lol:

  • 445. Doublenaught  |  January 23, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    ” He sells them and gets more.”
    Noah, why would anyone buy something they can get for free?
    What program is you brother on that he has 4 free “Obama” phones?
    If what you say is true, he’s committing fraud. That you know this and don’t report it, you are complicit in fraud.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/cellphone.asp

  • 446. Rutherford  |  January 24, 2013 at 1:59 am

    Doublenaught, welcome to the blog. Leave it to Noah to sell a hoax as fact and then defame his own brother in the process. Considering his demeanor here, I have to imagine he is insufferable with his own family as well.

    BTW, notice how Noah quotes “250 minutes” straight out of the hoax chain letter. Either laughable or pathetic or both.

  • 447. Noah  |  January 24, 2013 at 2:33 am

    Rutherford, not had enough bitch slapping over this bruthah? There is a black market for these phones Doublenaught. Its not an all you can eat program. You get one phone, period. 250 minutes. If you talk more than 250 min, but still want it on the gubment dime, you buy someone elses phone. Rutherford isn’t wanna-be black enough to have figured it out yet.

    As for defaming my brother, I speak the truth, something you have no use for unless it serves your black ass to do so. Know your role bitch.

  • 448. Noah  |  January 24, 2013 at 2:39 am

    How much does Assurance Wireless cost?
    Assurance Wireless is FREE to eligible customers. Assurance Wireless offers a FREE phone, 250 FREE minutes of wireless voice service and, with selected plans, 250 FREE texts to eligible customers each month. There are no bills, long-term contracts or activation fees for Assurance Wireless customers.

    What do you have to say now bitch?

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