Obama Oval Office Address: Even Left Says Epic Fail

I noticed recently that one of my conservative readers started quoting from liberal media sources, sources that he had previously derided. He helped me understand why and tonight I got a full blast of confirmation. You see, the liberal media is starting to turn on Barack Obama and conservative Obama-haters everywhere no longer need to seek refuge at Fox “News” to get their daily fix of Obama-ass-kicking. (That’s Obama being kicked, not the other way around.)

Tonight, Obama spent about 15 minutes broadcasting from the Oval Office his plan of action for the Gulf of Mexico oil spill disaster. Oh wait a minute, there was no discernible plan discussed. Forget O’Reilly, Hannity or Limbaugh. Keith Olbermann, yes the left’s answer to the Fox stable of opinion-meisters, was nearly apoplectic at the conclusion of Obama’s address tonight. He wasn’t alone. His guests, Chris Matthews and Howard Fineman piled on too.

Nearly everyone on the left defined tonight as Obama’s opportunity to make the Kennedy-moon-mission speech with the new mission being energy independence. It didn’t happen. At one moment it came close. You see, Kennedy said we would put a man on the moon and bring him safely back to Earth. He threw down the gauntlet and let the details take care of themselves. That is what a President is supposed to do. He is NOT supposed to tell the American people we will change our energy policy …. I don’t know how but it is going to happen. What do you mean, you don’t know how? You don’t need to say that. That is not what we want to hear from you. Then, to add insult to injury the ghosts of George W and Sarah Palin appeared as Obama told us that with God’s help everything would work out. Is God a new cabinet appointee? Is prayer a substitute for good domestic policy? Is the Holy Father going to clean up MMS?

From day 1, Obama could kiss conservative support goodbye. His only hope of political survival is a loyal base. This base is looking for boldness. We didn’t see it tonight. Obama truly could have skipped tonight’s address and he’d be no worse off.

Memo to the President: You know you are in trouble when conservatives eagerly tune to Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow to see you get eviscerated.

Respectfully,
Rutherford

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477 thoughts on “Obama Oval Office Address: Even Left Says Epic Fail

  1. Not sure if I am that “conservative reader,” but if so, I did not “tune in” to MSNBC. That clip is already making the rounds on the righty blogs I frequent, and will be viral across the nation by tomorrow.

  2. His only hope of political survival is a loyal base.

    That’s one out of five voters – hardly political survival. You’ll never leave this empty suit because you sold your soul to get him there.

    The only time Conservatives turn into the shills at MSNBC is to watch the pretentious assholes eat their own words. You may think they’re the spin meisters favorable to O’Reilly, Beck or Limbaugh. But their audience is minimal compared those you’ve listed.

    Obama was a benefactor of serendipity, a fawning media, an anger at Bush and the Iraq War, a wish for a minority to rise to power, and a bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers. The stars aligned and even then, Obama’s win not was nearly as overwhelming as you wanted to believe. You guys and Obama greatly misread the message. Once the thrill of electing a well spoken black man wore off, and people recognized though well spoken, Obama highly overrated, a blank slate of meaningless platitudes, narcissistic, and dangerously incompetent, the thrill subsided for all but the hardcore MSNBC crowd.

    I tell you this personally Rutherford. And I mean this. Obama is the target of my personal insult, but it is really the MSM and MSNBC/NBC types that I disdain. Obama is simply the figurehead of a failed philosophy.

    It was never anything personally against you. But the lies that sold this man to the Presidency, the insults and anti-Americanism after 9/11, the dissing of our military once the war was declared, deserve to be punished severely. The MSM is going down the tubes quickly and carries little or no respect. The Left publishing in disarray and going bankrupt.

    And the Progressive philosophy has shown once again it is a miserable and predictable failure. This is simply history repeating itself.

    Obama was the best thing that happened to the Republican party in along time. They had lost their way. It forced the Repubs to start getting rid of Democratic lite RINOS, recognize their own spending out of control, and possibly return to Reagan. That still remains to be seen. It made Libertarians recognize there is a huge difference between the Republican and Democratic party. And it made moderate Democrats sit up and take notice.

  3. That still remains to be seen.

    Yes Tex, it does indeed. If GOPhers take over in November, we will see just how “different” things will be for the remaining two years. The cynic in me thinks “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”.

  4. D.R.,

    Where was this “cynic” in the year 2008 and 2009?

    Never look a gift horse in the mouth. :smile: The fact we got this post is nothing short of a small miracle. You’ll never see this type of honesty over at that feckless Graychin’s blog, I’m sure.

  5. I have to wonder, if MSNBC didn’t slam the speech…..would we see this criticism from Rutherford and Greychin?

  6. You know DR, I can’t speak for Gray but its getting a bit old this accusation of yours that all I do is parrot MSNBC.. You’ve said it numerous times.

    You’ll have to take my word for it but when Obama started invoking prayer at the end of his address my jaw dropped. When Rachel Maddow expressed the same concern later that evening, I said bingo.

    The bottom line, I am likely to agree with the folks on MSNBC just as you are likely to agree with the folks on Fox. The difference between us is I watch the pundits and you don’t.

  7. Where was this “cynic” in the year 2008 and 2009?

    I was inspired. Maybe you’ve seen a much tougher life than I have DR, but I swear in all the time I’ve “known” you I’ve never seen you inspired or optimistic about a damn thing. I appreciate that you’re a straight-shooter but damn I sure would like to see the glass be half-full with you for a change.

  8. I watched Obama’s speech last night. I didn’t watch MSNBC afterward – we watched a movie.

    I didn’t need Olbermann and Maddow to tell me that the speech was an epic fail. It was obvious. It reminded me of Jimmy Carter. At least Obama didn’t use the phrase “moral equivalent of war.” But he came close.

    You guys who are starting to tune out Faux and get news from other sources – don’t you know how dangerous that is? You might hear something that would cause you to question your dogma.

  9. I get inspired by the Hiawatha Forest, 12 point bucks, a batting average over 330, the miracle of life and the 1968 GTO. Not another man’s swinging sack.

    Funny, up until about a week ago it was nothing but lectures on “sausage making.”.

    I will go as far to say that being INSPIRED by any politician is a dangerous thing.

    The Rabbit gives all of ‘um the stink eye.

    Democracy sucks, the other options only being suckier.

    I’m positive outside the political realm.

    The rabbit picks up boulders just to throw them. I love life and thank God for it.

    Oops, I said God. How middle America dumb of me.

  10. For better or worse, I get my news from the Rutherford Lawson Blog, NPR and the Drudge Report

    No time for cable news. The shit bores me as I am more into bread circuses.

    Tigers are battling for first place.

  11. I’m positive outside the political realm.

    I doubt that. I think that a person’s view of politics and government is a pretty good window into his psyche.

    The people I know who are real assholes about politics are pretty much always assholes in every other way too.

  12. I will go as far to say that being INSPIRED by any politician is a dangerous thing.

    On this, you are probably wiser than I. Heck, I still romanticize the 60′s, a decade I was too young to participate in.

    When it comes to sausage making, I can tolerate some gov’t game playing. What hurts is seeing the “vision” die. I’m not seeing the boldness anymore.

  13. Well I’m gonna blow the paradigm here.
    I didn’t watch the speech but I have read the transcript from the White House
    I find some points that are less truthful such as the spin on Salazar’s efforts but in all it was pretty much an Obama speech/presentation. He isn’t a leader,that’s just a sad truth. He is a total delegator and reconciler.This is evident here too.
    I don’t know…I think the speech is ok. I also won’t fault Obama on reaching out to the affected well documented alliance with faith. Calm down R!

  14. I didn’t need Olbermann and Maddow to tell me that the speech was an epic fail. It was obvious. It reminded me of Jimmy Carter. At least Obama didn’t use the phrase “moral equivalent of war.” But he came close.” — Chin

    You so make me laugh. First off, source your copies, like EPIC FAIL, thank you, you’re welcome.

    Let’s see, the battleplan comment was nice, especially since he’s looking to the Secretary of the Navy to develop the Gulf Restoration plan. I guess the Secretary of the Interior is too busy dealing with MMS and the like. Tell me, if fixing institutions like the MMS were Salazar’s #1 priority, then at 18 months and counting, what has he been doing?

    But let’s go back to the ‘moral equivalent of war‘ premise, which was ever present throughout the speech. Like 17,000 National Guard troops in the cleanup, but we’ve never really seen them cleaning up, its always been BP, so what are they doing?

    And while we’re chatting about who’s doing what, can someone explain this little canumdrum to me- if the Fed has been in charge of the crisis from day one, then the fed is also responsible for the failure in the crisis thus far. You can’t say he’s been there and then absolve him for what happened there.

    Everyday, this thing has gotten worse and worse. Even as we got the “cap” on the pipe, we learned that the amount of oil spilling out was far great than we ever suspected before. Frankly, we can’t point to many, if any, successes to dealing with the crisis thus far- and Obama owns that.

    Ken Salazar and Janet Napolitano both should be fired over this, and ultimately, Obama will be fired because of it too.

  15. If Bongo makes one more mention of “Nobel Prize Winner” Steven Chu, I’m going to puke.

    The prize winning physicist didn’t understand why oil was still leaking after they placed the cap. This is what happens when you put academia in place of the real world experience. Not worth a shit.

    P.S. – I only tune into MSNBC when I know the news is terrible for Bongo. It brings me great pleasure to watch Ogremann and Racial drown in remorse and sorrow. Two despicable propagandists who will one day go down in flames like Air America and be relegated to Rosie O’Donnell stupidity status.

  16. Ken Salazar and Janet Napolitano both should be fired over this, and ultimately, Obama will be fired because of it too.

    Agreed – both of these jackboots need to go now, along with Holder. The three stooges in action. Salazar needs steel-toed boot to the head, Janet N. should have been fired for her idiocy about “the system worked”, and Eric Holder is a racist and incompetent to boot.

    They can all attend the “I’m and Obama Scholar” with the rest of the American hatin’, Muslim loving crew.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/06/16/school_kids_chant_i_am_an_obama_scholar.html

  17. Just found out that instead of 40,000 gallons of oil leaking a day, the number is closer to 2.1 million gallons per day- 60 times more than what we were previously told.

    How does the Gulf survive this?

  18. Ape, you’re going to hurt your shoulder patting yourself on the back like that.

    “Epic Fail” came from Rutherford’s headline. I thought that would be obvious.

  19. Just found out that instead of 40,000 gallons …

    G, wasn’t that 40,000 barrels per day? I know a lot of TV folk have been getting barrels and gallons confused.

  20. “The oil giant brought its top brass, and even came armed with a top Clinton administration Justice Department official, Jamie Gorelick, whose name was floated as a possible attorney general pick for Obama.”
    Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0610/38612.html#ixzz0r2ORcCvj

    HOLY FUCKING SHIT BATMAN!!!

    Jesus Christ, how fucked up is this Administration?! For the love of God, why would anyone have ANYTHING to do with this bitch?

    Remember this:

    At issue is the pre-Patriot Act “wall” [http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper441/documents/5nkzph1t.pdf] that prevented communication between intelligence agents and criminal investigators–a wall, Mr. Ashcroft said, that meant “the old national intelligence system in place on September 11 was destined to fail.” The Attorney General explained:

    “In the days before September 11, the wall specifically impeded the investigation into Zacarias Moussaoui, Khalid al-Midhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi. After the FBI arrested Moussaoui, agents became suspicious of his interest in commercial aircraft and sought approval for a criminal warrant to search his computer. The warrant was rejected because FBI officials feared breaching the wall.

    “When the CIA finally told the FBI that al-Midhar and al-Hazmi were in the country in late August, agents in New York searched for the suspects. But because of the wall, FBI headquarters refused to allow criminal investigators who knew the most about the most recent al Qaeda attack to join the hunt for the suspected terrorists.

    “At that time, a frustrated FBI investigator wrote headquarters, quote, ‘Whatever has happened to this–someday someone will die–and wall or not–the public will not understand why we were not more effective and throwing every resource we had at certain ‘problems.’ http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004956

    And if that wasn’t bad enough, let’s fast forward a few years…

    Fannie Mae reported paying the following executive bonuses in 1998: chairman and chief executive James A. Johnson received $1.932 million; Franklin D. Raines, chairman-designate, received $1.11 million; Chief Operating Officer Lawrence M. Small received $1.108 million; Vice Chairman Jamie S. Gorelick received $779,625; Chief Financial Officer J. Timothy Howard received $493,750; and Robert J. Levin, an executive vice president, received $493,750.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32845-2005Apr6.html

    This bitch has been directly connected to the cause of two of the most devastating catastrophes to affect this nation in the last decade, now she’s involved in this oil spill? Are you fucking serious?

  21. How does the Gulf survive this? Maybe it doesn’t. This could be so bad that the Gulf will be dead for the rest of all of our lifetimes.

    BP’s shortcuts risked not only their entire company, but also the entire south coast of the United States. And the Minerals Management Service looked the other way.

  22. “I doubt that. I think that a person’s view of politics and government is a pretty good window into his psyche.”-greychin

    Hey, self centered fembot in sandals, most people are just a touch above being apolitical. They work all day and don’t have time to pontificate on the latest political intrigue. They give it some thought around election day, little water cooler talk here and there. And that’s it. So what are they? Mindless dummies?

    But, I do find you can make some stereotypes from a person’s political persuasion. Lefty upper middle class white people never offer to buy a round, marry and cold ,ugly women with big dark plastic frames around their thick lenses, rarely serve in the military, never stop to help someone with a flat tire, analyze dirty jokes way too much and get real weird and conscious around black people who they hardly ever see and make sure they live far, far away from.

    Don’t you see? Does it ever concern you that you could never hang out with my community, my buddies?

    How come you can’t break bread with the proletariat you claim to fight for so much?

    Fly up here and try to fit in. I know. Come hangout with my Thursday night softball team. More then half vote Dem. Slam dunk, right? Steal workers, cops, two teachers, construction workers. A few black dudes. Couple Arabs. We should all be your best friends.

    How is it that the nasty racist Rabbit will be happily drinking beer Thursday after the game with the opposing team, all black people?

    No political talk. No Obama talk. We’ll just be bull shitting. Could you do it, comrade?

    Why is is that you can’t navigate your way through blue collar America?

    The funny thing, I could out my real identity and prove to your sorry ass that I’m not the negative asshole you portray me as.

    It’s quite simple. Politics attracts ambitious, narcissistic weirdos. Always has, always will. The wonderful thing is we have rule of law and democracy that stops the Rabbit from slitting your throat to get my guy in power. Outside of that, I’ll let you sing their praises and I will tread on trying to make my way in this world seeing these dudes for who they really are.

  23. BiW, way off topic, but thank you for coming to my defense at the Hostages. It certainly isn’t my intention to turd-drop but I must confess that I find the environment challenging … not politically but logistically. It’s a huge community who contribute VERY actively, so much so that I can’t subscribe to comments without wrecking my inbox. So my only way to track the convo is to simply refresh my browser now and then. Keeping up with the Hostages is a full time job. :-)

    P.S, I’m also not thrilled with the comments box which in my browser is rendered as white text on a black background. But that’s just me.

  24. Gorilla …. I stand corrected. Since you used “epic fail” in a comment on my blog, you obviously invented the phrase. To what address should I send the royalty check?

  25. What I doubted was this: “I’m positive outside the political realm. ”

    It doesn’t have to do with level of interest in politics, or even with left or right. But when someone is as deeply cynical as you are about… well, just about anything you ever talk about here – then I’m betting heavily that the negativity carries over into other aspects of your life.

    Rabbit – you’re a really negative guy!

  26. You are the ultimate cynic. You deem it better to kill a baby in the womb then to let it have a shot at life. I hate to bring abortion in it, but when it comes to sick fuck negativity, to me, there is nothing more hopeless then your take on the very essence of life.

  27. Keeping up with the Hostages is a full time job.

    Yes, it is. And it can be very ego-bruising as well, but the regulars are a family, and all is fair when you fight with family. Now if you’re an outsider and you fight with the family….I wouldn’t want to be you.

  28. You deem it better to kill a baby in the womb then to let it have a shot at life.

    I do? Actually, I don’t.

    I don’t poke in my nose and impose my opinions into other people’s private matters. I prefer to people decide for themselves what is best for themselves and for their own offspring. You have a problem with that?

    I don’t like abortion and I would like to see its occurrence drop to zero, but this is an area in which you and the government should mind your own business and leave people the hell alone.

    So Rutherford is right. Label me “pro-choice.”

  29. Rutherford, I watched Morning Joe this morning not having seen the speech last night. I knew this would be a turning point for you and many other libs. But not because the speech sucked. In fact, after having read the text, I agree with Alfie that the content wasn’t all that bad give the task at hand.

    It was the reaction of the worthless bimbo, Mika, who struggled to “defend” Obama that told me exactly what was going on. I think she sounded to libs like she and her colleagues have sounded to the right along. Completely out of touch.

    What I believe has caused the reaction in you is the same for others in the MSM, including the tingly-legged Matthews. An epiphany that you have invested too heavily in a false prophet. Like a reformed cult member, there will be a desire to create distance from the inevtablle shame of having been so easily sucked in. Hence hyper critcism to appear deceived rather than stupid.

    Obama’s toast.

  30. Rutherford, I watched Morning Joe this morning not having seen the speech last night. I knew this would be a turning point for you and many other libs. But not because the speech sucked. In fact, after having read the text, I agree with Alfie that the content wasn’t all that bad give the task at hand.

    It was the reaction of the worthless bimbo, Mika, who struggled to “defend” Obama that told me exactly what was going on. I think she sounded to libs like she and her colleagues have sounded to the right along. Completely out of touch.

    What I believe has caused the reaction in you is the same for others in the MSM, including the tingly-legged Matthews. An epiphany that you have invested too heavily in a false prophet. Like a reformed cult member, there will be a desire to create distance from the inevitable shame of having been so easily sucked in. Hence hyper criticism to appear deceived rather than stupid.

    Obama’s toast.

  31. Oh, the gulf is no more ruined than if a dog pissed in the swimming pool and we called the pool ruined.

    They’ll be capturing most of the oil within a week, most of the coasts haven’t been touched, the media has blown this completely out of proportion. The Persian Gulf encountered something similar and it didn’t ruin anything.

    Oil floats and they’ll skim most of it the doesn’t disintegrate. Close the rest of the beaches affected for the summer, build the berms and as soon as the oil floats up on the shore, cover it with a bulldozer.

    Tar balls are a natural occurrence of the Gulf. Picking them up is a waste of time. Assuming they get the hole plugged at the end of July and capture most of the oil between now and then, I’ll bet money in two years, there will be little evidence of the spill.

  32. They’ll be capturing most of the oil within a week, most of the coasts haven’t been touched, the media has blown this completely out of proportion. The Persian Gulf encountered something similar and it didn’t ruin anything.

    Oil floats and they’ll skim most of it the doesn’t disintegrate. Close the rest of the beaches affected for the summer, build the berms and as soon as the oil floats up on the shore, cover it with a bulldozer.

    Tar balls are a natural occurrence of the Gulf. Picking them up is a waste of time. Assuming they get the hole plugged at the end of July and capture most of the oil between now and then, I’ll bet money in two years, there will be little evidence of the spill.” – Tex

    Couldn’t disagree with you more on this Tex. I’ve been hearing the ‘within a week’ metric for a couple months now and they’ve yet to come through. I’ll believe it when I see it.

    I’m not sure if you’ve spent much time in the Persian Gulf, I have. I’ve scuba dived the Gulf and it is one of the most lifeless bodies of water I’ve ever seen. Coral is dead, few real fish sanctuaries and the entire ecosystem pretty much sucks. I won’t blame it on oil, per se, but the Gulf is a great example of what happens when a resource is not managed. I’m not an environmentalist, rather, I’m a conservationist, and they’ve done a piss poor job of managing the Gulf.

    But more importantly, most of the oil right now from the spill is not on the surface of the water, it is sitting on the bottom of the Gulf as a result of the oil dispersants that were/are used. What makes this serious is that it is extremely detrimental to the oyster and shrimp fisheries, it’ll also kill the coral environments, which will directly affect the fish fisheries.

    If the wetlands are killed, it will have devastating affects on those ecosystems, particularly the waterfowl populations that use the wetlands for wintering and reproduction.

    I’ll take you bet though, since Prince William Sound’s fisheries still haven’t recovered 20 years later.

  33. “I don’t poke in my nose and impose my opinions into other people’s private matters. I prefer to people decide for themselves what is best for themselves and for their own offspring”

    Following your own logic, the government should let me decide my quarrel with you any way I desire. Who are they to get into my business. I pick kicking your ass so bad that you spend the rest of your life drooling.

    Yeah, I’d like to see ass beatings that result in permanent drooling be withered down to next to nothing, too. But who am I to get into people’s business.

    Oh wait a minute. That would totally neglect your right to life.

    Look at you, coming at me like some kind of Libertarian. What a joke. I’ve read your view on government. I know the nanny you like to suckle.

    Millions of babies killed becuase people want high def televisions and to eat out at Chile’s, and this is the one instance you want government to stay the fuck out of my face.

    You’re kind cracks me up. Tough guy, goin’ alone…..no need intervene on defenseless human beings.

    One day history will show you to be the savage that you are.

  34. Gorilla, I heard this same bullshit during the Exxon Valdez and how the Sound would never recover. You’re wrong that after the fact, Prince William Sound has pretty much recovered. From NOAA:

    Prince William Sound had substantially recovered from the largest oil spill in U.S. history in less than 15 years, not even a blip on a geologic timeline.

    Is it exactly like it was before? No. “Biologists consider the intertidal communities in Prince William Sound to be still recovering, but not completely recovered.” Is any ecosystem on Earth exactly the way it was 20 years ago, or 200 years ago?

    Then what do you suggest? Moratoriums on offshore drilling.

    There’s been 35,000 off shore holes drilled in the Gulf without incident, including 10,000 deep water wells, and there’s at a minimum 500,000 barrels of oil that leak naturally in the Gulf every year from natural leakage, continental drift, etc…

    Even with that, the Gulf of Mexico is one of the richest fishing grounds in the world. Comparing Prince William Sound with the Gulf is like comparing a pool to a lake.

    Your analogy doesn’t fit gorilla. We’re talking water that is mile deep. You don’t fish in mile deep water. I’ve been to the coast hundreds of times, and they fish in shipping channels were tankers dock – not that I would eat anything from that water, but many people do.

    The earth has an unbelievable capacity to heal itself.

    I’ll stick my bet.

  35. Tex, don’t put words in my mouth, especially when I’ve said that the moratorium is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

    Drill baby drill! BUT, my issue is with how this issue has been mismanaged from the start. We need Obama tyo stop passing the buck and blaming others and to focus on dealing with the issue at hand. We need to get the oil plume under the water captured ASAP before it can devestate the fisheries. We need to get the marshes protected ASAP before the oil penetrates too deeply and destroys the wetland habitat.

    So, what does that mean? That means the Jones Act should have been waived on day one. That we should have been soliciting help from other countries immediately. The the continued federal red tape preventing local jurisdictions from containing the spill should be cut. There are actually lots of things the fed could be doing right now, but aren’t, mostly because of incompetence. That is ultimately what has my goat, the blatant incompetence of this administration.

  36. Rabbit, my opinion about abortion isn’t exactly radical. It’s the majority opinion, and growing – and gradually catching up with the rest of the planet. For the most part, anti-abortion advocates are only trying to push their own religious dogma on to the rest of us. So I’m thankful that I live in a country without a state religion.

    Rag on me as a savage if you like, but history is going to be on my side in this debate.

    You called me “libertarian” – I’ll accept that when it comes to social issues. That makes me the polar opposite of those who call for free-market fundamentalism for corporations and in economic matters, while encouraging the government to mess in the private lives of legal persons other than corporations.

  37. My view on abortion came from simply investigating how its done and the state of a human being by the time its in the 2nd tri. Simple as that, dude. Do the research and at least witness with your own eyes what you deem acceptable for other people to do.

    Throw in why 95% of these things go down, and it’s simple.

    As for your “polling” data, the country as become much more pro-life over the last decade, not the other way around.

  38. That is utterly false. Pro-choice opinion is NOT growing in America. False. Your talking out of your ass.

  39. @ El Tigre…Thanks I appreciate the valdation that I’m not necessarily crazy. I also agree with your thoughts on Tingles et al.
    I’m curious. Is the handling of the BP incident an example of:
    a) Obama’s move to the center.
    b) his 3 am call and _______(your choice)
    c) Obama’s ego battling with other self issues.
    I’m open to a) since even though I don’t like him find him not dumb politically.I’m torn between b) and c). My b) being that he isn’t a leader but a reconciler (as noted earlier) and c) BHO REALLY over thinking things thus kinda screwing Jindal and the Netherlands offer and on and on.

  40. Gorilla, I’m not putting words in your mouth, nor am I minimizing the damage. I don’t disagree with anything you just wrote. What I do disagree with is the amount of damage being causes, assuming this well is shut in a month.

    But what I am saying is that while the cleanup monumental, and it possible the fisheries could be damaged for years, that has not been the record of oil spills, even in fresh water. If calmer heads don’t prevail, what will happen is that we’ll further cripple the economy on account of tourism being damaged for a year – not worth it. Let BP make up the damage in monetary terms to the coastal towns and reevaluate next spring. Libs may believe $5.00 gas a great thing – I know better.

    Now I have no idea what these dispersants are. Before this spill, I understood dispersant to be for all intents and purposes soap – at least the stuff I’ve felt and touched was. Undoubtedly they are using something else now. I never thought that a great idea from the start as I would prefer the oil remain at the surface (simple physics), but I’m not an oceanic chemist either. They understand something I don’t.

  41. For the most part, anti-abortion advocates are only trying to push their own religious dogma on to the rest of us.

    Or maybe some of us think that it is insane to think that a right to privacy trumps the 14th amendment. When people like Lawrence Tribe, Alan Dershowitz, and Cass Sunstein can’t even stomach the rationale behind the ruling, you know it was poorly grounded.

  42. Jim Stephen,

    Rabbit, my opinion about abortion isn’t exactly radical. It’s the majority opinion, and growing – and gradually catching up with the rest of the planet. For the most part, anti-abortion advocates are only trying to push their own religious dogma on to the rest of us.

    Would you like to retract that, or be proven wrong for the second time in less than a week? Because like slavery, you’ve got your opinions posing as fact.

  43. Rabbit, my opinion about abortion isn’t exactly radical. It’s the majority opinion, and growing…” — Chin

    Actually, its not.

    In March 2001, the pro-choice/pro-life split was 47% / 41%. In May 2010, the pro-choice/pro-life split is 45% / 47%.

    Once again, you demonstrate how much you don’t know.

    “With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?”

    Pro-choice/Pro-life
    5/3-6/10 45 / 47
    7/17-19/09 46 / 47
    5/7-10/09 42 / 51
    5/8-11/08 50 / 44
    5/10-13/07 49 / 45
    5/8-11/06 51 / 41
    5/2-5/05 48 / 44
    5/2-4/04 49 / 44
    10/24-26/03 48 / 45
    5/5-7/03 48 / 45
    5/6-9/02 47 / 46
    8/10-12/01 46 / 46
    5/10-14/01 48 / 42
    3/26-28/01 47 / 41

    http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

  44. More evidence of Chin’s complete and utter lack of touch with reality…

    “PRINCETON, NJ — A new Gallup Poll, conducted May 7-10, finds 51% of Americans calling themselves “pro-life” on the issue of abortion and 42% “pro-choice.” This is the first time a majority of U.S. adults have identified themselves as pro-life since Gallup began asking this question in 1995.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx

  45. Ape, the question “are you pro-choice or pro-life” is incredibly superficial.

    The very first question from your own selected link was: “Which of these comes closest to your views about abortion? A woman should be able to get an abortion if she decides she wants one no matter what the reason. Abortion should only be legal in certain circumstances, such as when a woman’s health is endangered or when the pregnancy results from rape or incest. OR, Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.”

    “Available no matter what the reason” is at 37%, up from 34% in 2007. “Illegal in all circumstances” is at 15%, down from 17% in 2007.

    You were saying?

  46. You said:
    “my opinion about abortion isn’t exactly radical. It’s the majority opinion, and growing”

    America said:
    ’51% of Americans calling themselves “pro-life” on the issue of abortion and 42% “pro-choice.”’

    That’s what I was saying. In typical leftist fashion, you go to hyperbole by focusing on extremes, which only goes to show how shallow your grip on reality is.

  47. No, what’s superficial Graychin is your ignorant, leftist cliche of “safe, legal and rare” with respect to your real desire of unfettered access to unrestricted abortion. A complete cop out, as are so many of your tired arguments.

    Like both BiC and I have asked your ilk with never a response, if there’s nothing wrong with abortion, why the need to always qualify it as rare?

    The other fact you failed to note in your response to Gorilla and Rabbit where you were completely wrong, is the premise that your opinion growing. Quite the contrary, the opinion of the aggregate population calling themselves pro-life is 50% greater now than fifteen years ago.

    That’s the only statistic one needs to note.

    Like liberalism, when abortion dragged from the dark into the light, it’s not very pretty.

  48. Why I don’t want you fuckers anywhere near my kids…

    Sick, disgusting, and unadulterated brain washing.

    School children are led by a teacher in a chant that begins with “I will be anything I want to be.”

    At one point during the incantation the teacher asks the students to repeat the phrase “I am an Obama scholar.”

    (from: Lincoln Bassett Middle School in New Haven, Connecticut)

    School Kids Chant: “I Am An Obama Scholar”

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/06/16/school_kids_chant_i_am_an_obama_scholar.html

  49. Tex, you are missing the fact that even I call myself “pro-life.” Who the hell is “anti-life”?

    When you take away the silly and emotionally-charged labels, you find that twice as many people favor abortion on demand as favor forbidding all abortions. As the poll pointed out, that gap is growing – rapidly. And younger people are less likely to favor banning abortion than are older people.

    Instead of focusing on those silly labels “pro-life” and “pro-choice” (whatever those mean), you need to take a harder look at the people who don’t answer “always” or “never” to the question of legal abortion. The “sometimes” group is very diverse and tends to judge the question case-by-case.

    Which is what I favor allowing pregnant women to do – be their own judge of their own case. Not you, not the Ape, not the Rabbit, and not me.

  50. if there’s nothing wrong with abortion, why the need to always qualify it as rare?

    There is nothing “wrong” with an appendectomy either, but I would prefer that no one in my family ever need or want one. You seem to think that getting an abortion is like visiting the tanning salon, but it isn’t. It’s hard – physically and emotionally.

    That’s why I would like for it to be rare.

  51. Bullshit, you’re not pro-life, you’re pro-abortion. In fact, you on the left have always been misidentified with the pro-choice mantra. Planned Parenthood isn’t pro-choice, it’s pro-abortion.

    The pro-life folks are more in line with the pro-choice mantra than anyone. And besides, most of the pro-life folks I know don’t want abortion to be illegal, but they sure as hell recognize that the loss of human life is pretty damn serious, and popping a pill after an evening of ‘love’ isn’t taking human life serious.

    It continues to confound me in how you on the left are so against the death penalty against a person who has made their choices in life, yet are so willing to kill someone who hasn’t made any choices yet. A baby- born or unborn- is the epitome of innocence, and you’re fine with killing that.

  52. Yet in California, a school cannot give an aspirin without parental consent, but can facilitate an abortion without parental notification or consent.

    How fucked up is that?

  53. Majority now say abortion- regardless of legality- is morally wrong.

    You have no leg to stand on…

    “Next, I’m going to read you a list of issues. Regardless of whether or not you think it should be legal, for each one, please tell me whether you personally believe that in general it is morally acceptable or morally wrong. How about abortion?”

    Morally acceptable / Morally wrong
    5/10-14/01 42 / 45
    5/3-6/10 38 / 50

    http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

  54. You seem to think that getting an abortion is like visiting the tanning salon, but it isn’t. It’s hard – physically and emotionally.

    No dumb ass, I don’t think abortion is like visiting a tanning salon. I’m reasonably sure I know more about biology and embryology than you’ll ever know. Matter of fact, I’ve been somewhat surprised at how poorly read you appear over these last six weeks.

    No, I think abortion is infanticide and explains why so many woman become depressed to the point of suicide after doing so. They’ve suddenly realized they’ve just butchered their own after listening to wicked shills like you, who convinced them its just a product of conception – a wart that can be removed. Except scum like you is never around to see the damage you’ve wrought afterward with your supposed progressive thought.

    You again are trying to flip the script midstream. Again, your original comment is clearly wrong. That’s twice in one week you’ve been caught that your talking points bogus.

    you find that twice as many people favor abortion on demand as favor forbidding all abortions.

    Okay, 1/3 of the people in America are abortion on demand proponents like you. 2/3 of them aren’t and want restrictions – and there are few if any restrictions on abortion as 45MM legalized scaldings, suctions, scissors in the skull, and limb removals attest.

    Your argument about young people is specious. 71% of them have no problem with teen age pregnancy either. Your argument supports amorality – a path you seem hell bent of following in every aspect of society. The 21st century man of turn on, tune in, drop out. I’m not sure you ever did grow up.

    But you have never made a statement more indicative of how shallow, how abjectly stupid, how jaded, and perverted your entire mindset than comparing an appendectomy to unborn child.

    I haven’t seen anybody volunteering for an appendectomy. I have no idea what you were intending to prove with that stupid analogy.

    You’re a reprehensible, self-absorbed lout explaining your laissez faire attitude about anything that doesn’t directly benefit or affect you. You’re not fooling anybody with your baloney. This isn’t the T-World board of dopes and you’re not faring very well sport.

  55. It was the reaction of the worthless bimbo, Mika, who struggled to “defend” Obama that told me exactly what was going on. I think she sounded to libs like she and her colleagues have sounded to the right along. Completely out of touch.

    Ahhhh but Tigre, you mislead our other readers here who don’t frequent MSNBC. I watched that Morning Joe also and who agreed with “bimbo” Mika? Joe Scarborough, that’s who. The lone conservative on MSNBC thought the speech was pretty decent. Granted he didn’t try to castrate Mike Barnicle the way Mika did, but he still defended Obama.

  56. Greychin could have easily said, “You know Rabbit, I was talking out of my ass when it came to my declaration that Americas is becoming more pro-choice.”

    Nope. He couldn’t do it.

    An insecure little man on the lake, isn’t he.

    I’ve been caught spouting off without fact. It’s not the end of the world, dude.

  57. What a difference 24 hours make. In retrospect, the most dead-on line in my article was:

    Obama truly could have skipped tonight’s address and he’d be no worse off.

    You see, today Obama got behind closed doors and b*tchslapped BP into putting the 20 billion into escrow, managed by an independent party (the same dude who managed the 9/11 fund). He also made sure workers impacted by the moratorium were taken care of. This is what Obama needed to do. He didn’t need to make a vague, toothless speech from the Oval office.

    The biggest message coming out of the past 24 hours is less talk, more action.

  58. Oh, the gulf is no more ruined than if a dog pissed in the swimming pool and we called the pool ruined.

    Please remember this comes from the man who is willing to play Russian roulette with climate change cos he thinks it is a liberal hoax to redistribute wealth. ;-)

  59. Rutherford, I thought that the line you quoted above was the most asinine statement I’ve ever read from Tex.

    And as you know, that covers a lot of territory.

  60. I’ve said that the moratorium is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

    Could someone please explain this to me?

    Challenger blows the f*ck up. What did we do? We temporarily stopped the damn program to regroup. Challenger wasn’t the first space shuttle. Several had gone before without incident. So by your reckoning, who cares that a few astronauts got microwaved. No need to stop and check out what happened.

    This is the same damn thing. Something in this well went horribly wrong. Eleven folks dead right off the bat. Now an ecosystem that is at least even in Tex’s estimation, slightly compromised. So there is a problem with our stopping for a bit and re-grouping? What are you afraid of, that the moratorium will give the “tree huggers” a window of opportunity to stop drilling altogether? What’s your motivation?

  61. Please remember this comes from the man who is willing to play Russian roulette with climate change cos he thinks it is a liberal hoax to redistribute wealth

    Please remember this is from a blog owner who willingly sold his soul to campaign for his messiah, who desperately believed in his messiah, who swore by the messiah, the messiah who has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he’s an even more feckless American President than Jimmy Carter. :wink:

    The fact that you’ll still spewing global warming nonsense after Climategate, Rainforest Gate, Himalaya Gate, and hockey stick gate shows that you are either dumb, blind, naive, gullible, unscientifically educated, useful idiot, or simply clueless. I like to think a smorgasbord of humanity’s worst idiocy and concerns.

    And when you are again proven wrong as you have been so, so many tmes the past 17 months, there will be silence, followed by another litany of outrageous claims, lies, and distortions not supported by fact, but by fiction. A dead fish floating downstream in a meaningless existence of no we are the ones.

    Your epitaph reading: I believed in “Hope & Change, the tombstone tagged with the word “REJECTED” in red paint. :twisted:

  62. thus kinda screwing Jindal and the Netherlands offer and on and on.

    Do we have a citation to back up this Netherlands thing? I had believed that and was pretty vocal about America’s tendency to not accept help from other countries but tonight I heard that we did indeed accept Dutch assistance. (It was in response to Sarah Palin’s disastrous appearance on, of all things, the O’Reilly Factor.)

    Here is a damning article that says we finally did accept Dutch help. http://biggovernment.com/jhoft/2010/06/16/change-53-days-later-obama-administration-decides-to-accept-dutch-offer-to-help-with-spill/

  63. Challenger blows the f*ck up. What did we do? We temporarily stopped the damn program to regroup. Challenger wasn’t the first space shuttle. Several had gone before without incident. So by your reckoning, who cares that a few astronauts got microwaved. No need to stop and check out what happened.

    What kind of a mind makes would make this type of analogy thinking it appropriate and clever?

    What in the hell does the Challenger have to do with a product that drives the world?

    And they wonder why Bongo can’t fix the economy?

  64. They understand something I don’t.

    Oh Tex, you poor naive pro-big-business ho! What they understand is that the less oil visible on the water’s surface, the less terrible the disaster looks and the harder it will be to estimate actual oil spilled. Legal liability is tied to barrels spilled. Much of what BP has been doing (from lying about amounts to using dispersants) has been to hide the actual amount of oil they’ve dumped into the Gulf.

  65. From the Ape’s own link: http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

    Abortion should be available no matter what the reason:

    May 2010 37%
    Dec 2007 34%

    Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances:

    May 2010 15%
    Dec 2007 17%

    From 17-point spread to a 22-point spread in just over two years. The “sometimes” and “undecided” responses totaled 49% in both 2010 and 2007.

    Some really interesting things appear when you drill down into those “sometimes” respondents. They admit to all kinds of circumstances in which they believe abortion is justified and in which it should be legally permissible. But they may still identify as “pro-life.”

    It turns out that abortion is a lot like spending cuts – many people oppose (favor) them in the abstract, but favor (oppose) them in specific cases. Tomorrow I’ll try to find some links about this for you. I know how anxiously you will await reading them.

    In the past I have answered polls saying that I am “pro-life.” Because I definitely am not “anti-life.” The anti-abortion absolutists have the more emotionally appealing label.

    Finally, do not make the mistake of equating the “morally wrong” answers with the opinions of the same people about whether or not abortion should be legal. Not everyone wants to legislate their own private morality – even if you guys do.

  66. Well Graychin,

    As I’m sure you aware by now, I find that any man and woman who believes that blogging at a dead blog tall cotton, quilting the most meaningful and fulfiling way to retire, believing paradise where God would plant the tube for an earthly enema, and the highlight of the week is eating Mexican food Friday night in Trailer Trash, OK, probably isn’t going to be whom I will value in deciding what’s asinine and what’s not.

    But then again, nihilists couples growing up kneeling at the altar of Carl Albert probably can be excused for not being terribly worldly.

  67. Why I don’t want you fuckers anywhere near my kids… Sick, disgusting, and unadulterated brain washing.

    G, either you’ve taken one too many shots to the head while serving our country or you’ve watched “The Manchurian Candidate” one too many times.

    WTF is wrong with you man? Take out “Obama Scholar” from the “chant” and tell me one single sentiment that would be harmful to your kid. Do you need to see the damn thing on paper, not recited by black children to see that it is self-affirming and positive?

    “I will be anything I want to be
    Doctor, lawyer, judge, journalist, writer, fire fighter, principal, President
    Anything I want to be
    If my mind can conceive it
    and my heart can believe it
    then I know I can achieve it
    For I am an Obama scholar
    I will strive to be outstanding, free,
    I will achieve, I will be motivated, with a positive attitude
    Mountain, move out of my way”

    I struck out the word Obama to challenge you to tell me the problem here? And what is an Obama scholar anyway? Do you know their lesson plan any better than I do? Maybe it simply means achieving against great odds?

    This reminds me of the brouhaha when Obama spoke to kids at the beginning of the school year and everybody got scared. I wrote an article about it at the time when I went ballistic.

    So I repeat …. what the hell is wrong with you man?

  68. :lol: Sorry, I thought that response in #87 to be so lame and so incredibly inept for the issue at hand to not require a scathing response.

    I can tell you what went wrong right now from listening to the oil rig hands own testimony. Greed and criminal negligence:

    (CBS) Down near the seabed is the blowout preventer, or BOP. It’s used to seal the well shut in order to test the pressure and integrity of the well, and, in case of a blowout, it’s the crew’s only hope. A key component is a rubber gasket at the top called an “annular,” which can close tightly around the drill pipe.

    Williams says, during a test, they closed the gasket. But while it was shut tight, a crewman on deck accidentally nudged a joystick, applying hundreds of thousands of pounds of force, and moving 15 feet of drill pipe through the closed blowout preventer. Later, a man monitoring drilling fluid rising to the top made a troubling find.

    “He discovered chunks of rubber in the drilling fluid. He thought it was important enough to gather this double handful of chunks of rubber and bring them into the driller shack. I recall asking the supervisor if this was out of the ordinary. And he says, ‘Oh, it’s no big deal.’ And I thought, ‘How can it be not a big deal? There’s chunks of our seal is now missing,’” Williams told Pelley.

    And, Williams says, he knew about another problem with the blowout preventer.

    The BOP is operated from the surface by wires connected to two control pods; one is a back-up. Williams says one pod lost some of its function weeks before.

    Transocean tells us the BOP was tested by remote control after these incidents and passed. But nearly a mile below, there was no way to know how much damage there was or whether the pod was unreliable.

    In the hours before the disaster, Deepwater Horizon’s work was nearly done. All that was left was to seal the well closed. The oil would be pumped out by another rig later. Williams says, that during a safety meeting, the manager for the rig owner, Transocean, was explaining how they were going to close the well when the manager from BP interrupted.

    “I had the BP company man sitting directly beside me. And he literally perked up and said ‘Well my process is different. And I think we’re gonna do it this way.’ And they kind of lined out how he thought it should go that day. So there was short of a chest-bumping kind of deal. The communication seemed to break down as to who was ultimately in charge,” Williams said.

  69. Gorilla,

    Preaching to the choir, but if Rutherford can’t find a problem with indoctrinating children in Obamese, why bother?

    He didn’t have a problem with Rev. Jeremiah Wright and his whitey hating, American hating hypocritical screed. If that didn’t bother Rutherford in the least, why should indoctrination of Obama worship in failing public schools be a concern?

    Umm, umm, umm. Barack Hussein Obama.

  70. So Tex – in the face of obvious greed and criminal negligence, would it be reasonable to suspend offshore drilling until we can make sure that some controls are in place to keep this from happening again next week?

    Or doesn’t it matter? After all, that oil in the Gulf is no worse than a dog peeing in your pool. Right?

    That must be why BP anted up $20 billion to clean up the dog pee.

  71. What in the hell does the Challenger have to do with a product that drives the world?

    Tex, what time is it down there …. around 11:30pm … you’re central right? You getting sleepy dude?

    Your “product that drives the world” comment shows mental exhaustion on your part. As you well know, the oil we produce in our neck of the woods is a gob of spit compared to what is coming in from parts far away. So a moratorium here would not stop “the product that drives the world”.

    Now that we put your melodrama aside …. how about addressing the technological question? When a disaster strikes, we stop and figure out what went wrong … especially when we discover that our disaster recovery procedures are piss poor. Do you really have a problem with that?

  72. The right-wing paranoia over letting children be exposed to Obama would be funny if it wasn’t so… so…. deranged!

    What – you’re afraid that the kids will grow up and think that YOU are the one who is full of shit? How could THAT happen?

  73. One thing i love about this blog is how old debates come back again and again like a case of the flu.

    OK, here’s a spin I don’t think I’ve ever put on it before. Question to the gang, but in particular to Rabbit whose reaction to abortion is emotional and therefore more moving to me than that of the dogma pushers.

    If a woman self-aborts, should she be imprisoned? Simple question, yes or no. (Don’t start with the medical issues about abortion 2nd or 3rd trimester …. if a woman induces a miscarriage as soon as she finds out she’s pregnant, should she go to jail?)

  74. if Rutherford can’t find a problem with indoctrinating children in Obamese, why bother?

    Tex when you and G go down this road, you just come up the perfect ass.

    Better to have kids chant

    I’m f*cked, I’m f*cked, I’m f*cked
    Might as well drop out cos
    I’m f*cked, I’m f*cked, I’m f*cked

    Yeah there’s a chant for you.

  75. Damn Graychin, no wonder you enjoy living in a cesspool and eating at El Beaner on Friday night.

    So Tex – in the face of obvious greed and criminal negligence, would it be reasonable to suspend offshore drilling until we can make sure that some controls are in place to keep this from happening again next week?

    Would you consider something that had been accomplished 10,000 times without incident until now a proven technology? Are you really this stupid?

    I just showed you dumbshit what caused the problem. The negligent mofos drilled right through the blow out preventer and pulverized the annular ring. To compound the problem, the criminal supervisor at BP refused to allow them to use heavy drilling mud to seal the pipe, and instead tried to short cut using the pressure of sea water before the casing and pipe could be sealed with concrete. Even screwing up the annular ring, they still could prevented the blowout. Instead, in the unmitigated greed to move the rig costing $1,000.000 a day, the asshole then tried to shortcut the process against the discretion of both TransOcean who owned the rig and Halliburton, who was responsible for plugging the hole.

    If some jihadist aims a RPG at a Cat Cracker and starts a refinery fire, are you assholes then going to require a moratorium for all refineries to determine what we could do to prevent it?

    Man, you are a Copperhead shill. Only somebody as thick as you would find Rutherford’s lame analogy to the Challenger fitting.
    Thank God our ancestors were brighter than Obama, Rutherford, and our resident bohunk. We’d still be living in canoes.

  76. Graychin, there was a time when kids were expected and encouraged to respect and even admire the President of the United States. What pisses me off big time is that if this were 55 years ago and the kids were singing about what a hero Eisenhower was, G and Tex would be lapping it up.

    The only sick motherf*cker around here is the person who lets his politics get in the way of his kid receiving positive reinforcement.

    It’s disgusting!

  77. Rutherford @ 98:

    That is the kind of question that drives “conservatives” crazy. A lot of people who identify as “pro-life” would say that women who self-abort (or take the “morning after” medication) should be left alone. But they’re still “pro-life,” and that’s all the information we need about their opinions. Right, Tex? :D

    Rabbit – while you’re at it, would you favor a federal law banning the “morning after” medication?

  78. Would you consider something that had been accomplished 10,000 times without incident until now a proven technology?

    Are you aware we usually don’t dig this deep down in the water or did that little detail escape you? Everyone has said this well presented unique challenges from a recovery perspective.

    And back to the Challenger oh sleepy one. The space shuttle was “proven technology” until the O-ring didn’t hold up., Truth be told there was some illegal crap going on there too as some folks warned about the O-rings and were silenced by bureaucrats who didn’t want to slow the mission down.

    Sheeeeeut, the more I think about it, the better the Challenger analogy gets. :-D

  79. Gosh, Tex. Self-regulation didn’t work very well in that case, did it?

    Wouldn’t you even agree to requiring adult supervision of offshore drilling? And waiting a while to make sure that it’s in place?

    Or do you argue with such obvious common sense just because it’s coming from me?

  80. OH Rutherford, :lol:

    Tex when you and G go down this road, you just come up the perfect ass.

    You finally found somebody that speaks your language for losers, and now you and Graychin are giving each other a hand job. I’ll pay for the room.

    This is what bothers me about hypocrites like you clowns. perfect example of why kids are fucked up in public schools. It’s the worst kind of supervisory abuse, but because its your failed hero, then its okay.

    “Red and yellow, black and white, All are precious in His sight, George Bush loves the little children of the world.”

    Your double standards are mind boggling.

  81. “You see, today Obama got behind closed doors and b*tchslapped BP into putting the 20 billion into escrow, managed by an independent party (the same dude who managed the 9/11 fund). He also made sure workers impacted by the moratorium were taken care of. This is what Obama needed to do. He didn’t need to make a vague, toothless speech from the Oval office.”

    OOOO. Captian Kickass removed his boot from the throat of BP long enough to bitchslap them. This attempt at tough cowboy talk is amusing after being told how much everyone was tired of hearing it.

    Bitchslapping BP is great, and all. But how about someone get on plugging the damn hole?

    And I mean the one in the Gulf, not on the back 9.

  82. Are you aware we usually don’t dig this deep down in the water or did that little detail escape you? Everyone has said this well presented unique challenges from a recovery perspective.

    What did you not understand about 10,000 times? You act like this is some first, or something unique. They’ve drilled in water twice this deep without incident. The fact they apparently had poor contingency plans in place is inexcusable and needs to be addressed. But there is little doubt this accident was sheer negligence.

    If you want to argue about why we are out that deep, look in the mirror. You fucked up eco freaks won’t allow them to drill where operations would be simpler – think ANWAR.

    I’d like to know when you ecological idiots are going to take your share of the blame?

  83. Or do you argue with such obvious common sense just because it’s coming from me?

    Non sequitur – you have no sense. You’ve been wrong here more than you’ve been right. When you start showing a lick of sense, then get back with me.

    As it is, you’re still a whiny shill.

  84. That is the kind of question that drives “conservatives” crazy. A lot of people who identify as “pro-life” would say that women who self-abort (or take the “morning after” medication) should be left alone. But they’re still “pro-life,” and that’s all the information we need about their opinions. Right, Tex?

    You two flatter yourself without content. Laughable. Self abort? Kind of along the lines of product of conception, hey? Or fetus? That makes it more palatable if you can treat a zygote or more likely an embryo as a POC?

    Seems to me to be a misnomer. You mean self-induced abortion Fritz, because I don’t think the woman is aborting self, though I can see where a swell guy like you would get confused?

    Self abort? Is that like suicide?

  85. “I’m f*cked, I’m f*cked, I’m f*cked
    Might as well drop out cos
    I’m f*cked, I’m f*cked, I’m f*cked”

    Have you seem the debt your agendas are going to leave them? They may as well learn that song now.

    “What pisses me off big time is that if this were 55 years ago and the kids were singing about what a hero Eisenhower was, G and Tex would be lapping it up.”

    What pisses me off is that if this were 5 years ago and the kids were singing about George W. Bush, you and Graychin would be showing the same outrage.

  86. Self abort? Is that like suicide?

    yeah I saw that dig coming. That’s why I clarified with “woman induces miscarriage”.

    Now, answer the question, sport! Should she go to jail if she deliberately causes her own miscarriage?

  87. “Red and yellow, black and white, All are precious in His sight, George Bush loves the little children of the world.”

    Was this ever chanted by schoolkids? If so I’m not aware of it. The fact that you can’t tell the difference between that and the affirmation which I actually transcribed for you above, shows that you are way off your game.

    Your Bush quote is about Bush. The “Obama scholar” chant is not about Obama. It is about achievement.

  88. I’m going to bed …. back to burning the candle at both ends again. Jeeesh. I’ll pick up this thread again tomorrow. Maybe after some sleep, Tex will begin to argue cogently again. :roll:

  89. Now, answer the question, sport! Should she go to jail if she deliberately causes her own miscarriage?

    What’s she going to do? Announce it on the public square? The ultimate red herring questions. Throw a monkey wrench into the debate of 45MM legalized infanticides, 95% of them for birth control.

    Here’s your answer. Nope.

    Quid pro quo. A zygote have any value to you, being you were one?

  90. Maybe after some sleep, Tex will begin to argue cogently again.

    Yeah, you’re so cogent your responding to questions that Graychin typed, not you. :lol:

    Face it Rutherford – the jig is up! You’re on the ready, fire, aim warpath tonight because Bongo is cratering.

    When you’re drowning, you don’t clutch no straw.

  91. Your Bush quote is about Bush. The “Obama scholar” chant is not about Obama. It is about achievement.

    Baloney – Farrakhan extraordinaire chanting Black Power in kiddie language. What’s with the skull cap he’s wearing.

    New Black Panther mentality for Jr.?

  92. Rutherford, is the moratorium on offshore drilling based on the loss of life or the gushing hole?

    The answer to that question determines how well your Challenger example works.

    It also determines if the moratorium is appropriate or not. If it is the latter, drilling at depths where holes can be plugged should still be allowed.

    Do you disagree with that assessment?

  93. “The “Obama scholar” chant is not about Obama. It is about achievement.”

    Says who? Did you suddenly get informed of their curriculum?

  94. Does anyone beside me see the irony in the claim that the term “Obama Scholar” is about achievement, when we have so little idea as to what kind of scholar he actually was?

  95. “Graychin, there was a time when kids were expected and encouraged to respect and even admire the President of the United States. What pisses me off big time is that if this were 55 years ago and the kids were singing about what a hero Eisenhower was, G and Tex would be lapping it up.”

    Never for living or sitting Presidents and certainly only for the few who have earned that respect. George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, these are men that deserve to have our praise and should be remembered for their great contributions to this land. To you mean to tell me that Obama belongs in the same company?

    It should disturb you when unrelated individual achievement is tied to a politician. They sing these songs in North Korea and China, they sang these songs in Soviet Russia.

  96. “I’m f*cked, I’m f*cked, I’m f*cked
    Might as well drop out cos
    I’m f*cked, I’m f*cked, I’m f*cked”

    That’s what my kids will be singing once they get to an age to understand the amount of debt this nation is in.

    The U.S. National debt per tax payer right now is $118,650.00. The total unfunded liability per citizen right now is $352,649.00. Do you think you’re gonna pay that bill?

    No number the WH has ever put out has stood to scrutiny, and has almost always been revised or contradicted by CBO numbers. Any number of think tanks could tell you this, but you’ll resort to attacking the messenger rather than accepting that we’re in deep, deep shit.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/21/GR2009032100104.html

  97. OK, let us look at the numbers…

    Virginia Commonwealth University Life Sciences Survey. May 12-18, 2010. N=1,001 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.7

    Abortion should be available no matter what the reason:

    May 2010 37%
    Dec 2007 34%

    Net chnage= +3% Within the MOE.

    Only legal in certain circumstances:

    May 2010 44%
    Dec 2007 45%

    Net chnage= -1% Within the MOE

    Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances:

    May 2010 15%
    Dec 2007 17%

    Net change= -2% Within the MOE.

    Gallup Poll. May 3-6, 2010. N=1,029 adults nationwide. MoE ± 4

    Would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?

    May 2010 45% / +47%
    Late 1995 56% / +33%

    Net change= -11% / +14% Exceeds MOE -7% / +10%

    Regardless of whether or not you think it should be legal, for each one, please tell me whether you personally believe that in general it is morally acceptable or morally wrong.

    May 2010 38% / 50%
    May 2001 42% / 45%

    Net Change= -4% / +5% Within MOE / Exceeds MOE +1%

    Chin’s convienent, but illogical attempt, at boxing the issue within extremes is typical of his strawmen. He has consistently shown us all that he argues through hyperbole to try and make his assertions seem moderate or sound, failing at both.

    What do the numbers tell us?

    1) Abortion is considered by most to be morally wrong.
    2) That abortion should only be allowed in certain circumstances.

    This has been seen, consistently, by Americans. In 2003 (after failing in 1997), partial birth abortion was made illegal. Who fought that Chin? Hmmmm, well, the vote went this way:

    The GOP led Congress first passed similar laws banning “partial-birth abortion” in December 1995, and again October 1997, but they were vetoed by President Bill Clinton.

    In the House, the final legislation was supported in 2003 by 218 Republicans and 63 Democrats. It was opposed by 4 Republicans, 137 Democrats, and 1 independent. Twelve members were absent, 7 Republicans and 5 Democrats. In the Senate the bill was supported by 47 Republicans and 17 Democrats. It was opposed by 3 Republicans, 30 Democrats, and 1 independent.[15] Two Senators were absent, Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-Tx.), a supporter of the bill, and John Edwards (D-NC), an opponent of the bill.

    On November 5, 2003, after being passed by both the House and the Senate, the bill was signed by President George W. Bush to become law.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial-Birth_Abortion_Ban_Act

    This was interesting in the polls that followed.

    A Rasmussen Reports poll 4 days after the court’s decision found that 40% of respondents “knew the ruling allowed states to place some restrictions on specific abortion procedures.” Of those who knew of the decision, 56% agreed with the decision and 32% were opposed. An ABC poll from 2003 found that 62% of respondents thought “partial-birth abortion” should be illegal; a similar number of respondents wanted an exception “if it would prevent a serious threat to the woman’s health.” Additional polls from 2003 found between 47–70% in favor of banning partial-birth abortions and between 25–40% opposed.” Same Source

    Finally, do not make the mistake of equating the “morally wrong” answers with the opinions of the same people about whether or not abortion should be legal. Not everyone wants to legislate their own private morality – even if you guys do.” — Chin

    Actually, what has been demonstrated, repeatedly, is that most Americans do want legislation that restricts the use of abortion and the question of morality is important.

    The ‘morning after pill’ that you on the left are so eager to push onto the market is a great example of this. Most Americans recognize that abortions are necessary MEDICAL PROCEDURES that are at times required to address serious medical issues. Life style decisions are NOT medical issues requiring medical procedures. This is why the left hides, flimisly I might add, behind the Right to Privacy aspect of Roe v. Wade, because on the merits of both Right to Life and medical competency, the argument holds no water.

    Consider:

    In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions.[26] Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following reasons for choosing an abortion:[27]

    25.5% Want to postpone childbearing
    21.3% Cannot afford a baby
    14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
    12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
    10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job
    7.9% Want no (more) children

    3.3% Risk to fetal health
    2.8% Risk to maternal health
    2.1% Other

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States

    91.8% selected an abortion for life style reasons, so the medical argument you and your ilk constantly push forward is utterly vacant.

    If you want to argue the age aspect, or the finance aspect of child bearing, fine, but it is a completely seperate argument to the abortion issue.

    Poll after poll shows that America wants restrictions on abortion and the only ones fighting that are radical leftists, like you, who falsely claim you’ve no interest or business in the choices of women but consistently interject yourself nonetheless in the issue.

  98. Mm, mmm, mm!
    Barack Hussein Obama Chairman Mao Zedong

    He said that all must lend a hand
    To make this country strong again
    Mmm, mmm, mm!
    Barack Hussein Obama Chairman Mao Zedong

    He said we must be fair today
    Equal work means equal pay
    Mmm, mmm, mm!
    Barack Hussein Obama Chairman Mao Zedong

    He said that we must take a stand
    To make sure everyone gets a chance
    Mmm, mmm, mm!
    Barack Hussein Obama Chairman Mao Zedong

    He said red, yellow, black or white
    All are equal in his sight
    Mmm, mmm, mm!
    Barack Hussein Obama Chairman Mao Zedong

    Yes!
    Mmm, mmm, mm
    Barack Hussein Obama Chairman Mao Zedong

  99. Rutherford, I apologize for my part in getting this abortion discussion going. In my defense, it was Rabbit who started it.

    We can throw statistics at each other all day and all night (the Ape threw first), but answer me this: if Americans are crying out for a ban on abortion – why don’t we already have one? You guys had six years of Bush and and a friendly Congress during which all the issues you believe in now could have been dealt with over the heads of those pesky Democrats. Why didn’t abortion have the same priority during the Bush Administration as fiscal responsibility?

    Oh – wait…..

    Some of the stats quoted in the Ape’s Wikipedia (!) article are over 20 years old. That obscures the strongest force behind the setting sun of the “pro-life” movement – the greater support for abortion rights among younger Americans. As we old farts die off, a new generation is going to be running things. They are much more liberal than their elders on a wide range of social issues. They even vote big-D Democratic – as they did in ’08 for pro-choice Obama.

  100. My take on abortion is not necessarily religious (unless on some sort of unconsious level). Thus, I may differ from many people here on the subject.

    My take on human life is Aristotelian and not Platonic, if that makes any sense. In other words, if it quakes like a duck it’s a duck. If the human being in a womb shares the same characteristics as a human being outside of a womb, its a human being. And after only 3 or 4 weeks we start to get there.

    Thus, while I feel the morning after pill to be disgusting, it’s only disgusting to me on a cerebral level and not an earthly one.

    I believe women obviously should have the choice of an abortion if the baby seems doomed or there is substantial risk to the mother. I’m an ex-Navy man and understand that sometimes you have to dog down the hatches to save the ship. This means people drown.

    I honestly don’t know what the hell the answer is to the very rare case of pregnancy due to rape.

    Lastly, an abortion for no other reason other then the pregnancy is an inconvenience (94% of all abortions I think?) should be illeagal. A woman doing it at home should, in fact, should face even stiffer charges.

    If I;m not allowed to beat Greychin up and throw him in the lake, your sister shouldn’t be able to dice up a defenseless baby, suck it up with a straw and throw it in a dumpster.

    Considering the reason almost all abortions take place, abortion doctors are murderers to me. When they get shot, my reaction is the same as when some gang member gets shot on the corner. It doesn’t bum me out that much compared to when an innocent person has their life taken from them.

  101. There was a letter to the editor of yesterday’s Tulsa paper from a deranged Tulsan named Tony, who has never held a job, lives on his grandfather’s fortune, and has spent his life being an anti-abortion absolutist – no abortion at ANY time for ANY reason. As a result, even the people who call themselves “pro-life” keep their distance from him.

    I’d like to know just how “pro-life” you guys are. How do you feel about abortion in the following circumstances? Legal or illegal?

    An 11-year old impregnated by her biological father (a real case in Delaware County OK)? Abortion – legal or illegal? (No abortion was performed.

    (The baby had severe genetic abnormalities and died after living only a few months. The father is in prison.)

    A woman is suffering from pulmonary hypertension, an illness the doctors believed would likely kill her and, as a result, her unborn child, if she did not abort the pregnancy. (Real 2010 case in Phoenix.) Abortion – legal or illegal?

    (The hospital administrator was excommunicated by the Catholic Church for approving the abortion in conjunction with her Catholic hospital’s medical ethics committee.)

    The inter-uterine birth control device can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus. IUD – legal or illegal?

    The “morning-after” pill (RU-486 taken with prostaglandin) causes a newly-implanted embryo to be expelled from the uterus. RU-486 regimen – legal or illegal?

    “EllaOne” – can be taken up to five days after intercourse to end or prevent pregnancy. Legal or illegal?

    Anencephaly – a neural tube defect that occurs when the end of the neural tube fails to close, resulting in the absence of a major portion of the brain, skull, and scalp. The lack of a functioning cerebrum permanently rules out the possibility of ever gaining consciousness. Abortion of the fetus – legal or illegal?

    I have a lot more hard cases to ask you about, but I think I’ll stop here for now.

  102. if Americans are crying out for a ban on abortion – why don’t we already have one? You guys had six years of Bush and and a friendly Congress during which all the issues you believe in now could have been dealt with over the heads of those pesky Democrats.” — Chin

    In typical Chin fashion, another faulty strawman.

    Your hyperbole is getting tiresome. As I said, and to which you completely ignore, is that, “Poll after poll shows that America wants restrictions on abortion.

    I’m sure you recognize that your argument is a non-argument for two reasons. 1)Roe v. Wade makes the issue of banning it extremely unlikely, and 2) that we’re not even talking about banning it altogether.

    Again, I’ll quote myself, “Most Americans recognize that abortions are necessary MEDICAL PROCEDURES that are at times required to address serious medical issues. Life style decisions are NOT medical issues requiring medical procedures.

    Tell me, are you so intellectually weak that you must continuously ignore the stated positions of others you claim to debate? You’ve already demonstrated a lack of fact in your arguments, and now you’re demonstrating a lack of intellectual fortitude.

  103. Before I answer Graychin’s red herring norm, I have a question for him.

    Do the difficult questions with respect to life excuse 95% of the abortions done simply for birth control and convenience sake?

    Because that is the gist of his argument.

  104. Some of the stats quoted in the Ape’s Wikipedia (!) article are over 20 years old. That obscures the strongest force behind the setting sun of the “pro-life” movement – the greater support for abortion rights among younger Americans. As we old farts die off, a new generation is going to be running things. They are much more liberal than their elders on a wide range of social issues. They even vote big-D Democratic – as they did in ’08 for pro-choice Obama.

    I say you’re wrong. I say your entire statement here is based on a false supposition. That generations remain static in their thought – that minds can’t change. I believe minds are already changing and you don’t recognize it. From Obama to teachers in public schools, to questioning of liberal indoctrination in higher education, the change has already started. All those holy grails, the untouchable leftist agenda, are now in question. Look to NJ – look to California. People are turning on your teacher’s unions.

    While it is true that younger people naively voted for the cool “black” guy, that while they may have voted for Obama in larger numbers, their visceral response at his horrid failures may have serious repercussions for the Democratic party. Last weekend I talked to four college age kids, all of whom voted for Obama much to their parents chagrin. That was then, this is now. They were openly mocking him, saying he lied to them, that he was full of himself and a farce.

    Your generation of which I refuse to call myself a part has lead us down a primrose path for fourty-five years. And look what it has wrought. Pandemic STDs, massive debt, public school failures, out of wedlock births, urban decay now 3rd world, a society out of control.

    Your legacy will be one of failure at every level.

  105. Rabbit,

    You have come to the correct conclusion concerning abortion because you asked the right question – one everyone should first answer before drawing their conclusion that somehow gets buried in the argument of rights. Is it a baby or not?

    Because if a fetus (a term used to soften the procedure and one that means suckling mammal, as in already born) is a baby, then the answer to abortion becomes pretty simple in all but the most tragic of circumstances.

    Men like Graychin and Rutherford have derived their own conclusions out of political expediency. Because their is no way to rationally call yourself pro-choice if the unborn child is considered. There is no choice….but then a baby doesn’t have a vote.

    Like someone once said, “if there were a window to the womb, abortion would stop today.”

  106. Rutherford @ 79:

    El Tigre misleads no one! And your suggestion that El Tigre does angers El Tigre to the point of referring to himself in the third person.

    You’ve seem to have so completely missed my point that you unwittingly made it.

    Scarborough shared the same view as me and Alfie here, i.e. the speech wasn’t THAT bad (at least substantively). Agreed.

    However, that ditsy Mika, like a teenage cheerleader accidentally walking in on the debate team, proclaimed Obama is so wonderful how dare anyone say anything mean about him. That’s when Willie Geist (with nods of agreement from virtually everyone at the table) said something to the effect of, “yeah, when you say something about Obama, you say something about Mika (and now her feelings are hurt).”

    Geist’s not so sarcastic comment expresses much of what a conservative hear from the liberal noise machine on a daily basis — including you. Like Chris Crocker making his tear-stained pleas to all the “meanies” to “just leave Brittany Spears alone” it’s the lefty’s urge to run to Obama’s personal defense on the most superficial level, rather than even attempting to logically analyze his performance, that appears to me to be coming to an end. Perhaps the same urge you might have to run to Mika The Great Intellectual’s defense?

    Honestly, the shallow defense of him as some kind of misunderstood individual when we’re talking about policy and politics sounds like the mother of the class bully. You know, refusing to recognize that Mama’s little baby is really a POS so everyone must just be picking on him for no reason.

    Anyway, I’ve asked previously why the media’s treatment of Obama is only now reflecting what the polls have over the last year or so. Even you are seeing the flaws in your messiah. Seriously Rutherford, what do you think is REALLY going on here? Is everyone just be picking on him for no reason? Is it possible that there has been an awakening that he is as ineffective and misdirected as he has been accused of by the right?

  107. Alfie @60: interesting. Of your three, I see Obama is almost purely reactive and protective in all of his decision making. He seems obsessed with his own image. With a crisis like the BP spill, I think his political vanity is the antithesis of leadership or at least the appearance of it. He was too busy trying to orchestrate and script to take immediate command, so he wound up with exactly what was focused on avoiding — criticism (as opposed to lost opportunities to mitigate).

    I find your observation of Obama as a reconciler rather than leader interesting. In some ways, I think his approach is to aim at reconciliation but his vanity and ego always trump and create unparalleled divisiveness. Now that the MSM seems to be viewing him more harshly, it’ll be interesting to see how Obama changes his approach — and he must.

  108. We COULD ban abortion entirely. It wouldn’t be easy. It would take a constitutional amendment to do it. But it could be done.

    Why isn’t it happening? Why hasn’t it happened? I say that it’s because the American people would not support it – and do not support it. You say that they would. So where is the amendment, almost forty years after Roe v. Wade?

    That is Exhibit A in my case that America is majority pro-choice.

    I profoundly disagree with characterization of most abortion decisions as “lifestyle choices.” You guys have no respect at all for women or their intelligence or their judgment, do you?

    Like someone once said, “if there were a window to the womb, abortion would stop today.” We’ll see about that. Oklahoma just passed an odious law requiring an ultrasound (probably vaginal) before every abortion, with the doctor required to describe what is seen, and the woman required to listen and watch the screen (unless she closes her eyes). What impact will it have on the number of abortions in Oklahoma, Tex? A 90% drop? How about 80%?

    Tex, here is a direct answer to a direct question. It’s a “baby” when it is viable. Until then, it’s part of the woman’s body – a fetus. Clear enough?

    …a false supposition. That generations remain static in their thought – that minds can’t change.

    Self-identified Republicans are over 60% white, married and Christian (all three). That percentage is rising. Meanwhile, the percentage of voters who are white, married and Christian is dropping – especially among voters under 30.

    Minds CAN change, and sometimes they do. But most people get their religious, moral and political leanings early in life, and pretty much hang on to them. You ought to be very, very worried about the 2008 vote of younger people, and what it predicts for the future of your way of thinking. Of course that fills me with optimism.

  109. “You say that they would.”

    Prove it. Line and verse where I say that.

    “I profoundly disagree with characterization of most abortion decisions as “lifestyle choices.”

    Again, prove it. Show something based in fact that shows that most abortions are medically related.

    I’ll bet dollars to donuts that you can’t and won’t.

  110. Rabbit used one word in a recent comment that really does resonate with me — dumpster.

    What is the difference between giving birth to a baby and abandoning it in a dumpster and having a doctor remove a fetus from the womb and putting it in medical waste?

    For the record: abortion as birth control is disgusting. If that is truly the only reason for the procedure then we as a society need to find some way to curtail it. I don’t know what we do besides put doctors in jail. Our adoption system is bureaucratic and overwhelmed. Our society is hyper-sexed. The environment for “un-wanted” babies is toxic to say the least.

    There is a moral issue of teaching young women to view pregnancy as a responsibility …. that carrying a baby to term is a moral imperative. Not a religious one. Simply a human moral one. We must also require a postpartum support system. As I’ve said before, lots of GOPhers want to demand uninterrupted births but don’t give a damn after that. No education programs, no day care programs, no nothing.

    Again, I repeat that I just wish more women were leading the charge against irresponsible abortions. I still feel that folks with penises look pretty haughty calling the shots on this.

    P.S. Rape and incest are not the fault of the conceived. So I just don’t buy that exception.

  111. “In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions.[26] Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following reasons for choosing an abortion:[27]

    25.5% Want to postpone childbearing
    21.3% Cannot afford a baby
    14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
    12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
    10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job
    7.9% Want no (more) children
    3.3% Risk to fetal health
    2.8% Risk to maternal health
    2.1% Other

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States

    91.8% selected an abortion for life style reasons

    Just so Chin can have something recent to counter.

    We’re waiting…

  112. Because if a fetus (a term used to soften the procedure and one that means suckling mammal, as in already born) is a baby, then the answer to abortion becomes pretty simple in all but the most tragic of circumstances.

    Jeeesh Tex. I reach an epiphany of sorts and then you have to go ruin it with a dumb semantic argument.

    Tex … a fetus is not already born. Stop being an idiot.

    Just so everyone can see the straw Tex is grasping, this from Wikipedia:

    The word fetus (plural fetuses) is from the Latin fetus, meaning offspring, bringing forth, hatching of young. It has Indo-European roots related to sucking or suckling, from the Aryan prefix bheu-, meaning “To come into being”.

    That’s the origin, not the current definition. A fetus ceases to be a fetus once it is born. Your word games only obscure your argument.

    The issue should not even be the viability of the unborn being. The issue should be whether or not there is a moral imperative to let life take its natural course. Period. End of story.

  113. I suppose y’all agree with the congressman today who at the spill hearings apologized to BP for our President “shaking them down”.

    Yup, our great American democracy where dumbass congressmen (this one I think from Texas (surprise surprise)) get to undermine the President at every turn.

    What an ass-wipe.

  114. Rutherford #86

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/steffy/7043272.html

    Also:
    A number of offers of assistance have been accepted. These include: Mexico’s offer of two skimmers and 13,780 feet of boom which were accepted in early May; Norway’s offer of eight skimming systems which was accepted in early May; Netherland’s offer of three sets of Koseq Rigid Sweeping Arms that was accepted on May 23; and Canada’s offer of 9,843 feet of containment boom which was accepted on June 4. In addition, the U.S. Government has accepted and is grateful for assistance in the form of notification regarding the spill sent by the International Maritime Organization to its member states and coordination of EU offers of assistance by the European Commission’s Monitoring and Information Centre.
    from http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2010/06/143127.htm
    The explosion/leak=4/20

  115. Ape, I still object to your characterization of those reasons as “lifestyle choices.”

    And can you quote something a bit more authoritative than a 20-year-old study quoted second-hand in Wikipedia? I don’t trust Wikipedia on hot-button issues like abortion. It’s OK for physics or Henry VIII, and even for election results. But you never know who is writing stuff there about abortion.

  116. I suppose y’all agree with the congressman today who at the spill hearings apologized to BP for our President “shaking them down”.

    Rutherford, that is what the Republican partisans have been reduced to – mindless criticism of Obama, even when he pulls off a coup like that one.

  117. Like TARP, there are some serious concerns with his actions and his Constitutional authority to do the things he is doing.

    We have a judicial and legislative system for these things. Obama’s whims don’t count for either.

  118. A 2005 study…

    Below is a breakdown of women’s responses that specified reasons that led to their abortion decision (percentage total will not add up to 100% as multiple answers were permissible):
    74% felt “having a baby would dramatically change my life” (which includes interrupting education, interfering with job and career, and/or concern over other children or dependents)
    73% felt they “can’t afford a baby now” (due to various reasons such as being unmarried, being a student, inability to afford childcare or basic needs of life, etc.)
    48% “don’t want to be a single mother or [were] having relationship problem[s]”
    38% “have completed [their] childbearing”
    32% were “not ready for a(nother) child”
    25% “don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant”
    22% “don’t feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child”
    14% felt their “husband or partner wants me to have an abortion”
    13% said there were “possible problems affecting the health of the fetus”
    12% said there were “physical problems with my health”
    6% felt their “parents want me to have an abortion”
    1% said they were “a victim of rape”
    <0.5% "became pregnant as a result of incest"

    http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionReasons_2.htm

  119. None of you “pro-life” types seem to be interested in addressing the situations that I mentioned at #127.

    That’s because it’s much easier to oppose abortion in the abstract than it is to deal with the unpleasantness of real life.

  120. Lawd, Obama and Rutherford have finally proven to me what a college education from Harvard is really worth these days. Affirmative action, politically correct, grade inflated nothingness.

    The magnitude of this ignorance is breathtaking:

    That’s the origin, not the current definition. A fetus ceases to be a fetus once it is born. Your word games only obscure your argument.

    Word games? Obscure the argument? Origin, but not definition and you want to accuse me of playing word games? Dis brotha, I gets it nowz. No wonder Ebonics took hold. :smile:

    Using your own rules, fetus clearly means unborn child. It just makes it a little easier to swallow when you say “abortl” the fetus, instead of “abort” the child, hey?

    The issue should not even be the viability of the unborn being. The issue should be whether or not there is a moral imperative to let life take its natural course. Period. End of story.

    Should not even be about the viability of the unborn being? WHAT??? I feel like all of the sudden, I walked into a high school debate class.

    That’s exactly the argument of abortion you idiot. You can sprinkle this horseshit of ABORTING a birth any way you want clown, but you’re killing a living creature, and their is no way around it. As usual, you operate on the dark side and the wrong side. You deserve Sandi as host.

  121. 74% felt “having a baby would dramatically change my life”

    Shouldn’t that be 100%? :D

    Since multiple answers were allowed and no attempt was made to rank the importance given to each answer, I can’t see how this study tells us very much. But there are some interesting facts in there anyway:

    73% felt they “can’t afford a baby now” (due to various reasons such as being unmarried, being a student, inability to afford childcare or basic needs of life, etc.)

    25% “don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant”

    These answers, far from being “lifestyle choices,” show a shocking lack of social support for women with unplanned pregnancies. If the “pro-life” crowd spent as much time helping pregnant women as they do ragging against pro-choice people as “inherently evil,” maybe we could reduce the number of abortions significantly. Giving young people accurate birth control information would help too – something that (oddly) seems to make the “pro-life” go into hysterics when it isn’t “abstinence only.”

  122. “I suppose y’all agree with the congressman today who at the spill hearings apologized to BP for our President “shaking them down”.”

    I knew you’d be omitting the most important part of his statement.

    “I’m speaking now totally for myself,” he noted. “I’m not speaking for the Republican Party.”

    “Yup, our great American democracy where dumbass congressmen (this one I think from Texas (surprise surprise)) get to undermine the President at every turn. ”

    Maybe you should go ask Joe Biden if he thinks this is bullshit.

    Rutherford, concerning the moratorium on drilling, I found this to be interesting news…

    It seems those experts that met with Obama to talk about drilling say that he is full of shit concerning what they told him.

    When President Obama last month announced his six-month deepwater moratorium, he pointed to an Interior Department report of new “safety” recommendations. That report prominently noted that the recommendations it contained—including the six-month drilling ban—had been “peer-reviewed” by “experts identified by the National Academy of Engineering.” It also boasted that Interior “consulted with a wide range” of other experts. The clear implication was that the nation’s drilling brain trust agreed a moratorium was necessary.

    As these columns reported last week, the opposite is true. In a scathing document, eight of the “experts” the Administration listed in its report said their names had been “used” to “justify” a “political decision.” The draft they reviewed had not included a six-month drilling moratorium. The Administration added that provision only after it had secured sign-off. In their document, the eight forcefully rejected a moratorium, which they argued could prove more economically devastating than the oil spill itself and “counterproductive” to “safety.”

    We decided to call some of these experts ourselves. Their information, and concerns, are revealing.

    The experts were certainly under the impression they were reviewing a comprehensive document, as some of the recommendations would take six months or even a year to implement. And the report they agreed to did address moratoria: It recommended a six-month ban on new deepwater permits. Yet Benton Baugh, president of Radoil, said that in at least two separate hour-and-a-half phone calls among Interior and the experts, there was no discussion of a moratorium on existing drilling. “Because if anybody had [made that suggestion], we’d have said ‘that’s craziness.’”

    Would you care to defend the proven lies told by this administration to defend the moratorium on offshore drilling?

  123. President Barack Obama’s audience of 32.1 million people for his address on the Gulf oil spill is fewer than for some of his other big speeches.

    Obama’s last prime-time address to the nation on a single topic was Dec. 1 on Afghanistan. That was seen by nearly 41 million people. Nielsen said 48 million people saw Obama deliver his State of the Union address in January.

    The broadcast networks quickly resumed entertainment programming after Obama’s Oval Office address finished Tuesday.

    People weren’t paying attention to this epic fail?

    Good!

  124. Graychin, you didn’t answer my question. Until you do, I’m not bothering with your begging the question crap in #127. Its a specious argument because you are choosing to ignore the nineteen out of twenty abortions that have nothing to do with your copied list. As usual, you let the exception drive the rule under the perversion of law.

    So where is the amendment, almost forty years after Roe v. Wade?

    Where’s the amendment to legalize abortion? There is none. Nine people made decision. You’re so confident killing babies in the womb is the majority, let’s put it to a vote of the American public and you can include your list as exceptions.

    Why don’t you push for that and we will end the argument?

    Tex, here is a direct answer to a direct question. It’s a “baby” when it is viable. Until then, it’s part of the woman’s body – a fetus. Clear enough?

    Woman’s body, hey? Then why is it half the time, the sex different? Why does the fetus have unique DNA? I don’t think your basic biology seems very sound. You should try a different argument. That doesn’t sound like a woman’s body to me. It sounds like the woman is host, but the child is obviously unique (except in the graychin family where the family tree is a straight line).

    As far as the vote of great confidence for you in 2008, perhaps you need a reminder of how quickly things can change:

    Obama….

  125. Which question of yours didn’t I answer, Tex? This thread is getting really long. Help me out here?

    I’ll answer yours if you will address #127. Deal?

    The finding of the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade was that the right to an abortion was present in the Constitution. It didn’t take an amendment, any more than it took an amendment to recognize in Brown v. Board of Education that “separate” was inherently UNequal.

    Where is the constitutional amendment that America is clamoring for? Nowhere. Barely even proposed – by anyone. It’s a non-starter.

  126. If the issue wasn’t so important, it would be boring constantly countering the pro-choice dumb ass arguments.

    I almost respect the ones that say “I don’t give a shit about babies and could care less if 95% of abortions are so people can do things like take night classes.”

    But the arguments…uh.

    They remind me of the little kid that keeps going with the what if stuff.

    Point taken. Sadly, some abortions are called for just like lethal force is sometimes needed. We get it.

    Even his “lack of social support” argument is a complete red herring. Ok, agreed, lets kill the baby becuase Jenny on the block is embarrassed and it’s not right that she should be shamed.

    The “woman’s body” argument is so biologically wrong it’s like trying to have a conversation with someone who believes in Werewolves.

    Now, I guess they could say adults have more worth then babies. But, call like it is, at least.

    This stuff comes down to liberals hating the real world. They hate the fact that women make the most noble sacrifice on Earth. They see it as an unfair burden. I see it has……..rabbit drum roll…inspiring.

    Women are the true warriors. It’s too bad us dudes fuck everything up. It’s also too bad the left wants to make women dudes.

  127. Found on a rationale that makes no sense…even to liberal legal scholars.

    And yet – there it stands after over 35 years. America has no will to change it.

  128. And yet – there it stands after over 35 years. America has no will to change it.

    So when something is wrong, but remains for a long enough period of years, it is right.

    I think you just summed up the honest liberal’s political philosophy. (The dishonest liberal’s political philosophy being “It iisn’t illegal when we do it.”)

  129. Amendments are conspicuously difficult to pass and you know it. It’s been done a handful of times in the entire history of our country.

    If you’re so sure you’re in the majority opinion, list your exceptions you wish to add for exclusion to the rule, and let’s put the validity of Roe V. Wade to the test where it always belonged – the will of the American public.

    I’m practical enough to recognize there are difficult questions mortal man not wise enough to answer. The danger to mother giving birth being the easiest one for me.

    But you’re hiding behind the exceptions – that’s not what the real debate is about. In a country that places innocence before guilt front and center, you’ve again flipped the script and taken the least prudent approach to the value of life.

    As usual, you see darkness as light, and call bitter sweet. It’s a very consistent character flaw and an indicator of something much more revealing about you than your supposed “open mind.”

  130. “So when something is wrong, but remains for a long enough period of years, it is right.”

    If we ask those who defend the laws broken by the Obama Administration, the answer is “yes.”

  131. Tex, which question was it that you were being so pissy about me not answering? Don’t you want your answer, or were you just blowing smoke?

    If you’re so sure you’re in the majority opinion, list your exceptions you wish to add for exclusion to the rule, and let’s put the validity of Roe V. Wade to the test where it always belonged – the will of the American public.

    Huh? How are we going to do that?

    I can’t list my “exceptions (i) wish to add for exclusion to the rule.” I’m not even sure what that means, but it sounds backwards. I want to trust women to make their own decisions, especially after we start giving them the social support that they told Ape’s study that they don’t have. (See #165.)

    The government ought to stay completely out of abortion decisions, just like Joe Barton thinks that the government should leave poor BP alone! :D

  132. Hyuck – that’s encouraging news about GOP disapproval of Joe Barton. Let’s see if they follow through. I’m betting that they don’t. Any takers?

    The GOP has been strangely deaf to Rep. Steve King’s recent race-baiting, as well as to the always-entertaining Michelle Bachmann. And what ever happened to Mr. “You Lie”?

  133. Keith is leaving Daily Kos? Oh no!

    Keith is a thin-skinned blowhard. But I like him better than the other thin-skinned blowhards who talk politics in the evening.

  134. “And what ever happened to Mr. “You Lie”?”

    Here we go with the Red Herrings.

    He was severly spanked and said sorry. What would you have prefered—crucifixion?

  135. Well, not everyone in the GOP is ready to throw Barton under the bus. Here is Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX):

    “I think it’s good that there’s going to be some money there, I don’t know whether it’s going to be enough money to pay all the claims. They should pay the legitimate claims. But the part that Representative Barton is expressing some concern about, that I share the concern, is this has really become a political issue for the President and he’s trying to deal with it by showing how tough he’s being against BP. The problem is BP’s the only one who really is in control of shutting down this well, and he’s trying to mitigate, I think, his own political problems.”

    Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.) slammed the escrow fund to help victims of the spill as “a redistribution-of-wealth fund” that could serve as a “gateway” for “more money to government.” Rep. Tom Price (R-Ga.) blasted the White House for securing the funds for Gulf Coast businesses and families, condemning the success as a “Chicago-style political shakedown.” Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour (R) disapproves of escrow fund, and has said he’s worried it will undermine BP profits too much. At one point, House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) went so far as to suggest American taxpayers should help pay for the relief effort, though he later backpedaled.

    Nope – Barton’s in great company! :D

  136. When we have members of Congress who assault citizens, call for the jailing of anyone who supports drilling for oil, and publically states that nationalization of oil companies should be a goal of the U.S. Government, I can see where Joe Barton, Steve King, and Joe Wilson would be of primary importance to deal with.

  137. Tom Price of Georgia made similar comments.

    That makes 4 of 218 republican members of congress. But keep digging. Maybe you’ll get up to 5.

  138. 127?

    You know what, fuck off. You’ve but yet another thread ignoring the comments and points of others while throwing strawman after strawman under the bus in an effort to dig your ass out of the intellectual hole you’re trapped in.

    Really, fuck off. If you can’t once address any of the positions proposed in this thread- they’re too long to list- then I see no reason to point out how fucking stupid your 127 is, especially since I’ve answered it, several times.

    You’re an intellectual coward, a mental midget, and someone who consistently gets his ass handed to him in the arena of ideas.

  139. “Really?”

    Yes really. Do you have amnesia? Or do you not consider a congressional resolution, continued public humiliation, and a personal apology punishment enough?

    Even the thin-skinned Obama has gotten over it. Maybe it’s time for the rest of you to do the same?

    “Huck – like I said, let’s see if Barton suffers any actual consequences from his colleagues. I’m betting that he won’t.”

    What consequences should he face? And why?

  140. Tex, the last thing the pro-life movement needs is you as an advocate. You don’t just skirt around the boundaries of idiocy, you dive in fully clothed!!!

    Should not even be about the viability of the unborn being? WHAT??? I feel like all of the sudden, I walked into a high school debate class.

    That’s exactly the argument of abortion you idiot.

    If you base your abortion argument on viability you have lost before you have even started. According to 2004 data roughly 77% of all abortions were in the first 10 weeks. That’s not viable outside the womb Tex. 1.3% of them were in the second 20 weeks of gestation.

    When you make a viability argument you concede the argument to your opponent. As I said earlier, your ONLY argument that involves any consistency is the moral imperative to let nature take its course and allow living cells to complete the process of forming into a viable human being. The minute you go off that road, you’re just asking for trouble.

  141. What consequences should he face? And why?

    Personally, I think every congressman or woman who opposes Obama should be stripped naked and lynched from a tree on the White House lawn. :evil:

    P.S. I’ve been reading way too many comments from BiW’s friend Dick, the homicidal clown. It’s starting to rub off. :shock:

  142. “Lynching” is on the banned words list. I’ve seen people innocently use this non PC word and get burned for it.

    It’s up there with the phrase “You people”.

  143. Tex, which question was it that you were being so pissy about me not answering? Don’t you want your answer, or were you just blowing smoke?

    What are you going to do about 95% of the abortions for convenience and birth control? Going to excuse 950K a year infanticides under the auspices of choice or “safe, legal and rare.”

    Only in libbie camp would 950,000 abortions be rare.

    But really, I don’t know why I argue. Perhaps you’re right. Since working at a mend crisis pregnancy center about town, one thing I did discover is that an inordinate number of them prey on the minority community. I didn’t meet any nihilists like you working there by the way.

    Perhaps I should be encouraging more abortions…if it gets rid of a few of your type before you bloom, the world would be a better place.

  144. Rutherford, exactly what is your field of expertise?

    It isn’t debate, it isn’t science, it surely isn’t finances, it isn’t drilling rigs, it isn’t math. That’s just a small composite of the things you’ve written lately where you’ve talked a lot with little or no knowledge. It makes you appear on par with somebody like Alvin.

    When you make a viability argument you concede the argument to your opponent. As I said earlier, your ONLY argument that involves any consistency is the moral imperative to let nature take its course and allow living cells to complete the process of forming into a viable human being. The minute you go off that road, you’re just asking for trouble.

    Who said anything about viability besides Graychin dimwit? I said aborting a life from conception wrong and have never deviated from that. As usual, you must have me mixed up with your imaginary opponents. The fact that you would mix me up with a worm like the insufferable Graychin is personally devastating. It’s the zenith of insult. :oops:

    Why don’t you just admit like Rabbit said don’t matter to you, there’s no sin in being selfish and callous, and leave it at that. You’re not going to win the moral argument. You’re not going to win the Embryological argument, you’re not going to win the humanitarian or justice argument.

    Just leave it as you really don’t give a shit about anything other than another “vote”. That’s what your position is all about. It “feels” good and “sounds” good in Leftist circles. I get it.

  145. Anybody else find our current Congress the height of absolute cowardice? What is to come of this BP fiasco, where these asshole politicians sit in judgment of anybody and proceed with public humiliation and bullying?

    Do these jokers not recognize even BP is more popular than they are?

    I wish one person would stand up and tell them “Bite Me.” Then follow that with a “Kiss my ass Waxman you wombat faced dick.” It would be worth spending a few hours in the clink to watch these mofo politicians blow up with rage, and then be drown out by the cries of “Attaboy!” from an adoring public.

    I guarantee anybody doing so would be an absolute hero to at least 2/3 of the country that despises this Bongo Congress. The other 1/3 doesn’t matter.

  146. I just heard the Barton response. Excellent. It’s nice to see a Congressman stand up and tell the truth for once – somebody who acts like a statesman.

    It is a shakedown and BP was stupid to agree to let Ali Obama and his 40 thieves’ hands anywhere near a corporate pocket book. I hope all of Britain tells America to go fuck itself and declares war.

    These race hustling pimps won’t be reimbursing any legitimate claims. They’ll be buying votes all over New Orleans with this bling. Payback to the thugs that looted N.O during Katrina.

    Obama and Jesse Jackson – two peas in a pod.

    Henry Waxman is so ugly he looks alien. Definitely the male face of the Liberal/Progressive/Democratic party.

  147. $20 billion capped escrow paid out over years is a coup?

    It’s not capped. It’s a down-payment.

    What consequences should (Joe Barton) face? And why?

    The only appropriate penalty is removal from office by the voters in his district. Nothing else sends an effective message to others likely to similarly offend. It’s also very unlikely to occur.

    Do these jokers not recognize even BP is more popular than they are?

    BP is probably the only institution besides al Qaida that is less popular in America than Congress.

    What are you going to do about 95% of the abortions for convenience and birth control?

    Nothing. Absolutely nothing. How many times do I have to say it – ABORTION IS NONE OF THE GOVERNMENT’S FUCKING BUSINESS! Is that clear enough for you? Also, I do not agree with the premise of your question that 95% of abortions are “for convenience and birth control.” I talked about that at #156.

    Tom Price of Georgia made similar comments. That makes 4 of 218 republican members of congress (supporting Barton).

    And Tex Taylor! :D

  148. It’s not capped. It’s a down-payment.
    Keep telling yourself that. 20 bn is the amount BP will aim for over the 2 years it builds up to that.The settlment payments are indeed capped. Meaning once you get yours you’re done.
    So for the next 48 months the lawsuits,govt. interference and possible failure of BP will sadly prove me right in calling it capped as it will prove to be truly capped in a number of ways.

    On a side note am I the only guy wondering who will pay the non govt. pay czar who is part of the Administration?

  149. <i?On a side note am I the only guy wondering who will pay the non govt. pay czar who is part of the Administration?

    I haven’t been wondering, but I had assumed that his pay would come from the same settlement fund. It’s only right that BP bear the cost, because now they won’t have to incur the cost of paying claims in their own shop.

  150. Time for me and my boys to grab some bats and teach 12 angry blackmen they are on the wrong side of Inkster road……in a championship game of softball where your favorite Rabbit will be batting 4th. (I know becuase I’m the coach).

  151. Graychin,

    Every survey shows approximately 95% of abortions are performed for reasons other than the health of baby or mother, rape, and incest. Congratulations, you’re a proponent of butchering God’s most innocent creatures. I always did kind of picture you a Tiller the Baby Killer kind of sniveling worm, money made off the gov’t dole.

    Too bad Barton retracted – somebody finally does something brave in Congress, calls it exactly what it is, and then backs off from it. And here I thought I’d finally found a pol with a backbone. BP signed their death warrant in doing so. But, there will be consequences as I see many American companies saying screw it – the risk is too great. Dims made pompous asses of themselves, as usual today. You ought to move to a blue state and run Graychin. You read just like Henry Waxman sounds.

    You coached slow pitch softball? :lol: :lol:

    I’ll bet you were the worm who we shoved behind the catcher’s plate to retrieve balls. Fucking ball retriever. Could you get it back to the mound Nolan Ryan? What a nerd! A coach…. :lol:

  152. Here’s another memoir Rutherford is sure to add to his library…

    ‘The Complete Anthology of the Dignified Public Remarks of Vice President Joe Biden’.
    :lol:

    There are some funny people out there. None of them are libs unfortunately.

  153. Barack Obama has possessed everything a great leader needs…save one. His only inadequacy has been the dearth of citizens willing to openly laugh at him.

    What cave has Scott Ott been living in? Someone should simply invite him to the Rutherford Lawson Blog. :D

    Then he wouldn’t need to waste his time writing silly books.

  154. Not for nothing but I looked at some transcripts of the Hayward hearings.In my opinion he schooled Congress.

  155. I just wandered over here for the first time in quite a while, and what do I find but the same old drivel from Tex….

    I just heard the Barton response. Excellent. It’s nice to see a Congressman stand up and tell the truth for once – somebody who acts like a statesman

    I have made so many jokes lately about how the right wing was going to try to make BP look like the victim here. But, those were jokes based on the absurdity of the proposition. Seriously? Tex – I know you are shareholder and have a personal stake here…. but BP ain’t the victim.

    Wow – good to be back, I guess….

    – hp

  156. Rutherford, you really should have been watching FOX tonight.

    The brilliant Ann Coulter broke you and liberal children like Coach Graychin down beautifully. She categorized you both superbly.

    She used the tooth fairy as comparison for Coach Graychin’s lovefest with Obama because liberals like Coach don’t know who Jesus is, and therefore its required to use a person, place or thing they are familiar with. There the helpless schmucks and lost causes from the Left who don’t know how to leave. :lol:

    But she reserved special ire for lemmings like you (her word, not mine), who now that Jon Stewart and Keith Olbermann have jumped ship and given you the cue its okay to be mad at Obama, you too can jump.

    She called you backstabbing cowards, and after I gave it some thought, I’ve decided she was absolutely right. :wink:

    But she ress

  157. Tex said….. The brilliant Ann Coulter broke you and liberal children like Coach Graychin down beautifully. She categorized you both superbly.

    Man I have to keep up because this is just too much for one night. Ann Coulter. Brilliant? Tex, even you can’t be THAT inane….

    – hp

  158. But she reserved special ire for lemmings like you (her word, not mine), who now that Jon Stewart and Keith Olbermann have jumped ship and given you the cue its okay to be mad at Obama, you too can jump.

    Oh – and since I actually haven’t jumped ship, I can ask:

    WTF has Obama done/not done that you wouldn’t find perfectly acceptable had one of your own guys done it? What, in fact, could Obama have done at all, that really might have made a difference here? Walked around on a few more beaches looking a bit more concerned? Hugged a few more widows? Shaken his finger at BP a few more times? What actual power did he have here?

    Sheesh – quit playing politics for once.

    – hp

  159. Hippie, I see the foul wind of higher ed hypocrisy has blown you back this way. Wonderful. But I was getting bored with Coach, so why not.

    ———————-

    I’m willing to forgo a considerable amount of money to watch your messiah be booted to the curb. I feel honored to be a small part of his downfall and to remove the word “Katrina” from liberal lexicon. I own several oil and gas stocks, but this is my wife’s biggest holding by far. No doubt, we’ve lost a consider amount of money. It would have been minimal if a particular hard headed, obstinate woman had listened to her husband around the 1st of May. :wink: Easy come, easy go.

    As a shareholder, I feel everybody on the coast should be adequately compensated, even if it comes out of my pocket. BP is totally responsible. That’s the risk you take when you own a company and a company performs poorly – they screwed up big time and should be punished. It pisses me off as both citizen and shareholder. Hopefully, my wife and I will fare better than the bond holders at Chrysler and Delphi when Bongo stole their money.

    But I have a pretty good suspicion that those currently demagoguing the BP issues are cutting off their nose to spite their face, because don’t think for a second that all of corporate America isn’t watching how BP is being demonized by the feckless Dimocratic Congress. Killing jobs is not a great long strategy, as America and unfortunately Louisiana will soon learn.

    ———————-

    I sure wish I would have kept that article I read last week about the blow back coming against higher education – especially your type. It was perfect, but I thought I wouldn’t have to deal with you again, so I didn’t bookmark it. All about the feckless, indoctrinating liberal arts professors at the liberal arts colleges graduating students that are unemployable with huge loans. Really gut wrenching stuff.

    But I sure would like to see over educated, overrated shills who is used to “educating” twenty somethings get to perform in the real world so we can find out how really talented these “professors” are.

    P.S – It was entertaining to read your students opinions about your teaching abilities on ratemyprofessor.com.

  160. Hippie,

    Though only my opinion, understand this from the bottom of my heart with my sincerest sympathies.

    On one end of the intelligence spectrum, we have Ann Coulter. On the other, we have liberal arts professors.

    Now, I’ll let you decide who is who.

    But I like to think that I live by the philosophy of “Those that can’t, sell. Those that can’t sell, teach.” :wink:

  161. “WTF has Obama done/not done that you wouldn’t find perfectly acceptable had one of your own guys done it?”

    Exploit a disaster to raise campaign funds.

    ” What, in fact, could Obama have done at all, that really might have made a difference here?”

    Accept outside help when it was offered by people experienced in this area.

    Given Bobby Jindal his booms as requested.

    “What actual power did he have here?”

    Presidential power to remove red tape that is getting in the way of a maximum response effort.

    Obama does not own the explosion. But he does own the response, whether he wants to, or not. He is the leader of this country, and when disaster strikes, we look to our leader to fix it. Don’t believe that, go ask George Bush.

  162. “WTF has Obama done/not done that you wouldn’t find perfectly acceptable had one of your own guys done it?”

    Exploit a disaster to raise campaign funds.

    Got to give President Shank a little credit for more than just raising funds for Babs Boxer. He did manage to get in eight or nine rounds while the Gulf Coast stank. Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name.

    Ironic how these lowlifes are now asking questions like “what he supposed to do…He’s trying!!” I don’t remember them being so forgiving five years ago.

    I don’t feel the least bit of sympathy for this bullying Liar-in-Chief, his cabinet, his useful idiot Congress, or his pathetic sycophants, some whom reside on this board. What goes around comes around assholes.

  163. Who said anything about viability besides Graychin dimwit?

    Wow …. I think having two libs on the board is causing serious injury to your brain Tex.

    To review … I made the statement that viability really was not the main issue with opposing abortion.

    You said I was wrong … that viability ks the only consideration.

    I countered (with stats to back me up) that if viability is the only consideration then you lose your argument 73% of the time.

    None of this exchange had a damn thing to do with Graychin. Now all I need to do is get Curator back in here and you’ll really snap a synapse! :-)

  164. It is a shakedown and BP was stupid to agree …

    ROTFLMAO! Thanks goodness Tex you’re not a GOP strategist. Do you know the field day the Dem’s will have with this? “GOP sides with BP against average American.”

    Yeah Tex, you keep rooting for BP dude. You’re handing us victory in November. :lol:

  165. It is a shakedown and BP was stupid to agree …

    ROTFLMAO! Thanks goodness Tex you’re not a GOP strategist. Do you know the field day the Dem’s will have with this? “GOP sides with BP against average American.”

    Yeah Tex, you keep rooting for BP dude. You’re handing us victory in November.

    Yeah! What the hell. Its only the law we’re talking about.

  166. Hasn’t even started dispensing funds, and the corruption of Dim stink is already seeping in.

    Huh? The fund should pay for any needs these out of work folks in the Gulf area have … and if that includes health care then so be it. Where is the corruption?

    I’m totally confused … Obama takes steps to protect average citizens of this country and you guys are pissed. And Tex of all people who I thought shared my contempt for corporate America is now a cheerleader for BP. What gives?

  167. Ann Coulter. Brilliant? Tex, even you can’t be THAT inane….

    First, HP, welcome back to the blog. You’ve been missed. (I appreciate the shoutout in your latest post, which I haven’t read completely yet …. but I gather you found my criticism of Obama misplaced.)

    Second, with the exception of his patient and very competent wife, Tex likes his women either smart and catty (Coulter) or dumb and catty (Palin). :-)

  168. Ann Coulter is “catty”?

    Wrong adjective. She makes her living saying the most ridiculous things imaginable, just for their shock value.

    Kind of like a female Glenn Beck.

    And a fine living it is. THAT is what Coulter has in common with Sarah Palin. She’s all about the money.

  169. P.S – It was entertaining to read your students opinions about your teaching abilities on ratemyprofessor.com.

    LOL, thanks for the suggestion Tex. Yes, apparently HP is a popular prof and like me he likes to go off on tangents. He sounds like the kind of professor I would have enjoyed in college. :-)

  170. Gray, you’re right about Coulter and the money. Heck, I have this little internet radio show and I’ve often considered transforming into the liberal version of Beck. Kinda like Ed Schulz on steroids just so I can improve my paltry ratings. I’m just not a good enough actor to pull it off.

    Regarding Tex and corporate America, one of the things Tex and I have in common is a huge time investment in corporate America. We’ve seen the mind numbing bureaucracy, the BS spouting executives, and the dedication to the bottom line at the expense of the worker. And both of us saw it from the vantage point of management. We weren’t simply the low guy on the totem pole regretting our lot in life. We were in positions of power (well, in my case minimal power) and we saw up close how badly things sucked. Tex bailed on it. I was pushed.

    So yes, Tex knows how corporations, for the most part, work. In one of his comments in this thread he comes clean about BP really sucking. But he hates Obama and libs so much that he’s willing to hold his nose and stick it up BP’s ass if it means he can dis a lib.

    Tex is more like Rahm Emanuel than he would care to admit. “Use every crisis as an opportunity” to bash a liberal. ;-)

  171. Tex said: But I sure would like to see over educated, overrated shills who is used to “educating” twenty somethings get to perform in the real world so we can find out how really talented these “professors” are. P.S – It was entertaining to read your students opinions about your teaching abilities on ratemyprofessor.com.

    Tex, there is absolutely no reason I should feel the need to justify my career accomplishments to you – and although I find your smarmy tone annoying, I won’t even try.

    I will say this, however. Over the years I have accumulated quite a number of testimonials from students concerning how I have inspired them and changed their lives. There are enough of those that I can go to bed at night in the comfort of knowing that up to this point I have made a difference. If tomorrow your group of intellectual Luddites really did manage to shut down our system of higher education, I would still have that feeling of accomplishment. You won’t be able to take it away from me.

    As you approach your later years I hope you can say the same for yourself, because I suspect it would be quite depressing to feel you have not really accomplished much.

    – hp

  172. oops – forgot to turn off the italics – but I suspect you can tell where Tex’s comments end and mine start…..
    Editor’s note: above comment corrected.

  173. Tex said: Ironic how these lowlifes are now asking questions like “what he supposed to do…He’s trying!!” I don’t remember them being so forgiving five years ago.

    The difference, as I have pointed out before, is that right-wing policies contributed to the mess created by Katrina. Hence, Bush was (by association) a lot more culpable for Katrina.

    Those same right-wing policies contributed to the BP mess – so Obama by association is far less culpable.

    Seems pretty damned clear to me…..

    – hp

  174. Rutherford said: ROTFLMAO! Thanks goodness Tex you’re not a GOP strategist. Do you know the field day the Dem’s will have with this? “GOP sides with BP against average American.” Yeah Tex, you keep rooting for BP dude. You’re handing us victory in November.

    Rutherford, you are forgetting that Tex is is a substantial shareholder in BP. Of course, that means he is actually one of the OWNERS of BP. Tex *is* BP.

    Tex isn’t rooting for BP here, he is rooting for himself. When he claims that there has been a shakedown of BP he really means there has been a shakedown of HIM.

    Tex probably even thinks he should still be getting a dividend….

    – hp

  175. Good point HP. I’m forgetting that beyond the tanking stock price, Tex lost his dividend too.

    It should make him all the angrier at BP for being so reckless that it put his investment at risk.

  176. HP, now that you’re here, take a gander at how Gorilla etal are once again enraged that Obama’s name should be associated with giving youngsters inspiration to achieve. The insanity begins at comment 72. You can then skip to 92 for my response.

  177. Huck said Obama should have…. Given Bobby Jindal his booms as requested.

    Seriously, Huck – you really think that 2012 Presidential Candidate Jindel was doing anything other than political posturing.

    Further, Obama should have used… Presidential power to remove red tape that is getting in the way of a maximum response effort.

    So, you seriously think that a President – ANY President = has direct control of a Bureaucracy? That a President can just pick up a phone and say “do it” and it gets done?

    I wish it indeed were that way – but sadly it isn’t.

    – hp

  178. I’m sorry, I’ve been rather busy this week.

    Is there a report that someone can cite for me that details this recklessness that I keep hearing about?

    Last I heard, we had at least 11 dead, an expensive piece of hardware on the bottom of the Gulf that had only recently been given an award for its operations by the government and precious little knowledge of what the heck happened (outside of the obvious).

    I know the President used the word in his nothing speech, but he was also trying to deflect attention from the fact that Nike will soon be approaching him for the endorsements it took away from Tiger.

  179. Seriously, Huck – you really think that 2012 Presidential Candidate Jindel was doing anything other than political posturing.

    It wasn’t just the boom. It was the ability to erect barrier islands to prevent the oil from getting to the coastal marshes…something he could not do because doing so without the permission of the EPA and the Army Corps of Engineers is a big no no. He started asking early, when it was clear that cleaning up the oil filling the Gulf wasn’t really a priority of the feds, who chose to talk about being on it FROM DAY ONE and yell at BP too “Plug the hole”.

    Last I looked, the EPA was an Executive Agency, and the Army was under his command, so yes, I believe picking up the phone and saying to the person on the other end “Let the governor do what he needs to do to protect his state’s shoreline and wildlife, now” would have been met with a “Yes, sir”, and the subesquent issuance of the necessary permits and clearances.

    The lasting impact of this tradgedy could have been mitigated or avoided altogether by real leadership. Too bad for the Gulf Coast that we don’t have any.

  180. Rutherford said: HP, now that you’re here, take a gander at how Gorilla etal are once again enraged that Obama’s name should be associated with giving youngsters inspiration to achieve.

    Sheesh….. it never ends, does it?

    Right-wingers are always claiming that us lefties want to keep people down with our welfare state because it teaches them not to achieve. Then, when they see direct evidence that the left is trying to tell kids the can achieve – hey – then it is indoctrination.

    Sheesh….

    – hp

  181. And the hits just keep on coming. I’m thinking of a word….”priorities”…yes, that would be it.

    Sixteen barges sat stationary today, although they were sucking up thousands of gallons of BP’s oil as recently as Tuesday. Workers in hazmat suits and gas masks pumped the oil out of the Louisiana waters and into steel tanks. It was a homegrown idea that seemed to be effective at collecting the thick gunk.

    “These barges work. You’ve seen them work. You’ve seen them suck oil out of the water,” said Jindal.

    So why stop now?

    “The Coast Guard came and shut them down,” Jindal said. “You got men on the barges in the oil, and they have been told by the Coast Guard, ‘Cease and desist. Stop sucking up that oil.’”

    A Coast Guard representative told ABC News today that it shares the same goal as the governor.

    “We are all in this together. The enemy is the oil,” said Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Dan Lauer.

    But the Coast Guard ordered the stoppage because of reasons that Jindal found frustrating. The Coast Guard needed to confirm that there were fire extinguishers and life vests on board, and then it had trouble contacting the people who built the barges.

    http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/06/crude-sucking-barges-ordered-by-gov-jindal-stopped-by-feds/

  182. Right-wingers are always claiming that us lefties want to keep people down with our welfare state because it teaches them not to achieve. Then, when they see direct evidence that the left is trying to tell kids the can achieve – hey – then it is indoctrination.

    No, it smacks of indoctrination because their ability to achieve is linked to the Chicago Messiah.

    Achievement was possible without him. It may even be possible in spite of him. Time will tell.

  183. “The fund should pay for any needs these out of work folks in the Gulf area have … and if that includes health care then so be it.”

    No it shouldn’t. This isn’t AFLAC. The money should only be used to cover medical expenses brought on by the event. Not for insurance that might not even get used.

    And we can really drop the “GOP siding with BP” meme that you guys are attempting to create. The idiot who opened his mouth today has already been taken to the wood shed by Boehner and was instructed to apologize for his apology or face the whirlwind. He wisely complied.

    “Second, with the exception of his patient and very competent wife, Tex likes his women either smart and catty (Coulter) or dumb and catty (Palin). ”

    While Rutherford only cares what political party they belong to.

    “Those same right-wing policies contributed to the BP mess ”

    What right-wing policies would those be—specifically?

    It’s refreshing to see Hippie Professor be so open with his guilt-by-association argument. Most people wish to hide such shallow, baseless judgements.

    “Then, when they see direct evidence that the left is trying to tell kids the can achieve – hey – then it is indoctrination.”

    Because Barack Obama is the only example of achievement in America?

    If anyone were interested in keeping their politics out of the classroom they would have found another example of achievement.

  184. “No it shouldn’t. This isn’t AFLAC. The money should only be used to cover medical expenses brought on by the event. Not for insurance that might not even get used.”

    Before you guys jump all over this, I did not mean the money should only be used for that and nothing else. There are plenty of other things it should be used for. But health insurance that might not actually be used is not one of them. There won’t be enough if it gets used for non-essentials.

  185. BiW noted…. But the Coast Guard ordered the stoppage because of reasons that Jindal found frustrating. The Coast Guard needed to confirm that there were fire extinguishers and life vests on board, and then it had trouble contacting the people who built the barges.

    Oh – and I am so sure that Obama was in on that command-level decision. I bet he called the Coast Guard up and demanded that there were fire extinguishers and vests aboard before proceeding.

    I suspect the first he heard about the problem was from the media – which is in fact how any President would have heard of the issue.

    The fact that one of the boats sucking oil did actually catch fire last week is probably irrelevant too….

  186. Huck asks: What right-wing policies would those be—specifically?

    Seriously? How did the party that campaigned on “drill baby drill” contribute to the problem? How did the party that has championed deregulation contribute? Are you suggesting that party who gave us a Vice President with the middle name “Halliburton” has no blame here?

    Here are a few sources to check:

    http://www.alternet.org/environment/146848/gulf_oil_spill_proves_the_idiocy_of_unfettered_deregulation_?page=entire

  187. BiW said: Achievement was possible without him. It may even be possible in spite of him. Time will tell.

    I am sure you probably have tremendous experience educating minority children and working in inner city schools. Since you do have such deep experience, you probably know that this could well be the first time these kids have heard that they can achieve and be anything they want.

    I never cease to be amazed by how you guys can find a dark side to anything positive Obama or others do.

    – hp

  188. Huck said: It’s refreshing to see Hippie Professor be so open with his guilt-by-association argument. Most people wish to hide such shallow, baseless judgements.

    This from the same people who find it relevant to talk endlessly about the political views of Obama’s pastor and neighbors.

    When the associations we are talking about are your political party and the policies that party has pursued then the argument is very relevant.

  189. BIC asked: Is there a report that someone can cite for me that details this recklessness that I keep hearing about?

    Check out Tex Taylor’s post at #93.

  190. Huck said (#243): “No it shouldn’t. This isn’t AFLAC. The money should only be used to cover medical expenses brought on by the event. Not for insurance that might not even get used.”

    So – a family with a sick kid loses its jobs and its medical insurance because of the oil spill. But making BP pay for continuation of the medical insurance is wrong?

    Would you mind explaining your logic here? It sounds like the first of many attempts to short-change claimants because losing medical insurance wouldn’t fit into BP’s mantra of “all legitimate claims.

  191. Hippie Prof – I gave my take said somewhere earlier in this thread about the people who quake in their boots and shout “indoctrination” when they see children being exposed to Obama without an appropriate media filter.

    They know, somewhere deep down, that those kids are likely to grow up realizing that their Daddy is full of shit. That the kids will be too embarrassed to bring their friends or dates home at Thanksgiving to experience Daddy’s unpleasant Archie Bunker imitation.

  192. Huck –

    FYI, medical insurance is NOT a “non-essential.”

    Medical insurance is a matter of personal responsibility – making sure that you are in a position to pay your own bills instead of making the rest of us pay them for you when you get in a bad car accident

    I thought that that personal responsibility was something that your side believed in. Apparently not.

  193. “I am sure you probably have tremendous experience educating minority children and working in inner city schools.” hippieprof

    I do have experience teaching in inner city schools/juvenile prisons. I totally get your point, and to some extent you are right.

    However, you can’t blame Tex and the others for calling out the lyric “I want to be an Obama scholar” as being weird. Not if you have any sense of history of the 20th century and the indoctrination methods used in totalitarian schools.

    Come on dude. That is just weird. Add that to some of the other blatant indoctrination by teachers that made the news (the quasi military Obama march comes to mind) and I think they have a right to call it out.

    Ultimately, that kind of shit is probably still a positive in the inner city for the reasons you cited . Hell, the Nation of Islam was a positive in juvenile prisons. However, that teacher should be held to the fire for either being oblivious to how strange a chant like that sounds or for outright politically indoctrinating kids.

  194. We were terrible. Scored 3 runs. The other team, (the black dudes) didn’t even make it to the championship game.

    The new school, young dudes from our neighborhood won. Total upset.

    I’m still pissed off.

    I went 0/3 batting 4th and my 5th hitter went 0/3 as well.

  195. They know, somewhere deep down, that those kids are likely to grow up realizing that their Daddy is full of shit. That the kids will be too embarrassed to bring their friends or dates home at Thanksgiving to experience Daddy’s unpleasant Archie Bunker imitation.

    ABSO-F*CKING-LUTELY!!!!

    You NAILED it Gray. If you read the article that I wrote about the Obama address to children (if you google “time to impeach obama” it comes up at the top of the search) you’ll see that my daughter came home from school with a note “warning” us about the video and that she could be given an alternate activity if I didn’t want her to see it. I went bat-sh*t crazy when I read it.

    This is a case of the public school system main-lining color-blind inspiration into our kids and discouraging bigotry. That is the last thing some of the f*cked up adults in this country want. “I’m a cracker-head bigot and I’ll be damned if you’re gonna keep my kid from following in my footsteps.”

    Damn, Gray, you’ve made my morning for spelling it out so clearly! Thank you.

  196. Rabbit, let me say this about “Obama scholar”. No one on this board, including me, knows what the lesson plan was that included this phrase. We don’t know the context. My non-paranoid self believes Obama’s record (that only adults challenge) of academic achievement (Columbia, Harvard) is being used as a role model for these kids. Perhaps Tex, etal would like the kids to be taught that Obama was a lousy student? I don’t know.

    Here is the thing … and I think you know this. The inner city school system has perhaps just a four year window in which to tell minority kids that they can do anything they put their minds to, even be President. The words never had any bite behind them before. Now with a black man in the White House it is no longer a BS Pollyanna line. It’s reality. They don’t have to point to athletes, entertainers and rappers. They can point to the Pres-o-dent! That is powerful. Only someone obsessed with Obama-hate can’t see it.

    Mao was a case of political indoctrination. Obama is a case of academic indoctrination. And dammit, I want my kid to be indoctrinated that education is a good thing.

  197. Tigre, do you want your kids to be encouraged to achieve using appropriate role models or not? Let’s assume you are a stand-up Dad and that your kids really don’t need any role model other than you and your wife. Not all kids are that lucky.

    Get a grip dude.

  198. No one on this board, including me, knows what the lesson plan was that included this phrase.

    I actually wonder if “Obama Scholar” might even be an official program at the school? I know that the University of Arizona has a program called “Obama Scholars” and it wouldn’t surprise to see such a program at a high school.

    Yeah – the Archie Bunker bigots are going to hoot and holler about naming a program after the President. Let em’ hoot and holler – it just brings out their bigotry for all to see….

    The inner city school system has perhaps just a four year window in which to tell minority kids that they can do anything they put their minds to, even be President. The words never had any bite behind them before.

    You are absolutely right. I have written about this on my blog in the past. Unfortunately, the alternative message a lot of people seem to want to send is: “Look what happens when a ni@@er forgets his place and gets uppity – we lynch em! No – we don’t hang em’ from a tree anymore, but we are going to destroy em’ anyway….”

    – hp

  199. I don’t think we disagree Rutherford. That being said, I have no idea what greychin is even referencing with his Archie Bunker paragraph that you loved so much. Anyone care to explain?

    What about the kids in military fatigues doing some para-military march screaming Obama’s name? Was that cool too?

    If you replace the name Obama with the name Bush and changed the setting to a poor, Appalachian school, would you really have no problem with it in the year 2003? How about your fellow liberals?

    Perhaps the Appalachian kids could don military fatigues or brown shirts. And then they can militery drill chanting the praises of tax cuts or the war in Iraq.

  200. I know that the University of Arizona has a program called “Obama Scholars”

    In light of recent Arizona political developments, ain’t that friggin’ ironic? :-D

  201. I am sure you probably have tremendous experience educating minority children and working in inner city schools. Since you do have such deep experience, you probably know that this could well be the first time these kids have heard that they can achieve and be anything they want.

    Yes, I’m sure that “Black History Month” which highlights achievements of blacks never happened before they were taught chants crediting Barack Hussein Obama with all the achievements that they could attain, and the bringing of happiness that only he could do. After all, there simply hasn’t been a successful black person until his coast through Illinois, the U.S. Senate, and the White House.

    Why, oh why, do you persist in insisting that the inner city kids can only succeed with the benevolence of other (white) (and chosen black) people?

    I never cease to be amazed by how you guys can find a dark side to anything positive Obama or others do.

    I never cease to be amazed at the willingness of you guys to ascribe “good” things to him that would be completely unacceptable to you in any other context.

  202. “Look what happens when a ni@@er forgets his place and gets uppity –”

    Pure drama from a drama queen.

    I will use my Nation of Islam example. Farrakhan obviously empowers people (he’s actually a conservative if you’ve ever really studied him). I have seen first hand many people who, at least temporarily, improved there lives. Self esteem, work ethic, hygiene etc.

    Should we celebrate the Nation as a positive cultural force, hippieprof?

    Anytime a marginalized group glorifies one individual to such an extent that his fricking Administration’s policies are praised via “chant”, eyebrows should be raised.

    It’s might be effective, but I think there is plenty of debate over it being healthy in the long term. Put your racist gun back in your holster.

    What if Obama ends up cheating on his wife, taking bribes and smoking crack?

    Dangerous road to go down.

    Putting your cultural eggs in one basket when it comes to a conniving Chicago politician is a bit of gamble, don’t you think?

  203. Anytime a marginalized group glorifies one individual to such an extent that his fricking Administration’s policies are praised via “chant”, eyebrows should be raised.

    I completely agree. But this did not start as a generic discussion. It started as a discussion about a specific video in which no “policies” were being advocated. Being the best you can be, was being advocated. We take a completely positive message, throw the name Obama into it, and suddenly it’s evil? Makes no sense. Perhaps if they were called “Hitler scholars” I’d have to wonder what their point was. Then again, Tex and BiW and on-and-on have no problem listing Obama right along with Hitler and Mao.

    Also, Rabbit, glad you brought up Appalachia. I can’t think of a single example in the media where we saw poor white kids being encouraged to be all they can be. It’s a rotten shame …. and I’m not being sarcastic. But I have news for you. We don’t see it because the latent racism in our society tells these kids that just by being white they are already ahead of the game. A terrible message to send to a hopeless population.

    Truth is …. they need to be Bush (or Obama) scholars too.

  204. Rutherford, I followed the link to your “Time to impeach Obama” post. Well done! But I could tell that you were a bit emotional when you wrote it. :D

    I have been fascinated by right-wing derangement ever since my teens when I started hearing about the John Birch Society and home-town boy Billy James Hargis. Then there was a lot of really ugly nonsense aimed at John and Bobby Kennedy (which continued throughout Ted’s life). After some relative quiet during the golden era of Nixon, and the Pax Reagana, it flared up again in the 1990s in the form of really nutty Clinton-hatred. The WSJ op-ed page was convinced that SOMETHING went down in Mena AR, and they were, by God, going to get to the bottom of it! (I guess that Bill and Hillary were just too slick for the WSJ reporters. :D)

    All went relatively quiet again during the “W” Bush years. The nutty Right turned its attention to Arabs and Muslims (when it could tell the difference between the two), and were pleased to sit back and smile as Bush and his Republican enablers ran up the greatest deficits in history. Because deficit spending for war is good. Deficit spending to build America is bad.

    So as a life-long student of insanity on the Right, I observe that there has NEVER, EVER been anything to match their present derangement. Your proposed Articles of Impeachment ought to break through the defenses of all but the most hard-core Obama haters. Ought to… but probably won’t.

    I think there is some racial element to it – perhaps a significant one. But I believe that the more important factor is that the nutty Right realizes that Obama has the potential to be a great, charismatic leader – who can be EFFECTIVE. That’s what scares them. So they endlessly repeat their mantra that he is a weak leader, not smart, hides his bad grades at Columbia Harvard Law (!) where he was just an affirmative-action token and not a real student. If you repeat something often enough, people start to believe it.

    Or as Lenin put it: “A lie repeated often enough becomes truth.”

    In fact, Obama’s Administration has accomplished a fair amount so far, in spite of unprecedented lock-step obstruction from the minority party, and in spite of Obama’s own tendency to try to find common ground with these morons who have no interest in anything but lock-step obstruction.

    It’s raw fear that drives them. Fear that the myth of “government is the problem” will pop. Fear that someone will notice that lower taxes do NOT increase government revenue. Fear that their own kids will find them to be full of shit. Fear that the philosophy they have clung to for life is built on sand, and that the tsunami is going to wash it away.

    And yes, fear that heterosexual white Christians like themselves might be losing their grip on the levers.

  205. No…..it has nothing to do with your mysterious holy spirit other wise known as racism.

    Appalachian culture is completely diseased.

    They give Mountain Dew to infants in baby bottles. Nuff said.

  206. Should we celebrate the Nation as a positive cultural force, hippieprof?

    I don’t know enough about the present-day Nation of Islam to judge them. I do know that some people will see black faces and hear “Islam” and make an immediate judgment based on that alone.

    And I do know enough about some other “religious” organizations to judge whether or not they are a positive cultural force. For example, Pat Robertson’s organization fails the test miserably.

  207. hippie @248

    Since you do have such deep experience, you probably know that this could well be the first time these kids have heard that they can achieve and be anything they want.

    You are so full of it! The problem is people tell inner city kids over and over and over that they can achieve anything they want. The problem is,and the inner city kids know it,is that talk is cheap and reality is a bad mutha#$%^

  208. Truth is …. they need to be Bush (or Obama) scholars too.

    No, the truth is that they need to do it for themselves. Inspiration is one thing, but I don’t get out of bed in the morning for anyone else, especially a politician, and having children chant and sing about one spreading happiness is wrong on many levels.

  209. Hippie prof left off one of Obama’s qualifiers.

    You can achieve and be anything you want if you are willing to work hard for it.

    Alfie – would you rather tell kids that they live in a f**king ghetto and that the only way to get ahead is to deal drugs? If not, then I don’t get your point.

  210. having children chant and sing about one spreading happiness is wrong on many levels.

    BiW, you’re arguing about a fictional video in your head. The one that was posted says nothing about Obama spreading happiness. What are you smoking?

  211. Rabbit, you talk about black and Appalachian culture being diseased. Not only do I give you credit for your equal-opportunity pessimism, I’m not sure I can even argue with you …

    BUT

    How did they get that way? I get the sense that when it comes to the poor (and that is what inner city blacks and Appalachians have in common) you’re just ready to throw in the towel. How is their cultural disease reversible? If it isn’t reversible, then they are damned, aren’t they? Do you believe that it is hopeless for both populations?

  212. We take a completely positive message, throw the name Obama into it, and suddenly it’s evil? Makes no sense. Perhaps if they were called “Hitler scholars” I’d have to wonder what their point was.” – R

    What’s the difference? At least Hitler could poit to real job growth.

    The message should stand on its own. The issue isn’t the message, its the implication that the message is possible through and because of Obama.

  213. The issue isn’t the message, its the implication that the message is possible through and because of Obama.

    Sorry G, this is an excellent opportunity to point out the difference between implication and inference. The implication was not theirs. The inference is totally yours. :-)

  214. “you’re just ready to throw in the towel.”-R

    Quite the opposite. Throwing in the towel is throwing money at them and then turning a blind eye.

    They need to change their culture or all your welfare is worthless and actually harmful.

    By the way, I don’t know how anyone can say that chanting the greatness of Obama and the possibilities that this one man makes for a community isn’t at least fodder for debate.

    What disgusts me is a hateful hippieprof going on a three paragraph tangent about how racist we are for taking issue with it.

    That, my friends, is mindless hate.

  215. Getting back to the abortion topic for one second, here is a song dedication to the self-proclaimed pro-life contingent (actually we’re all pro-life but that’s another issue). However, listen carefully to Paul Anka … he actually sings a pro-choice verse in there:

    “Didn’t have to keep it
    Wouldn’t put you through it
    You could have swept if from your life but you wouldn’t do it
    No you wouldn’t do it”

    (As an aside, isn’t it a trip how his female duet partner’s voice materializes out of no where? Gotta love the old days of lip-syncing! :-)

  216. “You are so full of it! The problem is people tell inner city kids over and over and over that they can achieve anything they want. “-Alfie

    I completely disagree with that. Inner city youth are not told they can be anything they want. At least they aren’t told that where it counts, at home, by their Mom AND* Dad.

    They are told they can be docotrs, lawyers, not even line workers or construction workers.

    Ever notice there are very few blacks in the trades? Counter-intuitive isn’t?

    Why are there so many Mexican roofing crews and so few black ones?

    Just like Doctor, Roofer is also not on the list. Nor plumber, framer etc.

  217. No, I am an Obama scholar is not an inference, it is a statement of ownership.

    I am a Middle East Terrorism expert, there’s no inference there, those are qualifiers. I’m not an expert without them.

    Likewise, the statement above is that you’re not a scholar, you’re an Obama scholar.

    I’d think you’d be opposed to ownership…

  218. “Medical insurance is a matter of personal responsibility – making sure that you are in a position to pay your own bills instead of making the rest of us pay them for you when you get in a bad car accident ”

    And you plan to make sure people can pay their own bills by making someone else pay that bill? I don’t call that personal responsibility.

    If people need medical care, let BP pay for it. Problem solved. Paying for unused medical coverage is a non-essential.

    ——————————————————————-

    HippieProf, you have a great deal of catching up to do on the issue of the Deepwater Horizon and offshore drilling.

    First, the last I heard the President of the United States doesn’t form policy based on the campaign slogans of his opponents. Obama was all set to go forward with deepwater offshore drilling because he was told it is “absolutely safe.” Since we have no idea who that was who told him that, we can hardly blame the GOP.

    When Obama gave the go-ahead on deepwater offshore drilling, he purchased that ideology. It became his as much as anyone else’s. Period.

    Second. It was not the GOP who last year failed to inspect the Deepwater Horizon. You can blame the state of the MMS on Bush all you want. But the last I heard, Barack Obama was the man in charge of this country, and has been such for well over a year. We’re almost half way through his term, for Pete’s sake! Perhaps he could get his house in better shape if he spent less time on the links and entertaining musicians, and more time…you know…working.

    The federal government is supposed to inspect a rig once per month. They failed to do so, and that had nothing to do with deregulation. Period.

    “Are you suggesting that party who gave us a Vice President with the middle name “Halliburton” has no blame here?”

    No. Are you suggesting that the Obama Administration has no blame here? Because Barack Obama is the man in charge. Democrats are the party in charge. We don’t have to play your petty guilt-by-association games. If the system was broken by the GOP, then why didn’t the administration that has been in charge for nearly 2 years fix it?

    It’s really that simple. You folks are in charge. Did you form your policies based on GOP slogans?

    ——————————————————————–

    “you probably know that this could well be the first time these kids have heard that they can achieve and be anything they want.”

    You are failing to see the point.

    Why is Barack Obama the mark of achievement? Are there no other examples?

    If you want an example of scholarly achievement to give kids, why give them an example of someone who has hidden what little scholastic achievements he has achieved, when you can give them Condi?

    She is a much better scholar than Barack Obama. She has a Ph.D. She has published scholarly material. Obama has achieved neither. Being both black and female, she is also more of a minority than Barack Obama.

    The teachers wanted to teach the kids about Barack Obama from the day he was elected. I had 2 in school when he was. The next day I saw math teachers assign students essays on how Obama was going to change the country. So don’t try and feed me this bullshit that it is all about teaching achievement. It’s about teaching Obama. And it is a lesson that needs to be saved for when children have a better capacity to make their own decisions about a political ideology.

  219. “What disgusts me is a hateful hippieprof going on a three paragraph tangent about how racist we are for taking issue with it.”

    He thinks we are all racists regardless of what we do. We are white, so we are racists.

    His guilt-by-association knows no bounds.

  220. Obama will slit his own throat if he goes through with this.

    Clinton comment on immigration law riles Ariz. gov

    In a June 8 media interview in Ecuador that began circulating Thursday in the U.S., Clinton said President Barack Obama thinks the federal government should determine immigration policy and that the Justice Department “will be bringing a lawsuit against the act.”

    To learn of this lawsuit through an Ecuadorean interview with the secretary of state is just outrageous,” she said. “If our own government intends to sue our state to prevent illegal immigration enforcement, the least it can do is inform us before it informs the citizens of another nation.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100618/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_law_clinton

  221. ““Medical insurance is a matter of personal responsibility – making sure that you are in a position to pay your own bills instead of making the rest of us pay them for you when you get in a bad car accident ”

    That’s what I said. If someone lost his medical insurance because of BP’s stupidity, and he gets into an accident, you and I will have to pay his uninsured medical bills.

    Who is more responsible for those bills, Huck? You and me? Or BP?

    I have no idea why you can’t agree.

  222. “Obama will slit his own throat if he goes through with this.”

    Ape – then I trust that you are hoping that Obama goes through with it. Cutting his own throat and all.

    “She said….” Who said? Cut and paste more carefully, please.

  223. “Tigre do you want your kids to be encouraged to achieve using appropriate role models or not? Let’s assume you are a stand-up Dad and that your kids really don’t need any role model other than you and your wife. Not all kids are that lucky.”

    Ruhtherford, love the false choice. Yes, I would like an appropriate role model. I suspect our opinions as to who that might be differ. I assure you, Obama’s not one of them. Rev. Wright and William Ayers were role models for Obama. Should they be my children’s role models too?

    But I guess you all have figured me out. I am just an Archie Bunker and whatever unfounded other pejorative label you might like to assign based from G-Chin’s profound insight.

    Honestly, cut the crap. Both of my children are inner city students in very liberal, extremely ethnic, diverse neighborhood. At 8 years old my son endures tireless shit from his classmates and teachers because his father doesn’t support Obama and made the mistake of allowing that to be known. You know, my son was not invited to his best friend’s birthday party because of his father’s political affiliation that only came out because of a case that grabbed some media attention.

    I’ve had enough of the cult of personality, o.k.?

  224. This could also have a very heavy impact in November, and not in the dems favor…

    ABC News Poll: Nearly 6 in 10 Back Arizona Immigration Law

    http://abcnews.go.com/WN/poll-10-back-arizona-immigration-law/story?id=10943089

    70% of Arizona Voters Favor New State Measure Cracking Down On Illegal Immigration

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2010/election_2010_senate_elections/arizona/70_of_arizona_voters_favor_new_state_measure_cracking_down_on_illegal_immigration

    Poll: Majority Backs Arizona Immigration Bill

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20004030-503544.html

    Arizona Immigration Law Has Broad Support Across U.S., New Polls Show

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2010/05/two-national-polls-show-arizona-immigration-law-very-popular.html

  225. DR said: What disgusts me is a hateful hippieprof going on a three paragraph tangent about how racist we are for taking issue with it.

    Excuse me? When was I hateful?

    I actually thought you and I were agreeing on a few points there, at least for a moment. You are very very very correct: Black kids in the inner city are generally NOT told that they can be anything they want – at least not (as you say) where it counts.

    BiW and others seem to think that it is an easy thing to shake off the shackles of a childhood of inner-city poverty. They seem to think that it can be done by sheer force of will. Sure, some kids manage to do it – but not very many.

    I would also wager that virtually every one of those kids who do make it out have somebody somewhere who has taken them under their wing and inspired them and encouraged them to succeed. Maybe it was a grandmother. Maybe it was a teacher at school. Maybe it was a minister. But, I suspect there was always somebody. Nobody gets out on their own.

    Why is it so threatening to people that Obama might also be one of those positive inspirations?

    – hp

  226. DR said (in response to my suggestion that there are some who want to see Obama figuratively lynched): Pure drama from a drama queen.

    OK – maybe it is my lynching suggestion that has you labeling me “hateful.”

    I stand by my words. DR, in all due respect, you are being naive here. There are plenty of people who don’t want to stop at Obama being defeated politically. Some people want to see him DESTROYED. That is what I mean by a figurative lynching.

    Don’t believe me? Tex has said as much here on this very blog, numerous times. Limbaugh has said it. Any number of right-wing talkers have said it or at least implied it.

    Is it racist? I can’t prove it for sure. Some people will claim it is just a political difference. I can tell you that I saw nothing like this level of hatred hurled at Bill Clinton, whose politics are just as far left as Obama’s – and whose personal behavior was reprehensible.

    – hp

  227. El Tigre said: You know, my son was not invited to his best friend’s birthday party because of his father’s political affiliation that only came out because of a case that grabbed some media attention.

    What you describe is extremely sad. But, do you somehow think that only liberals are guilty of such acts? I can tell you for certain that it isn’t the case. I guess I am the opposite of you – a liberal living in an extremely conservative community – and my kids have suffered because of my political behavior.

    Sorry, neither side of the political spectrum has the market cornered on petty behavior.

    – hp

  228. BiW, you’re arguing about a fictional video in your head.

    No, I was just talking about a different one, with many of the same characteristics of the one posted. I was referring to this one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdPSqL9_mfM&feature=related

    But i’m always glad to know that while the second example is unacceptable, the previous one is perfectly ok, because it is inspirational and lets kids know that they can achieve anything, or some such rot. No double standards at play here. Nothing creepy at all about it. Move along, nothing to see here.

  229. when you can give them Condi?

    Condi sure ain’t chopped liver. That’s for sure. But President resonates with kids a lot more than Secretary of State. Given the poor state of education in this country, many kids may not even know Sec of State is a job worth having. Plus, Condi broke no barriers that an observant kid hasn’t seen before. Albright was a female Sec of State before Condi and Powell was a black Sec of State before Condi. No one was a black President before Obama.

  230. Hippie, I am indeed aware that the petty behaviour applies to both sides. However, what does not exist on both sides is the idol worship and false allegations of bigotry.

    I am always surprised when guys like you and Rutherford, who plainly have the intellectual capacity to know the difference between ad hominem attack and logic, find that labeling someone a bigot, racist, misogynist,etc., a suitable alternative to meaningful insight. And frankly, in my experience, there’s an almost universal Freudian component to the allegation.

  231. He thinks we are all racists regardless of what we do. We are white, so we are racists.

    I think HP is white too. And I suspect he considers those with a knee jerk opposition to Obama potentially MORE racist than he is.

    We all have to struggle against racism. But please, now you’re accusing a white guy of playing the “race card”? I thought that was reserved for Sharpton, Jackson, etal?

  232. Some questions for the Lefts:
    HP: Are you familiar with UCLA’s David Sears?
    HP @295: Not really a question but since I almost always disagree with you I thought I’d applaud the:

    Sorry, neither side of the political spectrum has the market cornered on petty behavior.

    Graychin. (and any other chin) It’s Brewer AZ Gov. Isn’t Hill a little out of line?
    Also back to HP

    Why is it so threatening to people that Obama might also be one of those positive inspirations?

    Threatening? Are you for real?

  233. I’m actually more curious about anyone’s view on a different take on the Obama mania stuff.

    The part I don’t get is the volume and urgency to go to the O. I almost pity the guy for being used to this extent.
    Schools being named after him,scholarships (ASU of all places huh)named after him and the whole primary school years bit that overwhelmingly are more about parents and teachers inner lunatic issues.
    No disrespect intended but most other POTUS’s need to die or serve out a term before such accolades are bestowed.
    Seriously, any open minded comments on that?

  234. On a side note no Tex since last night. Rutherford where is your concern that Graychin didn’t road trip and whack him? (no offense GC :))

  235. BiW and others seem to think that it is an easy thing to shake off the shackles of a childhood of inner-city poverty. They seem to think that it can be done by sheer force of will. Sure, some kids manage to do it – but not very many.

    I agree. When government started giving more candy to the households without Daddy, than to the ones with them, it removed a primary example from the equation for a lot of kids.

    The difference between you and me is that I have no illusions that more government interference and the addition of President worship will improve that.

    There are plenty of people who don’t want to stop at Obama being defeated politically.

    How is it that a man who becomes the leader of this nation and starts telling us that we can’t or we shouldn’t, and that we’re no different from other countries, and that our best days are behind us should be held up as a role model. That is the talk of someone who already views us—all of us—as limited in our abilities. He ran for offiuce selling us The Politics of Lowered Expectations&; and commenced to deliver it the minute he got into office. Some of the notions underlying the Healh Care Take over underscore his belief that people cannot tend to their own needs without the assistence of a beneovlent government. Cap and Trade would create an energy tax that is certain to drive much of the remaining manufacturing from our shores to the rest of the world, which has no interest in hamstringing their economies for the sake of dubious science. Ideas like that don’t belong in our government. They don’t belong anywhere in this nation.

  236. El Tigre said: I am always surprised when guys like you and Rutherford, who plainly have the intellectual capacity to know the difference between ad hominem attack and logic, find that labeling someone a bigot, racist, misogynist,etc., a suitable alternative to meaningful insight.

    I am happy that you think I have some intellectual capacity… ;)

    I think there is a bit more logic to my positions than you give me credit for, though. I argued earlier that Bill Clinton was not the target of intense hatred the way Obama has been, even though Clinton’s policies are just as liberal (or more liberal) and even though Clinton’s personal life was a mess. Racism is one possible explanation. There might be others.

    It doesn’t help when some people show overt racism – when SC politicians call Obama a “raghead” and when people carry racist signs at Tea Party rallies and when people on conservatives blogs slip up on occasion and say something overtly racist. When I see that stuff I do indeed call it what it is.

    I have argued back on my own blog that much of modern racism is subtle and perhaps even unconscious. There is substantial empirical evidence for that.

    – hp

  237. Alfie asked: HP: Are you familiar with UCLA’s David Sears?

    No – that is not my branch of Psychology – but what I see on his website looks interesting. Why do you ask?

    BTW – thanks for recognizing that we do agree occasionally. It is nice to have you say something to me other than “you are so full of $hit!” ;)

  238. Alife asks: No disrespect intended but most other POTUS’s need to die or serve out a term before such accolades are bestowed. Seriously, any open minded comments on that?

    I will bite.

    I agree that this is unprecedented. Most Presidents are indeed not honored so quickly.

    I think it reflects the fact that Obama is indeed an inspiration to a big segment of our population. It is simply a fact, like it or not. For those who are not inspired by Obama I suspect it is a difficult thing to understand. In fact, I think it arouses anger. It is probably one reason we see all the hatred directed at Obama.

    But here’s the thing: Even if you are not inspired by Obama, you can’t take that away from people who are inspired. Yet, time and again, I see people trying to do exactly that. All of the time I see people saying “you really shouldn’t be inspired by Obama because…. (criticism of the day).” Sorry, but I think it is wrong to try to undermine what someone else finds inspirational.

    (yes – and I know that one response will be that us lefties try to undermine people’s inspiration all the time. Perhaps that is true of some on the left, but I try to avoid doing so myself.)

    – hp

  239. HP I looked at my comment #273 and I clearly said “it” but I’ll accept intent was initially there before the rage subsided. Perhaps I lived unchecked elsewhere. Civility is my goal and I confess to falling short at times.
    On Sears many of his writings and definitely his new NSF/RAPID grant project struck me to be something you’d find either interesting and or agree with.Also I am having a nagging feeling that I have read some things from him and was wondering if folks on my political polar opposite had any thoughts.Needle in a haystack kind of thing,no worries.

  240. BTW – thanks for recognizing that we do agree occasionally. It is nice to have you say something to me other than “you are so full of $hit!”

    Oh, if we kept the conversation away from politics, I imagine we might have some interesting conversations about music or life in the midwest, just as I’m equally sure I could sit at a bar all day long with Rutherford, knocking back beers, and having a great time, as long as we didn’t discuss politics. After all, I spent several years in the Dilbert-like world of retail banking, and I know that there are many commonalities to the corporate culture.

  241. Holy Crap near agreements with HP twice in the same century!!!
    Well just to spin it a little from my side,although I’m not necessarily sure I’m embraced by any side fully.

    Isn’t there a line between the desire to inspire and some of the realities and expectations that are fairly placed on BHO and those that are supposedly being inspired?

    I hope that makes some sense

  242. Sorry, but I think it is wrong to try to undermine what someone else finds inspirational.

    (yes – and I know that one response will be that us lefties try to undermine people’s inspiration all the time. Perhaps that is true of some on the left, but I try to avoid doing so myself.)

    Thank you for that.

  243. Tigre, Obama is to blame because you live among assh*les? I think it is terrible that your kid is ostracized because of your beliefs. Heck, I think it’s terrible for you to be ostracized for your beliefs. You’ve never said anything here that makes me think you need to be “avoided” or shunned. I disagree with your politics.

    I will say this. Thank goodness for blogs. In the real world, Huck is afraid to express his opinions for fear of career setback. You open your mouth and your kid gets sh*t. And quite frankly I’m not too vocal with my neighbors because whenever I do bring up politics, you can hear a pin drop. It’s no wonder the country can’t make any real progress. We can’t f*cking talk to each other.

  244. Alfie said: HP I looked at my comment #273 and I clearly said “it” but I’ll accept intent was initially there before the rage subsided. Perhaps I lived unchecked elsewhere. Civility is my goal and I confess to falling short at times.

    Hey – no offense taken. I thought it was funny. Actually, I have a seriously filthy mouth and I really never take offense when someone else speaks freely, even when doing so is against wordpress policy.

    Look, Alfie – we disagree a lot. But I respect people who are passionate about their ideas, and you certainly are. Only a tiny percentage of the population cares enough to jump into the blogging mudpit and fight it out. I wish more people cared. We would certainly have a better informed electorate.

  245. ROTFLMAO!!!!!! BiW holy cow! I watched your Obama kids video. I’m sorry dude but we’re talking apples and oranges.

    The video that prompted this discussion was about kids achieving, NOT about Obama getting elected …. or even about Obama effecting change. I don’t blame you for being creeped out by the Obama kids vid that you posted. The adults involved in it should be ashamed of themselves … complete with campaign posters in the background. How you cannot see the difference between what you posted and what was posted by Gorilla is totally beyond me.

    But while we’re at it, even the Obama kids vid talked about the change that would come if Obama were elected. It did not call Obama our savior as the Hitler video did. So even then, the video was a stretch.

  246. I think Rabbit has broached a point worth noting and that I can agree with. Role models in general, may be an unwise idea for the simple reason that humans are …. human. We see this all the time in sports. Some guy (like Tiger Woods) is admired by youngsters and then when the guy (Tiger Woods) takes a huge fall from grace, the kid’s image of the hero is shattered.

    Idolizing anyone carries risks. If that is the crux of Rabbit’s argument, I can see that. Still, kids learn by example. As long as the message to kids is “as long as you study hard and work hard, you can be President and your skin color has nothing to do with it”, then I don’t have a problem with Obama being an example that proves that.

  247. Alife asks: No disrespect intended but most other POTUS’s need to die or serve out a term before such accolades are bestowed. Seriously, any open minded comments on that?

    Did you watch Obama’s inauguration? There were a lot of black people out there with tears in their eyes. Joyful to be present on that occasion and not expecting to have lived to see the inauguration of a black president.

    I don’t remember anyone crying tears of joy when either Bush was inaugurated. Not even at Reagan’s inauguration. Or at the inauguration of any other old white guy. Been there, done that.

    So Alfie – I think that you just don’t get how much of a big deal it is that we have a black president. Frankly, I don’t get it either, and sometimes it seems silly to me. Ideally, we should be color-blind. But we aren’t – are we?

    So try to see it from someone else’s point of view. It IS a big deal.

  248. Seriously, any open minded comments on that?

    Alfie, I’ll be the first to admit that the Nobel prize was a prime example of Obama mania gone berserk. And you are right to recognize (I think you recognize it) that Obama did not ask for all of this admiration.

    What you fail to grasp … and I don’t know why you fail to grasp it … is that I did not think I would see a black President in my lifetime. My 82 year old father definitely didn’t think he would see it. My Dad does not, in general like Obama. He thinks he’s slick and too polished. But he is still moved by the fact that after hundreds of years of second class citizenship, a black man was elected President of the United States.

    And I’ll go one step further. If Obama achieves nothing and gets only one term, his contribution will be tremendous because my daughter will never know there was a time that a black man could not reasonably be expected to be President. It is profound.

  249. R, they’re not isolated and that is my, and I’d suspect BiW’s, point.

    Let’s think about this, the only achievement Obama has thus far is…being elected. Wow, a great campaign, and one that O and the rest of you on the left consistently go back to as evidence of leadership.

    I’m inspired daily by the achievements of others, I don’t sing a chant to them…

  250. On a side note no Tex since last night. Rutherford where is your concern that Graychin didn’t road trip and whack him? (no offense GC :))

    Believe it or not, Alfie, my interrogation of Gray was planned for later in the day. I’ve been too busy engaging in the dialogue.

    So yes, while we’re here ….. Gray what did you do with Tex? You’re the only one in close proximity. :-) (I asked Tex a similar question when you went AWOL for a day or so.)

    One thing I’ve always liked about the geographic diversity of this group is I never needed to worry about a chance encounter resulting in a punch in the nose …. until now. :shock:

  251. “Tigre, Obama is to blame because you live among assh*les?”

    No. And that was not point, which should have been obvious to you had you more carefully considered my comments.

    1. Obama is not my messiah;
    2. I don’t consider Obama worthy of emulation or the admiration that the vocal left assigns to him and insists others do too;
    3. I am a parent and free to have that opinion;
    4. my child apparently does not;
    5. there’s no shortage of exposure to Obama for any child anywhere in the country;
    6. the caricature that lefties like you and G-chin like to portray of anyone that refuses to drink Obama’s bath water is repugnant (e.g. Archie Bunker); and
    7. I am slightly disappointed that your found a scintilla of wisdom in G-chin’s ridiculous observation.

    The comments about my son were an anecdotal attempt to debunk the content and tenor of your statements ending with “get a grip.”

    With that said, I enjoy the fact that you need to strap on a helmet if you intend to participate in these discussions. However, this time, I will simply lift my middle finger to my monitor rather than blurt out what I really think of your comments.

  252. Well G, we’ll have to agree to disagree that your video example was anything to get overly upset about. In truth, you would have been better off posting BiW’s video or even the classic “Barack Hussein Obama, mmm mmm mmm”.

    I just think your example of hero worship was piss poor.

  253. I didn’t whack Tex. And if I did, I wouldn’t admit it. :D

    I did embarrass Tex rather severely yesterday on another blog. I mocked him for writing so much about my personal shortcomings and for his obsession with me. I also lumped him together with some psycho who calls himself “dick” and who seems to hate me almost as much as Tex does. I called them my fanboys.

    That might explain Tex’s absence today, except that Tex has no shame whatsoever.

  254. Ape –

    If you don’t like being compared to Archie Bunker, you’re going to have to stop making comments like #322.

    Are you capable of understanding what I’m talking about?

  255. Rutherford, reading what you wrote at #317 made me think that I got it somewhere close to right in my comment #316.

    Not bad for a white boy from Delaware County, Oklahoma. :D

  256. Well Gray, even though the likely explanation is that Tex has a life outside this blog (NO IT CAN’T BE TRUE!) I do have another theory. Tex does sometimes disappear when he’s gone over the line and I think his open ended and ambiguous comment about HP’s reputation as a professor may have even embarrassed Tex. I’m not sure what he was getting at … it may have been innocent but it was stated with sufficient ambiguity to be suspect.

    As for Dick …. I assume you’re referring to the homicidal clown who frequents BiW’s site and the Hostages? He plays deranged better than just about anyone I’ve encountered. He’s an example of where geographic diversity and anonymity are a good thing. ;-)

  257. I did embarrass Tex rather severely yesterday on another blog.

    No, you didn’t. You said something that wasn’t true, and patted yourself on you back for your cleverness, but they really aren’t the same things.

    I’m not inclined to see Tex’s absence as any great mystery, it could be that this is Father’s Day weekend, and his wife and daughter are spending it with him…at least until they finally discover that he is an Archie Bunker wannabe, and their shame at being associated with him leads them straight into the company of those inspired by a man who crowning acheivement was getting elected.

  258. Rutherford said: Tex does sometimes disappear when he’s gone over the line and I think his open ended and ambiguous comment about HP’s reputation as a professor may have even embarrassed Tex.

    Haha…. yeah… I wondered about that as well. In fact, I have even entertained the improbable notion that my response actually put him in his place….

  259. Gorilla said: Let’s think about this, the only achievement Obama has thus far is…being elected. Wow, a great campaign, and one that O and the rest of you on the left consistently go back to as evidence of leadership.

    Seriously? I seem to remember a Health Care Reform bill, a Wall Street Reform bill, a stimulus package that rescued the economy from catastrophic implosion?

    Just because you disagree with his accomplishments doesn’t mean there haven’t been any.

    I guess we do have a slight agreement. Obama hasn’t accomplished nearly what I had hoped he would. None of his accomplishments have been progressive enough. We should have had a robust public option in the HCR bill, we should have had real regulation in the Wall Street bill, and the stimulus should have been larger.

    But, he did the best he could with the spineless chickens in congress.

    – hp

  260. But, he did the best he could with the spineless chickens in congress.

    You must be talking about the Dems…since those “lock-step obstructionist” Republicans didn’t have the numbers to prevent the passage of any bill the Dems wanted to bring forth.

  261. Will someone besides me please explain to the Ape why his comment at #322 might lead someone to compare him to Archie Bunker? I don’t think he will listen to me , but perhaps he will listen to one of his, um, conservative brethren.

    The “Archie Bunker” reference seems to have wounded the Ape deeply, but actually Archie wasn’t a bad guy at all. I was a fan of the show, and watched it regularly.

    No, Archie was a good man, and a softy deep down. But he said some really jaw-dropping things sometimes, not out of any malice, but…. well, someone else please explain.

    If no one else sees any Archie Bunker in the Ape’s comment, then I will withdraw my criticism of the Ape for having made it.,

  262. G-chin, are trying to accuse Gorilla of making a racist remark again? If so, give it a damn rest. The offense to your and Rutherfor’ds inane Archie Bunker reference was from me.

  263. those “lock-step obstructionist” Republicans didn’t have the numbers to prevent the passage of any bill the Dems wanted to bring forth.

    Actually – they did. And they do.

    Anyone who counts Senators Ben Nelson (NE) and Joe Lieberman (CT), and the House Blue Dogs as part of a reliable Democratic caucus is hallucinating.

  264. Rutherford said: What you fail to grasp … and I don’t know why you fail to grasp it … is that I did not think I would see a black President in my lifetime. </em?

    That is the crux of it, Rutherford. I have been saying this over and over and over and over and over and I am getting tired of repeating myself. White guys like me (you were right in that conclusion) really won't even understand Obama's significance to the black community. I grew up knowing – indeed never questioning – the idea that I could be whatever I wanted to be. Members of the black community most certainly have not grown up with that same belief.

    What I really don't get – I mean REALLY don't get – is why people are so bothered that Obama's election is symbolic and inspirational to the black community. Unless you are a complete bigot – a real Archie Bunker type – you have to feel that real integration of the black community into "mainstream" society will be a positive thing for everybody. Does anyone seriously disagree with that?

    If Obama's inspirational status indeed helps the black community to integrate, how can anyone find fault with that?

    – hp

    P.S. I have maintained above that the black community is not presently integrated into "mainstream" society. That will probably strike some as controversial. It will also require a lengthy argument, so lets stay away from that issue for the moment.

  265. Really?

    We learn new things regularly about HCR, like how the WH #’s continue to be shown wrong and inaccurate. Shit, just today, what did we see? The Doc fix is in, you know, the one that the WH intentionally took out of the HCR bill to misrepresent the numbers. Congrats on doing exactly what we said you’d do.

    Not to mention that the majority of Americans want the HCR bill repealed. Success?

    Wall St. Reform? Really, what do you think its going to do?

    Stimulus? You can’t be serious. It has and continues to be a complete failure. Jobs saved? Its a fabricated metric, never ever used before. The only value it has is to show the corruption of this administration in rewarding the political patriation of the unions.

    Really, you need to get a grip…

  266. Nelson and Lieberman represent Big Insurance, first and foremost. The insurance industry calls the shots in their states.

    Watch for both of them to retire from the Senate when their terms expire and take cushy, high paying jobs in the insurance industry.

  267. Because of your cryptic allusions and reference to Archie Bunker were on the heels of your and Rutherford’s comments to the effect that nobody here seems to understand the racial aspects of Obama’s election. Since I am obviously not as smart as you, please explain exactly what you meant.

  268. Gorilla, Americans only want HCR repealed because they don’t understand the intricacies of the bill. The only individual part of the bill they don’t like is the individual mandate – which of course has to be there for the popular stuff (like having pre-existing conditions covered).

    Of course, part of the problem is also that Pravda-FOX and others have actually managed to convince people that this is some sort of progressive (socialist?) bill. Progressives snort at that. The problem with the bill is in doesn’t go far enough.

    When push comes to shove, taking insurance away from 30 million or so people will not be a winning election strategy for you guys.

    As for the stimulus, too bad we don’t have a control group. If you think the economy is bad now – sheesh – I would hate to see the nightmare in the absence of the stimulus. Oh – and there are a fair number of economists and business leaders who think the stimulus has worked (Bill Gates just said so yesterday, as a matter of fact). You just never get to hear from them on Pravda-FOX.

    – hp

  269. Pravda-Fox? The White House will emial MSNBC while they are on the air to “correct” a story, but won’t take an open invitation from Beck to call during his show and “correct” alleged “falsehoods” in what he says.

    You don’t like Fox. I get it. But to equate them with the Soviet State news organs when MSNBC correspondents get emailed by the WH when they are on the air?

    I think you have that backwards.

  270. Hint – Archie Bunker wasn’t a bad guy at all. I would have enjoyed knowing him.

    He was a man of his time. He grew up during the Great Depression and fought in World War II. But by the time that 1970 arrived, Archie was lost. Changes in society had overwhelmed him.

    Being a man of his time, Archie also grew up in the Jim Crow era. He wasn’t a racist in the sense that he hated anyone. Actually he could be very compassionate at the same time that he was being hilariously politically incorrect. He just didn’t understand the changes that swept through America in the late 1960′s.

    Archie’s daughter married a hippie (Rob Reiner), so both sides of the political spectrum were satirized. Archie couldn’t understand “Meathead” at all – Meathead even slept with Archie’s daughter before they were married – but Archie and Meathead eventually loved each other like a father and son.

    But for all his good qualities, Archie still wouldn’t have been much fun at Thanksgiving dinner.

    By today’s standards, Republicans would consider Archie to be hopelessly liberal.

    Did that help? Probably not.

  271. Concerning the stimulus that “didn’t work” -

    Obama told his international colleagues in a letter obtained by the Washington Post, “I am committed to the restoration of fiscal sustainability, but it is critical that the timing and pace of consolidation in each economy suit the needs of the global economy, the momentum of private sector demand, and national circumstances.”

    Vice President Biden added yesterday, “This is not a time to take our foot off the accelerator here. We still need to continue to create jobs and spur job growth.”

    If we don’t, the economy will start shrinking again, and we’ll never reach fiscal sustainability.

  272. Well here’s my last for this long thread.
    Rutherford yes I don’t think he asked for it.
    Yes I do get why many many if not all blacks take great pride,joy and connection to Obamas Presidency.
    My thing is though a lot of the singing,refreshing and accolades come from white folks who seem to be far less honest in their views.
    I’m not taking anything away from the black community at all,and I could go on and on further explaining my position there. (Rutherford you may be the only one that gets this due to your college days) My issue is with the Brookline,Newton,Dover,Cmbridge types who seem to be the Messiah meme drivers.
    The blacks just seem hopeful,relieved and positive.
    Cheers.

  273. Gorilla, Americans only want HCR repealed because they don’t understand the intricacies of the bill.

    Neither did Congress when they passed it, hence Nancy’s remark about having to pass the bill to see what’s in it. Miles from how Obama told us legislation was going to be done on his watch.

  274. Yes, BiW – Pravda-FOX.

    Pravda was a propaganda tool for the Communist party.

    FOX is a propaganda tool for the Republican party – and now the Tea Party (which they even helped to create).

    It is absolutely unprecedented in a western democracy, and it is exceptionally dangerous.

    Say what you like about MSNBC. Indeed, they have quite a few slanted opinion shows. They also have a tiny audience by comparison, and to be honest most liberals I know don’t go there for their news.

    It isn’t even the slanted opinion shows on FOX I am upset about (though those are indeed awful). It is the way they slant their “straight” news reports.

  275. I really lied…

    It is the way they slant their “straight” news reports.

    Would you include spins such as migrant instead of illegal alien,fighter as opposed to terrorist etc. as examples of slanting straight news?

  276. Pravda was a propaganda tool for the Communist party.

    FOX is a propaganda tool for the Republican party – and now the Tea Party (which they even helped to create).

    The Communist Party that WAS the government…something that the Republicans and the Tea Party are not.

    It is absolutely unprecedented in a western democracy, and it is exceptionally dangerous.

    Nice hyperbole. However, having spent time in the government of a western democracy (Canada) that actually underwrites the budget of a nationswide broadcaster (the CBC), and knowing that the BBC is funded in a similar fashion, I’m not ready to apply one of the President’s favorite words to your example.

    Say what you like about MSNBC. Indeed, they have quite a few slanted opinion shows.
    A few? I had no idea we were being so imprecise.

    They also have a tiny audience by comparison,

    Kind of like those newspapers that the government wants to save by squelching other voices…hmmmmm.

    It isn’t even the slanted opinion shows on FOX I am upset about (though those are indeed awful). It is the way they slant their “straight” news reports.

    But government funded NPR is the model of neutrality, I’m sure.

  277. BiW – NPR receives relatively little of its funding from the government. You might find this interesting too (pasted from wikipedia):

    “A study conducted by researchers at UCLA and the University of Missouri found that while NPR is “often cited by conservatives as an egregious example of a liberal news outlet”, “[b]y our estimate, NPR hardly differs from the average mainstream news outlet. Its score is approximately equal to those of Time, Newsweek and U.S. News & World Report and its score is slightly more conservative than The Washington Post’s.”[28] It did find NPR to be more liberal than the average U.S. voter of the time of the study and more conservative than the average U.S. Democrat of the time. Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, a progressive media watchdog group,[29] also disputes the claim of a liberal bias.[30]“

  278. Just for giggles, I turned to 88.5 KPLU on my longer than normal drive home today ($7 a gallon gas under Cap and Tax should aleviate that for me) and I was treated to a story about sharing money in college football and a story on the sad, tragic death of a Portugese Communist Novelist.

  279. A few closing remarks on Archie Bunker before I retire for the night.

    I was forbidden to watch All in the Family when it first aired. My parents didn’t want me discussing it at school. I was not yet 10 years old when it debuted in 1971.

    What I observed when I watched later episodes (I was 18 when it got transformed into “Archie Bunker’s Place”) was that Archie became more human, Truthfully, the early Archie was not someone I’d particularly like to have a beer with. He was a loathsome bigot. I think Norman Lear figured out as he went along that to achieve his goal of teaching about bigotry, he’d have to make Archie more human.

    When Edith died, I felt terrible for Archie. By that point, Lear and the actor Carroll O’Connor had achieved the goal of making Archie someone you could care about.

    The truth is I find the hallmark of true bigotry to be stupidity and ignorance. Since I don’t consider anyone here stupid or particularly ignorant, I wouldn’t call anyone on this board a bigot. And while I agree that the open hatred of Obama among many trumps what Bill Clinton received, I suspect that most of the conservatives on this board loathed Bill Clinton and had I been a blogger back then, we’d be having similar conversations.

  280. In case I don’t get a chance to comment before Sunday … Happy Father’s Day to all of you who are one and all of you still lucky enough to have one. :-D

  281. “It is absolutely unprecedented in a western democracy, and it is exceptionally dangerous. “-hippieprof

    Come on dude. You’re a big time college professor guy. Surely you’ve taken in a little old fashioned Americana and read newspapers on microfilm from the 19th century?

    This reminds me of the time you gave that fatherly advice about the recent weather trends in your own backyard.

    Remember?

    I did a simple Google search of the temps only to find out that your claims were verifiably dead wrong (the opposite being true), and you even had no clue of what the averages/record temps were.

    This was outside your own fucking house!

    Now you’re saying that slanted journalism is outrageously unprecedented. (Of course only pointing out Fox)

    Are you kidding me!

    You even take it a step farther and claim FOX News to be not just unprecedented in America but for all of the democratic Western world?

    LOL

    I’m guessing this painting means nothing to you, ol’ wise one.

  282. How about to those of us who happen to be one, R?

    I’m afraid you stumped me BiW. I thought I covered that base. Reread 361: all of you who are one and all of you still lucky enough to have one.

  283. NPR is slanted to the left. Who cares? Where else can I get a radio news report on what’s going on in Nepal (with those awesome sound effects to boot)

    Yeah, Terri Gross’ “Air” aint so fresh and, instead, a little pretentious. And you just know “Meeeechelle” Norris was a normal “Michelle” in high-school.

    But nothing compares to NPR on the radio. I agree with Hippieprof, it’s only slightly to the left. And anyone with a brain can see when it veers that way.

    I’m not ashamed to say I love NPR.

  284. BiC…I was just kind of spouting off how I feel about NPR…..I wasn’t responding to what you said. In fact, I feel what you said to be a valid point.

  285. I’m afraid you stumped me BiW. I thought I covered that base. Reread 361: all of you who are one and all of you still lucky enough to have one.

    That’s what I get spending the evening out with my boys…my attention span starts to mirror theirs. :lol:

  286. Well…..I have to give a Best Man speech tomorrow. My little brother, a rookie pharmacist, is marrying a little hottie who also is rookie pharmacist.

    In fact she’s one of those Dutch Reform people who live on the west side of the state. Her side of the family were singing all these songs at my parent’s house after the rehearsal dinner.

    I don’t play the Eastern European roots thing much. But damn….my Grandpa came to this country from Lithuania with 7 bucks in his hand. He was one of 12 brothers and sisters.

    My Dad married the granddaughter of another Lithuanian immigrant (A Pole from Vilnius) and Bam! The Dead Rabbit is born.

    My brother and his wife will be grossing 220,000 dollars a year at the ages of 25. (Let it be known: He worked damn hard to graduate and is a smart motherfucker)

    Only in America!

    7 bucks and two generations later.

  287. DR said: I’m not ashamed to say I love NPR.

    Dude, I think there must be two people posting on your account the last couple of days. One minute you are slamming me about my observations regarding cold winters – and the next minute you are saying reasonable things about NPR.
    ;)

    Remember, by the way, that I never conceded the point on the weather. Even if I exaggerated how cold it gets here (and indeed it gets damned cold) I stand by my observation that it generally does not snow when it is extremely cold – and hence snowfall is not a good measure of warming/cooling trends.

    Have a good time at the wedding – sounds like it could be fun!

    – hp

  288. …hence snowfall is not a good measure of warming/cooling trends.

    One more data point: here in Oklahoma we don’t get a lot of snow. But our heaviest and most troublesome snowfalls have always been in late February and early March – when it’s not so cold.

    The big snows around the country this past winter were NOT due to colder weather. More likely they were due to a not-so-cold winter.

  289. Ahhh…..I get it now. It was warm weather that caused the historic and epic snow storms in the south.

  290. When it comes to weather – stuff happens. Like I said, my weather is just one data point. The bilzzards of 2010 are one data point.

    The debate over climate change would make a lot more sense if everyone involved would learn the difference between weather and climate.

  291. DR said: Ahhh…..I get it now. It was warm weather that caused the historic and epic snow storms in the south.

    Graychin hit it on the head when he said we need to remember the distinction between climate and short-term weather patterns.

    I don’t know how I can explain myself more clearly. Two things have to be there for snow to occur: Cold air and wet air. Extremely cold air hols less moisture and it snows less when it is extremely cold. But, we are not talking about extreme cold in the south. We are talking about air that is just a bit below freezing.

    Weather patterns in the south are typically a function of relatively cold arctic air (coming from the north) meeting warmer, moisture-laden air coming from the gulf. When these two air masses meet in the summer, in causes thunderstorms. When the meet in the winter, in causes snow or heavy, cold rains.

    You are assuming that the snows in the south occurred because there was more cold arctic air than usual. An alternative, however, was that there was more moisture in the southern air mass – which would occur – ahem – if it were warmer than usual over the gulf and there was greater evaporation.

    I don’t know which actually occurred – but both scenarios are quite possible.

    – hp

  292. HP, there you go again – quoting science at us.

    Scientists are all just pimping for grants. You can’ t trust a word they say.

    If you want the truth, you have to listen to politicians, whose motives are pure. Like Sen. Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma :D

    (You can become very successful and sought after, just by telling people exactly what they want to hear.)

  293. HP, there you go again – quoting science at us.

    Yeah, I gotta watch doing that….

    As an addendum to what I said earlier, remember that events in one place can effect weather far far away. El Nino is the best example. It occurs in the tropical pacific, but has a big effect on weather in the US Midwest, thousands of miles away.

    High snowfall in the south might also be the result of things thousands of miles away.

  294. “HP, there you go again – quoting science at us.”-Greychin

    Wow. That’s rich. You do know that the last time Hippieprof was spouting off about the weather he was completely clueless about the weather in his own backyard. In fact, he was completely clueless about Illinois weather in his region throughout his entire lifetime. And yes, this was all part of his science.

    For Hippieprof to come on here and pretend like the Rabbit is some kind of “the world is flat” science denier is rich, and he knows why.

    Look, what if we didn’t question your science? The funny things is hippieprof was lecturing me about the infallibility of science and scientists about a week before it came out that they were forging data and hiding information from the world.

    Your science has been proven to be very flawed and at times down right fabricated.

    Is the Earth getting warmer?

    Maybe.

    Why? We don’t know.

    Whats will be the consequences? We don’t know.

  295. Congratulations Hippieprof. By introducing El Nino into the argument you have successfully proven that nature is the big culprit in the earth’s ever-changing climates.

    Because El Nino is not a man-made phenomena.

    So thank you for throwing science at us. Now you need to apply it.

    Now that we have that out of the way, you are free to continue your effort in figuring out how you are going to fine a volcano for going over its allowance of carbon emissions.

  296. “If you want the truth, you have to listen to politicians, whose motives are pure. Like Sen. Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma.”

    Or Al Gore?

    Last I checked, he wasn’t being called a scientist.

  297. “The debate over climate change would make a lot more sense if everyone involved would learn the difference between weather and climate.”

    It would also help if people learned the difference between facts and bullshit.

    It would help if anecdotal evidence from mountain climbers wasn’t being used as scientific study.

    It would help if research wasn’t being cherry-picked and scrubbed of data that doesn’t forward an agenda.

    Yeah, there’s lot of things that would help the debate over climate change.

  298. DR said: For Hippieprof to come on here and pretend like the Rabbit is some kind of “the world is flat” science denier is rich, and he knows why.

    Rabbit, I have never suggested that are some kind of flat-earther (Tex, I am not so sure about). Apologies if I have implied that.

    I do want to give my side of the “completely clueless about Illinois weather” issue. I did this once before, but perhaps it is forgotten.

    I made the claim that it doesn’t snow when it gets exceptionally cold, like 15 below.

    Rabbit did some research and found that the reported OFFICIAL temperatures in Illinois don’t get that low.

    I countered (and this is the part Rabbit forgets) that I am talking about observations I have made using home thermometers, or the ones on the bank, or the one in my car. Indeed, I have a very clear memory of driving home in -15 weather as registered by the thermometer in my car. If the official temp was a few degrees lower that day, so be it.

    None of this has anything to do with my assertion: It does not snow much when it is excessively cold. I don’t care if that is -15, or -10, or -8 or whatever. The observation holds.

    You realize, BTW, that the scientists supposedly caught falsifying data (supposedly revealed through stolen emails, which seems to bother nobody) have been exonerated, right?

    – hp

  299. Congratulations Hippieprof. By introducing El Nino into the argument you have successfully proven that nature is the big culprit in the earth’s ever-changing climates.

    Huck, wow, you really are smarter than that. I have proven nothing of the sort.

    El Nino is indeed a natural phenomenon. I never denied that.

    The existence of natural causes does not, in any way, rule out the possibility that there are also man-made causes. Use some logic.

    BTW – the reason I raised El Nino is that Rabbit was trying to claim heavy snowfall in the south somehow disproves the whole concept of warming. I was simply pointing out that heavy snowfall in the south in an El Nino year is predictable and hence does NOT disprove warming. The same is the case for any short-term seasonal variation.

  300. It rarely snows when the temperature drops below zero degrees Fahrenheit because the atmosphere is too stable. One of the ingredients for snow is enough lifting of saturated air that snow can develop aloft and fall to reach the surface. When it is said, “it is too cold to snow, “in reality it means there is not enough lifting of air to cause snow to reach the surface.

    http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/primer/winter/ww_basics.html#

    In Oklahoma, a little snow would feel really good right about now.

  301. “I made the claim that it doesn’t snow when it gets exceptionally cold, like 15 below.”-hippieprof

    Yes, you did make that claim. Fair enough.

    *Although even that claim seems pointless in a debate over if the Earth is warming on average a degree or two.

    **And, its also a little misleading: Very extreme cold often times causes less snow, but most of your run of the mill cold ass weather comes from a dry arctic blast from the Canadian prairie….the dryness being more of a location of the where the front comes from and not a consequence of the very cold weather in the first place).

    You also went on a little rant how on you just don’t get cold weather stretches of “yesteryear”.

    You were nostalgically waxing on about the cold winters of your childhood. In fact you claimed that you used to get these massive stretches of bitterly cold weather of way below zero.

    Of course, it was all a figment of your imagination. I don’t blame you for being off base on this. The Rabbit does the same shit all the time.

    What concerns me was that you used this anecdotal evidence as part of your whole global warming narrative. To put it simply, you were not being scientific when talking science. If you really want me to, I could find exactly what you said in the archives.

    It seems to me, you global warming types will use ALL weather patterns as evidence of global warming.

    It gets cold as shit in Georgia: Global Warming.

    It snows in Richmond: Global Warming

    Drought: Global Warming.

    You types are so hyper convinced of the theory, you hide, yes, hide!!!! data that doesn’t fit.

    And before those crazy snow storms, the running narrative was, “it never snows anymore becuase of Global Warming.

  302. “the reason I raised El Nino is that Rabbit was trying to claim heavy snowfall in the south somehow disproves the whole concept of warming.”

    It needs to be cold in the south for it to snow.

    So now, cold weather in the south is more evidence of Global Warming?

    If your trying to debunk my evidence of a lack of Global Warming by using the same unique snow storm that I used, both of us are probably being completely unscientific quacks.

    Fellow quack, get out of the way. The only contribution you can give is to shut up and not play a role in what is appearing to be a politicized culture in academia when it comes to this subject.

  303. Perhaps both DR and HP can agree that anecdotal evidence and isolated data points are no evidence at all – pro or con – on the subject of global climate change.

    Or maybe they can’t. Again, it has to do with the difference between weather and climate.

  304. Only in America!

    7 bucks and two generations later.

    Rabbit, hope the wedding went well yesterday.

    What you said reminded me of the short eulogy I delivered for my grandfather who died a couple of months ago. He was born into destitute poverty in Georgia 89 years ago. He died with a Cadillac and a beautiful home in the suburbs of Long Island. For those who are angered by what they perceive as my support of the “welfare state”, I did not get that from my family’s example. My Granddad worked in a factory for most of his life, eventually becoming a foreman. The only thing that ended his job was losing his right arm in a mattress cutting machine. He was told to sue. He refused saying it was his carelessness that lost him his arm. He recovered and worked as a community security guard for the rest of his life.

    In my eulogy I told the assembled that while we were mourning the loss of my grandfather, we should also be celebrating the American Dream. He lived it. No handouts, just hard work that took him from poverty to upper middle class comfort in 89 years.

    7 bucks and two generations later — I hear you!

  305. graychin said: Perhaps both DR and HP can agree that anecdotal evidence and isolated data points are no evidence at all – pro or con – on the subject of global climate change.

    I was about to post something quite similar to this myself. DR – I recognize your frustration. Every time it gets a little colder someone says “this is predicted by global warming!” and everytime it gets a bit warmer someone says “this is predicted by global warming!”

    In self-defense, I believe I was trying to combat just such thinking when we originally started this conversation, months ago.

    – hp

  306. R, thanks for asking. It went great. Although, we had to spend 4 hours in the limo between the mass and the reception. We went to Comercia Park and down town for pictures.

    My brother grew up with all these Albanians (He and my parents moved from where me and my other 3 brothers grew up). There were even a few dudes from the KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army) at the wedding.

    For Muslims, those guys can drink!

    By the time the limo arrived, we were all hammered and cursing the Serbs.

    So, after 9 beers and countless shots, I had to man up and give a speech. It started a little rough, but I kept it short and classy so I survived.

    I hardly ever get drunk, but when I do I always wake up and have this cringing feeling over my behavior. Not that I did anything particularly stupid, I just pretty much feel embarrassed by default.

  307. “In self-defense, I believe I was trying to combat just such thinking when we originally started this conversation, months ago.”-hippieprof

    Probably, but your mistake about the temps is the only thing I got on you where you are blatantly wrong so I will probably try to weave it into every conversation we ever have on this blog. :)

  308. fucking liberals…they can’t even say Happy Father’s Day without giving us a lecture on all the alternatives to a traditional family.

  309. DR – Who gave you a lecture today on the alternatives to a traditional family?

    I know – “fucking liberals” – but might you be just a bit more specific?

    Geez – a great wedding, a nice Father’s Day, and you’re STILL pissed off.

  310. The President did.

    The only thing that I’m actually a little real life angry about today is the new law taxing the fuck out of online tobacco products and forbidding them to be sent via postal service.

    I order this stuff from Sweden which is about the safest alternative to smoking on Earth. Haven’t smoked a cigarette in more then 2 and half years. It was cheap too!

    I knew it was just a matter of time until Nanny got involved.

  311. Obama apparently referenced families with two fathers in his remarks today. I suspect that is what DR is talking about.

    Happy Fathers day to all of you – including those transgendered folks who celebrated Mother’s Day last year….
    ;)

    – hp

  312. I don’t know why I think this and I’m probably dead wrong. But, greychin, for some reason, I picture you to be obese.

    I can honestly foresee the day when Nanny wants to punish you for your lack of exorcise.

    I am now prepared to be told how wrong I am.

  313. Some of us get really riled up at the thought of same-sex couples and want to blame “fucking liberals” for all of the world’s problems.

    So let me point out that on Father’s Day a lot of kids have “two fathers” to thank – the man who is married to Mom, and their biological father who lives apart. And sometimes (not always) the guy married to Mom is a much better father than the sperm donor is.

    Too fucking bad if talking about that form of “non-traditional family” offends somebody.

    DR, do you ALWAYS have such a chip on your shoulder?

    (And DR – no, I am not obese. I am in the top 10% of aerobic fitness for men my age. I wish I could still run like I did until I was about 60, but my knees and feet won’t take it any more. So I walk – a lot. Go fuck yourself.)

  314. including those transgendered folks who celebrated Mother’s Day last year….

    LOL … yup, we have to cover all the bases! Sometimes my heart does go out to Tex, Rabbit etal because life sure did seem simpler back in the day. Now you can’t be sure of anything, even if the woman you’re talking to once had a penis. :-)

    On that note, hope everyone had a Happy Father’s Day. If Tex does not reappear tomorrow, I may reach out privately to make sure his big screen TV didn’t fall on him.

  315. Now, now Gray. Rabbit’s just doing a little probing. Not sure why he pictures you as obese. I only picture you as old … and that’s cos you’ve said as much. But consider the difference between Rabbit and Tex before you tell old DR to f*ck himself: Rabbit said how he pictured you. Tex would have abandoned any conjecture and just called you a fat pig. Actually to be more accurate, Tex would have launched into his Hannibal Lecter mode and psychologically analyzed your eating habits and how they relate to the way your parents raised you. :-)

  316. Rabbit is not a smoker. He just sucks on tobacco packets (a less messy version of snuff) which will keep his lungs in good shape but cause his gums to fall out.

    As Roseanne Rosannadanna used to say, “it’s always something!”

  317. Rutherford, I can understand why Rabbit, Tex, Huck, the Ape, and BIC don’t like my opinions. (Did I forget anyone besides “dick” and Elric?) I can even understand why they don’t like ME personally.

    But why do they insist on making it so viciously personal? They could just tell me why I’m wrong, but that usually isn’t where they go.

    You’re right about one thing. If Rabbit is a jerk, then Tex is a jerk to a much higher order of magnitude. Have you ever encountered a more vicious, negative, sarcastic and downright hateful person? I don’t think I have.

    By the way – I am old. But I’m not THAT old. And Tex can confirm that I look a lot like Sean Connery – except that I still have a full head of hair.

  318. Tobacco packets? Complete with a spit cup? That’s really disgusting.

    Do you remember Walt Garrison, who was a running back for the Dallas Cowboys a long time ago? He was an Oklahoma State alum, and he did a TV commercial for Skoal or some other smokeless tobacco. His tag line was “just a pinch between cheek and gum,” spoken with a very thick Oklahoma twang.

    Anyway, smokeless tobacco became INSANELY popular in these parts at that time. All those assholes were going around with spit cups in their cars and even on their desks!

    Almost as disgusting as smoking. Not quite, but close.

  319. Graychin, what the hell are you talking about?

    All day you’ve been doing this. Claiming I say and do shit that I don’t say or do. It’s starting to annoy.

    And I had a great Father’s Day weekend. I got my B.A. in History Saturday morning, saw my teen favorite, Iron Maiden, in concert Saturday night. Then had lunch with my dad and sons this afternoon.

    I hope everyone else’s was equally enjoyable.

  320. Rutherford, Tex is alive and well – no need to worry about his TV falling on him. He is active over on Alfie’s blog, in full venom mode.

    Gray – I have been trying to figure Tex out for close to a year now, and I just don’t get it. He does indeed spew anger and venom and downright nastiness like nobody I have ever seen.

    For a while there this spring Tex and I had some reasonable conversations – then – WHOOOM!!!! – I said the wrong thing and I am back on his antichrist list. He hasn’t been back on my blog since. That doesn’t bother me to much – but what does bother me is that he insulted and chased away a couple of my regular contributors before he left.

    Rutherford knows him better than any of us – but my take is that Tex is a very insecure and very angry guy who feels life has somehow cheated him – and since you have to blame somebody it is all the fault of liberals. Academics must have really done something bad to him at one point because he has special hatred for us.

    Rabbit can be a jerk on occasion (as can we all) but he is a decent guy. The pre-wedding story he posted, for example, was thoughtful and thought provoking.

  321. Hmmmmmmmmm. Happy Father’s Day to all, hope you had a good weekend…

    Rahm Emanuel expected to quit White House

    “I would bet he will go after the midterms,” said a leading Democratic consultant in Washington. “Nobody thinks it’s working but they can’t get rid of him – that would look awful. He needs the right sort of job to go to but the consensus is he’ll go.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/7837686/Rahm-Emanuel-expected-to-quit-White-House.html

  322. Invisible stimulus

    “The stimulus program had very little stimulus,” says Allan Meltzer, Carnegie Mellon University political economy professor. Its largest item was a transfer to pay for state budget deficits, he explains, adding: “Transferring the deficit from the state to the federal budget doesn’t do much.”

    That relief for states was temporary; this year, as many as 300,000 teachers may be terminated for lack of funding.

    Public policy is supposed to be about fixing problems. To fix a problem, you must change people’s behavior.

    “The stimulus spent a lot of money, ran up the deficit and debt and, worst of all, generally did not change people’s behaviors,” says Jeff Brauer, Keystone College political science professor. “That’s bad public policy.”

    http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/zito/s_686743.html

  323. Wow, greychin. You are very thin skinned. I only pictured you as obese and admitted that I had no reason to do it. And I wasn’t even trying to be insulting.

    In fact, I really wasn’t making a statement about you in the first place, but if you can’t get that it doesn’t matter anyway.

    I will say one thing, you showed your hand with your heavy fisted reaction. That was weird, dude.

    Now I’m starting to think you are a former obese person and have lost all the weight but none of the insecurity.

    Anyways, sorry for messing with your personal awesomeness.

  324. It is as if the Administration wants to destroy its credibility.

    Obama’s blue ribbon panel of experts to investigate the oil rig disaster, yeah, well of the seven members a whopping 0 have oil expertise experience- let alone expertise- and only 1 has engineering experience…in optics and physics. Now, Ken ‘Boot on the Neck’ Salazar, among others in the WH, have compared this commission with that of the Challenger accident in 1986. Really? “The 13-member board that looked into the first shuttle accident had seven engineering and aviation experts and three other scientists. The 2003 board that looked into the Columbia shuttle disaster also had more than half of the panel with expertise in engineering and aviation.http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100620/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill_commission

    Besides, it already appears that they’ve come to their conclusion: oil is bad. Like so many other things that this administration has done, this is incredibly transparent, and not in the way the WH promised. They’ve essentially stacked the commission to come to the conclusion that the WH wants, which will invariably be used to push the Cap & Trade legislation that the WH wants. Can’t let a crisis go to waste now…

    Couple this with how many other brain dead actions this administration is doing, like their non-position on the Jones act.

    Jones Act: Maritime politics strain Gulf oil spill cleanup

    Maritime industry spokesmen say boat owners and longshoremen – who are tied to the AFL-CIO, one of Obama’s biggest union supporters – have no issue with waiving the act if US vessels can’t be found to do the job. Yet, “There are American vessels that are completely equipped to deal with this situation with no instructions to do anything,” Mark Ruge, who works with the Maritime Cabotage Task Force, tells Human Events blogger Robert B. Bluey.

    In testimony last week to Congress, Ken Wells, CEO of the Offshore Marine Service Association, said the oil spill response threatens to “degrade” the Jones Act, even though the dozen or so foreign boats currently on the scene have American crews.

    “We find that many of these vessels are blatantly ignoring the Jones Act,” Mr. Wells testified. “Worse, we find that the agency charged with enforcing the Jones Act has failed to live up to its responsibilities to enforce the law and to interpret the law as Congress intended.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0619/Jones-Act-Maritime-politics-strain-Gulf-oil-spill-cleanup

    And clearly the administration is concerned…I think.

    Rahm Emanuel spoke this weekend on the talk show circuit about how Tony Hayward will clearly not have a second career in PR, going over how bad their efforts have been thus far and using in particular his spending time on his yacht this weekend. Man, could these guys be any more two faced? Obama went to a baseball game Friday night and went golfing Sunday- his eighth golfing outing since the spill began. Wow, Obama tied Bush on golf outing in…wait for it…October 25, 2009. That’s all of Bush’s eight years in office to Obama’s 10 or so months.

    Here’s some advise for the administration: those that live in glass houses shouldn’t cast stones…

  325. Gorilla said: This can’t be good…for you! Seventy-one percent (71%) of U.S. Voters rate the government’s response to the Gulf oil leak as at least somewhat important in terms of how they will vote in November

    Yeah, probably not. Of course, I doubt that more than about 5 percent of them could actually describe the issues involved in dealing with the BP Gusher. Heck, I bet the majority of them couldn’t even find the Gulf on a map.

    What they really want is for Obama to wave a magic wand and have it all go away and they can go back to watching American Idol.

  326. This can’t be good…for you!

    Seventy-one percent (71%) of U.S. Voters rate the government’s response to the Gulf oil leak as at least somewhat important in terms of how they will vote in November, with 35% who say it is Very Important.

    Can’t be good for Democrats? I strongly disagree. Did the poll ask whether people are more approving of Obama’s getting a $20 billion down-payment on BP’s compensation payments for damages? Or of Joe Barton’s apology to BP.

    Barton would be chairman of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce if the Republicans should get control of Congress.

    Any initial discontent over Obama’s reaction to the Gulf Gusher has been more than offset by Republicans caught in the act of being themselves.

  327. Re: #417

    Fifteen foreign-flagged ships are at work on the Gulf Gusher. No Jones Act waivers have been obtained because none are required. The Jones Act applies to ships “carrying merchandise.”

    No ships have been turned away because of the Jones Act. None.

    The only foreign assistance that has been declined is that which was redundant.

    http://mediamatters.org/research/201006150033

  328. Did “Jones Act” recently go out in some conservative talking points email or something? There has been virtually no mention of it during this entire crisis, until the last 48 hours of so when BOOM every conservative blog is talking about it.

    Yeah… right…. and how many of those folks had ever heard of the Jones Act a week ago. I certainly hadn’t. I suspect about 3 percent of Americans had ever heard of it. Hell, even that is probably a generous estimate…..

  329. G-chin said, “Any initial discontent over Obama’s reaction to the Gulf Gusher has been more than offset by Republicans caught in the act of being themselves.”

    What planet are you on? I can’t tune the news in any format without hearing the incessant chatter about Obama’s poor response — well except for Mika this morning who can’t help but try to explain away any criticism of Obama. Nauseating as usual. And kind of like your comments here.

    I guess the whole country’s stupid for not seeing whatever salvation you’ve found in the dumb comment made by Hayward.

    The libs really lose it when they don’t have the backing of the media and approval for their attempts at populism.

  330. Rabbit, a mild apology to you for my going off on you. But I still don’t understand why so many of you “conservatives” insist on making things ugly and personal, and sometimes it just pisses me off. Unfortunately, you aren’t even the worst offender.

    No, I’m not a former fatty either. I’m just someone who has tried hard all his life to exercise and eat right because ALL of the men in my family have died too young from coronary heart disease. So when you speculated that I’m obese and don’t exercise, it hit me in the wrong spot.

    Skoal, Brother!

  331. “Gorilla, of course golf is an activity enjoyed my millions of middle class Americans. Yachting, not so much.”-hippieprof

    It is a huge difference? Seriously? Huge?

    Look, I’m not one of these guys bashing Obama for things like golf. About the only thing I find interesting is how quiet the leftist partisans are about it, considering the constant Bush/golf monitoring.

    Golf doesn’t have “middle class” connotations.

    When “middle class” people golf, part of the whole vibe is that they are defying class and enjoying a rich man’s game.

    Do middle class people golf? Of course, all the time. But it aint bowling.

    You guys have rose colored glasses on so strong that you can’t see the irony of the administration bashing that moron BP CEO for yachting while they themselves are on the back nine?

    Wow. The insecurities you only see by partisan cool aid drinkers is mind boggling.

    If Obama was my “guy” I would be cracking up, not making excuses by coming with arguments for golf’s place in the American in the middle class.

    I might be a hot head sometimes. But do you guys ever step back and see what you are doing. YOU ARE SHILLS!

  332. Hey, DR, I am obese, so feel free to direct your remarks to me instead, if you think it necessary.

    BTW – I would note that some corporations are already doing what you suspect the government may eventually do – that is, making weight an issue in performance evaluations – and I am not talking about businesses where body size of physical beauty actually makes a difference.

  333. I certainly hadn’t. I suspect about 3 percent of Americans had ever heard of it. Hell, even that is probably a generous estimate…..

    As a life-long resident of Land-locked Oklahoma, I’m no expert on maritime issues. But I confess anyway – I never heard of the Jones Act until last week sometime when every Republican on the Tube started whining about it.

    Tiger – we’ll just have to see how it plays out. Your comment only shows the myth of the left-wing media for what it is – a myth.

  334. DR said: Look, I’m not one of these guys bashing Obama for things like golf. About the only thing I find interesting is how quiet the leftist partisans are about it, considering the constant Bush/golf monitoring.

    I posted something longer about this yesterday on Alfie’s blog – and the abbreviated version I posted here missed a lot of what I said there.

    I think it is petty to complain when a President plays gold or something. It is not like he is out of contact, and it is not like he wouldn’t be notified immediately if a crisis were to break. Presidents need some relaxation, just like everyone else.

    This goes for all Presidents – so people who criticized Bush for doing similar things were just as petty.

    I did also note that from a PR standpoint Yachting is a lot worse than golf because golf is a sport enjoyed by millions of middle-class Americans. Yachting is generally an elitist activity, reserved for the very rich.

    Neither Obama nor Hayward were doing anything inappropriate – it is just that Hayward’s action are worse from a PR standpoint.

  335. Hey, I’m not exactly some skinny bitch myself, hippieprof.

    I can’t believe the urge for corporations/government to social engineer.

    Look at Rutherford’s knee jerk reaction when he mocks/judges my tobacco habit. (Which I don’t mind). He quietly gives license for a government to both get involved in my life and economically persecute me. (Which I do mind)

    Just wait 20 years from now. With the government completely knee deep in the medical details of all of us.

    Maybe you think you need Nanny’s help to lose weight.

    No doubt, the government could come up with some policy that would make you fit as a fiddle. But, kiss your soul good bye.

  336. Yeah, probably not. Of course, I doubt that more than about 5 percent of them could actually describe the issues involved in dealing with the BP Gusher. Heck, I bet the majority of them couldn’t even find the Gulf on a map. ” — HP

    God I love elitists!

    I guess you’ve not been paying attention to the voter turn out of late.

    Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle…I can’t wait for November!

  337. Goriilla…you notice the new elitist thing too? As Obama tanks to the point of being hated, all those hope and change people are now complete morons.

  338. Did “Jones Act” recently go out in some conservative talking points email or something? There has been virtually no mention of it during this entire crisis, until the last 48 hours of so when BOOM every conservative blog is talking about it.“– HP

    Some of us have been talking about it for a few weeks now.

  339. What they really want is for Obama to wave a magic wand and have it all go away and they can go back to watching American Idol.

    I like that!
    As for the Jones thing… I think people are being a little overly harsh. I guess I can refind the release from State but the Admin did indeed turn down international responses early on.

    here it is:

    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2010/06/143127.htm

    I think the money shot is that although these services/vessels are being offered they come with a cost. That indeed may be Jones-able.

  340. I have to say any number of coastal US city authorities have been talking about Jones etc. for years. Our ports and international projection is at a disadvantage due to it and its related leg.

  341. Pay czar …. cute.

    He is as independent on this fund as he was on the 9/11 fund established under Bush. If you don’t like the way that fund was administered, then you’ve probably got a valid gripe about this one.

    I must confess that the Jones Act did not just pop up within the past week. It has been bandied about for some time as an obstacle to accepting help from other countries, rightly or wrongly.

  342. Greychin…..just curious…why did you say “Skoal”? Are you Scandinavian?

    Not at all. Geez – you young guys missed out on a lot of excellent pop culture:

  343. For HP’s delusional enjoyment…

    Republicans’ Midterm Voting Enthusiasm Tops Prior Years

    PRINCETON, NJ — An average of 59% of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents have said they are more enthusiastic than usual about voting this year compared with past elections, the highest average Gallup has found in a midterm election year for either party since the question was first asked in 1994.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/140819/Republicans-Midterm-Voting-Enthusiasm-Tops-Prior-Years.aspx

  344. Back on an earlier topic – for me, the sooner that Rahm leaves the White House the better. There isn’t anything about the guy that I like.

    I think that Rahm has been largely responsible for Obama’s tendency to try for “bipartisanship” with people who had no desire to do anything but help Obama to fail in whatever he attempts.

    Both Rahm and Obama seem to have learned how futile that strategy is. But Rahm was supposed to bring extensive expertise in working with Congress to his job. That didn’t work out so well, plus he’s one of the most abrasive people on the planet.

  345. This is an honest question mostly for Rutherford and Graychin. The rest of you can join in too – but please don’t use it as an excuse to slam Obama. I am looking for an honest answer that goes a little deeper that “because he is a fuckup!”

    So, Obama apparently refused and offer from the Dutch to obtain sophisticated cleanup equipment. If that report is indeed true, why was the offer refused?

    I am having this conversation simultaneously on about 3 different conservative blogs – and I don’t have a good answer for it.

    – hp

  346. The best defense I could give would be that the size of the spill, as told by BP, was small enough that he felt that the aid wasn’t needed.

    The cynic in me says that he’s so arrogant and in the pocket of unions that he felt that he’d be attacked for using foreign ships.

    If I was a real conspiracy theorist, then I’d say he wanted the crisis to get really bad so that he could take advantage of the crisis to push Cap&Trade, back away from his off shore drilling position, and potentially leverage billions for political payouts.

    The truth of it, in my opinion, is that he didn’t really realize what the size and scope of the crisis was- regardless of what BP was saying- and since he had recently came out pushing for expanded off shore drilling, against his base mind you, that he thought it would be best to keep distance rather be actively involved. I honestly believe that the administration felt that the farther away they were from the crisis, the better they would be. Well, I think that calculus has proven to be incorrect.

    Contrary to what you might think, I don’t blast him just to blast him. I have fundamental issues with his actions, or lack thereof. I think when the administration truly came to understand the size and scope of the crisis, they realized that they were in a horrible position, and I think he was frozen with indecision on what to do. A lot of this is a result of his inexperience at any semblance of leadership.

    Listen, you just become a crisis management expert or leader. It takes time on the job, seeing what works, what doesn’t, and how to learn and adjust on the fly. You don’t get those skill sets in a campaign, or legally advising ACORN, or being a community organizer.

    I honestly believe this guy is in way over his head…

  347. Rabbit can correct me, but Gray I think the stuff Rabbit puts in his mouth does away with the mess and the spitting. I’m pretty sure the tobacco is in a pouch that lets the flavor through without the actual tobacco getting in your mouth. When you’re done, you just spit out the pouch (like you would a wad of gum). It still carries a warning about oral cancer if I’m not mistaken.

    As for refusing the Dutch help. I’m not as up on this as I’d like to be. I have heard two excuses. One, the Jones Act and two, an “air traffic control” analogy … namely that there are so many vessels already in the Gulf that bringing in any large tankers would be dangerous.

    Again, I haven’t stayed on top of this angle of the story. My own suspicion has been that as independent dumb-ass Americans we simply do not solicit nor accept help from other countries. But that is my gut talking, not the facts of the case.

  348. Rabbit, have you seen the ads for Camel Snus in the magazines? Really bizarre. The ads do not discuss the product in any way shape or form. Always some strange marketing message with a health warning at the bottom and the Camel logo at the top of the page. If you didn’t recognize the logo or already know what Snus was, you’d be totally confused.

  349. So, Obama apparently refused and offer from the Dutch to obtain sophisticated cleanup equipment. If that report is indeed true, why was the offer refused?

    Apparently the charge is that “The Obama administration declined the Dutch offer partly because of the Jones Act, which restricts foreign ships from certain activities in U.S. waters. During the Hurricane Katrina crisis five years ago, the Bush administration waived the Jones Act in order to facilitate some foreign assistance, but such a waiver was not given in this case.

    Partly? What was the other part?

    In any case, it simply isn’t true.

    http://dc.the-netherlands.org/News/Press_Releases/Dutch_Assistance_in_the_Gulf_of_Mexico_Oil_Spill

    http://mediamatters.org/research/201006150033

    You won’t win a “he said, she said” argument with those clowns. If you ask them for more specifics about alleged blocking of Dutch aid, they are unlikely to be able to provide them. And it’s pretty hard to refute a charge when the specifics of the charge are not given.

  350. “There has been virtually no mention of it during this entire crisis, until the last 48 hours of so when BOOM every conservative blog is talking about it.”

    You don’t know what you are talking about.

    June 8

    June 11

    June 12

    There’s more but I didn’t want this to go to spam because of links.

    Next time don’t assume that nobody else knows something just because you don’t.

    Also, so much for that “unprecedented in western civilization” crap we were hearing about Fox News being a party mouthpiece.

  351. If you ask them for more specifics about alleged blocking of Dutch aid, they are unlikely to be able to provide them. — Chin

    Put your money where your fat mouth is, when did we start using the Dutch aid? Your Dutch press release is dated 17 June. Your mediamatters (crap/biased site if ever there was one) can’t get any closer than say 10 June. But the facts are these:

    The Dutch first offered to fly their skimmer arm systems to the Gulf just a few days after the oil spill started.[Gorilla: 3 days to be specific.] However, the offer was declined by EPA officials, who cited restrictions agains pumping any water with oil in it into the ocean (no matter how much oil was removed, no matter the overall environmental gain, in the process). No system can keep all the oily water in the ship.

    http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/6072778-us-finally-permits-dutch-skimmers-to-help-bp-oil-spill

    The accident occurred on 20 April, so on 23 April the Dutch offered assistance and were rejected. That leaves the last week of April, the month of May, and a week or so in June.

    But who’s counting…

  352. We don’t have sympathy for BP, however, we also recognize that we have a thing called due process.

    Playing Politics vs. Fighting the Spill

    Thuggery is unattractive. Ineffective thuggery even more so.

    Finally, there’s the $20 billion escrow fund that Obama pried out of the BP treasury at the White House when he talked for the first time, 57 days after the rig exploded, with BP Chairman Tony Hayward. It’s pleasing to think that those injured by BP will be paid off speedily, but House Republican Joe Barton had a point, though an impolitic one, when he called this a “shakedown.”

    For there already are laws in place that ensure that BP will be held responsible for damages, and the company has said it will comply. So what we have is government transferring property from one party, an admittedly unattractive one, to others, not based on pre-existing laws but on decisions by one man, pay czar Kenneth Feinberg.

    Feinberg gets good reviews from everyone. But the Constitution does not command “no person … shall … be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law except by the decision of a person as wise and capable as Kenneth Feinberg.” The Framers stopped at “due process of law.”

    Obama doesn’t. “If he sees any impropriety in politicians ordering executives about, upstaging the courts and threatening confiscation, he has not said so,” write the editors of The Economist, who then suggest that markets see Obama as “an American version of Vladimir Putin.” Except that Putin is an effective thug.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/06/21/playing_politics_vs_fighting_the_spill.html

  353. So, Gorilla, you know that Exxon Valdez is still in court, right? Is that what you want? Years and years of delays in court holding up payments?

    Obama was a genius to get the 20 billion up front. Give him his due.

  354. Would do all, but especially the lefties, some good to read this.

    Crisis Economics

    But a great deal of recent economic evidence calls that conclusion into question. In an ironic twist, one key piece comes from Christina Romer, who is now chair of Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers. About six months before she took the job, Romer teamed up with her husband and fellow Berkeley economist David Romer to write a paper (“The Macroeconomic Effects of Tax Changes”) that sought to measure the influence of tax policy on GDP. Crucial to the Romers’ method was their effort to identify changes in tax policy made during times of relative economic stability, and driven by a desire to influence economic behavior or activity (to encourage growth, say, or reduce a deficit), rather than those changes made in response to a recession or crisis. By studying such “exogenous” tax-policy changes, the Romers could be more confident that they were in fact measuring the effects of taxes and not those of extraneous conditions.

    The Romers’ conclusion, which is at odds with most traditional Keynesian analysis, was that the tax multiplier was 3 — in other words, that every dollar spent on tax cuts would boost GDP by $3. This would mean that the tax multiplier is roughly three times larger than Obama’s advisors assumed it was during their policy simulations.

    Of course, it could be that all multipliers are larger than previously assumed. Perhaps fiscal policy has such a great influence over our economy that, if the tax multiplier is 3, the government-spending multiplier is 4 or 5. We don’t know from the Romers’ study; they did not analyze government-spending multipliers, only tax multipliers. But several studies on government-spending multipliers have been conducted using techniques similar to those used by the Romers. And none has found government-spending multipliers to be so large as to justify assumptions about the inherent superiority of government spending over tax cuts.

    Some excellent work on this topic has come from Valerie Ramey of the University of California, San Diego. Ramey finds a government-spending multiplier of about 1.4 — a figure close to what the Obama administration assumed, but much smaller than the tax multiplier identified by the Romers. Similarly, in recent research, Andrew Mountford (of the University of London) and Harald Uhlig (of the University of Chicago) have used sophisticated statistical techniques that try to capture the complicated relationships among economic variables over time; they conclude that a “deficit-financed tax cut is the best fiscal policy to stimulate the economy.” In particular, they report that tax cuts are about four times as potent as increases in government spending.

    Perhaps the most compelling research on this subject is a very recent study by my colleagues Alberto Alesina and Silvia Ardagna at Harvard. They used data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development to identify every major fiscal stimulus adopted by the 30 OECD countries between 1970 and 2007. Alesina and Ardagna then separated those plans that were in fact followed by robust economic growth from those that were not, and compared their characteristics. They found that the stimulus packages that appeared to be successful had cut business and income taxes, while those that evidently did not succeed had increased government spending and transfer payments.

    The data in the Alesina-Ardagna study are mostly European; only a small portion comes from the United States. But the evidence leads to conclusions that are very similar to those from Mountford and Uhlig’s work using American data. These conclusions are also consistent with the work of Ramey and the Romers, which looked at the historical record to identify multipliers. There appears to be a growing body of evidence, then, suggesting that taxes may be a better tool for fiscal stimulus than conventional models have indicated.

    http://nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/crisis-economics

  355. Big tobacco wants snus to fail. They have engineered products that purposely suck. You do Camel Snus and the only thing you think of is “damn I want a Camel cigarette.”

    It’s not real.

    Real snus is a much safer cigarette replacement. It is steam cured instead of fire cured and has 98% less carcinogens then dip and cigarettes. It’s ingredients have to be listed and food grade. You can only get it in Sweden.

    It’s an option that doctors should be talking to patients about that could save millions of lives.

    Lets face it, many people don’t quit nicotine. I’ve been hooked on nicotine since I was 11. I always failed. Am I weak? Yes. I also have a damaged brain from being addicted so early. (By the way, I don’t blame anyone for myself getting hooked so early. I was fully aware of the ramifications when I was 11 and vividly remember that). Now I manage it rationally and dare I say enjoyably. The thing is, I shouldn’t have to even explain what I do to anyone in the government when it comes to my body as long as I’m not hurting someone else. I shouldn’t be picked out and unfairly taxed.

    For the most part, Swedes don’t smoke, they snus. They have lowest mouth cancer rates in Europe. They almost dropped out of the EU over snus. The EU is so stupid they outlawed smokeless tobacco. Snus being a part of Swedish culture, they were made an exception due to their threats of taking their ball and going home.

    The stuff aint perfect, but it might literally be 98% safer then smoking.

    I haven’t smoked a cigarette in 2 and half years. I can feel the difference cardiovascularly and I get no heart burn like I used to from dip.

    Try explaining this to the dumb ass government. Tax fiends and social engineer teetotalers.

  356. HP, where ARE your scupples? :D

    Ape, would it be asking too much for you to provide me with a news source that I’ve actually heard of for particulars on US refusal of Dutch aid?

    The only source quoted in the article you linked is hearsay from someone named Yobie Benjamin. Who is Yobie Benjamin. Is he credible?

    “I read it on the internet” is not a “source.”

  357. Huck … sorry dude but I had to chuckle. You posted three links and said you wouldn’t post more cos you didn’t want to go into moderation …. and then you closed with another link that sent you into moderation! :-D

  358. Gorila…you nailed it perfectly. Obama wanted nowhere near this crisis for the first month. He only stepped up to the mic when he thought the thing was about to be plugged. Hell, even on his dumb ass prime time speech he still wanted the Obama brand to be attached to plugging the motherfucker. Hence his lie about it being plugged in a “few days”. Total bullshit.

    He basically made the following calculation:

    “I’m screwed if this thing doesn’t get plugged no matter what. The best thing I can do is hide and hope it gets plugged. No sense smearing the Obama brand if it ends up being no big deal.”

    Unfortunately, his political slithering hurt the country.

  359. You are such a fucking farse. So what, now you denying that they refused foreign aid?

    Pathetic. If only you lived up to the standards you expect from others…

    Obama blocked clean-up of BP oil spill by America’s allies; Failed to issue timely Jones Act waiver

    http://www.examiner.com/x-7812-DC-SCOTUS-Examiner~y2010m6d14-Obama-blocked-cleanup-of-BP-oil-spill-by-Americas-allies-Failed-to-issue-needed-Jones-Act-waiver

    Ship of fools

    http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Ship+fools/3144616/story.html

    Obama criticized over spill aid rejection
    During the course of the crisis, the White House received 21 other aid offers from 17 countries and international groups, State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said.

    However, the Obama administration declined all offers.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=130514&sectionid=3510203

  360. Rutherford, great stuff. From the miserable and angry failure. :smile:

    You go off for vacation three days, and come back to see that Hippie has shamed me into oblivion (not possible) and believes my guilt may have driven me away (or was that Rutherford?), Graychin thinks I’m mean (if he didn’t before, he surely will now as of today), and Rutherford believes the Big Screen fell on me.

    Nope, not so lucky, though I did painfully twist the tibio-fibular again skiing. In reading my response to Hippie, I believe I could have done better than that. I will push the envelope a little further next time for greater effect. :smile: I think I’ve made it abundantly clear of my use of indoctrinating professors – a million little Mogadishu and Little Eichmann types.

    It was Father’s Day weekend and the family was home. I know this will come as a shock to many, but if my lovely wife were in Oklahoma, or my friends didn’t have to work while I resided with my laptop on my lap in front of the TV, or even if I could get the weather to cooperate today, I would not be on the internet with such regularity usually. I am well past the state of boredom.

    In fact, since our useful idiot for President took over, I have often found myself wondering exactly how healthy is it to be on the internet 6-8 hours a day reading how badly he is mucking up the world.

    But Rutherford, you do make me giggle. Where I have little patience with propagandists like Hippie, absolutely abhor lying sacks of useless shit like Graychin and would rid the world of him if I could legally figure out how, and think guys like Curator on the bleeding edge of sanity, for some reason, I’m willing to cut you a little more slack.

    Afraid you haven’t gotten rid of me just yet – by association, guilt, or otherwise. Please note, there are no lines I won’t step over when it comes to liberals. :smile:

    I did share a bit of misery on a few other blogs late during the weekend from a lake near (speed sucked) – and I always check BiC’s blog for excellent content, so I left Grayshit a present for the weekend on another blog. I tried to reach yours Rutherford, but it was taking forever to load. I have noticed the performance of your blog slowly down to a degree lately. Perhaps the number of comments?

    Nothing major old friend. Hope you had a nice Father’s Day.

  361. OH, She’s a Democrat! :lol:

    South Carolina’s unexpected Democratic nominee for the US Senate, mystery man Alvin Greene, says he wants to play golf with Barack Obama. But in Texas, another surprise Democratic primary winner, congressional nominee Kesha Rogers, wants to impeach the President. So while South Carolina party officials are still unsure of what to do about Greene’s success at the ballot box, Texas Democrats have no such reservations — they wasted little time in casting Rogers into exile and offering no support or recognition of her campaign to win what once was Republican Majority Leader Tom DeLay’s old seat.

    Rogers, 33, told TIME she is a “full time political activist” in the Lyndon LaRouche Youth Movement, a recruiting arm of the LaRouche political organization that is active on many college campuses. The LYM espouses LaRouche opposition to free trade and “globalism” (the UN, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund) and it also calls for a return to a humanist classical education, emphasizing the works of Plato and Leibnitz. On her professional looking campaign website, kesharogers.com, she touts the LaRouche political philosophy — a mix of support for the economic policies of President Franklin D. Roosevelt (Gray like :twisted:) and the impeachment of President Obama — and calls Obama a “London and Wall Street backed puppet” whose policies will destroy the Democratic Party.
    :smile: – Also this…

    During the campaign, she was photographed carrying an oversized portrait of the President with a Hitler-style moustache penciled on his lip.

    As those of us who have attended the Tea Party rallies and followed the movement know, it’s been the LaRouchies all along who have brought the Obama-as-Nazi posters along. The media, however, insisted on tarring the entire movement with those posters rather than report on their actual origin. I wonder whether they’ll be inclined to treat the Democratic Party the same — and in this case, Rogers won an election among Democrats based in part on that campaign imagery.

    This almost reads like a work of Troofer conviction.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2010/06/21/texas-congressional-nominee-wants-to-impeach-obama-opposes-un/

    ** GUFFAW **

  362. Tex, glad to see you didn’t suffer death-by-flatscreen.

    Nah, picapp ain’t the problem, it’s the 400+ comments. I’ll have a new thread going tonight or tomorrow.

  363. I don’t know Rutherford. I thought at first too as I said it was just the number of comments. But I went to other shorter threads as a test, and it was equally slow.

    I could be wrong but even your home page seems to be loading much more slowly – but only most of the time. It is considerably faster at this minute.

    Whatever – just thought you’d want to know.

    I suppose it could be Cox screwing me. :wink:

  364. Ape @ #466 said:

    You are such a fucking farse. So what, now you denying that they refused foreign aid?

    I’m not denying anything. Hippie Prof asked for some help on the “refused foreign aid” talking point, and I was trying to figure out what the specifics of the charges are. I haven’t checked out your latest links yet, but nothing I have seen before today does anything but make allegations without specifics.

    Why so angry?

  365. Write about this, Rutherford…

    Turns out the Obama Administration had repeated warnings about issues on the Deepwater Horizon months before it exploded.

    On Feb. 13, BP told the minerals service it was trying to seal cracks in the well about 40 miles (64 kilometers) off the Louisiana coast, drilling documents obtained by Bloomberg show. Investigators are still trying to determine whether the fissures played a role in the disaster.
    ….
    On March 10, BP executive Scherie Douglas e-mailed Frank Patton, the mineral service’s drilling engineer for the New Orleans district, telling him: “We’re in the midst of a well control situation.”

    I wonder if the problem that arose in February could have been avoided with a January inspection?

    ABC News has learned that in the 16 months from January 2009 through April 2010 MMS failed to inspect Deepwater Horizon four times – in May 2009, August 2009, December 2009, and January 2010.

    But that is probably unlikely, since the rig continued to pass MMS inspection at the same time MMS was being told it was having major issues.

    Inspections were carried out in February, March, and April of this year.

    Would any Obama supporters care to defend this?

  366. I can’t defend it, because I think that we all know by now that the Minerals Management Service is a cesspool, populated by corrupt incompetents and total sellouts to the extraction industries.

    I fault the Obama Administration for not being aggressive enough in cleaning up the MMS from their first day in office.

  367. So the Obama Administration should share a portion of the blame, seeing as it is a very real possibility that it could have averted this disaster had it done its job in managing the MMS.

    Do you disagree with that assessment?

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