Sandusky’s Thoughts on Paterno’s Death: Really?

January 23, 2012 at 6:31 pm 155 comments

I was browsing the web site of the Los Angeles Times yesterday when I stumbled upon an article about former Penn State assistant coach Jerry Sandusky expressing condolences to the family of just deceased head coach Joe Paterno. Really? What responsible newspaper thinks anyone should give a flying fig what Jerry Sandusky thinks about anything? Jerry Sandusky is a serial child rapist (ahem, allegedly). He deserves a total media blackout until his ass is put in prison where it belongs.

As for the man he was mourning, Joe Paterno might be a worse “sinner” than Sandusky. At least in Sandusky’s case you can blame it on a mental illness, a sick compulsion. What do we blame for Paterno’s behavior? A man in full possession of his faculties, with enough power and influence to put an immediate stop to the sexual shenanigans that went on at Penn State and he did next to nothing. So, the Los Angeles Times thinks it’s a good idea to publish an article about a child rapist (ahem, allegedly) expressing sympathy for an appeaser of evil and essentially his partner in crime.

I am neither a religious man nor a gambler but I’d wager that Joe and Jerry will meet again someday and it won’t be in heaven.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

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  • 1. poolman  |  January 23, 2012 at 8:15 pm

    I haven’t followed this whole thing very closely. It is more widespread than we would like to believe. These are things we, as a society, can’t let go of. There will always be a reporter wanting his take on things related, just as we still fascinate ourselves with Charles Manson and other famous psychopaths, the media will keep tabs.

    Guilt and remorse sometimes have strange ways of working themselves out. Denial plays a huge role. I’m certain there is so much more involved in this case that we will never know.

    These guys know they are sick and unfortunately there is almost no chance they can be rehabilitated, according to statistics. They generally don’t fair to well in lockup, either. I wouldn’t expect Sandusky to live out a very long life.

    Surely, he feels responsible for Paterno’s rapid decline. And there is the shame he brought to him and his family. Things he cannot make right.

    But there is ALWAYS forgiveness and an opportunity for repentance. Some things are never too late. Mankind may not be able to move on, by God can.

    We all hold grudges and have a tough time letting things go, which in turn hurts us and keeps us down. “Forgive them, they know not what they do” are wise words leading to release and ultimate freedom. There are things that tether us to this world that only we have the ability to break.

    I pray we can expose more of this in our sacred institutions so we can restore honest integrity to this land. I assure you there is plenty of sin to go around.

  • 2. Rutherford  |  January 24, 2012 at 1:31 am

    What really bothered me here Poolman was how even after all the wrong-doing, some folks still just don’t get it. The article in the LA Times was ill advised to say the least. Plus no one in authority has shut down Penn State football for a year. That is what needs to happen. A BIG statement needs to be made. A clear gesture of atonement must be made. The notion that this is not fair to the current athletes is a smoke screen, It is all about the money, which is how the tragedy was allowed to go on so long in the first place.

  • 3. an800lbgorilla  |  January 24, 2012 at 6:20 am

    Ahem, me thinks you doth protest too much.

    Paterno told the Athletic Director and the campus police. Last I checked, campus police were just the same as your and mine local police departments (well, you are in Chicago so your and my police departments are probably very different…).

    Paterno could have done more, and he said before he died that he regrets not doing more, but to call Sandusky and Paterno “partners in crime” is a bit over the top.

    I agree that no one should care, and the Paterno family should be especially put off by comments from Sandusky since it was Sandusky that likely destroyed the storied legacy of the winningest football coach in NCAA history. I’d keep this in mind when you think about Paterno: at Penn State, the football stadium- Beaver Stadium- is named after a former Pennsylvania governor; the library is named after Paterno, who pushed his athletes academically. Penn State has one of the highest athlete graduation rates, largely based on a culture and attitude pushed by Paterno.

    I’m not a Penn State fan, alum, or otherwise. I don’t condone the lack of action by Paterno, but he is not the single point of failure in this, nor is he the one with the most authority and responsibility in the situation to fail. I’d let go of the emotion, which is arguably hard considering the victims, and focus a bit more on the facts before you start lobbing your stones at dead men.

  • 4. El Tigre  |  January 24, 2012 at 10:35 am

    “As for the man he was mourning, Joe Paterno might be a worse “sinner” than Sandusky. At least in Sandusky’s case you can blame it on a mental illness, a sick compulsion.”

    That’s over the top.

  • 5. an800lbgorilla  |  January 24, 2012 at 11:19 am

    Apparently Paterno did not tell the campus police, which again serves as notice that there is a LOT of misinformation floating around out there about this case.

    I think folks need to walk back from the ledge a bit…

  • 6. Rutherford  |  January 24, 2012 at 11:56 am

    Had I been in a more sympathetic mood when I wrote this, I would have commented on how sad it was that a man with a lifetime of achievement and the love of his community should come to the end of his life amidst scandal. But I just can’t get past the institutional self defense mechanism that left these kids at risk. No one seemed to give a damn about the kids.

    It’s a case where there are no heroes, except perhaps the victims themselves who found the courage to talk.

  • 7. thorsaurus  |  January 24, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    Paterno made a choice. By now he has learned what is more important to God, winning football games or protecting children from monsters.

  • 8. huckingfypocrites  |  January 24, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    “Paterno made a choice. By now he has learned what is more important to God, winning football games or protecting children from monsters.”

    It seems more than a little hypocritical for an omnipotent god to sit back and allow children to be abused under the position of free will only to punish someone later for not being proactive in protecting children.

  • 9. Rutherford  |  January 24, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    It seems more than a little hypocritical for an omnipotent god to sit back and allow children to be abused under the position of free will only to punish someone later for not being proactive in protecting children.

    And there in a nutshell is the paradox of organized religion. It makes sense only to the believers.

  • 10. poolman  |  January 24, 2012 at 9:28 pm

    You guys are looking for a super hero, not the God of the universe.

    Really, in my opinion, God has crippled Himself by allowing His power to operate within and through His creation. That means we have to employ it.

    But hey, His ways are not our ways, and our understanding is not His understanding.

  • 11. PFesser  |  January 24, 2012 at 9:44 pm

    “It seems more than a little hypocritical for an omnipotent god to sit back and allow children to be abused under the position of free will only to punish someone later for not being proactive in protecting children.”

    You’d better straighten up, Huck. Eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions god’s infinite love.

  • 12. poolman  |  January 25, 2012 at 12:51 am

    Pfesser, did you miss all the Hicks I have posted over the years?

  • 13. PFesser  |  January 25, 2012 at 7:02 am

    poolman –

    I think I mentioned here or at M&H that my neuroanatomy prof from med school is an unrepentant liberal and he just turned me on to Hicks last week. The quotes are just amazing. I think he died young; too bad.

    Things seem to have improved over there, n’cest pas?

  • 14. an800lbgorilla  |  January 25, 2012 at 7:09 am

  • 15. an800lbgorilla  |  January 25, 2012 at 7:09 am

  • 16. an800lbgorilla  |  January 25, 2012 at 7:13 am

  • 17. an800lbgorilla  |  January 25, 2012 at 7:59 am

  • 18. PFesser  |  January 25, 2012 at 10:23 am

    gorilla –

    Here’s one back at ‘cha.

  • 19. an800lbgorilla  |  January 25, 2012 at 10:55 am

    I know (or at least believe) this is tongue-in-cheek, but I must admit I laughed my ass off. Quite the caricature…

  • 20. Rutherford  |  January 25, 2012 at 12:02 pm

    Gorilla, I’ll peek at your videos later but I have a question for you from the prior thread.

    I understand your anxiety over Egypt even though I think Huck’s instinct not to panic is appropriate. My question is, where are you coming from? Do you think we should have backed Mubarak and prevented his ouster somehow? If not … and if you support free elections … then can’t you agree that your anxiety is a consequence of freedom? We can’t support “the will of the people” only when that will results in outcomes that make us comfortable.

  • 21. Rutherford  |  January 25, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    Regarding 19, I bet Colandra (?) is a Republican. :-)

  • 22. El Tigre  |  January 25, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    “Regarding 19, I bet Colandra (?) is a Republican.”

    Racist?

  • 23. poolman  |  January 25, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    I’ll summarize them for you, Rutherford…

    The videos show some exerts of Obama’s past speeches and offer bullet point assessments. It seems the intent is to show repetition or failings. Anyway, they peak at 17 and go downhill from there.

    If you are familiar with the ABO mindset that some of our fellow contributors have expressed, the first 3 clips are somehow going to reinforce that, in a conserv’o’mental-like fashion.

    Gotta love the new more democratic military. :wink:

  • 24. Rutherford  |  January 25, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    LOL … no Tigre, I’m just picturing one of two things. Either the woman is mocking what she believes is the conservative attitude toward black Obama supporters or she is herself a conservative disgusted with what SHE believes is the motivation of black Obama supporters.

    She reminds me of a slightly less talented Whoopi Goldberg.

  • 25. thorsaurus  |  January 25, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    “then can’t you agree that your anxiety is a consequence of freedom? We can’t support “the will of the people” only when that will results in outcomes that make us comfortable.” – R

    Is this not the exact dynamic you and Huck condemned God for in #8 and #9?

  • 26. huckingfypocrites  |  January 25, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    No it is nowhere near the same.

    This is talking about the will of the people as it applies to the democratic process.

    #s 8 and 9 were talking about the will of people as it applies to a god who sits back and allows them to harm kids through free will and then will punish those who sat back and allowed kids to be harmed…which is exactly what “he” did.

  • 27. PFesser  |  January 25, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    You see what I mean, Huck? When you get any deeper than, “I BELIEVE!” and actually start trying to make some sense of it, the whole proposition of gods degenerates into complete silliness.

  • 28. poolman  |  January 25, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    UAW shared this at M&H. I thought it might get a rise. :smile:

    http://justpiper.com/2011/12/democratic-dream-ticket/

  • 29. huckingfypocrites  |  January 25, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    Let me try and make it easier….

    If God sits back and allows kids to be harmed, why should he punish someone who sits back and allows kids to be harmed?

    Isn’t that person just emulating the actions of God?

    These are really rhetorical questions, Rutherford got it right. This stuff makes absolutely no logical sense. It is based purely on theology, which is akin to myth as far as I am concerned.

  • 30. poolman  |  January 25, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    Actually if God intervened in the way you three are advocating, what would be of free will?

  • 31. an800lbgorilla  |  January 25, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    I understand your anxiety over Egypt even though I think Huck’s instinct not to panic is appropriate. My question is, where are you coming from? Do you think we should have backed Mubarak and prevented his ouster somehow? If not … and if you support free elections … then can’t you agree that your anxiety is a consequence of freedom? We can’t support “the will of the people” only when that will results in outcomes that make us comfortable.” – R

    Egypt is a perfect example of failed diplomacy, but what is so impressive about this failure is that it didn’t start with Egypt.

    We have multiple interests in the Middle East, and the way this Administration dealt with the issue failed to recognize those interests or work towards protecting them. We didn’t have to back Mubarak, but we could have worked closely on transitioning the government in such a way that it didn’t leave a complete power vacuum.

    The initial failure was in Tunisia. Had we proactively addressed the Tunisian uprisings, we could have mediated between both the regime and the opposition to develop a transition plan. This plan would have transcended the Tunisian crisis and would have been applicable to Egypt, which was far more important. But since the Administration dropped the ball on Tunisia, it was not in a position to influence the Egyptian uprising. This problem was only compounded by the sheer ignorance and stupidity of the Obama Administration when it brashly threw it’s lot in with the revolution.

    My major fear with Egypt is that it is 1979 all over again. Most forget- or never knew- that the revolution against the Shah started with liberal sectarians, who successfully brought down the Shah over liberal and economic issues, but were then brought to heel by the clerics after the security apparatus of the state was removed. Khomeini didn’t start that revolution, nor did he drive the Shah out, but his clerics were the best organized to exploit the security and governance vacuum that existed following the Shah’s fall. Likewise, we are seeing the exact same thing in Egypt.

    We have two carrier battlegroups in the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean because the Theocracy is threatening to shut down a critical choke point of international commerce. Who’s to say we don’t see those same kinds of threats over the Suez Canal because the Islamist government, which has repeatedly made clear that it is not our ally, wants to make a point.

    Same thing with Libya. This Administration, again, threw its lot in with the oppositionists, except that it didn’t know who they are. The FACT that we’re seeing al-Qaida flags prominently displayed in Libyan and Egyptian cities alike should send shivers down your spine.

    As for democracy and “freedom”, I see little freedom under Islamist interpretations of Sharia law, so uneducated comments of ‘we’ll see’ are disturbing, especially from those who supposedly should know better. Islamist’s COEXIST? My ass.

    Democracy is expensive. Very expensive. Not just in wealth, but in infrastructure, education, culture, etc. Democracy requires a lot of infrastructure as well as an educated population. It also requires a culture of independence among the population to effectively make the premise work. This is one of my major issues with neo-cons (who I can’t stand) because they pursue this meme about spreading democracy, but they don’t take into consideration the extremely high costs of democracy.

    Our job, with regards to foreign policy, is NOT to spread democracy, but to protect our interests. International relations isn’t completely amoral, but it can’t be executed on emotional whims based on unrealistic, and incredibly uneducated ‘good ideas’.

    I think we could be on the edge of losing significant interests in the Middle East because of the complete and total failure to appropriately address the issues of the Arab “spring”, which is about to become an Islamist winter. I hope I’m wrong, but I’m not going to be beguiled into believing a press statement over decades worth of documented positions hostile to the US, the West in general, and our allies in the region.

  • 32. PFesser  |  January 25, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    poolman –

    I have exchanged with you long enough that I know you actually Think about this stuff, so your points at least deserve more than a casual dismissal.

    I believe that the mythology was just so unsupportable that the folks who dreamed it up needed some kind of safe haven to retreat to when it got too hot for them, and “free will” is just that. It, of course, does not avoid the logical contradictions exactly like Huck talks about, but it lets the theologians get some cover by putting the argument into an endless loop at least, and go ’round and ’round, never resolving anything. (God knows all, past and present, and knew from the beginning how you would choose, so it doesn’t matter what you do. NO, you had FREE WILL…round and round we go.)

    It just makes no sense. sorry.

  • 33. an800lbgorilla  |  January 25, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    A case in point of the Islamist interpretation of democratic governance.

    Yassir Al-Burhami: Appointing infidels to positions of authority over Muslims is prohibited. Allah said: “Never will Allah grant the infidels a way [to triumph] over the Believers.”

    We are not afraid of losing the elections or of not getting votes. We are not trying to ingratiate ourselves before the people.

    Can the Christians of Egypt be compared to the Jews of Al-Medina? The case of the Jews of Al-Medina is one example of the relations between the Muslims and the infidels. The Muslims can implement any form of conduct used by the Prophet Muhammad. When the Prophet Muhammad was still in Mecca, he dealt with the infidels in a certain way, and when the Muslims are weak, they should deal with the infidels this way. “Refrain from action, pray, and pay the zakkat.”

    In many infidel countries, such as occupied Palestine, we instruct Muslims to do just that. We are not telling the Muslims in Gaza to launch rockets every day, which would lead to the destruction of the entire country. We tell them to adhere to the truce.

    When the Prophet Muhammad first arrived in Al-Medina, he signed a treaty with the Jews without forcing them to pay the jizya poll tax. This was necessary at the time, but when they breached the treaty, he fought them, and eventually, he imposed the jizya upon the People of the Book.

  • 34. poolman  |  January 25, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    If the time you spend here in this “life” is already predetermined, what incentive is there to do anything? Ride the ride. But if you feel you can tweak the ride, do it. But do it for either good or evil.* Those are really the only choices.

    *Your definition of good and evil may be subject to filtering and mind altering conditions.

  • 35. El Tigre  |  January 25, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    As R’s blog descends into Fat Grannies hell. . .

  • 36. thorsaurus  |  January 25, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    G at #14, At least you’ll never have to worry about this guy making the same speech two years in a row.

  • 37. poolman  |  January 25, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    Yeah Thor,

    It’s too bad Romney won’t switch religions and become Catholic or Evangelical. I think it would seal the deal.

  • 38. an800lbgorilla  |  January 25, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    Regarding 19, I bet Colandra (?) is a Republican.” – R

    Are you calling her an Uncle Tom?

  • 39. thorsaurus  |  January 25, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Poolman, I really liked your 34. “If he thought he could fly, why didn’t he take off from the ground?” Brilliant.

  • 40. James  |  January 25, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    I agree with an800poundgorilla (2:10PM) “In international affairs, there are no friendships, only interests.”

    I believe in God, but I don’t know what God is. Our concept of “God” is in my opinion a conglomeration of religious concepts dating at least from the ice age. The Old Testament, illustrates how “God” and His relationship with his people changed over the generations.

    Since you mentioned ancient myths, PFessor,
    my research on my Scandinavian/Sami ancestors showed that the Sami, Europe’s last last indigenous population worshiped a single god before the Vikings and other Scandinavians influenced them.They relied on shamans, priests who like Jesus descended into Hell to conquer demons and other evil. In many cases, the Hell where the shaman descended was one’s subconscious mind. Real power existed not in the external but in the soul, a secret, inner form. To reach the hidden world was the purpose of the ritual. To record the meaning was the purpose of God.

    One might dismiss this as superstition, but such beliefs sustained those people for perhaps thousands of years, much longer than the Christian and other modern religions have existed. Moreover, now that the Sami have been given more freedom to recall their heritage, they are readopting their shamanistic beliefs and incorporating them with Christianity.

    Are they nostalgic for something forceably taken from them? Or was the old religion more than “unsupportable myth?” Witness have supported shaman’s successes just as Christian faith healers have apparently healed people. So do placebos. .

    “Is it real” and Does it work? are not mutually exclusive. It can be real and not work or it can work and not be real.

    I still believe in God, whatever it is, and like you, I respect Poolman’s beliefs..

    The Penn State scandal hit home last night. Our local high school principle and coach was suspended for pulling down a girl’s jeans after a game.

  • 41. thorsaurus  |  January 25, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    Huck, R and PF.
    I’m not trying to “save” you guys and I hope it doesn’t come across that way. I just found it interesting that you justify the mess in Egypt because it is necessary for the process of growth, hopefully leading to the evolution of a better society and better existence for the people of that region, but when it comes to God, he can not employ that same process. In order to be God, he must not allow us to fall, to fail, to hurt ourselves or others. Yes, He could have created a race of robots. Personally, I’m glad he chose not to.

  • 42. thorsaurus  |  January 25, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Sami rock. ;)

  • 43. PFesser  |  January 25, 2012 at 4:20 pm

    thor –

    Appreciate your pov. To my eye, the mess in the Middle East is a *consequence* of their religion, and is in no way any kind of progress. Evolution? Hardly! I see it as “devoluton,” if there is such a word.

    We’ve just replaced one repressive regime with another. The folks wanted to be free, but IMHO they are out of the frying pan – into the fire. The Islamists are just like the govt, they are organized, and when the people took out the govt, with the help of Barack Hussein Obama, by the way, it freed the next oppressors (the clerics) to do their thing. In practical terms I don’t see a dime’s difference between Mubarak and the Islamic Brotherhood, or whatever the hell they’re called…And because these citizens believe in Islam, the new oppressors have additional leverage to keep them in line.

    IMHO, until these folks get themselves educated, wise up, and throw off their superstitions, they will NEVER progress; it is their religion that holds them back. I believe we would have had the same thing here, except the Founding Fathers WERE educated, and, having seen it all before, explicitly wrote religion out of the government.

  • 44. thorsaurus  |  January 25, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    Egyptians, arguably, formed the first great civilization under the “burden” of superstition. I only hope they can still identify their “false prophets”. One thing is for sure, the Saudis are watching this as closely as Huck and G.

    BTW, did you guys see the SEALS did it again.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/25/2607425/navy-seals-rescue-2-held-captive.html

  • 45. James  |  January 25, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    Thanks Thor. I like Sophia Jannok’s singing. Another is SomBy: the winner of Liet International 2009 on YouTube.

    We haven’t merely replaced another repressive regime with another. We have enabled another more dangerous group of people to rule. The Muslim Brotherhood, for example was repressed for years, and to survive, they organized and built a cohesive leadership. They are considered relatively conservative compared to others waiting for their chance. Murbarak may be like Iran’s Shaw compared to the present Iranian regime.

    The Muslim Brotherhood is akin to the Irish separatist fighters. Both sides ran political organizations which hid behind religion. Given the area’s political legacy, it is difficult to know if in the absence of organized religion the same post -spring scenario would have played out. I think it would have evolved to a similar conclusion because the area knows little of democracy except as a concept.

    Remember, the Menshevics took Russia, but the better organized and brutal Bolshevics destroyed them. Their god was the state. I agree the Arab’s religion is holding them back, but as with Russia, their traditions do too.

    This is a non -sequitar, but the Finns/ Samis were the only ground forces to defeat the Soviet Army, I believe. Around WW11, they killed 27,000 Soviet troops and lost 2,700. A writer described the “Winter War” as one of the most effective combinations of knowledge of local terrain combined with extreme brutality in the twentieth century. The Samis later conducted demonstrations around 1980 which made OWS look like wimps. Maybe if the liberals were as organized and as violent as the Scandinavians they would have held on longer.

    Obama’s planners should have known the liberals were neophytes and idealists who were so unorganized they were unable to survive the rise of organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood. Like the communists, they waited patiently for their time to take power. Our planners should also have looked at who the majority of people supported. They should have estimated the effectiveness of a potential liberal movement before they let the situation unravel. We should have provided help to our chosen people, but I don’t think we did.

    Lest we feel too superior, I think our revolution was a close call. For one thing, some of his supporters wanted to declare George Washington king.

  • 46. huckingfypocrites  |  January 25, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    “A case in point of thean Islamist interpretation of democratic governance.”

    Like it says…that’s the Salafist view.

    The view which earned a whole 25% of the vote.

    It’s not the view of the 46% who voted for the moderate group that has continually pledged to not adopt a Salafist view.

    Nor is it the view of those who filled in the other 29%

    Get it through your head. Egyptians don’t want Salafist rule in Egypt.

  • 47. dead rabbit  |  January 25, 2012 at 11:19 pm

    25% percent is a HUGE number for such a dangerous and extreme movement. Even the Nazi’s couldn’t get 25% before Hitler took over.

    The Muslim Brotherhood supporters could go Salafist in a heart beat. We’ve seen that one before.

    Egyptians have a massive ignorant and destitute population of people living in their own shit.

    Egypt is dangerous.

  • 48. dead rabbit  |  January 25, 2012 at 11:23 pm

    “Get it through your head. Egyptians don’t want Salafist rule in Egypt.”-hucking

    Really? You got your ear to the Arab street? You feel the pulse of the shanty towns, professor?

    كس أمك.

  • 49. dead rabbit  |  January 25, 2012 at 11:36 pm

  • 50. huckingfypocrites  |  January 26, 2012 at 1:35 am

    “Really? You got your ear to the Arab street? You feel the pulse of the shanty towns, professor?”

    No, but I do know how to add and subtract. I learned that a few years ago.

    The Salafists got less than 25% of the vote. Which means more than 75% voted against the Salafists.

    100% – 25% = 75%
    75% > 25%

    I literally cannot make it any easier than that for you.

    You can qualify it with Hitler trivia all you want, it won’t change the figures or the facts.

    Egyptians don’t want Salafist rule in Egypt.

  • 51. poolman  |  January 26, 2012 at 1:47 am

    Though founded by a pacifist, Christianity has justified some of the most brutal slaughters in human history, from the wars of the late Roman Empire to the Crusades to the Inquisition to world wars to genocides against “heathens,” Muslims and Jews. Yet, Gary G. Kohls says the essence of Christianity can still be reclaimed.

    http://consortiumnews.com/2012/01/25/what-kind-of-christianity-is-this/

    Get back to where you once belonged. Wooooooooo…

  • 52. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:18 am

    Are you calling her an Uncle Tom?

    Wouldn’t that be an Auntie Tammy? :-)

    No, G … I’ve evolved. I believe blacks can be legitimately conservative. Perhaps not yet legitimately Republican. ;-)

  • 53. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:26 am

    100% – 25% = 75%
    75% > 25%

    Egyptians don’t want Salafist rule in Egypt.

    Not for nuthin’ but the same numbers prove Republicans do not want Mitt Romney. :-)

  • 54. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:33 am

    Thor when you ask me to accept God letting people fail (comparing it to humans letting democracy run its course) you’re now asking me to view God in human terms. That seems contradictory to me. Why should I expect human qualities from a deity? Particularly a deity that we are encouraged to pray to for intervention in our lives?

    Faith is fascinating. There are those who have it (you, Tex, Poolman, etc.), those who struggle to maintain it (Rabbit) and those who don’t find it a necessary ingredient to good living (me and if I may be so bold, Huck and Pfesser).

    Contrary to the reputation I seemed to have earned here as a Jesus-mocker (I think undeserved), there are times when I’d love to be a believer. “I don’t know” is far harder to live with at times than “I’m dead certain.”

  • 55. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:37 am

    Tigre, only two folks in this thread are tourists from Fat Grannies … Poolman and James.

    I might remind you that Muffy, who can be quite conservative in her views is a Fat Grannies exile. (I miss Muffy … wonder what she’s up to?)

    I’ve been to Fat Grannies and I assure you, this place will never be Fat Grannies.

  • 56. an800lbgorilla  |  January 26, 2012 at 6:56 am

    You keep shifting the argument from Islamist to Salafist. That is inaccurate and obfuscates the discussion- Salafists ARE Islamists. If you look at the historical platforms of these groups- not their PR talking points- you see they are very similar.

    According to Gallup, as of December, 81% support Islamist parties, which is up from 23% in September. The only real difference between September and December was the political party organization, which means that the message of the Islamist parties ALREADY had a base of support.

    From Pew Research Center:

    Do you have a favorable or unfavorable view of al Qaeda?
    Egypt: 2010- 19%; 2011- 21%

    Is suicide bombing justifiable?
    Egypt: 2007- 8%; 2008- 13%; 2009- 15%; 2010- 20%; 2011- 28%

    It’s not the view of the 46% who voted for the moderate group that has continually pledged to not adopt a Salafist view.

    So you are calling the Muslim Brotherhood moderate? This statement alone probably says the most. If you believe the Brotherhood is moderate, well, you’re ignorant. I’ll refrain from calling you a stupid moron, because I truly believe you know next to nothing about who they are. Now, of course, you could prove me wrong and indeed be a stupid moron, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

    The Muslim Brotherhood’s motto:

    “Allah is our goal; the Prophet is our guide; the Quran is our constitution; Jihad is our way; and death for the glory of Allah is our greatest ambition.”

    Clearly, a moderate position…

  • 57. an800lbgorilla  |  January 26, 2012 at 7:15 am

    “Really? You got your ear to the Arab street? You feel the pulse of the shanty towns, professor?”

    No, but I do know how to add and subtract. I learned that a few years ago.

    The Salafists got less than 25% of the vote. Which means more than 75% voted against the Salafists.

    100% – 25% = 75%
    75% > 25%

    I literally cannot make it any easier than that for you.” – Huck

    Ahhhh, no.

    Al-Nour received 29% in the third phase and 28.8% in the second, which averages out to 27.4% when you include their first phase 24.4%.

    27.4% > 25%

    But again, this is a straw man argument. They have a parliamentary system, so the number isn’t nearly as important as the proportion it represents. The Islamist parties took 70% of the parliamentary seats.

  • 58. El Tigre  |  January 26, 2012 at 9:23 am

    “Tigre, only two folks in this thread are tourists from Fat Grannies … Poolman and James.”

    Huh?

    Raji?

    Uh, PF, the other half of the pious duo? Enjoy the discussion. Yawn. . .

    And R. I ain’t no religious type, but I’ll calls ‘em ikes I sees ‘em. Your denial of mocking Chritianity is absurd. Your support of what PF says, it’s tenor and content, is often most offensive, even to a distinterested observer such as myself. Intentionally so too.

  • 59. PFesser  |  January 26, 2012 at 9:40 am

    “Contrary to the reputation I seemed to have earned here as a Jesus-mocker (I think undeserved), there are times when I’d love to be a believer.”

    Sure – so would everybody. Think I wouldn’t like to sit on the couch in the big farmhouse where I grew up and talk to my mother and father again? Watch our big Belgian, Ol’ Pete, strain and sweat, pulling huge rocks out of the creek or pulling the plow. Smell the sweetness of fresh-plowed soil and watch my father turn it into green, lush food for our table? Think I don’t have pain that I will never roam those fields and woods again as a little boy or play with my childhood best friend?

    Of corse I do. But, unfortunately, there is no evidence that it will ever happen. You have to live in reality, not fantasy. Better the uncomfortable truth than the comfortable lie.

    “Your support of what PF says, it’s tenor and content, is often most offensive, even to a distinterested observer such as myself. Intentionally so too.”

    At least for my part, intentional it most certainly is. Sometimes I do OK, but for the most part I do not suffer fools gladly. The one thing I have learned from Hitchens and Dawkins is that you do not give that nonsense a pass; you call it, as you say, as you see it.

  • 60. James  |  January 26, 2012 at 10:22 am

    Rutherford, Pfessor is also from “Fat Grannies.” Our presence there changed the dynamics a bit, but many still there are intolerant political ideologues. Some, posters to the site, like the Muslim Brotherhood are moderate compared to the fartherest left. That doesn’t make them or the Muslim Brotherhood moderate in absolute terms. It makes them moderate compared to those who surround them.

    In the same sense the Soviets were moderate or conservative compared to Chairman Mau’s Great Leap Forward. It is all relative. I believe little good will come from the Muslim Brotherhood. Organization and determination matter more than poll numbers. If the more extremist people are able to portray the Brotherhood as too “establishment” they will drift toward the extreme.

    Poolman’s quote that “Christianity has justified some of the most brutal slaughters in history” is apt. If you change “Christianity” to caucasions it is still true. Brown or white we seem to be the most irritable race on the planet. If Poolman or Pfessor told the Helen and Margaret folks I compared some of them to the Muslim Brotherhood to make a point we would also witness “one of the most brutal slaughters…” if they could get at me.

    I believe in God, and I also accept that Jesus is our savior, but I don’t know what that means. I think the God we worship was made in our image as most gods were. If God intervenes in our lives, why does He play favorites? Is God playing a cosmic board game where some of us win and lose as part of the score? Its possible.

    God and Satan made a bet over Job. Job lost everything, including family members and friends. Job helped God win the bet and he was rewarded. However, the relatives who suffered because of a bet stayed dead.

  • 61. Raji  |  January 26, 2012 at 10:24 am

    Rutherford, Tigre’s right. Remember I wandered over here when you got outed at M&H? I probably fall in Muffy’s category although once in a blue moon I will post something over there to see if a discussion of merit can get started. So far it hasn’t worked. I think I was exiled ;-)

  • 62. Raji  |  January 26, 2012 at 10:29 am

    Rutherford, I have a question related to your original post about Penn State. Why were young boys at Penn State and why were they not supervised? I may have missed that info in the media.

  • 63. James  |  January 26, 2012 at 10:38 am

    “I don’t Know” is hard Rutherford. “I don’t know” either. I don’t think you can prove or disprove the existence of God. It is a matter of faith. Even if eternal nothingness meets us at our deaths, faith in something more than random events makes the trip easier.

  • 64. James  |  January 26, 2012 at 10:46 am

    I think the boys may have been at Penn State because they were some of the at risk children Jerry Sandusky was helping with his organization. If so, Sandusky would have been the supervisor. Maybe I’m wrong. It is just a guess.

  • 65. El Tigre  |  January 26, 2012 at 10:53 am

    “Brown or white we seem to be the most irritable race on the planet.”

    Bizarre twist. From religion to race.

    Perhaps you should include the irreligious or atheistic and include some Asian and Black atrocities. Pol Pot? Baby Doc?

    Maybe it depends on whether you’re slaughtering your own?

  • 66. El Tigre  |  January 26, 2012 at 10:56 am

    “Why were young boys at Penn State and why were they not supervised? I may have missed that info in the media.”

    Sandusky ran a boys home (refuge). He took them to Penn under the pretense that it was connected with his “charitable” endeavors.

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11310/1187908-454-0.stm

  • 67. El Tigre  |  January 26, 2012 at 11:05 am

    Incidentally, my comment about Fat Grannies wasn’t intended as a slight to Raji or Muffy (or James whom I am not really familiar with). They don’t engage in the weird, symbiotic ego-stroking that Poolman and PF do.

    (I am not willing to give that nonsense a pass either).

    Poolman and PF, however, deserve each other in an environment that embraces their preach and sanctimony.

    Maybe R you’ll consider dealing honestly with their bullshit, (including the patent anti-semitism) with the rigor you apply to the false stereotypes projected on to your conservative commentators here.

  • 68. James  |  January 26, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Yes, from religion to race is a bizarre twist. My mind works that way.

    I agree about the Asian and black atrocities. One could add the Japanese who were building an economy based on the western example. Most of those societies were “slaughtering their own.”

    Whites have tended to slaughter their neighbors as well as “their own”.

  • 69. El Tigre  |  January 26, 2012 at 11:32 am

    James, I made the “their own” comment because the racial parallel with religious atrocity (or for that matter national) is really no such thing.

  • 70. PFesser  |  January 26, 2012 at 11:34 am

    “Incidentally, my comment about Fat Grannies wasn’t intended as a slight to Raji or Muffy (or James whom I am not really familiar with). They don’t engage in the weird, symbiotic ego-stroking that Poolman and PF do.”

    I was going to refute that syllable by syllable and realized it wasn’t worth the effort. This will do nicely:

    You are full of shit.

  • 71. El Tigre  |  January 26, 2012 at 11:40 am

    PF, You are a legend in your own mind. You are a perfect fit at Fat Grannies where you’ll have no trouble finding others that agree provided you do the same for them.

    Wanna have a spelling contest? :lol:

  • 72. PFesser  |  January 26, 2012 at 11:41 am

    Tigger –

    Now that you seem to be Tex’s alter ego, this will do nicely as well.

    We are not at Fat Grannies.

  • 73. PFesser  |  January 26, 2012 at 11:42 am

    And you are still full of shit.

  • 74. PFesser  |  January 26, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    For your entertainment. New indication for pelvic ultrasound:

    “23 year-old white female who states her boyfriend can feel something during intercourse.”

    (I thought that was the whole point of the exercise.)

    Medicaid by the way…My government is paying for this?

  • 75. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    Uh, PF, the other half of the pious duo?

    I did forget Pfesser, shame on me.

    I’m not aware that Raji hails from Fat Grannies. I must have missed that somehow. Even so, Tigre you must admit Raji writes some of the most eloquent and reasonable comments on the blog … and she’s not a knee jerk liberal by any stretch.

    As for Jesus, I beg to differ. If I mock anything, I mock the arrogance of folks who find religious skepticism so hard to grok.

  • 76. El Tigre  |  January 26, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    “Even so, Tigre you must admit Raji writes some of the most eloquent and reasonable comments on the blog … and she’s not a knee jerk liberal by any stretch.”

    Agreed.

    And that wasn’t my point.

  • 77. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    Why were young boys at Penn State and why were they not supervised?

    THAT is the truly reprehensible aspect of this. They were supervised …. by Sandusky. The boys were part of a charitable organization that Sandusky worked with. He “mentored” these boys, including taking them to football games, etc etc. Apparently he would take them to Penn State for athletic activity and then encourage them to shower with him when they were through. That’s only one aspect of his predatory behavior.

  • 78. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    Bizarre twist. From religion to race.

    Perhaps you should include the irreligious or atheistic and include some Asian and Black atrocities. Pol Pot? Baby Doc?

    Tigre, humans are flawed. No race has a monopoly on righteousness. I can’t speak for anyone else but I certainly don’t hold any ethnic group or race up for sainthood.

  • 79. PFesser  |  January 26, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    If he did this, and there is every indication that he DID, he is a real sonofabitch. These kids all start out one-down, and to prey on them in such a vulnerable state, under the guise of helping them get their lives straightened out, takes a certain kind of bastard.

    I hope it’s not true, but if it is, god help him.

  • 80. poolman  |  January 26, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    re 74, It’s a shame that in such an advanced society (as ours is considered to be) that the basic natural functions of the human body are not well understood by all members of that society. With the world at our fingertips, we know more about everything on the planet and less about ourselves.

    We blame the ignorant instead of the system that produced him/her.

    That is why parenting is utmost important. Trusting our youth to institutions doesn’t always work in our/their best interest.

    Government run institutions have an especially poor track record.

    Training a child is a full time job. We should invest more of our time there. It will definitely count as time well spent.

  • 81. El Tigre  |  January 26, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    “Tigre, humans are flawed. No race has a monopoly on righteousness. I can’t speak for anyone else but I certainly don’t hold any ethnic group or race up for sainthood.”

    Then we’re in agreement.

  • 82. poolman  |  January 26, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    Tigre, humans are flawed. No race has a monopoly on righteousness.

    He knows that. What did you think he’s looking at? It’s his day job.

  • 83. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Maybe R you’ll consider dealing honestly with their bullshit

    Hey, where I see BS I tend to call it out. Just two examples: I’ve called out PF when I felt his pro-choice stance crossed the line into callousness. I’ve also often teased Poolman for his conspiracy theories.

    I’m still not convinced that Poolman is antisemitic but that is probably because I don’t revere Israel. I view them as a nation among many nations, capable of shenanigans just like other nations. I have serious problems with our “support without question” of Israeli policies. If I just take the selfish view, what nation affords us that free pass? Does Israel afford us that free pass?

    I’m sure you blame white liberal guilt for the American welfare state. Well I blame international guilt over the Holocaust for our no-questions-asked policy toward Israel.

  • 84. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 1:18 pm

    It’s a shame that in such an advanced society (as ours is considered to be) that the basic natural functions of the human body are not well understood by all members of that society.

    I’m currently in the chapter of “God is Not Great” where Hitchens discusses the great harm that religion has done in battling disease. While Christians have been guilty of this, apparently Muslims have been some of the worst offenders, telling their followers that polio vaccine is the infidel’s way of contaminating them and making them convert.

    Truly reprehensible.

  • 85. Raji  |  January 26, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    Tigre, no slight taken as I “got” your point and I guess “thanks” for the link. Maybe I was better off not knowing :-(

    Ruthrford, your post makes more sense to me now. UGH! I guess I just didn’t want to follow the news on that one. Thanks for the compliment. I find I learn more by reading than I do pontificating ;-)

  • 86. poolman  |  January 26, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    I hate no peoples – race or religion. Semitic peoples included.

    I also hate no peoples based on occupation or net worth or lack thereof.

    I hate evil. I hate injustice. I hate deception.

    Ignorance I can forgive.

  • 87. Raji  |  January 26, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    Rutherford,
    What do you think of Hitchens book so far? I’m wading my way through Neil Gaimen’s American Gods. Talk about weird but an interesting take on the subject.

  • 88. El Tigre  |  January 26, 2012 at 1:32 pm

    You sure have a preoccupation with it then and spend an inordinate amount of time gathering your “proof.” :roll:

  • 89. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    Raji, I’m greatly enjoying Hitchens book which I borrowed a Kindle version of from the public library. I won’t finish it before I have to check it back in, but I’m gonna get back on the waiting list to borrow it again.

    Regardless of the subject matter, he is a masterful writer. And he writes the way he speaks. I almost literally hear his voice in my head as I read.

    I could not write “God is not Great” because I lack the authority of experience. Hitchens, however, writes not just from some intellectual vantage point but from his experiences. It’s especially amusing to hear him describe his earliest suspicion (at age 8 or 9) that something about this religious stuff he was being told just didn’t add up.

    He also describes his experience with his good friend Salman Rushdie who had a fatwa declared against him. Hitchens hosted Rushdie at his home and was subsequently warned (I think by the State dept) that he (Hitchens) was now at risk for retribution.

  • 90. James  |  January 26, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    I didn’t think the little throw away comment I made would attract much notice.

    Of course no race or religion has a monopoly on violence because we are all alike. Caucasians’ record results from circumstance. For various reasons, their societies have been expansionistic . Most Asian and African societies have not imposed their will outside of local spheres of influence.

    China, for example, became relatively isolationist after 1456. Otherwise, the Chinese might have been starting world-wide wars.

    Caucasians started and did most of the fighting in our recent world wars, the Cold War, Islamic terrorist attacks and Western counter attacks. They did it because they could, and unlike others they had interests across the world to defend.

  • 91. an800lbgorilla  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Speaking of culturally sensitive…

  • 92. an800lbgorilla  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    I hate deception.

    Such low self-esteem…

  • 93. thorsaurus  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    Rabbit, I liked 49.

  • 94. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    Hey Rabbit, for the benefit of us infidels, could you translate the Arabic in comment 48? Is it allahu akbar?

  • 95. PFesser  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    R –

    re: Muslims and poliovaccine. I always think of religions – especially those with a tradition of violence – as being like a rabiesvirus. Once the brain is infected, there is no possibility of cure; you have to destroy the animal.

    So, along those lines, you shouldn’t be so negative about their not getting vaccinated. I believe in always looking for the good side of things – if they don’t get the vaccine and die from the disease, they won’t reproduce. Problem solved.

    See there? Doesn’t that make it better?

  • 96. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    LOL no one ever claimed Joe Biden was culturally sensitive.

  • 97. thorsaurus  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    “This is a non -sequitar, but the Finns/ Samis were the only ground forces to defeat the Soviet Army,” – J

    Don’t tell Afghanistan or the Mujahidin.

  • 98. Raji  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    Rutherford,
    Our library doesn’t have the Kindle lending system so I’ll have to put it on my wish list. I did just finish reading Rushdie’s version of the friendship in his farewell to Hitchens article in Vanity Fair.
    Apparently one of spooks indicated he might want to move his “home”.

  • 99. thorsaurus  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    “So, along those lines, you shouldn’t be so negative about their not getting vaccinated. I believe in always looking for the good side of things – if they don’t get the vaccine and die from the disease, they won’t reproduce. Problem solved” – PF

    But a lot won’t die, they will be crippled but live. Of course that will increase the market for faith healers and conversions to Christianity. See, God does have a plan. Sorry R, just playing along with the Fessor. ;)

  • 100. poolman  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    This was good, but long. Since we are talking about God is Not Great and Hitchens.

  • 101. thorsaurus  |  January 26, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    “Caucasians started and did most of the fighting in our recent world wars, the Cold War, Islamic terrorist attacks and Western counter attacks.” – J

    Japan, China, Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Angola, Sudan, Iraq, Iran, Cuba, El Salvador, Nicaragua. Looks world wide and color blind to me.

  • 102. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    Thanks Poolman for the Hitchens brothers debate. I shall watch it when I can set the time aside. Looks like a hoot!!!!

  • 103. thorsaurus  |  January 26, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    “Why should I expect human qualities from a deity? Particularly a deity that we are encouraged to pray to for intervention in our lives?” – R

    God is in all people. Why wouldn’t you recognize some of his features? :)

    And I don’t think “intervention” is the right term. “Guidance” perhaps. Like deciding when to give your teenager advice and when to give your teenager a curfew. Tough gig being a Father. ;)

  • 104. thorsaurus  |  January 26, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Tex in drag?

  • 105. James  |  January 26, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    thorsaurus, I thought about that after I wrote it. I should have mentioned Afghanistan.

    There was a difference in my opinion. The Fins and Sami fighters received relatively little outside help, and they were outnumbered about ten to one. Finland was forced to cede some of its territory after the fighting, but it remained an independent country.

    Afghanis and the Mujahidin were as determined because they were fighting for their homes, and like the Scandinavians, they had the home court advantage. However, the West was sending them high tech weapons and money. The west was also training the warriors.

    After the mid -eighties, Stinger antiaircraft missles made the Soviet Air Force too ineffective to matter. I remember seeing a picture of Osama bin Ladin holding a Stinger missile. At the end, both sides were in a stalemate. The Soviets held the cities, and the rebels controlled the countryside.

    The Soviets departed because the war had become devisive and it was an intolerable financial drain. Some writers called it the Soviet’s Vietnam. The status quo could have lasted for years,but the Soviets left for financial as much as for military reasons.

    The story in Scandinavia was different, but I should have mentioned Afghanistan.

    I forgot to write that I agree with your opening post Rutherford.

  • 106. James  |  January 26, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    God might have sent us to college. You know how that works. The kid is on his/her own as the parents try to hover from a distance, and their offspring send messages asking for more money or sympathy.

  • 107. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    Tough gig being a Father.

    Thor, you paint a picture of a benevolent and actually flawed God that wants to be your friend, someone whose shoulder you can lean on in times of trouble. It’s a kind and compassionate interpretation that I don’t think would trigger a radical atheist backlash. I’m not saying it would win over atheists but it wouldn’t piss them off.

    The problem is the book Christians follow does not paint that God, particularly the Old Testament. Forgive me that I don’t know the character’s names but here is biblical story that makes God sound, quite frankly, like a prick:

    God tells this guy to kill his baby. So the man takes the baby outside and prepares to kill him and at the last minute, God says “Whooooaa I was just f*cking with you. I wanted to see if you would obey me above all others and you passed the test. Your kid can live.”

    Pretty despicable God if you ask me. If I weren’t so lazy I’d try to find the right names and biblical verse but those well versed in the Bible know what story I’m talking about.

  • 108. poolman  |  January 26, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    The story is of Abraham and his son Isaac. It was a test of Abraham’s faith. You really have to understand the life of Abraham and why he was called to be the father of nations.

  • 109. PFesser  |  January 26, 2012 at 5:03 pm

    I believe that would be Abraham and Isaac.

    Prick doesn’t begin to touch it. But of course, people can make up some pretty fanciful stories, so don’t blame the character; the writer made him that way. Think of it as ‘rasslin’ – prearranged entertainment where someone has to play the bad guy.

    Haven’t read my bible in a long time; maybe later this winter if I get time; lots of other stuff in the queue.

  • 110. PFesser  |  January 26, 2012 at 5:04 pm

    Sorry poolman; our stuff crossed in the aether.

  • 111. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    It was a test of Abraham’s faith.

    Pretty nasty test if you ask me. Not sure what context makes it any better.

  • 112. Rutherford  |  January 26, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    PF, don’t blame the character is some good advice. But isn’t it interesting what it says about the men who invent such a God?

  • 113. PFesser  |  January 26, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    Probably just ordinary guys, R. You really, really cannot judge historical figures by modern mores. Shit, now we have the technology to kill folks by the hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, millions, and we watch it on YouTube for entertainment.

    To me that is a greater brutality than the grisly deaths of yore.

    The damned human race…

  • 114. James  |  January 26, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    Iraq and especially Iran are mostly caucasian nations.

    With the exception of Japan, most of the nations you listed were ancillary players in a world-wide confrontation of mainly European nations with world-wide interests. We and the Soviets used their local conflicts as proxy wars to save us from fighting directly with each other and risking nuclear war.

    Besides a holy book, the Bible is a social and political history which describes how early migrant people conceived and developed the substance of the God we know.

    Life was brutal and as Pfessor wrote the early worshipers were probably just ordinary guys coping with the world they inhabited. God changed as times became more civilized. Something new happened when Jesus was born. He was not the only man who claimed to be the messiah. A baptism movement began earlier as we know.

    Maybe it was like the Great Awakening or during the early 1800’s when New groups like the Christian Scientists or the Mormons were born. Maybe it was the beginning of a fulfillment of prophesy. Or it was a geopolitical change in attitude. Maybe the Isrealites were getting tired of Roman rule.

  • 115. poolman  |  January 26, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    Pretty nasty test if you ask me.

    The “nasty” did not happen. But Abram (who God renamed Abraham) knew if the One that gave him a son and promised him that through that son all nations would be blessed did not stop him from sacrificing that child, that same One could raise him from the dead to fulfill the promise. It’s a “if you love me will you trust me” thing.

    Now I don’t think Sarah would have been okay with the whole notion.

    There is a male dominant order throughout all Abrahamic faiths.

    You do understand how old this man and woman were when this long-before-promised son was born?

  • 116. thorsaurus  |  January 26, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    R – You are going to love the Hitchens’ debate, they actually bring this very topic into the arena. The Old T. is very brutal. But that was the divide that came with Jesus. The new covenant.

    Research Plato and the Euthyphro bombshell. (I’m sure I misspelled that.) The basic premise is that man, not God, decides what is moral. If God had made Abraham kill his son, then he would have just been another pagan god, lost to antiquity. But because he showed mercy, Judaism survived and now we all have heard the story. (Even atheists. ;) ) Thus, man decided if God was moral, not the other way around.

  • 117. thorsaurus  |  January 26, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    Iraq is Arab and Kurd, Iran is Persian. In Korea the North Koreans attacked the South Koreans. Are the 100,000 + Chinese that died in that war ancillary?

  • 118. dead rabbit  |  January 27, 2012 at 12:52 am

    “Is it allahu akbar?”

    No. It’s a horrible insult. Fighting words in Arabic. The translation too offensive. Not something I would tell Hucking in English, despite his love affair with the campus version of political science and Egyptian stink beards.

    The whack jobs did way too well considering the circumstances. They weren’t the main actors in the revolution itself. They aren’t tied to the military. I don’t think they have support of the only hitherto organized political party, the slightly less crazy MB’s.

    Give the radicals a few more years to make inroads as Egypt wallows in the stink of a stalled revolution.

  • 119. poolman  |  January 27, 2012 at 1:42 am

    Bible stories from the OT are pretty gruesome. They don’t cover up the ugly. The people depicted are flawed, nonetheless serve a purpose in carrying forward the knowledge of God to the next generation. The accounts depict man’s tendency toward degradation and selfishness.

    The NT introduces a time of grace that we are still within. The kingdom has come but is not established in its fullness. There is to be a time of great awakening, which I feel we are entering in.

  • 120. poolman  |  January 27, 2012 at 1:52 am

    Hissy whistlers…

  • 121. Rutherford  |  January 27, 2012 at 3:36 am

    Romney won tonight’s debate. Not a good performance for Newt at all. Real shame because I want to see Newt win Florida so I can watch the GOP crap its pants. :-)

  • 122. James  |  January 27, 2012 at 8:53 am

    Arabs are mostly caucasians. So are Kurds and iranians.Therefore they are part of my list of caucasians who have caused most of war’s deaths in the last century.

    The Korean War was the first major military conflict of the Cold War between the Soviets and the West. After WW11, basically started and fought by caucasians though Japan and other Asian people played a major role, Soviets and Americans occupied Korea. They originally agreed to unite the two occupied halves but both powers set up rival governments under their control.

    The Soviets gave the North a veteran army of Koreans and Chinese units partly composed of ethnic Koreans who had fought in WW11.

    In 1950 Secretary of State, Dean Atchenson gave a speech defining America’s defense perimeter in the western Pacific. He did not mention Korea. The North took the omission to be a sign that the United States would not interfere in a Korean civil war.

    The North invaded with the Soviet’s blessing. The UN became involved because the Soviets foolishly boycotted the meeting which voted to support the South Koreans.

    Therefore, that terrible war which killed so many people was ancillary of a greater conflict managed largely by caucasions.

    The Chinese revolution which also killed millions over the years had roots in white economic theories. The Russian Revolution inspired Chinese to establish a Communist party and Mao Zedong eventually became its leader. Soviet advisors helped the Chinese.

    It is speculative fancy I can’t prove, but had not China become communist and a nominal ally of the Soviet Union, they might not have been involved in what should have been a local civil war which might not have occurred without western colonialism and WW11.

    I was a history major, and I applied my odd outlook on life to history. One of my term papers compared basic training, slavery, Norway, and the Salem Witchcraft trials to show why the hysteria happened.

  • 123. James  |  January 27, 2012 at 9:01 am

    I was taught that the Old Testament was the time when the law ruled God’s people. The New Testament marked a time of grace when we would be saved through faith in Jesus.

    I’m rooting for Romney because I don’t want the GOP wearing Depends. My first choice would be a brokered convention choosing another candidate. As it is Republicans are doing the Democrat’s work for them.

    Obama has cleverly changed the dialogue with the help of OWS and he is now running against himself.

  • 124. dead rabbit  |  January 27, 2012 at 10:34 am

    “The Chinese revolution which also killed millions over the years had roots in white economic theories.”

    Dude. I get it. This last couple of centuries the white man has been pretty war like. But, you don’t have to force puzzle pieces.

    Yeah, according to outdated racial theories, Indians, Persians and Arabs are white. But come on, surely you don’t group them in the West?

    As for some how implicating whites for the actions of Mao because some parts of his brand of communism were written by a European Jew, you got to be kidding me.

    You are being a blow hard.

  • 125. Raji  |  January 27, 2012 at 10:59 am

    Rutherford @ #121
    Before this clown car is over, I think the GOP will have used a lot of depends ;-)

    I agree with Tex that Romney really needs to polish his act. He is known to be analytical and pursue data to the extent of being removed from his fellow workers. As a CEO he was distant. Might make him a good CEO but not a politician which he will have to become to face Obama in an election.

  • 126. El Tigre  |  January 27, 2012 at 11:14 am

    Romney is a little too wooden, and reluctant to be rhetorically aggressive. I am sure he will be working on that and a beer sense of humor for him. But at least he’s not Biden.

    R, for all of your talk about Palin, why no criticism of Dear Leader for selecting that nincompoop Biden? If something were to happen to Obummer, we would have Biden as commander-in-chief for cryin’ out loud.

    One heart beat away. . . :lol:

  • 127. El Tigre  |  January 27, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Raji, if Romney takes Fl with a large margin, I think the clown car will be out of gas.

  • 128. James  |  January 27, 2012 at 11:20 am

    “Caucasians” include Arabs, North African (Berbers), Iranians, Indian Subcontinental people, Europeans, etc. Even though these groups, including Europeans, have some non-Caucasian mixtures, they are genetically closer to each other than they are to non-Caucasians. Brown-skinned Arabs are genetically more similar to blond northern Europeans than the Japanese are to Malaysians.

    “Caucasian” describes a skeleton type rather than a skin color.

    I didn’t lump Arabs with the West. I wrote that Caucasians caused most of the deaths from war in the last century. The three major religions responsible for millions of deaths came from Caucasians. Conflicting political and economic theories responsible for even more deaths also came from white people.

    Yes, I am being a blow hard.

  • 129. Raji  |  January 27, 2012 at 11:24 am

    “If something were to happen to Obummer, we would have Biden as commander-in-chief for cryin’ out loud.” – T

    Tigre, Don’t you get the feeling that Tex would almost prefer that to have happened :lol:

    Well the clown car needs to run out of gas soon if they want to look serious. Hope you’re right.

  • 130. an800lbgorilla  |  January 27, 2012 at 11:34 am

    That’s a lot of angst for this…

  • 131. dead rabbit  |  January 27, 2012 at 11:38 am

    That northern lights vid was sweet. I’ve watched me some sky you guys wouldn’t believe in Iceland,

  • 132. El Tigre  |  January 27, 2012 at 11:43 am

    “Tigre, Don’t you get the feeling that Tex would almost prefer that to have happened.”

    Frankly, I would’ve preferred that happened.

    Clown car or not, this election is still referendum on Obama’s performance, and as much as the fawning media will try to assist, he’s got a lot to worry about.

  • 133. James  |  January 27, 2012 at 11:50 am

    Good for Governor Brewer!

    I’m not sure we wouldn’t have been better off with Biden as president.

  • 134. an800lbgorilla  |  January 27, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    For DR…

    http://www.businessinsider.com/goldman-here-are-the-6-trades-that-you-need-to-make-in-2012-2011-11#

  • 135. thorsaurus  |  January 27, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    “I’m not sure we wouldn’t have been better off with Biden as president.” – J

    Are you sure? He’s white, we probably would have attacked Canada by now. ;)

    Uganda, Rwanda, Kubla Khan …

    We all came from the Great Rift Valley so we’re all related … and we’re all black. (R, I could be your cousin. Dude, we might owe each other a shitload of Christmas Presents!)

  • 136. thorsaurus  |  January 27, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    “Good for Governor Brewer!” – J

    Funny how all that “respect for the office” bullshit flies out the window when a democrat is in office.

  • 137. James  |  January 27, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    thorsarus, yes, we are ultimately all related. If you have blue eyes, you are my mutant cousin. All of us blue-eyed folks come from a mutation north of the Black Sea.

    I’m not sure about the Canadians. They look like us, but they aren’t quite like us. Eh?

    According to what I read and heard, Governor Brewer was cordial until Obama dumped on her about how her book described their earlier meeting. Obama did something similar to Gov Jindal.

    This had nothing to do with respect for the office. It was personal.

  • 138. thorsaurus  |  January 27, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    Poolman, the northern lights video was cool. Best light show I ever saw was along the Athabasca River in the Canadian Rockies. Amazing.

  • 139. Rutherford  |  January 27, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    OK, this thread has taken a wacky turn — Do I understand that Tigre and Tex (by proxy) would prefer that Obama be assassinated so Biden could be POTUS? And then James pipes in that Biden might have been better?

    Oh … and please don’t tell me that “something were to happen” meant that Obama fell down the stairs of Air Force 1 and suffered a fatal head injury.

    WTF are you boys smoking this morning????

    As for Jan Brewer, I wish Obama had bitten her f*cking finger off.

    OK, time for some levity … go to G’s latest post, not for the post itself which was lame, but for my zinger in the comments section which was DA BOMB! :-) http://an800lbgorilla.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/terms-of-reference/

  • 140. Rutherford  |  January 27, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    G, I threw some traffic your way with some self-promotion along the way. A real win-win. I call that diplomacy. :-)

  • 141. Rutherford  |  January 27, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    Let me help those gathered here understand the difference between Biden and Palin.

    Biden is dumb on the outside but smart on the inside.

    Palin is …. dumb.

  • 142. El Tigre  |  January 27, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    “Do I understand that Tigre and Tex (by proxy) would prefer that Obama be assassinated so Biden could be POTUS?”

    How about the simple proposition that Biden would make a better POTUS.

    Oh the humanity!!! You want Obama assassinated!! You hate him so much you want him dead and his children fatherless!!! :lol

    Give me a break.

  • 143. El Tigre  |  January 27, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    “Biden is dumb on the outside but smart on the inside.”

    And you are smart on the outside and dumb on the inside (by proxy). :lol:

  • 144. Rutherford  |  January 27, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    And you are smart on the outside and dumb on the inside (by proxy).

    That wasn’t funny until you threw the “by proxy” in there. :-)

  • 145. poolman  |  January 27, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    Brewer is dumb. Through and through. She’s an embarrassment. I can’t believe people voted her in after her campaign performance.

    That is what’s called all about voting party, otherwise she would have never have a chance.

  • 146. poolman  |  January 27, 2012 at 5:26 pm

  • 147. poolman  |  January 27, 2012 at 5:40 pm

  • 148. James  |  January 27, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    Obama is think- skinned as other encounters show. Jodi Kantor author of “The Obamas” wrote the same thing. I witnessed it here during our big flood.

    We weren’t there, but from what I have seen and heard, Obama started it, and Brewer stood up for herself. Hooray for Jan Brewer! Its your problem if she is dumb.

    I don”t want anything to happen to Obama, but I think Biden might do better than Obama. Biden as as “clean and articulate” as any politician in Washington DC.

    Sarah Palin began an obscure middle class nobody. Now, she is rich and famous. If she is dumb, we must be really stupid.

  • 149. Rutherford  |  January 27, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    Poolman I remember when that brain freeze first aired. Man was that uncomfortable to watch.

  • 150. Rutherford  |  January 27, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    If she is dumb, we must be really stupid.

    You said it, not I. :-)

  • 151. James  |  January 27, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    Yep, on two levels.

  • 152. Raji  |  January 27, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    WTF are you boys smoking this morning????

    Whoops, sorry Rutherford I think I got that one started :lol:

  • 153. Raji  |  January 27, 2012 at 10:06 pm

    Rutherford, at Gorilla’s: Good one

    Rimshot! More like a sting!

  • 154. Rutherford  |  January 28, 2012 at 2:28 am

    Thanks Raji. I must admit I was pretty satisfied with myself on that one. :-)

  • 155. PFesser  |  January 28, 2012 at 9:12 am

    “If she is dumb, we must be really stupid.”

    Intuitively obvious to the casual observer. And so true. The perfect example of the anti-intellectual movement in America today.

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