A Tale of Two Bigots

July 1, 2010 at 1:15 am 228 comments

In the immediate aftermath of the death of Senator Robert Byrd, the accusation was launched that liberals, including me, would not give Byrd’s life the scrutiny of, let’s say a Strom Thurmond. The notion was that a Democrat with a history of bigotry would get a sanitized obituary whereas a Republican would not. This lead me to do a very brief investigation into each man’s life story. With time at a premium, I had to rely on the most basic source of information about both men, namely Wikipedia. I understand this does not qualify for academic rigor but it is the best I can do for the time being.

It is simply impossible to know what really lies within a man’s heart and mind. We can only judge men by their words and their actions, mostly their actions.  Strom Thurmond and Robert Byrd present troubling studies in complexity. There were times in their lives when they said the most vile things imaginable. There were times in their lives that demonstrated moderation.

Both Thurmond and Byrd started out as strident segregationists. Thurmond did a better job of hiding this philosophy behind the cloak of “state’s rights”. In other words, the government cannot tell a state how to conduct its business and if a state wanted to keep blacks separate from whites, then by golly they had the right to do that. To his dying day, Thurmond was unapologetic about his politics using the state’s rights claim as his reasoning. However early quotes from these men show an obvious disdain for blacks:

In his 1948 campaign for President, Thurmond said, “I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there’s not enough troops in the army to force the Southern people to break down segregation and admit the nigra race into our theaters, into our swimming pools, into our homes, and into our churches.”

Similarly in 1944, while a leader of his local chapter of the Ku Klux Klan, Byrd wrote, “I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side … Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.”

In 1957, Thurmond filibustered the Civil Rights Act of that year for more than 24 hours. In 1964, Byrd filibustered for 14 hours against that year’s Civil Rights legislation.

However, both men had some redeeming episodes in their lives. Strom Thurmond won praise from the NAACP and the ACLU in the 1940’s as Governor of South Carolina when he actively pursued justice for the lynching of a black man. Late in his career he supported the Voting Rights Act and making Martin Luther King’s birthday a national holiday. Robert Byrd, unlike Thurmond, stayed with the Democratic party as it became more progressive and civil rights oriented, even though he remained a conservative Democrat through the 1960’s.  In 2004, the NAACP awarded Byrd with a 100% approval rating based on legislation for which he advocated.

With their political lives a mixed bag, we could look to their personal lives for more insight. Again, all we get is complexity. Strom Thurmond never renounced his segregationist views. He never apologized for any of his political platforms. He remained sure that he was right in defending state’s rights in keeping with the social norms of the day. In contrast, Byrd apologized, especially for his involvement with the KKK. In 2005 he said, “I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times … and I don’t mind apologizing over and over again. I can’t erase what happened.” Yet Byrd opposed the nominations of both Thurgood Marshall and Clarence Thomas, the former for his integrationist views and the latter for his arrogance. However in 1982, Byrd came to a racial epiphany of sorts when his teenage grandson died and it dawned on him that black people love their children as much as whites do. A bit troubling that it took Byrd until 1982 to fully figure that out.

Upon Thurmond’s death, we learned that he didn’t dislike all black people. He particularly liked a black maid with whom he had a “secret love child” in 1925. To his credit, he financially supported his daughter for the rest of his life. To his discredit, he never publicly acknowledged her. His daughter, Essie Mae Washington-Williams claimed that the secret was kept by mutual agreement and the financial assistance given to her was not hush money. What gives more insight into the man’s heart, the fact that he supported his daughter or the fact that he hid her?

I think anyone can objectively say that Robert Byrd made the better show of seeking redemption than did his colleague Strom Thurmond. How much of this show was for political expediency in a changing social climate, we can never know. It could be argued that Thurmond had more integrity, not changing his views with the popular winds of the day. Compounding the difficulty of analyzing these two men is the fact that all politicians are liars. So it is hard to discern how much the desire to get reelected shaped these men’s professed views.

When we try to arrive at a bottom line for Strom Thurmond and Robert Byrd, one Republican, one Democrat, it is best to think about what we might tell our own children. The lesson for our children, as I see it, is that bigotry is a terrible stain that years of good deeds and apologies cannot completely erase. Our only window into these men’s souls were their words and actions and we know for certain that at one time each of them evidenced an illogical hatred for those different from them. Whenever we are tempted to discriminate against another for purely superficial reasons, we should stop and think about whether we want our obituaries to bear the stains of those of Thurmond and Byrd.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

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What Goes Around Comes Around GOP: Ignore Frum at Your Own Peril

228 Comments Add your own

  • 1. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 4:34 am

    Good post R.

  • 2. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 4:55 am

    Ahhh, duh…

    Former Justice Department Lawyer Accuses Holder of Dropping New Black Panther Case for Racial Reasons

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/30/justice-dept-lawyer-accuses-holder-dropping-new-black-panther-case-political/

  • 3. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:03 am

    We’ve spoken of Obama’s failure to accept foreign aid in the Deepwater spill. IBD has been so kind as to make a pretty table for us showing who and what was offered, when, and its current status. http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/PhotoPopup.aspx?path=ISSb0701_2100630.png&docId=539049&caption=

    We rest our case…

  • 4. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:05 am

    The accompanying article. The more I read, the worse it gets for you…

    http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/539049/201006301859/Delayed-Response.aspx

  • 5. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 6:10 am

    Since you found it worth while to post on, I’d thought I’d add a little context to the post. After all, if we’re going to discuss the racist position of a couple of political actors, it is certainly worth while to put their parties into perspective.

    You don’t mention it, but I will, it is clear that when viewed in the context of time vis a vis the positions and standing of their respective parties, Thurmond was clearly an anomoly to the GOP (he was in fact a Dem before) whereas Byrd was par for the course for the Dems. They both, but especially Byrd, represent the legacy of the Dem party and should always be a reminder for what it has indeed stood for.

    The True History of the Democratic Racist Party
    “Black History Month” has been observed for 29 years, yet many blacks know little to nothing about the parties’ respective roles in advancing or hindering the civil rights of blacks. How many blacks know that following the Civil War, 23 blacks — 13 of them ex-slaves — were elected to Congress, all as Republicans? The first black Democrat was not elected to Congress until 1935, from the state of Illinois. The first black congressional Democrat from a Southern state was not elected until 1973.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1523692/posts

    The Racist History of the Democratic Party
    Most people are either a Democrat by design, or a Democrat by deception. That is either they were well aware the racist history of the Democrat Party and still chose to be Democrat, or they were deceived into thinking that the Democratic Party is a party that sincerely cared about Black people.

    http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/3554.html

    The Democratic Party’s Legacy of Racism
    It’s about time that Republicans quit pussy-footing around on the issue of race. They need to point out that in both principle and practice, the Republican Party has a far better record than the Democrats on race. Even more importantly, they need to stress that on the issues that most affect African-Americans today, the Democratic position represents racism of the most offensive sort—a patronizing racism that denigrates Blacks every bit as badly as the old racism of Jim Crow and segregation.

    http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/oped/owens/02/racism.html

  • 6. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 9:36 am

    “Byrd came to a racial epiphany of sorts when his teenage grandson died and it dawned on him that black people love their children as much as whites do”-Rutherford

    Kind of ironic, as one of the conversations I hear around these parts is that black people don’t love their childeren like everyone else.

    Once a week on the local news, a black dad or mom is interviewed, standing in the street corner, their son shot dead only a few hours ago. They are clearly bummed, I guess. But they just don’t appear devastated. In fact, their reaction is more akin to mine when I put my dog down yesterday.

    I don’t point this out as some kind of truth. I do it more so that liberals understand where some whites are coming from. Think about it, since I was born, I have seen black people appear on the evening news not giving much of a damn for their lost son on a weekly basis. I’m lucky. I’m educated. Traveled a bit. Worked with all kinds of people. What if I didn’t?

  • 7. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 9:49 am

    Rutherford, another thoughtful and well-written post.

    I have made reference before to this link. It shows the presidential election results of 2008 by county, in comparison to 2004. In other words, who voted for the Democrat (Kerry) in 2004, but for McCain in 2008. And the reverse: Who voted for the Republican (Bush) in 2004, but for Obama in 2008.

    An interesting pattern emerges. The parts of the country that swung MORE Republican stretch from southern West Virginia to through the mountains of eastern Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, and southern Oklahoma. Most of the rest of the country voted more Democratic.

    I bring this up to point out that Robert Byrd’s epiphany on the subject of race seems to me not to have been politically calculated. I suspect that in West Virginia his conversion was not especially popular.

    Sen. Thurmond remained popular to the end with his major constituency (white Republicans). Like the rest of the Dixiecrats and other racists to whom the Ape refers in comment #5, Thurmond found a much more comfortable home for his unrepentant “states’ rights” views among present-day Republicans

  • 8. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 9:51 am

    the Republican Party has a far better record than the Democrats on race.

    Overwhelmingly, black voters disagree.

    Are you saying that blacks are too ignorant to know what is good for them?

  • 10. El Tigre  |  July 1, 2010 at 9:53 am

    DR, I am confident that what you see is responses that are more culturally influenced expressions of grief and nothing more. Some based on expectations of mortality based on living conditions too. What you describe is not so different from what I observed in white ghettos.

    But Rutherford, you never really did not directly address the question begged initially: “Will a Democrat with a history of bigotry get a sanitized obituary whereas a Republican would not?” I am curious about your thoughts on this.

  • 11. El Tigre  |  July 1, 2010 at 9:55 am

    Sorry for the typos — trying to work and slack at the same time.

  • 12. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 9:57 am

    El Tigre, yeah agree. I have seen some of the same behavior from whites too.

  • 13. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 9:58 am

    Rutherford said:

    However in 1982, Byrd came to a racial epiphany of sorts when his teenage grandson died and it dawned on him that black people love their children as much as whites do. A bit troubling that it took Byrd until 1982 to fully figure that out.

    Rabbit said:

    I have seen black people appear on the evening news not giving much of a damn for their lost son…

    We have mindless gang shootings of young black men in Oklahoma too. I have never seen what the Rabbit says that he sees. I believe that he is badly misreading what he sees. Scumbag “journalists” who stick a camera and a microphone into the face of a grieving parent don’t capture anything real – only something that their editor hopes will boost ratings for the evening “crime, weather and sports.”

    Rabbit – my sincere sympathies on the loss of your dog. I love my dog, and I can only imagine what I will feel like when her time comes.

  • 14. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:03 am

    I believe this: Most people are either a Democrat by design, or a Democrat by deception. That is either they were well aware the racist history of the Democrat Party and still chose to be Democrat, or they were deceived into thinking that the Democratic Party is a party that sincerely cared about Black people.

    If the opposite were true, then why aren’t the inner city communities, overwhelmingly controlled by dems for decades, successful?

  • 15. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:03 am

    Tiger, I don’t think that Byrd got a sanitized obit at all – not even in the so-called “liberal” media like NPR.

    Do you?

    Just look at comment #5 to see how enthusiastically the “conservative” media were to jump all over Byrd’s racist past.

  • 16. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:07 am

    “I have never seen what the Rabbit says that he sees.”

    LOL. Dude…it’s not what the Rabbit sees. Everyone sees this. It’s a clichee. What world do you live in?

  • 17. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:09 am

    Kevin Phillips on the Republican “Southern Strategy,” 1970:

    From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don’t need any more than that… but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That’s where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

    Ape, no one but you cares about what Democrats and Republicans were like in 1910.

    It’s 2010 now.

  • 18. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:12 am

    Rabbit I live in the same world as Rutherford, who said “It dawned on him (Byrd) that black people love their children as much as whites do. A bit troubling that it took Byrd until 1982 to fully figure that out.

    Some of us STILL haven’t figured that out.

  • 19. El Tigre  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:13 am

    G-chin, I don’t know yet. But I’m focused on what the MSM (liberal) media does, not the “conservative.” Liberal media gives a pass to dems on everything. As a case in point, look at the coverage of Obama’s handling of Afghanistan and the death toll for June which just matched the worst months in Iraq under Bush.

  • 20. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:15 am

    #15, chin, those articles were written in 2005, 2004 and 2002 respectively. Once again, you demonstrate how full of shit you are.

    Fine then, explain why areas like Detroit- heavily Dem and labor for decades is failing.

    “the Democratic position represents racism of the most offensive sort—a patronizing racism that denigrates Blacks every bit as badly as the old racism of Jim Crow and segregation”

    Every bit of this is dead on accurate.

  • 21. El Tigre  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:15 am

    Watching the Ted Kennedy made my stomach turn. Growing up in Boston, I had to suffer through the false light placed on that damn family.

  • 22. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:19 am

    Liberal media gives a pass to dems on everything.

    “Everything” except Byrd’s racist past?

    Dude, the “media” doesn’t consist of only three networks any more. Conservative media is all over cable and radio, and so-called “liberal” newspapers are dying. To the extent that the WaPo used to be “liberal,” it ain’t so any more.

    If there ever was a “liberal bias” in media (a myth perpetrated by people for whom reality has a liberal bias), there are so many different voices in the media marketplace now that you can’t blame bad news on the “librul media” any more.

    Not that you ever really could. And no matter how much you want to – and try to.

  • 23. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:20 am

    The thing about greychin is exactly what bothers me about liberals. I was only talking about perceptions. The lack of emotion from the father of a slain gangster is a pop culture clichee.

    Secondly, you are so uptight about towing the PC line that you actually consistently stifle any conversation on race.

    I clearly pointed out a stereotype. I also pointed out how you can’t blame it’s existence if the 5 o’clock news was one’s only liaison to the black community.

    The irony was that people have the opposite reaction of Byrd’s epiphany in my hometown. It’s the kind of thing discussed at Thanksgiving dinner. “Why don’t “they” care about their kids”? A relevant question.

    But they you are greychin, all full of your chivalry for the black people you make damn sure you live nowhere near.

  • 24. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:21 am

    Oh, by the by, since its clear you’re not reading them before you denounce them (oh so Holder of you), the below piece was written by a black man…

    2010, and you on the left would love to ignore that history. You’ve made it your goal to shift the reality that it is in fact the GOP that is fundamentally racist, which is demonstrably false. Every major piece of legislation that has been geared at equality for the black community have been objected to by Dems.

    You see, you don’t want that to get out, you need that ignorance because heaven forbid that history became clear and understood by all.

    The Racist History of the Democratic Party
    Most people are either a Democrat by design, or a Democrat by deception. That is either they were well aware the racist history of the Democrat Party and still chose to be Democrat, or they were deceived into thinking that the Democratic Party is a party that sincerely cared about Black people.

    http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/3554.html

  • 25. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:23 am

    By the way greychin. I’m with you. My main goal in life is to get as far away from a back urban area as humanly possible. So, I am being a little bit of a hypocrite with my barbs about your chosen white Lilly haven.

  • 26. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:24 am

    “the Democratic position represents racism of the most offensive sort—a patronizing racism that denigrates Blacks every bit as badly as the old racism of Jim Crow and segregation”

    As I have asked before, isn’t it even more denigrating to blacks to assert that they are too gullible and stupid to recognize patronization? They still vote overwhelmingly Democratic.

    If you believe that Detroit’s economic problems are the the fault of local Detroit voters, and not the collapse of Detroit’s major employment base (the auto industry) is , then it’s beyond hope to have an intelligent conversation with you.

  • 27. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:29 am

    Who gives a shit about denigrating people if it’s the truth. Yes, black voting patterns consistently prove they don’t recognizise patronization.

    Dude…You’re commentary is so historically dead wrong about Detroit!

    Detroit was doomed becuase of white flight! This had nothing to do with the auto industry other then the pay was so fucking good crackers working the line could buy a nice suburban house with a pool.

  • 28. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:34 am

    D.R.,

    Great link on the financial crisis – let Graychin justify all of that, and further let him justify who is now appointed calling the shots. Graychin’s lying and deception is a microcosm of what goes on in Washington, Graychin just doesn’t have the stroke the big boys do – but he’s just as corrupt personally. I guarantee in real life, he’s dishonest as hell.

    We are finding out more and more whose real hands were dirty through the 2000s and Larry Summers, Goldman Sachs, Robert Rubin (the former greatest treasurer ever, until we found out he was a crook), Fannie, Freddie, and a laundry list of Congressional Dims like Dodd, Weiner and Frank were thieves and benefactors.

    Good find.

  • 29. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:38 am

    If you believe that Detroit’s economic problems are the the fault of local Detroit voters, and not the collapse of Detroit’s major employment base (the auto industry) is , then it’s beyond hope to have an intelligent conversation with you.

    This is so cravenly a lie, it’s hardly even worth answering.

    Hey Gray, if you really want to know the truth, Detroit was going downhill quickly in the 70s and definitely the 80s, even when GM, Ford and Chrysler were flying high.

    Detroit was dead long before the automotive industry tanked pal. You’re lying through your teeth again. Either that, or your dumber than shit.

  • 30. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:39 am

    your/you’re

  • 31. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:43 am

    Rutherford,

    One of your better articles, but you couldn’t completely leave well enough alone without being jaded by party politics.

    Yet Byrd opposed the nominations of both Thurgood Marshall and Clarence Thomas, the former for his integrationist views and the latter for his arrogance.

    His arrogance? :lol: What a load! Byrd was against Thomas, because even then Byrd was a stupid, old racist who wasn’t good for anything but bringing bacon back to his home district. He was a joke then, and a joke the day he died. Bryd was Murtha without the medal pinned to his chest, and was always good for following the lead of the party period.

  • 32. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:45 am

    Fine, show an example of any major urban community, dominated by minorities and run overwhelmingly by Dems is thriving.

  • 33. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:47 am

    Byrd was Murtha? Murtha could only dream of bringing the loads of pork that Byrd did. Byrd was without equal…

  • 34. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:47 am

    And Rutherford? Let’s never forget this beauty but a few years ago – and this ain’t 1964. :lol:

  • 35. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:52 am

    “Hey Gray, if you really want to know the truth, Detroit was going downhill quickly in the 70s and definitely the 80s, even when GM, Ford and Chrysler were flying high.”-Tex

    He’s probably not really lying. Just totally talking out of his ass from what he thinks he knows about Detroit from a few snippets he saw on TV.

    He’s confusing the suburbs with Detroit. He’s also got the time line of events totally wrong.

    Sure, our suburbs now are fucked. And that does connect directly to manufacturing (plus the shit storm we are all going through).

    Detroit has been dead for 40 years.

  • 36. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:07 am

    Gorilla,

    Fine, show an example of any major urban community, dominated by minorities and run overwhelmingly by Dems is thriving.

    There isn’t one – and that’s the big pink elephant in the room that men like Graychin and Hippie want you to ignore. The next city to blow will be Oakland, CA, probably this week.

    Ironically, Rutherford is far more honest about the real facts concerning race relations than our liberal white faced clan across the country, and on this board.

    About race, most white liberals are as phony as the day is long. It’s simply a hammer in the tool box used as a tool for pandering and propaganda to capture the vote. Their behavior is disgraceful and the most insidious form of racism; the chains of no expectation.

    Eric Holder is a disgrace. He’s corrupt, he’s racist, and he is unqualified. He deserves to be removed as unfit for office. But the one thing Holder was slammed on that I agreed with when he said it – we are a nation of cowards concerning race – especially the white race. Most Republicans because they are terrified of being called racists and too timid to be called names; most Democrats because the use it as a weapon to compartmentalize and create strife.

    I predict with the fall of Obama, the ugly head of racism will rear its ugly head soon again. If Obama fails, and I believe the writing on the wall, racial tensions are imminent like not seen since the 60s.

  • 37. El Tigre  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:08 am

    “If there ever was a “liberal bias” in media (a myth perpetrated by people for whom reality has a liberal bias), there are so many different voices in the media marketplace now that you can’t blame bad news on the “librul media” any more.”

    What load of crap G-chin. You’re the one that responded to concept that the “liberal media” would cleanse the obit by pointing to the “conservative media’s” treatment of him. Dissembling and shifting the argument again I see.

  • 38. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:13 am

    This is from a black blogger in Chicago.

    My problem with BET Uncut and other members of the “Neo-All White Jury” is that the are focused more on protecting Obama and singing the praise of his legislative exploits – with the assistance of a monopoly Democratic majority in both houses of Congress than they care to go back to the places within the Black community to see how all of this “hope and change” is fairing.

    When I look I get the sense that the present economic peril that is present within our community – our 16% unemployment rate – that our people are being used for the sake of a grand protection racket. In one of the biggest “let them eat cake” scams in this nation’s history we Black folks are asked to look proudly at the “Obama Commemorative Plate” on our mantle and over look the fact that many of us have only table scraps to eat from this plate. These operatives deemphasize the fact that the same machine that is in the White House and US Congress also control the key institutions where the highest concentrations of Black people live – just as they have appointed them into power with their vote.

    http://withintheblackcommunity.blogspot.com/

  • 39. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:15 am

    Gorilla, thank you for your thoughts on the article. You are right about the 1950’s nature of the Dem and GOP. While it is buried in the article, I do mention Thurmond moving from Dem to Republican:

    Robert Byrd, unlike Thurmond, stayed with the Democratic party as it became more progressive and civil rights oriented …

    The question remains was it a sign of Byrd’s willingness to change his views that he did not abandon the Democratic party after the Nixon Southern Strategy? Thurmond switched parties in 1964 even before the Democratic party started to really change its stripes.

  • 40. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:26 am

    But Rutherford, you never really did not directly address the question begged initially: “Will a Democrat with a history of bigotry get a sanitized obituary whereas a Republican would not?” I am curious about your thoughts on this.

    First Tigre, I agree with your answer to Rabbit. I believe the grief reaction Rabbit witnesses on TV every night is based on a population in despair who almost expects to lose their children to gang violence, etc. It is NOT proof that blacks love their children less than whites. I do hope Rabbit does not seriously think that.

    As for your question … I’ve seen the media give a KKK quickie on Byrd and then move on. Honestly, Thurmond’s death was not on my radar at the time but I don’t recall his being lauded. Byrd on the other hand has been granted sainthood by Chris Matthews and eulogized by Joe Biden in ways that you would never know what a hateful SOB he once was.

    So, I guess Byrd is getting better press post mortem. One point in defense though …. at least according to the bio I read, Byrd was a better legislator than Thurmond was. On this one may want to take Wikipedia with a grain of salt. If anyone here can corroborate this or refute it, be my guest.

  • 41. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:29 am

    I would say Thurmond was the one being politically expedient. He likely made the switch more along the lines of states rights and smaller government vice the civil rights angle.

    I’m sure he didn’t go to many GOP dinner parties after he switched…

  • 42. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:35 am

    Rutherford, I believe you are right. Parents are parents, no matter the color. But culture does matter.

    based on a population in despair who almost expects to lose their children to gang violence, etc. It is NOT proof that blacks love their children less than whites

    I believe the reaction you see is based on hopelessness, resignation, and some ignorance. This is the world they know and what they’ve become accustomed to expecting.

    A reaction of a black mother in a ghetto is little different than a reaction I see from poor, white mother in a white ghetto of sorts. One is urban, the a trailer park. But the reactions are almost identical. God made all men – by definition inside each of our hearts, we all experience the same emotions, the same grief, unless one’s heart is so hardened that you’ve lost your humanity.

  • 43. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:40 am

    If you believe that Detroit’s economic problems are the the fault of local Detroit voters, and not the collapse of Detroit’s major employment base (the auto industry) is , then it’s beyond hope to have an intelligent conversation with you.

    You don’t know when to quit, do you?

    Detroits decline began shortly after the riots in the late sixties, which kicked off the white flight to the surrounding suburbs. The election and continual reelection of Coleman “Sticky Fingers” Young accellerated the phenomenon, and made the collapse come that much sooner.

    You didn’t grow up in the state, and you didn’t live there. You didn’t watch the evening news when people were getting fed up with the decline of a once-great city, and when some, like channel 7 anchor Bill Bonds were openly challenging Mayor Young to fist fights on the evening broadcast.

    The decline of the auto industry didn’t precipitate the implosion of Detroit and the surroundig metropolitan area. It trailed it. A high tax, high spending poltical philosophy coupled with an increasigly small tax base is what finally carried Detrioit into a third-world status.

  • 44. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:42 am

    So, I guess Byrd is getting better press post mortem.” — R

    R, it boils down to one thing, and one thing only: Robert Byrd, (D) W. VA

  • 45. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:45 am

    Chin, as we’ve demonstrated, it is beyond hope to have an intelligent conversation with you

  • 46. textaylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:53 am

    When I invited Chin over, I had two purposes in mind. One is payback for playing blog moderator and lying on his own board; the other was to liven up this board. I never thought he’d follow, once he found out a liberal blog dominated by Conservatives. Tip of the cap for staying Graychin – I didn’t think you had it in you.

    But Graychin. Though you’re reasonably well spoken, the spelling correct, the grammar thorough and complete, you either are one of the world’s most sheltered people, dishonest people, or dumbest people, no matter how educated and financially successful you may be.

    I frankly have been shocked how insipid your responses, how baseless your charges, how trivial and boiler plated your responses are, and how shallow your thoughts.

    And I did not realize that until you came to this board.

  • 47. an800lbgorilla  |  July 1, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    I have stolen this from BiW’s place, because really, this should be everywhere…

  • 48. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    BIC & Gorilla,

    Beautiful… :smile:

    But I have never witnessed anything more arrogant, any member of Congress more patronizing than this:

  • 49. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    As a case in point, look at the coverage of Obama’s handling of Afghanistan and the death toll for June which just matched the worst months in Iraq under Bush.

    I am amazed that the Petraeus hearings did not become a forum for questioning the Afghanistan strategy.

    Tigre, I don’t know if the MSM is giving Obama a free pass on the war or whether, sadly, a bunch of dead soldiers just doesn’t move the public like unemployment and contaminated gulf waters do.

    As I tweeted earlier today, if you want to see active interest in this war from the average guy, reinstate the draft.

  • 50. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    If you can read this and not laugh out loud, then you have no sense of humor. One of the best complaints about service I’ve ever read:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/4344890/Virgin-the-worlds-best-passenger-complaint-letter.html

  • 51. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    I’ll try and explain how this felt. Imagine being a twelve year old boy Richard. Now imagine it’s Christmas morning and you’re sat their with your final present to open. It’s a big one, and you know what it is. It’s that Goodmans stereo you picked out the catalogue and wrote to Santa about.

    Only you open the present and it’s not in there. It’s your hamster Richard. It’s your hamster in the box and it’s not breathing. That’s how I felt when I peeled back the foil and saw this:

    ** GUFFAW **

  • 52. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    Detroit was doomed because of white flight!

    LOL the implication that as long as white people are around everything will just be hunky-dory is too much!!!

    HOWEVER! When my wife and I did some house hunting two years ago, we looked at Bloomfield, CT. We noticed that the real estate was absolutely beautiful but inexplicably cheap. We then started to notice lots of “black faces” in the town profiles. We also noticed a terribly rated education system.

    I called my buddy and got the scoop. Bloomfield started white and became a magnet for middle to upper middle class blacks.. The more blacks moved in, the more whites moved out. Then the “rabble” started moving in and the city deteriorated. Again, beautiful homes, but with a catch.

    So Rabbit, even though your “white flight” assessment really pisses me off, reality tells me there is an element of truth to it. I think what bothers me about your assessment is that it implies there are no dirt poor, crime ridden white neighborhoods. That is just plain false. And I’m not saying you actually SAID that …but the implication is there.

    Needless to say, we didn’t move to Bloomfield. I want my kid to have a good education.

    By the way … full disclosure … I have the only American black family in my neighborhood currently. There is an African family (I don’t recall from which country). I suspect we can have maybe two or three more black families move in, no matter how decent and hard working, before some of my white neighbors run for the hills. ;-) (It helps, unfortunately, that the only one in my family identifiably black is my daughter as I am very fair skinned and my wife is white. The neighbors who really know me know I’m black but I think they’re confused about it. LOL )

  • 53. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    Tex, most bigots find dignified blacks to be arrogant. So you can read that any way you want. I mentioned Marshall AND Thomas to show a disturbing trend in Byrd’s opposition to black appointees.

  • 54. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:05 pm

    I think what bothers me about your assessment is that it implies there are no dirt poor, crime ridden white neighborhoods. That is just plain false. And I’m not saying you actually SAID that …but the implication is there.

    1. You need have looked no farther than the West Side of Flint when I was growing up, R. I always considered it more dangerous than the predominantly black areas of North Flint.

    2. R, I can think of cities that I don’t automatically consider corrupt that have large, or even majority black populations. Detroit is not one of them. For better or worse, the white flight made it possible for Coleman Young and his cronies to come to power, and once he did, they started to suck the city dry.

  • 55. El Tigre  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    Rutherford, I think the concept of the draft makes some sense.

    I know why the dems don’t discuss the war — and so do you. They would choking to death on their own words and actions under Bush.

    The fact that I have to root around on the Internet to learn virtually anything about the progress of the war, let alone its objectives, costs, and strategy, rather than reading it on the the first or second page of nearly every major publication is most unsettling. What happened to all those arrogant douche bags at the NY Times this time? Looks to me like they’re too heavily invested in Obama to consider the subject because they know his handling of Afghanistan is problem.

    If you respond by saying this is Bush’s war and Bush’s fault, I will send Guy Faulkner to hunt you down and practice his brand of justice on you!

    It’s all about the free passes handed out to this administration that folks like G-chin deny exist.

  • 56. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    Tex, I didn’t forget about Byrd’s use of “white n*****” I made an editorial decision not to include it simply because that is just how much I loathe the word. I didn’t want it in my article.

    But yes, you are absolutely right. Byrd’s issues were deep seated regardless of how much he tried to progress.

    One could argue that Byrd’s comments were akin to the French Canadians calling themselves the n****s of Canada or John Lennon calling women the “n*****s of the world”.

  • 57. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    Tex, most bigots find dignified blacks to be arrogant. So you can read that any way you want. I mentioned Marshall AND Thomas to show a disturbing trend in Byrd’s opposition to black appointees.

    That is not how your comment reads. It reads like a cheap shot at Thomas, and there’s some history behind that here.

    I never have understood the intense black hatred toward Thomas. Show me a more dignified black in America who crawled out of the debts of despair and arose to the highest positions of power? Thomas had a far rougher upbringing than Obama did.

    Thomas is one of the men I most admire in America. He’s a living testimony to perseverance, fighting spirit and wit. I’d be honored to call him friend and mentor. Makes no sense.

  • 58. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    I’m sure he didn’t go to many GOP dinner parties after he switched…

    I’m not so sure. Thurmond was mediocre at best until he got buddy buddy with Richard Nixon and that propelled him to greater heights. I believe he did quite well with the GOP establishment, post-Southern-Strategy.

  • 59. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    Tigre, where I differ with you is that under Obama the REASON for our being in Afghanistan IS unclear … the mission accomplished target ambiguous. So how could you see articles about our progress in the war? How do we measure progress?

    Plus I still say newspapers, TV and radio want to buy eyeballs. The number of war dead becomes numbing. It’s not sexy. That may sound heartless to you but we are in an inpatient consumer society that wants their immediate adrenalin fix. Watching a tea party rally or a dead dolphin covered with oil keeps the eyeballs glued.

  • 60. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    Rutherford, concerning your choice not to use Byrd’s white “nigger” remark, it was no criticism of you and its absence didn’t detract from a heart felt and good post. I’m sure you found it far more offensive than I did – I simply found the reference stupid and embarrassing, as if somehow you can preface ethnic, derogatory slang with “white”, and it becomes perfectly acceptable conversation. It’s about akin to using the word pretty in front of c***, and it becomes language to use in front of mixed company.

    Simply a reminder of how demented Byrd’s mind was. He was a national embarrassment to many, me included, as so many of our politicians are.

    I am truthfully glad these old racists are dying off. Good riddance. As a white man, I say their legacy is and should be one of disgrace and disgust – and that includes George Wallace and the rest of them. I would like to think if I hadn’t been but a small boy, my voice would be loud and clear about the sin of racism. There is no excuse for the way blacks were treated in the South. Anybody calling themselves Christian and lending consent to what happened is fooling themselves, and no different than Fred Phelps operating under the banner of the Christian faith. Trust me – God does not see color and one is not superior to the other.

    As much crap as I give you about a multitude of issues, there is no doubt I also have a streak of hidden admiration for some of your personal attributes or I wouldn’t be here. :wink:

  • 61. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    Tex … I’ve seen one interview of Thomas (on 60 Minutes) that showed him to be a very angry and bitter black man. For all his success he is still racially very angry. He won’t even display his Yale Law diploma because he found many people assumed he was an affirmative action candidate.

    He has problems dude that go way beyond pubic hair on a coke can. ;-)

  • 62. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    One could argue that Byrd’s comments were akin to the French Canadians calling themselves the n****s of Canada or

    Call them “habs” or “habitants” (hab-ee-tants).

    They just love that. ;-)

  • 63. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    Question: If I predict today that the sun will rise tomorrow in the west, can I then say it’s rise in the east was “unexpected“?

  • 64. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    LOL Clever Huck …. very clever.

  • 65. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    “Tigre, I don’t know if the MSM is giving Obama a free pass on the war or whether, sadly, a bunch of dead soldiers just doesn’t move the public like unemployment and contaminated gulf waters do.”

    Interesting how America’s acclimation to war dead seemed to instantly change with administrations.

  • 66. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    Rutherford,

    Clarence Thomas has every right to be angry. Thurgood Marshall could have been defined as angry too from what I’ve read about him.

    Thomas was verbally assaulted by scum like Kennedy and Biden – men not worthy to wipe the sweat off his balls; high tech lynching that you excused out of partisan politic. It should be more than obvious that Anita Hill was dragged out of the closet and the charges at best hearsay. Both she and Thomas were used. Hill followed Thomas not once, but twice to jobs. Women don’t follow sexual harassers or threatening men from job to job and you know it.

    At best even if true, Thomas was crass. I’ll bet as men, you and I have been crass in front of women. The entire atmosphere was poison and put in Thomas’ position, I’d be damn angry too. To achieve what he had achieved, to face the kind of racism and poverty he had to overcome, and then to be assaulted by uppity trust fund assholes whose only real achievement was to be born right? You think about how you would feel if I threw you up in front of an all white jury full of drunks, skirt chasers, and punks and assaulted your integrity and character for all the world to see. I don’t care how you spin it, that is sheer evil.

    I’ve been a fan of Thomas’ for years and I can tell you I have also seen him in interviews where he is quite charming, and so is his white wife. I attended a speech of his not too long after I received my MBA on invite. The man is well spoken, deep, and intellectual. The speech was dynamite and in front of an open forum of young, dreamy punks like me that thought they understood the world because they were “educated” with some superficial sophistication of meaningless know how.

    Thomas let us know just how dumb and naive we were, yet no one was offended. Thomas received a standing ovation from Republican and Democrat alike.

  • 67. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    “Tex … I’ve seen one interview of Thomas (on 60 Minutes) that showed him to be a very angry and bitter black man. For all his success he is still racially very angry. He won’t even display his Yale Law diploma because he found many people assumed he was an affirmative action candidate.”

    Is Barack Obama an angry and bitter black man? Is he racially angry like the preacher he listened to for 20 years? Is that why he won’t display his academic laurals?

  • 68. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    Interesting how America’s THE LEFT’s acclimation to war dead seemed to instantly change with administrations.

    Yes, it is. Double the war dead in Afghanistan and nary a peep from the “patriots.”

  • 69. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 1:56 pm

    Is Barack Obama an angry and bitter black man? Is he racially angry like the preacher he listened to for 20 years? Is that why he won’t display his academic laurals?

    Interesting question and still to be determined in my book. One thing is for sure. The men that raised him, that taught him, that influenced his life to the greatest degree most definitely were and still are.

    If Obama is not an angry black man, then he was able to overcome the many obstacles of what he was taught.

  • 70. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    Off-topic (not that it matters here), but…

    Who am I?

    I signed a bill that gave amnesty to illegal immigrants. I grew the size of the federal government and the budget, added a whole new cabinet level agency and added tens of thousands of government workers to the federal payroll.

    I tripled the deficit. I bailed out and expanded social security with a big tax increase. I raised corporate taxes by hundreds of billions of dollars. I raised taxes on gasoline.

    In fact, I signed into law the largest tax increase in history. I supported federal handgun controls. And I called for a world without nuclear weapons.

    Who am I? And would you support me if I ran for another term as president?

  • 71. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:04 pm

    Which one of you political geniuses was touting the virtues of John Boehner a few threads ago? Killing an ant with a nuclear bomb! Oh that’s classic!

  • 72. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    What’s wrong with angry and bitter black men?

    There are angry and bitter white men on my teevee every Sunday morning, and every night during the week. But nobody worries about angry and bitter white men.

    Only about angry and bitter black men.

  • 73. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    He won’t even display his Yale Law diploma because he found many people assumed he was an affirmative action candidate.”

    I’m paying too much for my law degrees not to display them. And I encountered a very angry black woman who was also a student there when I was earning the J.D. She was smart enough to be there, but her personality left a lot to be desired, and actualy contributed to some mocking that never whould have occured without the obvious redwood on her shoulder.

    No one at my school would have been considered an AA candidate. Not with the make up of our classes. The only criteria that mattered was whether you could keep up. If you couldn’t, you were gone in a few semesters.

  • 74. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:09 pm

    If you haven’t guessed who I am @ #70 yet, here are some hints:

    I was a governor before I was president. While governor, I increased State spending, raised State taxes, helped create the nation’s first state-based emissions standards, signed an abortion-rights bill, and expanded the nation’s largest state-based Medicaid program (socialized medicine).

    Have you guessed who I am yet?

  • 75. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    Greychin, I saw right though your transparent bait and knew it was Ronaldus Maximus.

    The difference between Ronaldus Maximus and The First post racial President, is that Ronalus Maximus did not deliberately make the country weaker while calling for peace, did not cozy up to people would like nothing more than to see us gone, did not give long-time allies the finger, and did not go around the world apologizing for America’s “sins” to people who are owed no apology. In short, he didn’t have the dislike for this country that the current President has displayed on multiple occaissions, and he didn’t love this country so much that he could not wait to “fundamentally change it.” Ronaldus also understood, regardless of some of the things you call out (however mischaracterized they may be), that “Government is not the solution to our problems, government is the problem.” The current occupant cannot wait to drive American industries out of business, make basic energy prohibitively expensive, and put government in the room with me and my doctor, while steadfastly maintaining that a right of privacy should keep government out of the room if a preganant woman is discussing killing her child with the very same doctor.

  • 76. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    Sure Graychin, it’s not hard to figure out.

    Yet,there is only one problem with your synopsis – Congress controls the nation’s purse strings. For some reason, you have yet to grasp that simple fact.

    Prop 13 more than offset any taxes for his home state. And some of these Media Matter talking points that you’ve copied here have already been refuted.

  • 77. El Tigre  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    “But nobody worries about angry and bitter white men.”

    Oh really now. Who’d have thunk it reading your own damn blog and comments here G-chin?

  • 78. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    Let us consider the only real statistic determining matters of popularity and success concerning Reagan’s legacy – one that invariably Libs try to attack without success. They like to compare President Bongo’s current poll numbers to Ronald Reagan. But there is the one immutable truth that can’t be spun, weaved, misconstrued, or cooked because the election was exactly four years after Reagan’s taking office.

    So what did the American public think of Ronald Reagan after four years?

    The 1984 Presidential Election

    Nominee Ronald Reagan Walter Mondale
    Party Republican Democratic
    Home state California Minnesota
    Running mate George H. W. Bush Geraldine Ferraro
    Electoral vote 525 13
    States carried 49 1 + DC
    Popular vote 54,455,472 37,577,352
    Percentage 58.8% 40.6%

    Reagan came within less than 3800 votes of winning all fifty states. Reagan’s 525 electoral votes (out of 538) is the highest total ever received by a presidential candidate. :smile:

    To put this is a vernacular that even the dimmest of progressive minds can understand, that is what is called an ass kicking.

    That is the legacy of Ronald Reagan.

  • 79. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    “LOL the implication that as long as white people are around everything will just be hunky-dory is too much!!!”

    White flight isn’t even a controversial or charged up term here in Michigan. Everyone refers to it here, black and white.

    Evey thing BiW said is 99% correct.

    Anybody dropping the epic Bill Bonds vs Colman Young battle knows their shit. BiW, do you remember when Bill Bonds signed on the evening news drunk as hell and offered to box Colman Young in a 3 round charity match? I think that was his last day on the job.

    The 1% where BiW is wrong?

    His statement about North Flint. I’m not from Flint, but there is no fucking way the white area was/is worse then the black area. No way, man. Black Flint is fucked up! Not as bad as Saginaw…but close!

    That being said, I don’t know shit about Flint and I’m talking out of my ass.

  • 80. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    Rabbit, the last time I lived in the Flint area was in 1994. It was still bad times, but wonderful in comparison to now.

    My remaining years in Michigan were spent first in Battle Creek, then Lansing until August 2001.

    When I went back for Dad’s funeral in 2005, I couldn’t believe how much worse things had gotten in the Flint area, so you if have been there anytime in the last decade, your take is probably correct.

  • 81. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    BiW, do you remember when Bill Bonds signed on the evening news drunk as hell and offered to box Colman Young in a 3 round charity match?

    I do. I wish I could find the clip on youtube. They don’t have it, but they do have some of his other fine moments on there.

    My grandpa used to think he was insane.

  • 82. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    A famous Bill Bonds moment:

  • 83. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    Yeah you’re right…I only was talking the last couple of years.

    BiW, you ever hear of Inkster, Mi?

  • 84. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    lol……BiW……that’s GREAT! I’ve never seen that!

  • 85. El Tigre  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    Rutherford, puhhleeeze!

    “[W]here I differ with you is that under Obama the REASON for our being in Afghanistan IS unclear … the mission accomplished target ambiguous. So how could you see articles about our progress in the war? How do we measure progress?”

    Honestly, “how do we measure progress?” How about the same way it was done under Bush — body count.

    Anyway, excellent questions. Why aren’t they being asked?

  • 86. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    The Current Legacy of Barack Obama – huge majority in Senate and House

    Stocks began the third quarter with more selling after disappointing reports on jobs, housing and manufacturing deepened concerns about the economy.

    Gulf Oil Day 73, Reporting on Oil Spill, Limits Persist on Media Access in the Gulf

    A federal program designed to help impoverished families heat and cool their homes wasted more than $100 million paying the electric bills of thousands of applicants who were dead, in prison or living in million-dollar mansions, according to a government investigation.

    Unemployment claims are up, home sales are plunging without government incentives and manufacturing growth is slowing. Meanwhile, 1.3 million people are without federal jobless benefits now that Congress adjourned for a weeklong Independence Day recess without passing an extension. That number could grow to 3.3 million by the end of the month if lawmakers can’t resolve the issue when they return.

    Pending home sales plunge record 30 percent

    Welfare recipients get $12,000 from strip club ATMs

    Small Business Owners Furious as ‘Tan Tax’ Begins

    Ahmadinejad Mocks Obama’s Nuclear Strategy

    That’s from one column, of one popular blog site, on one day. the list of bad news is almost endless, and I would be happy to list more, if required.

    Congratulations for all of you that cast your vote for “Yes We Can!”

  • 87. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    BiW, you ever hear of Inkster, Mi?

    Yup. My Grandparents lived in Clarkston, just north of Pontiac.

  • 88. El Tigre  |  July 1, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    And Obama still hasn’t given me a pony!

  • 89. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    And Obama still hasn’t given me a pony!

    LOL … keep digging through the sh*t and you’ll find it. :-D

  • 90. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    The latest from The Onion.

  • 91. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    The Onion?

    Reality is my parody, these days. Just tune in and crack up.

    Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

  • 92. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    oh crap….i thought it was the video, but it’s some you tube narcissist’s own video

  • 93. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    the younger generation kills me. I’m pretty sure we would beat our buddy’s ass if he deemed his self so special as to publicly air a video of himself lip-syncing a song.

  • 94. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    terrible pro-noun usage above

  • 95. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 3:34 pm

    I’m actually rooting for my 401B to go down to zero. Just for laughs.

  • 96. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    i need to get out of the house.

    wife gave me the ok.

    going to take batting practice and drink a few beers.

  • 97. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    this is my last post today

  • 98. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    James Madison, considered by many historians to be an atheist,

    I wonder who those historians are, and how they came to that conclusion.

  • 99. hippieprof  |  July 1, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    Rutherford – you need to put a “new thread” note at the bottom of your old threads so I know to move over….

    I haven’t read any of the 98 comments yet – I want to give my opinion before looking.

    I think you did a fine, balanced job on this. Good work.

    Now, I will go look at the comments, and will probably discover that other people don’t think you did.
    ;)

    — hp

  • 100. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Many atheist historians, Graychin and the Yellow Poodle Dawg. :smile:

    Boy, the Dawg disappeared after we caught him referring to Mr. Alfie as troll on his own blog. Like a bad penny though…

  • 101. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 4:39 pm

    Looks like Big Al “Bulbous” Gore and Slick shared more traits than a love of selling secrets to Communist China.

    i>“Quite aside from global warming, what about feminism? If the massage therapist’s story is true, we are looking at the same problem we saw with Clinton. There are politicians who give the appearance of caring about the equality of women. It’s a principle that, conceptually, is a necessary part of a political ideology they need to appear to hold. But maybe they don’t really believe it at all. What a dirty secret, thinking that women exist to serve you! . . . What makes a man treat a woman like that? Generally, I think it’s because he’s done things like that before, many times, and gotten away with it. We’re talking about an older man, with a big reputation and a lot to lose. Why would he proceed in such a crude fashion? I would guess that his sensibilities have numbed over the years, as women acceded to his moves. The moves became less and less elaborate.”

    Very interesting. Wonder what Tipper knows that the rest of the world doesn’t?

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/tipper_al_cover_big_assets_Dhe0Wi2jbjSxS7N7QOzgDN

  • 102. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 4:42 pm

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026649.php

    “She called me on the phone on Oct. 23, 2006. I remember the date because that’s my birthday. She was excited about the massage she had scheduled for that evening — she said it was with former Vice President Al Gore.

    “I was shocked when she called back and woke me around 4 a.m. that same night. When I picked up, she was in tears. She told me she was assaulted…Mr. Gore groped her and threw her down on the bed.

    “I was shocked and believed her right away. Molly’s never lied to me — she’s one of the most honest people I’ve ever met.”

    DNA evidence is such a wonderful thing…

    And to think this man was a few votes from the Presidency.

  • 103. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    Molly is a GOP plant. Just ask Rabbit …… he knows the skinny on this!!!

  • 104. graychin  |  July 1, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    “James Madison, considered by many historians to be an atheist…”

    I wonder who those historians are, and how they came to that conclusion.

    Don’t get your undergarments all in a bunch. That was an article from The Onion. :D

  • 105. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    I’ve noticed the Libs around here are meek as lambs, quiet as a church mouse, and nary a mention of PantherGate. :neutral:

    If there is a better representation of obstruction of justice and malfeasance from an administration, I have never witnessed it in my lifetime.

    If Barack Obama ordered that this case be dropped, that is textbook grounds for impeachment. If Eric Holder did so, that is grounds for indictment and prosecution.

    And why isn’t this the unbiased press that Hippie referenced yesterday as balanced, the same press that spent years hounding the Bush White House over a mostly fabricated “scandal” involving Valerie Plame, now completely unwilling to pursue the allegations?

  • 106. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:03 pm

    Even in the darkest of G.W. Bush days, I don’t remember a series of events in a number of weeks that came remotely close to appearing a curse upon America. Hopefully, its a divine sign your days are numbered Libs.

    If American voters have any sense at all, this November won’t simply be a rout. It will be an annihilation.

  • 107. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:09 pm

    BIC,

    I know you enjoy Andrew Klavan like I do. Have you seen this? :twisted:

    http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=80&load=3826

    You’ll need to register if you haven’t to get access.

    This is classic poetry. Great stuff. What’s more, Hippie and Graychin appear at 1:53. You tell me if that’s not one of them? :lol:

  • 108. hippieprof  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:14 pm

    Tex, maybe there is more video than I am aware of. The video I did see frankly didn’t contain a whole lot of evidence for intimidation going on. I don’t for a second like the looks of what I saw – but I don’t suspect there is enough there to prosecute.

    The video I am thinking of is here:

    http://stevex09.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/obama-and-erick-holder-are-racists/

    The President, of course, has no actual power to tell the AG to do anything. The AG, in turn, has the right to pursue or not pursue cases. If the evidence is as thin as what I see in that video – looks like he might have made the right decision.

    Mind you, I am not advocating what was being done – but I suspect you need a little more evidence than that.

    Where would the grounds for prosecution/impeachment be again?

  • 109. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:18 pm

    The AG, in turn, has the right to pursue or not pursue cases.

    The AG told the attorneys, who had already won the case, to dismiss it.

    That is what a default judgment is.. You get it when the defendants do not respond to the complaint. Priority or not a priority, you don’t tell staffers who already got a win to bag it.

  • 110. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    Are you referring to the video at the voting booth Hippie?

    If so, let me make sure I understand you correctly. You don’t find this voter intimidation. Do I understand you correctly?

  • 111. hippieprof  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    Tex – I didn’t see any video of events at a voting booth – just video of a couple of tough looking guys standing outside. Where is the voting booth video?

  • 112. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:24 pm

    “Which one of you political geniuses was touting the virtues of John Boehner a few threads ago? Killing an ant with a nuclear bomb! Oh that’s classic!”

    That would be me.

    And you want to know what is equally classic?–his response to Obama calling him out on it.

    “The President should be focused on solving the problems of the American people…instead of my choice of metaphors.”

    No shit. What are we at now—74 days of oil spewing from an open hole?

    9.7% unemployment.

    $2,300,000,000,000 in the red.

    A resurging enemy just waiting to capitalize on our eventual departure from Afghanistan.

    and on and on goes the list….

    Boehner continued:

    “I wasn’t minimizing the crisis America faced – I was pointing out that Washington Democrats have produced a bill that will actually kill more jobs and make the situation worse,” he said. “It does nothing to reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government mortgage companies that caused the housing and financial crisis by giving risky loans to people who couldn’t possibly pay them back.”

    Why no reform for Fannie and Freddie, Rutherford? Wouldn’t that have been classic?

    Let’s keep worrying about what the powerless party has to say rather than what the powerful party does and doesn’t do.

  • 113. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    HippieProf, are you ignorant or being difficult? The booths are inside the building that the 2 armed men are standing outside of.

  • 114. hippieprof  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    Huck – I am not trying to be difficult. I am saying that if the stuff going on in the video is all the evidence they have, it is pretty thin.

    I AM NOT ADVOCATING WHAT THEY ARE DOING – just commenting that more evidence would probably be necessary.

    BiW suggests that the cases were already won – which does shed a different light on it.

  • 115. hippieprof  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    Obviously, I am no expert.

    BiW, if you had to defend the guys in the video, based on the evidence in the video alone, how would you go about defending them? I suspect (but do not know) that it would be a pretty easy case for you to win.

  • 116. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    BiW suggests that the cases were already won – which does shed a different light on it.

    I’m not “suggesting” anything. I’m stating a fact.

    From the notoriously conservative Washington Times:

    The career Justice lawyers were on the verge of securing sanctions against the men earlier this month when their superiors ordered them to reverse course, according to interviews and documents. The court had already entered a default judgment against the men on April 20.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/29/career-lawyers-overruled-on-voting-case/

  • 117. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    BiW, if you had to defend the guys in the video, based on the evidence in the video alone, how would you go about defending them? I suspect (but do not know) that it would be a pretty easy case for you to win.

    Not my area of law.
    Based on the video alone, I would say to them “What the F*** were you thinking?”

    Based on what I do know about the voting rights act, I’m not sure that they would have a defense, at least not one that would get any traction. Standing outside a polling place, sizing up and challenging people who approach, and calling yourself “security” when you appear to be a private citizen qualifies as intimidating.

    However, there was other evdience, including an affidavit from a poll watcher affiliated with RFK’s campaign regarding overt acts by our peaceful citizens featured in the video.

  • 118. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 6:38 pm

    Here’s my defense …. a couple of dudes standing outside a polling place armed is no different from a bunch of dudes coming to a supposedly peaceful political rally armed (can you spell Tea Party?)

    Show me evidence that there was explicit intimidation, i.e. someone grabbed by the arm and questioned about whom they would vote for. My bet …. it didn’t happen.

    Now BiW you don’t want infringe on the brotha’s 2nd amendment rights now do you?

  • 119. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 6:39 pm

    Hell, maybe the brotha just “wants his country back”? :lol:

  • 120. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 6:53 pm

    Here’s my defense …. a couple of dudes standing outside a polling place armed is no different from a bunch of dudes coming to a supposedly peaceful political rally armed (can you spell Tea Party?)

    Show me evidence that there was explicit intimidation, i.e. someone grabbed by the arm and questioned about whom they would vote for. My bet …. it didn’t happen.

    Now BiW you don’t want infringe on the brotha’s 2nd amendment rights now do you?

    If you don’t want to attend a Tea Party rally, you don’t have to.

    If you are assigned a polling place, you usually don’t have the option to go anywhere else and vote.

    Let’s turn the analogy around, R.

    Outside the polling place there are 2 white guys in their 20s with close cropped hair and white shirts, black ties and black slacks, brandishing clubs, while eyeballing people approaching the polling place and and claiming to be security.

    Or to be less subtle, two guys in what are clearly Klan robes sans hoods?

    I think under the Voting Rights Act, they are guilty as charged.

    The Career voting rights case attorneys working on this case clearly thought so too. As it is what they did for a living, I’m inclined to defer to their judgment in the matter,

  • 121. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 7:06 pm

    Okay Rutherford,

    If that is not voter intimidation, I’m not sure what is.

    Fair enough, notwithstanding your stupid analogy of Tea Parties and voting booths. You wrote a good post, but your comments on this thread have been nothing short of ignorant. I think you’ve finally jumped the shark over the failures of this administration, haven’t dealt well with our snarky comments of its failures, and finally lost your mind with your own form of subdued rage. Your conclusions were always muddled, but until recently I never found you entirely unjust.

    Have it your way…

  • 122. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 7:07 pm

    Show me evidence that there was explicit intimidation, i.e. someone grabbed by the arm and questioned about whom they would vote for. My bet …. it didn’t happen.

    You don’t have to be touched to be intinmidated any more than you have to be touched to be assaulted, R. As for the evidence, did you read the news story? DOJ lawyers are not in the habit of making allegations without a reasonable basis (i.e. “proof”). To make such allegations without having the necessary proof to make the claim would open them personally, and their employer to Rule 11 sanctions, which could include fines, and the supression of evidence and pleadings, denial of discovery, and dismissal of their case. DOJ attorneys do not make those kinds of mistakes, even if that is what the political appointees implied with their statements about the dismissal of the case. If they had made an error so eggregious, the judge could have, and likely would have, sanctioned them sua sponte for a Rule 11 violation.

    Of course now that one of them has quit, he doesn’t have to comply with the order to resist the subpeona to testify as to the circumstances, and he is saying some VERY interesting things.

  • 123. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 7:16 pm

    Huck,

    “Which one of you political geniuses was touting the virtues of John Boehner a few threads ago? Killing an ant with a nuclear bomb! Oh that’s classic!”

    Rutherford calls you out on John Boehner, but let’s this go by the wayside. And you’ll note, this is the 3rd person in line for the Presidency…

    “Pelosi: Unemployment Checks Fastest Way to Create Jobs!”

    http://www.breitbart.tv/pelosi-unemployment-checks-fastest-way-to-create-jobs/

    The country is in the best of hands.

  • 124. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 7:19 pm

    Huck,

    Some of the comments that follow the video are classics! Make sure you read some of them.

    “I would give California back to Mexico just go get rid of her…” :lol:

  • 125. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 9:09 pm

    For a change of pace, any of you think the Rolling Stone piece was underhanded? Apparently a CBS war correspondent is crying foul claiming that the story will limit future access to soldiers in the field.

    Hey Gorilla, if you’re lurking about, is it common practice that everything defaults to off the record for embedded journalists? So they can only publish what is explicitly identified as on the record. This convention would be opposite to what goes on in civilian situations.

  • 126. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 1, 2010 at 9:50 pm

    “I suspect (but do not know) that it would be a pretty easy case for you to win.”

    Yeah, that’s why they ignored the case and it went to default judgement…because it was just so easy to defend against.

    And Rutherford, I am still waiting for you to defend that Wall St. reform bill that was meant to protect us from another bubble burst, while not actually reforming the institutions (Fanie and Freddie) that caused the bubble to grow in the first place.

    Or is shit talk about Boehner’s analogy the best we are going to get from you on the topic?

  • 127. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 1, 2010 at 9:55 pm

    Tex, since I am born and raised in California, I’m afraid I just don’t find the classic humor in that comment like you do.

    Then again, since many of our politicians are already taking the lead of the Mexican president, perhaps California has already been given back to Mexico and we just haven’t been told yet.

    Who knows maybe we will learn that news when we get our new budget. Or from another foreign interview of our Secretary of State.

  • 128. El Tigre  |  July 1, 2010 at 10:05 pm

    Rutherford, just for fun, if you had to prosecute the guys in the video, based on the evidence in the video alone, how would you go about prosecuting them?

    We all know you’re not a lawyer. But give it a shot. You’ve given lay opinions on legal matters before. And your not being graded. It’s a fair question given your challenge to BiW.

  • 129. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:02 pm

    Huck,

    I had forgotten you said you were from California – a bastion of failed liberal policies. I’ve always contended one of the biggest mistakes national Republicans make is not pointing fingers at California as a caricature of failed progressivism. There is no doubt liberalism has ruined at one time our number one state. We used to vacation out there every other summer, but since it went Lib, I have found more appealing places to spend my money.

    Nonetheless, I can appreciate you not finding it as funny as I did. :wink:

    However, I can’t believe I didn’t get any response from the humor I submitted earlier this morning concerning the letter of complaint sent to Richard Branson at Virgin Airlines. That was the best humor I’ve read in a long, long time.

    Now that anybody would have found funny, which tells me most of the messages are not read here on this board anymore.

    Rutherford was right in the sense that he and I can almost finish each other’s messages anymore.

  • 130. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:23 pm

    Tex, I read it, but I didn’t find it that funny. The idea of long flight with shitty food doesn’t make me laugh.

  • 131. Tex Taylor  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:29 pm

    Man, I thought that was funny as hell. Two sponge wedges on a tomato? The hamster? I laughed through that whole thing.

    Undoubtedly, a bunch of other people did too, including Richard Branson. I wished they would have included the other pictures.

  • 132. Rutherford  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:55 pm

    Or is shit talk about Boehner’s analogy the best we are going to get from you on the topic?

    For the time being, yes. ;-) I haven’t had time to do a deep dive on the Wall St reform legislation yet which is why I haven’t written about it.

    The nice thing about the GOP lately is they say stupid sh*t that sounds stupid without having to do a deep dive.

  • 133. dead rabbit  |  July 1, 2010 at 11:56 pm

    I can’t stand when I see smart people either blatantly lie to themselves and everyone else or just be total fucking morons.
    Particularly a Harvard grad and a college professor.

    I might make some pointless and cluttering posts here, and for that I apologize. But, at least I do try to stay true to myself.

    Rutherford and hippieprof, are you morons?

    Or liars?

    Did you really compare a Tea Party to a voting booth?

    Do you feel slimy when you find yourself abandoning the most basic tenants of common sense on such a sophomoric level that your reasoning wouldn’t be accepted on a 10th grade persuasion essay ?

    The guys were standing at an election place decked out in famous fatigues that rank second only to the iconic nature of the Ku Klux Klan suit when it comes to American racial hatred and strife, all the while holding billy clubs (which are illeagal) as accessories.

    LOL

    Would it kill you to say that maybe Holder and Obama didn’t have the balls to take on a socially divisive case so early in an obviously historic presidency? Are you seriously that insecure?

    Sure, that assertion might not cut the mustard with many here, and debate would ensue.

    But man, I hate when you make yourself a dishonest punk.

    It makes me literally not like you guys becuase I know your better then that.

  • 134. Rutherford  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:10 am

    82 obviously reminded me of Bill – O

  • 135. Tex Taylor  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:30 am

    It makes me literally not like you guys becuase I know your better then that.

    I’m not so sure. If they actually can’t distinguish the criminality of that act and that truly does represent the common opinion in progressive circles, then God help us.

    Once was a joke. Twice perhaps a slip or being obtuse. But this continues a pattern of bad behavior and blatant corruption, and is a blight on a society that if not addressed, festers into chaos and anarchy. We’re already starting to see the signs of it building to a crescendo and its been with us now for quite some time. And it has festered way too long without much challenge. Mocking Sarah Palin’s disabled child and its name? Making joke of voter intimidation? Nullification of criminality by perverted courts? Trumped up charges of racism? That is what represents debate anymore?

    I used to think they were pulling our leg. If these actions continue to go unaddressed and ignored, or tolerated, or to be swept under the rug, then I think we should kick ourselves for not kicking their collective asses down the road and off the map.

    IMO.

  • 136. Rutherford  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:35 am

    Rutherford, just for fun, if you had to prosecute the guys in the video, based on the evidence in the video alone, how would you go about prosecuting them?

    OK for starters, I’m using the video posted by HP. I really don’t understand how that is a polling place. It looks like the entrance to an apartment complex but fine, I’ll leave that be.

    As HP said, there is virtually no evidence in the video. The “security guards” actually appear to be wearing some kind of uniform. Is it black panther garb? OK, I’d have to figure that out first.

    Second, I would want to interview the white guy standing to the left of the camera shot who doesn’t seem the least bit perturbed by the “guards”. As a prosecutor I would hope that he would say “I was terrified of these guys because we all know a black man with a club is very scary!” OK, I’m just screwing with you …. yes I would interview the guy to see if he felt intimidated.

    I’d interview the “guards” to find out who hired them to provide security for the venue.

    Again, on the face of it, there is nothing prosecutable in the video. So I would have to start asking questions to arrive at any determination of real threat. By the way, it is intimidation to bring a camera to a polling place so the “guards” were within reason to question why phone-cameras were being used. ;-)

    In answer to, I think it was Huck, yes I’d be pretty upset if folks in Klan outfits, minus the hoods were standing outside that venue. That is because Klan outfits signify a mind set. I’d be less justified to be scared by a white dude in t-shirt, jeans and lots of tattoos. So I’d ask you Huck, what does a black man have to wear to signify to you that he’s dangerous? Seriously, I would’ve mistaken the guys in that video for security of some type based on their attire. I might have been more intimidated had they been dressed differently.

    All of this is totally beside the legal point. BiW’s claim which I cannot refute is that these guys were already essentially convicted of intimidation and Holder called off further punishment (do I have that right, BiW?) So just on the legal merits, Holder seems out of line.Since Holder is no fool, I have to think the facts lie somewhere between what BiW says and what actually went down.

  • 137. Rutherford  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:41 am

    Rabbit I’m really the wrong guy to ask cos I don’t know the iconic Black Panther uniform … honestly. They actually looked pretty damn official to me.

    Now the Tea Party comment was made primarily just to be an ass. I have to have some fun some of the time. And I was trying to make the larger point that folks seem very willing to defend the 2nd amendment rights of whites …. blacks, no so much.

  • 138. Rutherford  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:48 am

    Tex, your melodrama can be mind-boggling. I think a decent argument could be made that our dear country has been in decline for at least 10 years. It didn’t suddenly hit rock bottom on January 20, 2009. Now to hear you tell the story, it did.

    Nonsense. Again I think it was Huck who asked how I will evaluate Obama when his time is done …. and if I will say of him the same things I said of Bush. If when Obama is done, the country is as f*cked or worse than when he came in, then yes … my conclusion will be that he was in over his head.

    You see the similarity to Obama’s failure (if it should come to pass) and Bush’s failure is that both men wanted what was best for our country. You and “your ilk” lose credibility on a daily basis by questioning Obama’s motives … saying he wants to destroy America.

    It makes you sound like a loon and you have yet to figure that out.

  • 139. dead rabbit  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:50 am

    Security guards?

    You don’t know what black panthers wear? Perhaps you didn’t notice the NBPP patch, beret, fatigues, combat boots?

    Hey…..how about this one….they are black panthers!

    Can you believe it?

  • 140. dead rabbit  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:57 am

    “Rabbit I’m really the wrong guy to ask cos I don’t know the iconic Black Panther uniform … honestly. They actually looked pretty damn official to me.”-Rutherford

    You always talk about how fascinated you are with 1960’s history and the civil rights era. Were you bull shitting me?

    Nope…I aint buying it…..I’ve been reading your stuff for over a year in a half. You “get” the most nuanced pop cultural references.

    You’re not ignorant. You’re a fucking liar.

  • 141. dead rabbit  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:59 am

    “the Tea Party comment was made primarily just to be an ass.”

    My bad on the Tea Party thing. I thought you were being serious.

    Are you just joking with me over the black panther garb too?

    I’m starting to think the joke is on the Rabbit.

  • 142. dead rabbit  |  July 2, 2010 at 1:08 am

    “And I was trying to make the larger point that folks seem very willing to defend the 2nd amendment rights of whites …. blacks, no so much.”-R

    I don’t get it?

    What are you talking about? Stolen hand guns or something?

    When I lived in Virginia i used to go hunting with a black guy I worked with at the juvenile prison. I seem to be pegged as the unseemly racially insensitive prick here. But I can’t imagine viewing gun ownership through race. I mean, the thought literally has never crossed my mind. Trust me, if it did, I would tell you.

  • 143. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 2, 2010 at 3:08 am

    “So I’d ask you Huck, what does a black man have to wear to signify to you that he’s dangerous?”

    Wasn’t me.

  • 144. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 2, 2010 at 3:22 am

    “Since Holder is no fool, I have to think the facts lie somewhere between what BiW says and what actually went down.”

    No. The facts are exactly as he laid out. The case was prosecuted. The accused ignored it and were convicted by default. During the sentencing phase, Holder called everyone off and dropped the case citing “lack of evidence.”

    And the reason we don’t know any more than that is because the DoJ refuses to say anything more than “lack of evidence” when asked about it.

  • 145. dead rabbit  |  July 2, 2010 at 7:54 am

    Hucking,

    You’re trying to have a conversation with a dude in his 40’s who claims he doesn’t know how to identify someone in Black Panther Party.

    Seriously, there is no conversation to be had with the blog owner on this subject.

  • 146. dead rabbit  |  July 2, 2010 at 7:55 am

    “The look pretty damn official to me”

    LOL

  • 147. El Tigre  |  July 2, 2010 at 8:30 am

    I give up on you Ruhterford. Well, at least on this one.

    I’m with Tex and Rabbit. You have presented throughout this entire post and thread the most intellectually dishonest rubbish I have read from you. And you’re relatively unashamed of your duplicitous view of racial issues. Shame on you.

  • 148. an800lbgorilla  |  July 2, 2010 at 8:45 am

    To 125:

    R,
    For many moons now, you’ll see every reporter looked at like Mike Hastings. “You’ve been stoned”, will likely be a new term for hit pieces.

    In short, yes, I think that the media will be restricted, but not as a result of policy changes in the DoD but because commanders will not trust the media.

    This is new precedent…

  • 149. Tex Taylor  |  July 2, 2010 at 10:41 am

    El Tigre and Dead Rabbit are right Rutherford.

    Your double standards are a personal embarrassment to even engage, and the intellectual dishonesty is every bit as bad as Hippie Professor’s and Graychin’s typical tripe. I’ve learned a lot about the inherent stupidity of liberals on this board. All of you have served a purpose – just not the purpose you thought you served.

    You Rutherford excuse voter intimidation because these thugs are black out of some feigned ignorance, then accuse us of applying 2nd Amendment rights differently by race. Well – just this week, our “ilk” was cheering the findings of the SCOTUS about their correct determination and application of the 2nd Amendment. The fact that the vote was 5-4 is a disgrace. Four pathetic, liberal nihilists like you sit on the SCOTUS and their vote is always predictably skewed toward the dictatorial and amoral level, further eroding this country into the abyss. Kagan is sorry continuation of your ilk’s sordid history of power grab by fiat, corruption and misapplication of law. Rights and liberty could soon be a thing of the past, and the Constitution a ‘Living Document’ subject to the whims of their amoral culture. I told people the real danger of Obama long before he became President would be his appointments, and I have been proven right.

    Please note the 2nd Amendment suit was brought by a BLACK MAN that we cheered in his win at the S.C. Don’t give me the baloney about how we are unfair in our application of blacks owning fire arms. You don’t even recognize what a sell out and disgrace you are. You’ve been misguided by equally misguided, unable to recognize right from wrong.

    I’m with Rabbit – I’m flat out calling you a liar that you don’t recognize Black Panther garb – it’s been around for at least 40 years. You’re old enough to remember the Mexico City Olympics and the black gloves of imbecility held in the air. That’s Obama personified. He ought to stand at the podium with clenched fist and black glove held high in the air, while you clowns pee in your pants and faint over inanity and platitudes of Hope & Change, worshiping you anointed one. Fools!

    You and “your ilk” lose credibility on a daily basis by questioning Obama’s motives … saying he wants to destroy America.

    I now question everything about Obama. He’s an epic failure, a puppet on a string with a gift of gab from a prepared speech on a teleprompter, a megalomaniac, and lying thug.

    From Barry’s meteoric rise without merit, to his obvious malignant narcissism, to his supposed intellect (corpse man), to his transparent past of no record, to his transformation of America in his image, to the Marxists, Communists, racists, and and loons that raised him, to his statist policies, to his bowing to Muslims and refusing to acknowledge the enemy by name. He is a weak, ineffective President and puppet, on a string of powerful people, groomed from a young age as a smooth talking black man – a prop that could be used to fulfill a purpose of obtaining authority for some very wicked people.

    There was a time I thought you simply a confused but honest man. Unfortunately this last year, you’ve proven to me that you are an ignorant, uninformed puppet and propagandist, willing to bend truth when required, unable of handling adversity, and hiding from the obvious.

    If and when you can ever return to some semblance of honesty and wish to engage me in debate, look me up. As of now, you have no further merit in my book and are a waste of my time.

  • 150. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 2, 2010 at 11:18 am

    .Since Holder is no fool,

    The guy who wanted to try KSM in NYC is “no fool”?

    The guy who cannot even offer a cogent explaination for such madness to a Senator is “no fool”?

    The guy who is oblivious to the appearance of a conflict of interest in assigning attorneys who once defended terrorists to now prosecute them is “no fool”?

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    Wrong.

  • 151. dead rabbit  |  July 2, 2010 at 11:29 am

    lol…..Rutherford’s response about Holder “being no fool” should be used in a logical fallacy book for 5th graders.

    Example 1b. Appeal to Authority.

  • 152. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    Yeah, we usually end up getting 1 of the big 3 from the left.

    Appeal to Authority
    Red Herring
    Straw Man

    And sometimes they sprinkle in some Appeal to Emotion for added flavor.

  • 153. hippieprof  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    So – Huck – seriously – you are claiming that appeal to authority, straw man, and red herring are tools of the left. Seriously?

    Hmmm….

    Appeal to authority: quoting scripture in a political argument

    Straw Man: Obama is a socialist

    Red Herring: Obama is a secret Muslim

  • 154. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    So the 3rd highest Democrat in the land says unemployment benefits are the best way to create jobs.

    But Boehner is the idiot?….

  • 155. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    Yes, they are tools of the left. Feel free to point out where I said they were tools exclusive to the left and then we can continue the debate you seem to want to have.

  • 156. hippieprof  |  July 2, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    Huck – I have no problem as long as you are not claiming they are exclusive tools of the left. Yeah, both sides are prone to using such rhetorical tools. It is sad, because all it does is detract from the issues.

    I might add one more: Calling anyone who disagrees with you a “liar.”

  • 157. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 2, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    “Calling anyone who disagrees with you a “liar.””

    Or a racist.

  • 158. hippieprof  |  July 2, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    Or a racist.

    Fair enough…. I will add “calling someone a race baiter when they point out legitimate examples of racism.”
    ;)

  • 159. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 2, 2010 at 1:29 pm

    Fair enough…. I will add “calling someone a race baiter when they point out legitimate examples of racism.”

    How convenient. It allows the accuser to define the term.

  • 160. hippieprof  |  July 2, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    How convenient. It allows the accuser to define the term.

    Convenient, perhaps – but I would also say that “race baiter” is a convenient was to deflect attention away from real instances of racism.

    I am not saying that every accusation of racism is true – there are indeed some illegitimate accusations. I just think that “race baiter” has been used on occasion to distract us from exploring legitimate accusations.

  • 161. Rutherford  |  July 2, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    Hippie, it’s worse than that.

    Someone who points out instances of racism is not just called a race-baiter …. they are called a racist!!! It’s really too much.

  • 162. Rutherford  |  July 2, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    Tex, you’ve gone all manic-depressive on me again. Earlier in the week I had a redeeming quality or two … now I’m a rank propagandist not worth your time. Yikes.

    Now I know this is going to be very hard for some of you to swallow but I was about 10 years old when the Black Panthers were in their hey-day. As a political movement, they are a blip on the radar screen right now. And honestly, had I not known up front that those dudes were Black Panthers I would not have made the immediate association. Yes the berets are a tipoff, but I’m telling you, Black Panther outfits simply don’t hit a hot button with me. I didn’t think of the iconic fist raised photos until Rabbit reminded me of it.

    Perhaps, and I say this sincerely, if I were white, the costume would be more ingrained in my head … perhaps the way I would never have trouble identifying a KKK outfit. Call me a liar all you like, without knowing the back story, I would not have immediately thought Black Panther when I saw those guys. (By the way, as may be equally hard for you to believe, I am pretty naive racially. I’ve been exposed to very little first-hand racism and while you guys find me racially sensitive, I often don’t even know a black man has been dissed until I give it more thought or someone points it out to me.)

  • 163. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 2, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    Convenient, perhaps – but I would also say that “race baiter” is a convenient was to deflect attention away from real instances of racism.

    Too be sure. And what would we do with academia to “consider” the issue, and to of course, to deliniate classifications and subclassifications, with the result being that the “victims” and their enablers can continue to point at the offending practice long after it has left the room and make their ongoing victimhood an ongoing excuse for the latest incarnations of remedial measures designed to counteract the practice that are forced on society by government this week.

  • 164. dead rabbit  |  July 2, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    Well, I guess I have no other choice but to believe you. Although it’s a tough one. I do remember being shocked when you claimed you didn’t know Libya was a Muslim country. I suppose there are some major holes in your education, as there are mine.

    I grow suspiciously quiet on anything Nixon

    What other political blog can the Rabbit threaten the blog owner, bore everyone with his personal life and randomly post psychedelic rock.

    As for hippie-prof, I wasn’t calling Rutherford a liar becuase I disagreed with him. I was calling Rutherford a liar becuase I believed he was being a lair. Dude, he claimed he had no idea of how to identify someone from the Black Panthers. You can’t see how that could at least come off as a little intellectually dishonest? Particularly from a Harvard educated black man with a self proclaimed passion for 1960’s politics?

  • 165. hippieprof  |  July 2, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    The “victims” and their enablers can continue to point at the offending practice long after it has left the room

    BiW – are you sincerely claiming that racism has long since left the room?

  • 166. hippieprof  |  July 2, 2010 at 3:51 pm

    Dude, he claimed he had no idea of how to identify someone from the Black Panthers

    Rabbit – you may want to call me a liar too, then. I had no idea the guys in the video were wearing the uniform of the Black Panthers. I was about 8 years old when the Black Panthers were in their previous heyday – and they are such a small influence these days they have been completely off my radar screen.

  • 167. dead rabbit  |  July 2, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    I really don’t want to rehash this. And maybe it is a little ridiculous to call people I don’t really know liars. But dude, I can’t help it. I don’t believe you.

    For someone who is an expert in psychology not to be in tune with images ingrained in the collective consciousness of America is bizarre to me.

    By the way, I take it some of the iconic moments in the movie Forest Gump went right over your head. I remember a scene when Forest Gump addressed the Black Panthers without the movie spelling out who they were. You must have been clueless.

    You must be a real treat at a Halloween Party. Your wife explaining the context of every damn costume.

    I honestly think I could have pointed out a Black Panther by the time I was 12 years old. I was born in 73.

  • 168. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 2, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    BiW – are you sincerely claiming that racism has long since left the room?

    I’m saying it is still the root justification for practices which should have been phased out over the last 30 years rather than morphed into something slightly different and perpetuated through specious justification and unquantifiable data.

  • 169. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 2, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    Rabbit – you may want to call me a liar too, then. I had no idea the guys in the video were wearing the uniform of the Black Panthers. I was about 8 years old when the Black Panthers were in their previous heyday – and they are such a small influence these days they have been completely off my radar screen.

    And yet, you can cite studies that identify fifteen or twenty different types of racism. Color me shocked.

    I was born in 1971. I’ll admit that I had an interest in history even as a boy, but hell, even I knew who Huey P. Newton was by the time I was 10.

    I’m not sure a facepalm would be an appropriate response here. I may have to do it three or four times.

  • 170. Rutherford  |  July 2, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    Particularly from a Harvard educated black man with a self proclaimed passion for 1960’s politics?

    Ehhhh, Rabbit … I don’t recall claiming a passion for 1960’s politics. On the contrary I’ve written before that I was pretty much politically in the dark until 2007. I always voted … usually strictly party line but I knew little about the issues.

    Anything I know about 60’s politics now is strictly in catch-up mode. Now … 60’s and 70’s music? Yeah I am pretty well versed about that! 60’s and 70’s TV. Yup again. Politics, I know what I lived through and simply couldn’t ignore like the Vietnam body count on the news every night (but that tied into my being a TV addict) or the Watergate hearings (again TV addict).

    So sorry to disappoint you but I never claimed to be a 1960’s politics expert.

    What’s funny is … because this is basically a political blog and not a personal one, I have not shared some anecdotes that would you clue you into how “blond” I can be at times. I’ll share two incidents in a comment later tonight. Right now, I’m taking my kid out bike riding before it turns into an oven outside later this weekend.

  • 171. hippieprof  |  July 2, 2010 at 4:20 pm

    And yet, you can cite studies that identify fifteen or twenty different types of racism. Color me shocked.

    Ummmm…. I can’t do that either. It isn’t my specialty. Never claimed it was.

    Call me a liar if you like – but I have one last question. What would be my motive for lying here? I am not an apologist for Rutherford. I have criticized him before. Why would I want to put myself forward for such an accusation?

  • 172. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 2, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    Call me a liar if you like – but I have one last question. What would be my motive for lying here? I am not an apologist for Rutherford. I have criticized him before. Why would I want to put myself forward for such an accusation?

    I never called you a liar. It was an ironic observation.

  • 173. dead rabbit  |  July 2, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    “What would be my motive for lying here? “-hippieprof

    That my friend, is a good question. I don’t know.

    At first I thought maybe you were subtly trying to push the conversation in the following direction: “You white conservatives see two black men and wrongfully assume them to be threatening.”

    Your other motive may be that it is such a textbook case of voter intimidation that the only possible way not to be just as outraged as we are is to feign complete ignorance of African American History.

  • 174. dead rabbit  |  July 2, 2010 at 4:35 pm

    “I don’t recall claiming a passion for 1960′s politics”

    You did. I think I can find it too.

  • 175. hippieprof  |  July 2, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    That my friend, is a good question. I don’t know.

    Well, I stated from the top that I wasn’t condoning the behavior. I have two interests here…

    1) I am just intellectually curious about the legal issues involved. I learn stuff from you. believe it or not. When I ask you for a legal opinion you should assume it is an honest question, not some kid of trap.

    2) I think Tex (and others) are incredibly over the top by calling this some kind of impeachable offense.

    Obama and Holder look like they made a bad move here. It discredits them a bit. Impeachable? I don’t think so.

  • 176. dead rabbit  |  July 2, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    I don’t know the legality of it, but I wouldn’t want the President impeached over that. Wouldn’t be worth the instability.

    Instability was why they opted not to pursue this. I think they were cowards not to do so, and that most people, including blacks, would have agreed that a case was justifiable.

    I think Obama was afraid to do it becuase he was the first black President and didn’t want a racial issue right out of the gate.

    Funny thing is he did just that when he defended his boy and wrongfully railroaded that cop during a fricking health care speech.

    The Lord works in mysterious ways.

  • 177. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 2, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    Completely off-topic….

    I rented Invictus last night, and I highly recommend it.

    A beautiful story of the power of forgiveness, nationalism used positively, and the rebirth of a nation.

  • 178. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 2, 2010 at 6:03 pm

    As long as we’re making movie recommendations, I finally watched “Amazing Grace”, about William Wilburforce and his efforts to end the slave trade in the British Empire.

    It was terrific. There were some fantastic performances, and it really is a great story.

  • 179. Rutherford  |  July 3, 2010 at 1:24 am

    OK, as promised, two quick anecdotes so you understand just how clueless I can be at times. Consider it a 4th of July gift.

    Anecdote 1: This dates back to the mid 80’s when I had a two hour round trip commute to work from my parents home on Long Island. One evening I found myself about one car length behind a truck waiting in line at a toll plaza.

    I noticed the distance between the front of my car and the back of his truck very slowly shortening.

    I pumped my brake to no avail.

    I pulled up my emergency break. We were still getting closer.

    Finally, I turned off the car. At this point, the the truck gave my hood a slight love tap and then he changed lanes.

    I turned the car back on and drove the rest of the way home convinced that my brakes had failed. I was terrified. As I pulled into the driveway, it finally hit me. “DOH, my car wasn’t drifting forward …. the truck was backing up.”

    Anecdote 2: I had just moved from Long Island to Connecticut and on my commute back and forth to work I noticed this establishment called a “package store”. I didn’t give it much thought until one night when I had run out of Entenmann’s chocolate donuts and decided to stop at the package store to see if they had any. As I walked from the car to the store, I was oblivious to the signs in the window advertising discounts on beer and wine. I then walked up and down the aisles of the store seeing lots of booze but no donuts (or any other kind of food). The storekeeper finally asked if he could help me. Fool that I was, I said, “yes, I’m looking for donuts.” He very kindly said “we don’t carry donuts, we’re a liquor store.”

    I thanked him and booked it out of there as quickly as possible. I did tell him “oh, I’m not from this area.” He probably thought I was from Mars. I had never heard a liquor store called a “package store” and I was dead set on finding donuts there.

    So Rabbit, if you knew me better, you could very well believe that I could see a couple of black dudes wearing berets and not completely register that they were Black Panthers. I consider myself a smart guy …. but i can be a bit of a Mr. Magoo at times.

  • 180. Rutherford  |  July 3, 2010 at 1:25 am

    Happy 4th of July Weekend to everyone.

    and

    FREE BLAGO! :-D

  • 181. Rutherford  |  July 3, 2010 at 1:28 am

    “I don’t recall claiming a passion for 1960′s politics”

    You did. I think I can find it too.

    You may be thinking of the times I’ve lauded Bill Buckley …. but that’s based on my watching archival footage, not based on my watching him back in the day.

  • 182. Rutherford  |  July 3, 2010 at 1:35 am

  • 183. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 3, 2010 at 2:33 am

    So Democrats pulled a demon pass on their nonexistent 2011 budget last night. The move got bipartisan support.

    Oh wait. Did I say support? I meant opposition.

    Last night, as part of a procedural vote on the emergency war supplemental bill, House Democrats attached a document that “deemed as passed” a non-existent $1.12 trillion budget. The execution of the “deeming” document allows Democrats to start spending money for Fiscal Year 2011 without the pesky constraints of a budget.

    The procedural vote passed 215-210 with no Republicans voting in favor and 38 Democrats crossing the aisle to vote against deeming the faux budget resolution passed.

    Never before — since the creation of the Congressional budget process — has the House failed to pass a budget, failed to propose a budget then deemed the non-existent budget as passed as a means to avoid a direct, recorded vote on a budget, but still allow Congress to spend taxpayer money.

  • 184. an800lbgorilla  |  July 3, 2010 at 7:10 am

    So Rabbit, if you knew me better, you could very well believe that I could see a couple of black dudes wearing berets and not completely register that they were Black Panthers. I consider myself a smart guy …. but i can be a bit of a Mr. Magoo at times.” — R

    I’m sorry R, I don’t buy it. It shouldn’t matter if they were Panthers or not, though from the first time I heard- let alone saw- this event, I had immediately called the Panthers. Google the youtube video for this and tell me that this wasn’t blatant intimidation. After you watch that, really, how can you have anything but complete contempt for this DOJ decision, especially for you as a minority. Hypocricy is the antithesis to your narrative.

    And Justice For All
    The salient thing about J. Christian Adams’s accusation that the Obama administration deliberately let off the New Black Panther Party after it engaged in voter intimidation is that, if true, it constitutes a pure exercise in the abuse of power. The other wrongs it represents — the perversion of the electoral process, the violation of civil rights — are secondary. The most serious allegation in the whole affair is that the certain officials countenanced a crime because they wanted to. The most concentrated expression of tyranny is malice in the service of caprice.

    Feds: Nightstick at polls ‘not prosecutable’

    The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights is demanding to know why the Obama administration Justice Department dropped a civil complaint accusing three members of the New Black Panther Party for Self-Defense of wielding a nightstick and threatening voters at a Philadelphia polling place last Election Day.

    The commission, an independent body charged with investigating civil-rights complaints and making recommendations to the federal government, held a hearing on the case May 14. Thomas Perez, assistant attorney general of the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department, gave testimony, stating that “the facts did not constitute a prosecutable violation of the federal criminal civil rights statutes.”

    After a poll watcher saw one of the men brandishing a nightstick to threaten voters, he called police.

    “As I walked up, they closed ranks, next to each other,” he told Fox News. “So I walked directly in between them, went inside and found the poll watchers. They said they’d been here for about an hour. And they told us not to come outside because a black man is going to win this election no matter what.”

    He said the man with a night stick told him, “‘We’re tired of white supremacy’ and he starts tapping the nightstick in his hand. At which point I said, ‘OK, we’re not going to get in a fist fight right here,’ and I called the police.”

    A poll watcher with the University of Pennsylvania asked the men who they were with.

    The man with the nightstick responded, “Uh, security,” and asked why he was taking pictures.

    He told them, “I think it might be a little intimidating that you have a stick in your hand.” He continued, “I am a concerned citizen, and I’m just worried that …”

    “So are we, and that’s why we’re here,” the Black Panther with the nightstick interrupted.

    According to various witnesses, the men also hurled racial epithets such as “white devil” and “cracker” and told voters they should prepare to be “ruled by the black man.” One person said the men called a Republican poll worker a “race traitor” and told him there would be “hell to pay.”

    The Washington Times reported witnesses testified that they saw would-be voters try to enter the polling place. They purportedly saw the Black Panthers in the doorway and left without voting.

    Officers escorted the man with the nightstick away from the polling location, but the other person in Black Panther gear was a poll watcher. Police allowed him to remain on the premises.

  • 185. an800lbgorilla  |  July 3, 2010 at 9:55 am

    To 125:

    R,
    For many moons now, you’ll see every reporter looked at like Mike Hastings. “You’ve been stoned”, will likely be a new term for hit pieces.

    In short, yes, I think that the media will be restricted, but not as a result of policy changes in the DoD but because commanders will not trust the media.

    This is new precedent…

    — Gorilla

    Yeah, as for the bold portion above, I stand corrected…

    WASHINGTON – The Pentagon’s small press office is about to get a lot busier. Even top military officials now have to get Pentagon clearance for interviews and other contact with reporters.

    Defense Secretary Robert Gates issued the order Friday in a brief memo sent to military and civilian personnel worldwide; it was effective immediately.

  • 186. dead rabbit  |  July 3, 2010 at 10:12 am

    Rutherford,

    When I left Michigan the first time, I had no clue there were these weird, government controlled liquor stores. We just call them party stores here. You can get your donuts and a 5th of Jack.

    Happy 4th Everybody!

  • 187. an800lbgorilla  |  July 3, 2010 at 11:08 am

    Obama awards $2B for solar power, hails new jobs
    WASHINGTON (AP) – The government is handing out nearly $2 billion for new solar plants that President Barack Obama says will create thousands of jobs and increase the use of renewable energy sources.

    Obama announced the initiative in his weekly radio and online address Saturday, saying the money is part of his plan to bring new industries to the U.S.

    “We’re going to keep competing aggressively to make sure the jobs and industries of the future are taking root right here in America,” Obama said.

    The two companies that will receive the money from the president’s $862 billion economic stimulus are Abengoa Solar, which will build one of the world’s largest solar plants in Arizona, creating 1,600 construction jobs; and Abound Solar Manufacturing, which is building plants in Colorado and Indiana. The Obama administration says those projects will create more than 2,000 construction jobs and 1,500 permanent jobs.

    OK, $2,000,000,000 divided by 3,500 is $571,428.57 per job.

    Hmmmmmmmmm:

    The Bureau of Labor Statistics cites industry sources which estimated that an entry-level solar photovoltaic installer earns an average of about $12 to $15 per hour. Those workers with certification or more advanced qualifications, such as an electrician’s license, generally earn more than this. Payscale.com reports that a solar system installer with one to four years of experience can expect from $14.24 to $19.50 per hour, while an installer with five to nine years experience earns an average of $17 to $20.96 per hour.

    At the high end of $20.96 per hour, and at 40 hours a week, a worker would earn $838.40 (pre taxes of course). That means it would take ~682 weeks or just over 13 years for the job to break even with the initial investment. Of course, this is discounting taxes, inflation and life in general.

    Oh, by the way, 1500 of the 3500 jobs go away because they’re construction jobs.

    And folks wonder why we’re getting no jobs out of this administration…

  • 188. an800lbgorilla  |  July 3, 2010 at 11:13 am

    See, there is a better way. To all those who said privitizing Social Security wouldn’t work, explain this to us then…

    Opting Out in Texas: Three Counties Leave the Social Security System
    A specific example of smaller local units of government choosing to opt out of Social Security to design their own pension plans occurred in 1981, when Congress still allowed government units to make that choice. The three Texas gulf coast counties of Brazoria, Galveston, and Matagorda selected a private investment firm to manage their employees’ retirement plans with a guaranteed annual return of 6.5 percent.

    By 1996 the results were in, and county employees’ retirement benefits were triple what would have been paid by Social Security for a worker who earned $20,000 per year and over five times the Social Security benefits for a worker whose pay was $50,000 (see Chart 4, next page). Congress closed the local government opt-out window in 1983 with major Social Security reform legislation that raised taxes and effectively reduced benefits by raising the eligible retirement age after 2015.

  • 189. an800lbgorilla  |  July 4, 2010 at 5:12 am

    Ah, I’m sorry, it should be 2,000 jobs go and 1,500 are permanent.

    That’s not better…

  • 190. Alfie  |  July 4, 2010 at 10:52 am

    Gorilla I have no real desire to scan this entire thread but I did like #187. You are more right than you think. I know in my home state the trades folks and unions will definitely not allow entry level photo volt techs. If there is a wire it has to be an electrician. We snuffed low volt wirers such as home theater techs,I think we’ll do the same here.

  • 191. Alfie  |  July 4, 2010 at 10:54 am

    Huck I just deemed my 2011 taxes paid.

  • 192. Alfie  |  July 4, 2010 at 11:01 am

    #70 and its kin are perhaps the stupidest comments I have seen in some time. Very vacant

  • 193. Alfie  |  July 4, 2010 at 11:07 am

    For someone allegedly concerned about race I don’t know if this post shows the author having a clue.
    The closing 3 paras show some hope that something is going on upstairs but the rest and the thread comments seem to prove political rhetoric trumps real hope and or concern. That may seem like a pretty harsh charge against a person of color and I don’t know how long R could’ve typed to perhaps bail out some of his entries.
    All in all this post left me completely unsatisfied but not in the camp to call R a liar.

  • 194. Rutherford  |  July 4, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    The closing 3 paras show some hope that something is going on upstairs but the rest and the thread comments seem to prove political rhetoric trumps real hope and or concern.

    Well since I consider the final three paragraphs of the article consistent with the rest of it, I have to assume, Alfie, that you actually don’t find any fault with the article itself.

    As for the thread, I’m curious where your issue actually begins and ends. Is it with my failure to recognize Black Panther outfits or the fact that I found nothing clearly prosecutable in the video that Hippie Prof alluded to?

    Let me be clear. I would like to better understand why Holder intervened when defendants were already convicted by virtue of failing to show up to court and defend themselves. Most of the debate here centers around whether I found the “offense” prosecutable in the first place, not whether I am defending Holder or not.

  • 195. Rutherford  |  July 4, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    According to various witnesses, the men also hurled racial epithets such as “white devil” and “cracker” and told voters they should prepare to be “ruled by the black man.” One person said the men called a Republican poll worker a “race traitor” and told him there would be “hell to pay.”

    ROTFL I just love the inconsistency here.

    When racial epithets were hurled at John Lewis a few months ago, many including some on this board claimed it was trumped up and used as their evidence that no one caught it on YouTube. Yet you expect me to swallow this “white devil” stuff wholesale? Where is the YouTube video of it?

    The desire to have one’s cake and eat it too always amuses me.

  • 196. an800lbgorilla  |  July 4, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    R, John Lewis and company were walking with cameras out just waiting to capture a tea party racial moment- and didn’t.

    Really, I did a bit of research and it is no surprise that this guy would have something racial to say. Really.

  • 197. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 4, 2010 at 6:30 pm

    When racial epithets were hurled at John Lewis a few months ago, many including some on this board claimed it was trumped up and used as their evidence that no one caught it on YouTube. Yet you expect me to swallow this “white devil” stuff wholesale? Where is the YouTube video of it?

    The desire to have one’s cake and eat it too always amuses me.

    The level of intellectual uncuriousity is truly irritating.

    The statements of the Black Panthers were attested to in sworn third-party affidavits. (In case you’re not aware, that qualifies as “evidence” in litigation.)

    And if you had read the news story I had so helpfully linked for you, you would have known that.

    Rep. Lewis provided no such evidence, and the film did not show any evidence to support his claims.

    These are important distinctions.

  • 198. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 4, 2010 at 6:34 pm

    Joe Barton once said wind is “finite” & harnessing it could “slow the winds down” (via @SandiBehrns) Could he really be that stupid? 3 hours ago

    Not at all like Hank Johnson worrying about Guam capsizing if we station more marines there.

    Maybe this gets called a draw? ;-)

  • 199. Alfie  |  July 4, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    Well R you are entirely allowed to find whatever you find in existence in your writing. You are of course the writer. As a reader I found your post to dicker between you wanting readers to hate one of the bigots more than the other. I find you historically scoring an incomplete in your analysis of their sins.
    As for the thread how anyone cannot have seen the thugs standing out of a polling place and see nothing wrong is beyond me.
    Perhaps I put too much stock in hoping you are a good choice for race related conversation.
    I don’t necessarily mean this as harshly as it sounds but I often think you are more formed by your medical ailments than your heritage.

  • 200. Rutherford  |  July 4, 2010 at 9:50 pm

    Am I obligated to suggest a Dem idiot for every GOP one? If so, I readily agree that the Guam may capsize remark qualifies.

    I’ve already gone there in a comment thread and in my Internet radio show where I devoted a full segment to Mr. Johnson.

  • 201. Rutherford  |  July 4, 2010 at 11:07 pm

    I don’t necessarily mean this as harshly as it sounds but I often think you are more formed by your medical ailments than your heritage.

    Alfie, this is probably one of the most insightful comments anyone has written on this blog in the past almost 3 years.

    In my life at least, disability has trumped race as an “issue”. It’s partly because I am fair skinned so many folks don’t immediately identify me as black. But I am quite sure that even if I were darker the first thing people would notice is my disability. Much about my life has been about defying expectation. And so much of my life has been the luck of the draw …. having parents who didn’t see disability as an excuse for failure or mediocrity. Under different circumstances, things could have gone very differently.

    But I would say that my physical has influenced my racial attitudes as well. I have a sensitivity to how much environment shapes who we are. I do believe lots of people need a hand-up …. not a hand out. Unlike many on this board, I view liberal politics as providing that hand up.

  • 202. Alfie  |  July 5, 2010 at 9:54 am

    I do believe lots of people need a hand-up …. not a hand out. Unlike many on this board, I view liberal politics as providing that hand up.</blockquote.
    I am afraid that is very worthy of a post of it's own.

  • 203. Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere  |  July 5, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    I do believe lots of people need a hand-up …. not a hand out. Unlike many on this board, I view liberal politics as providing that hand up.

    Too bad that the practice of Liberal politics is all about the handout…and the self-congratulation of the liberal politician who has determined that those he aids are incapable of doing for themselves, and thus designs his aid to not to empower, but enslave, and refuses all debate other methods because they would threaten his fiefdom built on his generousity with other people’s money. That is how we got a “War on Poverty” that has made no significant change in the percentage of people living in poverty, despite the steadily climbing expenditures for this “War” since it was commenced. It has built quite a power base of needy and dependent persons for Democrats, however, so it is a winner there…

  • 204. El Tigre  |  July 5, 2010 at 10:15 pm

    “What would be my motive for lying here? “-hippieprof

    Because it detracts from the narrative you have adopted whole-sale.

    Rutherford, I lied. I have one more comment. To vent my frustration,exacerbated by the frequent and reckless charge of racism from the left, I offer the following. It follows having been called a racist yet again by someone that disagrees with my political thoughts at a social event last night.

    I have to say that when feign not knowing those were black panthers EVEN AFTER BEING TOLD THAT’S WHO THEY WERE, you have no credibility on the subject. You were also told it was a poling place, yet pretended like there’s a question as to whether that is the case.

    I was born in 1968. I knew immediately.

    I was almost waiting for you to say the video didn’t prove it was shot in the United States or that the guys with batons in their hands weren’t “security guards.”

    No one, and I mean no one, with any sense of objectivity or reason wouldn’t see the problem with what was shown in that video. And you and Hippie, self-proclaimed academic elites, sufficiently experienced to know better, and having been told what the video depicts, look and say “well, it doesn’t prove anything.”

    Your approach to the topic of race speaks volumes. You deserve to be called out. I only wish you fully understood how destructive “your ilk’s” willful blindness to the subject really is.
    You claim to have a unique perspective because of your mixed-race descent. That is not credential that operates as suitable alternative to common sense.

  • 205. Rutherford  |  July 6, 2010 at 12:18 am

    … and having been told what the video depicts …

    I beg to differ. This topic didn’t get started by my being told what the video represented. It started by your asking me to offer a prosecution of the men in question based solely on what I saw in the video.

    Heck, life would be easy if all I had to do was agree with what others told me a particular video depicted. I didn’t think that was the exercise here.

    You wanna see a video that on the face of it is far more threatening than the one HP linked to?

  • 206. an800lbgorilla  |  July 6, 2010 at 12:30 am

    R, you need to read this article. I’d love to see your response to it…

    Back Channels: Panther case dismissal needs explanation

    Here’s how a Justice Department complaint filed in January 2009 described those events:

    Samir Shabazz, head of the Philadelphia chapter of the New Black Panther Party, and party member Jerry Jackson were “deployed” in front of a Fairmount Avenue polling place in “military style uniforms.”

    Shabazz brandished a nightstick. He “pointed the weapon at individuals, menacingly tapped it [in] his other hand, or menacingly tapped it elsewhere.” Both Shabazz and Jackson leveled “racial threats and racial insults at both black and white individuals,” and they “made menacing and intimidating gestures, statements, and movements directed at individuals who were present to aid voters.”

    http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20100704_Back_Channels__Panther_case_dismissal_needs_explanation.html#ixzz0ssCeK9Zk

  • 207. dead rabbit  |  July 6, 2010 at 9:53 am

    The more I think about it, Rutherford and hippieporf would be better off just admitting they were being jack asses when they claimed they lack the street smarts and knowledge of American history required to point out who a black panther is.

    They got tied up in winning arguments and, as El Tigre pointed out, the upkeep of their narrative. They now have lost a lot of credibility around here.

    Which sucks, because there are moments when both can be independent thinkers.

  • 208. Rutherford  |  July 6, 2010 at 10:25 am

    This is the part of the whole voter intimidation thing that I’m not getting, still.

    Are we to assume they were only intimidating white voters? If so, what would be the motive … whites vote both sides of the aisle and as many have stated here they vote much less predictably for one side than blacks do, who tend to vote overwhelmingly Democrat.

    So, I can only conclude the Panthers were being pretty stupid. If we rewind to Jim Crow, whites didn’t want blacks to vote. It didn’t matter who blacks voted for. They simply didn’t want them voting. So voter intimidation had a discernible target. But in this case, how could the Panthers discern whom to target for intimidation? It just doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen but it doesn’t make sense.

    What Rabbit, Tigre and others have repeatedly overlooked is that I said Holder had no business interfering in the proper execution of local and state law. I still maintain if you want to measure threat caught on video, the congressman beats the Black Panthers any day. And … you are conveniently ignoring that Tigre asked me to judge the case on the video alone. Then when I do, you toss a bunch of article links at me. That moves the goal posts gentlemen.

  • 209. dead rabbit  |  July 6, 2010 at 10:54 am

    “Are we to assume they were only intimidating white voters?”

    First of all, absolutely not. When the ’67 Detroit Riots went down, the Black Panthers and other black militant groups threatened to burn down all black owned businesses that didn’t write the phrase “Soul Brother” in the window. Of course, by the end of the riot, many of those businesses got burnt down as well. (The Rabbit’s family said fuck that and fought. I wonder how many my Grandpa killed?)

    Second of all, you seem to be forgetting this is a poll center. This isn’t a rally, it’s not some random street corner.

    It is where the idea of democracy becomes tangible. Brute force, rogue in nature, has no business being anywhere near a polling booth.

    Following your logic, hate groups could set up shop, armed with billy clubs, at any polling station where the registered voting demographic is deemed as unlikely targets by said hate groups.

    Come on, man.

    Lastly, while I feel you are stretching right now, you are at least using at least some sort of reason.

    I’ m not going to call you a liar becuase I disagree with you.

    Can you at least see how frustrating it is for us when you and hippieprof start using arguments that consist of claiming you have no idea if they are even black panthers? When pressed you try to convince us you don’t even know what black panthers look like. In hippieprofs case, as another poster rightfully pointed out, he has provided us with dozens of examples of academic research on race relations in America. And now claims he doesn’t even know who a black panther is when showed one? A college professor?

    I know hippieprof wrote a blog about the being tagged a liar in debate. Yet, if I didn’t call bull shit, I become the liar!

    I’m not passive aggressive in real life, I’ll be damned if I will be online.

    That’s the issue.

    Blowing smoke up our ass makes it difficult to read your blog.

    Seriously, can you see how infuriating this is to us?

  • 210. dead rabbit  |  July 6, 2010 at 10:57 am

    at least i didn’t write at least 7 times

  • 211. El Tigre  |  July 6, 2010 at 11:06 am

    “[Y]ou are conveniently ignoring that Tigre asked me to judge the case on the video alone. Then when I do. . . ”

    No you didn’t. You feigned ignorance almost to the point of denying they were black. All I had done was turn your question to BiW, verbatim, on you. No goal post moving in the least.

    The larger problem I have is the left’s overwhelming self-righteousness and false sense of superior awareness when it comes to race relations; to be protected at all costs, including avoiding obvious truths.

    You, Hippie and G-chin all took the same tack. To make the point, here’s a little gem from G-chin at No. 72:

    “What’s wrong with angry and bitter black men?

    There are angry and bitter white men on my teevee every Sunday morning, and every night during the week. But nobody worries about angry and bitter white men.

    Only about angry and bitter black men.”

    You all should reflect on that quite Freudian logic. It’s no different than what I hear frequently from the left. I doubt you see any problems with it.

  • 212. Rutherford  |  July 6, 2010 at 11:51 am

    I doubt you see any problems with it.

    It’s not so much a matter of seeing a problem with it as it is understanding it. Gray makes a point you would prefer to avoid.

    If the militias we see sprouting up all over the country were predominantly black, the concern about them would be 10 fold. Now, quite frankly, I am very glad to live in a country where predominantly white militias still give people the heebie-jeebies but I have no doubt, if these groups were predominately black, all hell would break loose.

    Gray is saying that a billie club in the hands of a black man gets viewed differently from the same case with a white man. Maybe Gray is living in the past? Hasn’t gotten the 60’s out of his system? I’m not so sure.

  • 213. Rutherford  |  July 6, 2010 at 11:54 am

    FWIW, Rabbit you are absolutely right. Any show of force, implied or explicit near a polling place is unAmerican and abhorrent.

    In fact here in Middlebury (and perhaps elsewhere) folks with campaign signs, etc. (completely non-violent) are not allowed within a certain perimeter of a polling place. (Maybe 200 feet or something like that, I don’t recall the exact number.)

  • 214. hippieprof  |  July 6, 2010 at 11:55 am

    Can you at least see how frustrating it is for us when you and hippieprof start using arguments that consist of claiming you have no idea if they are even black panthers? When pressed you try to convince us you don’t even know what black panthers look like.

    Do you know how frustrating it is to be wrongly accused of something, and unable to defend yourself. No – I didn’t catch that those were Black Panthers.

    I would rather be called a fool than a liar. So – feel free to call me a fool for not knowing. But cut the liar shit.

  • 215. Rutherford  |  July 6, 2010 at 11:56 am

    LOL P.S. Rabbit … no you are not passive-aggressive. That much is for sure. :-)

  • 216. hippieprof  |  July 6, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    Yeah – and one more thing. I condemned the behavior I saw in the video – repeatedly. I doesn’t matter if they were Black Panthers or not – I did not condone the behavior.

    I did state that I wasn’t sure a conviction was possible based on the evidence in the video. This was not based on my condoning the behavior – it was based on the standards of evidence I have seen operate in courtrooms. But – I am a non-expert there, so I asked BiW for his expert opinion.

    To me, that was it for the issue. I have already said that I think Holder made a mistake here.

    What more are you looking for?

  • 217. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 6, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    “Do you know how frustrating it is to be wrongly accused of something, and unable to defend yourself.”

    Yes, those of us who have been labelled as nazis and racists because we speak out against the current administration know all about it.

  • 218. dead rabbit  |  July 6, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    It’s not what I’m looking for. It’s what I’m looking at, brother.

    And that is a pattern of some of the most insipid stretches I’ve ever seen a partisan make in defense of team mate Holder.

    Rutherford, write another blog post so I get out of this oxygen starved and stale white ivory tower. The Rabbit doesn’t like it in here.

  • 219. Rutherford  |  July 6, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    Rabbit, I’ve got a couple of ideas brewing. A quickie and a more complicated one inspired by Tex. Shame he won’t come around to read it. ;-)

  • 220. dead rabbit  |  July 6, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    “If the militias we see sprouting up all over the country were predominantly black, the concern about them would be 10 fold. “-r, greychin

    The outrage of a white supremacist group, armed, thugging around a poll center on election night would get 10 times the air play.

    Hell, maybe it even should.

    But, damn, you guys sure do run to your little victim-hood corner fast, money in hand, where some race pimp sells you guys dime bags of red herring.

    We don’t smoke that shit, thanks anyways.

  • 221. El Tigre  |  July 6, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    “If the militias we see sprouting up all over the country were predominantly black, the concern about them would be 10 fold. . .

    “Gray is saying that a billie club in the hands of a black man gets viewed differently from the same case with a white man.”

    Huh? Which is it? Here, the concern over the black man (if there ever was any) has been swept under the rug.

    By contrast, the narrative from the left is all about the fear of “angry bitter white guys” challenging this administration’s agenda. You know, the KKK-dominated-gun-toting Tea Party, middle Americans that cling to guns and bibles, the ones that kick in the doors of Harvard professors, the new militias, blah, blah, blah. . . Violent racists. All of them. Thank God the vigilant government is here to protect all of us from the angry white man born in 2008.

    We got it. You’re incapable of making it past the comfort of your threatened-victim sanctuary when your narrative is challenged. No need to interpret (reconstruct) G-chin’s breathtakingly insipid commentary. It’s time for a new post.

  • 222. dead rabbit  |  July 6, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    “If the militias we see sprouting up all over the country were predominantly black, the concern about them would be 10 fold.”-R, greychin

    The funny thing is, we have seen black “militias” sprout up non stop through out almost every black urban area for 40 years, particularly since it was discovered that cocaine cooked with baking soda makes quite the hit.

    Gangs.

    Organized.

    Armed.

    They have infiltrated law enforcement, the military, prison administration, schools.

    They are sophisticated. They run websites, have charity fronts, and amazingly even pulled off being glamorized by BET!

    And while I can’t say every set is all black, I sure can say most of their victims are.

    But Rutherford, always concerned about the black man, has never once, never once wrote a blog about the constant murder of young black men by these “militias”.

    Yup, lets not talk about those militias, made up of millions.

    Lets talk about the few hundred dudes in rural Michigan who have become perverse in their love of paint ball weaponry and dried, non-perishable food products.

  • 223. Rutherford  |  July 6, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    Lets talk about the few hundred dudes in rural Michigan who have become perverse in their love of paint ball weaponry and dried, non-perishable food products.

    Seriously, you do have a way with words. :-)

  • 224. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 6, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    Here’s a question for the entire group.

    The DoJ is expected to formally challenge the AZ law today. While AZ claims its law allows it to assist the federal government in enforcing federal law (AZ is not attempting to deport, only catch, those who break federal immigration laws), the DoJ is going to claim that enforcement is the job of the Fed.

    Here is the question…

    If it is found that AZ does not have the right to assist the Fed in enforcing federal law as applied to immigration, should state and local law enforcement still be expected to assist the Fed in enforcing federal law as applied to bank robbery or kidnapping?

    If state and local law enforcement can’t go after suspected illegal immigrants, can they go after suspected bank robbers or kidnappers who cross state lines (both of which fall under federal jurisdiction)?

  • 225. Rutherford  |  July 6, 2010 at 2:09 pm

    On a different note, I got this from my Word-a-day email today and I thought the statistic was rather interesting (see bold part):

    bibliolatry:

    Excessive devotion to the Bible, especially to its literal interpretation.

    ETYMOLOGY:
    From Greek biblio- (book) + -latry (worship).

    USAGE:
    Fifty percent of college graduates expect Jesus to be here any day now. We are, says Paul Boyer, almost unique in the Western World in combining high educational levels with high levels of bibliolatry.”
    Martin Gardner; Waiting for the Last Judgement; The Washington Post; Nov 8, 1992.

  • 226. Hucking Fypocrites  |  July 6, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    Not for nothing, but every generation since the creation of Christianity has believed that the return of Christ was going to happen during their lifetime.

  • 227. Rutherford  |  July 7, 2010 at 1:31 am

    HP … heads up … there’s a new article posted. :-)

  • 228. Rutherford  |  July 7, 2010 at 1:33 am

    Not for nothing, but every generation since the creation of Christianity has believed that the return of Christ was going to happen during their lifetime.

    Does this say more about the religion or the folks who practice it?

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